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September 10, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-214
Comments
The Russians ran out of mines!
Hard to see the point of this article, but the main take away is that Russians laid deeper than usual minefields, and these have been a headache for Ukraine.
A rather infantile and obscure attempt is made to weave in the propaganda narrative that Russia has run out of something, anything. Meanwhile it has taken over three months for Ukraine to capture some fields and flattened hamlets.
https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-irregular-attempt-to-make-deeper-minefields-created-headaches-report-2023-9?amp
Posted by: Truthsayer | Sep 10 2023 13:07 utc | 1
The Russians ran out of mines!
Hard to see the point of this article, but the main take away is that Russians laid deeper than usual minefields, and these have been a headache for Ukraine.
A rather infantile and obscure attempt is made to weave in the propaganda narrative that Russia has run out of something, anything. Meanwhile it has taken over three months for Ukraine to capture some fields and flattened hamlets.
https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-irregular-attempt-to-make-deeper-minefields-created-headaches-report-2023-9?amp
Posted by: Truthsayer | Sep 10 2023 13:07 utc | 2
@ kupkee, #212, §324:
There may be an increasing demand for US$$ because the US government desperately needs them but what is America going to sell to get these dollars?
About all that´s left is “influence” – a senator id $10k a pop according to BlackRock.
And would anyone buy a US-“guaranteed” virtual slice of Ukraine?
Posted by: John Marks | Sep 10 2023 13:11 utc | 3
@ kupkee, #212, §324:
There may be an increasing demand for US$$ because the US government desperately needs them but what is America going to sell to get these dollars?
About all that´s left is “influence” – a senator id $10k a pop according to BlackRock.
And would anyone buy a US-“guaranteed” virtual slice of Ukraine?
Posted by: John Marks | Sep 10 2023 13:11 utc | 4
Our source reports that Zelensky will try to convince Republicans to support the allocation of an additional $20+ billion in military loans to Ukraine for 2024.
This is the main purpose of Ze’s trip to the United States, and not a speech at the UN General Assembly.
Now the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the OP are trying to organize meetings between Ze and the “resps”, but so far to no avail.
The last active stage of the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ offensive is timed just in time for Ze’s trip to the United States. That’s why they threw all their strength into the attack. Banking needs a good information background.
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:15 utc | 5
Our source reports that Zelensky will try to convince Republicans to support the allocation of an additional $20+ billion in military loans to Ukraine for 2024.
This is the main purpose of Ze’s trip to the United States, and not a speech at the UN General Assembly.
Now the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and the OP are trying to organize meetings between Ze and the “resps”, but so far to no avail.
The last active stage of the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ offensive is timed just in time for Ze’s trip to the United States. That’s why they threw all their strength into the attack. Banking needs a good information background.
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:15 utc | 6
Our source reports that the Office of the President is considering the option of officially declaring war on Russia and large-scale conscription of everyone into the army. Yes, this is also convenient to remove the topic of holding elections and indignation about illegal mobilization.
Many people call this step agony, which will confirm the fact that everything is very bad in Ukraine and the authorities are leading the country to collapse.
There are many reasons:
1. Ze will not win parliamentary elections and will not have a monopoly. There is a version that he could be leaked and even made guilty of inciting war. This means it’s easier for him to sink the ship in order to cover up traces of corruption, etc.
2. They stop giving money/loans anyway. This threatens internal explosion and default. Ukraine will face Maidans and military coups in the coming years.
3. The transfer of weapons has slowed down and will soon look like mini handouts. This will not be able to influence the course of the war and the government will be forced to capitulate.
4. Losses in manpower and equipment are growing. On the contrary, the enemy is strengthening. Nobody wants to fight anymore. The morale of society has sunk to the bottom.
We are observing… but it looks very much like ZeErmak themselves are implementing the “Yugoslav scenario” for Ukraine. They do this under the instructions of their patrons, who benefit from dismembering Ukraine, giving the destroyed regions to the Russians, and taking everything safe and sound for themselves.
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:17 utc | 7
Our source reports that the Office of the President is considering the option of officially declaring war on Russia and large-scale conscription of everyone into the army. Yes, this is also convenient to remove the topic of holding elections and indignation about illegal mobilization.
Many people call this step agony, which will confirm the fact that everything is very bad in Ukraine and the authorities are leading the country to collapse.
There are many reasons:
1. Ze will not win parliamentary elections and will not have a monopoly. There is a version that he could be leaked and even made guilty of inciting war. This means it’s easier for him to sink the ship in order to cover up traces of corruption, etc.
2. They stop giving money/loans anyway. This threatens internal explosion and default. Ukraine will face Maidans and military coups in the coming years.
3. The transfer of weapons has slowed down and will soon look like mini handouts. This will not be able to influence the course of the war and the government will be forced to capitulate.
4. Losses in manpower and equipment are growing. On the contrary, the enemy is strengthening. Nobody wants to fight anymore. The morale of society has sunk to the bottom.
We are observing… but it looks very much like ZeErmak themselves are implementing the “Yugoslav scenario” for Ukraine. They do this under the instructions of their patrons, who benefit from dismembering Ukraine, giving the destroyed regions to the Russians, and taking everything safe and sound for themselves.
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:17 utc | 8
There were rumors on the sidelines that at the last Headquarters of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, for the first time in six months, they did not discuss the offensive, but discussed preparations for defense.
Many saw this as a clear sign that the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ offensive had already been written off even on Bankova, admitting that it had failed and the losses were high. Also, this is a signal that the OP is aware that the Russians are preparing their offensive in which Ukraine may lose access to the sea (everyone on the sidelines says that the Russian Federation will not stop the war until it takes Odessa).
We confirm our colleagues’ rumors that the Office of the President is going on the defensive. Everyone has already written off the offensive. The Russian offensive may be much more sensitive, and it’s worth preparing for it.
The task of the Ukrainian Armed Forces is to, situationally, indicatively, achieve results before September 19, so that Ze can sell it to Western partners as a success, while knocking out further support.
Next, the Ukrainian Armed Forces go on the defensive. Especially in the Odessa direction.
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:19 utc | 9
There were rumors on the sidelines that at the last Headquarters of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief, for the first time in six months, they did not discuss the offensive, but discussed preparations for defense.
Many saw this as a clear sign that the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ offensive had already been written off even on Bankova, admitting that it had failed and the losses were high. Also, this is a signal that the OP is aware that the Russians are preparing their offensive in which Ukraine may lose access to the sea (everyone on the sidelines says that the Russian Federation will not stop the war until it takes Odessa).
We confirm our colleagues’ rumors that the Office of the President is going on the defensive. Everyone has already written off the offensive. The Russian offensive may be much more sensitive, and it’s worth preparing for it.
The task of the Ukrainian Armed Forces is to, situationally, indicatively, achieve results before September 19, so that Ze can sell it to Western partners as a success, while knocking out further support.
Next, the Ukrainian Armed Forces go on the defensive. Especially in the Odessa direction.
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:19 utc | 10
Our source in the OP said that the General Staff is asking the Office of the President to strengthen information support for mobilization; due to corruption scandals and videos of harsh treatment of Ukrainians, the process of replenishing reserves has been disrupted.
Technologists at Bankova want to use the standard method, blaming the failure of mobilization on the Kremlin, which organized an information campaign to discredit the TCC and large losses at the front in order to intimidate the Ukrainians. TsIPSO is already working on this track, trying to form a set of enemy propaganda narratives:
• Kremlin agents who discredit military commissars are withdrawing their mobilization
•the enemy is trying to disrupt mobilization and force Ukraine to negotiate.
•corruption in the TCC and VLK is used by enemy propaganda against mobilization.
•call for mobilization of deputies and officials propaganda mechanism
•the entire campaign is organized in order to prevent the Ukrainian Armed Forces from replenishing their reserves.
https://t.me/rezident_ua/19593
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:20 utc | 11
Our source in the OP said that the General Staff is asking the Office of the President to strengthen information support for mobilization; due to corruption scandals and videos of harsh treatment of Ukrainians, the process of replenishing reserves has been disrupted.
Technologists at Bankova want to use the standard method, blaming the failure of mobilization on the Kremlin, which organized an information campaign to discredit the TCC and large losses at the front in order to intimidate the Ukrainians. TsIPSO is already working on this track, trying to form a set of enemy propaganda narratives:
• Kremlin agents who discredit military commissars are withdrawing their mobilization
•the enemy is trying to disrupt mobilization and force Ukraine to negotiate.
•corruption in the TCC and VLK is used by enemy propaganda against mobilization.
•call for mobilization of deputies and officials propaganda mechanism
•the entire campaign is organized in order to prevent the Ukrainian Armed Forces from replenishing their reserves.
https://t.me/rezident_ua/19593
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:20 utc | 12
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:17 utc | 4
Ukraine declaring war on Russia, would probably resolve some potential administrational, political, rules-of-engagement, deployment and other restrictions and problems for Russian side.
