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September 30, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-227
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To me, the delicate moment in this war is when the Ucrainian army admits defeat. At the moment the Ukrainian army stands down, NATO has to decide whether to cut its losses and leave, or to send in NATO soldiers.
If the UK sends soldiers to Ukraine now, then the UK is purposefully opening the way for NATO to send in more soldiers.
Posted by: Passerby | Oct 1 2023 11:50 utc | 301
To me, the delicate moment in this war is when the Ucrainian army admits defeat. At the moment the Ukrainian army stands down, NATO has to decide whether to cut its losses and leave, or to send in NATO soldiers.
If the UK sends soldiers to Ukraine now, then the UK is purposefully opening the way for NATO to send in more soldiers.
Posted by: Passerby | Oct 1 2023 11:50 utc | 302
Posted by: unimperator | Oct 1 2023 8:23 utc | 138
The British are hoping to get a declaration of war, as they have the meat shields in Poland and Finland (and maybe some in Romania).
There is no way to prop up the Ukro regime any more in the current configuration. US/UK either need to attack Russia or go home. Well, they already have been attacking targets in Crimea for a while, but that doesn’t yet warrant full obliteration of Nato. So the British see there’s no risk in attacking Crimea and MSM considers the fact that London hasn’t been nuked yet, as a major victory for the west.
But luckily they are keeping the eyes on the ball. A few British ships getting sunk would probably be decent payback, but payback is best served cold, already somewhat forgotten.
You are certainly talking about the statements from the UK’s secretary of war, Grant Shapps. I can see their need to keep the conflict going. Are they truly gambling that a few sunk British ships will move the war effort forward, especially on the home front? When Thatcher started the war on the Malvines to get re-elected (with success), the stakes were much lower.
I wonder for a while if/when the Russians will start clandestine against UK. There was the accident on the carrier Prince of Wales that had technical issues in spring of 2020…
Contrasted with yesterday’s news about Ukaine money removed from the US budget, the Shapps statement sounds like a warmonger in despair. I hope there is not more to it.
Posted by: Konami | Oct 1 2023 11:58 utc | 303
Posted by: unimperator | Oct 1 2023 8:23 utc | 138
The British are hoping to get a declaration of war, as they have the meat shields in Poland and Finland (and maybe some in Romania).
There is no way to prop up the Ukro regime any more in the current configuration. US/UK either need to attack Russia or go home. Well, they already have been attacking targets in Crimea for a while, but that doesn’t yet warrant full obliteration of Nato. So the British see there’s no risk in attacking Crimea and MSM considers the fact that London hasn’t been nuked yet, as a major victory for the west.
But luckily they are keeping the eyes on the ball. A few British ships getting sunk would probably be decent payback, but payback is best served cold, already somewhat forgotten.
You are certainly talking about the statements from the UK’s secretary of war, Grant Shapps. I can see their need to keep the conflict going. Are they truly gambling that a few sunk British ships will move the war effort forward, especially on the home front? When Thatcher started the war on the Malvines to get re-elected (with success), the stakes were much lower.
I wonder for a while if/when the Russians will start clandestine against UK. There was the accident on the carrier Prince of Wales that had technical issues in spring of 2020…
Contrasted with yesterday’s news about Ukaine money removed from the US budget, the Shapps statement sounds like a warmonger in despair. I hope there is not more to it.
Posted by: Konami | Oct 1 2023 11:58 utc | 304
Apparently Sunak and Shapps not on the same page about British soldiers training Ukes in Ukraine..
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12579457/grant-shapps-british-troops-ukraine-deliver-training-kyiv.html
Apparently Sunak and Shapps not on the same page about British soldiers training Ukes in Ukraine..
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12579457/grant-shapps-british-troops-ukraine-deliver-training-kyiv.html
@146 “Even with the huge US MIC and military budget, the highest in its history, ..”
That is an incorrect statement. Yes, in nominal terms the present US defense budget is the largest but to compare the defense spending of the US over time one will see that in 1962 the US defense budget was 9.33% of GDP and in 2021 that percentage of GDP was 3.48%
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget
@146 “Even with the huge US MIC and military budget, the highest in its history, ..”
That is an incorrect statement. Yes, in nominal terms the present US defense budget is the largest but to compare the defense spending of the US over time one will see that in 1962 the US defense budget was 9.33% of GDP and in 2021 that percentage of GDP was 3.48%
https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/USA/united-states/military-spending-defense-budget
canuck @ 153
Apparently Sunak and Shapps not on the same page about British soldiers training Ukes in Ukraine.
Approaching two years. Still falling for it?
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Oct 1 2023 12:15 utc | 309
canuck @ 153
Apparently Sunak and Shapps not on the same page about British soldiers training Ukes in Ukraine.
