Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 8, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-212


bigger

"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings;
Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal Wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away."

Ozymandias. By Percy Bysshe Shelley.

Idea Kit Klarenberg.

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Comments

Incredibles attack against #Kiev hangers and airfield tonight. #Russia win again, #Ukraine clearly loose.
Destroyed:
26x 🇺🇦 Mig-21
14x 🇺🇦 Mig-29
6x 🇺🇦 BUK
10x 🇺🇦 S-300
3x 🇺🇸 HIMARS
2x 🇺🇸 Patriot System (all piece)
31x 🇺🇸 M1 Abrams
5x 🇺🇸 🇩🇰 F-16
18x 🇺🇸 🇱🇺 F-16
1x 🇺🇸 🇧🇪 F-16
1x 🇺🇸 F-22

Posted by: Snowflake | Sep 9 2023 7:25 utc | 501

Incredibles attack against #Kiev hangers and airfield tonight. #Russia win again, #Ukraine clearly loose.
Destroyed:
26x 🇺🇦 Mig-21
14x 🇺🇦 Mig-29
6x 🇺🇦 BUK
10x 🇺🇦 S-300
3x 🇺🇸 HIMARS
2x 🇺🇸 Patriot System (all piece)
31x 🇺🇸 M1 Abrams
5x 🇺🇸 🇩🇰 F-16
18x 🇺🇸 🇱🇺 F-16
1x 🇺🇸 🇧🇪 F-16
1x 🇺🇸 F-22

Posted by: Snowflake | Sep 9 2023 7:25 utc | 502

Ah, no. Stupid thinking, the both of you……….
……You forget, your keyboard is but a mirror to your ugly mind.
Posted by: SCCC | Sep 8 2023 22:51 utc | 195
Oh, It’s just you and not one of the old timers. Ok, I’ll bite.
*Cough*
“Oh my, what a clever little fellow you are. Now, run along so the adults can talk.
That’s a good boy.”
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Now, what was the conversation again? Ah yes, Police Stations……….
https://t.me/explosive_pulse/3072

Posted by: Suresh | Sep 9 2023 7:38 utc | 503

Ah, no. Stupid thinking, the both of you……….
……You forget, your keyboard is but a mirror to your ugly mind.
Posted by: SCCC | Sep 8 2023 22:51 utc | 195
Oh, It’s just you and not one of the old timers. Ok, I’ll bite.
*Cough*
“Oh my, what a clever little fellow you are. Now, run along so the adults can talk.
That’s a good boy.”
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
Now, what was the conversation again? Ah yes, Police Stations……….
https://t.me/explosive_pulse/3072

Posted by: Suresh | Sep 9 2023 7:38 utc | 504

The Verkhovna Rada published the findings of a temporary investigative commission to investigate possible abuses of humanitarian aid.
Over the course of the year, members of the commission studied compliance with the law when receiving, distributing, and transporting humanitarian and other aid, as well as the effective use of state property that could be used for the benefit of internally displaced persons.
The commission’s findings spanned 88 pages and were mostly disappointing. VSK came to the conclusion that the regulations of the Cabinet of Ministers, which regulate the procedure for the import, storage and distribution of humanitarian aid, contradict the Law of Ukraine “On Humanitarian Aid”, and in some cases actually cancel the provisions of this law.
The commission found that there is no single responsible body, no coordinating headquarters for humanitarian assistance with a clear list of responsibilities.
The commission also recorded numerous violations in the field of accounting for humanitarian aid in regional military administrations, both in terms of its receipt by military administrations and its transfer and distribution to end users, which led to the loss or damage of goods of humanitarian significance, abuse of import to Ukraine of vehicles as humanitarian aid, unreasonable expenses from state and local budgets for the acquisition of material assets that could be used for humanitarian purposes.
It turned out that in the conditions of significant volumes of humanitarian aid entering Ukraine, there was no proper control over it. Cases have been recorded when legal entities that were not included in the list of final recipients were among the final recipients of humanitarian assistance.
The Commission notes that there is virtually no reporting on the use of property in respect of which the forced alienation procedure has been applied, which can lead to the waste of such property and the unlawful enrichment of individuals through its sale.
The Commission provides an example of the performance of the National Police (as of May 2023) regarding the effectiveness of pre-trial investigations of criminal proceedings related to illegal activities with humanitarian aid, charitable donations and gratuitous assistance.
Thus, it turned out that in only 21% of criminal proceedings suspicion was reported (157 criminal proceedings), of which only in 36% of cases were indictments sent to court.
VSK also noted that the National Police did not provide information and characteristics of persons who committed such criminal offenses, for example, it is unknown how many cases were opened on the facts of abuse of officials of state authorities, local governments, state or municipal enterprises, institutions, and organizations.
“The above may indicate the ineffectiveness of the pre-trial investigation by the investigative authorities and the procedural guidance of the prosecutor’s office in criminal proceedings of this category, the registration of criminal proceedings mainly in relation to volunteers, public and charitable organizations,” the report says.
In August 2023, the Commission heard a report from law enforcement representatives. The Office of the Prosecutor General informed people’s deputies that as of the date of the meeting, the National Police was handling 424 criminal proceedings under a specialized article of the Criminal Code of Ukraine and more than 200 criminal offenses in this area, initiated under other qualifications (fraud, misappropriation, embezzlement of property, theft, bribery, etc.).
186 people were suspected. 86 indictments were sent to court. In total, 35 sentences were handed down.

https://t.me/MediaKiller2021/9409

The theft of humanitarian aid in Ukraine has become a trend that has made many officials rich. Even the temporary commission of inquiry was forced to acknowledge the massive nature by publishing a report.

https://t.me/rezident_ua/19573

Posted by: Down South | Sep 9 2023 7:45 utc | 505

The Verkhovna Rada published the findings of a temporary investigative commission to investigate possible abuses of humanitarian aid.
Over the course of the year, members of the commission studied compliance with the law when receiving, distributing, and transporting humanitarian and other aid, as well as the effective use of state property that could be used for the benefit of internally displaced persons.
The commission’s findings spanned 88 pages and were mostly disappointing. VSK came to the conclusion that the regulations of the Cabinet of Ministers, which regulate the procedure for the import, storage and distribution of humanitarian aid, contradict the Law of Ukraine “On Humanitarian Aid”, and in some cases actually cancel the provisions of this law.
The commission found that there is no single responsible body, no coordinating headquarters for humanitarian assistance with a clear list of responsibilities.
The commission also recorded numerous violations in the field of accounting for humanitarian aid in regional military administrations, both in terms of its receipt by military administrations and its transfer and distribution to end users, which led to the loss or damage of goods of humanitarian significance, abuse of import to Ukraine of vehicles as humanitarian aid, unreasonable expenses from state and local budgets for the acquisition of material assets that could be used for humanitarian purposes.
It turned out that in the conditions of significant volumes of humanitarian aid entering Ukraine, there was no proper control over it. Cases have been recorded when legal entities that were not included in the list of final recipients were among the final recipients of humanitarian assistance.
The Commission notes that there is virtually no reporting on the use of property in respect of which the forced alienation procedure has been applied, which can lead to the waste of such property and the unlawful enrichment of individuals through its sale.
The Commission provides an example of the performance of the National Police (as of May 2023) regarding the effectiveness of pre-trial investigations of criminal proceedings related to illegal activities with humanitarian aid, charitable donations and gratuitous assistance.
Thus, it turned out that in only 21% of criminal proceedings suspicion was reported (157 criminal proceedings), of which only in 36% of cases were indictments sent to court.
VSK also noted that the National Police did not provide information and characteristics of persons who committed such criminal offenses, for example, it is unknown how many cases were opened on the facts of abuse of officials of state authorities, local governments, state or municipal enterprises, institutions, and organizations.
“The above may indicate the ineffectiveness of the pre-trial investigation by the investigative authorities and the procedural guidance of the prosecutor’s office in criminal proceedings of this category, the registration of criminal proceedings mainly in relation to volunteers, public and charitable organizations,” the report says.
In August 2023, the Commission heard a report from law enforcement representatives. The Office of the Prosecutor General informed people’s deputies that as of the date of the meeting, the National Police was handling 424 criminal proceedings under a specialized article of the Criminal Code of Ukraine and more than 200 criminal offenses in this area, initiated under other qualifications (fraud, misappropriation, embezzlement of property, theft, bribery, etc.).
186 people were suspected. 86 indictments were sent to court. In total, 35 sentences were handed down.

https://t.me/MediaKiller2021/9409

The theft of humanitarian aid in Ukraine has become a trend that has made many officials rich. Even the temporary commission of inquiry was forced to acknowledge the massive nature by publishing a report.

