Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 14, 2023
Russia Is Winning The Industrial Warfare Race

Last year I mocked the media for claiming that 'Russia is running out of' whatever.

> Back in March I had warned that Lies Do Not Win Wars. Here is another practical example.

After allegedly having 'run out of missiles' and, more importantly, patience, the leadership of the Russian Federation decided to de-electrify Ukrainian cities with a 'barrage of missile strikes'. <

Western military commentators have finally started to accept the obvious. Russia is winning and doing so by a large margin.

A similar turn can be seen in dearth of new 'Russia is running out of' stories which get now replaced by acknowledgements that Russia's weapon industries are out-producing the West:

Russia Overcomes Sanctions to Expand Missile Production, Officials SayNY Times
Moscow’s missile production now exceeds prewar levels, officials say, leaving Ukraine especially vulnerable this coming winter.

As a result of the sanctions, American officials estimate that Russia was forced to dramatically slow its production of missiles and other weaponry at the start of the war in February 2022 for at least six months. But by the end of 2022, Moscow’s military industrial manufacturing began to pick up speed again, American officials who spoke on condition of anonymity to disclose the sensitive assessment now concede.

Before the war, one senior Western defense official said, Russia could make 100 tanks a year; now they are producing 200.

Western officials also believe Russia is on track to manufacture two million artillery shells a year — double the amount Western intelligence services had initially estimated Russia could manufacture before the war.

As a result of the push, Russia is now producing more ammunition than the United States and Europe. Overall, Kusti Salm, a senior Estonian defense ministry official, estimated that Russia’s current ammunition production is seven times greater than that of the West.

Russia’s production costs are also far lower than the West’s, in part because Moscow is sacrificing safety and quality in its effort to build weapons more cheaply, Mr. Salm said. For instance, it costs a Western country $5,000 to $6,000 to make a 155-millimeter artillery round, whereas it costs Russia about $600 to produce a comparable 152-millimeter artillery shell, he said.

I believe that the numbers of current weapon production in Russia, which the New York Times cites, are too low. Consider that back in February the former Russian president Dmitry Medvedev spoke of an 'exponential increase' in weapon output:

Medvedev said Moscow had increased military production "by tens of times" at some factories and was closely studying weapons fired into Russian-held areas from the Ukrainian side in an effort to gain an advantage.

I would also argue that sanctions were never really able to hinder Russia's arms industry. No military uses the latest and greatest chips when it comes to making weapons. Putting sanctioning on those is thus pretty useless. Some old Intel 80386 compatible CPU is, correctly programmed, sufficient to manage a modern artillery system. For little money one can get thousands of these in any Asian electronic market.

There are a few exceptions that need special stuff. For some time Russia was behind in the production of night vision equipment. It imported some from France which blocked further transfers. But that issues seems to have been solved. For basic materials and energy Russia has all it needs. It also has well qualified staff to develop and build new weapons.

Five years ago the Russian President Vladimir Putin revealed a number of new weapon systems which were superior to western ones. He also mentioned that same of these were based on "new physical principles" which had been discovered by Russian scientists. At the recent Eastern Economic Forum he repeated that claim:

If one looks into the security sphere, new physical principles weapons will ensure the security of any country in the near historic perspective. We understand this very well and are working on it, Putin said.

(I don't find those sentences in the plenum transcript but trust Sputnik to have it right.)

There is some guessing what Putin might have meant. I thought about it for quite a while but have to admit that I have no clue what he has in mind.

A warning that Russia will outproduce the West was given back in June 2022 when Alex Vershinin of RUSI issued a note about The Return of Industrial Warfare:

The winner in a prolonged war between two near-peer powers is still based on which side has the strongest industrial base. A country must either have the manufacturing capacity to build massive quantities of ammunition or have other manufacturing industries that can be rapidly converted to ammunition production. Unfortunately, the West no longer seems to have either.

It has become to expensive for the West to regain that capability.

That Russia was running out of stuff was always wishful thinking, not fact based analysis. On that point it took the media more than a year to catch up with reality. On other aspects of the the war, casualty numbers come to mind, the media are still miles behind.

Comments

Giyane | Sep 15 2023 9:53 utc | 251
Go join the Taliban.
Go preach in a Madrassa.

Posted by: SCCC | Sep 15 2023 10:03 utc | 501

Giyane | Sep 15 2023 9:53 utc | 251
Go join the Taliban.
Go preach in a Madrassa.

Posted by: SCCC | Sep 15 2023 10:03 utc | 502

bubbles 208
Constantine 201
Thanks for your replies. Religion is a business, and extremely protective of the authority it confers on its leaders. That authority is abused when it says that Muslims shagging white girls and taking vast mortgages is OK when Muslims benefit from it.
These are personal gains but societal catastrophes.
When people complain about Russia doing a SloMo on MoA, they are making the same tribalist mistake that the colonialists make, that what benefits our side outweighs the societal catastrophe of shock and awe carpet bombing etc.
What helps society , the socialism that the Thatcherites so detest, helps every member of society, even if some people lose their life. Society can recover from loss of life , but Fitna/ societal breakdown, is worse than fighting or death . That’s a fundamental principle of Islam. USUKIS destroyed Ukrainian society with Neonazism, and Russia’s job , sadly , is to reconstruct it.

Posted by: Giyane | Sep 15 2023 10:12 utc | 503

bubbles 208
Constantine 201
Thanks for your replies. Religion is a business, and extremely protective of the authority it confers on its leaders. That authority is abused when it says that Muslims shagging white girls and taking vast mortgages is OK when Muslims benefit from it.
These are personal gains but societal catastrophes.
When people complain about Russia doing a SloMo on MoA, they are making the same tribalist mistake that the colonialists make, that what benefits our side outweighs the societal catastrophe of shock and awe carpet bombing etc.
What helps society , the socialism that the Thatcherites so detest, helps every member of society, even if some people lose their life. Society can recover from loss of life , but Fitna/ societal breakdown, is worse than fighting or death . That’s a fundamental principle of Islam. USUKIS destroyed Ukrainian society with Neonazism, and Russia’s job , sadly , is to reconstruct it.

Posted by: Giyane | Sep 15 2023 10:12 utc | 504

The Ukrainian Armed Forces allegedly took Andreevka again
Yuri Podolyaka:
▪️ Andreevka is a gray zone, located west of the railway line. Our line of defense runs along the railway track: the enemy, going on the attack, enters Andreevka, “takes” it, according to Malyar, then gets the full blow and retreats. As the same Malyar said yesterday, the situation is not so clear.
▪️ Today the Armed Forces of Ukraine allegedly took Andreevka again . Perhaps even photos will appear to cover up the shame. I know that yesterday they suffered heavy losses in the Andreevka area and nothing – geographically. And yesterday we had a powerful counterattack in Kleshcheevka, and our troops took part of the positions that were abandoned the day before. The counter-battle here continues.
▪️To understand the situation regarding the control of a settlement, it is enough to wait until the evening or the next morning. If the enemy or we gain a foothold at this point during the day and are not knocked out, it means that we have gained a foothold, or the enemy has gained a foothold. And within one attack, this can all happen several times. Therefore , I would not rush to conclusions until at least tomorrow.
Evacuation in the Kherson region.
▪️Kiev understands that part of the population will support us. And they can leak data about their military. Again, yesterday there was a powerful artillery cannonade, our artillery worked very closely, the enemy suggested that today there might be an attack by our soldiers crossing the Dnieper. But this was not the case. Hence such statements were made. But in any case, they need to remove the population so that those who support us do not give up their positions.
That is, they are afraid that in the near future we may begin an operation to cross the Dnieper and fight to the right bank of the Dnieper?
▪️Exactly true.

