Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
October 15, 2023
Arnaud Bertrand – How Israel Stepped Into A Trap

by Arnaud Bertrand
(Republished with the author's permission)

One of the more interesting arguments I've been seeing A LOT on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is: "Hamas undoubtedly predicted Israel's massive retaliation, that makes them all the more guilty for sacrificing Palestinian lives".

What people don't realize is that the fact this reaction – the massive collective punishment – was indeed immensely predictable says just as much about Israel than it does about Hamas.

It says a lot about Israel for 3 reasons. 1) It says a lot about Israel's image that it was expected to react with massive collective punishment, violating international law. 2) It also says a lot about Israel's inability to think strategically that it would react in exactly the way its adversary predicted it to. Revenge is not a strategy, in fact it is the opposite of strategic. And, lastly 3) it says a lot that Israel doesn't seem to have learned a thing from the US's immense mistakes in its post 9-11 response.

Yes, of course, it also says a lot about Hamas, because they knew their actions would undoubtedly cause untold suffering on their own people (on top of the suffering they caused with the attacks). No question there.

This looks to be, unfortunately, a competition for whom can gain the most sympathy from the outside world for their suffering. And from where I am standing, Israel is losing big time by playing into the hand of its adversary. Even Europe – Europe! – is on the verge today of breaking ranks with a full-on revolt at the highest levels of the bureaucracy against Von Der Leyen for her unqualified support for Israel. This is on top of renewed support for the Palestinian cause by the Muslim world, and generally the entire global South (with the notable exception of India, who pretty much runs on Islamophobia today under Modi).

I'm going to go out on a limb here and hypothesize that this was Hamas, as an organization, committing suicide for the Palestinian cause. Hamas undoubtedly won't survive this, it's pretty clear. And sadly thousands of innocent lives will be lost. But they've focused the entire global conversation on their topic and Israel's reaction is making Palestinians win the sympathy war.

What should Israel have done instead? Well, they should have recognized which war Hamas was baiting them into. Not a war against them per se, but a war for hearts and minds. They missed the forest for the trees. Which is stunning because they started with the upper hand, by far. They could have used the initial attacks to rally immense support, declare a period of mourning, unify much of the world around the just cause of not killing innocent civilians. Instead, they started doing so in turn, on an even grander scale: so far they've killed 614 children and 370 women. It's an unfathomable and immensely consequential mistake.

This war also reveals something interesting, and I'll end with this. It reveals how much power and influence the wider West has lost in driving the global conversation. Remember post 9-11, when the US had much the same overaction as Israel today by invading Afghanistan? At the time we didn't hear any significant opposition. It was there for sure but it was inaudible. Today by contrast it is so overwhelming that even Europe – Europe! – feels compelled to dissent. Which of course they'd never do out of pure morality, they do so because they have their back against the wall, in their words they "don't want to lose the global South", which wasn't even remotely a factor back in 2001. Heck we just saw that the US asked China – China! – to "use its influence to push for calm in the Middle-East": this would have been absolutely unthinkable 22 years ago, what better proof that they themselves lost their influence? Influence ironically lost for the very reason that they overreacted 22 years ago: how ironical that they'd ask for China's help today in supporting yet another overaction, they really can't help themselves …

(Original text)

Comments

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 15 2023 13:07 utc | 56
No not American. Slavic blood.

Posted by: heavymetal101 | Oct 15 2023 15:45 utc | 201

Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 15 2023 13:07 utc | 56
No not American. Slavic blood.

Posted by: heavymetal101 | Oct 15 2023 15:45 utc | 202

Hamas is merely a catalyst.
@ Arch Bungle | Oct 15 2023 12:39 utc | 45

Spot on. Merely pebbles tapping downhill at the start of a landslide. And they know it.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Oct 15 2023 15:46 utc | 203

Hamas is merely a catalyst.
@ Arch Bungle | Oct 15 2023 12:39 utc | 45

Spot on. Merely pebbles tapping downhill at the start of a landslide. And they know it.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Oct 15 2023 15:46 utc | 204

b revealed in an earlier thread that 3/4 of the troops normally found at the Gaza border were moved away
after Israel had received repeated intelligence that something big was imminent in Gaza.
I have struggled to find a source for the “3/4”.
Surprisingly, the closest I have come is from, of all places, Reuters.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

‘HUGE FAILURE’
A commando unit attacked the Israeli army’s southern Gaza headquarters and jammed its communications, preventing personnel from calling commanders or each other, the source said.
The final part involved moving hostages to Gaza, mostly achieved early in the attack, the source close to Hamas said.
In one well-publicised hostage taking, fighters abducted party-goers fleeing a rave near the kibbutz of Re’im near Gaza. Social media footage showed dozens of people running through fields and on a road as gunshots were heard.
“How could this party happen this close (to Gaza)?” the Israeli security source said.
The Israeli security source said Israeli troops were below full strength in the south near Gaza because some had been redeployed to the West Bank to protect Israeli settlers following a surge of violence between them and Palestinian militants.
“They (Hamas) exploited that,” the source said.
Dennis Ross, a former Middle East negotiator who is now at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said Israel had been distracted by violence in the West Bank, leading to a “thin, under-prepared presence in the south.”

On another note, one should pause after reading the first sentence.

A commando unit attacked the Israeli army’s southern Gaza headquarters and jammed its communications, preventing personnel from calling commanders or each other, the source said.

Why do we just accept what the IDF is telling us. Come on.
If it was indeed an intentional security failure (a tactic used to precipitate the 2006 invasion of Lebanon by Israel)
then the cover story stories were written ahead of time by the IDF.
Who says that Hamas was successful in disrupting communication…….wait for it……the IDF.

Posted by: librul | Oct 15 2023 15:48 utc | 205

b revealed in an earlier thread that 3/4 of the troops normally found at the Gaza border were moved away
after Israel had received repeated intelligence that something big was imminent in Gaza.
I have struggled to find a source for the “3/4”.
Surprisingly, the closest I have come is from, of all places, Reuters.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/how-israel-was-duped-hamas-planned-devastating-assault-2023-10-08/

‘HUGE FAILURE’
A commando unit attacked the Israeli army’s southern Gaza headquarters and jammed its communications, preventing personnel from calling commanders or each other, the source said.
The final part involved moving hostages to Gaza, mostly achieved early in the attack, the source close to Hamas said.
In one well-publicised hostage taking, fighters abducted party-goers fleeing a rave near the kibbutz of Re’im near Gaza. Social media footage showed dozens of people running through fields and on a road as gunshots were heard.
“How could this party happen this close (to Gaza)?” the Israeli security source said.
The Israeli security source said Israeli troops were below full strength in the south near Gaza because some had been redeployed to the West Bank to protect Israeli settlers following a surge of violence between them and Palestinian militants.
“They (Hamas) exploited that,” the source said.
Dennis Ross, a former Middle East negotiator who is now at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said Israel had been distracted by violence in the West Bank, leading to a “thin, under-prepared presence in the south.”

On another note, one should pause after reading the first sentence.

A commando unit attacked the Israeli army’s southern Gaza headquarters and jammed its communications, preventing personnel from calling commanders or each other, the source said.

Why do we just accept what the IDF is telling us. Come on.
If it was indeed an intentional security failure (a tactic used to precipitate the 2006 invasion of Lebanon by Israel)
then the cover story stories were written ahead of time by the IDF.
Who says that Hamas was successful in disrupting communication…….wait for it……the IDF.

Posted by: librul | Oct 15 2023 15:48 utc | 206

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 15 2023 13:55 utc | 71
Incredible news for the people of Palestine.
I’ve read a couple reports that seem to suggest that the Zionists have refused to reopen water to the northern regions of Gaza and has been destroying water infrastructure there simultaneously. Perhaps to force Gazan residents of those areas to move south. If so, they have not given up on their prime objective.

Posted by: warxism | Oct 15 2023 15:48 utc | 207

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 15 2023 13:55 utc | 71
Incredible news for the people of Palestine.
I’ve read a couple reports that seem to suggest that the Zionists have refused to reopen water to the northern regions of Gaza and has been destroying water infrastructure there simultaneously. Perhaps to force Gazan residents of those areas to move south. If so, they have not given up on their prime objective.