https://t.me/rezident_ua/19573

Posted by: Down South | Sep 9 2023 7:45 utc | 506

🇷🇺The Pope is pro-Russian. This is now obvious, Zelensky’s representative
Recently, the Pope called on “the heirs of the great Mother Russia” to go forward, which caused violent hysteria in Ukraine.
Adviser to Zelensky’s Office M. Podolyak called the position of the Pope “pro-Russian” and said that this is a reset of the Vatican’s reputation.
“This is completely unconscious, of course, but nullification of the reputation of the Holy Seat. This is an absolute nullification of any mediation mission that the Vatican could carry out. There is no point in talking about a mediator called the Pope if he takes a pro-Russian position that is obvious to everyone,” – Podolyak said.

https://t.me/Slavyangrad/62410

Posted by: Down South | Sep 9 2023 7:47 utc | 507

🇷🇺The Pope is pro-Russian. This is now obvious, Zelensky’s representative
Recently, the Pope called on “the heirs of the great Mother Russia” to go forward, which caused violent hysteria in Ukraine.
Adviser to Zelensky’s Office M. Podolyak called the position of the Pope “pro-Russian” and said that this is a reset of the Vatican’s reputation.
“This is completely unconscious, of course, but nullification of the reputation of the Holy Seat. This is an absolute nullification of any mediation mission that the Vatican could carry out. There is no point in talking about a mediator called the Pope if he takes a pro-Russian position that is obvious to everyone,” – Podolyak said.

https://t.me/Slavyangrad/62410

Posted by: Down South | Sep 9 2023 7:47 utc | 508

I was reading up on F-16s, which led me to the 2006 Israeli-Hezbollah War. An interesting thing on the Wikipedia page is the PsyOps Israel ran:

During the war, the IAF dropped 17,000 leaflets over Lebanon in 47 missions, and sent more than 700,000 computerized voice messages. Many of them contained caricatures of Hassan Nasrallah and Hezbollah leading Lebanon to ruin and making civilians suffer, showing them as puppets of Iran and Syria, and calling on civilians to help remove Hezbollah.
Another leaflet addressing Hezbollah fighters told them that they were lied to by their leaders, that they were “sent like sheep to be butchered, lacking military training and without proper combat gear”, that they could not hope to face “highly trained soldiers that fight to protect their homeland, their people, and their home”, referring to them as “mercenaries” without the support of the Lebanese public, and urging them to run and save their lives.

Sounds familiar!
Seems like something Russia should be doing! Maybe they are, and we just don’t hear about it.

Posted by: kassandra | Sep 9 2023 7:51 utc | 509

I was reading up on F-16s, which led me to the 2006 Israeli-Hezbollah War. An interesting thing on the Wikipedia page is the PsyOps Israel ran:

During the war, the IAF dropped 17,000 leaflets over Lebanon in 47 missions, and sent more than 700,000 computerized voice messages. Many of them contained caricatures of Hassan Nasrallah and Hezbollah leading Lebanon to ruin and making civilians suffer, showing them as puppets of Iran and Syria, and calling on civilians to help remove Hezbollah.
Another leaflet addressing Hezbollah fighters told them that they were lied to by their leaders, that they were “sent like sheep to be butchered, lacking military training and without proper combat gear”, that they could not hope to face “highly trained soldiers that fight to protect their homeland, their people, and their home”, referring to them as “mercenaries” without the support of the Lebanese public, and urging them to run and save their lives.

Sounds familiar!
Seems like something Russia should be doing! Maybe they are, and we just don’t hear about it.

Posted by: kassandra | Sep 9 2023 7:51 utc | 510

https://archive.ph/DYbO7
The tide in the US is turning, realism to prevail?
Cracks Appear In US Deep State As Insiders Warn Negotiations With Russia The Only Way Out: “Everyone Loses”

Posted by: biochar | Sep 9 2023 8:33 utc | 511

https://archive.ph/DYbO7
The tide in the US is turning, realism to prevail?
Cracks Appear In US Deep State As Insiders Warn Negotiations With Russia The Only Way Out: “Everyone Loses”

Posted by: biochar | Sep 9 2023 8:33 utc | 512

Just how pathetic is the US+NATO war machine ?
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/dire-new-western-reports-call-to

Posted by: Powda | Sep 9 2023 8:46 utc | 513

Just how pathetic is the US+NATO war machine ?
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/dire-new-western-reports-call-to

Posted by: Powda | Sep 9 2023 8:46 utc | 514

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 9 2023 1:33 utc | 230
The Southern thrust at the start of the SMO exceeded the daily advance rates of Barbarossa, had the most competent and aggressive commanders leading some of the best equipped divisions. Bakhmut was a tar baby the Ukrainians were forced, by their rhetoric and need for Western, support to clasp tightly, whilst Russia used a mercenary force that they planned to defacto assimilate afterwards.
This is why I used to regularly listen to Macgregor, Berletic and Martyanov, not so much now as the endgame has been reached, because they focused on the big picture, not all the paint splodges that the painting consisted of. I think the West’s fatal flaw in running the war, was not competency, but an inability to see the conflict in anything other than a very narrow perspective. A result of the commander’s assigned to the mission having no real experience of large scale strategic operations, rather like a chess player viewing a game from board level, obsessed with taking pieces, ironic given their ISR dominance, or perhaps because of it. As I’ve said many times, the West is reaping the ‘benefits’ of having ideologues in charge who are obsessed in destroying the very institutions that allowed them to rise to power. Russia is the reverse, reinforcing the institutions, whilst dumping the paralysing ideological content, beyond lip service to the collective.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 8:51 utc | 515

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 9 2023 1:33 utc | 230
The Southern thrust at the start of the SMO exceeded the daily advance rates of Barbarossa, had the most competent and aggressive commanders leading some of the best equipped divisions. Bakhmut was a tar baby the Ukrainians were forced, by their rhetoric and need for Western, support to clasp tightly, whilst Russia used a mercenary force that they planned to defacto assimilate afterwards.
This is why I used to regularly listen to Macgregor, Berletic and Martyanov, not so much now as the endgame has been reached, because they focused on the big picture, not all the paint splodges that the painting consisted of. I think the West’s fatal flaw in running the war, was not competency, but an inability to see the conflict in anything other than a very narrow perspective. A result of the commander’s assigned to the mission having no real experience of large scale strategic operations, rather like a chess player viewing a game from board level, obsessed with taking pieces, ironic given their ISR dominance, or perhaps because of it. As I’ve said many times, the West is reaping the ‘benefits’ of having ideologues in charge who are obsessed in destroying the very institutions that allowed them to rise to power. Russia is the reverse, reinforcing the institutions, whilst dumping the paralysing ideological content, beyond lip service to the collective.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 8:51 utc | 516

Posted by: Constantine | Sep 8 2023 21:23 utc | 176
«Moreover, the “Ukrainian leaders” you refer to were not even originally Ukrainians and did not live within Russia. These were the Ukrainized Rusyn/Ruthenians who lived in Austria-Hungary.»
That seems a good point, but I think that the terminology is somewhat inaccurate there:
* The Rusyns whose area were part of the Austro-Ungarian Empire are a tiny minority not to be confused with the fascist nationalists of Bandera, Dontsov, Petliura, Stsiborskyi. Indeed nowadays they are an oppressed minority subject to forced “ukrainiazation” (actually ruthenianization) like the ungarian, turkic, malorussian, greek, italian, groups by the fascist nationalists.
* The fascist nationalists are mostly from further east than the Rusyn area, in the properly Ruthenian areas that were part of the Lithuanian-Polish-Ruthenian Empire (like western Belarus), and are not of russian culture and origin, they are yet another eastern slavic ethnicity.
* The ruthenian fascists started calling themselves “ukrainian” to indeed lay claim to the area around the Dnieper, which used to be called “Ukraine” as a geographical term, while the residents used to be called “cossacks” or “malorussians” (a subset of “black russians” together the “great russians” of Muscovy).
«
They were groomed and refashioned by the Germans and laid claim to all od Ukraine
* The “Ukraine” used to be the area around Dnipro. Then the soviets called “Ukrainian SSR” a much bigger area including western-southern Ruthenia (attached to it only in 1939), to lay claim to Ruthenia too; the ruthenians fascists then did the same to lay claim to the Ukraine and Novorossya.
Put another way I think that the Ukrainian SSR was made of five areas:
* Extreme west: Rusyn.
* West: Ruthenia.
* Central: Ukraine or “Malorussia”.
* Eastern (Donbas) and southern (Odessa): Novorossya.
* Extreme southern: south Bessarabia or “Gagauzia”.
I am not counting Crimea as part of the Ukrainian SSR as its annexation to the Ukrainian SSR was illegal and void under the USSR constitution and laws.
Bonus quote on how the nazi elites (and polish and now USA ones) have been using the expansionist, colonial/imperial attitudes of the ruthenian fascists in an anti-russian sense:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenia
«In what in 1938 the French and Spanish press identified as “troublemaking” by the National Socialist government of Germany, there were calls in the German press for the independence of a Greater Ukraine, which would include Ruthenia, parts of Hungary, the Polish Southeast including Lvov, the Crimea, and Ukraine, including Kyiv and Kharkiv.»

