Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 20, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-221

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Comments

@Pacifica – yeah Bro this is the Ukraine thread.

Posted by: Featherless | Sep 21 2023 20:35 utc | 501

@Pacifica – yeah Bro this is the Ukraine thread.

Posted by: Featherless | Sep 21 2023 20:35 utc | 502

Pacifica Advicate @248: “Only the things one manufacturers, the physical producers, amount to $$$ value.”
Well, not exactly $$$ value, but otherwise absolutely true. Inherent value is always and unalterably the product of human labor. But paying for everything with one’s labor at the point of trade really complicates trade. If you were a cobbler I suppose you could carry around shoes (products of your labor) and trade those, but that gets inconvenient when you want to buy a house. You need an abstraction that you can trust to reliably represent a certain (quantity * quality) of labor. The US dollar doesn’t do that explicitly, but it is the closest thing people have right now, despite the Empire of Delusions futzing with the supply to rob everyone who uses the dollar.
A fiat currency that is tied to an idealized “labor hour” would be the perfect currency for overall global trade stability and fairness, and yes, the physical representation of that can even be conch shells if the supply were carefully controlled. Problem is you want your fiat currency to have as little inherent value as possible of its own, so something like a cryptographic hash (digital crypto-currency) would be easier to use and manage. Conch shells have to be harvested, which imparts labor hours of value to them, and can be easily counterfeited by people who happen to have conch living nearby unless those shells are imprinted with the above cryptographic hash. Of course, that raises the question of why not just have the labor hours of value represented by the cryptographic hash in the first place and let people imprint it upon whatever items their currency fetish suggests for them.
I realize capitalist and grifters won’t like this kind of currency as it will naturally draw attention to the value of different types of labor. Is an hour of an executive’s labor really worth several hundred hours of shop floor labor? Of course not. It also exposes the inflationary nature of “earning” money labor-free from rent/interest.
Ultimately, the universal fiat currency will be based upon the labor hour, though it will take some time for people to figure that out. In the meantime, a “basket of commodities” will do to set the value of a good fiat currency since with a dynamic and broad enough basket we’ll be getting a relatively close approximation of the value of the labor hours crystallized within those commodities in the basket.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 21 2023 21:28 utc | 503

Pacifica Advicate @248: “Only the things one manufacturers, the physical producers, amount to $$$ value.”
Well, not exactly $$$ value, but otherwise absolutely true. Inherent value is always and unalterably the product of human labor. But paying for everything with one’s labor at the point of trade really complicates trade. If you were a cobbler I suppose you could carry around shoes (products of your labor) and trade those, but that gets inconvenient when you want to buy a house. You need an abstraction that you can trust to reliably represent a certain (quantity * quality) of labor. The US dollar doesn’t do that explicitly, but it is the closest thing people have right now, despite the Empire of Delusions futzing with the supply to rob everyone who uses the dollar.
A fiat currency that is tied to an idealized “labor hour” would be the perfect currency for overall global trade stability and fairness, and yes, the physical representation of that can even be conch shells if the supply were carefully controlled. Problem is you want your fiat currency to have as little inherent value as possible of its own, so something like a cryptographic hash (digital crypto-currency) would be easier to use and manage. Conch shells have to be harvested, which imparts labor hours of value to them, and can be easily counterfeited by people who happen to have conch living nearby unless those shells are imprinted with the above cryptographic hash. Of course, that raises the question of why not just have the labor hours of value represented by the cryptographic hash in the first place and let people imprint it upon whatever items their currency fetish suggests for them.
I realize capitalist and grifters won’t like this kind of currency as it will naturally draw attention to the value of different types of labor. Is an hour of an executive’s labor really worth several hundred hours of shop floor labor? Of course not. It also exposes the inflationary nature of “earning” money labor-free from rent/interest.
Ultimately, the universal fiat currency will be based upon the labor hour, though it will take some time for people to figure that out. In the meantime, a “basket of commodities” will do to set the value of a good fiat currency since with a dynamic and broad enough basket we’ll be getting a relatively close approximation of the value of the labor hours crystallized within those commodities in the basket.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 21 2023 21:28 utc | 504

@Milites 243
thx. But that´s the kind of serious coverage I would expect – pointing out that (a) on tactical level, the tanks are most likely NOT lost (or offer it as altern. possibility if author is no expert), as being stated in the German example and that (b) on strategic level, this example is everything but representative for what really is going on at the entire front and hinterland. Practicing the worst kind of induction by picking out the only cherry out of 1000 bad ones.