Approaching two years. Still falling for it?
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Oct 1 2023 12:15 utc | 310
Objective assessments make no bones about this sort of thing, and note that the subject is described as a traitor rather than a mere crook or incompetent, which would be bad enough. It is only to be encouraged that the “west” has its own examples of the same type.
https://t.me/llordofwar/209100
Indeed, a week ago I learned that a decision had been made to remove the brigade commander of the 205th brigade (Skif) of the Southern Military District. And I completely agree with comrade Romanov that in this case, truth and justice triumphed, and this is also an indicator that modern SMERSH (counterintelligence) works and no connections and resources deployed by the presumptuous and lying brigade commander helped him. And according to our information, the resource was turned on a lot, since even staged videos were filmed and shown in top channels.
But for me, this information does not make the morning good. The removal of the brigade commander is correct, but, firstly, he is a product of the modern system, in which superiors treat a person as a silent slave, that is, sometimes worse than animals, and secondly, there are still many such commanders in the army, and in the whole department, thirdly, the bad thing is that the army itself has not yet begun to cleanse itself and high leaders only react to situations that come out to the people, and do not themselves take the initiative to increase the professionalism, honesty and patriotism of commanders and cleanse the army of tyrants and traitors, fourthly, there is no confidence that the situation in the brigade will become radically better, taking into account the general situation with management in those directions, and not only in them.
And, of course, it has long been necessary to increase the counterintelligence staff, because it was formed during peacetime, but now the workload has increased manifold and there are hardly enough resources to proactively identify traitors.
Posted by: anon | Oct 1 2023 12:45 utc | 311
Objective assessments make no bones about this sort of thing, and note that the subject is described as a traitor rather than a mere crook or incompetent, which would be bad enough. It is only to be encouraged that the “west” has its own examples of the same type.
https://t.me/llordofwar/209100
Indeed, a week ago I learned that a decision had been made to remove the brigade commander of the 205th brigade (Skif) of the Southern Military District. And I completely agree with comrade Romanov that in this case, truth and justice triumphed, and this is also an indicator that modern SMERSH (counterintelligence) works and no connections and resources deployed by the presumptuous and lying brigade commander helped him. And according to our information, the resource was turned on a lot, since even staged videos were filmed and shown in top channels.
But for me, this information does not make the morning good. The removal of the brigade commander is correct, but, firstly, he is a product of the modern system, in which superiors treat a person as a silent slave, that is, sometimes worse than animals, and secondly, there are still many such commanders in the army, and in the whole department, thirdly, the bad thing is that the army itself has not yet begun to cleanse itself and high leaders only react to situations that come out to the people, and do not themselves take the initiative to increase the professionalism, honesty and patriotism of commanders and cleanse the army of tyrants and traitors, fourthly, there is no confidence that the situation in the brigade will become radically better, taking into account the general situation with management in those directions, and not only in them.
And, of course, it has long been necessary to increase the counterintelligence staff, because it was formed during peacetime, but now the workload has increased manifold and there are hardly enough resources to proactively identify traitors.
Posted by: anon | Oct 1 2023 12:45 utc | 312
RE: “As for the smash and grabs, power to the people, why should only the elites be allowed to smash and grab?”
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Oct 1 2023 8:59 utc | 139
Well, this is certainly the thinking right now in Philadelphia & elsewhere. The “lawlessness” from “top-down” is the message. The “governance” right now is thinking when it all implodes the “military” will ride in and save them. But frankly, I’m not so sure of that. I know a lot of military people who are just as fed up as us civilians. It’s a coin toss as to whether they’d jump in and roll down our streets bringing “order” or whether they’d overthrow the governance themselves at this point.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 1 2023 12:48 utc | 313
RE: “As for the smash and grabs, power to the people, why should only the elites be allowed to smash and grab?”