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 9 2023 8:51 utc | 517

Posted by: Constantine | Sep 8 2023 21:23 utc | 176
«Moreover, the “Ukrainian leaders” you refer to were not even originally Ukrainians and did not live within Russia. These were the Ukrainized Rusyn/Ruthenians who lived in Austria-Hungary.»
That seems a good point, but I think that the terminology is somewhat inaccurate there:
* The Rusyns whose area were part of the Austro-Ungarian Empire are a tiny minority not to be confused with the fascist nationalists of Bandera, Dontsov, Petliura, Stsiborskyi. Indeed nowadays they are an oppressed minority subject to forced “ukrainiazation” (actually ruthenianization) like the ungarian, turkic, malorussian, greek, italian, groups by the fascist nationalists.
* The fascist nationalists are mostly from further east than the Rusyn area, in the properly Ruthenian areas that were part of the Lithuanian-Polish-Ruthenian Empire (like western Belarus), and are not of russian culture and origin, they are yet another eastern slavic ethnicity.
* The ruthenian fascists started calling themselves “ukrainian” to indeed lay claim to the area around the Dnieper, which used to be called “Ukraine” as a geographical term, while the residents used to be called “cossacks” or “malorussians” (a subset of “black russians” together the “great russians” of Muscovy).
«
They were groomed and refashioned by the Germans and laid claim to all od Ukraine
* The “Ukraine” used to be the area around Dnipro. Then the soviets called “Ukrainian SSR” a much bigger area including western-southern Ruthenia (attached to it only in 1939), to lay claim to Ruthenia too; the ruthenians fascists then did the same to lay claim to the Ukraine and Novorossya.
Put another way I think that the Ukrainian SSR was made of five areas:
* Extreme west: Rusyn.
* West: Ruthenia.
* Central: Ukraine or “Malorussia”.
* Eastern (Donbas) and southern (Odessa): Novorossya.
* Extreme southern: south Bessarabia or “Gagauzia”.
I am not counting Crimea as part of the Ukrainian SSR as its annexation to the Ukrainian SSR was illegal and void under the USSR constitution and laws.
Bonus quote on how the nazi elites (and polish and now USA ones) have been using the expansionist, colonial/imperial attitudes of the ruthenian fascists in an anti-russian sense:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenia
«In what in 1938 the French and Spanish press identified as “troublemaking” by the National Socialist government of Germany, there were calls in the German press for the independence of a Greater Ukraine, which would include Ruthenia, parts of Hungary, the Polish Southeast including Lvov, the Crimea, and Ukraine, including Kyiv and Kharkiv.»

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 9 2023 8:51 utc | 518

Brenner was hugely attacked for raking up history that many want forgotten, this is his lengthy reply to critics of his book:
https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/pdf/10.3366/hlps.2015.0123
Posted by: Roger | Sep 8 2023 20:35 utc | 165
Interesting link. It also contains a reply to the reply. I notice however that his critic in this case doesn’t represent a Zionist view. He criticizes Brenner for whitewashing the role some Jews played in the holocaust and calls Vad Yashem a propaganda institution.

Posted by: RB | Sep 9 2023 9:00 utc | 519

Brenner was hugely attacked for raking up history that many want forgotten, this is his lengthy reply to critics of his book:
https://www.euppublishing.com/doi/pdf/10.3366/hlps.2015.0123
Posted by: Roger | Sep 8 2023 20:35 utc | 165
Interesting link. It also contains a reply to the reply. I notice however that his critic in this case doesn’t represent a Zionist view. He criticizes Brenner for whitewashing the role some Jews played in the holocaust and calls Vad Yashem a propaganda institution.

Posted by: RB | Sep 9 2023 9:00 utc | 520

Apparently a second Challenger II tank has been knocked out, this time with Kornet ATGM. The first one was supposedly knocked out with a Krasnopol guided shell.
Also, new article from Simplicus.
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/dire-new-western-reports-call-to

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 9:06 utc | 521

Apparently a second Challenger II tank has been knocked out, this time with Kornet ATGM. The first one was supposedly knocked out with a Krasnopol guided shell.
Also, new article from Simplicus.
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/dire-new-western-reports-call-to

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 9:06 utc | 522

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 8 2023 22:45 utc | 194
«Kyiv insists it will not surrender until it returns to its 1991 borders. And the failure to dislodge Russian forces»
That statement is a central point of ruthenian colonialist propaganda: that the Donbas and Crimea belong by “divine right” to the people of Ruthenia, and that the residents of the Donbas and Crimea are illegal squatters who have been squatting in those regions belonging to Ruthenia for hundreds of years only because they are backed by russian forces.
Actually the borders of Greater Ruthenia are only those of the areas where the residents have positively chosen to be part of it, and this does not include Novorossya and the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, and the unprovoked invasion started by ukrainian fascist Poroshenko against Novorossya and Crimea was fought by the Donbas forces between 2014 and 2022, not by the russian forces, that only joined the Donbas forces in the 2022 spring counter-attack against that war of aggression by the ukranian fascists.
«poses a particularly vexing problem. You will either have to admit defeat and Russian control of the annexed territories, or continue to fight stubbornly until Ukraine turns into a failed state.»
There is no “vexing problem” as the purpose of that to me seems to ensure that the ruthenian fascists will “continue to fight stubbornly” even *after* “Ukraine turns into a failed state” (pretty much already the case) and then even after the defeat of Ukraine, as an insurgency that will fight (from bases in Poland, Hungary, Romania) until regime-change in Moscow, that is in the best interests of the USA.
The story will be that it is the sacred duty of all ruthenians abroad to keep fighting the insurgency until Greatest President’s dream of colonizing and ethnically cleansing Novorossya and Crimea is realized, and any ruthenians left inside the 1991 borders that do not support the insurgency are traitors to liquidate.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 9 2023 9:14 utc | 523

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 8 2023 22:45 utc | 194
«Kyiv insists it will not surrender until it returns to its 1991 borders. And the failure to dislodge Russian forces»
That statement is a central point of ruthenian colonialist propaganda: that the Donbas and Crimea belong by “divine right” to the people of Ruthenia, and that the residents of the Donbas and Crimea are illegal squatters who have been squatting in those regions belonging to Ruthenia for hundreds of years only because they are backed by russian forces.
Actually the borders of Greater Ruthenia are only those of the areas where the residents have positively chosen to be part of it, and this does not include Novorossya and the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, and the unprovoked invasion started by ukrainian fascist Poroshenko against Novorossya and Crimea was fought by the Donbas forces between 2014 and 2022, not by the russian forces, that only joined the Donbas forces in the 2022 spring counter-attack against that war of aggression by the ukranian fascists.
«poses a particularly vexing problem. You will either have to admit defeat and Russian control of the annexed territories, or continue to fight stubbornly until Ukraine turns into a failed state.»
There is no “vexing problem” as the purpose of that to me seems to ensure that the ruthenian fascists will “continue to fight stubbornly” even *after* “Ukraine turns into a failed state” (pretty much already the case) and then even after the defeat of Ukraine, as an insurgency that will fight (from bases in Poland, Hungary, Romania) until regime-change in Moscow, that is in the best interests of the USA.
The story will be that it is the sacred duty of all ruthenians abroad to keep fighting the insurgency until Greatest President’s dream of colonizing and ethnically cleansing Novorossya and Crimea is realized, and any ruthenians left inside the 1991 borders that do not support the insurgency are traitors to liquidate.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 9 2023 9:14 utc | 524

Call me a cynic , the Musk is now a RF agent who turned off skynet when it never operated in that area, Maybe it has more to do with his potential lawsuit against the ADL, now thats a fight with the monolith

Posted by: hankster | Sep 9 2023 9:17 utc | 525

Call me a cynic , the Musk is now a RF agent who turned off skynet when it never operated in that area, Maybe it has more to do with his potential lawsuit against the ADL, now thats a fight with the monolith

Posted by: hankster | Sep 9 2023 9:17 utc | 526

@Powda | Sep 9 2023 8:46 utc | 262
I find it interesting that the muricans from simplex simplicius quote Marty, that is another murican.
“Should it be delivered, the ATACMS will be used to make a couple big splashes somewhere—most likely a civilian area unprotected by AD—in Donbass, which will be crudely packaged and sold, as ever, by mainstream press as a “devastating blow””
And they share the same lack of interest for any dead Russians, both soldiers and civilians. Let’s not forget his pure joy when that journalist was killed by an exploding gift and about 30 other wounded. Or when Prigo died. “yeah yeah, people will die. anyway, buy me some coffee, donate”. Marty also wrote on his comments section that Russia won’t do anything even if Donbass is nuked and that DU is safe, not an escalation.