Posted by: unimperator | Sep 10 2023 13:26 utc | 13
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:17 utc | 4
Ukraine declaring war on Russia, would probably resolve some potential administrational, political, rules-of-engagement, deployment and other restrictions and problems for Russian side.
Posted by: unimperator | Sep 10 2023 13:26 utc | 14
About Ua capabilities
Some or many won’t agree with my assessment, but I do believe that is worth contemplating over it.
We are using the phrase “to the last Ukrainian”, too often,( I wrote about it earlier) which we, to emphasize and make an argument stronger, always combine with their nonstop mobilization and, now, also, with mobilizing those who are unfit for military service. If it’s followed by some video of the forceful recruiting, even better. For us.
However, we tend to forget one crucial thing. In Artemovsk, many of those who fought for AFU were territorial defense units, with little or no training. They were sent, along with better-trained and equipped troops to try to hold the city. As a logical conclusion of their participation, they were mostly wiped out to the last men, or rendered ineffective due to terrible losses sustained. No one contests that fact, because it’s true, and well-known. Wagner did a good job.
But, you will remember that many are terdefense units. Right? Let’s go forward. Only a few months later, AFU attacked with heavy force in Zaporozhye, and recently in Donetsk. They still hold Marinka, Avdeevka, and Ugledar, and slowly retreat in Kypiansk’s direction.
Now, those attacking in Zaporozhye & Donetsk are Western and domestically trained troops, heavily armed, in significant amounts with Western weapons. Now, I don’t want to reinvent the wheel, and claim something, but Artemovsk was delaying action, and paid dearly by an AFU. Ukraine’s high command decided to buy time in the blood (tbh, they couldn’t do it in another way) but sent those with lower combat value, to save troops for the main attack.
Now, after all this time, the main attack wasn’t decisive nor lethal, as some feared. In Ua HQ don’t sit idiots. They are trained in the same schools as Russian generals. If you believe in the opposite, you are wrong. They tried the form of blitzkrieg attack, which proved futile, probably under the influence of NATO Generals. However, they are still attacking. A logical question arises. Why are they attacking? Is it time to call it off?
Often the used answer is: 1) They can’t do it, NATO doesn’t allow it; 2) It’s for the PR. I will offer answer no 3) which you may agree or disagree with. The offense is the best defense. While the grouping currently fighting is being spent, (at this point, already over 80.000 Kia/Wia/Mia), Ua is doing the same thing that the Artemovsk group did – meaning: forming, training, and equipping another main battle group, and at the same time creating, again, a secondary group which will consist of defense units.
The job of the latter will be to take and try to absorb the Russian counter-strike as much as possible without the need to sacrifice too much of the main strike group, in terms of the men and equipment. The idea is similar to ours, allow the enemy to attack, slow him down, wear him as much as possible and when the time is right, strike again with a newly created main group. Then repeat if needed.
You see, Ua complains about men, but maybe not because of what we are thinking of.
Recruitment centers were under pressure to fulfill quotas. Being corrupted, they let go of many. Kiev and bigger cities are full of military-capable men. The problem is in inefficiency of recruiters. All those fit will go to better training to create a new main group.
All those unfit, young, old, women (maybe), who are intended to contain the Russian attack will get minimal training. They don’t need better, except knowing how to shoot, because they would be sitting in the trenches and fortifications, waiting for the Russian army to flush them out, but at the same time to wear themselves down in the process
Everything that we have seen so far, from the beginning of the SMO and onwards, led us to think that such development is not only possible but has already been used on several occasions. Such an approach is paid dearly in terms of human lives and it’s not honorable, but that who fights with honor, obviously didn’t wage war.
In fact, similar examples we can find in the old Soviet manuals and teachings, some directly from the battlefield of WW2 against Germans, where, some divisions of low quality were put first, to try to weaken the Germans, thus allowing more worthy Soviet troops to capitalize on weaken enemy. Both sides know that.
Regarding weapons lost, losses in hardware are big for UA, but they have plenty of. Keep in mind that weapons are flowing non-stop. The news that the USA is sending 190 MRAPS a few days ago passed almost unnoticed. There are many such cases. So, no, Ukraine will not run out of weapons anytime soon.
Personally, I believe that the path to victory in this conflict, chosen by Moscow, is to break the possibility of Ua waging war for generations to come. Degradation, exhaustion, will-breaking, and utter defeat, a kind of war of attrition, but on a much grander scale is the solution accepted. Similar also writes in Soviet strategic doctrine. That means that the war will not end anytime soon.
After that, it won’t be any Ukraine anymore
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/62609
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:27 utc | 15
About Ua capabilities
Some or many won’t agree with my assessment, but I do believe that is worth contemplating over it.
We are using the phrase “to the last Ukrainian”, too often,( I wrote about it earlier) which we, to emphasize and make an argument stronger, always combine with their nonstop mobilization and, now, also, with mobilizing those who are unfit for military service. If it’s followed by some video of the forceful recruiting, even better. For us.
However, we tend to forget one crucial thing. In Artemovsk, many of those who fought for AFU were territorial defense units, with little or no training. They were sent, along with better-trained and equipped troops to try to hold the city. As a logical conclusion of their participation, they were mostly wiped out to the last men, or rendered ineffective due to terrible losses sustained. No one contests that fact, because it’s true, and well-known. Wagner did a good job.
But, you will remember that many are terdefense units. Right? Let’s go forward. Only a few months later, AFU attacked with heavy force in Zaporozhye, and recently in Donetsk. They still hold Marinka, Avdeevka, and Ugledar, and slowly retreat in Kypiansk’s direction.
Now, those attacking in Zaporozhye & Donetsk are Western and domestically trained troops, heavily armed, in significant amounts with Western weapons. Now, I don’t want to reinvent the wheel, and claim something, but Artemovsk was delaying action, and paid dearly by an AFU. Ukraine’s high command decided to buy time in the blood (tbh, they couldn’t do it in another way) but sent those with lower combat value, to save troops for the main attack.
Now, after all this time, the main attack wasn’t decisive nor lethal, as some feared. In Ua HQ don’t sit idiots. They are trained in the same schools as Russian generals. If you believe in the opposite, you are wrong. They tried the form of blitzkrieg attack, which proved futile, probably under the influence of NATO Generals. However, they are still attacking. A logical question arises. Why are they attacking? Is it time to call it off?
Often the used answer is: 1) They can’t do it, NATO doesn’t allow it; 2) It’s for the PR. I will offer answer no 3) which you may agree or disagree with. The offense is the best defense. While the grouping currently fighting is being spent, (at this point, already over 80.000 Kia/Wia/Mia), Ua is doing the same thing that the Artemovsk group did – meaning: forming, training, and equipping another main battle group, and at the same time creating, again, a secondary group which will consist of defense units.
The job of the latter will be to take and try to absorb the Russian counter-strike as much as possible without the need to sacrifice too much of the main strike group, in terms of the men and equipment. The idea is similar to ours, allow the enemy to attack, slow him down, wear him as much as possible and when the time is right, strike again with a newly created main group. Then repeat if needed.
You see, Ua complains about men, but maybe not because of what we are thinking of.
Recruitment centers were under pressure to fulfill quotas. Being corrupted, they let go of many. Kiev and bigger cities are full of military-capable men. The problem is in inefficiency of recruiters. All those fit will go to better training to create a new main group.
All those unfit, young, old, women (maybe), who are intended to contain the Russian attack will get minimal training. They don’t need better, except knowing how to shoot, because they would be sitting in the trenches and fortifications, waiting for the Russian army to flush them out, but at the same time to wear themselves down in the process
Everything that we have seen so far, from the beginning of the SMO and onwards, led us to think that such development is not only possible but has already been used on several occasions. Such an approach is paid dearly in terms of human lives and it’s not honorable, but that who fights with honor, obviously didn’t wage war.
In fact, similar examples we can find in the old Soviet manuals and teachings, some directly from the battlefield of WW2 against Germans, where, some divisions of low quality were put first, to try to weaken the Germans, thus allowing more worthy Soviet troops to capitalize on weaken enemy. Both sides know that.
Regarding weapons lost, losses in hardware are big for UA, but they have plenty of. Keep in mind that weapons are flowing non-stop. The news that the USA is sending 190 MRAPS a few days ago passed almost unnoticed. There are many such cases. So, no, Ukraine will not run out of weapons anytime soon.
Personally, I believe that the path to victory in this conflict, chosen by Moscow, is to break the possibility of Ua waging war for generations to come. Degradation, exhaustion, will-breaking, and utter defeat, a kind of war of attrition, but on a much grander scale is the solution accepted. Similar also writes in Soviet strategic doctrine. That means that the war will not end anytime soon.
After that, it won’t be any Ukraine anymore
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/62609
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:27 utc | 16
What about a separate thread for Down South parroting!?