https://t.me/geromanat/9932

Posted by: Down South | Sep 15 2023 10:12 utc | 505

The Ukrainian Armed Forces allegedly took Andreevka again
Yuri Podolyaka:
▪️ Andreevka is a gray zone, located west of the railway line. Our line of defense runs along the railway track: the enemy, going on the attack, enters Andreevka, “takes” it, according to Malyar, then gets the full blow and retreats. As the same Malyar said yesterday, the situation is not so clear.
▪️ Today the Armed Forces of Ukraine allegedly took Andreevka again . Perhaps even photos will appear to cover up the shame. I know that yesterday they suffered heavy losses in the Andreevka area and nothing – geographically. And yesterday we had a powerful counterattack in Kleshcheevka, and our troops took part of the positions that were abandoned the day before. The counter-battle here continues.
▪️To understand the situation regarding the control of a settlement, it is enough to wait until the evening or the next morning. If the enemy or we gain a foothold at this point during the day and are not knocked out, it means that we have gained a foothold, or the enemy has gained a foothold. And within one attack, this can all happen several times. Therefore , I would not rush to conclusions until at least tomorrow.
Evacuation in the Kherson region.
▪️Kiev understands that part of the population will support us. And they can leak data about their military. Again, yesterday there was a powerful artillery cannonade, our artillery worked very closely, the enemy suggested that today there might be an attack by our soldiers crossing the Dnieper. But this was not the case. Hence such statements were made. But in any case, they need to remove the population so that those who support us do not give up their positions.
That is, they are afraid that in the near future we may begin an operation to cross the Dnieper and fight to the right bank of the Dnieper?
▪️Exactly true.

https://t.me/geromanat/9932

Posted by: Down South | Sep 15 2023 10:12 utc | 506

Russia must in any way interrupt the supply of Western weapons to Ukraine.
Telegram channel “Two Majors”: NATO countries are developing ways to deliver military cargo to the eastern flank.
In September 2023, Romania announced plans to build a European standard railway gauge (1435mm) on the Pascani-Iasi-Ugeni and Galati-Giurgiulesti sections. In the future, the routes will be extended to Chisinau and the Odessa region, which will make it possible to freely send military trains to Ukraine in the future.
Earlier, in July 2023, the European Commission presented a plan for the integration of Ukrainian railways into European ones, which involves the construction of about 3.3 thousand km of European standard gauge on the territory of Ukraine, which will be included in four European railway corridors.
By the end of 2023, reconstruction of the Krakow/Katowice (Poland) – Lviv (Ukraine) section may begin.
Also, the Romanian Ministry of Infrastructure plans to build and modernize 9 bridges on the border with Moldova across the Prut River. At the moment, construction has begun on the Iasi-Ungheni bridge, which is funded by the EU (16.5 million euros) within the framework of the Military Mobility project.
This initiative involves the development of transport infrastructure in the interests of the unimpeded movement of European military cargo and units across the EU and other countries.
In the current conditions, the EU, acting as an interested party in the delivery of agricultural products from Ukraine, is covering up the process of bringing NATO infrastructure closer to Russia, which, in the context of worsening relations, is expected to be used by the Alliance for military purposes.

https://t.me/geromanat/9929

Posted by: Down South | Sep 15 2023 10:14 utc | 507

Russia must in any way interrupt the supply of Western weapons to Ukraine.
Telegram channel “Two Majors”: NATO countries are developing ways to deliver military cargo to the eastern flank.
In September 2023, Romania announced plans to build a European standard railway gauge (1435mm) on the Pascani-Iasi-Ugeni and Galati-Giurgiulesti sections. In the future, the routes will be extended to Chisinau and the Odessa region, which will make it possible to freely send military trains to Ukraine in the future.
Earlier, in July 2023, the European Commission presented a plan for the integration of Ukrainian railways into European ones, which involves the construction of about 3.3 thousand km of European standard gauge on the territory of Ukraine, which will be included in four European railway corridors.
By the end of 2023, reconstruction of the Krakow/Katowice (Poland) – Lviv (Ukraine) section may begin.
Also, the Romanian Ministry of Infrastructure plans to build and modernize 9 bridges on the border with Moldova across the Prut River. At the moment, construction has begun on the Iasi-Ungheni bridge, which is funded by the EU (16.5 million euros) within the framework of the Military Mobility project.
This initiative involves the development of transport infrastructure in the interests of the unimpeded movement of European military cargo and units across the EU and other countries.
In the current conditions, the EU, acting as an interested party in the delivery of agricultural products from Ukraine, is covering up the process of bringing NATO infrastructure closer to Russia, which, in the context of worsening relations, is expected to be used by the Alliance for military purposes.

https://t.me/geromanat/9929

Posted by: Down South | Sep 15 2023 10:14 utc | 508

SCCC 254
If I knew how to spell chiwawa I’d call you it.

Posted by: Giyane | Sep 15 2023 10:15 utc | 509

SCCC 254
If I knew how to spell chiwawa I’d call you it.

Posted by: Giyane | Sep 15 2023 10:15 utc | 510

Ukraine announced a mass evacuation of the population along the entire bank of the Dnieper.

https://t.me/geromanat/9928

Posted by: Down South | Sep 15 2023 10:15 utc | 511

Ukraine announced a mass evacuation of the population along the entire bank of the Dnieper.

https://t.me/geromanat/9928

Posted by: Down South | Sep 15 2023 10:15 utc | 512

” … I could be mistaken but someone here , sometime ago , said that a NATO 155mm can pack up to double -4x the walloping power of a Russian 152mm. Apparently those 3 mm are critical to explosive content. The poster seemed clever , informed and unbiased to me …”
—————————————————————-
Wunderwaffen like the M777 Howitzer – manufactured in USA and UK – have standardised on the 155mm shell, which can be manufactured in a number of versions.
The actual fire-power capability between the 152 and 155mm shell is very little.
It more depends on what you pack it with rather than its diameter.

Posted by: Engineer-John | Sep 15 2023 10:18 utc | 513

” … I could be mistaken but someone here , sometime ago , said that a NATO 155mm can pack up to double -4x the walloping power of a Russian 152mm. Apparently those 3 mm are critical to explosive content. The poster seemed clever , informed and unbiased to me …”
—————————————————————-
Wunderwaffen like the M777 Howitzer – manufactured in USA and UK – have standardised on the 155mm shell, which can be manufactured in a number of versions.
The actual fire-power capability between the 152 and 155mm shell is very little.
It more depends on what you pack it with rather than its diameter.

Posted by: Engineer-John | Sep 15 2023 10:18 utc | 514

244
Romanian territory has… oil !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrochemical_industry_in_Romania

Posted by: Minaa | Sep 15 2023 10:27 utc | 515

244
Romanian territory has… oil !
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrochemical_industry_in_Romania

Posted by: Minaa | Sep 15 2023 10:27 utc | 516

Giyane | Sep 15 2023 10:12 utc | 255
Giyane | Sep 15 2023 10:15 utc | 258
تشيهواهوا
Try a dictionary or spell checker.
Go join the Taliban.
Go preach in a Madrassa.

Posted by: SCCC | Sep 15 2023 10:34 utc | 517

Giyane | Sep 15 2023 10:12 utc | 255
Giyane | Sep 15 2023 10:15 utc | 258
تشيهواهوا
Try a dictionary or spell checker.
Go join the Taliban.
Go preach in a Madrassa.

Posted by: SCCC | Sep 15 2023 10:34 utc | 518

It’s not difficult to work out the additional explosive capability of a shell based on its diameter. (I’m talking about the explosive end).
The area of the flat end of a cylinder, a circle by another name, is pi r squared, r being the radius.
The volume of a cylinder is the length L pi r squared. If both shells are proportionate, for example if the shell length is twice the diameter, then the two volumes will be as follows.
Russian 152 diameter radius .076 m pi r sq .036 L .304 so total volume for packing explosive is .0110 sq. metres
NATO 155 .077 m pi r sq .037 L .310 so total .0117
A ratio of the last 2 figures reveals that a Russian shell can pack 94% of the explosives of a NATO shell.
Not really a scarey difference. Assuming the explosives used are similar, any real battle force difference lies with number of guns, availability of shells, firing rate and accurracy.