Posted by: rk | Sep 9 2023 9:22 utc | 527

@Powda | Sep 9 2023 8:46 utc | 262
I find it interesting that the muricans from simplex simplicius quote Marty, that is another murican.
“Should it be delivered, the ATACMS will be used to make a couple big splashes somewhere—most likely a civilian area unprotected by AD—in Donbass, which will be crudely packaged and sold, as ever, by mainstream press as a “devastating blow””
And they share the same lack of interest for any dead Russians, both soldiers and civilians. Let’s not forget his pure joy when that journalist was killed by an exploding gift and about 30 other wounded. Or when Prigo died. “yeah yeah, people will die. anyway, buy me some coffee, donate”. Marty also wrote on his comments section that Russia won’t do anything even if Donbass is nuked and that DU is safe, not an escalation.

Posted by: rk | Sep 9 2023 9:22 utc | 528

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 8 2023 23:16 utc | 199
«Funnily (or not) enough, the most loudest war advocates of Ukraine side seem to be pseudo-patriats writing blog posts or tweets out of Canada or Poland. The first one who is waking up are actually affected normal people inside Ukraine.»
My guess is that there is a class aspect to that: probably many of those ruthenians expats are the descendants of the lower ruthenian nobility who in 1917 for example still remembered how their grandfathers were defeated by Catherine and deprived of their power after the Lithuanian-Polish-Ruthenian Empire was split between Muscovy (“moskals”, “kastaps”) and Austria-Hungary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski
«Zbigniew Brzezinski was born in Warsaw, Poland, on March 28, 1928[11] into an aristocratic Roman Catholic[12] family originally from Brzeżany, Tarnopol Voivodeship (then part of Poland, currently in Ukraine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brzezi%C5%84ski
«The Brzeziński surname was originally borne only by the szlachta, the Polish noble class
Like Talleyrand said of the Bourbons, many of the descendants of the polish-ruthenian “szlachta” or the ruthenian-polonized “schlacta”, “They had learned nothing and forgotten nothing”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_nobility
«Ruthenian nobility, however, retained a distinct identity within the body of the Polish-Lithuanian szlachta, leading to the Latin expression gente Ruthenus, natione Polonus or gente Rutheni, natione Poloni (translated as “of Polish nationality, but Ruthenian origin”, “of Ruthenia race and Polish nation”,[6] or in various similar veins), although the extent to which they retained and maintained this separate identity is still debated by scholars, and varied based on time and place […] According to Polish estimates from the 1930s, 300,000 members of the common nobles – szlachta zagrodowa – inhabited the subcarpathian region of the Second Polish Republic out of 800,000 in the whole country. 90% of them were Ukrainian-speaking and 80% were Ukrainian Greek Catholics. In other parts of the Ukraine with a significant szlachta population, such as the Bar or the Ovruch regions, the situation was similar despite russification and earlier polonization.»
In the latter quote “Ukrainian” means “Ruthenian”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Galicia%E2%80%93Volhynia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Louis%27s_kingdoms_and_his_vassal_territories.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Ruthenia#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Ruthenia#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian%E2%80%93Ruthenian_Commonwealth

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 9 2023 9:23 utc | 529

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 8 2023 23:16 utc | 199
«Funnily (or not) enough, the most loudest war advocates of Ukraine side seem to be pseudo-patriats writing blog posts or tweets out of Canada or Poland. The first one who is waking up are actually affected normal people inside Ukraine.»
My guess is that there is a class aspect to that: probably many of those ruthenians expats are the descendants of the lower ruthenian nobility who in 1917 for example still remembered how their grandfathers were defeated by Catherine and deprived of their power after the Lithuanian-Polish-Ruthenian Empire was split between Muscovy (“moskals”, “kastaps”) and Austria-Hungary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski
«Zbigniew Brzezinski was born in Warsaw, Poland, on March 28, 1928[11] into an aristocratic Roman Catholic[12] family originally from Brzeżany, Tarnopol Voivodeship (then part of Poland, currently in Ukraine)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brzezi%C5%84ski
«The Brzeziński surname was originally borne only by the szlachta, the Polish noble class
Like Talleyrand said of the Bourbons, many of the descendants of the polish-ruthenian “szlachta” or the ruthenian-polonized “schlacta”, “They had learned nothing and forgotten nothing”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_nobility
«Ruthenian nobility, however, retained a distinct identity within the body of the Polish-Lithuanian szlachta, leading to the Latin expression gente Ruthenus, natione Polonus or gente Rutheni, natione Poloni (translated as “of Polish nationality, but Ruthenian origin”, “of Ruthenia race and Polish nation”,[6] or in various similar veins), although the extent to which they retained and maintained this separate identity is still debated by scholars, and varied based on time and place […] According to Polish estimates from the 1930s, 300,000 members of the common nobles – szlachta zagrodowa – inhabited the subcarpathian region of the Second Polish Republic out of 800,000 in the whole country. 90% of them were Ukrainian-speaking and 80% were Ukrainian Greek Catholics. In other parts of the Ukraine with a significant szlachta population, such as the Bar or the Ovruch regions, the situation was similar despite russification and earlier polonization.»
In the latter quote “Ukrainian” means “Ruthenian”.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruthenian_language
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Galicia%E2%80%93Volhynia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Louis%27s_kingdoms_and_his_vassal_territories.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Ruthenia#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ruthenia#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Ruthenia#History
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian%E2%80%93Ruthenian_Commonwealth

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 9 2023 9:23 utc | 530

Not necessarily, the British will be there to document. What is Russia planning to do ? Fire on civilian ships if they refuse to be inspected ?
Posted by: Shocked | Sep 8 2023 22:25 utc | 191
Russia will do what the Americans would do if a civilian ship entered the waters they declared off limits due to a military action.

Posted by: RB | Sep 9 2023 9:27 utc | 531

Not necessarily, the British will be there to document. What is Russia planning to do ? Fire on civilian ships if they refuse to be inspected ?
Posted by: Shocked | Sep 8 2023 22:25 utc | 191
Russia will do what the Americans would do if a civilian ship entered the waters they declared off limits due to a military action.

Posted by: RB | Sep 9 2023 9:27 utc | 532

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.
One of the artifices of Satan is, to induce men to believe that he does not exist
One of the most striking proofs of the personal existence of Satan, which our times afford us, is found in the fact, that he has so influenced the minds of multitudes in reference to his existence and doings, as to make them believe that he does not exist; and that the hosts of Demons or Evil Spirits, over whom Satan presides as Prince, are only the phantacies of the brain, some halucination of mind. Could we have a stronger proof of the existence of a mind so mighty as to produce such results?
“My dear brethren, do not ever forget, when your hear the progress of lights praised, that the loveliest trick of the Devil is to persuade you that they don’t exist!”

Posted by: gordon | Sep 9 2023 9:31 utc | 533

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn’t exist.
One of the artifices of Satan is, to induce men to believe that he does not exist
One of the most striking proofs of the personal existence of Satan, which our times afford us, is found in the fact, that he has so influenced the minds of multitudes in reference to his existence and doings, as to make them believe that he does not exist; and that the hosts of Demons or Evil Spirits, over whom Satan presides as Prince, are only the phantacies of the brain, some halucination of mind. Could we have a stronger proof of the existence of a mind so mighty as to produce such results?
“My dear brethren, do not ever forget, when your hear the progress of lights praised, that the loveliest trick of the Devil is to persuade you that they don’t exist!”

Posted by: gordon | Sep 9 2023 9:31 utc | 534

Posted by: Powda | Sep 9 2023 8:46 utc | 262
Ironic that an article that focuses on Western dissembling contains a fair bit itself. I really hate narratives, they tend to be products of an ideological determinism that’s happy trampling the truth in its desire to reach an artificial goal, all the while exposing their true nature. They are the twirking drag queens of debate.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 9:43 utc | 535

Posted by: Powda | Sep 9 2023 8:46 utc | 262
Ironic that an article that focuses on Western dissembling contains a fair bit itself. I really hate narratives, they tend to be products of an ideological determinism that’s happy trampling the truth in its desire to reach an artificial goal, all the while exposing their true nature. They are the twirking drag queens of debate.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 9:43 utc | 536

Posted by: Roger | Sep 8 2023 22:21 utc | 190
«Many non-Jews are Zionists»
In the UK also Jeremy Corbyn is a committed and long-standing activist zionist:
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/153303/jeremy-corbyn-must-do-more-address-concerns-says-board-deputies-after-meeting
«Mr Corbyn and two advisers held talks with Board of Deputies president Jonathan Arkush and chief executive Gillian Merron this afternoon. Following the meeting Mr Arkush said: “We had a positive and constructive meeting and were pleased that Mr Corbyn gave a very solid commitment to the right of Israel to live within secure and recognised boundaries as part of a two state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. “Mr Corbyn affirmed his support for shechitah, brit milah and Jewish faith schools. He also resolved in strong terms to fight antisemitism from wherever it comes”. […]
“The Jewish community is a vibrant and much valued part of our diverse UK society, and I will continue to defend the right to religious freedom and practice, […] I have a long interest in campaigning for peace and justice in the Middle East, and reiterated my commitment to a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Israelis and Palestinians both have the right to a state, and to live in peace and security.”»
However he was still viciously attacked, I guess because of that “and Palestinians both have a right”.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 9 2023 9:53 utc | 537