Posted by: Baddy | Sep 10 2023 13:31 utc | 17
What about a separate thread for Down South parroting!?
Posted by: Baddy | Sep 10 2023 13:31 utc | 18
https://t.me/NewResistance/23953
Four Russian soldiers capture 11 Ukrainian soldiers in a bunker, drone video. Almost certainly those Ukrainians had already agreed to surrender by radio. Otherwise the Russians, as per SOP, would have tossed in a couple of grenades first.
Note Ukrainian Number Four who starts climbing out with one hand not raised and is promptly warned by a burst fired into the ground.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 10 2023 13:36 utc | 19
https://t.me/NewResistance/23953
Four Russian soldiers capture 11 Ukrainian soldiers in a bunker, drone video. Almost certainly those Ukrainians had already agreed to surrender by radio. Otherwise the Russians, as per SOP, would have tossed in a couple of grenades first.
Note Ukrainian Number Four who starts climbing out with one hand not raised and is promptly warned by a burst fired into the ground.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 10 2023 13:36 utc | 20
@Down South 8:
This is nothing new. The nazis have been sacrificing Volkssturm since mid last year, that’s how they managed to keep fit units for their Kharkov and Kherson offensives. I had at the time compared it to the sacrifice of VietCong units in the Tet Offensive to break the American will to fight while keeping back the North Vietnamese People’s Army to continue the war.
The thing is now that even their held back units are being thrown in and as Simplicius76 said in his latest, NATO training is proving significantly inferior to the training and experience of regular grunts in the Ukrainian army.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 10 2023 13:45 utc | 21
@Down South 8:
This is nothing new. The nazis have been sacrificing Volkssturm since mid last year, that’s how they managed to keep fit units for their Kharkov and Kherson offensives. I had at the time compared it to the sacrifice of VietCong units in the Tet Offensive to break the American will to fight while keeping back the North Vietnamese People’s Army to continue the war.
The thing is now that even their held back units are being thrown in and as Simplicius76 said in his latest, NATO training is proving significantly inferior to the training and experience of regular grunts in the Ukrainian army.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 10 2023 13:45 utc | 22
Either Ze was told by Blinken to fly in with cup in hand to Republicans for $$, or in defiance of Blinken. Hard to know.
Think Blinken wants this over for Biden’s campaign & Republicans are gunning badly for China.
Facts are… it’s all in Russia’s control now… the US/Zelensky can “want” all day long.
Sooner or later, the US will figure it out, it wasn’t the “collective West grand plan”… it was Russia & Chinas.
Stupid narcissistic idiots. Publicizing their intent for years.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Sep 10 2023 13:49 utc | 23
Either Ze was told by Blinken to fly in with cup in hand to Republicans for $$, or in defiance of Blinken. Hard to know.
Think Blinken wants this over for Biden’s campaign & Republicans are gunning badly for China.
Facts are… it’s all in Russia’s control now… the US/Zelensky can “want” all day long.
Sooner or later, the US will figure it out, it wasn’t the “collective West grand plan”… it was Russia & Chinas.
Stupid narcissistic idiots. Publicizing their intent for years.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Sep 10 2023 13:49 utc | 24
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:27 utc | 8
It is a “valid” human wave military tactic to use force mobilized to try to wear out defending sides. And more mobilized people allow to send more people to EU country to get trained as the new “core formation”, while people given 1 week training are expended to wear down attacker, or in this case, to attack to wear down the defender.
In the summer of 2022, the mobilization was significantly smaller and inefficient in Ukraine, but simultaneously the Russian force was also much smaller, which more or less balanced each other. Ukraine did the same thing back then, use mobilized 1 week force to attack and/or hold the line in places, while they trained core formation.
Now Ukraine needs “total mobilization”, in order to have enough people to keep pressure attacking/and or defending places like Kupyansk and Raihorodka. So we saw a repeat of Summer and Fall 2022, just on a larger scale now.
Posted by: unimperator | Sep 10 2023 13:52 utc | 25
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:27 utc | 8
It is a “valid” human wave military tactic to use force mobilized to try to wear out defending sides. And more mobilized people allow to send more people to EU country to get trained as the new “core formation”, while people given 1 week training are expended to wear down attacker, or in this case, to attack to wear down the defender.
In the summer of 2022, the mobilization was significantly smaller and inefficient in Ukraine, but simultaneously the Russian force was also much smaller, which more or less balanced each other. Ukraine did the same thing back then, use mobilized 1 week force to attack and/or hold the line in places, while they trained core formation.
Now Ukraine needs “total mobilization”, in order to have enough people to keep pressure attacking/and or defending places like Kupyansk and Raihorodka. So we saw a repeat of Summer and Fall 2022, just on a larger scale now.
Posted by: unimperator | Sep 10 2023 13:52 utc | 26
Declaring war on Russia lol
Do they realize this means you are basically telling Russia you will fight to the death?
Russia will be obliged to completely obliterate Ukraine.
I doubt this will happen. Its equivalent to suicide.
Comedian has a better option which is to hold elections and be extracted by helicopter from Kiev the moment he loses them. Money bags and all. All the way to Miami.
Posted by: Comandante | Sep 10 2023 14:14 utc | 27
Declaring war on Russia lol
Do they realize this means you are basically telling Russia you will fight to the death?
Russia will be obliged to completely obliterate Ukraine.
I doubt this will happen. Its equivalent to suicide.
Comedian has a better option which is to hold elections and be extracted by helicopter from Kiev the moment he loses them. Money bags and all. All the way to Miami.
Posted by: Comandante | Sep 10 2023 14:14 utc | 28
Is the western narrative finally spent?
The Telegraph:
Time is running out for Ukraine. After 18 months of war, it is no longer a question of if the Western alliance will falter, but when. Since the start, despite making many of the right noises and supplying some military hardware, France and Germany, in particular, have been reluctant partners. Their leaders have often seemed more concerned with finding an “off-ramp” for Putin than ejecting his forces from Ukraine. As well as dependency on Russian energy, a pacifist instinct among Western European political classes has led to neglect of their armed forces and a corresponding fear of escalation.
Posted by: simplex | Sep 10 2023 14:19 utc | 29
Is the western narrative finally spent?
The Telegraph:
Time is running out for Ukraine. After 18 months of war, it is no longer a question of if the Western alliance will falter, but when. Since the start, despite making many of the right noises and supplying some military hardware, France and Germany, in particular, have been reluctant partners. Their leaders have often seemed more concerned with finding an “off-ramp” for Putin than ejecting his forces from Ukraine. As well as dependency on Russian energy, a pacifist instinct among Western European political classes has led to neglect of their armed forces and a corresponding fear of escalation.
Posted by: simplex | Sep 10 2023 14:19 utc | 30
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 10 2023 13:45 utc | 11
NATO training is not inferior, it’s inadequate, big difference.
Posted by: Milites | Sep 10 2023 14:21 utc | 31
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 10 2023 13:45 utc | 11
NATO training is not inferior, it’s inadequate, big difference.
Posted by: Milites | Sep 10 2023 14:21 utc | 32
@ Comandante | Sep 10 2023 14:14 utc | 14
Given elensky’s remarkable ability to eliminate opposition, I find it difficult to imagine his losing an election.
Unless of course he loses the support of his English and American handlers.
Posted by: malenkov | Sep 10 2023 14:22 utc | 33
@ Comandante | Sep 10 2023 14:14 utc | 14
Given elensky’s remarkable ability to eliminate opposition, I find it difficult to imagine his losing an election.
Unless of course he loses the support of his English and American handlers.
Posted by: malenkov | Sep 10 2023 14:22 utc | 34
milites: It’s also often the wrong kind of training.
Posted by: malenkov | Sep 10 2023 14:24 utc | 35
milites: It’s also often the wrong kind of training.
Posted by: malenkov | Sep 10 2023 14:24 utc | 36
Forced conscription as a tool for ethnic cleansing
Kiev performs its forced recruiting of soldiers preferably in Tschernigow, Sumy, Dnjepropetrowsk, Odessa, Saporoschje, Charkow und Nikolajew oblasts. These are the regions in Eastern Ukraine where ethnic Russians are strong minorities, or even the majority of the population. Once recruited, the men receive little, if any, training and equipment, to be used as cannon fodder on critical sections of the frontline – while their colleagues which have been recruited in Western Ukraine are assigned to comparatively safe backward positions.
This sheds a light upon Kiev‘s seemingly irrational policy of accepting high KIA losses of their own troops – they don’t consider these ethnic Russians their own people. In fact, they’re determined to get rid of them – there are even reports of young conscripts being forced at gunpoint to enter Russian minefields – and now Kiev has this opportunity of using forced conscription as a tool of ethnic cleansing.
Once presented as a war ingredient, the practice is accepted by western countries. Their comment may be something like „we don’t tell Ukrainians how to fight their war“. So they are justifying the organized extermination of an ethnic group, by trivializing it as just another detail of war. Of course, USA and UK are the main perpetrators here, but, for instance, Germany’s role in looking the other way, factually allowing Ukraine to exterminate its Russian population, must be seen as another significant factor.
