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September 27, 2023
Mainstream Media Admit – Ukraine’s Propaganda Is Full Of Lies

As a sign of the turning narrative of the war in Ukraine we find a new New York Times piece about 'disinformation' that is not about Russia but about lies from Ukraine.

Andrew E. Kramer, the NYT correspondent in Kiev, opens with an anecdote from the first weeks of the war:

Six weeks after Russia launched its full-scale invasion, Ukraine sank the flagship of Russia’s Black Sea Fleet, dealing a serious blow to the enemy navy, and, a Ukrainian official said, killing the ship’s captain.

“We do not mourn,” an adviser to the interior minister at the time, Anton Gerashchenko, said.

The only problem was that the captain — or somebody who resembled him — later appeared in a video of survivors released by the Russian Navy. He had escaped his sinking ship, the Moskva, the video seemed to indicate.

Then comes a paragraph that could fit both countries but the following one it is again related to disinformation from Ukraine:

What is clear is that misdirection, disinformation and propaganda are weapons regularly deployed in Russia’s war in Ukraine to buoy spirits at home, demoralize the enemy or lead opponents into a trap. And it is often hard to know when reports are false or why they may have been disseminated.

Now, Ukraine and Russia are offering dueling narratives over whether a more senior Russian naval officer, the commanding admiral of the Black Sea Fleet, is alive or dead.

Well, in this interview Adm. Viktor Sokolov looks quite alive.

Then comes an astonishing admission:

Few military analysts, […], believe the Ukrainian military’s optimistic daily account of Russian casualties running into the hundreds that is nonetheless reported widely in Ukrainian media.

It is the first time I see a public refutation of Ukraine's laughable claims about Russian casualties in the mainstream media. It is also an indictment of the Biden administration and the Pentagon who publicly use the Ukrainian numbers.

The piece ends with a wise acknowledgement:

Mr. Gerashchenko said that, in the end, war propaganda is only effective when it accompanies battlefield successes. The missile strike on the headquarters of the Russian Black Sea Fleet last week, he said, was a “stunning success of Ukrainian intelligence and the air force that fired the cruise missiles on a supposedly well-defended site.”

“You cannot win the propaganda war without winning the real war,” he added.

Oh really? Guess who told you so:

Good to see that this obvious truth is finally sinking in.

—

Yesterday the Minister of Defense in Russia, Sergei Shoigu, gave an update (in Russian) on the war in Ukraine. The speech seemed to include a time frame for the war to end (machine translation):

The United States and its allies continue to arm the Armed Forces of Ukraine, and the Kiev regime throws untrained soldiers into senseless assaults, for slaughter.

Such cynical actions by the West and their cronies in Kiev only encourage Ukraine to self-destruct."

"Under these conditions, we continue to increase the combat power of the Armed Forces, including through the supply of modern weapons and improving the training of troops, taking into account the experience of a special military operation. Consistent implementation of the activities of the Action Plan until 2025 will allow us to achieve our goals."

Shoigu expects the war to run throughout 2024 and into 2025. But if the current loss rate of the Ukrainian army continues the country will be running out of soldiers and armored vehicles before the end of next year.

—

Schadenfreude:

Posted by b on September 27, 2023 at 13:50 UTC | Permalink
Comments

UA Process of History Revisionism Kicks In
Does this author really think he can smear the Simon Wiesenthal institute?
https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/swc-urges-canadian-prime.html

Are There Ukrainian War Criminals in Canada? | Kyiv Post |
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/22108
The fear of “Ukrainian Nazis” infiltrating Canada is not something new – but is there more to the story?
WARNING UA DISINFORMATION
Did you know that both cases have their origins in a Soviet-era campaign intended to provoke social discord and conflict throughout the West?

Galicia freedom fighters waffen ss retreated with German wehrmacht as Soviet red army advances in 1944

Posted by: Oui | Sep 28 2023 19:06 utc | 501

UA Process of History Revisionism Kicks In
Does this author really think he can smear the Simon Wiesenthal institute?
https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/swc-urges-canadian-prime.html

Are There Ukrainian War Criminals in Canada? | Kyiv Post |
https://www.kyivpost.com/post/22108
The fear of “Ukrainian Nazis” infiltrating Canada is not something new – but is there more to the story?
WARNING UA DISINFORMATION
Did you know that both cases have their origins in a Soviet-era campaign intended to provoke social discord and conflict throughout the West?