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Oct 1 2023 8:59 utc | 139
Well, this is certainly the thinking right now in Philadelphia & elsewhere. The “lawlessness” from “top-down” is the message. The “governance” right now is thinking when it all implodes the “military” will ride in and save them. But frankly, I’m not so sure of that. I know a lot of military people who are just as fed up as us civilians. It’s a coin toss as to whether they’d jump in and roll down our streets bringing “order” or whether they’d overthrow the governance themselves at this point.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 1 2023 12:48 utc | 314
When Thatcher started the war on the Malvines to get re-elected (with success)
Posted by: Konami | Oct 1 2023 11:58 utc | 152
Thatcher prosecuted the war with vigour but I don’t think she started it. That was entirely the decision of the Argentinian government
Posted by: TheNorthernChef | Oct 1 2023 13:01 utc | 315
When Thatcher started the war on the Malvines to get re-elected (with success)
Posted by: Konami | Oct 1 2023 11:58 utc | 152
Thatcher prosecuted the war with vigour but I don’t think she started it. That was entirely the decision of the Argentinian government
Posted by: TheNorthernChef | Oct 1 2023 13:01 utc | 316
Ukraine Weekly Update – May be Useful to Some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-weekly-update-93c
Posted by: Robert Hamilton Camp | Oct 1 2023 13:07 utc | 317
Ukraine Weekly Update – May be Useful to Some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-weekly-update-93c
Posted by: Robert Hamilton Camp | Oct 1 2023 13:07 utc | 318
Jo @150
Yes, I agree with you about George Eliason. I was a bit taken aback by his latest broadcast – that’s why I came looking for some additional feedback. He spent almost an hour denigrating Hersh’s Nord Stream argument in quite strong language. (Of course, Hersh is fair game.) Eliason claimed a raft of evidence for his own position but didn’t present much if any of it as far as I could hear. It’s hard to see all that as a bit of a “wayward slip” in passing.
Listen to his Sep 30 podcast via my original post. I might tune in occasionally, but I’ve lost confidence in him for the moment.
Posted by: echelon | Oct 1 2023 13:43 utc | 319
Jo @150
Yes, I agree with you about George Eliason. I was a bit taken aback by his latest broadcast – that’s why I came looking for some additional feedback. He spent almost an hour denigrating Hersh’s Nord Stream argument in quite strong language. (Of course, Hersh is fair game.) Eliason claimed a raft of evidence for his own position but didn’t present much if any of it as far as I could hear. It’s hard to see all that as a bit of a “wayward slip” in passing.
Listen to his Sep 30 podcast via my original post. I might tune in occasionally, but I’ve lost confidence in him for the moment.
Posted by: echelon | Oct 1 2023 13:43 utc | 320
. . . excellent use of the chrono-synclastic infundibulum.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 30 2023 20:58 utc | 68
Works for me, although at the time I wrote that comment it seemed like I was putting the cart before the horse but was too lazy to rewrite it. Now I realize that I was just stepping out of the linear, unidirectional concept of time for a moment.
Posted by: Spinworthy | Sep 30 2023 23:08 utc | 89
There is a resemblance of Bolton with TR, and both are/were batshit crazy warmongers. And Vonnegut is a worthy successor of Twain, IMO.
Posted by: Mike R | Oct 1 2023 14:07 utc | 321
. . . excellent use of the chrono-synclastic infundibulum.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 30 2023 20:58 utc | 68
Works for me, although at the time I wrote that comment it seemed like I was putting the cart before the horse but was too lazy to rewrite it. Now I realize that I was just stepping out of the linear, unidirectional concept of time for a moment.
Posted by: Spinworthy | Sep 30 2023 23:08 utc | 89
There is a resemblance of Bolton with TR, and both are/were batshit crazy warmongers. And Vonnegut is a worthy successor of Twain, IMO.
Posted by: Mike R | Oct 1 2023 14:07 utc | 322
As cynical as I am, and moreso as I age, I do not ever want to reach the stage that I dismiss a beautifully simple plea for peace.
Thank you Peace, at post 102. Yes: “Please Peace.”
Sometimes a simple pause to reflect is what we need to make it another day, to try again, & to dream of hope.
Posted by: titmouse | Oct 1 2023 15:14 utc | 323
As cynical as I am, and moreso as I age, I do not ever want to reach the stage that I dismiss a beautifully simple plea for peace.
Thank you Peace, at post 102. Yes: “Please Peace.”
Sometimes a simple pause to reflect is what we need to make it another day, to try again, & to dream of hope.
Posted by: titmouse | Oct 1 2023 15:14 utc | 324
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Oct 1 2023 12:15 utc | 156
2024 is election year in the UK, and the less than Prime Minister is already rowing back on unpopular policies. Contrary to most posters assertions, most UK citizens are a) not idiots, b) increasingly aware that something is not right in the State of Albion, c) increasingly pissed off with the government’s priorities. It maybe part of the clever, clever shell game, but it equally might be a response to HMG’s UK/Ukrainian involvement becoming more politically toxic, as has happened in the US.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 1 2023 12:48 utc | 158
The Cloward-Piven strategy is working as designed, with the nice spin that the rioters and looters are really seeking reparations. What posters, who justify this lawlessness forget, is that the response to such outbreaks is businesses closing, the areas become staple-food and basic commodities deserts and the communities hit hardest are the minority ones. Just like the morons who celebrated the institutionally sponsored BLM riots that targeted small, sole-ownership, black businesses who rarely had any insurance or large chains that supported the local population. Still, a lot of smug middle-class trust fund revolutionaries felt better, and that’s what really matters eh?