Posted by: Roger | Sep 8 2023 22:21 utc | 190
«Many non-Jews are Zionists»
In the UK also Jeremy Corbyn is a committed and long-standing activist zionist:
http://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/153303/jeremy-corbyn-must-do-more-address-concerns-says-board-deputies-after-meeting
«Mr Corbyn and two advisers held talks with Board of Deputies president Jonathan Arkush and chief executive Gillian Merron this afternoon. Following the meeting Mr Arkush said: “We had a positive and constructive meeting and were pleased that Mr Corbyn gave a very solid commitment to the right of Israel to live within secure and recognised boundaries as part of a two state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. “Mr Corbyn affirmed his support for shechitah, brit milah and Jewish faith schools. He also resolved in strong terms to fight antisemitism from wherever it comes”. […]
“The Jewish community is a vibrant and much valued part of our diverse UK society, and I will continue to defend the right to religious freedom and practice, […] I have a long interest in campaigning for peace and justice in the Middle East, and reiterated my commitment to a two-state solution to the Israel-Palestine conflict. Israelis and Palestinians both have the right to a state, and to live in peace and security.”»
However he was still viciously attacked, I guess because of that “and Palestinians both have a right”.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 9 2023 9:53 utc | 538

Kit Klarenberg may well have been inspired by Steve Bell’s adaption of the poem, which was published as a leader cartoon in The Guardian, back in the days when it could still be considered a decent newspaper.

Posted by: Elwood | Sep 9 2023 9:57 utc | 539

Kit Klarenberg may well have been inspired by Steve Bell’s adaption of the poem, which was published as a leader cartoon in The Guardian, back in the days when it could still be considered a decent newspaper.

Posted by: Elwood | Sep 9 2023 9:57 utc | 540

Posted by: Shocked | Sep 8 2023 22:25 utc | 191
«What is Russia planning to do ? Fire on civilian ships if they refuse to be inspected ?»
That would be “terrorism”, very distinct from this example of “freedom fighting”: 🙂
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/7/7/uk-warship-seized-advanced-iranian-missiles-bound-for-yemen
«A British Royal Navy vessel seized a sophisticated shipment of Iranian missiles in the Gulf of Oman earlier this year, officials have claimed, presenting it as proof of Tehran’s support for Yemen’s Houthi rebels in the war-torn country. […]
The HMS Montrose’s helicopter had been scanning for illicit goods in the Gulf of Oman on January 28 and February 25 when it spotted small vessels speeding away from the Iranian coast with “suspicious cargo on deck.” A team of Royal Marines then halted and searched the boats, confiscating the weapons in international waters south of Iran.
A US Navy guided-missile destroyer supported the British warship’s February operation. Fifth Fleet Vice Admiral Brad Cooper said the seizure reflected the Navy’s “strong commitment to regional security and stability”.»

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 9 2023 9:58 utc | 541

Posted by: Shocked | Sep 8 2023 22:25 utc | 191
«What is Russia planning to do ? Fire on civilian ships if they refuse to be inspected ?»
That would be “terrorism”, very distinct from this example of “freedom fighting”: 🙂
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/7/7/uk-warship-seized-advanced-iranian-missiles-bound-for-yemen
«A British Royal Navy vessel seized a sophisticated shipment of Iranian missiles in the Gulf of Oman earlier this year, officials have claimed, presenting it as proof of Tehran’s support for Yemen’s Houthi rebels in the war-torn country. […]
The HMS Montrose’s helicopter had been scanning for illicit goods in the Gulf of Oman on January 28 and February 25 when it spotted small vessels speeding away from the Iranian coast with “suspicious cargo on deck.” A team of Royal Marines then halted and searched the boats, confiscating the weapons in international waters south of Iran.
A US Navy guided-missile destroyer supported the British warship’s February operation. Fifth Fleet Vice Admiral Brad Cooper said the seizure reflected the Navy’s “strong commitment to regional security and stability”.»

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 9 2023 9:58 utc | 542

Posted by: Suresh | Sep 9 2023 7:38 utc | 257
Via TG link.
“Earlier today, the Russian MoD launched a successful strike on the Krivoy Rog police department, where a meeting of Ukrainian security forces and NATO officials was held”.
######
All well and good for Russia to hit a specific location where security chiefs and NATO officials meet. No complaints from me. That does not contradict my point, more supports it. Russia has CLEARLY threatened to hit military and SBU command venues whilst refusing to hit civilian targets. Big difference to the local recruitment offices you and Oprisko were suggesting. A poor effort of misdirected strawmanning.
I used to think you inputs here were thoughtful and reasoned, Suresh. But either you’ve slipped, or have just decided to reveal your inner bigot.

Posted by: SCCC | Sep 9 2023 10:18 utc | 543

Posted by: Suresh | Sep 9 2023 7:38 utc | 257
Via TG link.
“Earlier today, the Russian MoD launched a successful strike on the Krivoy Rog police department, where a meeting of Ukrainian security forces and NATO officials was held”.
######
All well and good for Russia to hit a specific location where security chiefs and NATO officials meet. No complaints from me. That does not contradict my point, more supports it. Russia has CLEARLY threatened to hit military and SBU command venues whilst refusing to hit civilian targets. Big difference to the local recruitment offices you and Oprisko were suggesting. A poor effort of misdirected strawmanning.
I used to think you inputs here were thoughtful and reasoned, Suresh. But either you’ve slipped, or have just decided to reveal your inner bigot.

Posted by: SCCC | Sep 9 2023 10:18 utc | 544

Highlights: Military Chronicle conducted an analysis of how and where the expansion of the largest cemeteries in Ukraine is taking place. In just a year (from July 2022 to July 2023), Ukrainian armed formations lost at least 185 thousand people killed on the battlefield. The leader in the growth of the territory was the cemetery in Cherkasy – its area increased by 671 thousand square meters. If we take into account the planned construction of the facility in the Kiev region, the Ukrainian authorities will soon be able to bury about 1,5 million people.
“On August 19, the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine approved a project to create a National War Memorial Cemetery on the territory of the Fastiv district of the Kyiv region. The project involves the allocation of two large plots of 258 and 8 hectares for a new military cemetery By the summer of 2025, this cemetery, based on its area, should have a burial place for 600 to 800 thousand people. But this cemetery is not the only place where they are going to bury a large number of bodies, “the article notes.
According to the Military Chronicle, the leader in the growth of the territory was the cemetery in Cherkasy – its area increased by 671 thousand square meters, where it is possible to bury about 280 thousand people. Also, during the year, the cemetery in Kryvyi Rih was significantly expanded, where 150,373 square meters of additional space were prepared for the burial of about <>,<> bodies.
“Other cemeteries in Ukraine are also being intensively expanded: Molodezhnoye in Rivne (+25,3 square meters), a new cemetery in Khmelnytskyi (+3,71 square meters); Sokolniki in Lviv (+21 thousand square meters); Svishtovskoye cemetery in Kremenchuk (+63,43 square meters), Garazja cemetery in Lutsk (+27,13 square meters), Godylovskoye cemetery in Chernivtsi (+25,430 square meters), Matveyevskoye cemetery in Zaporizhzhia (+450,<> square meters), Krasnopillia cemetery in Dnepropetrovsk (+<>,<> square meters). The area of the Western Cemetery in Odessa (+<>,<> square meters) and the Yatsevo burial site in Chernihiv (+<>,<> square meters) have also been increased. Taking into account the increase in the territory in all cemeteries after expansion, it will be possible to additionally bury from <> to <> thousand bodies, “the analysis specifies.
https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2023-08-28-the-military-chronicle-analyzed-the-expansion-of-the-largest-cemeteries-in-ukraine.Bkze2Vx5Tn.html

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 10:32 utc | 545

Highlights: Military Chronicle conducted an analysis of how and where the expansion of the largest cemeteries in Ukraine is taking place. In just a year (from July 2022 to July 2023), Ukrainian armed formations lost at least 185 thousand people killed on the battlefield. The leader in the growth of the territory was the cemetery in Cherkasy – its area increased by 671 thousand square meters. If we take into account the planned construction of the facility in the Kiev region, the Ukrainian authorities will soon be able to bury about 1,5 million people.
“On August 19, the Cabinet of Ministers of Ukraine approved a project to create a National War Memorial Cemetery on the territory of the Fastiv district of the Kyiv region. The project involves the allocation of two large plots of 258 and 8 hectares for a new military cemetery By the summer of 2025, this cemetery, based on its area, should have a burial place for 600 to 800 thousand people. But this cemetery is not the only place where they are going to bury a large number of bodies, “the article notes.
According to the Military Chronicle, the leader in the growth of the territory was the cemetery in Cherkasy – its area increased by 671 thousand square meters, where it is possible to bury about 280 thousand people. Also, during the year, the cemetery in Kryvyi Rih was significantly expanded, where 150,373 square meters of additional space were prepared for the burial of about <>,<> bodies.
“Other cemeteries in Ukraine are also being intensively expanded: Molodezhnoye in Rivne (+25,3 square meters), a new cemetery in Khmelnytskyi (+3,71 square meters); Sokolniki in Lviv (+21 thousand square meters); Svishtovskoye cemetery in Kremenchuk (+63,43 square meters), Garazja cemetery in Lutsk (+27,13 square meters), Godylovskoye cemetery in Chernivtsi (+25,430 square meters), Matveyevskoye cemetery in Zaporizhzhia (+450,<> square meters), Krasnopillia cemetery in Dnepropetrovsk (+<>,<> square meters). The area of the Western Cemetery in Odessa (+<>,<> square meters) and the Yatsevo burial site in Chernihiv (+<>,<> square meters) have also been increased. Taking into account the increase in the territory in all cemeteries after expansion, it will be possible to additionally bury from <> to <> thousand bodies, “the analysis specifies.
https://www.tellerreport.com/news/2023-08-28-the-military-chronicle-analyzed-the-expansion-of-the-largest-cemeteries-in-ukraine.Bkze2Vx5Tn.html

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 10:32 utc | 546

ABC News develops the ATACMS story.