Galicia freedom fighters waffen ss retreated with German wehrmacht as Soviet red army advances in 1944

Posted by: Oui | Sep 28 2023 19:06 utc | 502

Former soldiers of the Galicia Division were transferred to the United Kingdom after the war
[https://www.ukrainiansintheuk.info/eng/01/former-e.htm%5D
In July 1944 the division, as part of the German 13th Army Corps, fought in a battle near Brody [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lvov–Sandomierz_offensive%5D against advancing Soviet forces. The corps was surrounded and destroyed.
In May 1945, when Germany surrendered to the Allied Powers, the Galicia Division was based in Austria. Retreating westwards to avoid capture by the advancing Soviet Red Army, most of its members (about 10,000) surrendered to the British Army and were temporarily interned near Spittal.
[…]
As a result, over 8,000 former soldiers of the Galicia Division were allowed to remain in the UK as EVWs. Many of them subsequently emigrated to other countries.

Posted by: Oui | Sep 28 2023 19:10 utc | 503

Former soldiers of the Galicia Division were transferred to the United Kingdom after the war
[https://www.ukrainiansintheuk.info/eng/01/former-e.htm%5D
In July 1944 the division, as part of the German 13th Army Corps, fought in a battle near Brody [https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lvov–Sandomierz_offensive%5D against advancing Soviet forces. The corps was surrounded and destroyed.
In May 1945, when Germany surrendered to the Allied Powers, the Galicia Division was based in Austria. Retreating westwards to avoid capture by the advancing Soviet Red Army, most of its members (about 10,000) surrendered to the British Army and were temporarily interned near Spittal.
[…]
As a result, over 8,000 former soldiers of the Galicia Division were allowed to remain in the UK as EVWs. Many of them subsequently emigrated to other countries.

Posted by: Oui | Sep 28 2023 19:10 utc | 504

@Posted by: john brewster | Sep 28 2023 18:39 utc | 249

I read the book decades ago. It seemed to me like common sense. Latitude changes disrupt crops and animals. The size of continents has a bearing on what kind of large mammals can do well. People with guns can massacre people without them. If Diamond left out one factor, it was naval technology. Geography caused the people of Western Europe to do a lot of sailing, especially the island country of Britain and the waterlogged Dutch. They had been sailors forever. These are simply facts, not some ideological handwaving.
You gotta do better than the broad brush dismissal of “determinism”.

Jared Diamond was a scientist, not a historian or a political economist or a sociologist or an anthropologist and it showed in his extremely simplistic notions that are at odds with actual historical facts. This video, from Bad Empanada, details the legion of historical inaccuracies in Diamond’s most well known work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq6EuZj4axA&t=1452s
There is also the counter-example of the Chinese in the 15th century that put forth a massive fleet consisting of ships that dwarfed anything the European had even a couple of centuries later. Did they use this massive fleet for conquest? No they did not, they used it for discovery and the opening of relations with other nations.
Of course geography plays a role, but also do many other factors. Europe’s ability to dominate the world was due to a very specific set of political economic as well as geographic circumstances. One of the biggest was the period that the Mongol Empire connected Asia with Europe and facilitated the flow of technology from advanced China to backward Europe. The Mongols had crushed the highly advanced Chinese Song Dynasty, that was on the verge of a commercial revolution in the 13th century. That same Mongol Empire was a major reason why China did not continue with its massive fleet in the 15th century, deciding that it needed the resources to protect against its northern land enemies. The defeat of the Mongol invasion of Europe in the 13th century was also pivotal.
The peoples of Central and South America were also divided, allowing the conquistadors to ally themselves with peoples that were dominated by the Aztecs and others. In these battles the few hundred conquistadors had many tens of thousands of local allies, without which the conquistadors would have been wiped out.
Please do what Diamond did not do, and work to actually understand the period in question.
Another riposte to Diamond’s thesis, of which there are many, questioning even Diamond’s scientific assumptions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OQmvRUdr3U&t=348s

Posted by: Roger | Sep 28 2023 19:26 utc | 505

@Posted by: john brewster | Sep 28 2023 18:39 utc | 249

I read the book decades ago. It seemed to me like common sense. Latitude changes disrupt crops and animals. The size of continents has a bearing on what kind of large mammals can do well. People with guns can massacre people without them. If Diamond left out one factor, it was naval technology. Geography caused the people of Western Europe to do a lot of sailing, especially the island country of Britain and the waterlogged Dutch. They had been sailors forever. These are simply facts, not some ideological handwaving.
You gotta do better than the broad brush dismissal of “determinism”.

