Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
The current open thread for other issues is here.
Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Back to Main
September 17, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-219
Comments
“The reason america didn’t give ukraine everything it needs right away and instead drip feeding it is to prevent a fast Russian loss, and instead slowly bleed them dry. That keeps Putin in power while still badly damaging the Russian military which will weaken their global influence
Posted by: Link | Sep 18 2023 7:00 utc | 121”
Nope. The plan from day one was to turn the Donbas into a fortress and decimate Russian forces with ATGM’s while the USA destroys the Russian nation socially and economically with sanctions. This is why you started seeing news pieces in March of 2022 about Russia running out of missiles and canabalizing washing machines when there was zero evidence that was actually happening … you see it was SUPPOSED to happen but it didn’t.
The sanctions didn’t work. Russia isn’t isolated.
The russian people aren’t about to hang Putin from a lamppost because they no longer have McDonalds and Disney.
China and Iran aren’t providing arms but they are working behind the scenes with Russian arms manufacturers.
India isn’t providing arms but they are repackaging and trafficking Russian oil to Americans.
The Saudis are selling oil in yuan and have made friends with Iran.
Countries are lining up to join the BRICS and be safe from US sanctions … countries are walking away from the G20.
Russia is going to be able to outproduce the west and destroy Ukrainians every time they are reanimated and brought back to life with NATO hand me downs.
This war was a very, very bad move by the USA.
Posted by: HB_Norica | Sep 18 2023 21:30 utc | 401
“The reason america didn’t give ukraine everything it needs right away and instead drip feeding it is to prevent a fast Russian loss, and instead slowly bleed them dry. That keeps Putin in power while still badly damaging the Russian military which will weaken their global influence
Posted by: Link | Sep 18 2023 7:00 utc | 121”
Nope. The plan from day one was to turn the Donbas into a fortress and decimate Russian forces with ATGM’s while the USA destroys the Russian nation socially and economically with sanctions. This is why you started seeing news pieces in March of 2022 about Russia running out of missiles and canabalizing washing machines when there was zero evidence that was actually happening … you see it was SUPPOSED to happen but it didn’t.
The sanctions didn’t work. Russia isn’t isolated.
The russian people aren’t about to hang Putin from a lamppost because they no longer have McDonalds and Disney.
China and Iran aren’t providing arms but they are working behind the scenes with Russian arms manufacturers.
India isn’t providing arms but they are repackaging and trafficking Russian oil to Americans.
The Saudis are selling oil in yuan and have made friends with Iran.
Countries are lining up to join the BRICS and be safe from US sanctions … countries are walking away from the G20.
Russia is going to be able to outproduce the west and destroy Ukrainians every time they are reanimated and brought back to life with NATO hand me downs.
This war was a very, very bad move by the USA.
Posted by: HB_Norica | Sep 18 2023 21:30 utc | 402
Nope. The plan from day one was to turn the Donbas into a fortress and decimate Russian forces with ATGM’s while the USA destroys the Russian nation socially and economically with sanctions. This is why you started seeing news pieces in March of 2022 about Russia running out of missiles and canabalizing washing machines when there was zero evidence that was actually happening … you see it was SUPPOSED to happen but it didn’t.
Posted by: HB_Norica | Sep 18 2023 21:30 utc | 202
Exactly on point.
What many people fail to realize is that the west (US on behalf of EU) formulated the sanctions months before SMO started, and most MSM headlines and articles were created before SMO started. Thousands of BS articles and headlines from the sickest periphery of cocaine twisted liberal minds.
Since then they have been periodically running the same articles and same narratives. Funnily enough, sometimes those articles are true when you replace Russia with Ukraine. Projection, that’s how they roll in the west.
Posted by: unimperator | Sep 18 2023 21:44 utc | 403
Nope. The plan from day one was to turn the Donbas into a fortress and decimate Russian forces with ATGM’s while the USA destroys the Russian nation socially and economically with sanctions. This is why you started seeing news pieces in March of 2022 about Russia running out of missiles and canabalizing washing machines when there was zero evidence that was actually happening … you see it was SUPPOSED to happen but it didn’t.