I’ve posted on the subject earlier with little more in hand than common sense and someone else‘s post. However, this time, I can cite Thomas Röper’s piece in Anti-SPIEGEL of today as my (German language) source:
https://www.anti-spiegel.ru/2023/volkssturm-als-tarnung-fuer-genozid-an-russischer-bevoelkerung/
Posted by: grunzt | Sep 10 2023 14:25 utc | 37
Forced conscription as a tool for ethnic cleansing
Kiev performs its forced recruiting of soldiers preferably in Tschernigow, Sumy, Dnjepropetrowsk, Odessa, Saporoschje, Charkow und Nikolajew oblasts. These are the regions in Eastern Ukraine where ethnic Russians are strong minorities, or even the majority of the population. Once recruited, the men receive little, if any, training and equipment, to be used as cannon fodder on critical sections of the frontline – while their colleagues which have been recruited in Western Ukraine are assigned to comparatively safe backward positions.
This sheds a light upon Kiev‘s seemingly irrational policy of accepting high KIA losses of their own troops – they don’t consider these ethnic Russians their own people. In fact, they’re determined to get rid of them – there are even reports of young conscripts being forced at gunpoint to enter Russian minefields – and now Kiev has this opportunity of using forced conscription as a tool of ethnic cleansing.
Once presented as a war ingredient, the practice is accepted by western countries. Their comment may be something like „we don’t tell Ukrainians how to fight their war“. So they are justifying the organized extermination of an ethnic group, by trivializing it as just another detail of war. Of course, USA and UK are the main perpetrators here, but, for instance, Germany’s role in looking the other way, factually allowing Ukraine to exterminate its Russian population, must be seen as another significant factor.
I’ve posted on the subject earlier with little more in hand than common sense and someone else‘s post. However, this time, I can cite Thomas Röper’s piece in Anti-SPIEGEL of today as my (German language) source:
https://www.anti-spiegel.ru/2023/volkssturm-als-tarnung-fuer-genozid-an-russischer-bevoelkerung/
Posted by: grunzt | Sep 10 2023 14:25 utc | 38
grunzt: Don’t forget the ethnic Hungarians from the Transcarpathian oblast. They were among the first to be fed into the meat grinder.
Posted by: malenkov | Sep 10 2023 14:30 utc | 39
grunzt: Don’t forget the ethnic Hungarians from the Transcarpathian oblast. They were among the first to be fed into the meat grinder.
Posted by: malenkov | Sep 10 2023 14:30 utc | 40
NATO still believes all it has to accomplish is keep the fighting on simmer for a year or so, and then the sanctions will finally cause a revolution inside Russia.
2 Questions Barflies – can anything counter NATO’s belief ?
Also, Do Barflies still think The Ukrainian Civil War will Continue into 2025 ?
Thank you for your thoughts.
Posted by: Exile | Sep 10 2023 14:40 utc | 41
NATO still believes all it has to accomplish is keep the fighting on simmer for a year or so, and then the sanctions will finally cause a revolution inside Russia.
2 Questions Barflies – can anything counter NATO’s belief ?
Also, Do Barflies still think The Ukrainian Civil War will Continue into 2025 ?
Thank you for your thoughts.
Posted by: Exile | Sep 10 2023 14:40 utc | 42
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 10 2023 13:45 utc | 11
The Tet Offensive advanced the goals of the VCP by sacrificing their rivals the NLF, who were seen as an ideological threat to their political control. Nothing noble about it at all.
Posted by: Milites | Sep 10 2023 14:51 utc | 43
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 10 2023 13:45 utc | 11
The Tet Offensive advanced the goals of the VCP by sacrificing their rivals the NLF, who were seen as an ideological threat to their political control. Nothing noble about it at all.
Posted by: Milites | Sep 10 2023 14:51 utc | 44
RE: “Also, Do Barflies still think The Ukrainian Civil War will Continue into 2025 ?”
Thank you for your thoughts.
Posted by: Exile | Sep 10 2023 14:40 utc | 21
What “Civil War”?
All of Ukraine is occupied by 2 Major Powers… the US & Russia… the “Civil War” ended with the ending of Minsk.
2014-2022 was the “Civil War”… that’s over.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Sep 10 2023 14:53 utc | 45
RE: “Also, Do Barflies still think The Ukrainian Civil War will Continue into 2025 ?”
Thank you for your thoughts.
Posted by: Exile | Sep 10 2023 14:40 utc | 21
What “Civil War”?
All of Ukraine is occupied by 2 Major Powers… the US & Russia… the “Civil War” ended with the ending of Minsk.
2014-2022 was the “Civil War”… that’s over.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Sep 10 2023 14:53 utc | 46
@21
NATO beliefs are subordinate to UK/US. If republicans shutter the US gov’t on Oct 1 maybe sign US losing interest.
Barring Republican revolt. Will simmer, maybe to 2025.
USA has not sent the full load sent to Kabul, yet.
Posted by: paddy | Sep 10 2023 14:55 utc | 47
@21
NATO beliefs are subordinate to UK/US. If republicans shutter the US gov’t on Oct 1 maybe sign US losing interest.
Barring Republican revolt. Will simmer, maybe to 2025.
USA has not sent the full load sent to Kabul, yet.
Posted by: paddy | Sep 10 2023 14:55 utc | 48
Trubind1 | Sep 10 2023 14:53 utc | 23
Slavic Civil War might be more accurate.
Posted by: dh | Sep 10 2023 15:00 utc | 49
Trubind1 | Sep 10 2023 14:53 utc | 23
Slavic Civil War might be more accurate.
Posted by: dh | Sep 10 2023 15:00 utc | 50
“…The Tet Offensive advanced the goals of the VCP by sacrificing their rivals the NLF, who were seen as an ideological threat to their political control. Nothing noble about it at all…”
Milite@22
This is precisely the kind of ideologically founded narrative that you fulminate against whenever the propaganda that you are regurgitating is not anti-communist. When as above it is taken directly from the Pentagon’s psyops unit you treat it as gospel
Posted by: bevin | Sep 10 2023 15:01 utc | 51
“…The Tet Offensive advanced the goals of the VCP by sacrificing their rivals the NLF, who were seen as an ideological threat to their political control. Nothing noble about it at all…”
Milite@22
This is precisely the kind of ideologically founded narrative that you fulminate against whenever the propaganda that you are regurgitating is not anti-communist. When as above it is taken directly from the Pentagon’s psyops unit you treat it as gospel
Posted by: bevin | Sep 10 2023 15:01 utc | 52
RE: “can anything counter NATO’s belief ?”
Posted by: Exile | Sep 10 2023 14:40 utc | 21
“Beliefs?” One would think “reality” would be a good “counter”. however, aside from that… No. That’s how “beliefs” work.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Sep 10 2023 15:06 utc | 53
RE: “can anything counter NATO’s belief ?”
Posted by: Exile | Sep 10 2023 14:40 utc | 21
“Beliefs?” One would think “reality” would be a good “counter”. however, aside from that… No. That’s how “beliefs” work.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Sep 10 2023 15:06 utc | 54
Recruitment centers were under pressure to fulfill quotas. Being corrupted, they let go of many. Kiev and bigger cities are full of military-capable men. The problem is in inefficiency of recruiters. Slavyangrad
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:27 utc | 8
Wrong. Bribes work, of course, but people are carefully selected. I would be very surprised if Kiev-Lvov is touched by mobilization. Hungarian, Romanian and Odessa regions were always well recruited to be emptied and that since 2014. Even Russia seems to be afraid of Kiev-Lvov. Rarely a drone hits something only during the night, no shortage of fuel, electricity or anything. And some people are surprised there are no protests in Ukr against the kamikaze attacks. That’s why, the war is in Donbass not in Ukr, and Ukr soldiers are the poor not the superiors.
I see that since BoJo is in Ukr tour, they’re trying to land for selfies on Snake Island and Crimea using little boats. 10-20-30 kamikaze on boats almost every night for absolutely no useful reason. Such retarded ideas can only come from him, he probably sees himself as governor of Odessa in the future and “works” in the area.
Posted by: rk | Sep 10 2023 15:06 utc | 55
Recruitment centers were under pressure to fulfill quotas. Being corrupted, they let go of many. Kiev and bigger cities are full of military-capable men. The problem is in inefficiency of recruiters. Slavyangrad
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 13:27 utc | 8
Wrong. Bribes work, of course, but people are carefully selected. I would be very surprised if Kiev-Lvov is touched by mobilization. Hungarian, Romanian and Odessa regions were always well recruited to be emptied and that since 2014. Even Russia seems to be afraid of Kiev-Lvov. Rarely a drone hits something only during the night, no shortage of fuel, electricity or anything. And some people are surprised there are no protests in Ukr against the kamikaze attacks. That’s why, the war is in Donbass not in Ukr, and Ukr soldiers are the poor not the superiors.