Posted by: warxism | Oct 15 2023 15:48 utc | 208

@Posted by: warxism | Oct 15 2023 15:48 utc | 104
Ethnic Cleansing

Posted by: librul | Oct 15 2023 15:49 utc | 209

@Posted by: warxism | Oct 15 2023 15:48 utc | 104
Ethnic Cleansing

Posted by: librul | Oct 15 2023 15:49 utc | 210

Add to that the fact that its what the elite in the West think that matters, what the man in the street thinks matters not one bit whatsoever.
Posted by: gT | Oct 15 2023 12:46 utc | 48
On behalf of the man on the street: you’re a myopic elitist who has swallowed the elite propaganda hook line and sinker. There are no global elites on MOA, so should b just close up shop and we can all idiotically wait to see what the elites have in store?
What happens historically to the “men on the street” when they can no longer live in the old way? A shocking turn of events, like a 6 year car accident, has impacted masses of people globally. They are now moving out of that period of shock and surveying the situation. What comes in the next 6 years will look nothing like the status quo ante. You, like the insane political elite of the west, are hopelessly stuck in the 90s.
Read some history and talk to some of those men on the street before you bend the knee so readily to the global elite, gt.
The anger and opposition is there. All that’s lacking is leadership and an organization. One can be part of the solution or part of the problem. With your misanthropic attitude you’re certainly the latter.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 15 2023 15:51 utc | 211

Add to that the fact that its what the elite in the West think that matters, what the man in the street thinks matters not one bit whatsoever.
Posted by: gT | Oct 15 2023 12:46 utc | 48
On behalf of the man on the street: you’re a myopic elitist who has swallowed the elite propaganda hook line and sinker. There are no global elites on MOA, so should b just close up shop and we can all idiotically wait to see what the elites have in store?
What happens historically to the “men on the street” when they can no longer live in the old way? A shocking turn of events, like a 6 year car accident, has impacted masses of people globally. They are now moving out of that period of shock and surveying the situation. What comes in the next 6 years will look nothing like the status quo ante. You, like the insane political elite of the west, are hopelessly stuck in the 90s.
Read some history and talk to some of those men on the street before you bend the knee so readily to the global elite, gt.
The anger and opposition is there. All that’s lacking is leadership and an organization. One can be part of the solution or part of the problem. With your misanthropic attitude you’re certainly the latter.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 15 2023 15:51 utc | 212

Both Bertrand and b did not consider the following scenario:
The Israeli air force “mistakenly” bombs the 15 km long Egyptian border walls and fences on multiple places thus enabling a way out for the Gazans to safety and join their Arab Muslim “family”. Filming and broadcasting this Islamic brotherhood’s hypocritical dilemma, let them out / in makes Islam’s hypocritical picture clear to western woke abroad.
Lots of hostages there, more in the order of 1 or 2 million Gazans under Hamas. The few Israelis etc. kidnapped are peanuts it this case.

Posted by: Antonym | Oct 15 2023 15:53 utc | 213

Both Bertrand and b did not consider the following scenario:
The Israeli air force “mistakenly” bombs the 15 km long Egyptian border walls and fences on multiple places thus enabling a way out for the Gazans to safety and join their Arab Muslim “family”. Filming and broadcasting this Islamic brotherhood’s hypocritical dilemma, let them out / in makes Islam’s hypocritical picture clear to western woke abroad.
Lots of hostages there, more in the order of 1 or 2 million Gazans under Hamas. The few Israelis etc. kidnapped are peanuts it this case.

Posted by: Antonym | Oct 15 2023 15:53 utc | 214

This analysis is irrelevant.
If Israel had showed the kind of restraint he’s calling for, it would now be in a multi-front war because Hezbollah and Palestinians groups in the West Bank would take advantage to do the same. It’s wishful thinking to try to apply Western concepts to the middle-eastern cultural sphere.
Israel was attacked because in the Middle-East language, peace in only achieved by the mighty (pax romana type) and goodwill gestures are only offered by the weak. Sadate offered peace to Israel because he had exhausted his military options. As the weaker side, he proposed peace.
For 30 years, Israel has been on a goodwill gestures pathway (Oslo, Oslo II, Wye plantation, Olmerts peace agreement proposal, Barak’s peace agreement proposal, South Lebanon withdrawal, Gaza withdrawal) that lead to more and more violence and not more and more peace. On the other side, the increasing violence responses were not met with a crushing blow. Well before this unprecedented attack by Hamas, Israelis have been accustomed to live under regular missile attacks. 20 years ago, it would have been a reason to go to war. In 2006, Israel went to war against Hezbollah for a cross-border attack on an army jeep. But now, Israel is attacked a few times a year from Lebanon and there are regular outbursts of missiles coming from Gaza. It would be unthinkable.
If Israel did not give a crushing blow to Hamas now, that would be the end of Israel because Hezbollah would learn from this that they could launch a surprise attack when they see fit, an attack that would be much more powerful, with ground invasion and raining precision-missiles, as they already announced, and they would not be wiped out.
The name of the game in the region is deterrence. Israel’s deterrence was almost non existent. The Hamas attack is both a proof of that and a way to shatter the last illusions of the Israeli deterrent.
The Israeli reaction is the only way to restore deterrence. If not, tell us what else could restore such deterrence.
I understand that pro-palestinians do not like what’s happening now. However, there is no other way to build deterrence.
By the way, this Hamas attack definitely killed the 2 state solution. Most of the Israeli public was already skeptic about it after:
-30 years without a single real peace achievement to celebrate apart territory handover from their side
-more terror attacks than before the Oslo era
-30 year of hateful education system by the PLO
Now, with this attack, there is no way the Israeli population will consent to do harakiri. Everyone understands there that if the same had happenned from a Palestinian state in the West Bank, there would be no more state of Israel.
That’s basically what the israeli right has been arguing for 30 years and they have now been proven right.
The only solution which as some potential to work is the Palestinian emirates proposal from Mordekhai Kedar.
Now that Hamas will probably be wiped out of Gaza, the rule should be handed over to the most poweful tribe(s) in the Gaza Strip.

Posted by: roberto187 | Oct 15 2023 15:59 utc | 215

This analysis is irrelevant.
If Israel had showed the kind of restraint he’s calling for, it would now be in a multi-front war because Hezbollah and Palestinians groups in the West Bank would take advantage to do the same. It’s wishful thinking to try to apply Western concepts to the middle-eastern cultural sphere.
Israel was attacked because in the Middle-East language, peace in only achieved by the mighty (pax romana type) and goodwill gestures are only offered by the weak. Sadate offered peace to Israel because he had exhausted his military options. As the weaker side, he proposed peace.
For 30 years, Israel has been on a goodwill gestures pathway (Oslo, Oslo II, Wye plantation, Olmerts peace agreement proposal, Barak’s peace agreement proposal, South Lebanon withdrawal, Gaza withdrawal) that lead to more and more violence and not more and more peace. On the other side, the increasing violence responses were not met with a crushing blow. Well before this unprecedented attack by Hamas, Israelis have been accustomed to live under regular missile attacks. 20 years ago, it would have been a reason to go to war. In 2006, Israel went to war against Hezbollah for a cross-border attack on an army jeep. But now, Israel is attacked a few times a year from Lebanon and there are regular outbursts of missiles coming from Gaza. It would be unthinkable.
If Israel did not give a crushing blow to Hamas now, that would be the end of Israel because Hezbollah would learn from this that they could launch a surprise attack when they see fit, an attack that would be much more powerful, with ground invasion and raining precision-missiles, as they already announced, and they would not be wiped out.
The name of the game in the region is deterrence. Israel’s deterrence was almost non existent. The Hamas attack is both a proof of that and a way to shatter the last illusions of the Israeli deterrent.
The Israeli reaction is the only way to restore deterrence. If not, tell us what else could restore such deterrence.
I understand that pro-palestinians do not like what’s happening now. However, there is no other way to build deterrence.
By the way, this Hamas attack definitely killed the 2 state solution. Most of the Israeli public was already skeptic about it after:
-30 years without a single real peace achievement to celebrate apart territory handover from their side
-more terror attacks than before the Oslo era
-30 year of hateful education system by the PLO
Now, with this attack, there is no way the Israeli population will consent to do harakiri. Everyone understands there that if the same had happenned from a Palestinian state in the West Bank, there would be no more state of Israel.
That’s basically what the israeli right has been arguing for 30 years and they have now been proven right.
The only solution which as some potential to work is the Palestinian emirates proposal from Mordekhai Kedar.
Now that Hamas will probably be wiped out of Gaza, the rule should be handed over to the most poweful tribe(s) in the Gaza Strip.

Posted by: roberto187 | Oct 15 2023 15:59 utc | 216

War Crime of stopping water supply by any means is a war crime.
Now the Is are benevolent for making water available in the south to corral Pals to the south.
Reports of attacking the lines of fleeing refugees.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Oct 15 2023 16:01 utc | 217

War Crime of stopping water supply by any means is a war crime.
Now the Is are benevolent for making water available in the south to corral Pals to the south.
Reports of attacking the lines of fleeing refugees.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Oct 15 2023 16:01 utc | 218

Does anyone else remember that during the first day(s) after September 11th
the news media was reporting that 50,000 people had died in the towers?
An uncomfortable question – fast forward to today, who is doing the body count in Israel?
An uncomfortable question, yes, but we just exited a pandemic with numbers
that were clearly not to be trusted.