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 15:23 utc | 325
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Oct 1 2023 12:15 utc | 156
2024 is election year in the UK, and the less than Prime Minister is already rowing back on unpopular policies. Contrary to most posters assertions, most UK citizens are a) not idiots, b) increasingly aware that something is not right in the State of Albion, c) increasingly pissed off with the government’s priorities. It maybe part of the clever, clever shell game, but it equally might be a response to HMG’s UK/Ukrainian involvement becoming more politically toxic, as has happened in the US.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Oct 1 2023 12:48 utc | 158
The Cloward-Piven strategy is working as designed, with the nice spin that the rioters and looters are really seeking reparations. What posters, who justify this lawlessness forget, is that the response to such outbreaks is businesses closing, the areas become staple-food and basic commodities deserts and the communities hit hardest are the minority ones. Just like the morons who celebrated the institutionally sponsored BLM riots that targeted small, sole-ownership, black businesses who rarely had any insurance or large chains that supported the local population. Still, a lot of smug middle-class trust fund revolutionaries felt better, and that’s what really matters eh?
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 15:23 utc | 326
The Cloward-Piven strategy is working as designed
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 15:23 utc | 164
So people would get UBI?
Sounds overly idealistic.
When it comes to food deserts, the more important reason may simply be lower incomes.
Liberals do not want to talk about income inequality; they only want to solve the problem through neoliberal personal responsibility and “more choice”:
Posted by: Colin | Oct 1 2023 16:38 utc | 327
The Cloward-Piven strategy is working as designed
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 15:23 utc | 164
So people would get UBI?
Sounds overly idealistic.
When it comes to food deserts, the more important reason may simply be lower incomes.
Liberals do not want to talk about income inequality; they only want to solve the problem through neoliberal personal responsibility and “more choice”:
Posted by: Colin | Oct 1 2023 16:38 utc | 328
Posted by: Colin | Oct 1 2023 16:38 utc | 164
No, the black communities affected, although struggling under inflation, are already telling stories about having to go long distances for basics, which eats into already strained budgets. UBI would be the end of America and hardly anyone would overtly campaign for it, apart from the usual suspects, so the C-P strategy is to enable it by fait-accompli. The entire neo-Liberal project towards minorities has been the exact opposite of encouraging ‘personal responsibility’, targeted groups have been actively encouraged, along with their liberal co-allies, to see all their problems as stemming from ‘racism’ that only centralised government can deal with.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 329
Posted by: Colin | Oct 1 2023 16:38 utc | 164
No, the black communities affected, although struggling under inflation, are already telling stories about having to go long distances for basics, which eats into already strained budgets. UBI would be the end of America and hardly anyone would overtly campaign for it, apart from the usual suspects, so the C-P strategy is to enable it by fait-accompli. The entire neo-Liberal project towards minorities has been the exact opposite of encouraging ‘personal responsibility’, targeted groups have been actively encouraged, along with their liberal co-allies, to see all their problems as stemming from ‘racism’ that only centralised government can deal with.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 330
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
LOL what a crock. you dont want to talk about income inequality either.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 1 2023 18:21 utc | 331
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
LOL what a crock. you dont want to talk about income inequality either.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 1 2023 18:21 utc | 332
Posted by: Hankster | Oct 1 2023 8:04 utc | 134
i dont think grunts make big money.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 1 2023 18:28 utc | 333
Posted by: Hankster | Oct 1 2023 8:04 utc | 134
i dont think grunts make big money.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 1 2023 18:28 utc | 334
Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 1 2023 18:21 utc | 166
Keep going with that paternalistic and patronising attitude and see where it gets you, certainly not to the Communist never-never land you so fervently hope for. I guess the site of hordes of black people rampaging through stores might also have the added benefit, for the Democrats, of stripping them of some of their humanity, in the minds of neutral observers.
Income inequality, is this part of Marxism Inc’s rebranding exercise, rather like equity replacing equality? There is, of course an easy solution, but highly unpalatable and is far from equitable, but will certainly separate the true believers from the imposters.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 20:09 utc | 335
Posted by: pretzelattack | Oct 1 2023 18:21 utc | 166
Keep going with that paternalistic and patronising attitude and see where it gets you, certainly not to the Communist never-never land you so fervently hope for. I guess the site of hordes of black people rampaging through stores might also have the added benefit, for the Democrats, of stripping them of some of their humanity, in the minds of neutral observers.