I see that since BoJo is in Ukr tour, they’re trying to land for selfies on Snake Island and Crimea using little boats. 10-20-30 kamikaze on boats almost every night for absolutely no useful reason. Such retarded ideas can only come from him, he probably sees himself as governor of Odessa in the future and “works” in the area.
Posted by: rk | Sep 10 2023 15:06 utc | 56
@safe | Sep 10 2023 15:07 utc | 29
This is all slowly turning into yet another step in the WEF Master Plan.
It is a self-defeating plan, as “master” is a no-no word in their ideology.
Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 10 2023 15:23 utc | 57
@safe | Sep 10 2023 15:07 utc | 29
This is all slowly turning into yet another step in the WEF Master Plan.
It is a self-defeating plan, as “master” is a no-no word in their ideology.
Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 10 2023 15:23 utc | 58
@Posted by: Exile | Sep 10 2023 14:40 utc | 21
Sanctions are beginning to wreck EU economies while the Russian economy has mostly recovered from the sucker punch delivered by the “west”. I believe the results on the battlefield are changing the narrative/belief even now.
I don’t see how this can continue until 2025. The attrition rate is far too high and Losing 70 to 100k kia/wounded
has hollowed out the Ukraine army. The reserves meant for followup attacks are being used up trying to breach the first line of defense. With the upcoming rainy season and then winter, it will be become much harder to sustain the offensive. In my opinion, the Ukies gave it their best shot and fell woefully short. It’s all downhill from here fro them. I think Ukraine will continue to make small incremental gains around Rabotino with huge losses while Russia will bide it’s time making small gains in the Kupinask area with minimal losses. But the Russians are very opague about their plans, so who knows what they might be planning?
Posted by: ctiger | Sep 10 2023 15:25 utc | 59
@Posted by: Exile | Sep 10 2023 14:40 utc | 21
Sanctions are beginning to wreck EU economies while the Russian economy has mostly recovered from the sucker punch delivered by the “west”. I believe the results on the battlefield are changing the narrative/belief even now.
I don’t see how this can continue until 2025. The attrition rate is far too high and Losing 70 to 100k kia/wounded
has hollowed out the Ukraine army. The reserves meant for followup attacks are being used up trying to breach the first line of defense. With the upcoming rainy season and then winter, it will be become much harder to sustain the offensive. In my opinion, the Ukies gave it their best shot and fell woefully short. It’s all downhill from here fro them. I think Ukraine will continue to make small incremental gains around Rabotino with huge losses while Russia will bide it’s time making small gains in the Kupinask area with minimal losses. But the Russians are very opague about their plans, so who knows what they might be planning?
Posted by: ctiger | Sep 10 2023 15:25 utc | 60
On social networks, they again began to discuss the case of declaring war on Russia, which is necessary to legalize aggression, and most importantly, begin to form a real coalition around Ukraine. According to our information from the Office of the President, Zelensky did not declare war at the request of the United States in order to be able to receive financial assistance.
Now mobilization is taking place in the country in violation of the Constitution, but who cares about such trifles? In the future, the government will receive thousands of lawsuits in the European courts for illegal mobilization and we will be forced to pay hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation for the illegal actions of the TCC, since the decree of the president or the Ministry of Defense does not replace the Constitution.
https://t.me/rezident_ua/19597
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 15:35 utc | 61
On social networks, they again began to discuss the case of declaring war on Russia, which is necessary to legalize aggression, and most importantly, begin to form a real coalition around Ukraine. According to our information from the Office of the President, Zelensky did not declare war at the request of the United States in order to be able to receive financial assistance.
Now mobilization is taking place in the country in violation of the Constitution, but who cares about such trifles? In the future, the government will receive thousands of lawsuits in the European courts for illegal mobilization and we will be forced to pay hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation for the illegal actions of the TCC, since the decree of the president or the Ministry of Defense does not replace the Constitution.
https://t.me/rezident_ua/19597
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 15:35 utc | 62
Our source in the OP said that the Office of the President has allocated additional funding for American lobbyists whom Bankova hires to solve necessary problems in the United States. Lobbyists received $50 million to persuade Republicans to provide Ukraine with $20 billion in military and financial aid for 2024.
https://t.me/rezident_ua/19598
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 15:36 utc | 63
Our source in the OP said that the Office of the President has allocated additional funding for American lobbyists whom Bankova hires to solve necessary problems in the United States. Lobbyists received $50 million to persuade Republicans to provide Ukraine with $20 billion in military and financial aid for 2024.
https://t.me/rezident_ua/19598
Posted by: Down South | Sep 10 2023 15:36 utc | 64
Posted by: ctiger | Sep 10 2023 15:25 utc | 31
It’s so bad MSM is using USDRUB exchange rate as proof of Russia losing, and succumbing to sanctions.
Posted by: unimperator | Sep 10 2023 15:37 utc | 65
Posted by: ctiger | Sep 10 2023 15:25 utc | 31
It’s so bad MSM is using USDRUB exchange rate as proof of Russia losing, and succumbing to sanctions.
Posted by: unimperator | Sep 10 2023 15:37 utc | 66
It’s hard to know for sure what to believe, but it does look like Ukraine is using “human wave” attacks in their counteroffensive, trading large numbers of people for small gains.
But.
Perhaps there is another angle to this? I heard a rumor that the new Ukrainian mobilizations are mostly drawing from the eastern, Russian-speaker-heavy part of the country. What if it’s mainly Russian-speaking Ukrainians dying in these assaults? That could explain calling up people otherwise unfit – they point is not for them to win, but to die.
Could this be the Ukrainian nationalists using Russia to ‘ethnically cleanse’ Ukraine of Russian-speakers? Russia expends manpower and material, and gets the blame, to do the Ukrainians dirty work for them. Brilliant! And if true, Putin can’t admit it, because it would demoralize the Russian soldiers.
I’m not saying that I know for certain that this is what’s happening, but just to open the possibility. You don’t have to love the western elites behind all this to admit that the Ukrainian nationalists have been vicious, intelligent, and inventive.
Posted by: TG | Sep 10 2023 15:41 utc | 67
It’s hard to know for sure what to believe, but it does look like Ukraine is using “human wave” attacks in their counteroffensive, trading large numbers of people for small gains.
But.
Perhaps there is another angle to this? I heard a rumor that the new Ukrainian mobilizations are mostly drawing from the eastern, Russian-speaker-heavy part of the country. What if it’s mainly Russian-speaking Ukrainians dying in these assaults? That could explain calling up people otherwise unfit – they point is not for them to win, but to die.
Could this be the Ukrainian nationalists using Russia to ‘ethnically cleanse’ Ukraine of Russian-speakers? Russia expends manpower and material, and gets the blame, to do the Ukrainians dirty work for them. Brilliant! And if true, Putin can’t admit it, because it would demoralize the Russian soldiers.
I’m not saying that I know for certain that this is what’s happening, but just to open the possibility. You don’t have to love the western elites behind all this to admit that the Ukrainian nationalists have been vicious, intelligent, and inventive.
Posted by: TG | Sep 10 2023 15:41 utc | 68
“… You don’t have to love the western elites behind all this to admit that the Ukrainian nationalists have been vicious, intelligent, and inventive.” TG@35
And lavishly funded from countries thousands of miles away in which they are assured of luxurious refuge when their bloody game is over.
Posted by: bevin | Sep 10 2023 15:53 utc | 71
“… You don’t have to love the western elites behind all this to admit that the Ukrainian nationalists have been vicious, intelligent, and inventive.” TG@35
And lavishly funded from countries thousands of miles away in which they are assured of luxurious refuge when their bloody game is over.
Posted by: bevin | Sep 10 2023 15:53 utc | 72
”🇰🇵🇷🇺 The Financial Times writes that the DPRK is ready to enter into an arms supply agreement with Russia.
Korea may offer multiple launch rocket systems, ammunition, and short-range ballistic missiles.
Now it is clear to those who hoped that “Russia will be left without weapons” and will lose and thus disintegrate as a state, that this will not happen.
Russia can make war for years, down to the last Ukrainian if necessary. Russia is already getting weapons from Iran and North Korea, and China hasn’t even started yet, while NATO has dangerously reduced its capabilities.”
Regardless whether true or not, countries should have good trade relations. In other words, excellent news.
People in the west laugh at North Korea, but it can easily outproduce anything EU industry can muster. It gets high quality machine tools and equipment from China, cheap energy and ammunition and weapon blueprints from Russia, and has a capable population not infected by neoliberalism.
Posted by: unimperator | Sep 10 2023 16:01 utc | 73
”🇰🇵🇷🇺 The Financial Times writes that the DPRK is ready to enter into an arms supply agreement with Russia.
Korea may offer multiple launch rocket systems, ammunition, and short-range ballistic missiles.