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Sep 15 2023 10:42 utc | 519

It’s not difficult to work out the additional explosive capability of a shell based on its diameter. (I’m talking about the explosive end).
The area of the flat end of a cylinder, a circle by another name, is pi r squared, r being the radius.
The volume of a cylinder is the length L pi r squared. If both shells are proportionate, for example if the shell length is twice the diameter, then the two volumes will be as follows.
Russian 152 diameter radius .076 m pi r sq .036 L .304 so total volume for packing explosive is .0110 sq. metres
NATO 155 .077 m pi r sq .037 L .310 so total .0117
A ratio of the last 2 figures reveals that a Russian shell can pack 94% of the explosives of a NATO shell.
Not really a scarey difference. Assuming the explosives used are similar, any real battle force difference lies with number of guns, availability of shells, firing rate and accurracy.

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Sep 15 2023 10:42 utc | 520

NB regarding my above post. Obviously both of the shells have an aerodynamic front (typically ogive), but since these will be a very similar shape, the packing ratio doesn’t change.

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Sep 15 2023 10:45 utc | 521

NB regarding my above post. Obviously both of the shells have an aerodynamic front (typically ogive), but since these will be a very similar shape, the packing ratio doesn’t change.

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Sep 15 2023 10:45 utc | 522

This is why they have to evacuate the front lines. The Russians have gone crowd pleaser.
https://tass.com/politics/1675223
It is noted that the strike was executed with the blast-fragmentation type of shells, which effectively enable the elimination of large-area targets and manpower, as well as the adversary’s light fortifications

Posted by: OhhCanada | Sep 15 2023 10:45 utc | 523

This is why they have to evacuate the front lines. The Russians have gone crowd pleaser.
https://tass.com/politics/1675223
It is noted that the strike was executed with the blast-fragmentation type of shells, which effectively enable the elimination of large-area targets and manpower, as well as the adversary’s light fortifications

Posted by: OhhCanada | Sep 15 2023 10:45 utc | 524

I’ve just realised that some readers may be the sort who bailed out of maths a.s.a.p.,
so here is a friendly English language version of my calculations.
When it comes to the miniscule difference between the Russian and NATO shells,
size doesn’t matter;
it’s what you do with it that counts 🙂

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Sep 15 2023 10:52 utc | 525

I’ve just realised that some readers may be the sort who bailed out of maths a.s.a.p.,
so here is a friendly English language version of my calculations.
When it comes to the miniscule difference between the Russian and NATO shells,
size doesn’t matter;
it’s what you do with it that counts 🙂

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Sep 15 2023 10:52 utc | 526

And Putin is letting everyone know why all the people have to run
The cluster munitions issue, he believes, “reflects perfectly what is happening in the world as a whole“
“What I mean is this: there is one country that thinks it is exceptional – the United States,” Putin explained. “Even what it considers to be a crime, it takes the liberty of doing itself. In fact, the US is using cluster munitions in this case, with the Ukrainians’ hands,” he pointed out.
https://tass.com/politics/1675355

Posted by: OohCanada | Sep 15 2023 10:54 utc | 527

And Putin is letting everyone know why all the people have to run
The cluster munitions issue, he believes, “reflects perfectly what is happening in the world as a whole“
“What I mean is this: there is one country that thinks it is exceptional – the United States,” Putin explained. “Even what it considers to be a crime, it takes the liberty of doing itself. In fact, the US is using cluster munitions in this case, with the Ukrainians’ hands,” he pointed out.
https://tass.com/politics/1675355

Posted by: OohCanada | Sep 15 2023 10:54 utc | 528

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 15 2023 2:32 utc | 198

Russia’s production costs are also far lower than the West’s,
in part because Moscow is sacrificing safety and quality in its effort to build weapons
more cheaply, Mr. Salm said. For instance, it costs a Western country $5,000 to $6,000
to make a 155-millimeter artillery round, whereas it costs Russia about $600 to produce
a comparable 152-millimeter artillery shell, he said.
It puzzles me that the talking head would compare a 155 mm round to a “comparable” 152 mm round.
Why not just compare the cost of a Western 155 mm round to a Russian 155 mm
one like a normal person would?

PLUS
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 15 2023 3:22 utc | 203
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 15 2023 3:30 utc | 204
it gets worse and worse !!!
after the 19 mounths of smo there should NONE confusion about what weapons are used by NATO and Russia
———-> Comparition: NATO 155mm against Russia 152mm
Acco goes one better by confusing artillery with tanks !!!
– artillery systems with smoothbore guns : Ha…
– at least the caliber and type for the challenger is right: 120mm with rifled barrel
are you really so dull ?

Posted by: ghiwen | Sep 15 2023 11:02 utc | 529

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 15 2023 2:32 utc | 198

Russia’s production costs are also far lower than the West’s,
in part because Moscow is sacrificing safety and quality in its effort to build weapons
more cheaply, Mr. Salm said. For instance, it costs a Western country $5,000 to $6,000
to make a 155-millimeter artillery round, whereas it costs Russia about $600 to produce
a comparable 152-millimeter artillery shell, he said.
It puzzles me that the talking head would compare a 155 mm round to a “comparable” 152 mm round.
Why not just compare the cost of a Western 155 mm round to a Russian 155 mm
one like a normal person would?

PLUS
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 15 2023 3:22 utc | 203
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 15 2023 3:30 utc | 204
it gets worse and worse !!!
after the 19 mounths of smo there should NONE confusion about what weapons are used by NATO and Russia
———-> Comparition: NATO 155mm against Russia 152mm
Acco goes one better by confusing artillery with tanks !!!
– artillery systems with smoothbore guns : Ha…
– at least the caliber and type for the challenger is right: 120mm with rifled barrel
are you really so dull ?

Posted by: ghiwen | Sep 15 2023 11:02 utc | 530

When russia does, it is of course a sign of strength. Not sign of impending collapse, like when Ukraine does it.
http://publication.pravo.gov.ru/document/0001202309130009?index=1
Cope away 🙂

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 11:11 utc | 531

When russia does, it is of course a sign of strength. Not sign of impending collapse, like when Ukraine does it.
http://publication.pravo.gov.ru/document/0001202309130009?index=1
Cope away 🙂

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 11:11 utc | 532

Told you Kim’s visit was for the media only, now it’s official:
“Peskov: No agreements were signed with the DPRK during Kim Jong-un’s visit, including on military-technical cooperation”

Posted by: rk | Sep 15 2023 11:21 utc | 533

Told you Kim’s visit was for the media only, now it’s official:
“Peskov: No agreements were signed with the DPRK during Kim Jong-un’s visit, including on military-technical cooperation”

Posted by: rk | Sep 15 2023 11:21 utc | 534

Posted by: Phoenix | Sep 14 2023 20:33 utc | 111

It is usual for leaders to project confidence.
Here’s a little clip of Shoigu shrugging when asked “Will we win?”
https://t.me/the_Right_People/23321
What effect does that have on his troops and his public?

und andere:
– Posted by: scanalyse | Sep 14 2023 21:00 utc | 117
– Posted by: unimperator | Sep 14 2023 21:27 utc | 122
– Posted by: arby | Sep 14 2023 22:43 utc | 138
– Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 14 2023 23:52 utc | 161
Come on guys — a 4 second video-snippet !!! in a highly propaganda infested environment
has anybody of you tried to find the original video or additional infos?
what was his answer to the question ?
you can check it on:
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-russias-defense-minister-admit-russia-wont-win-ukraine-1827028

Posted by: ghiwen | Sep 15 2023 11:24 utc | 535

Posted by: Phoenix | Sep 14 2023 20:33 utc | 111

It is usual for leaders to project confidence.
Here’s a little clip of Shoigu shrugging when asked “Will we win?”
https://t.me/the_Right_People/23321
What effect does that have on his troops and his public?

und andere:
– Posted by: scanalyse | Sep 14 2023 21:00 utc | 117
– Posted by: unimperator | Sep 14 2023 21:27 utc | 122
– Posted by: arby | Sep 14 2023 22:43 utc | 138
– Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 14 2023 23:52 utc | 161
Come on guys — a 4 second video-snippet !!! in a highly propaganda infested environment
has anybody of you tried to find the original video or additional infos?
what was his answer to the question ?
you can check it on:
https://www.newsweek.com/fact-check-did-russias-defense-minister-admit-russia-wont-win-ukraine-1827028

Posted by: ghiwen | Sep 15 2023 11:24 utc | 536

the recurring question is: why is Russia unable to secure the cities of the Dombas and liberate the Odessa region by securing the Black Sea and with it the Crimea, the impression one gets from this, given the overwhelming military superiority, it’s that there isn’t the will to use strong methods and one prefers to take slaps daily while turning the other cheek.