Income inequality, is this part of Marxism Inc’s rebranding exercise, rather like equity replacing equality? There is, of course an easy solution, but highly unpalatable and is far from equitable, but will certainly separate the true believers from the imposters.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 20:09 utc | 336
Biswapriya Purkayast | Oct 1 2023 3:34 utc | 119
*** Shapps was in Kiev last week meeting President Zelensky, where he reportedly spoke about using the British Navy to defend commercial vessels in the Black Sea.
Both moves would be a significant escalation from Westminster.***
The London regime wants to order “attack submarines” (who from — Germany, France or South Korea?) as well …. and there will already be huge bills for F-35 flying scrapheaps, and US nuclear missiles pretending to be “British”.
Infrastructure in the UK is collapsing. Dangerously rotten concrete in schools and hospitals, roads full of deep holes and tattered surfaces, and a hugely over-managerialised NHS just about staggering on in an ever worse mess (but never mind, let’s give Pfizer more billons and see if US hedge funds fancy gambling on patients).
Society is crumbling, illegal immigrants flood in, wokism abounds and supposedly ‘green’ nut cases demand to “re-wild” land on which food is grown. As if potentially freezing much of the populaton to death plus depriving them of transportation wasn’t enough; praise be to the “global warmist” lobby. But it is the top Whitehall bureaucracy and government itself that almost invariably turns out to be the ultimate sponsor of such campaigns, along with transnational big-business — despite ‘leading’ politicians often trying to project an opposite illusion.
Why are they intent onh having a war with Russia? What Shapps has now said suggests the murderous scum who spent eight years shelling the civilians of Donetsk and Lugansk may have been UK trained (and possibly even commanded).
The USA — or more accurately, those who rule it — has an empire. The UK no longer has an empire. So why — other than corrution and treason — would the UK political establishment seek a war on behalf of a foreign power?
Billions of pounds to the disgusting little cokehead and his criminal gang in Kiev …. but when it comes to fixing the internals of Britain itself, or helping the indigenous population (distinctly abnormal specimens excepted) expect the usual UK government crap that “there’s no money available” and “there’s no money-tree”.
The mass-media will, of course, ask no difficult questions.
Posted by: Cynic | Oct 1 2023 20:26 utc | 337
Biswapriya Purkayast | Oct 1 2023 3:34 utc | 119
*** Shapps was in Kiev last week meeting President Zelensky, where he reportedly spoke about using the British Navy to defend commercial vessels in the Black Sea.
Both moves would be a significant escalation from Westminster.***
The London regime wants to order “attack submarines” (who from — Germany, France or South Korea?) as well …. and there will already be huge bills for F-35 flying scrapheaps, and US nuclear missiles pretending to be “British”.
Infrastructure in the UK is collapsing. Dangerously rotten concrete in schools and hospitals, roads full of deep holes and tattered surfaces, and a hugely over-managerialised NHS just about staggering on in an ever worse mess (but never mind, let’s give Pfizer more billons and see if US hedge funds fancy gambling on patients).
Society is crumbling, illegal immigrants flood in, wokism abounds and supposedly ‘green’ nut cases demand to “re-wild” land on which food is grown. As if potentially freezing much of the populaton to death plus depriving them of transportation wasn’t enough; praise be to the “global warmist” lobby. But it is the top Whitehall bureaucracy and government itself that almost invariably turns out to be the ultimate sponsor of such campaigns, along with transnational big-business — despite ‘leading’ politicians often trying to project an opposite illusion.
Why are they intent onh having a war with Russia? What Shapps has now said suggests the murderous scum who spent eight years shelling the civilians of Donetsk and Lugansk may have been UK trained (and possibly even commanded).
The USA — or more accurately, those who rule it — has an empire. The UK no longer has an empire. So why — other than corrution and treason — would the UK political establishment seek a war on behalf of a foreign power?
Billions of pounds to the disgusting little cokehead and his criminal gang in Kiev …. but when it comes to fixing the internals of Britain itself, or helping the indigenous population (distinctly abnormal specimens excepted) expect the usual UK government crap that “there’s no money available” and “there’s no money-tree”.
The mass-media will, of course, ask no difficult questions.