Posted by: AG | Sep 21 2023 21:38 utc | 505

@Milites 243
thx. But that´s the kind of serious coverage I would expect – pointing out that (a) on tactical level, the tanks are most likely NOT lost (or offer it as altern. possibility if author is no expert), as being stated in the German example and that (b) on strategic level, this example is everything but representative for what really is going on at the entire front and hinterland. Practicing the worst kind of induction by picking out the only cherry out of 1000 bad ones.

Posted by: AG | Sep 21 2023 21:38 utc | 506

Trubind1 | Sep 21 2023 12:12 utc | 228
*** It may be dawning on Pashinyan that the only reason Armenia has been “free” to runaround with his EU/US buddies is because of the Russian on the ground protection he’s enjoyed for decades.***
He always knew, he’s a Soros-owned creature.
Now he looks forward to a retirement in affluence, somewhere else.
Till they learn to fear serious retribution, traitors like Pashinyan will always be active. They are what the US empire depends upon.
If Russia does not destroy such placemen, andarm their opponents, the WEF/NATO empire will continue to erode all countries not fully under its control.
But … is Putin *really* an enemy of the WEF and various associated (monopoly-capitalist front) globalist agencies, cultisms and ideology?

Posted by: Cynic | Sep 21 2023 21:46 utc | 507

Trubind1 | Sep 21 2023 12:12 utc | 228
*** It may be dawning on Pashinyan that the only reason Armenia has been “free” to runaround with his EU/US buddies is because of the Russian on the ground protection he’s enjoyed for decades.***
He always knew, he’s a Soros-owned creature.
Now he looks forward to a retirement in affluence, somewhere else.
Till they learn to fear serious retribution, traitors like Pashinyan will always be active. They are what the US empire depends upon.
If Russia does not destroy such placemen, andarm their opponents, the WEF/NATO empire will continue to erode all countries not fully under its control.
But … is Putin *really* an enemy of the WEF and various associated (monopoly-capitalist front) globalist agencies, cultisms and ideology?

Posted by: Cynic | Sep 21 2023 21:46 utc | 508

anon2020 | Sep 21 2023 13:16 utc | 237
*** Deputy Commander of the RCC in Nagorno-Karabakh Ivan Kovgan, who was also the Deputy Commander of the Submarine Forces of the Northern Fleet of the Russian Federation.***
Bit of an odd assignment to such a role and location, surely?

Posted by: Cynic | Sep 21 2023 21:54 utc | 509

anon2020 | Sep 21 2023 13:16 utc | 237
*** Deputy Commander of the RCC in Nagorno-Karabakh Ivan Kovgan, who was also the Deputy Commander of the Submarine Forces of the Northern Fleet of the Russian Federation.***
Bit of an odd assignment to such a role and location, surely?

Posted by: Cynic | Sep 21 2023 21:54 utc | 510

You cannot eat gold and silver.
Posted by: Nobody | Sep 21 2023 11:48 utc | 222

7 Benefits of Eating Gold
If you are wondering is it safe to eat gold, it is 100% safe.
Its nanoparticles are available in dental care, healthcare, tableware, and currency. Even it is present in the human body in trace amount. Gold is an excellent electrical and thermal conductor; that’s why it’s best for mechanical components. It is available in most parts of the world.
Can you Eat Real Gold
The earliest mention of eating gold in history is from Alexandria, Egypt, around 5,000 years ago. Their alchemists used gold in medicinal and healing therapies. Even in the medieval ages in Europe, the alchemists used gold leaf as a coating on medicinal tablets. Around 1493-1541, a German scientist named ‘Paracelsus’ used gold leaf in medicinal tonics and elixirs.
Pure gold is 100% edible. It widely uses in many dishes:
Chocolates – Gold dusted and gold-covered chocolates are very popular nowadays. For example – 23-carat gold chocolate bacon, and gold-covered Kit-Kat.
Drinks – Drinks with gold flakes are also an excellent option to intake this metal. Many drinks are available with gold flakes in it. For example – gold flakes supreme vodka and Smirnoff gold.
Fruits – To enhance the health benefits of fruits and salads, gold leaf and gold flakes are the perfect substitutes to choose from.
Gold is mostly consumable, either in gold ash or gold leaf form. The gold ash is made by calcination (a process that transforms gold into ash) and has many health benefits, according to Ayurveda. Only the purest form of gold, which is 24k and 23K, is edible. Here are some benefits of eating gold, that is amazing!
Prevents Rheumatoid Arthritis
Improves Mental Health
Boosts Immunity
Prevents Cancer
Prevents Heart Disease
“>https://brightstuffs.com/7-benefits-of-eating-gold-can-you-eat-real-gold/