Posted by: librul | Oct 15 2023 16:07 utc | 219

Does anyone else remember that during the first day(s) after September 11th
the news media was reporting that 50,000 people had died in the towers?
An uncomfortable question – fast forward to today, who is doing the body count in Israel?
An uncomfortable question, yes, but we just exited a pandemic with numbers
that were clearly not to be trusted.

Posted by: librul | Oct 15 2023 16:07 utc | 220

Ethnic Cleansing
Posted by: librul | Oct 15 2023 15:49 utc | 105

Seems as if with the plans for ground invasion becoming wispier and wispier by the moment, the Zionists are pivoting to murdering as many Palestinians as they possibly can. Genocidal maniacs with zero humanity.

Posted by: warxism | Oct 15 2023 16:08 utc | 221

Ethnic Cleansing
Posted by: librul | Oct 15 2023 15:49 utc | 105

Seems as if with the plans for ground invasion becoming wispier and wispier by the moment, the Zionists are pivoting to murdering as many Palestinians as they possibly can. Genocidal maniacs with zero humanity.

Posted by: warxism | Oct 15 2023 16:08 utc | 222

No thanks, we have enough parasites sucking this host dry without an even greedier and more pernicious one slithering by.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 15 2023 14:17 utc | 81
Arch, watch the 18 minute video Dr. George linked to @ 14:08 utc | 77.
It may cause you to reconsider. He’s not talking about Israel in its present state.
(I’m betting a double shot of aquavit gold against a drink of your choice that you don’t have
the intellectual balls to watch the video.)
Everyone should take a look at that video. It’s invaluable, as bevin said.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Oct 15 2023 16:13 utc | 223

No thanks, we have enough parasites sucking this host dry without an even greedier and more pernicious one slithering by.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 15 2023 14:17 utc | 81
Arch, watch the 18 minute video Dr. George linked to @ 14:08 utc | 77.
It may cause you to reconsider. He’s not talking about Israel in its present state.
(I’m betting a double shot of aquavit gold against a drink of your choice that you don’t have
the intellectual balls to watch the video.)
Everyone should take a look at that video. It’s invaluable, as bevin said.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Oct 15 2023 16:13 utc | 224

Posted by: roberto187 | Oct 15 2023 15:59 utc | 108
Thank you for presenting the ethno-centric genocidal case so starkly.

Posted by: Exile | Oct 15 2023 16:18 utc | 225

Posted by: roberto187 | Oct 15 2023 15:59 utc | 108
Thank you for presenting the ethno-centric genocidal case so starkly.

Posted by: Exile | Oct 15 2023 16:18 utc | 226

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Oct 15 2023 15:32 utc | 97
You were fellating Modi just as much when he was alligning with Putin.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Oct 15 2023 16:20 utc | 227

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Oct 15 2023 15:32 utc | 97
You were fellating Modi just as much when he was alligning with Putin.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Oct 15 2023 16:20 utc | 228

Pretty good analysis from Arnaud. He’s a brilliant follow on Twitter for China related issues.
I disagree with him that Hamas will be destroyed however. Hamas’s strength comes from the injustice faced by the Palestinians. As long as this exists, Hamas will exist.
I remember after the September 11th attacks there was a joke going around about somebody in the near future asking what’s the Taliban?, and nobody knowing because the U.S. had completely destroyed them. (Apologies for not remembering the joke, but this was the gist of it) But guess what? They’re still around and stronger than ever. The might of the U.S. could not erase the Taliban, nor will the might of the Israeli military be able to wipe out Hamas.

Posted by: bachac | Oct 15 2023 16:20 utc | 229

Pretty good analysis from Arnaud. He’s a brilliant follow on Twitter for China related issues.
I disagree with him that Hamas will be destroyed however. Hamas’s strength comes from the injustice faced by the Palestinians. As long as this exists, Hamas will exist.
I remember after the September 11th attacks there was a joke going around about somebody in the near future asking what’s the Taliban?, and nobody knowing because the U.S. had completely destroyed them. (Apologies for not remembering the joke, but this was the gist of it) But guess what? They’re still around and stronger than ever. The might of the U.S. could not erase the Taliban, nor will the might of the Israeli military be able to wipe out Hamas.

Posted by: bachac | Oct 15 2023 16:20 utc | 230

As a sovereign country recognized by the US, Palestine if attacked can then ask [etc.]
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 15 2023 14:45 utc | 91

Huh? The US doesn’t recognize Palestinian statehood, nor for that matter does the UN (just in case you typo’d), for fairly obvious reasons.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 15 2023 16:21 utc | 231

As a sovereign country recognized by the US, Palestine if attacked can then ask [etc.]
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Oct 15 2023 14:45 utc | 91

Huh? The US doesn’t recognize Palestinian statehood, nor for that matter does the UN (just in case you typo’d), for fairly obvious reasons.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 15 2023 16:21 utc | 232

A media tactic very similar to what we’ve seen regarding US backed and led former state of Ukraine is being applied to this situation. Everyone not perfectly aligned with Victoria Nuland is a “Putin puppet” or a “commie”.
Everyone not perfectly aligned with Netanyahu is Muslim terrorist.

Posted by: chunga | Oct 15 2023 16:24 utc | 233

A media tactic very similar to what we’ve seen regarding US backed and led former state of Ukraine is being applied to this situation. Everyone not perfectly aligned with Victoria Nuland is a “Putin puppet” or a “commie”.
Everyone not perfectly aligned with Netanyahu is Muslim terrorist.

Posted by: chunga | Oct 15 2023 16:24 utc | 234

Posted by: roberto187 | Oct 15 2023 15:59 utc | 108
It’s funny that the geopolitical case for the defense of “Israel” is almost always devoid of real historical analysis, reliant on nonsense aphorisms and overbroad cultural generalizations about the Arabic nations, and founded on a complete denial of agency to the Palestinian people. Thank you for providing a feature case.

Posted by: warxism | Oct 15 2023 16:25 utc | 235

Posted by: roberto187 | Oct 15 2023 15:59 utc | 108
It’s funny that the geopolitical case for the defense of “Israel” is almost always devoid of real historical analysis, reliant on nonsense aphorisms and overbroad cultural generalizations about the Arabic nations, and founded on a complete denial of agency to the Palestinian people. Thank you for providing a feature case.

Posted by: warxism | Oct 15 2023 16:25 utc | 236

When the English and the French had a similar problem of “two states or one” in Vanuatu (South Pacific Islands country), they managed to come up with a solution.
It was a called a Condominium. If you were on the French side and spoke french, french laws applied to you. If you were on the English side, English laws applied. Two parliaments and two law enforcement Judiciary/police.
Splitting Palestine-Israel appart could be done if both sides have their own rights and laws, and if there is a will to find a solution.
In the case of Palestine/Israel most groups want to live with their own friends, and with same-speakers (“Placetalk” in the Pacific).
The problem would be because one side is trying to grab territory and expel the other.
But a solution CAN be found – if it is really wanted.

Posted by: Stonebird | Oct 15 2023 16:33 utc | 237

When the English and the French had a similar problem of “two states or one” in Vanuatu (South Pacific Islands country), they managed to come up with a solution.
It was a called a Condominium. If you were on the French side and spoke french, french laws applied to you. If you were on the English side, English laws applied. Two parliaments and two law enforcement Judiciary/police.
Splitting Palestine-Israel appart could be done if both sides have their own rights and laws, and if there is a will to find a solution.
In the case of Palestine/Israel most groups want to live with their own friends, and with same-speakers (“Placetalk” in the Pacific).
The problem would be because one side is trying to grab territory and expel the other.
But a solution CAN be found – if it is really wanted.