Posted by: A.cagliostro | Sep 15 2023 11:38 utc | 537

the recurring question is: why is Russia unable to secure the cities of the Dombas and liberate the Odessa region by securing the Black Sea and with it the Crimea, the impression one gets from this, given the overwhelming military superiority, it’s that there isn’t the will to use strong methods and one prefers to take slaps daily while turning the other cheek.

Posted by: A.cagliostro | Sep 15 2023 11:38 utc | 538

German press, march 2023, 7 months ago:
„Ein Leopard könnte es mit zehn oder elf sowjetischen T-64 aufnehmen“
“One Leopard could take on ten or eleven Soviet T-64s”

Posted by: Passerby | Sep 15 2023 11:42 utc | 539

German press, march 2023, 7 months ago:
„Ein Leopard könnte es mit zehn oder elf sowjetischen T-64 aufnehmen“
“One Leopard could take on ten or eleven Soviet T-64s”

Posted by: Passerby | Sep 15 2023 11:42 utc | 540

Posted by: ghiwen | Sep 15 2023 11:24 utc | 271
Neocon think tanks have long formulated the narrative, according to which the only way for neocons to win in Ukraine is to “convince Putin he has lost”.
What does “convincing Putin he has lost” mean, exactly? It means creating and proliferating baseless, non-provable and bogus claims left, right and center. Like the NAFO trolls on this board. The western corporate media has been doing exactly since for the last 18 months.
Of course, they pretty much derive all their reporting on Ukraine directly from the likes of Podolyak, Budanov, Zaluzhny, Zelensky and Anna Maylar, people who any sane person wouldn’t buy a washing machine.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 15 2023 11:46 utc | 541

Posted by: ghiwen | Sep 15 2023 11:24 utc | 271
Neocon think tanks have long formulated the narrative, according to which the only way for neocons to win in Ukraine is to “convince Putin he has lost”.
What does “convincing Putin he has lost” mean, exactly? It means creating and proliferating baseless, non-provable and bogus claims left, right and center. Like the NAFO trolls on this board. The western corporate media has been doing exactly since for the last 18 months.
Of course, they pretty much derive all their reporting on Ukraine directly from the likes of Podolyak, Budanov, Zaluzhny, Zelensky and Anna Maylar, people who any sane person wouldn’t buy a washing machine.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 15 2023 11:46 utc | 542

Place: Urozhaine
Date: 15.09.2023
Coordinates:
47.746855, 36.853711
47.747630, 36.852163
📝 Description: A failed attack by the Ukrainian Armed Forces consisting of 8-12 MRAPs and lot of infantry.
id: 15092023.1400
https://t.me/CyberspecNews/42186

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 15 2023 12:01 utc | 543

Place: Urozhaine
Date: 15.09.2023
Coordinates:
47.746855, 36.853711
47.747630, 36.852163
📝 Description: A failed attack by the Ukrainian Armed Forces consisting of 8-12 MRAPs and lot of infantry.
id: 15092023.1400
https://t.me/CyberspecNews/42186

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 15 2023 12:01 utc | 544

ghiwen @ 271
I was just goofing on Shoigu, based on what I can see over the last 25ys I trust Putin’s ability to take people’s measure, if people like Shoigu and Nabulina weren’t capable or righteous they’d have been axed at this point. Lavrov shrugs a lot too.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 15 2023 12:10 utc | 545

ghiwen @ 271
I was just goofing on Shoigu, based on what I can see over the last 25ys I trust Putin’s ability to take people’s measure, if people like Shoigu and Nabulina weren’t capable or righteous they’d have been axed at this point. Lavrov shrugs a lot too.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 15 2023 12:10 utc | 546

Off topic, it’s hard for me to get exercised about global warming of a degree or two when during previous epochs the average temperature was as much as 10C higher ..Antarctica was covered in vegetation. The earth will survive and change is relatively slow. Humans will adapt, so I can accept the models without examining them. I just think the impacts are completely overblown.
Microplastics on the other hand might kill everything. They get into cell walls..polymers in the rainwater. To me this is the real environmental crisis. My 0.02$

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 15 2023 12:18 utc | 547

Off topic, it’s hard for me to get exercised about global warming of a degree or two when during previous epochs the average temperature was as much as 10C higher ..Antarctica was covered in vegetation. The earth will survive and change is relatively slow. Humans will adapt, so I can accept the models without examining them. I just think the impacts are completely overblown.
Microplastics on the other hand might kill everything. They get into cell walls..polymers in the rainwater. To me this is the real environmental crisis. My 0.02$

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 15 2023 12:18 utc | 548

Someone has hacked your Telegram account and is sending out spam messages about crypto-trading.

Posted by: James T | Sep 15 2023 12:27 utc | 549

Someone has hacked your Telegram account and is sending out spam messages about crypto-trading.

Posted by: James T | Sep 15 2023 12:27 utc | 550

The lies defuse and distract public rejection of western involvement in the conflict, they are obvious bullshit but they have been remarkably successful.
They are no more true than previous claims to have been fighting opium production during the western presence in Afghanistan. Grunts and fools believed it, stakeholders and cynics understood that the opposite was true.
Empire intends to use production opportunities of commodity weapons secure the fealty of Zone B and commissions to produce more technically advanced weapons to secure fealty in Zone A.
https://t.me/milinfolive/106422

Multi-caliber modular high-precision missile system “EuroPULS” from the German company “Krauss-Maffei Wegmann” (KMW) and Israeli “Elbit Systems” at the international exhibition “DSEI 2023” in London.
The combat vehicle, made on an armored chassis Iveco Trakker 8×8, is capable of using a set of Israeli 160-mm “Accular” (36 missiles, 35 km range), 302-mm EXTRA (8 missiles, 150 km) or 370-mm “Predator Hawk” (4 missiles, 290 km).
In addition, EuroPULS should be able to use American GMRLS M31 missiles (12 missiles), promising MBDA JFS-M cruise missiles (4 missiles, up to 500 km) and Kongsberg NSM missiles to defeat surface and ground targets (4 missiles, up to 250 km).

https://t.me/milinfolive/106419

Lockheed Martin reported on the successful test of the new high-precision GMLRS-ER missile for a range of 150 kilometers.
The company states that the test demonstrated almost double the range while maintaining accuracy. At the moment, Lockheed Martin produces GMLRS missiles with a range of 70+ kilometers, the total number of which has already exceeded 60,000 units.
It is expected that production of the updated GMLRS-ER will begin in 2024, and Finland will be one of the first foreign customers. However, do not think that the Americans will miss such a good chance to test a new missile at such a convenient military training ground as Ukraine.

Posted by: anon2020 | Sep 15 2023 12:39 utc | 551

The lies defuse and distract public rejection of western involvement in the conflict, they are obvious bullshit but they have been remarkably successful.
They are no more true than previous claims to have been fighting opium production during the western presence in Afghanistan. Grunts and fools believed it, stakeholders and cynics understood that the opposite was true.
Empire intends to use production opportunities of commodity weapons secure the fealty of Zone B and commissions to produce more technically advanced weapons to secure fealty in Zone A.
https://t.me/milinfolive/106422

Multi-caliber modular high-precision missile system “EuroPULS” from the German company “Krauss-Maffei Wegmann” (KMW) and Israeli “Elbit Systems” at the international exhibition “DSEI 2023” in London.
The combat vehicle, made on an armored chassis Iveco Trakker 8×8, is capable of using a set of Israeli 160-mm “Accular” (36 missiles, 35 km range), 302-mm EXTRA (8 missiles, 150 km) or 370-mm “Predator Hawk” (4 missiles, 290 km).
In addition, EuroPULS should be able to use American GMRLS M31 missiles (12 missiles), promising MBDA JFS-M cruise missiles (4 missiles, up to 500 km) and Kongsberg NSM missiles to defeat surface and ground targets (4 missiles, up to 250 km).

https://t.me/milinfolive/106419

Lockheed Martin reported on the successful test of the new high-precision GMLRS-ER missile for a range of 150 kilometers.
The company states that the test demonstrated almost double the range while maintaining accuracy. At the moment, Lockheed Martin produces GMLRS missiles with a range of 70+ kilometers, the total number of which has already exceeded 60,000 units.
It is expected that production of the updated GMLRS-ER will begin in 2024, and Finland will be one of the first foreign customers. However, do not think that the Americans will miss such a good chance to test a new missile at such a convenient military training ground as Ukraine.