Now it is clear to those who hoped that “Russia will be left without weapons” and will lose and thus disintegrate as a state, that this will not happen.
Russia can make war for years, down to the last Ukrainian if necessary. Russia is already getting weapons from Iran and North Korea, and China hasn’t even started yet, while NATO has dangerously reduced its capabilities.”
Regardless whether true or not, countries should have good trade relations. In other words, excellent news.
People in the west laugh at North Korea, but it can easily outproduce anything EU industry can muster. It gets high quality machine tools and equipment from China, cheap energy and ammunition and weapon blueprints from Russia, and has a capable population not infected by neoliberalism.
Posted by: unimperator | Sep 10 2023 16:01 utc | 74
Stephen Karganovic sees the Ukraine crisis as a re-run of the attacks that broke up Yugoslavia in the 1990s- neo-liberalism, meets ethnic cleansing and te smashing of inherited socialist neasures protecting the population.
“We have seen already how the Ukrainian plan to finish off the Donbas was conceived as a carbon copy of the Croatian “Operation Storm” of August 1995. That ghastly undertaking, which the Kiev regime was eager to emulate, resulted in the killing of thousands of civilians, forced expulsion of a quarter of a million Krajina Serbs, and the incorporation of their homeland into Croatia. The difference is that the Croat plan was resoundingly successful in reaching its barbaric objectives. The Ukrainian copycat plan, on the other hand, was a manifest failure. Its execution was unexpectedly thwarted by the Special Military Operation.
“The Konstantinovka market incident is the latest indication that the Ukrainian regime is in full-spectrum copycat mode. They are absorbing fast the false flag methodology of their Zagreb and Sarajevo colleagues during the Balkan conflict of the 1990s. In the multifaceted war that was waged in the Balkans, the military was only one of several fronts, all of roughly equal importance. From the beginning, the propaganda front carried great weight, having had a huge impact on the war’s progress and outcome.
“In Ukraine, there is a concerted effort to re-enact Balkan scenarios, amongst which false flags were a major political tool. The false flag formula tested and honed to perfection in the Balkans presupposes the following elements.
“First, the incident contrived to injure the reputation of the side deemed hostile to Western and their local satellites’ interests never happens randomly. It is always coordinated with currently significant political developments and conceived to amplify a propaganda benefit that can be derived from them. The wartime Sarajevo regime and its foreign sponsors in Bosnia acquired rich experience in staging false flags that were integrally woven into a broader political strategy. The famous false flag in the Vasa Miskin Street in Sarajevo in May 1992 was timed to occur just before European Union ambassadors were scheduled to consider imposing sanctions on Serbs in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The indignation whipped up as a result of that staged massacre successfully achieved the objective set for it. Shortly afterwards drastic sanctions were indeed imposed on the major supporter of the Bosnian Serbs….”
https://strategic-culture.su/news/2023/09/09/markale-reincarnated-in-konstantinovka-as-the-bosnian-playbook-comes-in-handy/
Posted by: bevin | Sep 10 2023 16:12 utc | 75
Stephen Karganovic sees the Ukraine crisis as a re-run of the attacks that broke up Yugoslavia in the 1990s- neo-liberalism, meets ethnic cleansing and te smashing of inherited socialist neasures protecting the population.
“We have seen already how the Ukrainian plan to finish off the Donbas was conceived as a carbon copy of the Croatian “Operation Storm” of August 1995. That ghastly undertaking, which the Kiev regime was eager to emulate, resulted in the killing of thousands of civilians, forced expulsion of a quarter of a million Krajina Serbs, and the incorporation of their homeland into Croatia. The difference is that the Croat plan was resoundingly successful in reaching its barbaric objectives. The Ukrainian copycat plan, on the other hand, was a manifest failure. Its execution was unexpectedly thwarted by the Special Military Operation.
“The Konstantinovka market incident is the latest indication that the Ukrainian regime is in full-spectrum copycat mode. They are absorbing fast the false flag methodology of their Zagreb and Sarajevo colleagues during the Balkan conflict of the 1990s. In the multifaceted war that was waged in the Balkans, the military was only one of several fronts, all of roughly equal importance. From the beginning, the propaganda front carried great weight, having had a huge impact on the war’s progress and outcome.
“In Ukraine, there is a concerted effort to re-enact Balkan scenarios, amongst which false flags were a major political tool. The false flag formula tested and honed to perfection in the Balkans presupposes the following elements.
“First, the incident contrived to injure the reputation of the side deemed hostile to Western and their local satellites’ interests never happens randomly. It is always coordinated with currently significant political developments and conceived to amplify a propaganda benefit that can be derived from them. The wartime Sarajevo regime and its foreign sponsors in Bosnia acquired rich experience in staging false flags that were integrally woven into a broader political strategy. The famous false flag in the Vasa Miskin Street in Sarajevo in May 1992 was timed to occur just before European Union ambassadors were scheduled to consider imposing sanctions on Serbs in the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia. The indignation whipped up as a result of that staged massacre successfully achieved the objective set for it. Shortly afterwards drastic sanctions were indeed imposed on the major supporter of the Bosnian Serbs….”
https://strategic-culture.su/news/2023/09/09/markale-reincarnated-in-konstantinovka-as-the-bosnian-playbook-comes-in-handy/
Posted by: bevin | Sep 10 2023 16:12 utc | 76
@ 21
Timing ? The main driver for the SMO is not to be found in the Ukraine. It’s already proven that the West will not stop the SMO. For Russia, the SMO serves many purposes, and they will only stop it when Russia had fulfilled all its goals – so not anytime soon. Russia faces a global war of survival that goes beyond the SMO. Even the official, minimal goals which Putin stated in December 2021, demilitarization, de-Nazification and de-NATO-ing Ukraine require a complete defeat of Kiev and of Western support for “404”.
But in reality. Russia’s goals have to be much broader. Together with the rest of the world, Russia needs to break Western hegemony over the Global South and over the EU. “Break”, not merely “damage” the hegemony. Once broken, the hegemony will never re-assert itself. So what’s required for ending the hegemony?
1. Damaging the West’s economies would be enough in itself because “breaking” these economies implies unacceptable losses and is a road to nuclear war. This isn’t in the interests of Russia or China. Greatly weakened Western economies mean an end to hegemony sooner than later. And, to be completely sober, the West is destroying its own economies and all Russia needs to do is to make sure the West keeps all its damn sanctions in place and for the West to stay inside the cage it accidentally made for itself.
2. Creation of new trade routes and global exchanges. This has been going on for decades now, but re-oriented global trade is starting to be the main dish, not a side dish. This is relatively easy to track and many sites do that.
3. De-dollarization will go slowly, according to Tom Luongo, because we must create new banking systems and clearinghouses. The process is underway, but it’s slow. The Global South is hesitant for many reasons, but this will accelerate.
4. Replacement of nearly all the EU governments, all US puppets. And also their lying MSM. This can’t happen until the citizens realize just how badly they have been screwed by Washington’s bitches. That will take years. I think France may be the first because their “fault lines” have been well-defined for 10 years. Macron doesn’t have a snowball’s chance of getting re-elected, and neither do most of his running dogs who were “helicoptered in” for previous elections. Macron’s party is all Astroturf, which burns easily. I expect it will take years for the Eurotrash to throw out all their puppets, but maybe the process will pick up speed as their economic situation gets more dire. I believe Russia will not renew its contracts for gas and oil when they expire in 2023 and 2025 – except for Hungary, and maybe a few other states. So Europeans face steadily growing economic hardship.
5. Extinction of the Baltic statelets as sovereign states. There is already a legal basis for ending Lithuania which blockaded Kaliningrad briefly in violation of its founding treaty (before the EU warned Vilnius to stop the blocakade immediately). There’s also a legal basis to end Finland as a state because it tore up the neutrality part of the treaty by which Finland was even recognized as a nation by the USSR (with Russia as the legal successor counterparty). Maybe Estonia and Latvia have done similar stunts. Latvia represses the 25% of the people who speak Russian. That by itself is grounds for an Article 51 action by Russia, even though the UN structure has always refused to recognize the discrimination. After the puppets in Riga lose their NATO “roof”, I would not be surprised to see some relatively non-kinetic actions to fix the problem.
6. Effective resolution of the China-US economic war. Of course China has all the advantages and is pulling ahead. It is important for the US and China to turn this away from confrontation and back to the cooperation that used to exist. This requires a massive change in thinking of how the US (and the West in general) organize their industrial policies. So that will be slow going and may even require fresh elites in the West. It’s not fantasy, but it’s not soon.
I could add other items, but the picture is clear: These are very “big ticket” items, and they are not going to happen soon. 5 years would be surprisingly fast. You need to recognize that these big ticket items are the drivers which govern the pace of the SMO. Russia is not going to let up the pressure in the Ukraine, because the Kremlin needs those sanctions to remain, and of course there will not be any “Minsk 3”. It doesn’t matter where the Russian military puts the gray zone, anywhere from its current location or all the way to the Polish border. That’s a military detail based on costs vs. opportunities. I hope the Russians will soon destroy Ukrainian artillery near Donetsk, but again, that’s only a detail.