Posted by: Stonebird | Oct 15 2023 16:33 utc | 238

Video now up of yesterday’s pro-Palestine demo in Newcastle upon Tyne (the one I attended) – a reminder that UK is more than just London, and doesn’t necesserily support the team our elites have picked for us.
Video really takes off after the crowd move off en masse to protest at the city centre Barclays Bank and Marks & Spencer store (both with Israeli ties). I’m not sure if this was planned or a spontaneous decision – certainly the cops looked worried, and called in the cavalry – literally – to protect Barclays Bank.
The protest then went for a walk around the city centre (again not sure if spontaneous) before ending up at the Monument again, to wind down with some more speechs and chanting, and peacefully dispersing.
Which of course was when the cops, probably mindful of their government orders to arrest anyone with a Palestine flag, started grabbing individuals as they left. I hear at least 5 arrested. If they’d tried that earlier, there may have been a riot. Some of that at the end of the vid.
Labour officials and members were banned from attending by Labour HQ of course, but might have expected other so-called opposition parties such as Lib Dems or Greens to show. Socialist Party, Socialist Workers Party and Communists were present. Disappointing that no trade unions brought their banners along to show solidarity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1894kbZDBY

Posted by: Red Star | Oct 15 2023 16:40 utc | 239

Video now up of yesterday’s pro-Palestine demo in Newcastle upon Tyne (the one I attended) – a reminder that UK is more than just London, and doesn’t necesserily support the team our elites have picked for us.
Video really takes off after the crowd move off en masse to protest at the city centre Barclays Bank and Marks & Spencer store (both with Israeli ties). I’m not sure if this was planned or a spontaneous decision – certainly the cops looked worried, and called in the cavalry – literally – to protect Barclays Bank.
The protest then went for a walk around the city centre (again not sure if spontaneous) before ending up at the Monument again, to wind down with some more speechs and chanting, and peacefully dispersing.
Which of course was when the cops, probably mindful of their government orders to arrest anyone with a Palestine flag, started grabbing individuals as they left. I hear at least 5 arrested. If they’d tried that earlier, there may have been a riot. Some of that at the end of the vid.
Labour officials and members were banned from attending by Labour HQ of course, but might have expected other so-called opposition parties such as Lib Dems or Greens to show. Socialist Party, Socialist Workers Party and Communists were present. Disappointing that no trade unions brought their banners along to show solidarity.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1894kbZDBY

Posted by: Red Star | Oct 15 2023 16:40 utc | 240

As an overview, a good piece. As an explanatory for WHY Hamas acted, it’s a failure. It the author had added the why, it would be excellent.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 15 2023 16:41 utc | 241

As an overview, a good piece. As an explanatory for WHY Hamas acted, it’s a failure. It the author had added the why, it would be excellent.

Posted by: karlof1 | Oct 15 2023 16:41 utc | 242

@ Stonebird | Oct 15 2023 16:33 utc | 120
Sounds promising in the abstract until you realize that ot doesn’t solve the property theft problem. Millions of Palestinians would like, and deserve, the return of their homes and property.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 15 2023 16:41 utc | 243

@ Stonebird | Oct 15 2023 16:33 utc | 120
Sounds promising in the abstract until you realize that ot doesn’t solve the property theft problem. Millions of Palestinians would like, and deserve, the return of their homes and property.

Posted by: malenkov | Oct 15 2023 16:41 utc | 244

In this very detailed piece/compilation —> the author connects many dots – resulting a very hopeful picture for Palestine & others who prefer peace & justice, to western backed barbarism.
Israeli Conflict Takes Eschatological Turn + Ukraine War Updates
Simplicius the thinker

Oct 15
…..”But there’s another larger dimension to this, which MoA’s great new article touches on. It’s an eschatological one.”
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/israeli-conflict-takes-eschatological

Posted by: Toby C | Oct 15 2023 16:48 utc | 245

In this very detailed piece/compilation —> the author connects many dots – resulting a very hopeful picture for Palestine & others who prefer peace & justice, to western backed barbarism.
Israeli Conflict Takes Eschatological Turn + Ukraine War Updates
Simplicius the thinker

Oct 15
…..”But there’s another larger dimension to this, which MoA’s great new article touches on. It’s an eschatological one.”
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/israeli-conflict-takes-eschatological

Posted by: Toby C | Oct 15 2023 16:48 utc | 246

Surely this is truly a critical and world-historical moment, and innumerable political movements, orientations, and players will ferrously latch on to it in order to replenish themselves as far meaning and purpose. Obviously, the West remains for the time being graced with greater military and politico-economic power than even Asia, let alone Latin America or, to be sure, Africa.
I think one of the most pressing questions is, putting empty rhetoric aside, is Israel’s response to Oct 7 and the West’s defense and effective greenlighting of the decimation of Gaza in turn genuine fascism, as opposed to a quasi or fascist-adjacent course? And, consequently, does it signal, by way of an inaugural event, the solidification of fascism under the most fragile, thin, and transparent of democratic veneers? I.e. is this the West announcing to the world that something more approaching a denuded fascism is at hand in the West, under the shield and pretext of a “long campaign” against global antisemitism for years or even decades to come?
Or this spike of fascist apologism in the official centers of power in the West less concerning in the mid and long term than it might presently seem, relative to the liberal democratic traditions people have been accustomed to in the West for generations?

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 15 2023 16:52 utc | 247

Surely this is truly a critical and world-historical moment, and innumerable political movements, orientations, and players will ferrously latch on to it in order to replenish themselves as far meaning and purpose. Obviously, the West remains for the time being graced with greater military and politico-economic power than even Asia, let alone Latin America or, to be sure, Africa.
I think one of the most pressing questions is, putting empty rhetoric aside, is Israel’s response to Oct 7 and the West’s defense and effective greenlighting of the decimation of Gaza in turn genuine fascism, as opposed to a quasi or fascist-adjacent course? And, consequently, does it signal, by way of an inaugural event, the solidification of fascism under the most fragile, thin, and transparent of democratic veneers? I.e. is this the West announcing to the world that something more approaching a denuded fascism is at hand in the West, under the shield and pretext of a “long campaign” against global antisemitism for years or even decades to come?
Or this spike of fascist apologism in the official centers of power in the West less concerning in the mid and long term than it might presently seem, relative to the liberal democratic traditions people have been accustomed to in the West for generations?

Posted by: Ludo | Oct 15 2023 16:52 utc | 248

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Iranians are god tier trolls. I think this is an old picture, but here is a billboard in Iran depicting the Fattah hypersonic missile with the inscription: “400 seconds to Tel Aviv.”

Posted by: warxism | Oct 15 2023 16:54 utc | 249

Not sure if this has been posted yet, but Iranians are god tier trolls. I think this is an old picture, but here is a billboard in Iran depicting the Fattah hypersonic missile with the inscription: “400 seconds to Tel Aviv.”

Posted by: warxism | Oct 15 2023 16:54 utc | 250

malenkov | Oct 15 2023 16:41 utc | 123
Yup. Previous actions were not really taken into account in Vanuatu. But the principle of two “peoples” rahter than two territories might still have some value. it would at least enable some legal action to be allowed by the Palestinians..
Now that you mention it, I do not know how the problems that must have existed in Vanuatu were resolved, and the “solution” was a Governmental one. If neither side wants to “recognize” the other then we are off to a bad start.

Posted by: Stonebird | Oct 15 2023 16:54 utc | 251

malenkov | Oct 15 2023 16:41 utc | 123
Yup. Previous actions were not really taken into account in Vanuatu. But the principle of two “peoples” rahter than two territories might still have some value. it would at least enable some legal action to be allowed by the Palestinians..
Now that you mention it, I do not know how the problems that must have existed in Vanuatu were resolved, and the “solution” was a Governmental one. If neither side wants to “recognize” the other then we are off to a bad start.

Posted by: Stonebird | Oct 15 2023 16:54 utc | 252

A small motivated minority can change the world. Look at what the Jewish elites have managed to do in the West.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 15 2023 15:42 utc | 100
Or the neocons, for that matter …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 15 2023 16:57 utc | 253

A small motivated minority can change the world. Look at what the Jewish elites have managed to do in the West.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Oct 15 2023 15:42 utc | 100
Or the neocons, for that matter …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 15 2023 16:57 utc | 254

Good luck palistine. Israel is the new palistine (copyright mark2)
Ha ha.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 15 2023 13:54 utc | 70
Might makes Right, Mark. Remember that …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 15 2023 17:02 utc | 255

Good luck palistine. Israel is the new palistine (copyright mark2)
Ha ha.
Posted by: Mark2 | Oct 15 2023 13:54 utc | 70
Might makes Right, Mark. Remember that …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Oct 15 2023 17:02 utc | 256

@ Alta4710 | Oct 15 2023 11:39 utc | 27
“I’m wondering if Israel’s tragedy hasn’t been at least in part that it was so late to the settler-state “game”.”
Yes, that is absolutely the case; indeed, Israel barely managed to get started at all in 1948, and that only because of fortuitous circumstances.
In my view, there are six main successful European settler states in the world: the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, and Uruguay. Each of these was established long ago when European settlement and theft of native lands and extermination of aborginal peoples was seen as morally acceptable (despite occasional dissent), the latest of them being New Zealand, which nevertheless had enough time to establish itself. In each of these, the Europeans literally went out in search of thinly-populated aboriginal lands to appropriate, which helped to ensure success.
Many other European settler schemes were also attempted, but they did not succeed: Dutch and British in South Africa, British in Kenya and Zimbabwe, Germans in Namibia, French in Algeria, Italians in Libya, Portuguese in Angola (very late), all with the intent of outnumbering the natives and all failed to keep political control.
So when Zionist colonization of Palestine began under the Ottoman Empire in 1881 and was formalized with the Zionist movement in 1897, it was too late. From 1903-1905, they even considered a British offer to take part of Kenya, which the Zionist founder Theodor Herzl (1860-1904) actually accepted. This was all going on at the exact moment when European colonialism and racism were at their height but about to go down with a swiftness no one could anticipate.
So the Zionist settlement plans were too late, because they coincided with the spread of modern mass education and mass literacy and thus the spread of indigenous nationalism shortly to end the European empires. Also, they picked Palestine, a densely-populated land in the middle of the world of Muslim civilization and not diverse small tribes. Their venture was quixotic from the outset. By 1948, they were only 33% of the population in Palestine, and without sympathy over the Holocaust and a lot of arm twisting by the US, the 1947 partition of Palestine resolution would never have passed.
Today, after 75 years of massacre and mayhem, blood, sweat, tears, and the spending of vast sums, they still are only about half the population of Palestine, having to live cheek by jowl with the people they displaced right in their faces every day. What a herculean effort for such a small result! (And arguably a malign one.)
So the Zionist venture is kind of like trying to build a wall of sand to keep the tide from coming in.