Posted by: anon2020 | Sep 15 2023 12:39 utc | 552

@ghiwen | Sep 15 2023 11:02 utc | 268
Bit less polemic when rightly correction misinterpretations and lack of information would be appropriate.
Artillery calibres vary indeed between NATO and USSR/Russia. A short overview, all errors mine
NATO:
standard heavy calibres are 155mm, formerly some 203mm (M110, retired)
medium calibres 105mm
USSR/Russia
standard heavy calibres are 152mm, Malka howitzer 203mm, Tjulpan heavy mortar 240mm
medium calibres, mortars are mostly 122mm, , special Rapira anti tank gun 100mm
Special categories are the sub calibre smoothbore cannons, as used in tank main guns. They usually shoot rocket assistet penetrator ammo. NATO tanks have 120mm Russian/USSR ones 125mm. Ironically, the Challenger tank uses a rifled main gun, the nicely burning Leopard 1 has a 1005mm rifled gun.
Noteworthily, Ukraine initially had USSR heritage artillery and armor, and still uses, partially even produces it. East European NATO states also gave lot of that stuff to Ukraine. So there is a wild mix of different guns and calibres on the Uke side.

Posted by: aquadraht | Sep 15 2023 12:41 utc | 553

@ghiwen | Sep 15 2023 11:02 utc | 268
Bit less polemic when rightly correction misinterpretations and lack of information would be appropriate.
Artillery calibres vary indeed between NATO and USSR/Russia. A short overview, all errors mine
NATO:
standard heavy calibres are 155mm, formerly some 203mm (M110, retired)
medium calibres 105mm
USSR/Russia
standard heavy calibres are 152mm, Malka howitzer 203mm, Tjulpan heavy mortar 240mm
medium calibres, mortars are mostly 122mm, , special Rapira anti tank gun 100mm
Special categories are the sub calibre smoothbore cannons, as used in tank main guns. They usually shoot rocket assistet penetrator ammo. NATO tanks have 120mm Russian/USSR ones 125mm. Ironically, the Challenger tank uses a rifled main gun, the nicely burning Leopard 1 has a 1005mm rifled gun.
Noteworthily, Ukraine initially had USSR heritage artillery and armor, and still uses, partially even produces it. East European NATO states also gave lot of that stuff to Ukraine. So there is a wild mix of different guns and calibres on the Uke side.

Posted by: aquadraht | Sep 15 2023 12:41 utc | 554

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 11:11 utc | 269
That document appears to give a list of the medical conditions which exclude one from Russian military service – i.e. “не может быть принят” ‘cannot be accepted’. Listed are most of the illnesses that were recently greenlighted for Ukrainian conscripts.

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 12:51 utc | 555

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 11:11 utc | 269
That document appears to give a list of the medical conditions which exclude one from Russian military service – i.e. “не может быть принят” ‘cannot be accepted’. Listed are most of the illnesses that were recently greenlighted for Ukrainian conscripts.

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 12:51 utc | 556

@A.cagliostro | Sep 15 2023 11:38 utc | 272
For the first part because the smo is like a police action to remove the potential for a large attack but it solves nothing else, it makes it worse. There is no large army in Ukr to do anything big, it was small and underpowered since the first day. nato army was really bad but propaganda made it look like it was a very big war, difficult battles. Ukr was losing badly since first month. But nato had a million zombies to waste and more satellites and drones, their attacks look nice on MSM news and they’re mostly terrorism, basically. Russia’s small army, small number of satellites and lack of drones made it worse for them, pilots had to fly planes and helicopters to do things a drone can do. An ignored topic in the budget probably for 10+ years. Odessa appears only in some youtuber or blogger dreams and they never explain how to do it using the current smo restrictions. Minsk 3/Syria 2 is the most probable ending. Small smo, small results.

Posted by: rk | Sep 15 2023 12:52 utc | 557

@A.cagliostro | Sep 15 2023 11:38 utc | 272
For the first part because the smo is like a police action to remove the potential for a large attack but it solves nothing else, it makes it worse. There is no large army in Ukr to do anything big, it was small and underpowered since the first day. nato army was really bad but propaganda made it look like it was a very big war, difficult battles. Ukr was losing badly since first month. But nato had a million zombies to waste and more satellites and drones, their attacks look nice on MSM news and they’re mostly terrorism, basically. Russia’s small army, small number of satellites and lack of drones made it worse for them, pilots had to fly planes and helicopters to do things a drone can do. An ignored topic in the budget probably for 10+ years. Odessa appears only in some youtuber or blogger dreams and they never explain how to do it using the current smo restrictions. Minsk 3/Syria 2 is the most probable ending. Small smo, small results.

Posted by: rk | Sep 15 2023 12:52 utc | 558

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 12:51 utc | 281
Does NOT include: deafness, schizophrenia, heart disease, missing limbs etc.

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 13:00 utc | 559

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 12:51 utc | 281
Does NOT include: deafness, schizophrenia, heart disease, missing limbs etc.

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 13:00 utc | 560

Off topic, it’s hard for me to get exercised about global warming of a degree or two when during previous epochs the average temperature was as much as 10C higher
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 15 2023 12:18 utc | 277
You should do. We evolved in a period of cooler climate and low CO2 levels. A rapid change to the levels of the Jurassic would send humans, and most of the flora and fauna around us, extinct.
The planet will be fine of course and replace us in due course.
It’s not the levels that’s the issue. It’s the rate of change.

Posted by: The Accountant | Sep 15 2023 13:05 utc | 561

Off topic, it’s hard for me to get exercised about global warming of a degree or two when during previous epochs the average temperature was as much as 10C higher
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 15 2023 12:18 utc | 277
You should do. We evolved in a period of cooler climate and low CO2 levels. A rapid change to the levels of the Jurassic would send humans, and most of the flora and fauna around us, extinct.
The planet will be fine of course and replace us in due course.
It’s not the levels that’s the issue. It’s the rate of change.

Posted by: The Accountant | Sep 15 2023 13:05 utc | 562

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 13:00 utc | 283
You’re reaching now that you’re bluff has been called and someone actually checked out your document. My Russian is not good enough to completely follow all the technical medical terminology but there is indeed an entry that begins “zabolevaniya serdsa” which means diseases of the heart and things like diabetes, HIV, hepatitis etc. are all there. If you can find a few conditions (deafness, schizophrenia) that aren’t specifically mentioned I don’t think most would consider that the smoking gun that you implied – i.e. that Russia like Ukraine has essentially eliminated all medical exemptions.

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 13:21 utc | 563

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 13:00 utc | 283
You’re reaching now that you’re bluff has been called and someone actually checked out your document. My Russian is not good enough to completely follow all the technical medical terminology but there is indeed an entry that begins “zabolevaniya serdsa” which means diseases of the heart and things like diabetes, HIV, hepatitis etc. are all there. If you can find a few conditions (deafness, schizophrenia) that aren’t specifically mentioned I don’t think most would consider that the smoking gun that you implied – i.e. that Russia like Ukraine has essentially eliminated all medical exemptions.