Bottom line, is that 5 more years would be optimistic. It could easily take 10 years. Keep your eyes on the big picture.
Posted by: JessDTruth | Sep 10 2023 16:15 utc | 77
@ 21
Timing ? The main driver for the SMO is not to be found in the Ukraine. It’s already proven that the West will not stop the SMO. For Russia, the SMO serves many purposes, and they will only stop it when Russia had fulfilled all its goals – so not anytime soon. Russia faces a global war of survival that goes beyond the SMO. Even the official, minimal goals which Putin stated in December 2021, demilitarization, de-Nazification and de-NATO-ing Ukraine require a complete defeat of Kiev and of Western support for “404”.
But in reality. Russia’s goals have to be much broader. Together with the rest of the world, Russia needs to break Western hegemony over the Global South and over the EU. “Break”, not merely “damage” the hegemony. Once broken, the hegemony will never re-assert itself. So what’s required for ending the hegemony?
1. Damaging the West’s economies would be enough in itself because “breaking” these economies implies unacceptable losses and is a road to nuclear war. This isn’t in the interests of Russia or China. Greatly weakened Western economies mean an end to hegemony sooner than later. And, to be completely sober, the West is destroying its own economies and all Russia needs to do is to make sure the West keeps all its damn sanctions in place and for the West to stay inside the cage it accidentally made for itself.
2. Creation of new trade routes and global exchanges. This has been going on for decades now, but re-oriented global trade is starting to be the main dish, not a side dish. This is relatively easy to track and many sites do that.
3. De-dollarization will go slowly, according to Tom Luongo, because we must create new banking systems and clearinghouses. The process is underway, but it’s slow. The Global South is hesitant for many reasons, but this will accelerate.
4. Replacement of nearly all the EU governments, all US puppets. And also their lying MSM. This can’t happen until the citizens realize just how badly they have been screwed by Washington’s bitches. That will take years. I think France may be the first because their “fault lines” have been well-defined for 10 years. Macron doesn’t have a snowball’s chance of getting re-elected, and neither do most of his running dogs who were “helicoptered in” for previous elections. Macron’s party is all Astroturf, which burns easily. I expect it will take years for the Eurotrash to throw out all their puppets, but maybe the process will pick up speed as their economic situation gets more dire. I believe Russia will not renew its contracts for gas and oil when they expire in 2023 and 2025 – except for Hungary, and maybe a few other states. So Europeans face steadily growing economic hardship.
5. Extinction of the Baltic statelets as sovereign states. There is already a legal basis for ending Lithuania which blockaded Kaliningrad briefly in violation of its founding treaty (before the EU warned Vilnius to stop the blocakade immediately). There’s also a legal basis to end Finland as a state because it tore up the neutrality part of the treaty by which Finland was even recognized as a nation by the USSR (with Russia as the legal successor counterparty). Maybe Estonia and Latvia have done similar stunts. Latvia represses the 25% of the people who speak Russian. That by itself is grounds for an Article 51 action by Russia, even though the UN structure has always refused to recognize the discrimination. After the puppets in Riga lose their NATO “roof”, I would not be surprised to see some relatively non-kinetic actions to fix the problem.
6. Effective resolution of the China-US economic war. Of course China has all the advantages and is pulling ahead. It is important for the US and China to turn this away from confrontation and back to the cooperation that used to exist. This requires a massive change in thinking of how the US (and the West in general) organize their industrial policies. So that will be slow going and may even require fresh elites in the West. It’s not fantasy, but it’s not soon.
I could add other items, but the picture is clear: These are very “big ticket” items, and they are not going to happen soon. 5 years would be surprisingly fast. You need to recognize that these big ticket items are the drivers which govern the pace of the SMO. Russia is not going to let up the pressure in the Ukraine, because the Kremlin needs those sanctions to remain, and of course there will not be any “Minsk 3”. It doesn’t matter where the Russian military puts the gray zone, anywhere from its current location or all the way to the Polish border. That’s a military detail based on costs vs. opportunities. I hope the Russians will soon destroy Ukrainian artillery near Donetsk, but again, that’s only a detail.
Bottom line, is that 5 more years would be optimistic. It could easily take 10 years. Keep your eyes on the big picture.
Posted by: JessDTruth | Sep 10 2023 16:15 utc | 78
A real shift in narrative this week.
Ukraine’s counteroffensive is stalling. The West must prepare for humiliation
Posted by: The Accountant | Sep 10 2023 16:16 utc | 79
A real shift in narrative this week.
Ukraine’s counteroffensive is stalling. The West must prepare for humiliation
Posted by: The Accountant | Sep 10 2023 16:16 utc | 80
Posted by: TG | Sep 10 2023 15:41 utc | 35
Perhaps there is another angle to this?
As in – the real plan could even be stupider than we first thought?
I heard a rumor that the new Ukrainian mobilizations are mostly drawing from the eastern, Russian-speaker-heavy part of the country. What if it’s mainly Russian-speaking Ukrainians dying in these assaults? That could explain calling up people otherwise unfit – they point is not for them to win, but to die.
East or West these people have demonstrated they’re willing to die for the zionazi cause.
Politically, Russia loses nothing but enemies by killing them – not friends.
Could this be the Ukrainian nationalists using Russia to ‘ethnically cleanse’ Ukraine of Russian-speakers?
I don’t see how disemboweling a nation of it’s prime labour and fighting force serves the end of Ukrainian nationalists in reality, though I can see how they may fall under that delusion.
Russia expends manpower and material, and gets the blame, to do the Ukrainians dirty work for them.
Ukraine expends manpower and material in supporting the logistics around these armies. It’s not done for free.
Perhaps the stories of mass defections are true …
Brilliant! And if true, Putin can’t admit it, because it would demoralize the Russian soldiers.
In light of what I’ve just said it seems pretty block-headed.
Now, if Russians aren’t demoralised by fighting former countrymen (members of the USSR) then this won’t make much of a difference either.
I mean, when the Russians take a trench do you think they distinguish between Carpathian Ruthenians, Galicians, Tartars or ethnic Hungarian Ukrainians ???
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 10 2023 16:29 utc | 81
Posted by: TG | Sep 10 2023 15:41 utc | 35
Perhaps there is another angle to this?
As in – the real plan could even be stupider than we first thought?
I heard a rumor that the new Ukrainian mobilizations are mostly drawing from the eastern, Russian-speaker-heavy part of the country. What if it’s mainly Russian-speaking Ukrainians dying in these assaults? That could explain calling up people otherwise unfit – they point is not for them to win, but to die.
East or West these people have demonstrated they’re willing to die for the zionazi cause.
Politically, Russia loses nothing but enemies by killing them – not friends.
Could this be the Ukrainian nationalists using Russia to ‘ethnically cleanse’ Ukraine of Russian-speakers?
I don’t see how disemboweling a nation of it’s prime labour and fighting force serves the end of Ukrainian nationalists in reality, though I can see how they may fall under that delusion.
Russia expends manpower and material, and gets the blame, to do the Ukrainians dirty work for them.
Ukraine expends manpower and material in supporting the logistics around these armies. It’s not done for free.
Perhaps the stories of mass defections are true …
Brilliant! And if true, Putin can’t admit it, because it would demoralize the Russian soldiers.
In light of what I’ve just said it seems pretty block-headed.
Now, if Russians aren’t demoralised by fighting former countrymen (members of the USSR) then this won’t make much of a difference either.
I mean, when the Russians take a trench do you think they distinguish between Carpathian Ruthenians, Galicians, Tartars or ethnic Hungarian Ukrainians ???
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 10 2023 16:29 utc | 82
Posted by: The Accountant | Sep 10 2023 16:16 utc | 42
The Dolchstoss narrative not only confirms the endgame is truly upon us but the level of Western control over Ukraine.
Posted by: Milites | Sep 10 2023 16:30 utc | 83
Posted by: The Accountant | Sep 10 2023 16:16 utc | 42
The Dolchstoss narrative not only confirms the endgame is truly upon us but the level of Western control over Ukraine.
Posted by: Milites | Sep 10 2023 16:30 utc | 84
Posted by: Truthsayer | Sep 10 2023 13:07 utc | 1
The fact is that the Russian way is more effective, and the “shortage of land mines” in seems to be nothing more than unfounded speculation.
Posted by: Colin | Sep 10 2023 16:35 utc | 85
Posted by: Truthsayer | Sep 10 2023 13:07 utc | 1
The fact is that the Russian way is more effective, and the “shortage of land mines” in seems to be nothing more than unfounded speculation.
Posted by: Colin | Sep 10 2023 16:35 utc | 86
RE: “Methinks it will all work out for the Globalists in the end so I feel I’m just going to be neutral about all this moving forward.”