Posted by: Cabe | Oct 15 2023 17:14 utc | 257

@ Alta4710 | Oct 15 2023 11:39 utc | 27
“I’m wondering if Israel’s tragedy hasn’t been at least in part that it was so late to the settler-state “game”.”
Yes, that is absolutely the case; indeed, Israel barely managed to get started at all in 1948, and that only because of fortuitous circumstances.
In my view, there are six main successful European settler states in the world: the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Argentina, and Uruguay. Each of these was established long ago when European settlement and theft of native lands and extermination of aborginal peoples was seen as morally acceptable (despite occasional dissent), the latest of them being New Zealand, which nevertheless had enough time to establish itself. In each of these, the Europeans literally went out in search of thinly-populated aboriginal lands to appropriate, which helped to ensure success.
Many other European settler schemes were also attempted, but they did not succeed: Dutch and British in South Africa, British in Kenya and Zimbabwe, Germans in Namibia, French in Algeria, Italians in Libya, Portuguese in Angola (very late), all with the intent of outnumbering the natives and all failed to keep political control.
So when Zionist colonization of Palestine began under the Ottoman Empire in 1881 and was formalized with the Zionist movement in 1897, it was too late. From 1903-1905, they even considered a British offer to take part of Kenya, which the Zionist founder Theodor Herzl (1860-1904) actually accepted. This was all going on at the exact moment when European colonialism and racism were at their height but about to go down with a swiftness no one could anticipate.
So the Zionist settlement plans were too late, because they coincided with the spread of modern mass education and mass literacy and thus the spread of indigenous nationalism shortly to end the European empires. Also, they picked Palestine, a densely-populated land in the middle of the world of Muslim civilization and not diverse small tribes. Their venture was quixotic from the outset. By 1948, they were only 33% of the population in Palestine, and without sympathy over the Holocaust and a lot of arm twisting by the US, the 1947 partition of Palestine resolution would never have passed.
Today, after 75 years of massacre and mayhem, blood, sweat, tears, and the spending of vast sums, they still are only about half the population of Palestine, having to live cheek by jowl with the people they displaced right in their faces every day. What a herculean effort for such a small result! (And arguably a malign one.)
So the Zionist venture is kind of like trying to build a wall of sand to keep the tide from coming in.

Posted by: Cabe | Oct 15 2023 17:14 utc | 258

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 15 2023 11:46 utc | 31

It’s easy to see the move of US to deploye 2 or even more carriers in eastern Mediterranean a knee-jerk reaction. It is based on fear, and attempt to bluff out of actual weakness. ..

Info today is that US has already sent/stationed its 2.nd Aircraft Carrier in the Mediterranean Sea, so for what goals this ‘powerful’ approach may now stand for?
I don’t think “It is based on fear” or a bluff, but may be a strategical issue to warn or provoke possible counterparts like Iran, Iraq, Sysria, Lebanon, Jemen, ..? to be prepared for some new strikes against them for next weeks (eg. today against Sysria Aleppo).
Now show your ‘real’ power USA-Gov-Pentagon!
Then we’ll see whether anything you [US] has proudly pronounced like this would help to stop the Palestine friendly countries of lunching any further counter measures ..

Posted by: spare_trurh | Oct 15 2023 17:14 utc | 259

Posted by: unimperator | Oct 15 2023 11:46 utc | 31

It’s easy to see the move of US to deploye 2 or even more carriers in eastern Mediterranean a knee-jerk reaction. It is based on fear, and attempt to bluff out of actual weakness. ..

Info today is that US has already sent/stationed its 2.nd Aircraft Carrier in the Mediterranean Sea, so for what goals this ‘powerful’ approach may now stand for?
I don’t think “It is based on fear” or a bluff, but may be a strategical issue to warn or provoke possible counterparts like Iran, Iraq, Sysria, Lebanon, Jemen, ..? to be prepared for some new strikes against them for next weeks (eg. today against Sysria Aleppo).
Now show your ‘real’ power USA-Gov-Pentagon!
Then we’ll see whether anything you [US] has proudly pronounced like this would help to stop the Palestine friendly countries of lunching any further counter measures ..

Posted by: spare_trurh | Oct 15 2023 17:14 utc | 260

@ c1ue | Oct 15 2023 11:39 utc | 28
Welcome back! You are on point as usual.

Posted by: Cabe | Oct 15 2023 17:16 utc | 261

@ c1ue | Oct 15 2023 11:39 utc | 28
Welcome back! You are on point as usual.

Posted by: Cabe | Oct 15 2023 17:16 utc | 262

What this Article DOES NOT address are the 10,000 pound Elephants in the room

The SIX EYES INTELLIGENCE FAILURE

It is simply NOT PLAUSIBLE.

The COMPLETE FAILURE OF SECURITY FORCES, both the State and Private

It is simply NOT PLAUSIBLE.
And yet, here we are a week later, and those charged with their respective responsibilities remain unchallenged by Oversight and Media.

Posted by: Anti-Bolshevik | Oct 15 2023 17:38 utc | 263

What this Article DOES NOT address are the 10,000 pound Elephants in the room

The SIX EYES INTELLIGENCE FAILURE

It is simply NOT PLAUSIBLE.

The COMPLETE FAILURE OF SECURITY FORCES, both the State and Private

It is simply NOT PLAUSIBLE.
And yet, here we are a week later, and those charged with their respective responsibilities remain unchallenged by Oversight and Media.

Posted by: Anti-Bolshevik | Oct 15 2023 17:38 utc | 264

“All over the world, masses of workers and youth are shocked and revolted by the horrors being unleashed on the Palestinian population, with over one million people protesting throughout the world this past week. With the fate of millions of Palestinians now hanging in the balance, it is urgent that this opposition be expanded through industrial action by the working class.”
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/10/15/beut-o15.html

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 15 2023 17:42 utc | 265

“All over the world, masses of workers and youth are shocked and revolted by the horrors being unleashed on the Palestinian population, with over one million people protesting throughout the world this past week. With the fate of millions of Palestinians now hanging in the balance, it is urgent that this opposition be expanded through industrial action by the working class.”
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/10/15/beut-o15.html

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Oct 15 2023 17:42 utc | 266

Everyone should watch this video…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBumTNZvVvk
. . .
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 15 2023 14:08 utc | 78
++++++++++
I am watching the video.
I want to circulate it.
But I would like to add the name of the speaker, and I can’t see it at the Youtube webpage.
Who is the speaker?
Can someone help??
Thanks.
Jane

Posted by: Jane | Oct 15 2023 17:42 utc | 267

Everyone should watch this video…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBumTNZvVvk
. . .
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 15 2023 14:08 utc | 78
++++++++++
I am watching the video.
I want to circulate it.
But I would like to add the name of the speaker, and I can’t see it at the Youtube webpage.
Who is the speaker?
Can someone help??
Thanks.
Jane

Posted by: Jane | Oct 15 2023 17:42 utc | 268

@ Stonebird | Oct 15 2023 16:33 utc | 120
“Splitting Palestine-Israel appart could be done if both sides have their own rights and laws, and if there is a will to find a solution.
In the case of Palestine/Israel most groups want to live with their own friends, and with same-speakers (“Placetalk” in the Pacific).
The problem would be because one side is trying to grab territory and expel the other.”
Yes, well the ideal of the “two-state solution” was always for Israel to go back to its pre-1967 boundaries and for Palestine to be made out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. This had the virtue of removing most of the Palestinian population from Israeli control and leaving the Palestinian minority in Israel who have Israeli citizenship to seek their rights within the framework of Israel, which they have been doing in any case. The theory was that the Palestinians would have their own area and would be peaceful because they would not want Israel to destroy what they built up, and also they would be safe behind a recognized border from further Israeli depredations, while the Israelis would have a secure majority and so would not be freaking out about the Palestinians. Thus, both sides could calm down and eventually get along. In theory. This idea has been especially popular with people who are not there.
From the Palestinian side, this might have worked. I remember standing in Bal`a in the West Bank in 1971 looking down at the lights of the Israeli towns on the coastal plain, with my friend from there commenting, “That is their land, this is our land.” I also remember the Palestinians I visited in the Mukhayyam al-`Ayn No. 1 refugee camp by Nablus in 1981 saying about the very two-state solution I outlined, “We don’t know if Fatah would accept that, but we would do anything to get the Israelis off of our backs.” In other words, even though the expulsions and land seizures by Israel in 1948 were an injustice, many Palestinians were willing to “eat it” back then if Israel would offer them something sufficient.
But Israel has never offered the Palestinians anything much, despite its having grudgingly accorded citizenship to its Palestinian minority. Unfortunately, they can’t really do the same for the West Bank, let alone Gaza, without giving up their Zionist nationalist commitment, and so they are stuck with something that just gets worse and worse.