Posted by: Cynic | Oct 1 2023 20:26 utc | 338
Posted by: Cynic | Oct 1 2023 20:26 utc | 169
Elections tend to temporarily focus minds in Government and the Admiralty must have collectively gasped at Shapp’s suggestions. Don’t forget the head of the Armed Forces is an admiral, more interested in racial quotas and being socially inclusive, not testing his dwindling fleet against hypersonic missiles, wake-homing torpedoes and swarms of drones in the waters of the Black Sea, even if Turkey acquiesced to his proposal.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 21:27 utc | 339
Posted by: Cynic | Oct 1 2023 20:26 utc | 169
Elections tend to temporarily focus minds in Government and the Admiralty must have collectively gasped at Shapp’s suggestions. Don’t forget the head of the Armed Forces is an admiral, more interested in racial quotas and being socially inclusive, not testing his dwindling fleet against hypersonic missiles, wake-homing torpedoes and swarms of drones in the waters of the Black Sea, even if Turkey acquiesced to his proposal.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 21:27 utc | 340
TheNorthernChef | Oct 1 2023 13:01 utc | 158
*** Thatcher prosecuted the war with vigour but I don’t think she started it. That was entirely the decision of the Argentinian government ***
A military regime heavily in debt and under pressure from General North in the USA, who had expected Argentinian victory, or at worst joint-sovereignty, thanks to Lord Carrington and the UK Foreign Office.
US multinationals had just a few weeks before the invasion been arranging drilling rights in the Falklands / South Georgia area with the Argentinian government.
When news of the invasion arrived, Thatcher was caught by surprise (live on mass-media) and had pretty well declared war on the invaders before she could be instructed otherwise by Whitehall.
The US plan having been thwarted, and the US then having had no option than to pretend to support the UK, North called Carrington a “duplicitous bastard”.
Posted by: Cynic | Oct 1 2023 22:09 utc | 341
TheNorthernChef | Oct 1 2023 13:01 utc | 158
*** Thatcher prosecuted the war with vigour but I don’t think she started it. That was entirely the decision of the Argentinian government ***
A military regime heavily in debt and under pressure from General North in the USA, who had expected Argentinian victory, or at worst joint-sovereignty, thanks to Lord Carrington and the UK Foreign Office.
US multinationals had just a few weeks before the invasion been arranging drilling rights in the Falklands / South Georgia area with the Argentinian government.
When news of the invasion arrived, Thatcher was caught by surprise (live on mass-media) and had pretty well declared war on the invaders before she could be instructed otherwise by Whitehall.
The US plan having been thwarted, and the US then having had no option than to pretend to support the UK, North called Carrington a “duplicitous bastard”.
Posted by: Cynic | Oct 1 2023 22:09 utc | 342
Posted by: Cynic | Oct 1 2023 22:09 utc | 171
There was no pretence in support for the UK, (Reagan liked her) even the French helped the Brits! Key US support was ISR, logistics and supplying the latest version of the AIM-9 which went a long way to mitigate the Sea Harriers known vulnerabilities.
Without US covert support it’s doubtful the UK attempt to retake the islands would have succeeded and Michael Foot could have become PM! I guess the champagne would have been popping in the VZ HQ intelligence at that outcome, but not so in Washington.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 23:44 utc | 343
Posted by: Cynic | Oct 1 2023 22:09 utc | 171
There was no pretence in support for the UK, (Reagan liked her) even the French helped the Brits! Key US support was ISR, logistics and supplying the latest version of the AIM-9 which went a long way to mitigate the Sea Harriers known vulnerabilities.
Without US covert support it’s doubtful the UK attempt to retake the islands would have succeeded and Michael Foot could have become PM! I guess the champagne would have been popping in the VZ HQ intelligence at that outcome, but not so in Washington.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 23:44 utc | 344
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
The purpose of the Cloward-Piven strategy is UBI. so if you think it’s doing well, then that obviously means that UBI is close to being realized, otherwise it’s not working well at all.
Studies tend to point out that even if fresh food stores were established in food deserts, there would be little change in residents’ consumption of food.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 20:09 utc | 168
Equity just means the exact opposite of what you want it to mean lol
When it’s scary for you to talk about income inequality, that means it’s even more impossible for you to care about real equity.
Income inequality has not even touched on the issues of reparations for slavery and justice in the history of settler colonization. Are you sure you really want equity?
You’re just equating the fact that your ignorance and wrong narratives are being exposed with paternalism and patronising attitude, but it’s what you deserved and a part of real equity.
In fact, the current U.S. government is woefully understaffed compared to the 1960s when the Cloward-Piven strategy was published and the current situation needs a larger government workers than was needed then. However, current neoliberal propaganda still insanely characterizes the problem as the government being too big LMFAO
Of course, Fascist Italy, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany tried this small government approach, which hastened their demise in the war.
Maybe that’s not a bad thing for the elimination of American hegemony, but the poor black people you pretend to sympathize with aren’t very happy about its consequences.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 0:36 utc | 345
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
The purpose of the Cloward-Piven strategy is UBI. so if you think it’s doing well, then that obviously means that UBI is close to being realized, otherwise it’s not working well at all.
Studies tend to point out that even if fresh food stores were established in food deserts, there would be little change in residents’ consumption of food.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 20:09 utc | 168
Equity just means the exact opposite of what you want it to mean lol
When it’s scary for you to talk about income inequality, that means it’s even more impossible for you to care about real equity.