Jared Diamond was a scientist, not a historian or a political economist or a sociologist or an anthropologist and it showed in his extremely simplistic notions that are at odds with actual historical facts. This video, from Bad Empanada, details the legion of historical inaccuracies in Diamond’s most well known work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kq6EuZj4axA&t=1452s
There is also the counter-example of the Chinese in the 15th century that put forth a massive fleet consisting of ships that dwarfed anything the European had even a couple of centuries later. Did they use this massive fleet for conquest? No they did not, they used it for discovery and the opening of relations with other nations.
Of course geography plays a role, but also do many other factors. Europe’s ability to dominate the world was due to a very specific set of political economic as well as geographic circumstances. One of the biggest was the period that the Mongol Empire connected Asia with Europe and facilitated the flow of technology from advanced China to backward Europe. The Mongols had crushed the highly advanced Chinese Song Dynasty, that was on the verge of a commercial revolution in the 13th century. That same Mongol Empire was a major reason why China did not continue with its massive fleet in the 15th century, deciding that it needed the resources to protect against its northern land enemies. The defeat of the Mongol invasion of Europe in the 13th century was also pivotal.
The peoples of Central and South America were also divided, allowing the conquistadors to ally themselves with peoples that were dominated by the Aztecs and others. In these battles the few hundred conquistadors had many tens of thousands of local allies, without which the conquistadors would have been wiped out.
Please do what Diamond did not do, and work to actually understand the period in question.
Another riposte to Diamond’s thesis, of which there are many, questioning even Diamond’s scientific assumptions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OQmvRUdr3U&t=348s

Posted by: Roger | Sep 28 2023 19:26 utc | 506

@Posted by: bubbles | Sep 28 2023 18:48 utc | 250

Btw, have you seen what US 10 yr is at today?

Broken out to new highs, but a bit extended so may pull back for a few days to recharge before it launches higher again to target 5%. If so, the real downside fireworks in the stock market will begin, well timed for the crash month of October.
Jamie Diamond, the Head of JPM is talking about 7% short term rates. Given how much the Federal Reserve has failed at its job of not pushing inflation (the idiotic zero rates being kept during 2021) and then not getting ahead of inflation (the idiotic “see no inflation” BS at the start of this year) they may be forced into a few more rate rises – perfectly timed to tank the economy given that Biden’s administration is no longer pumping like it was late last year (the equivalent of a 4% of GDP fiscal expansion!). Things may look very grim by mid next year.

Posted by: Roger | Sep 28 2023 19:38 utc | 507

@Posted by: bubbles | Sep 28 2023 18:48 utc | 250

Btw, have you seen what US 10 yr is at today?

Broken out to new highs, but a bit extended so may pull back for a few days to recharge before it launches higher again to target 5%. If so, the real downside fireworks in the stock market will begin, well timed for the crash month of October.
Jamie Diamond, the Head of JPM is talking about 7% short term rates. Given how much the Federal Reserve has failed at its job of not pushing inflation (the idiotic zero rates being kept during 2021) and then not getting ahead of inflation (the idiotic “see no inflation” BS at the start of this year) they may be forced into a few more rate rises – perfectly timed to tank the economy given that Biden’s administration is no longer pumping like it was late last year (the equivalent of a 4% of GDP fiscal expansion!). Things may look very grim by mid next year.