Posted by: HB_Norica | Sep 18 2023 21:30 utc | 202
Exactly on point.
What many people fail to realize is that the west (US on behalf of EU) formulated the sanctions months before SMO started, and most MSM headlines and articles were created before SMO started. Thousands of BS articles and headlines from the sickest periphery of cocaine twisted liberal minds.
Since then they have been periodically running the same articles and same narratives. Funnily enough, sometimes those articles are true when you replace Russia with Ukraine. Projection, that’s how they roll in the west.
Posted by: unimperator | Sep 18 2023 21:44 utc | 404
Posted by: HB_Norica | Sep 18 2023 21:30 utc | 202
“The plan from day one was to turn the Donbas into a fortress and decimate Russian forces with ATGM’s while the USA destroys the Russian nation socially and economically with sanctions”.
####
I hold to the theory that, as well as the above, Poroshenko’s plan was to make life so fearful and uncomfortable to drive the ethnic Russians into Russia, gradually repopulating with more Banderan types. That’s why Azov were so prevalent there from Kharkiv to Odessa.
Ironically, Russia decided to leave the people there and move the borders ! … and cleanse out Banderism! Lol lol
Posted by: SCCC | Sep 18 2023 22:21 utc | 405
Posted by: HB_Norica | Sep 18 2023 21:30 utc | 202
“The plan from day one was to turn the Donbas into a fortress and decimate Russian forces with ATGM’s while the USA destroys the Russian nation socially and economically with sanctions”.
####
I hold to the theory that, as well as the above, Poroshenko’s plan was to make life so fearful and uncomfortable to drive the ethnic Russians into Russia, gradually repopulating with more Banderan types. That’s why Azov were so prevalent there from Kharkiv to Odessa.
Ironically, Russia decided to leave the people there and move the borders ! … and cleanse out Banderism! Lol lol
Posted by: SCCC | Sep 18 2023 22:21 utc | 406
@ Giyane, §107:
Yes, the Grauniad really is beyond the pale. It is to the NeoCons as the Morning Star was to the Communists.
Posted by: John Marks | Sep 18 2023 22:26 utc | 407
@ Giyane, §107:
Yes, the Grauniad really is beyond the pale. It is to the NeoCons as the Morning Star was to the Communists.
Posted by: John Marks | Sep 18 2023 22:26 utc | 408
@ Illustrious Trip, §129:
Yes, and the US is now trying hard to do in Syria what they did to the Ukraine in 2014 and Pakistan in 2022.
Posted by: John Marks | Sep 18 2023 22:40 utc | 409
@ Illustrious Trip, §129:
Yes, and the US is now trying hard to do in Syria what they did to the Ukraine in 2014 and Pakistan in 2022.
Posted by: John Marks | Sep 18 2023 22:40 utc | 410
For those who may be interested and are members of the recently Bezos acquired Internet Movie DataBase (IMDB), that slimy pay to play Sean Penn has released an alleged documentary called “Superpower”.
It claims to tell the story of the Ukraine War but this sycophantic devotion to weeping as payment requires doco by Penn towards Zelenski isn’t information sharing as much as nausea inducing.
Anyway as I was saying if yer signed up to IMDB and go right here you will be able to view, then if you choose contribute a review of the movie yourself which calls out this movie for the propaganda that it is.
Many have already done so and copped quite a few up-ticks to boot.
However my review hadn’t appeared before I hopped out and as far as I can tell, the site has only recorded about 50% of the upticks I gave other similar reviews. In other words standard big tech down sizing of push back.
Still if enough honest reviews appear the site cannot hide all of them and same with those people who ‘like’ the honest reviews.
I was at great pains not to mention nazi in my review (which we know),as I figure doing so would be an automatic ‘breach of community values’ whatchamacallit.
Many will regard the exercise as pointless I know but IMO chipping away at the wall of ignorance is always effective – Rome wasn’t brought down in a day & all that.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 19 2023 6:20 utc | 411
For those who may be interested and are members of the recently Bezos acquired Internet Movie DataBase (IMDB), that slimy pay to play Sean Penn has released an alleged documentary called “Superpower”.