Posted by: Cabe | Oct 15 2023 17:44 utc | 269

@ Stonebird | Oct 15 2023 16:33 utc | 120
“Splitting Palestine-Israel appart could be done if both sides have their own rights and laws, and if there is a will to find a solution.
In the case of Palestine/Israel most groups want to live with their own friends, and with same-speakers (“Placetalk” in the Pacific).
The problem would be because one side is trying to grab territory and expel the other.”
Yes, well the ideal of the “two-state solution” was always for Israel to go back to its pre-1967 boundaries and for Palestine to be made out of the West Bank and Gaza Strip. This had the virtue of removing most of the Palestinian population from Israeli control and leaving the Palestinian minority in Israel who have Israeli citizenship to seek their rights within the framework of Israel, which they have been doing in any case. The theory was that the Palestinians would have their own area and would be peaceful because they would not want Israel to destroy what they built up, and also they would be safe behind a recognized border from further Israeli depredations, while the Israelis would have a secure majority and so would not be freaking out about the Palestinians. Thus, both sides could calm down and eventually get along. In theory. This idea has been especially popular with people who are not there.
From the Palestinian side, this might have worked. I remember standing in Bal`a in the West Bank in 1971 looking down at the lights of the Israeli towns on the coastal plain, with my friend from there commenting, “That is their land, this is our land.” I also remember the Palestinians I visited in the Mukhayyam al-`Ayn No. 1 refugee camp by Nablus in 1981 saying about the very two-state solution I outlined, “We don’t know if Fatah would accept that, but we would do anything to get the Israelis off of our backs.” In other words, even though the expulsions and land seizures by Israel in 1948 were an injustice, many Palestinians were willing to “eat it” back then if Israel would offer them something sufficient.
But Israel has never offered the Palestinians anything much, despite its having grudgingly accorded citizenship to its Palestinian minority. Unfortunately, they can’t really do the same for the West Bank, let alone Gaza, without giving up their Zionist nationalist commitment, and so they are stuck with something that just gets worse and worse.

Posted by: Cabe | Oct 15 2023 17:44 utc | 270

In other news, the Philadelphia Inquirer, a solid part of the MSM, published this article today: https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/israel-war-palestine-zionism-violence-family-20231012.html .
This is still available as I write without a paywall because it is today’s edition. That the Inquirer, which is just about as pro-deep state imperialism, pro-Israel, and anti-Russian as they come, would publish something from a Jew so anti-Zionist and so hostile to Israel is surely a straw in the wind here. In the same issue, Trudy Rubin, the foreign correspondent of the Inquirer and reliable scribe of the state, writes full of warning about not treating the Palestinians too harshly, protecting civilians, and so on. So stuff changes, however slowly.

Posted by: Cabe | Oct 15 2023 17:45 utc | 271

In other news, the Philadelphia Inquirer, a solid part of the MSM, published this article today: https://www.inquirer.com/opinion/commentary/israel-war-palestine-zionism-violence-family-20231012.html .
This is still available as I write without a paywall because it is today’s edition. That the Inquirer, which is just about as pro-deep state imperialism, pro-Israel, and anti-Russian as they come, would publish something from a Jew so anti-Zionist and so hostile to Israel is surely a straw in the wind here. In the same issue, Trudy Rubin, the foreign correspondent of the Inquirer and reliable scribe of the state, writes full of warning about not treating the Palestinians too harshly, protecting civilians, and so on. So stuff changes, however slowly.

Posted by: Cabe | Oct 15 2023 17:45 utc | 272

Trap is in essence, that if Israel responded by force, it would come out as a weak, paper tiger. Only non-weak result would be if they, as b said, responded in peaceful manner – something all know Israel would never do.
So, as Israel got its ass kicked on day one, and:
1. respond only by bloodthirstily bombing civilians without promissed ground attack – it looks like weakling that got scared
2. do make a ground attack – it will have lot of losses – so it will look weak, paper tiger
3. don’t do ground attack, stops bombing, pleads for piece because Iran, Hezbollah etc. threaten with response – still looks weak
4. go nuts, attacks Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, Syria, pretty much anyone (with help of US carriers) – well this is option 2. but on steroids, still gets its ass kicked, US too
Game was rigged, only way for Israel to win was not to play it.

Posted by: Abe | Oct 15 2023 17:53 utc | 273

Trap is in essence, that if Israel responded by force, it would come out as a weak, paper tiger. Only non-weak result would be if they, as b said, responded in peaceful manner – something all know Israel would never do.
So, as Israel got its ass kicked on day one, and:
1. respond only by bloodthirstily bombing civilians without promissed ground attack – it looks like weakling that got scared
2. do make a ground attack – it will have lot of losses – so it will look weak, paper tiger
3. don’t do ground attack, stops bombing, pleads for piece because Iran, Hezbollah etc. threaten with response – still looks weak
4. go nuts, attacks Gaza, Lebanon, Iran, Syria, pretty much anyone (with help of US carriers) – well this is option 2. but on steroids, still gets its ass kicked, US too
Game was rigged, only way for Israel to win was not to play it.

Posted by: Abe | Oct 15 2023 17:53 utc | 274

@Posted by: too scents | Oct 15 2023 10:54 utc | 3
Well, the very Borrell remebering that competences on Foreign Policy are a responsability of the Council of Euope, none of Von der Leyen atributions she arrogates to herself…This woman, obviously acts encouraged by the whole impunity she feels she enjoy through the de facto coup d´etat on European governemnts the whole “pandemic” issued was about really, which she and Thierry Breton directed and impossed on the Eueopean governments and citizenry.
Thierry Breton has also usurped a role of kind of “EU Interior Minister” dictating, widely out os his atributions as Comissary on Internal Market, that any information contrary to the US/Israel narrative will be deemed “support for terrorism” and thus banned….
This two should be submitted asap to a wide investigation on their possible role a foreign agents into the EU undermining European interest all the way through the past three years to this very day.
Then it is the mass rejection by European populations even when suffering the heavy beating by police in France, Italy and Germany ( three of the participants in the IMEC corridor project they share with Israel to compete with the BRI…)..
There have been mass demonstrations in suppprt of the Palestinian people in main European capitals these days, and even in Israel allied countries in Northern Africa whose governments and royals fully aligne with Israel for spurious interests, like Morocco…

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Oct 15 2023 17:56 utc | 275

@Posted by: too scents | Oct 15 2023 10:54 utc | 3
Well, the very Borrell remebering that competences on Foreign Policy are a responsability of the Council of Euope, none of Von der Leyen atributions she arrogates to herself…This woman, obviously acts encouraged by the whole impunity she feels she enjoy through the de facto coup d´etat on European governemnts the whole “pandemic” issued was about really, which she and Thierry Breton directed and impossed on the Eueopean governments and citizenry.
Thierry Breton has also usurped a role of kind of “EU Interior Minister” dictating, widely out os his atributions as Comissary on Internal Market, that any information contrary to the US/Israel narrative will be deemed “support for terrorism” and thus banned….
This two should be submitted asap to a wide investigation on their possible role a foreign agents into the EU undermining European interest all the way through the past three years to this very day.
Then it is the mass rejection by European populations even when suffering the heavy beating by police in France, Italy and Germany ( three of the participants in the IMEC corridor project they share with Israel to compete with the BRI…)..
There have been mass demonstrations in suppprt of the Palestinian people in main European capitals these days, and even in Israel allied countries in Northern Africa whose governments and royals fully aligne with Israel for spurious interests, like Morocco…

Posted by: Ghost of Mozgovoy | Oct 15 2023 17:56 utc | 276

Who is the speaker? Can someone help??
Posted by: Jane | Oct 15 2023 17:42 utc | 137
Shahid Bolsen
+ Look for other Middle Nation vids.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Oct 15 2023 17:58 utc | 277

Who is the speaker? Can someone help??
Posted by: Jane | Oct 15 2023 17:42 utc | 137
Shahid Bolsen
+ Look for other Middle Nation vids.