Income inequality has not even touched on the issues of reparations for slavery and justice in the history of settler colonization. Are you sure you really want equity?
You’re just equating the fact that your ignorance and wrong narratives are being exposed with paternalism and patronising attitude, but it’s what you deserved and a part of real equity.
In fact, the current U.S. government is woefully understaffed compared to the 1960s when the Cloward-Piven strategy was published and the current situation needs a larger government workers than was needed then. However, current neoliberal propaganda still insanely characterizes the problem as the government being too big LMFAO
Of course, Fascist Italy, Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany tried this small government approach, which hastened their demise in the war.
Maybe that’s not a bad thing for the elimination of American hegemony, but the poor black people you pretend to sympathize with aren’t very happy about its consequences.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 0:36 utc | 346
UBI would be the end of America
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
Btw, don’t tempt me with that LMFAO
apart from the usual suspects, so the C-P strategy is to enable it by fait-accompli.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
I’m glad you found out that Andrew Young is a real communist /s. Supposedly you think it tests whether people are really communists, it seems that people like me who think that UBI is still just a deceptive and misguided program of neoliberalists aren’t really communists instead LMFAO
The entire neo-Liberal project towards minorities has been the exact opposite of encouraging ‘personal responsibility’,
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
Advocating that minorities be allowed to take out loans to buy private housing instead of even government-provided public housing as in Europe must not be emphasizing personal responsibility LMFAO
stripping them of some of their humanity, in the minds of neutral observers.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
No need to make excuses for your entrenched racist thoughts and fabricate false “neutral observer” identity for your convenience.
All in all, you’ve once again made a good case here for why the petit bourgeoisie is the class base of fascism.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 0:55 utc | 347
UBI would be the end of America
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
Btw, don’t tempt me with that LMFAO
apart from the usual suspects, so the C-P strategy is to enable it by fait-accompli.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
I’m glad you found out that Andrew Young is a real communist /s. Supposedly you think it tests whether people are really communists, it seems that people like me who think that UBI is still just a deceptive and misguided program of neoliberalists aren’t really communists instead LMFAO
The entire neo-Liberal project towards minorities has been the exact opposite of encouraging ‘personal responsibility’,
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
Advocating that minorities be allowed to take out loans to buy private housing instead of even government-provided public housing as in Europe must not be emphasizing personal responsibility LMFAO
stripping them of some of their humanity, in the minds of neutral observers.
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
No need to make excuses for your entrenched racist thoughts and fabricate false “neutral observer” identity for your convenience.
All in all, you’ve once again made a good case here for why the petit bourgeoisie is the class base of fascism.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 0:55 utc | 348
Even in the realm of personal responsibility, it’s evident that the working class has borne a disproportionate burden. The true lack of personal responsibility lies with the bourgeoisie. Take Peter Thiel, for instance; he often champions personal responsibility while disapproving of the working class, yet he refuses to acknowledge his role in the failure of banks where his investments were placed. Instead, he insists that government institutions should bear the consequences.
In tackling the issue of unhealthy eating, the most effective solution is to relieve the working class from the responsibility that the bourgeoisie has unfairly shifted onto them. Continuously supporting the capitalized food industry while only lamenting the limited food choices amounts to neoliberalism, perpetuating the bourgeoisie’s tendency to pass their responsibilities onto the working class and individual workers.
It’s essential to recognize that criticizing this approach doesn’t signify a disregard for personal responsibility. It merely reveals a desire to prevent further burdening the working class, especially minority workers, with responsibilities that already weigh them down.
The petty bourgeoisie also frequently shirks responsibility for their potential bankruptcy, either from choosing the wrong path or sticking to it. They tend to attribute their problems to an inability to fully evade taxes, the working class’s access to welfare, and the government’s size, despite enjoying favorable tax positions and policy support. While some innovative startups aside, most small businesses lack the innovation of larger ones. However, these advantages don’t compensate for their disadvantaged position and poor decision-making. They often blame external factors such as government, bureaucracy, welfare, the working class, and even criminals, but rarely acknowledge their individual incompetence and mistakes. This arrogant stance undermines the principle of personal responsibility.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 3:11 utc | 349
Even in the realm of personal responsibility, it’s evident that the working class has borne a disproportionate burden. The true lack of personal responsibility lies with the bourgeoisie. Take Peter Thiel, for instance; he often champions personal responsibility while disapproving of the working class, yet he refuses to acknowledge his role in the failure of banks where his investments were placed. Instead, he insists that government institutions should bear the consequences.