It claims to tell the story of the Ukraine War but this sycophantic devotion to weeping as payment requires doco by Penn towards Zelenski isn’t information sharing as much as nausea inducing.
Anyway as I was saying if yer signed up to IMDB and go right here you will be able to view, then if you choose contribute a review of the movie yourself which calls out this movie for the propaganda that it is.
Many have already done so and copped quite a few up-ticks to boot.
However my review hadn’t appeared before I hopped out and as far as I can tell, the site has only recorded about 50% of the upticks I gave other similar reviews. In other words standard big tech down sizing of push back.
Still if enough honest reviews appear the site cannot hide all of them and same with those people who ‘like’ the honest reviews.
I was at great pains not to mention nazi in my review (which we know),as I figure doing so would be an automatic ‘breach of community values’ whatchamacallit.
Many will regard the exercise as pointless I know but IMO chipping away at the wall of ignorance is always effective – Rome wasn’t brought down in a day & all that.
Posted by: Debsisdead | Sep 19 2023 6:20 utc | 412
Population within Kiev controled territory
Starting point 34 million as of 2014
Less
5 million fled to Europe 2014-21
5 million fled to Europe 2022-23
3 million fled to Russia 2014-21
3 million fled to Russia 2022-23
7 million living in DPR, LPR, Crimea
————————
11 million
Posted by: Exile | Sep 19 2023 7:09 utc | 413
Population within Kiev controled territory
Starting point 34 million as of 2014
Less
5 million fled to Europe 2014-21
5 million fled to Europe 2022-23
3 million fled to Russia 2014-21
3 million fled to Russia 2022-23
7 million living in DPR, LPR, Crimea
————————
11 million
Posted by: Exile | Sep 19 2023 7:09 utc | 414
How many would you subtract due to KIA and too maimed to return to duty? I would have to estimate around 3/4 of a million which would put ukraine’s population at just above the 10 million mark.
That’s got to be close to the breaking point. IMHO.
Posted by: T.D. | Sep 19 2023 8:59 utc | 415
How many would you subtract due to KIA and too maimed to return to duty? I would have to estimate around 3/4 of a million which would put ukraine’s population at just above the 10 million mark.
That’s got to be close to the breaking point. IMHO.
Posted by: T.D. | Sep 19 2023 8:59 utc | 416
@Johan Kaspar | Sep 17 2023 22:44 utc | 76
Reisner’s … bold words were spoken in an appearance on ZDF heute:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFU1Bv1LhZk
Now when I posted this, I’d seen it somewhere else, perhaps a Telegram channel, where it had English subtitles. I can’t find back that one however, and R’s spoken Austrian-German is just a bit too fast for me to be sure whether the words are exactly the same as in those subtitles, or whether the nuance in fact is, say, “The last time such strong defense works have been seen.” Perhaps a native speaker can comment?
Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Sep 19 2023 9:51 utc | 417
@Johan Kaspar | Sep 17 2023 22:44 utc | 76
Reisner’s … bold words were spoken in an appearance on ZDF heute:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FFU1Bv1LhZk
Now when I posted this, I’d seen it somewhere else, perhaps a Telegram channel, where it had English subtitles. I can’t find back that one however, and R’s spoken Austrian-German is just a bit too fast for me to be sure whether the words are exactly the same as in those subtitles, or whether the nuance in fact is, say, “The last time such strong defense works have been seen.” Perhaps a native speaker can comment?
Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Sep 19 2023 9:51 utc | 418
SCCC | Sep 18 2023 22:06 utc | 204
??? NEW FORUM FORMAT ???
I like the existing format because it is old style and responds without delay and moderation to every poster. This enables discussions to arise for which every moderated medium would be way too slow. Of course I do have my own set of improvement ideas, but these are minor compared to yours. They would also involve some programming to do.
To me it seems unlikely that any solution that increases the moderator workload – which implies the need for more than one full time moderator – has any chance of improving the contents. Besides, as a poster I wouldn’t want to deal with all of these moderators and have anybody censor me except b whom I know.