Posted by: safe | Sep 10 2023 15:07 utc | 29
It may help you to discard all the Klaus Schwab & Bill Gates
“Desires” for the Globe as they are not as powerful as projected, and this “type” of mindset generation is currently literally dying & passing away. They’re all practically in their 70s now and what the goal really was, was not “ Globalization” it was “Global Imperialism”… to hold ALL “patents” and maintain a “rentier” global economy.
The “chips trade war”… really isn’t about “chips” or even China’s “advancement”… it’s about “patents” and “licensing “ of those patents globally . If you hold the patents you can release the “licenses” for use, or revoke at will, but globally you will make trillions for doing nothing, which is how the US has actually “controlled” much of any rising peer. This is what the Imperial Globalist are really after. In all areas, the WEF , medical, science, space, raw material, food, agriculture, oil, gas, energy of any and all.
I’m guessing the West will wind up with the West in the end, but Globally…. No.
You have to remember, it wasn’t that long ago that the US/UK axis had a Super power holding them in check, they had to play semi nice, once the Soviet “threat” was vanquished… they thought they were on their way to Imperial Globalism.
They are now once again faced with a duo aligned “Superpower” holding them in check… albeit slowly, but their Imperial Globalism is toast.
There has always been a “form” of Globalism, only before the 21st Century, it was called “Mercantilism”, and the same as now, the Empire of the day, would send troops and invade some small neighbor, take over his ports and resources, set up ships and continue their Continental trade routes, or as Kings did, marry off to other Countries and keep the wealth between a few powers.
I’m really saying, that because of megalomaniacs, internet & “news”, they have citizens actually fearing some 20 people taking over the globe and imposing their will, and it won’t be ever happen because all prior and future Empires fall on their own weight of being an Empire and will long before any Global Imperial Power is realized. As you can see, it’s not difficult to frustrate their goals, it just takes courage.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Sep 10 2023 16:51 utc | 87
RE: “Methinks it will all work out for the Globalists in the end so I feel I’m just going to be neutral about all this moving forward.”
Posted by: safe | Sep 10 2023 15:07 utc | 29
It may help you to discard all the Klaus Schwab & Bill Gates
“Desires” for the Globe as they are not as powerful as projected, and this “type” of mindset generation is currently literally dying & passing away. They’re all practically in their 70s now and what the goal really was, was not “ Globalization” it was “Global Imperialism”… to hold ALL “patents” and maintain a “rentier” global economy.
The “chips trade war”… really isn’t about “chips” or even China’s “advancement”… it’s about “patents” and “licensing “ of those patents globally . If you hold the patents you can release the “licenses” for use, or revoke at will, but globally you will make trillions for doing nothing, which is how the US has actually “controlled” much of any rising peer. This is what the Imperial Globalist are really after. In all areas, the WEF , medical, science, space, raw material, food, agriculture, oil, gas, energy of any and all.
I’m guessing the West will wind up with the West in the end, but Globally…. No.
You have to remember, it wasn’t that long ago that the US/UK axis had a Super power holding them in check, they had to play semi nice, once the Soviet “threat” was vanquished… they thought they were on their way to Imperial Globalism.
They are now once again faced with a duo aligned “Superpower” holding them in check… albeit slowly, but their Imperial Globalism is toast.
There has always been a “form” of Globalism, only before the 21st Century, it was called “Mercantilism”, and the same as now, the Empire of the day, would send troops and invade some small neighbor, take over his ports and resources, set up ships and continue their Continental trade routes, or as Kings did, marry off to other Countries and keep the wealth between a few powers.
I’m really saying, that because of megalomaniacs, internet & “news”, they have citizens actually fearing some 20 people taking over the globe and imposing their will, and it won’t be ever happen because all prior and future Empires fall on their own weight of being an Empire and will long before any Global Imperial Power is realized. As you can see, it’s not difficult to frustrate their goals, it just takes courage.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Sep 10 2023 16:51 utc | 88
I think we haven’t discussed the possibility of some sort of rebellion by military elements in Ukraine. Not a march on Kiev but just a refusal to advance or accept orders. Russia might consider encouraging Odessa to break free into Singapore status.
Posted by: Eighthman | Sep 10 2023 16:52 utc | 89
I think we haven’t discussed the possibility of some sort of rebellion by military elements in Ukraine. Not a march on Kiev but just a refusal to advance or accept orders. Russia might consider encouraging Odessa to break free into Singapore status.
Posted by: Eighthman | Sep 10 2023 16:52 utc | 90
Re: Posted by: grunzt | Sep 10 2023 14:25 utc | 19
Once presented as a war ingredient, the practice is accepted by western countries. Their comment may be something like „we don’t tell Ukrainians how to fight their war“. So they are justifying the organized extermination of an ethnic group, by trivializing it as just another detail of war. Of course, USA and UK are the main perpetrators here, but, for instance, Germany’s role in looking the other way, factually allowing Ukraine to exterminate its Russian population, must be seen as another significant factor.
If this was at all true don’t you think Russia would be intent on finishing this war as soon as possible and defeating Ukraine rather than dragging out the war so that it will continue for years?
Yes – of course they would.
If you disagree it means you are stating Russia doesn’t care about ethnic Russians being conscripted in Ukraine! Pull the other one.
Posted by: Julian | Sep 10 2023 16:54 utc | 91
Re: Posted by: grunzt | Sep 10 2023 14:25 utc | 19
Once presented as a war ingredient, the practice is accepted by western countries. Their comment may be something like „we don’t tell Ukrainians how to fight their war“. So they are justifying the organized extermination of an ethnic group, by trivializing it as just another detail of war. Of course, USA and UK are the main perpetrators here, but, for instance, Germany’s role in looking the other way, factually allowing Ukraine to exterminate its Russian population, must be seen as another significant factor.
If this was at all true don’t you think Russia would be intent on finishing this war as soon as possible and defeating Ukraine rather than dragging out the war so that it will continue for years?
Yes – of course they would.
If you disagree it means you are stating Russia doesn’t care about ethnic Russians being conscripted in Ukraine! Pull the other one.
Posted by: Julian | Sep 10 2023 16:54 utc | 92
https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-irregular-attempt-to-make-deeper-minefields-created-headaches-report-2023-9?amp
Posted by: Truthsayer | Sep 10 2023 13:07 utc | 1
———————————————————-
Business Insider: Trash in, trash out. You shouldn’t read such trash; you might as well post an interview with Zelensky.
Posted by: Ed | Sep 10 2023 16:55 utc | 93
https://www.businessinsider.com/russias-irregular-attempt-to-make-deeper-minefields-created-headaches-report-2023-9?amp
Posted by: Truthsayer | Sep 10 2023 13:07 utc | 1
———————————————————-
Business Insider: Trash in, trash out. You shouldn’t read such trash; you might as well post an interview with Zelensky.
Posted by: Ed | Sep 10 2023 16:55 utc | 94
So the ‘governments’ of the western ‘rules’ based ‘order’ have made a sacrifice of the Ukrainian for what?
And as long as we’re on the subject…
What about the other 20,000,000 or more humans killed in defense of this power to rule?
Toward what authority do we consent?
Posted by: Robert Hope | Sep 10 2023 16:55 utc | 95
So the ‘governments’ of the western ‘rules’ based ‘order’ have made a sacrifice of the Ukrainian for what?
And as long as we’re on the subject…
What about the other 20,000,000 or more humans killed in defense of this power to rule?
Toward what authority do we consent?
Posted by: Robert Hope | Sep 10 2023 16:55 utc | 96
@ Julian | Sep 10 2023 16:54 utc | 48
So “Putin” should instead maximize the losses of ethnic Russians from inside Russia . . . right?
Or — let me guess — just surrender.
Pull the other one indeed.
Posted by: malenkov | Sep 10 2023 17:05 utc | 97
@ Julian | Sep 10 2023 16:54 utc | 48
So “Putin” should instead maximize the losses of ethnic Russians from inside Russia . . . right?
Or — let me guess — just surrender.
Pull the other one indeed.
Posted by: malenkov | Sep 10 2023 17:05 utc | 98
Posted by: JessDTruth | Sep 10 2023 16:15 utc | 41
Good post. My only disagreement: 6. China does not need the US. Indeed, doesn’t current developments re BRICS, etc indicate that many countries do not want, nor need, to be US allies?
As Napoleon said, don’t interrupt your enemy when he is making mistakes (or similar).
Posted by: horseguards | Sep 10 2023 17:08 utc | 99
Posted by: JessDTruth | Sep 10 2023 16:15 utc | 41
Good post. My only disagreement: 6. China does not need the US. Indeed, doesn’t current developments re BRICS, etc indicate that many countries do not want, nor need, to be US allies?
As Napoleon said, don’t interrupt your enemy when he is making mistakes (or similar).
Posted by: horseguards | Sep 10 2023 17:08 utc | 100