Posted by: Roger | Sep 28 2023 19:38 utc | 508

Slavyangrad Telegram Channel Reports…
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/64772
Slavyangrad, [9/28/23 2:14 PM]
Military Chronicle:
What is known about the “kill zone” for the Ukrainian Armed Forces in the Rabotino-Verbovoye section: analysis of the Military Chronicle
In addition to battles in the forward security zone, the AFU are regularly destroyed in areas specially created for this purpose.
What is happening in the area of ​​Rabotino and Verbovoye at the moment?
After 116 days of offensive , the Ukrainian Armed Forces have not approached the main defensive lines. All fighting, as in June, is concentrated around the forward security zone. Attempts by the Ukrainian army to gain a foothold in Pyatikhatki and in the Rabotino-Verbovoye sector are regularly frustrated due to heavy losses, as well as difficulties in managing and supporting the group.
Why can’t the Ukrainian Armed Forces gain a foothold in the Rabotino-Verbovoye section?
One of the main negative factors affecting the pace of the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ offensive is the crowding of six to seven brigade elements in a relatively small space, not counting individual battalions and auxiliary units.
At the moment, at least three elite brigades are concentrated in the Rabotino-Verbovoye section: the 47th Mechanized Infantry Brigade “Magura”, the 46th Airmobile Brigade and reserves – units of the 82nd Specialized Airborne Brigade. Three formations of the new formation operate in the same area: the 116th, 117th and 118th mechanized brigades, with the latter serving as a source of infantry for “meat assaults”. Due to high losses, armored vehicles and aircraft of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are used to a limited extent in this area. These formations have not been trained for joint action, and the reinforcements they receive usually do not know the terrain and have problems with communication and coordination. As a result of overcrowding and management problems, Ukrainian formations are more likely to interfere with each other than to advance in a coordinated manner.
Why did this happen?
As a result of continuous attacks over 3.5 months, the Ukrainian Armed Forces managed to make slight progress towards Rabotin and Verbovoye. Although Ukrainian propaganda presents this as a strategic achievement, in fact Ukrainian troops are in a fire pocket and fighting in a semi-encirclement in a limited area.
The Rabotino-Verbovoye fire bag, which the military among themselves call the “kill zone,” is visible and shot through by Russian artillery from three sides, which leads to continuous high losses in people and equipment for the AFU.
The American M1097 Avenger air defense systems and the British FV4333 Stormer air defense systems are few in number and are often used for other purposes, covering not the forward units, but the rear areas near Orekhov and Novodanilovka, where the Ukrainian Armed Forces are trying to accumulate equipment.
It is also worth noting that inside the Rabotino-Verbovoye sack there are smaller destruction zones. The combination of minefields of various types, artificially created corridors and a wide range of surveillance equipment make it possible to identify and quickly defeat almost any maneuvers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, as well as suppress attempts to accumulate forces.
Are the Ukrainian Armed Forces moving forward or not?
Due to the fact that the Ukrainian troops failed to penetrate the defenses of the Russian Armed Forces head-on during the 116 days of the offensive, the command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was forced to change the direction of the attack and now the Ukrainian infantry is trying to advance parallel to the defense line of the Russian Armed Forces, which is clearly seen in the example of Verbovoye. The density of minefields, as well as “surprises” in the form of mining trenches, do not allow us to act safely, and the growing shortage of experienced sappers is forcing the Ukrainian Armed Forces to scale up “meat assaults,” aggravating the already threatening situation with losses.
What is the end result?
The entire grouping of the Ukrainian army in this area relies on one transport and logistics hub – the regional center of Orekhov. In addition to the fact that objects there are regularly destroyed by Russian aircraft, with the onset of cold weather and muddy roads, the Ukrainian Armed Forces will have a minimum number of routes suitable for movement. There are few straight and paved roads in this area, and almost all of them are under fire control, which can provoke the emergence of one or more additional “kill zones”, which will significantly complicate, and possibly shorten, the life cycle of the Ukrainian Armed Forces group in this area.
#source (“>https://t.me/milchronicles/2662)
There you have it…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 28 2023 19:41 utc | 509