Your idea makes MoA look like other forums. I wonder if there is any existing forum that you would judge superior to MoA and cite as an example. MoA’s success owes itself to its current host and to its distinguished and numerous audience, containing a large fraction of longtime members, and to its welcoming policy towards newbies. There is also some quality selection in place, owing to the fact that good posters, recognizing each other, tend to come back frequently, while the rest lose interest after a while.
If MoA was to lose its appeal, I’m sure it isn’t the fault of “trolls” or “unqualified” posters, but may rather result from too much troll hunting or from any kind of reformers who aim to introduce more censoring and restrict the influx of new members.
Posted by: grunzt | Sep 19 2023 9:52 utc | 419
SCCC | Sep 18 2023 22:06 utc | 204
??? NEW FORUM FORMAT ???
I like the existing format because it is old style and responds without delay and moderation to every poster. This enables discussions to arise for which every moderated medium would be way too slow. Of course I do have my own set of improvement ideas, but these are minor compared to yours. They would also involve some programming to do.
To me it seems unlikely that any solution that increases the moderator workload – which implies the need for more than one full time moderator – has any chance of improving the contents. Besides, as a poster I wouldn’t want to deal with all of these moderators and have anybody censor me except b whom I know.
Your idea makes MoA look like other forums. I wonder if there is any existing forum that you would judge superior to MoA and cite as an example. MoA’s success owes itself to its current host and to its distinguished and numerous audience, containing a large fraction of longtime members, and to its welcoming policy towards newbies. There is also some quality selection in place, owing to the fact that good posters, recognizing each other, tend to come back frequently, while the rest lose interest after a while.
If MoA was to lose its appeal, I’m sure it isn’t the fault of “trolls” or “unqualified” posters, but may rather result from too much troll hunting or from any kind of reformers who aim to introduce more censoring and restrict the influx of new members.
Posted by: grunzt | Sep 19 2023 9:52 utc | 420
This is why you started seeing news pieces in March of 2022 about Russia running out of missiles and canabalizing washing machines when there was zero evidence that was actually happening … you see it was SUPPOSED to happen but it didn’t.
Posted by: HB_Norica | Sep 18 2023 21:30 utc | 202
The washing machines stories are not based on anything possible. It’s just what the diversity hire in us+uk agencies was able to write. Running out of missiles was presented after the first weeks and while a shortage can be possible in theory, it’s not possible so soon to reach zero, another example of idiotic writing. And to solve the idiot writer problem, they simply invert most news, replace Ukr or nato with Russia and that’s it, they don’t have to be creative or remember the previous lies.
What is absolutely funny is how the msm is so militarized all over natostan that they say the most absurd things like robots. They must receive a daily email with the approved messages and they follow the orders, soldiers.
Posted by: rk | Sep 19 2023 11:50 utc | 421
This is why you started seeing news pieces in March of 2022 about Russia running out of missiles and canabalizing washing machines when there was zero evidence that was actually happening … you see it was SUPPOSED to happen but it didn’t.
Posted by: HB_Norica | Sep 18 2023 21:30 utc | 202
The washing machines stories are not based on anything possible. It’s just what the diversity hire in us+uk agencies was able to write. Running out of missiles was presented after the first weeks and while a shortage can be possible in theory, it’s not possible so soon to reach zero, another example of idiotic writing. And to solve the idiot writer problem, they simply invert most news, replace Ukr or nato with Russia and that’s it, they don’t have to be creative or remember the previous lies.
What is absolutely funny is how the msm is so militarized all over natostan that they say the most absurd things like robots. They must receive a daily email with the approved messages and they follow the orders, soldiers.
Posted by: rk | Sep 19 2023 11:50 utc | 422
RT: Azerbaijan announces ‘counter-terrorism measures’ in disputed region
Posted by: simplex | Sep 19 2023 11:53 utc | 423
RT: Azerbaijan announces ‘counter-terrorism measures’ in disputed region
Posted by: simplex | Sep 19 2023 11:53 utc | 424
I don’t know the range of suitable programs, but this one seems to be facilitating the degradation of MoA such that good people drop away from so much rubbish.