US likely to send long-range ATACMS missiles to Ukraine for the first time: Officials
“They are coming,” one U.S. official told ABC News.
The Biden administration is likely to send Ukraine long-range Army Tactical Missile Systems, or ATACMS, to help in its fight to repel the Russian invasion of its territory, according to U.S. officials.
“They are coming,” said one official who had access to security assistance plans. The official noted that, as always, such plans are subject to change until officially announced.
A second official said the missiles are “on the table” and likely to be included in an upcoming security assistance package, adding that a final decision has not been made. It could be months before Ukraine receives the missiles, according to the official.
With a range of up to 190 miles, depending on the version, deploying ATACMS could allow Ukraine to reach targets nearly four times further away than with the currently-provided rockets for its U.S.-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems and M270 multiple-launch rocket systems.
[continues ==> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-send-long-range-atacms-missiles-ukraine-time/story?id=103031722 ]

Posted by: too scents | Sep 9 2023 10:43 utc | 547

ABC News develops the ATACMS story.

US likely to send long-range ATACMS missiles to Ukraine for the first time: Officials
“They are coming,” one U.S. official told ABC News.
The Biden administration is likely to send Ukraine long-range Army Tactical Missile Systems, or ATACMS, to help in its fight to repel the Russian invasion of its territory, according to U.S. officials.
“They are coming,” said one official who had access to security assistance plans. The official noted that, as always, such plans are subject to change until officially announced.
A second official said the missiles are “on the table” and likely to be included in an upcoming security assistance package, adding that a final decision has not been made. It could be months before Ukraine receives the missiles, according to the official.
With a range of up to 190 miles, depending on the version, deploying ATACMS could allow Ukraine to reach targets nearly four times further away than with the currently-provided rockets for its U.S.-made High Mobility Artillery Rocket Systems and M270 multiple-launch rocket systems.
[continues ==> https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/us-send-long-range-atacms-missiles-ukraine-time/story?id=103031722 ]

Posted by: too scents | Sep 9 2023 10:43 utc | 548

Posted by: BGeorge | Sep 8 2023 21:48 utc | 182
(On Inkcan)

Please, someone buy this guy an express economy class one-way ticket to Kiev! and stick him front line together with the foreign legion merc’s!
So we can all enjoy our lives…

Nah. Even useless things serve a purpose. The next time some imbecile shows up claiming the forums are an ‘echo chamber’ point him to Inkan’s posts …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 9 2023 10:47 utc | 549

Posted by: BGeorge | Sep 8 2023 21:48 utc | 182
(On Inkcan)

Please, someone buy this guy an express economy class one-way ticket to Kiev! and stick him front line together with the foreign legion merc’s!
So we can all enjoy our lives…

Nah. Even useless things serve a purpose. The next time some imbecile shows up claiming the forums are an ‘echo chamber’ point him to Inkan’s posts …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 9 2023 10:47 utc | 550

278 too cents
didnt take long, earlier today it was a pentagon accounting error where they found more missiles in inventory than they had realized. oops . already on the battlefield if they are now talking about sending them. wunderwaffles #467

Posted by: hankster | Sep 9 2023 10:53 utc | 551

278 too cents
didnt take long, earlier today it was a pentagon accounting error where they found more missiles in inventory than they had realized. oops . already on the battlefield if they are now talking about sending them. wunderwaffles #467

Posted by: hankster | Sep 9 2023 10:53 utc | 552

Akhmat commander exposes Ukrainian fake video, in which they claimed “83rd airborne brigade” was left hang to dry in the open because supposedly the Akhmat unit covering their north flank was sent to vote on “Donbass republic” or something.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/WMoAkogwOnnU/
There were reports months ago that AFU has obtained/purchased over 1000 RU army uniforms, which they use to make fakes like that. And that one is clearly a very poorly made one. The guy on the left is starting to smirk and look down because he can’t hold his laugh.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 10:56 utc | 553

Akhmat commander exposes Ukrainian fake video, in which they claimed “83rd airborne brigade” was left hang to dry in the open because supposedly the Akhmat unit covering their north flank was sent to vote on “Donbass republic” or something.
https://www.bitchute.com/video/WMoAkogwOnnU/
There were reports months ago that AFU has obtained/purchased over 1000 RU army uniforms, which they use to make fakes like that. And that one is clearly a very poorly made one. The guy on the left is starting to smirk and look down because he can’t hold his laugh.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 10:56 utc | 554

281 and wear the shoulder chevron on the chest. lol

Posted by: hankster | Sep 9 2023 11:21 utc | 555

281 and wear the shoulder chevron on the chest. lol

Posted by: hankster | Sep 9 2023 11:21 utc | 556

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 8 2023 23:58 utc | 211
For Russia to declare Ukraine always having been part of it -and not just part of the USSR-would be great, but where is the legal logic in such still being the law of the land? Laws have repeals and deaths.
Surely, the break up of Russia by Yeltsin and Gorbachev , formally repealed or now overrides any law from 1975? If Putin truly believed in that law still being extant he would have mentioned it already since he came to power.
Now I would love for him to declare that the law was just in abeyance till now, but I can’t see him doing that. Now Erdogan/Americans are opportunistic hyenas and have no such problem.
If you really believe such a law still exists , can you please tell us why you believe it is still valid.

Posted by: Wondrous | Sep 9 2023 11:24 utc | 557

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 8 2023 23:58 utc | 211
For Russia to declare Ukraine always having been part of it -and not just part of the USSR-would be great, but where is the legal logic in such still being the law of the land? Laws have repeals and deaths.
Surely, the break up of Russia by Yeltsin and Gorbachev , formally repealed or now overrides any law from 1975? If Putin truly believed in that law still being extant he would have mentioned it already since he came to power.
Now I would love for him to declare that the law was just in abeyance till now, but I can’t see him doing that. Now Erdogan/Americans are opportunistic hyenas and have no such problem.
If you really believe such a law still exists , can you please tell us why you believe it is still valid.

Posted by: Wondrous | Sep 9 2023 11:24 utc | 558

281 and wear the shoulder chevron on the chest. lol
Posted by: hankster | Sep 9 2023 11:21 utc | 282

I think at this point it is safe to assume that Ukrops themselves no longer take their military leadership seriously.

Posted by: Nobody | Sep 9 2023 11:37 utc | 559

281 and wear the shoulder chevron on the chest. lol
Posted by: hankster | Sep 9 2023 11:21 utc | 282

I think at this point it is safe to assume that Ukrops themselves no longer take their military leadership seriously.