Posted by: MiniMO | Sep 22 2023 2:51 utc | 511

You cannot eat gold and silver.
Posted by: Nobody | Sep 21 2023 11:48 utc | 222

7 Benefits of Eating Gold
If you are wondering is it safe to eat gold, it is 100% safe.
Its nanoparticles are available in dental care, healthcare, tableware, and currency. Even it is present in the human body in trace amount. Gold is an excellent electrical and thermal conductor; that’s why it’s best for mechanical components. It is available in most parts of the world.
Can you Eat Real Gold
The earliest mention of eating gold in history is from Alexandria, Egypt, around 5,000 years ago. Their alchemists used gold in medicinal and healing therapies. Even in the medieval ages in Europe, the alchemists used gold leaf as a coating on medicinal tablets. Around 1493-1541, a German scientist named ‘Paracelsus’ used gold leaf in medicinal tonics and elixirs.
Pure gold is 100% edible. It widely uses in many dishes:
Chocolates – Gold dusted and gold-covered chocolates are very popular nowadays. For example – 23-carat gold chocolate bacon, and gold-covered Kit-Kat.
Drinks – Drinks with gold flakes are also an excellent option to intake this metal. Many drinks are available with gold flakes in it. For example – gold flakes supreme vodka and Smirnoff gold.
Fruits – To enhance the health benefits of fruits and salads, gold leaf and gold flakes are the perfect substitutes to choose from.
Gold is mostly consumable, either in gold ash or gold leaf form. The gold ash is made by calcination (a process that transforms gold into ash) and has many health benefits, according to Ayurveda. Only the purest form of gold, which is 24k and 23K, is edible. Here are some benefits of eating gold, that is amazing!
Prevents Rheumatoid Arthritis
Improves Mental Health
Boosts Immunity
Prevents Cancer
Prevents Heart Disease
“>https://brightstuffs.com/7-benefits-of-eating-gold-can-you-eat-real-gold/

Posted by: MiniMO | Sep 22 2023 2:51 utc | 512

Corrected link to me earlier post. Some how the blockquote html tag got connected to the address.
https://brightstuffs.com/7-benefits-of-eating-gold-can-you-eat-real-gold/

Posted by: MiniMO | Sep 22 2023 2:58 utc | 513

Corrected link to me earlier post. Some how the blockquote html tag got connected to the address.
https://brightstuffs.com/7-benefits-of-eating-gold-can-you-eat-real-gold/

Posted by: MiniMO | Sep 22 2023 2:58 utc | 514

“But … is Putin *really* an enemy of the WEF and various associated (monopoly-capitalist front) globalist agencies, cultisms and ideology?”
Posted by: Cynic | Sep 21 2023 21:46 utc | 255
As for Pashinyan and other known “place holders”, as we’ve seen in the States, you destroy named one and then another seems to pop up in their place. The real corrections will come when the $$ dries up on such frivolous endeavors. When you think of the trillions US/EU has spent on these “Nation shaping” ideas, they last awhile, they get ignored, then their citizens have had enough and oust them, then then Soros type group has to start again. It’s a constant global whack-a-mole, and they have no real “friends” only thing that binds them is money or fear.
People often throw WEF and “Globalization” into the same basket as a Globalized Imperialism where power is vaunted by a select few.
Multipolarism is not “new”… it’s a return to the old. It was the structure prior to the ideology of WEF and global imperialism wielded by Anglo Saxons in the West.
Ever since the advent of “air travel” ect, we’re globalized & can’t reverses that. I think Putin would like to take the “best” of the global institutions as platforms, NOT World Edicts, capitalism or market capitalism has its merits, as do societal or socialist citizen responsibilities that governances have. I don’t see Putin having regards for “monopolies” or ideologies that “push” themselves on other “sovereignties”. The “extreme” ideologies like Nazism, these and others are in that camp.
I think also, “non-interference” for Putin & Xi is valued.
So, enemy?? I wouldn’t say that, I would say that he thinks some of the “platforms” of discussing global issues have value. But there are many that have none and he has hoped to reshape those that he and other, many other nations want to, but in the end, they become completely valueless like the OCSE , well, Russia will leave.
Honestly, after the next global collapse, I see very few of these “global institutions” standing. Even the UNSC, instead of becoming more balanced, may easily collapse b4 then.
So, no, I don’t see Putin as a globalist capitalist monopolistic hack.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Sep 22 2023 20:24 utc | 515