* Like name and email subscription validation, but still with handle. It might filter sincerity from shit-posting.
* Like some TG channels have a 24hr joining-delay period.
* Like some extra thread categories to reduce off topic posts. But then that might require tidy-up moderators.
* Your (mostly) daily fresh essay causes previous threads to just die off, thus many people repost their same old (but paraphrased) mental meanderings over and over to keep them seen. It’s like the old “I’ve been ignored” bumping habit. It also causes worthy discussions to die out every 24 hours because people just move on from the “UKRAINE THREAD” reset.
I’m gunna post this occasionally to generate some discussion. Might be time for a change. Please correct me if I’m wrong/ignorant of the difficulties.
Posted by: SCCC | Sep 18 2023 22:06 utc | 204
————————————————————
SCCC, you have admitted on another current string that you posted in the past but changed your handle, how do we know that you aren’t just “degradation troll” trying to convince b that he should change his format that you dislike. Trolls are a part of the discussion here at MoA, and no forces you to respond to them. In fact, b warns us not to.
I am sure that I have accused commenters of being trolls (or fleas) when they were really just expressing a contrarian perspective that I disagreed with, it is all part of the give and take here at MoA. In fact, I have disagreed with your posts on several occasions, and what makes you assume that your perspective is necessarily an improvement for MoA, and the rest of the commentors? I personally think your comments are interesting (even when I disagree with you) and that is what counts.
Posted by: Ed | Sep 19 2023 14:32 utc | 425
I don’t know the range of suitable programs, but this one seems to be facilitating the degradation of MoA such that good people drop away from so much rubbish.
* Like name and email subscription validation, but still with handle. It might filter sincerity from shit-posting.
* Like some TG channels have a 24hr joining-delay period.
* Like some extra thread categories to reduce off topic posts. But then that might require tidy-up moderators.
* Your (mostly) daily fresh essay causes previous threads to just die off, thus many people repost their same old (but paraphrased) mental meanderings over and over to keep them seen. It’s like the old “I’ve been ignored” bumping habit. It also causes worthy discussions to die out every 24 hours because people just move on from the “UKRAINE THREAD” reset.
I’m gunna post this occasionally to generate some discussion. Might be time for a change. Please correct me if I’m wrong/ignorant of the difficulties.
Posted by: SCCC | Sep 18 2023 22:06 utc | 204
————————————————————
SCCC, you have admitted on another current string that you posted in the past but changed your handle, how do we know that you aren’t just “degradation troll” trying to convince b that he should change his format that you dislike. Trolls are a part of the discussion here at MoA, and no forces you to respond to them. In fact, b warns us not to.
I am sure that I have accused commenters of being trolls (or fleas) when they were really just expressing a contrarian perspective that I disagreed with, it is all part of the give and take here at MoA. In fact, I have disagreed with your posts on several occasions, and what makes you assume that your perspective is necessarily an improvement for MoA, and the rest of the commentors? I personally think your comments are interesting (even when I disagree with you) and that is what counts.
Posted by: Ed | Sep 19 2023 14:32 utc | 426
@ 199 ” I have a theory that most people under a certain age in the west assume warfare is like it is in video games or movies, am I correct?”
Young people in America fully realise that a war with Russia is not a video game.
They know there is no Replay when you get Game Over.
That and very low pay, is one of the reasons why the US military is missing its recruitment goals by large margins. Young people are smart enough not to want to to serve in poverty. Then be thrown into a meat grinder
Posted by: Golddigger | Sep 19 2023 14:44 utc | 427
@ 199 ” I have a theory that most people under a certain age in the west assume warfare is like it is in video games or movies, am I correct?”
Young people in America fully realise that a war with Russia is not a video game.
They know there is no Replay when you get Game Over.
That and very low pay, is one of the reasons why the US military is missing its recruitment goals by large margins. Young people are smart enough not to want to to serve in poverty. Then be thrown into a meat grinder
Posted by: Golddigger | Sep 19 2023 14:44 utc | 428
Trolls are a part of the discussion here at MoA, and no forces you to respond to them. In fact, b warns us not to.