Posted by: waynorinorway | Oct 15 2023 17:58 utc | 278

A bit of idle speculation.
The only suicide I see is of the Israel project.
The failure in an Ukraine is the end of the Affair.
The Great Game is lost. Again, and this time forever.
Well certainly for the next century or 5.
The only path of action for those highly invested in the Games is to retain investments in the resources which are now going to be facilitated through the BRI and the Multipolar World Order. Hoping to retain as much wealth and power they have enjoyed for centuries.
The new NWO, certainly will not tolerate the continued injustice of the Palestine and its peoples. Or the wider MENA.
They only have that Hope and a bit of bargaining. Selling their grandmothers comes easy to such predatory finks of Blackrock types.
Hence – time to dismantle the Israel Project.
The settlers will be repatriated to where they came from or to places they can resettle that will accept them. Shouldn’t be much of a problem. Plenty of space in the original migration state – the USA.
Better also if they can yet again gain some sympathy for more Suffering.
To build upon for a future repeat
Yup it’s suicide by ott overreaction. Dressed as disaster and defeat that will follow.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 15 2023 17:59 utc | 279

A bit of idle speculation.
The only suicide I see is of the Israel project.
The failure in an Ukraine is the end of the Affair.
The Great Game is lost. Again, and this time forever.
Well certainly for the next century or 5.
The only path of action for those highly invested in the Games is to retain investments in the resources which are now going to be facilitated through the BRI and the Multipolar World Order. Hoping to retain as much wealth and power they have enjoyed for centuries.
The new NWO, certainly will not tolerate the continued injustice of the Palestine and its peoples. Or the wider MENA.
They only have that Hope and a bit of bargaining. Selling their grandmothers comes easy to such predatory finks of Blackrock types.
Hence – time to dismantle the Israel Project.
The settlers will be repatriated to where they came from or to places they can resettle that will accept them. Shouldn’t be much of a problem. Plenty of space in the original migration state – the USA.
Better also if they can yet again gain some sympathy for more Suffering.
To build upon for a future repeat
Yup it’s suicide by ott overreaction. Dressed as disaster and defeat that will follow.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Oct 15 2023 17:59 utc | 280

Israel did not need to let 800+ right-wing Israelis invade Al Aqsa Mosque, The Dome of the Rock, WITH police protection (thus government approval) AND abuse the worshippers therein. This is especially so since there has been warnings not to do this before, and repeated historical examples how this gross insult inflames the region (e.g. Ariel Sharon’s previous stupid attempt to break into Al Aqsa). Further Israel had at least over a week warning by BOTH Egypt AND (now we discover) USA intelligence about something big being ramped up by Hamas, yet such intel was flagrantly ignored, let alone if we will ever know it to be updated into their precious Security A.I. AND Israel shuffled forces predominantly to the West Bank and essentially went on holiday staffing levels. Curiosities abound!
At every step of the way Israel did not need to give this Casus Belli, let alone leave exposed their security around Gaza. These are decisions by Israel’s hand alone. And to be further ‘war crime predictable’ mindlessly vengeful, as Arnaud Bertrand argues here, only cements the self-serving, contortionist, illogic of Israel’s victimhood. These are deliberate blood sacrifices by sheer willful negligence and stubbornness.
It is time to stop lies of Israel pretending to be an unwitting victim. No one is that fully aware of so much both history & high tech intel, and then that oblivious of how their actions have consequences. Personal responsibility Israeli government, do you have any? Even to your own citizens? Stop lying & killing first.

Posted by: titmouse | Oct 15 2023 18:05 utc | 281

Israel did not need to let 800+ right-wing Israelis invade Al Aqsa Mosque, The Dome of the Rock, WITH police protection (thus government approval) AND abuse the worshippers therein. This is especially so since there has been warnings not to do this before, and repeated historical examples how this gross insult inflames the region (e.g. Ariel Sharon’s previous stupid attempt to break into Al Aqsa). Further Israel had at least over a week warning by BOTH Egypt AND (now we discover) USA intelligence about something big being ramped up by Hamas, yet such intel was flagrantly ignored, let alone if we will ever know it to be updated into their precious Security A.I. AND Israel shuffled forces predominantly to the West Bank and essentially went on holiday staffing levels. Curiosities abound!
At every step of the way Israel did not need to give this Casus Belli, let alone leave exposed their security around Gaza. These are decisions by Israel’s hand alone. And to be further ‘war crime predictable’ mindlessly vengeful, as Arnaud Bertrand argues here, only cements the self-serving, contortionist, illogic of Israel’s victimhood. These are deliberate blood sacrifices by sheer willful negligence and stubbornness.
It is time to stop lies of Israel pretending to be an unwitting victim. No one is that fully aware of so much both history & high tech intel, and then that oblivious of how their actions have consequences. Personal responsibility Israeli government, do you have any? Even to your own citizens? Stop lying & killing first.

Posted by: titmouse | Oct 15 2023 18:05 utc | 282

Anti-Bolshevik@135
It is, on the contrary, extremely plausible that Israeli intelligence failed.
You just have to understand that there are two stages to intelligence: gathering it and analysing it. You seem to assume that once gathered it analyses itself. But that is not the case.
I agree that it is unlikely that no signs were detected of Hamas preparations for offensive action. What is very likely is that such signs were misinterpreted as incredible by racist colonists who cannot bring themselves to understand that their adversary is human, let alone that he is capable of orgainising a war against them.
Stonebird@128
Surely the only solution here is that of a single state in which a very diverse population, consisting of immigrants from all over the world as well as the extremely diversified indigenous peoples learn to live with one another peacefully.
The essence of Zionism is to postpone what, for racists, is this nightmare of a Palestinian people constructed on a basis other than that of the weird hybrid of ethnicity, religion and culture that the IDF was built to foster and enforce.
There is no doubt that for peace and reason to prevail the State of Israel must be replaced by a democracy with a mission other than the suppression of the indigenous majority.
The State of Israel is, in and of itself, a war crime- every day that it exists is another day of criminal assault on innocence. It is the last of the century old crop of fascist states left standing.

Posted by: bevin | Oct 15 2023 18:05 utc | 283

Anti-Bolshevik@135
It is, on the contrary, extremely plausible that Israeli intelligence failed.
You just have to understand that there are two stages to intelligence: gathering it and analysing it. You seem to assume that once gathered it analyses itself. But that is not the case.
I agree that it is unlikely that no signs were detected of Hamas preparations for offensive action. What is very likely is that such signs were misinterpreted as incredible by racist colonists who cannot bring themselves to understand that their adversary is human, let alone that he is capable of orgainising a war against them.
Stonebird@128
Surely the only solution here is that of a single state in which a very diverse population, consisting of immigrants from all over the world as well as the extremely diversified indigenous peoples learn to live with one another peacefully.
The essence of Zionism is to postpone what, for racists, is this nightmare of a Palestinian people constructed on a basis other than that of the weird hybrid of ethnicity, religion and culture that the IDF was built to foster and enforce.
There is no doubt that for peace and reason to prevail the State of Israel must be replaced by a democracy with a mission other than the suppression of the indigenous majority.
The State of Israel is, in and of itself, a war crime- every day that it exists is another day of criminal assault on innocence. It is the last of the century old crop of fascist states left standing.

Posted by: bevin | Oct 15 2023 18:05 utc | 284

Gabe,
Yes, well the ideal of the “two-state solution” was always for Israel to go back to its pre-1967 boundaries
Sorry but the only internationally recognized boundries remain those described in UNR 181 from 1947. 181 is the 2 state solution the international community agreed on. Everything after is a ceasefire line.
you might do well to review 181

Posted by: Exile | Oct 15 2023 18:06 utc | 285

Gabe,
Yes, well the ideal of the “two-state solution” was always for Israel to go back to its pre-1967 boundaries
Sorry but the only internationally recognized boundries remain those described in UNR 181 from 1947. 181 is the 2 state solution the international community agreed on. Everything after is a ceasefire line.
you might do well to review 181

Posted by: Exile | Oct 15 2023 18:06 utc | 286

This Guy is Class. I have no idea who he is, but everything he says is spot on..
“He basically says that Israel is a tool of the US.
That Israel should realize that it’s future lies with the global south..
That Israel must rid itself of Netanyahu…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBumTNZvVvk

Posted by: tony_opmoc | Oct 15 2023 18:11 utc | 287

This Guy is Class. I have no idea who he is, but everything he says is spot on..
“He basically says that Israel is a tool of the US.
That Israel should realize that it’s future lies with the global south..
That Israel must rid itself of Netanyahu…”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBumTNZvVvk

Posted by: tony_opmoc | Oct 15 2023 18:11 utc | 288

Posted by: bevin | Oct 15 2023 18:05 utc | 145

It is, on the contrary, extremely plausible that Israeli intelligence failed.