Posted by: Nobody | Sep 9 2023 11:37 utc | 560

Simplicus article:

They go on to describe how training in NATO countries is in fact inadequate because it’s done under conditions that are not realistic to the actual battlefield.
Collective training outside Ukraine is hampered by the fact that because of the safety culture in NATO, Ukrainian troops cannot train as they fight. Moreover, many NATO tactics either require a level of training that is not feasible within the timeframe available, or are not validated in the modern threat environment.
Read that again: NATO tactics “are not validated in the modern threat environment.” That’s a monster of an admission. Interestingly, the chief “military expert” behind this report, Dr. Jack Watling—Senior Research Fellow for Land Warfare at the Royal United Services Institute—had previously written an article for The Guardian in July where he said the following:

US “military experts” try to fit a cube into a triangle and then throw tantrums when it doesn’t work. And Ukraine abandoned all Nato doctrines and went back to Soviet ones.
More stuff on the “survivability” of crews in western vehicles (there’s one gruesome example of why it isn’t so), and Belgium’s F-16 are so worn out which is the actual reason they aren’t being given to AFU.
Also stuff about the assumed M-777 artillery range superiority compared to Russian systems. The fact is that Russia has several types of main 152mm towed howitzer systems which are comparable or outrange M-777. The question just as always, is positioning of those systems to where the M-777 systems are deployed.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 11:38 utc | 561

Simplicus article:

They go on to describe how training in NATO countries is in fact inadequate because it’s done under conditions that are not realistic to the actual battlefield.
Collective training outside Ukraine is hampered by the fact that because of the safety culture in NATO, Ukrainian troops cannot train as they fight. Moreover, many NATO tactics either require a level of training that is not feasible within the timeframe available, or are not validated in the modern threat environment.
Read that again: NATO tactics “are not validated in the modern threat environment.” That’s a monster of an admission. Interestingly, the chief “military expert” behind this report, Dr. Jack Watling—Senior Research Fellow for Land Warfare at the Royal United Services Institute—had previously written an article for The Guardian in July where he said the following:

US “military experts” try to fit a cube into a triangle and then throw tantrums when it doesn’t work. And Ukraine abandoned all Nato doctrines and went back to Soviet ones.
More stuff on the “survivability” of crews in western vehicles (there’s one gruesome example of why it isn’t so), and Belgium’s F-16 are so worn out which is the actual reason they aren’t being given to AFU.
Also stuff about the assumed M-777 artillery range superiority compared to Russian systems. The fact is that Russia has several types of main 152mm towed howitzer systems which are comparable or outrange M-777. The question just as always, is positioning of those systems to where the M-777 systems are deployed.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 11:38 utc | 562

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 10:56 utc | 281
Turn the sound off and watch, it reminds me of extras in a bad made for TV movie, complete with dodgy uniforms and helmets two sizes too small. The closest those guys have come to combat is probably their computer monitors, too soft around the edges, too normal looking.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 11:41 utc | 563

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 10:56 utc | 281
Turn the sound off and watch, it reminds me of extras in a bad made for TV movie, complete with dodgy uniforms and helmets two sizes too small. The closest those guys have come to combat is probably their computer monitors, too soft around the edges, too normal looking.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 11:41 utc | 564

Posted by: kassandra | Sep 9 2023 7:51 utc | 260
Re Israeli psyops on Hizbullah in 2006. You shouldn’t bother believing Israeli propaganda. That Wiki article was written by Israel. It entirely misrepresents the reality of that war. It was the Israelis who were in a panic in that war; queueing up outside foreign embassies to renew their second passports, ready to flee. The psyop had absolutely no effect in Hizbullah, whose fighters are volunteers fighting for their people. Israel has never since dared to commit its land army to a real fight, they were so shocked by the result of the 2006 war. Now they only use the airforce for bombarding the Arabs.

Posted by: laguerre | Sep 9 2023 11:42 utc | 565

Posted by: kassandra | Sep 9 2023 7:51 utc | 260
Re Israeli psyops on Hizbullah in 2006. You shouldn’t bother believing Israeli propaganda. That Wiki article was written by Israel. It entirely misrepresents the reality of that war. It was the Israelis who were in a panic in that war; queueing up outside foreign embassies to renew their second passports, ready to flee. The psyop had absolutely no effect in Hizbullah, whose fighters are volunteers fighting for their people. Israel has never since dared to commit its land army to a real fight, they were so shocked by the result of the 2006 war. Now they only use the airforce for bombarding the Arabs.

Posted by: laguerre | Sep 9 2023 11:42 utc | 566

Posted by: too scents | Sep 9 2023 10:43 utc | 278
“They are coming,” one U.S. official told ABC News.
Perhaps channeling their inner Goebbels a bit too much?

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 11:55 utc | 567

Posted by: too scents | Sep 9 2023 10:43 utc | 278
“They are coming,” one U.S. official told ABC News.
Perhaps channeling their inner Goebbels a bit too much?

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 11:55 utc | 568

@ Milites | Sep 9 2023 11:55 utc | 288

My two opinions on deliveries of ATACMS.
1) Similar to the delivery of cluster munitions it indicates the exhaustion of 227mm rocket inventories for the HIMARS platform.
2) More cynically, the delivery of ATACMS is the next shiny object to motivate Ukraine’s suicide.

Posted by: too scents | Sep 9 2023 12:09 utc | 569

@ Milites | Sep 9 2023 11:55 utc | 288

My two opinions on deliveries of ATACMS.
1) Similar to the delivery of cluster munitions it indicates the exhaustion of 227mm rocket inventories for the HIMARS platform.
2) More cynically, the delivery of ATACMS is the next shiny object to motivate Ukraine’s suicide.

Posted by: too scents | Sep 9 2023 12:09 utc | 570

According to our data, a Briton was killed in Ukraine due to an internal conflict. Everyone understands perfectly well who is doing what, but things will slow down.
Conflicts broke out many times between foreign mercenaries and Ukrainian Armed Forces soldiers. They were always hushed up without trying to solve the problems.
Back on August 1, we insided that the outflow of foreign mercenaries from the Armed Forces of Ukraine has intensified and many are leaving disappointed, which threatens the destruction of the “Ukrainian myth” about the struggle for freedom and democracy.

https://t.me/legitimniy/16217

Posted by: Down South | Sep 9 2023 12:26 utc | 571

According to our data, a Briton was killed in Ukraine due to an internal conflict. Everyone understands perfectly well who is doing what, but things will slow down.
Conflicts broke out many times between foreign mercenaries and Ukrainian Armed Forces soldiers. They were always hushed up without trying to solve the problems.
Back on August 1, we insided that the outflow of foreign mercenaries from the Armed Forces of Ukraine has intensified and many are leaving disappointed, which threatens the destruction of the “Ukrainian myth” about the struggle for freedom and democracy.

https://t.me/legitimniy/16217

Posted by: Down South | Sep 9 2023 12:26 utc | 572

Our source in the OP said that Zelensky at headquarters demanded that Zaluzhny intensify the counteroffensive in the Zaporozhye direction, which stalled after the capture of Rabotino.
Bankova wants to create a favorable information background before the President’s trip to the United States in order to be able to receive new military and financial assistance for 2024.

https://t.me/rezident_ua/19576

Posted by: Down South | Sep 9 2023 12:28 utc | 573

Our source in the OP said that Zelensky at headquarters demanded that Zaluzhny intensify the counteroffensive in the Zaporozhye direction, which stalled after the capture of Rabotino.
Bankova wants to create a favorable information background before the President’s trip to the United States in order to be able to receive new military and financial assistance for 2024.

https://t.me/rezident_ua/19576

Posted by: Down South | Sep 9 2023 12:28 utc | 574

Our source in the OP said that the US Secretary of State discussed with Ermak corruption in the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense in the procurement of weapons and ammunition.
Almost 500 billion hryvnia were spent for these purposes, and a check of the reports of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine showed inflated prices by 6-7 times, at which some of the products were not supplied to the Ukrainian Armed Forces at all.
Blinken warned that in the future the US will reduce financial assistance for these purposes, and support will be provided in the form of direct arms deliveries.

https://t.me/rezident_ua/19579

Posted by: Down South | Sep 9 2023 12:30 utc | 575

Our source in the OP said that the US Secretary of State discussed with Ermak corruption in the Ukrainian Ministry of Defense in the procurement of weapons and ammunition.
Almost 500 billion hryvnia were spent for these purposes, and a check of the reports of the Ministry of Defense of Ukraine showed inflated prices by 6-7 times, at which some of the products were not supplied to the Ukrainian Armed Forces at all.
Blinken warned that in the future the US will reduce financial assistance for these purposes, and support will be provided in the form of direct arms deliveries.

https://t.me/rezident_ua/19579

Posted by: Down South | Sep 9 2023 12:30 utc | 576

RU MOD revealed in their latest report that AFU has deployed 360 artillery pieces in Zaporozhye front (assume this means the front running Kamyanske to Staramayorsk, approximately 120km), of which 160 are western 155mm. So the majority are still old Soviet ones, probably built by the thousands and large portion of them left to Ukraine.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 12:34 utc | 577

RU MOD revealed in their latest report that AFU has deployed 360 artillery pieces in Zaporozhye front (assume this means the front running Kamyanske to Staramayorsk, approximately 120km), of which 160 are western 155mm. So the majority are still old Soviet ones, probably built by the thousands and large portion of them left to Ukraine.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 9 2023 12:34 utc | 578

@SCCC | Sep 8 2023 22:51 utc | 195

“one of Russia’s unspoken tactics is to allow the gradual breeding of general resentment in the civilian population over time against Kiev”

Ukrainians are idiots, so it makes no sense to give a hoot about the gradual breeding of general resentment in the idiot population over time. They are idiots, who cares what they think or are capable of thinking, now or over time, much better and more efficient to just put the idiots out of their misery. Then some other idiot can write a poem about them – “Ode to the idiots who died for the Jew Zelensky”.
The only Russian tactic in this current conflict is to preserve Russian GDP and spare as many Russian lives as possible while still wiping out all the NAZI’s, NATO irregulars and idiots who support the Jew Zelensky in Ukraine. The innocents who die unfortunately fall outside of the sparing as many Russian lives as possible criteria, most with the brains and means have already fled to Russia.