Posted by: Ed | Sep 19 2023 14:32 utc | 214
I guess that explains why nobody (else) addressed or responded to Timur’s comment (81).
Posted by: joey_n | Sep 19 2023 19:10 utc | 429
Trolls are a part of the discussion here at MoA, and no forces you to respond to them. In fact, b warns us not to.
Posted by: Ed | Sep 19 2023 14:32 utc | 214
I guess that explains why nobody (else) addressed or responded to Timur’s comment (81).
Posted by: joey_n | Sep 19 2023 19:10 utc | 430
Odds and ends. It would be interesting if the increased RF aviation is a response to artillery vulnerability … glide bombs have better stand-off range after all.
https://t.me/CyberspecNews/42554
Ukrainian equipments loses for the last 7 days at low end:
5 tanks
10 Artillery Guns
30 armored vehicles
During last week, Ukrainian forces continued the use of HIMARS/M270 to take out Russian artillery guns while the Russian forces increased the use of air force significantly. Also, Russian forces destroyed a lot of Ukrainian infantry because the Ukrainian are not using enough armored or tanks.
Via Dima:
Sumy Region – RF concentrated around 53k forces and around 1000 Iskander missiles in that border region.
https://t.me/CyberspecNews/42549
🇺🇦Storm Shadow missile heading towards the Crimean Bridge was shot down
The footage was published by eyewitnesses.
⚡️No official data has been received yet.
Posted by: anon2020 | Sep 19 2023 19:18 utc | 431
Odds and ends. It would be interesting if the increased RF aviation is a response to artillery vulnerability … glide bombs have better stand-off range after all.
https://t.me/CyberspecNews/42554
Ukrainian equipments loses for the last 7 days at low end:
5 tanks
10 Artillery Guns
30 armored vehicles
During last week, Ukrainian forces continued the use of HIMARS/M270 to take out Russian artillery guns while the Russian forces increased the use of air force significantly. Also, Russian forces destroyed a lot of Ukrainian infantry because the Ukrainian are not using enough armored or tanks.
Via Dima:
Sumy Region – RF concentrated around 53k forces and around 1000 Iskander missiles in that border region.
https://t.me/CyberspecNews/42549
🇺🇦Storm Shadow missile heading towards the Crimean Bridge was shot down
The footage was published by eyewitnesses.
⚡️No official data has been received yet.
Posted by: anon2020 | Sep 19 2023 19:18 utc | 432
anon2020 @ 217
Via Dima: Sumy Region – RF concentrated around 53k forces and around 1000 Iskander missiles in that border region.
All through the history of war used to be troop sizes, troops movements, and artillery capabilities was secret and revealing it could get you shot. Now the MoD calls up Dima and makes sure he gets the news out to Kiev and NATO.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 19 2023 20:54 utc | 433
anon2020 @ 217
Via Dima: Sumy Region – RF concentrated around 53k forces and around 1000 Iskander missiles in that border region.
All through the history of war used to be troop sizes, troops movements, and artillery capabilities was secret and revealing it could get you shot. Now the MoD calls up Dima and makes sure he gets the news out to Kiev and NATO.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 19 2023 20:54 utc | 434
“Now the MoD calls up Dima and makes sure he gets the news out to Kiev and NATO.”
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 19 2023 20:54 utc | 218
So that’s how Dima gets his news. I wouldn’t be surprised if the MoD feeds him a load of BS.
Posted by: dh | Sep 19 2023 21:53 utc | 435
“Now the MoD calls up Dima and makes sure he gets the news out to Kiev and NATO.”
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 19 2023 20:54 utc | 218
So that’s how Dima gets his news. I wouldn’t be surprised if the MoD feeds him a load of BS.
Posted by: dh | Sep 19 2023 21:53 utc | 436
Drone strike near Sochi airport at fuel storage
t.me/CyberspecNews/42624
Posted by: rk | Sep 20 2023 7:23 utc | 437
Drone strike near Sochi airport at fuel storage
t.me/CyberspecNews/42624
Posted by: rk | Sep 20 2023 7:23 utc | 438