Nonsense.
Your apologetic seemed to disregard my specific naming of 6 EYES, not solely Israeli Intel.
1. Egyptian Intelligence PROVIDED A WARNING
2. US + UK + FRANCE + AU “missed it”

Posted by: Anti-Bolshevik | Oct 15 2023 18:12 utc | 289

Posted by: bevin | Oct 15 2023 18:05 utc | 145

It is, on the contrary, extremely plausible that Israeli intelligence failed.

Nonsense.
Your apologetic seemed to disregard my specific naming of 6 EYES, not solely Israeli Intel.
1. Egyptian Intelligence PROVIDED A WARNING
2. US + UK + FRANCE + AU “missed it”

Posted by: Anti-Bolshevik | Oct 15 2023 18:12 utc | 290

Vanessa Beely on Twitter Reports;
…..Israeli media — Hebrew Channel 10:
News of mass desertions among the ranks of soldiers, their refusal to participate in the war, disagreements between commanders, and withdrawals of senior officers and official….
(Comment – seems regular secular Jews don‘t want to die for Haradim and Wealthy Askenazi wihose kids live overseas)

Posted by: Exile | Oct 15 2023 18:17 utc | 291

Vanessa Beely on Twitter Reports;
…..Israeli media — Hebrew Channel 10:
News of mass desertions among the ranks of soldiers, their refusal to participate in the war, disagreements between commanders, and withdrawals of senior officers and official….
(Comment – seems regular secular Jews don‘t want to die for Haradim and Wealthy Askenazi wihose kids live overseas)

Posted by: Exile | Oct 15 2023 18:17 utc | 292

Re Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 15 2023 14:08 utc | 78
One of the commenters in the thread after the Middle Nation video is an Israeli who agrees with all that was said, and added that Israelis should give back “some Palestinian” land so that they can have their own state.
Well, that is not what the speaker said in the vid.
Something rankles with the idea of “giving back some land” to the people you stole it from. Perhaps the viewer missed the main point of the “advice.” It is not for the thief to decide how much to “give back.”
In principle, every bit of stolen land should be restored to its rightful owners.
At the very least, go back to the internationally recognized border (UN resolution 181).
Furthermore, however—and this is my main point point and I think it is related, even if a technical point—the more Palestinian buildings and homes are bombed, the more evidence is destroyed of Palestinians’ actual ownership of their land, homes, farms, and businesses (that predate the Zionist incursion and the Nakba).
Many Palestinians have, or had, the keys to their dwellings. Many have, or had, the deeds and other documents showing their ownership.
Per Wiki:
1858 Land Code in Palestine
. . .
“When the British assumed control over Palestine at the end of 1917 with the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, they applied the Ottoman laws of the Ottoman Land Code of 1858 to all inhabitants.[22] The laws then in place were officially recognized by Article 46 of the King’s Speech (enacted in the name of King George V on 10 August 1922, Palestine Order in Council), according to which provisions the validity of the Ottoman law that existed in Palestine on November 1, 1914, was recognized, and made subject to orders and regulations issued from then on by the mandate government.[23]
The Ottoman Land Code inherited by the British prescribed that houses were mostly privately owned and called “mulk land” (land vested fully and completely to their owners), while land was viewed as miri (allotted by the state to a village or number of villages and which cannot be private property of individuals), and is only leased to the tenants of indefinite duration, in which the lease is represented by the obligation to pay land taxes and land registry fees.[24] When the miri interest is alienated, the ultimate ownership called raqaba is retained by the State. . . .”
The Zionists have not only stolen the land but also destroy evidence of who actually had a right to it before the theft actions. Bombing homes in Gaza is surely destroying what little evidence of true ownership might have survived. Theyh are creating a tabula rasa: A land with no people for a people with no land. Except that now the no-landers have seized all the land.

Posted by: Jane | Oct 15 2023 18:18 utc | 293

Re Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 15 2023 14:08 utc | 78
One of the commenters in the thread after the Middle Nation video is an Israeli who agrees with all that was said, and added that Israelis should give back “some Palestinian” land so that they can have their own state.
Well, that is not what the speaker said in the vid.
Something rankles with the idea of “giving back some land” to the people you stole it from. Perhaps the viewer missed the main point of the “advice.” It is not for the thief to decide how much to “give back.”
In principle, every bit of stolen land should be restored to its rightful owners.
At the very least, go back to the internationally recognized border (UN resolution 181).
Furthermore, however—and this is my main point point and I think it is related, even if a technical point—the more Palestinian buildings and homes are bombed, the more evidence is destroyed of Palestinians’ actual ownership of their land, homes, farms, and businesses (that predate the Zionist incursion and the Nakba).
Many Palestinians have, or had, the keys to their dwellings. Many have, or had, the deeds and other documents showing their ownership.
Per Wiki:
1858 Land Code in Palestine
. . .
“When the British assumed control over Palestine at the end of 1917 with the disintegration of the Ottoman Empire, they applied the Ottoman laws of the Ottoman Land Code of 1858 to all inhabitants.[22] The laws then in place were officially recognized by Article 46 of the King’s Speech (enacted in the name of King George V on 10 August 1922, Palestine Order in Council), according to which provisions the validity of the Ottoman law that existed in Palestine on November 1, 1914, was recognized, and made subject to orders and regulations issued from then on by the mandate government.[23]
The Ottoman Land Code inherited by the British prescribed that houses were mostly privately owned and called “mulk land” (land vested fully and completely to their owners), while land was viewed as miri (allotted by the state to a village or number of villages and which cannot be private property of individuals), and is only leased to the tenants of indefinite duration, in which the lease is represented by the obligation to pay land taxes and land registry fees.[24] When the miri interest is alienated, the ultimate ownership called raqaba is retained by the State. . . .”
The Zionists have not only stolen the land but also destroy evidence of who actually had a right to it before the theft actions. Bombing homes in Gaza is surely destroying what little evidence of true ownership might have survived. Theyh are creating a tabula rasa: A land with no people for a people with no land. Except that now the no-landers have seized all the land.

Posted by: Jane | Oct 15 2023 18:18 utc | 294

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KopLFXcjGGA&t=13s
quite a resume…
INDY
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 15 2023 14:39 utc | 89
++++++++++++++++
I guess the speaker’s name is Shahid. So thanks for that.
However, trying to watch and read the video gave me a headache.

Posted by: Jane | Oct 15 2023 18:26 utc | 295

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KopLFXcjGGA&t=13s
quite a resume…
INDY
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Oct 15 2023 14:39 utc | 89
++++++++++++++++
I guess the speaker’s name is Shahid. So thanks for that.
However, trying to watch and read the video gave me a headache.

Posted by: Jane | Oct 15 2023 18:26 utc | 296

@77 George
I am blown away George. That link to the Middle Nation video has made my day and I’m certain that this guy has the REAL picture of what should happen with Israel, with that region. I spewed Buble all over my keyboard when I heard him say that most young Israelis today just want to lay on the beach and smoke hashish all day. That was hilarious AND IMO that is wonderful to hear!! I believe this gentleman is sound in his assessment as I watched the other Middle Nation video as to Who is Middle Nation.

Posted by: bisfugged | Oct 15 2023 18:28 utc | 297

@77 George
I am blown away George. That link to the Middle Nation video has made my day and I’m certain that this guy has the REAL picture of what should happen with Israel, with that region. I spewed Buble all over my keyboard when I heard him say that most young Israelis today just want to lay on the beach and smoke hashish all day. That was hilarious AND IMO that is wonderful to hear!! I believe this gentleman is sound in his assessment as I watched the other Middle Nation video as to Who is Middle Nation.

Posted by: bisfugged | Oct 15 2023 18:28 utc | 298

The defanging of the West as led by NATO has rapidly accelerated since it’s looming strategic defeat in Ukraine has become increasingly obvious to everyone. A future world in which the US no longer controls everything is calamitous to the future of Israel remaining viable under the terms of its existence since 1948. So Israel is acting now in the manner it is because it may literally be its last chance before it finds itself on its own.

Posted by: JohnG | Oct 15 2023 18:29 utc | 299

The defanging of the West as led by NATO has rapidly accelerated since it’s looming strategic defeat in Ukraine has become increasingly obvious to everyone. A future world in which the US no longer controls everything is calamitous to the future of Israel remaining viable under the terms of its existence since 1948. So Israel is acting now in the manner it is because it may literally be its last chance before it finds itself on its own.

Posted by: JohnG | Oct 15 2023 18:29 utc | 300