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 13:21 utc | 564

Trilateral pact between Kim Jung-un, Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping (Harbin?), all three keen on next-door territory concurring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smOlXkPhdRQ
Putin met Jung-un on the 12th in Vladivostok.
Russia needs more ammo, but has oil and tech.
The PRC doesn’t want to get US sanctions but is friendly with Kim; wants to prolong the Ukraine war to buy time for himself.
North Korea cannot be sanctioned more, but wants oil and tech and has big Russian calibers ammo stocks.
All have land borders with rail and road connections.
Blusterous MICIMATT drove its enemies together, so now these form a stronger opponent together. BRICS expansion is another “result” from rule-less US bullying.

Posted by: Antonym | Sep 15 2023 13:26 utc | 565

Trilateral pact between Kim Jung-un, Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping (Harbin?), all three keen on next-door territory concurring: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smOlXkPhdRQ
Putin met Jung-un on the 12th in Vladivostok.
Russia needs more ammo, but has oil and tech.
The PRC doesn’t want to get US sanctions but is friendly with Kim; wants to prolong the Ukraine war to buy time for himself.
North Korea cannot be sanctioned more, but wants oil and tech and has big Russian calibers ammo stocks.
All have land borders with rail and road connections.
Blusterous MICIMATT drove its enemies together, so now these form a stronger opponent together. BRICS expansion is another “result” from rule-less US bullying.

Posted by: Antonym | Sep 15 2023 13:26 utc | 566

284 ‘ a rapid rise to the Jurassic’
When would that happen and what would cause it? CO2 wouldn’t even on the most insane ‘climate model’.
There have been cooler and and warmer periods during all of human evolution. And yet people live from the equator to the Poles, with temperature differences of 30 deg c.
Stop waffling.
A Finn going on holiday to Tenererife doesn’t melt, faint or die.

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Sep 15 2023 13:26 utc | 567

284 ‘ a rapid rise to the Jurassic’
When would that happen and what would cause it? CO2 wouldn’t even on the most insane ‘climate model’.
There have been cooler and and warmer periods during all of human evolution. And yet people live from the equator to the Poles, with temperature differences of 30 deg c.
Stop waffling.
A Finn going on holiday to Tenererife doesn’t melt, faint or die.

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Sep 15 2023 13:26 utc | 568

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 13:21 utc | 285
Cope away 🙂

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 13:31 utc | 569

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 13:21 utc | 285
Cope away 🙂

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 13:31 utc | 570

The Accountant | Sep 15 2023 13:05 utc | 284
Evidence for your claim on conditions when humans evolved – and dangers from rate of change?
What do you know about the CO2-levels in the Jurassic?
The planet will be fine as long as there is enough CO2 in the air – it is the basis for ALL life and it all stops if content goes below 200 ppm.
The Roman period was much warmer than today, allegedly with a lot less CO2 in the air. Makes you wonder if something mght not be correct with the climate models (and the reason for the hysteria): https://joannenova.com.au/2023/09/2500-years-of-wild-climate-change-in-southern-europe-it-was-warmer-in-roman-times-than-now/

Posted by: Hans K Johnsen | Sep 15 2023 13:40 utc | 571

The Accountant | Sep 15 2023 13:05 utc | 284
Evidence for your claim on conditions when humans evolved – and dangers from rate of change?
What do you know about the CO2-levels in the Jurassic?
The planet will be fine as long as there is enough CO2 in the air – it is the basis for ALL life and it all stops if content goes below 200 ppm.
The Roman period was much warmer than today, allegedly with a lot less CO2 in the air. Makes you wonder if something mght not be correct with the climate models (and the reason for the hysteria): https://joannenova.com.au/2023/09/2500-years-of-wild-climate-change-in-southern-europe-it-was-warmer-in-roman-times-than-now/

Posted by: Hans K Johnsen | Sep 15 2023 13:40 utc | 572

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 13:31 utc | 288
No substantive response then. If it were me I’d at least have researched an earlier Russian list of medical exemptions to military service so I could actually prove that there was a substantive change to accepted pre-war medical standards but I guess you find “cope away :)” persuasive.

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 13:48 utc | 573

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 13:31 utc | 288
No substantive response then. If it were me I’d at least have researched an earlier Russian list of medical exemptions to military service so I could actually prove that there was a substantive change to accepted pre-war medical standards but I guess you find “cope away :)” persuasive.

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 13:48 utc | 574

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 13:31 utc | 288
Further consideration of the list reveals an entry that I tentatively translate as “psychological conditions and conditions that lead to the need for psychological treatment”. Seems to me that that might rule out schizophrenics. You’re totally full of it.

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 14:02 utc | 575

Posted by: Membrum Virile | Sep 15 2023 13:31 utc | 288
Further consideration of the list reveals an entry that I tentatively translate as “psychological conditions and conditions that lead to the need for psychological treatment”. Seems to me that that might rule out schizophrenics. You’re totally full of it.

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 14:02 utc | 576

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 15 2023 2:32 utc | 199
———————————————————–
I also heard that Smoothbore gives longer range, but rifled barrels are more accurate.
Happy to be corrected by someone who was in artillery and really knows his stuff.
Posted by: Wondrous | Sep 15 2023 3:59 utc | 208
——————————————————————
Modern firearms come in two primary forms: smooth bore and rifled bore. A smoothbore weapon has a barrel that is completely smooth on the inside, while a rifled-bore weapon has grooves that help guide a bullet down the length of the barrel. Rifled barrels are not inherently more accurate, but they are more accurate when firing full bore shell types that benefit from spin stabilization. Fin stabilized rounds are mostly a thing of the past, since rifling harms the accuracy of fin stabilized projectiles. Smoothbores enable them to travel at extreme speeds, some as fast as 1,900m/s, and outperform rifled APDS rounds in almost every way. Nearly every modern main battle tank now uses a smoothbore gun, but not all. Shotgun barrels are generally smoothbore, meaning they are metal tubes with a smooth, non-rifled surface inside.
Mr. Internet to the rescue. I don’t bother with YouTube other than film clips and music.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 15 2023 14:06 utc | 577

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 15 2023 2:32 utc | 199
———————————————————–
I also heard that Smoothbore gives longer range, but rifled barrels are more accurate.
Happy to be corrected by someone who was in artillery and really knows his stuff.
Posted by: Wondrous | Sep 15 2023 3:59 utc | 208
——————————————————————
Modern firearms come in two primary forms: smooth bore and rifled bore. A smoothbore weapon has a barrel that is completely smooth on the inside, while a rifled-bore weapon has grooves that help guide a bullet down the length of the barrel. Rifled barrels are not inherently more accurate, but they are more accurate when firing full bore shell types that benefit from spin stabilization. Fin stabilized rounds are mostly a thing of the past, since rifling harms the accuracy of fin stabilized projectiles. Smoothbores enable them to travel at extreme speeds, some as fast as 1,900m/s, and outperform rifled APDS rounds in almost every way. Nearly every modern main battle tank now uses a smoothbore gun, but not all. Shotgun barrels are generally smoothbore, meaning they are metal tubes with a smooth, non-rifled surface inside.
Mr. Internet to the rescue. I don’t bother with YouTube other than film clips and music.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 15 2023 14:06 utc | 578

Even further consideration gives an entry that I translate as something like “lack on one hand of 3 fingers at the level of incomprehensible medical terminology or 4 fingers at the level of incomprehensible medical terminology” so you’re also lying when you say the list doesn’t include missing limbs. How are YOU coping 😉 ?

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 14:21 utc | 579

Even further consideration gives an entry that I translate as something like “lack on one hand of 3 fingers at the level of incomprehensible medical terminology or 4 fingers at the level of incomprehensible medical terminology” so you’re also lying when you say the list doesn’t include missing limbs. How are YOU coping 😉 ?