Posted by: gT | Sep 9 2023 12:34 utc | 579

@SCCC | Sep 8 2023 22:51 utc | 195

“one of Russia’s unspoken tactics is to allow the gradual breeding of general resentment in the civilian population over time against Kiev”

Ukrainians are idiots, so it makes no sense to give a hoot about the gradual breeding of general resentment in the idiot population over time. They are idiots, who cares what they think or are capable of thinking, now or over time, much better and more efficient to just put the idiots out of their misery. Then some other idiot can write a poem about them – “Ode to the idiots who died for the Jew Zelensky”.
The only Russian tactic in this current conflict is to preserve Russian GDP and spare as many Russian lives as possible while still wiping out all the NAZI’s, NATO irregulars and idiots who support the Jew Zelensky in Ukraine. The innocents who die unfortunately fall outside of the sparing as many Russian lives as possible criteria, most with the brains and means have already fled to Russia.

Posted by: gT | Sep 9 2023 12:34 utc | 580

unimperator@277….wonder if Oprah is buying up the land around the Ukrainian cemeteries?
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Sep 9 2023 12:40 utc | 581

unimperator@277….wonder if Oprah is buying up the land around the Ukrainian cemeteries?
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Sep 9 2023 12:40 utc | 582

https://images.app.goo.gl/vnEfL6wfgM7jRqJD7
Ukraine cemetery, uncensored.

Posted by: CitizenSmith | Sep 9 2023 12:43 utc | 583

https://images.app.goo.gl/vnEfL6wfgM7jRqJD7
Ukraine cemetery, uncensored.

Posted by: CitizenSmith | Sep 9 2023 12:43 utc | 584

Just read this from Simplicius – highly recommended
Dire New Western Reports Call to Ditch NATO Tactics
Plus a roundup of other grist from the Western propaganda mill
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/dire-new-western-reports-call-to
If this were a boxing match the referee would have stopped contest many rounds ago or a sane coach would have thrown in the towel to stop needless slaughter of his/he outclassed fighter

Posted by: Don Firineach | Sep 9 2023 13:26 utc | 585

Just read this from Simplicius – highly recommended
Dire New Western Reports Call to Ditch NATO Tactics
Plus a roundup of other grist from the Western propaganda mill
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/dire-new-western-reports-call-to
If this were a boxing match the referee would have stopped contest many rounds ago or a sane coach would have thrown in the towel to stop needless slaughter of his/he outclassed fighter

Posted by: Don Firineach | Sep 9 2023 13:26 utc | 586

dh | Sep 9 2023 3:05 utc | 245
That sounds familiar! There are many more casualties in war than the medicos see and many wounds are passed from generation to generation as unhappiness breeds unhappiness.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 9 2023 13:56 utc | 587

dh | Sep 9 2023 3:05 utc | 245
That sounds familiar! There are many more casualties in war than the medicos see and many wounds are passed from generation to generation as unhappiness breeds unhappiness.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 9 2023 13:56 utc | 588

@kassandra 260
You do know who won the 2006 zionist-Hezbollah conflict?

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 9 2023 13:57 utc | 589

@kassandra 260
You do know who won the 2006 zionist-Hezbollah conflict?

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 9 2023 13:57 utc | 590

Posted by: too scents | Sep 9 2023 12:09 utc | 289
Yup, the ATACMS (crappy acronym, nearly as bad as the HAWK) is a poisoned chalice they hope Ukraine will knock back. I wouldn’t be surprised if a high ranking mole gives the Russians the details, to stop the needless escalation of the war, as they more than likely did in the recent logistical and C3 strikes.
The ATACMS has a far larger RCS (radar cross section) than the Himars projectiles that are regularly shot down and will do little to affect the outcome of the war. Neocons are trying to delay the inevitable so they can empty the safe, make off with the jewels, after cleaning up the crime scene. I think the clever ones are preparing to go into hiding, surrounded by their riches, biding their time, watching the stupid ones fall victim to Darwinist theories.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 14:00 utc | 591

Posted by: too scents | Sep 9 2023 12:09 utc | 289
Yup, the ATACMS (crappy acronym, nearly as bad as the HAWK) is a poisoned chalice they hope Ukraine will knock back. I wouldn’t be surprised if a high ranking mole gives the Russians the details, to stop the needless escalation of the war, as they more than likely did in the recent logistical and C3 strikes.
The ATACMS has a far larger RCS (radar cross section) than the Himars projectiles that are regularly shot down and will do little to affect the outcome of the war. Neocons are trying to delay the inevitable so they can empty the safe, make off with the jewels, after cleaning up the crime scene. I think the clever ones are preparing to go into hiding, surrounded by their riches, biding their time, watching the stupid ones fall victim to Darwinist theories.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 14:00 utc | 592

Posted by: Ed4 | Sep 9 2023 13:04 utc | 297
Try and focus on the big picture, not the slight imperfections in its varnish coating, in one corner.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 14:04 utc | 593

Posted by: Ed4 | Sep 9 2023 13:04 utc | 297
Try and focus on the big picture, not the slight imperfections in its varnish coating, in one corner.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 9 2023 14:04 utc | 594

The worst possible outcome for the Bidet regime would be a final Afghanistan style Ukranazistani collapse in approximately a year from now, too close to the November 2024 selection to be memory holed. With Bidet having completely painted himself into a corner and made this conflict his baby, he can’t at that stage disown the defeat. That’s why if Amerikastan does not cut Ukranazistan off by next spring, Bidet will either have to dramatically up the ante to keep Elensky afloat to November, or else do something else big enough to be an attention distracter. We will know which it is going to be by March next year, assuming of course the conflict is still going on then.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 9 2023 14:09 utc | 595

The worst possible outcome for the Bidet regime would be a final Afghanistan style Ukranazistani collapse in approximately a year from now, too close to the November 2024 selection to be memory holed. With Bidet having completely painted himself into a corner and made this conflict his baby, he can’t at that stage disown the defeat. That’s why if Amerikastan does not cut Ukranazistan off by next spring, Bidet will either have to dramatically up the ante to keep Elensky afloat to November, or else do something else big enough to be an attention distracter. We will know which it is going to be by March next year, assuming of course the conflict is still going on then.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 9 2023 14:09 utc | 596

Posted by: Ass Bongle | Sep 8 2023 19:34 utc | 143
Your new nick is so … YOU!

LOL not only have Russia once again been attacked by drones, like 6 months straight now LOL

Making not a wit of difference.
The last time NATO poured so much money into achieving so little they got beaten by a bunch of goat herders.

Not only that, Russia just lost one of their allies:
Armenia to sign ICC convention to block Putin visiting the nation ever

Nobody gives a shit about Armenia.
It’s a useless albatross, hang it.

As usual Russia have no idea what to do!

Go ask Saakashvilli what happened the last time a clown followed that line of thought.
Russia always has an idea what to do, and it ends with Pashinyan chewing his tie on t.v
Next time Azerbaijan comes charging in the Americans are going to be nowhere – just like they were nowhere for Georgia.
If I was Putin I’d let the Azeris finish the job this time …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 9 2023 14:12 utc | 597

Posted by: Ass Bongle | Sep 8 2023 19:34 utc | 143
Your new nick is so … YOU!

LOL not only have Russia once again been attacked by drones, like 6 months straight now LOL

Making not a wit of difference.
The last time NATO poured so much money into achieving so little they got beaten by a bunch of goat herders.

Not only that, Russia just lost one of their allies:
Armenia to sign ICC convention to block Putin visiting the nation ever

Nobody gives a shit about Armenia.
It’s a useless albatross, hang it.

As usual Russia have no idea what to do!

Go ask Saakashvilli what happened the last time a clown followed that line of thought.
Russia always has an idea what to do, and it ends with Pashinyan chewing his tie on t.v
Next time Azerbaijan comes charging in the Americans are going to be nowhere – just like they were nowhere for Georgia.
If I was Putin I’d let the Azeris finish the job this time …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 9 2023 14:12 utc | 598

@Arch Bungle 306
Ilham Aliyev is a good deal less of an unpredictable turncoat than Pashinyan anyway and has good relations with Putin.
I don’t understand what Pashinyan is expecting to get from Amerikastan. If he imagines that Warshington will abandon Azerbaijan’s natural gas for Armenia’s…um…absolutely nothing, he has another think coming.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 9 2023 14:19 utc | 599

@Arch Bungle 306
Ilham Aliyev is a good deal less of an unpredictable turncoat than Pashinyan anyway and has good relations with Putin.
I don’t understand what Pashinyan is expecting to get from Amerikastan. If he imagines that Warshington will abandon Azerbaijan’s natural gas for Armenia’s…um…absolutely nothing, he has another think coming.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Sep 9 2023 14:19 utc | 600