“But … is Putin *really* an enemy of the WEF and various associated (monopoly-capitalist front) globalist agencies, cultisms and ideology?”
Posted by: Cynic | Sep 21 2023 21:46 utc | 255
As for Pashinyan and other known “place holders”, as we’ve seen in the States, you destroy named one and then another seems to pop up in their place. The real corrections will come when the $$ dries up on such frivolous endeavors. When you think of the trillions US/EU has spent on these “Nation shaping” ideas, they last awhile, they get ignored, then their citizens have had enough and oust them, then then Soros type group has to start again. It’s a constant global whack-a-mole, and they have no real “friends” only thing that binds them is money or fear.
People often throw WEF and “Globalization” into the same basket as a Globalized Imperialism where power is vaunted by a select few.
Multipolarism is not “new”… it’s a return to the old. It was the structure prior to the ideology of WEF and global imperialism wielded by Anglo Saxons in the West.
Ever since the advent of “air travel” ect, we’re globalized & can’t reverses that. I think Putin would like to take the “best” of the global institutions as platforms, NOT World Edicts, capitalism or market capitalism has its merits, as do societal or socialist citizen responsibilities that governances have. I don’t see Putin having regards for “monopolies” or ideologies that “push” themselves on other “sovereignties”. The “extreme” ideologies like Nazism, these and others are in that camp.
I think also, “non-interference” for Putin & Xi is valued.
So, enemy?? I wouldn’t say that, I would say that he thinks some of the “platforms” of discussing global issues have value. But there are many that have none and he has hoped to reshape those that he and other, many other nations want to, but in the end, they become completely valueless like the OCSE , well, Russia will leave.
Honestly, after the next global collapse, I see very few of these “global institutions” standing. Even the UNSC, instead of becoming more balanced, may easily collapse b4 then.
So, no, I don’t see Putin as a globalist capitalist monopolistic hack.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Sep 22 2023 20:24 utc | 516

Oh,the IRONY or rather some total FARCE…
https://alethonews.com/2023/09/21/ukrainian-leader-hysterically-accuses-the-notoriously-russophobic-polish-of-helping-moscow/
Ukrainian leader hysterically accuses the notoriously Russophobic Polish of helping Moscow
By Rachel Marsden | RT | September 21, 2023
Ukraine and Poland’s relationship has apparently reached the throwing toys out of the pram phase. Speaking to the United Nations General Assembly this week, President Vladimir Zelensky said it was “alarming to see how some in Europe… are helping set the stage for a Moscow actor.” Who could he have been talking about?
“I hope these words aren’t addressed to Poland,” replied a Polish government spokesman. If you have to ask yourself the question, you probably already know the answer. Yep, Zelensky is accusing Poland of

Posted by: MaxD | Sep 22 2023 21:02 utc | 517

Oh,the IRONY or rather some total FARCE…
https://alethonews.com/2023/09/21/ukrainian-leader-hysterically-accuses-the-notoriously-russophobic-polish-of-helping-moscow/
Ukrainian leader hysterically accuses the notoriously Russophobic Polish of helping Moscow
By Rachel Marsden | RT | September 21, 2023
Ukraine and Poland’s relationship has apparently reached the throwing toys out of the pram phase. Speaking to the United Nations General Assembly this week, President Vladimir Zelensky said it was “alarming to see how some in Europe… are helping set the stage for a Moscow actor.” Who could he have been talking about?
“I hope these words aren’t addressed to Poland,” replied a Polish government spokesman. If you have to ask yourself the question, you probably already know the answer. Yep, Zelensky is accusing Poland of

Posted by: MaxD | Sep 22 2023 21:02 utc | 518