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 14:21 utc | 580

On the question of climate change- and its denial- Media Lens has this to say about propaganda and the ‘logic’ that we see so often in this discussion:
“..Despite the overwhelming evidence that climate catastrophe is not just a looming threat, it is here; despite the desperate pleading for help from climate scientists; and despite the surreal silence and indifference of Western political leaders, a stubborn rump of opinion continues to insist that the climate crisis is a cynical scam promoted by vested interests.
“We know from our own interactions with all kinds of people in all walks of life that many still hold this view. Indeed, it is a grim irony that our work has been used to bolster these claims. Because we have spent two decades emphasising how state-corporate media distort and omit the truth, critics regularly write to us along these lines:
‘The BBC and the Guardian are a propaganda system serving elite power. They are focusing so intensively on climate change because doing so serves an elite agenda of increased taxation and control. How can you, of all people, not see this?’
“But we have never argued that everything that appears in state-corporate media is an elite-serving lie. These media are indeed part of a propaganda system, and they do work hard to further the interests of power. But they are communicating to an audience of thinking people in a world where reality has a habit of interfering with even the most fanatical propagandist’s best-laid plans.
“If no weapons of mass destruction are found in Iraq, if the powers that be are either unable or disinclined to fake the evidence, then the media has to tell at least some of the truth. Why? Because they have to report undeniable, propaganda-unfriendly facts to avoid being exposed as completely brazen propagandists – a revelation that would undermine their ability to manipulate public opinion.
“Does anyone think that, last week, UK ‘mainstream’ outlets – media that have propagandised so hard on Ukraine – were eager to report news that the first ‘game-changing’, British Challenger 2 tank had been destroyed by Russian forces in Ukraine? The video evidence was overwhelming and readily available on social media; it couldn’t be suppressed. So, this propaganda-unfriendly news had to be reported. Does this mean UK journalists and editors are secretly supporting Russia, are funded by Russia, are pursuing ends serving Russian elites? No, it means that even highly sophisticated propaganda systems have their limits….”
https://www.medialens.org/2023/climate-collapse-the-grim-silence-of-our-leaders/

Posted by: bevin | Sep 15 2023 14:23 utc | 581

On the question of climate change- and its denial- Media Lens has this to say about propaganda and the ‘logic’ that we see so often in this discussion:
“..Despite the overwhelming evidence that climate catastrophe is not just a looming threat, it is here; despite the desperate pleading for help from climate scientists; and despite the surreal silence and indifference of Western political leaders, a stubborn rump of opinion continues to insist that the climate crisis is a cynical scam promoted by vested interests.
“We know from our own interactions with all kinds of people in all walks of life that many still hold this view. Indeed, it is a grim irony that our work has been used to bolster these claims. Because we have spent two decades emphasising how state-corporate media distort and omit the truth, critics regularly write to us along these lines:
‘The BBC and the Guardian are a propaganda system serving elite power. They are focusing so intensively on climate change because doing so serves an elite agenda of increased taxation and control. How can you, of all people, not see this?’
“But we have never argued that everything that appears in state-corporate media is an elite-serving lie. These media are indeed part of a propaganda system, and they do work hard to further the interests of power. But they are communicating to an audience of thinking people in a world where reality has a habit of interfering with even the most fanatical propagandist’s best-laid plans.
“If no weapons of mass destruction are found in Iraq, if the powers that be are either unable or disinclined to fake the evidence, then the media has to tell at least some of the truth. Why? Because they have to report undeniable, propaganda-unfriendly facts to avoid being exposed as completely brazen propagandists – a revelation that would undermine their ability to manipulate public opinion.
“Does anyone think that, last week, UK ‘mainstream’ outlets – media that have propagandised so hard on Ukraine – were eager to report news that the first ‘game-changing’, British Challenger 2 tank had been destroyed by Russian forces in Ukraine? The video evidence was overwhelming and readily available on social media; it couldn’t be suppressed. So, this propaganda-unfriendly news had to be reported. Does this mean UK journalists and editors are secretly supporting Russia, are funded by Russia, are pursuing ends serving Russian elites? No, it means that even highly sophisticated propaganda systems have their limits….”
https://www.medialens.org/2023/climate-collapse-the-grim-silence-of-our-leaders/

Posted by: bevin | Sep 15 2023 14:23 utc | 582

I’ve seen first hand production of 155mm bag charges at General Dynamics facility in Marion IL.
On a good day they can produce 20-30 and that’s a 24 hour, 2 shift operation.
The graft of GD and the speed the workers mull about on the production floor with their union sanctioned breaks every 2 hrs wont allow a better rate of production.

Posted by: JoeDontSurf | Sep 15 2023 14:31 utc | 583

I’ve seen first hand production of 155mm bag charges at General Dynamics facility in Marion IL.
On a good day they can produce 20-30 and that’s a 24 hour, 2 shift operation.
The graft of GD and the speed the workers mull about on the production floor with their union sanctioned breaks every 2 hrs wont allow a better rate of production.

Posted by: JoeDontSurf | Sep 15 2023 14:31 utc | 584

“…in part because Moscow is sacrificing safety and quality”
bullshit, Russian weapons are fit for purpose and rugged and have the quality needed to deliver in the field, rather than quality needed to pad out a Pentagon invoice.
Posted by: yarpos | Sep 15 2023 2:34 utc | 201
Amazing that such Bull Excrement gets repeated in Western Propaganda.
Western arms are 5 to 10 times more expensive AND Safety and Quality is compromised precisely because the Parasite Class has PROFIT only as their primary objective.
Russia can produce 5 to 10 times the Quantity, while maintaining or increasing Quality, for the same money wasted in the West.

Posted by: kupkee | Sep 15 2023 14:34 utc | 585

“…in part because Moscow is sacrificing safety and quality”
bullshit, Russian weapons are fit for purpose and rugged and have the quality needed to deliver in the field, rather than quality needed to pad out a Pentagon invoice.
Posted by: yarpos | Sep 15 2023 2:34 utc | 201
Amazing that such Bull Excrement gets repeated in Western Propaganda.
Western arms are 5 to 10 times more expensive AND Safety and Quality is compromised precisely because the Parasite Class has PROFIT only as their primary objective.
Russia can produce 5 to 10 times the Quantity, while maintaining or increasing Quality, for the same money wasted in the West.

Posted by: kupkee | Sep 15 2023 14:34 utc | 586

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 15 2023 2:32 utc | 198
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 15 2023 3:22 utc | 203
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 15 2023 3:30 utc | 204
it gets worse and worse !!!
after the 19 mounths of smo there should NONE confusion about what weapons are used by NATO and Russia
———-> Comparition: NATO 155mm against Russia 152mm
Acco goes one better by confusing artillery with tanks !!!
– artillery systems with smoothbore guns : Ha…
– at least the caliber and type for the challenger is right: 120mm with rifled barrel
are you really so dull ?
Posted by: ghiwen | Sep 15 2023 11:02 utc | 269
—————————————————
b kindly requests that we do not attack each other. You have a comprehension or disrespect issue.
The starting point of this conversation was the cost of 152 mm vs 155 mm artillery rounds.
Having traversed the Aberdeen Proving Grounds when they still had their tank collection and on display some time ago was educational.
The cost of 152 mm vs 155 mm between Russia and the US:
Russia has state industries although it also relies on the private sector weapons procurement. This cuts out the middleman with multiple layers of margin markup. US and Western procurement relies on RFI, RFP, proposals in need of evaluation (tech prop, cost prop), award by contract, protest, negotiations with the losers and buyout), IV&V for compliance with contract and the submission of compliance, completion and other documents.
There is more detail but this gives a good hint.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 15 2023 14:43 utc | 587

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 15 2023 2:32 utc | 198
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 15 2023 3:22 utc | 203
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 15 2023 3:30 utc | 204
it gets worse and worse !!!
after the 19 mounths of smo there should NONE confusion about what weapons are used by NATO and Russia
———-> Comparition: NATO 155mm against Russia 152mm
Acco goes one better by confusing artillery with tanks !!!
– artillery systems with smoothbore guns : Ha…
– at least the caliber and type for the challenger is right: 120mm with rifled barrel
are you really so dull ?
Posted by: ghiwen | Sep 15 2023 11:02 utc | 269
—————————————————
b kindly requests that we do not attack each other. You have a comprehension or disrespect issue.
The starting point of this conversation was the cost of 152 mm vs 155 mm artillery rounds.
Having traversed the Aberdeen Proving Grounds when they still had their tank collection and on display some time ago was educational.
The cost of 152 mm vs 155 mm between Russia and the US:
Russia has state industries although it also relies on the private sector weapons procurement. This cuts out the middleman with multiple layers of margin markup. US and Western procurement relies on RFI, RFP, proposals in need of evaluation (tech prop, cost prop), award by contract, protest, negotiations with the losers and buyout), IV&V for compliance with contract and the submission of compliance, completion and other documents.
There is more detail but this gives a good hint.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 15 2023 14:43 utc | 588

# Too many to name
Thank you for your responses to my 152 mm vs 155 mm artillery post. Lots of detail there.
I just add the following that I have lifted from Quora.
Smith Jacobsen 2yrs ago
…many of the shells used in 155 mm artillery are up to 30 cm longer than those used in 152 mm versions… this is what causes 155 mm to be much more destructive in practice.