In tackling the issue of unhealthy eating, the most effective solution is to relieve the working class from the responsibility that the bourgeoisie has unfairly shifted onto them. Continuously supporting the capitalized food industry while only lamenting the limited food choices amounts to neoliberalism, perpetuating the bourgeoisie’s tendency to pass their responsibilities onto the working class and individual workers.
It’s essential to recognize that criticizing this approach doesn’t signify a disregard for personal responsibility. It merely reveals a desire to prevent further burdening the working class, especially minority workers, with responsibilities that already weigh them down.
The petty bourgeoisie also frequently shirks responsibility for their potential bankruptcy, either from choosing the wrong path or sticking to it. They tend to attribute their problems to an inability to fully evade taxes, the working class’s access to welfare, and the government’s size, despite enjoying favorable tax positions and policy support. While some innovative startups aside, most small businesses lack the innovation of larger ones. However, these advantages don’t compensate for their disadvantaged position and poor decision-making. They often blame external factors such as government, bureaucracy, welfare, the working class, and even criminals, but rarely acknowledge their individual incompetence and mistakes. This arrogant stance undermines the principle of personal responsibility.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 3:11 utc | 350
The entire neo-Liberal project towards minorities has been the exact opposite of encouraging ‘personal responsibility’
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
Indeed, this neoliberal approach to responsibility is the exact opposite of true personal responsibility. It’s all about the bourgeoisie shirking their personal responsibility and making the proletariat take on responsibilities that don’t belong to them.
When the proletariat gets into trouble under the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, the bourgeoisie says: “No, it’s all because the poor are lazy, stupid and don’t take their own personal responsibilities.”
When the bourgeoisie is in trouble under the dictatorship of the proletariat because of the proletariat, the bourgeoisie says, “Blame it on the paternalism and patronising attitudes of the damned communists! I don’t have to take any personal responsibility for it!”
Maybe the Tsar should be kicking himself that he didn’t hand over power to the communists in time and was therefore killed by the Reds, right? He could have made the right and rational personal choice and didn’t so his death was entirely his personal responsibility.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 3:34 utc | 351
The entire neo-Liberal project towards minorities has been the exact opposite of encouraging ‘personal responsibility’
Posted by: Milites | Oct 1 2023 18:02 utc | 165
Indeed, this neoliberal approach to responsibility is the exact opposite of true personal responsibility. It’s all about the bourgeoisie shirking their personal responsibility and making the proletariat take on responsibilities that don’t belong to them.
When the proletariat gets into trouble under the dictatorship of the bourgeoisie, the bourgeoisie says: “No, it’s all because the poor are lazy, stupid and don’t take their own personal responsibilities.”
When the bourgeoisie is in trouble under the dictatorship of the proletariat because of the proletariat, the bourgeoisie says, “Blame it on the paternalism and patronising attitudes of the damned communists! I don’t have to take any personal responsibility for it!”
Maybe the Tsar should be kicking himself that he didn’t hand over power to the communists in time and was therefore killed by the Reds, right? He could have made the right and rational personal choice and didn’t so his death was entirely his personal responsibility.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 3:34 utc | 352
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 3:34 utc | 176
Loony Commie.
Posted by: Stones | Oct 2 2023 3:52 utc | 353
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 3:34 utc | 176
Loony Commie.
Posted by: Stones | Oct 2 2023 3:52 utc | 354
@Stones
Colin’s playing the role of John Candy in Volunteers for us.
Posted by: Fred777 | Oct 2 2023 10:11 utc | 355
@Stones
Colin’s playing the role of John Candy in Volunteers for us.
Posted by: Fred777 | Oct 2 2023 10:11 utc | 356
Posted by: Stones | Oct 2 2023 3:52 utc | 177
What a wonderful compliment!
There’s something wrong with communists if they don’t get called names.
Posted by: Fred777 | Oct 2 2023 10:11 utc | 178
Glad you don’t even know what you’re talking about.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 15:51 utc | 357
Posted by: Stones | Oct 2 2023 3:52 utc | 177
What a wonderful compliment!
There’s something wrong with communists if they don’t get called names.
Posted by: Fred777 | Oct 2 2023 10:11 utc | 178
Glad you don’t even know what you’re talking about.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 15:51 utc | 358
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 15:51 utc | 179
Don’t you have an assignment to hand in soon? I’d always leave it till the morning it was due in before putting pen to paper, fortified by a family pack of Minstrels, happy days!
Posted by: Milites | Oct 2 2023 16:32 utc | 359
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 15:51 utc | 179
Don’t you have an assignment to hand in soon? I’d always leave it till the morning it was due in before putting pen to paper, fortified by a family pack of Minstrels, happy days!
Posted by: Milites | Oct 2 2023 16:32 utc | 360