So it seems to be mainly due to “ what packs it “ as what an early responder said above.

Posted by: Wondrous | Sep 15 2023 14:50 utc | 589

# Too many to name
Thank you for your responses to my 152 mm vs 155 mm artillery post. Lots of detail there.
I just add the following that I have lifted from Quora.
Smith Jacobsen 2yrs ago
…many of the shells used in 155 mm artillery are up to 30 cm longer than those used in 152 mm versions… this is what causes 155 mm to be much more destructive in practice.

So it seems to be mainly due to “ what packs it “ as what an early responder said above.

Posted by: Wondrous | Sep 15 2023 14:50 utc | 590

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 14:21 utc | 294
You are nonstop responding to and struggling to get the better of a poster who’s trolling openly. Feel free to follow the golden rule: don’t feed the troll.

Posted by: Constantine | Sep 15 2023 15:07 utc | 591

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 14:21 utc | 294
You are nonstop responding to and struggling to get the better of a poster who’s trolling openly. Feel free to follow the golden rule: don’t feed the troll.

Posted by: Constantine | Sep 15 2023 15:07 utc | 592

interesting bit of news https://t.me/s/CyberspecNews
Very interesting news from the Kupyansky direction.
Military correspondent Marat Khairullin reports that Russian troops, with a surprise blow to the enemy, crossed Oskol on a front 4 kilometers wide and formed a bridgehead north of Dvurechnaya. There are battles to expand the bridgehead. Expanding the bridgehead will create a direct threat to bypass the enemy forces defending Dvurechnaya, the capture of which is necessary to advance north of Kupyansk in the northeastern regions of the Kharkov region.
To me, this confirms that Ukrainian reserves are being hollowed out. They simply can’t protect the entire line of contact with enough reserves to hold all of it. The same predicament Russia found itself in last fall. This ties in with their evacuation orders for settlements along the Dnieper river. The Russian strategy of applying pressure everywhere until a weak spot is found is paying off. I hope that Ukraine will pull back and also end their insane offense to save Ukrainian lives. Pretty sure the Ukraine general staff knows what’s up- they are losing badly with no prospects of turning the tide.

Posted by: ctiger | Sep 15 2023 15:26 utc | 593

interesting bit of news https://t.me/s/CyberspecNews
Very interesting news from the Kupyansky direction.
Military correspondent Marat Khairullin reports that Russian troops, with a surprise blow to the enemy, crossed Oskol on a front 4 kilometers wide and formed a bridgehead north of Dvurechnaya. There are battles to expand the bridgehead. Expanding the bridgehead will create a direct threat to bypass the enemy forces defending Dvurechnaya, the capture of which is necessary to advance north of Kupyansk in the northeastern regions of the Kharkov region.
To me, this confirms that Ukrainian reserves are being hollowed out. They simply can’t protect the entire line of contact with enough reserves to hold all of it. The same predicament Russia found itself in last fall. This ties in with their evacuation orders for settlements along the Dnieper river. The Russian strategy of applying pressure everywhere until a weak spot is found is paying off. I hope that Ukraine will pull back and also end their insane offense to save Ukrainian lives. Pretty sure the Ukraine general staff knows what’s up- they are losing badly with no prospects of turning the tide.

Posted by: ctiger | Sep 15 2023 15:26 utc | 594

Posted by: Constantine | Sep 15 2023 15:07 utc | 300
I disagree. He provided what appears to be a genuine document and attempted to misrepresent its contents. If that’s not worth some examination and refutation I don’t know what is.

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 15:53 utc | 595

Posted by: Constantine | Sep 15 2023 15:07 utc | 300
I disagree. He provided what appears to be a genuine document and attempted to misrepresent its contents. If that’s not worth some examination and refutation I don’t know what is.

Posted by: OnceWere | Sep 15 2023 15:53 utc | 596

Giyane @251: “…the British offer assistance to one tribe against another, starting a war in which like Ukraine the tribe assisted are completely colonised.”
That’s how a chihuahua country like Britain controlled so much of the world, and is how the US still does things after “decolonizing” the Brutish empire.
Current example: Iraq is moving the kurdish fighters away from the border with Iran. Whose idea was it to position those shitheads combat formations on the border with Iran in the first place? That move is guaranteed to keep hostilities at a low boil, from which it is easy to arrange an “event” that will spark real confrontation.
In the guise of “helping disadvantaged minorities”, the empire aligns with and empowers the biggest assholes it can find in a region. In previously peaceful areas, there is a reason some groups are “disadvantaged”, which is because they are asshole troublemakers. As long as they stay disempowered and disadvantaged, peace prevails. With the empire standing behind them they gain stature and power and start to do what asshole troublemakers do: start trouble. This destabilizes local power structures in civil society and allows the empire to step in with its own power structures. The empire then begins using those installed power structures to piecemeal dismantle local culture, which further destabilizes local civil society and allows the empire to expand its power there. Meanwhile, the citizens of the empire believe they are doing the world a favor by destroying local cultures this way and replacing those cultures with plastic copies of their own culture. To this day practically all British sLimeys are still convinced their empire was a force for good in the world. At least Americans have the decency to be embarrassed when you point out what they are doing is imperialism, so in that respect they morally tower over the British.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 15 2023 15:54 utc | 597

Giyane @251: “…the British offer assistance to one tribe against another, starting a war in which like Ukraine the tribe assisted are completely colonised.”
That’s how a chihuahua country like Britain controlled so much of the world, and is how the US still does things after “decolonizing” the Brutish empire.
Current example: Iraq is moving the kurdish fighters away from the border with Iran. Whose idea was it to position those shitheads combat formations on the border with Iran in the first place? That move is guaranteed to keep hostilities at a low boil, from which it is easy to arrange an “event” that will spark real confrontation.
In the guise of “helping disadvantaged minorities”, the empire aligns with and empowers the biggest assholes it can find in a region. In previously peaceful areas, there is a reason some groups are “disadvantaged”, which is because they are asshole troublemakers. As long as they stay disempowered and disadvantaged, peace prevails. With the empire standing behind them they gain stature and power and start to do what asshole troublemakers do: start trouble. This destabilizes local power structures in civil society and allows the empire to step in with its own power structures. The empire then begins using those installed power structures to piecemeal dismantle local culture, which further destabilizes local civil society and allows the empire to expand its power there. Meanwhile, the citizens of the empire believe they are doing the world a favor by destroying local cultures this way and replacing those cultures with plastic copies of their own culture. To this day practically all British sLimeys are still convinced their empire was a force for good in the world. At least Americans have the decency to be embarrassed when you point out what they are doing is imperialism, so in that respect they morally tower over the British.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 15 2023 15:54 utc | 598

Not even dignifying this with an @ tag.

The climate models of the “global warmists” are intended to deliver a panic as desired by the WEF.

Get a load of this guy. Do you read this stuff after your fingers type it out? The first thing we’re doing after the revolution is putting people like you in Uygher camps, for your own damn good.

Posted by: fnord | Sep 15 2023 15:57 utc | 599

Not even dignifying this with an @ tag.

The climate models of the “global warmists” are intended to deliver a panic as desired by the WEF.

Get a load of this guy. Do you read this stuff after your fingers type it out? The first thing we’re doing after the revolution is putting people like you in Uygher camps, for your own damn good.

Posted by: fnord | Sep 15 2023 15:57 utc | 600