Slavyangrad Telegram Channel Reports…
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/64772
Slavyangrad, [9/28/23 2:14 PM]
Military Chronicle:
What is known about the “kill zone” for the Ukrainian Armed Forces in the Rabotino-Verbovoye section: analysis of the Military Chronicle
In addition to battles in the forward security zone, the AFU are regularly destroyed in areas specially created for this purpose.
What is happening in the area of ​​Rabotino and Verbovoye at the moment?
After 116 days of offensive , the Ukrainian Armed Forces have not approached the main defensive lines. All fighting, as in June, is concentrated around the forward security zone. Attempts by the Ukrainian army to gain a foothold in Pyatikhatki and in the Rabotino-Verbovoye sector are regularly frustrated due to heavy losses, as well as difficulties in managing and supporting the group.
Why can’t the Ukrainian Armed Forces gain a foothold in the Rabotino-Verbovoye section?
One of the main negative factors affecting the pace of the Ukrainian Armed Forces’ offensive is the crowding of six to seven brigade elements in a relatively small space, not counting individual battalions and auxiliary units.
At the moment, at least three elite brigades are concentrated in the Rabotino-Verbovoye section: the 47th Mechanized Infantry Brigade “Magura”, the 46th Airmobile Brigade and reserves – units of the 82nd Specialized Airborne Brigade. Three formations of the new formation operate in the same area: the 116th, 117th and 118th mechanized brigades, with the latter serving as a source of infantry for “meat assaults”. Due to high losses, armored vehicles and aircraft of the Ukrainian Armed Forces are used to a limited extent in this area. These formations have not been trained for joint action, and the reinforcements they receive usually do not know the terrain and have problems with communication and coordination. As a result of overcrowding and management problems, Ukrainian formations are more likely to interfere with each other than to advance in a coordinated manner.
Why did this happen?
As a result of continuous attacks over 3.5 months, the Ukrainian Armed Forces managed to make slight progress towards Rabotin and Verbovoye. Although Ukrainian propaganda presents this as a strategic achievement, in fact Ukrainian troops are in a fire pocket and fighting in a semi-encirclement in a limited area.
The Rabotino-Verbovoye fire bag, which the military among themselves call the “kill zone,” is visible and shot through by Russian artillery from three sides, which leads to continuous high losses in people and equipment for the AFU.
The American M1097 Avenger air defense systems and the British FV4333 Stormer air defense systems are few in number and are often used for other purposes, covering not the forward units, but the rear areas near Orekhov and Novodanilovka, where the Ukrainian Armed Forces are trying to accumulate equipment.
It is also worth noting that inside the Rabotino-Verbovoye sack there are smaller destruction zones. The combination of minefields of various types, artificially created corridors and a wide range of surveillance equipment make it possible to identify and quickly defeat almost any maneuvers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, as well as suppress attempts to accumulate forces.
Are the Ukrainian Armed Forces moving forward or not?
Due to the fact that the Ukrainian troops failed to penetrate the defenses of the Russian Armed Forces head-on during the 116 days of the offensive, the command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was forced to change the direction of the attack and now the Ukrainian infantry is trying to advance parallel to the defense line of the Russian Armed Forces, which is clearly seen in the example of Verbovoye. The density of minefields, as well as “surprises” in the form of mining trenches, do not allow us to act safely, and the growing shortage of experienced sappers is forcing the Ukrainian Armed Forces to scale up “meat assaults,” aggravating the already threatening situation with losses.
What is the end result?
The entire grouping of the Ukrainian army in this area relies on one transport and logistics hub – the regional center of Orekhov. In addition to the fact that objects there are regularly destroyed by Russian aircraft, with the onset of cold weather and muddy roads, the Ukrainian Armed Forces will have a minimum number of routes suitable for movement. There are few straight and paved roads in this area, and almost all of them are under fire control, which can provoke the emergence of one or more additional “kill zones”, which will significantly complicate, and possibly shorten, the life cycle of the Ukrainian Armed Forces group in this area.
#source (“>https://t.me/milchronicles/2662)
There you have it…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 28 2023 19:41 utc | 510

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 28 2023 14:07 utc | 232
In the Marxist consciousness does capitalism play the same role as the devil does in traditional theological doctrine? I know it has an eschatological core, offering its believers the promise of universal salvation, but is it also dependent on a hard edged logically positivist Manichaeism, if that is not a contradiction in terms.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 20:20 utc | 511

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 28 2023 14:07 utc | 232
In the Marxist consciousness does capitalism play the same role as the devil does in traditional theological doctrine? I know it has an eschatological core, offering its believers the promise of universal salvation, but is it also dependent on a hard edged logically positivist Manichaeism, if that is not a contradiction in terms.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 20:20 utc | 512

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 28 2023 19:41 utc | 255
Exactly what NATO had in store for any Soviet MRR’s or TR’s who rolled across the border, 40 years ago. I have a sneaking suspicion that the ‘B’ team were allowed to help the Ukrainians prep their offensive, allowing the high-flyers to distance themselves from the inevitable disaster.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 20:30 utc | 513

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 28 2023 19:41 utc | 255
Exactly what NATO had in store for any Soviet MRR’s or TR’s who rolled across the border, 40 years ago. I have a sneaking suspicion that the ‘B’ team were allowed to help the Ukrainians prep their offensive, allowing the high-flyers to distance themselves from the inevitable disaster.

Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 20:30 utc | 514

In the Marxist consciousness does capitalism play the same role as the devil does in traditional theological doctrine?
Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 20:20 utc | 256
—
It does not. In fact, Marxists see capitalism as a necessary stage of development in order to achieve socialism. So it is actually a good thing. Temporarily. 🙂

Posted by: Nobody | Sep 28 2023 20:39 utc | 515

In the Marxist consciousness does capitalism play the same role as the devil does in traditional theological doctrine?
Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 20:20 utc | 256
—
It does not. In fact, Marxists see capitalism as a necessary stage of development in order to achieve socialism. So it is actually a good thing. Temporarily. 🙂

Posted by: Nobody | Sep 28 2023 20:39 utc | 516

132 138 194 thanks so much for confirming source of the this article and Giyane thanks for your appreciation cheers folks

Posted by: Jo | Sep 28 2023 20:44 utc | 517

132 138 194 thanks so much for confirming source of the this article and Giyane thanks for your appreciation cheers folks

Posted by: Jo | Sep 28 2023 20:44 utc | 518

Posted by: Roger | Sep 28 2023 19:26 utc | 253

Jared Diamond was a scientist, not a historian or a political economist or a sociologist or an anthropologist and it showed in his extremely simplistic notions that are at odds with actual historical facts.

—-
Can we please not make this a black and white discussion? I’m not comfortable saying Diamond is 100% right or 100% wrong. You say he is a scientist, as if that invalidates any ideas he may have had about sociology. Sorry, this is the same game the classical economists played against physicsts. (Even though we stole all your math and invented this bullshit called utility, you cannot call us out becaiuse you are not “ecomomists”.)

Of course geography plays a role, but also do many other factors. Europe’s ability to dominate the world was due to a very specific set of political economic as well as geographic circumstances.

Well, then we agree, and I don’t appreciate the hairs you are spitting here. Also, I don’t have an hour or even fifteen minutes to spend watching videos. Could you give me say five bullet points?
Let me tell you what i like about Diamond. (I read the book 25 years ago, so I don’t remember what I didn’t like.) As with the Wikipedia (yes, I know they are Deep State) quote, Diamond is pushing back against racism. Is that a bad thing?
The real “killer” argument of Diamond is “germs”. AFAIK, something like 90% of native Americans were killed off by European diseases in the century after 1492. Regions were just depopulated. Please tell me if this is more bad history.

The book attempts to explain why Eurasian and North African civilizations have survived and conquered others, while arguing against the idea that Eurasian hegemony is due to any form of Eurasian intellectual, moral, or inherent genetic superiority.
“>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

That is, Diamond includes China in his Eurasian grouping. Clearly the Chinese had the same resistance to disease as the Europeans. They were not decimated by plagues to the extent of the Americas.

Did they use this massive fleet for conquest?

Well, what is your point? Diamond said the West did that. He didn’t say that the desire to conquer was predetermined by geography. It was predetermined by the West being a brutal and ruthless culture that spent millenia learning how to conquer and enslave with any means at hand. It turns out that by the time of Columbus, they had a whole lot of means.
Why blame Diamond for saying that guns germs and steel gave the West the means to carry out their vicious program? As you say, GGS didn’t predetermine Chinese policy. So its not the guns that caused the policy. Its the guns that enforced the policy.

In these battles the few hundred conquistadors had many tens of thousands of local allies, without which the conquistadors would have been wiped out.

I have had this discussion elsewhere, before. Not saying you are wrong, but could you please give me a cite for these “allies”?

Please do what Diamond did not do, and work to actually understand the period in question.

That’s pretty insulting and broadbrush. I made a non-hostile comment, and you come at me with guns blazing. Are you calling me historically illiterate? Not going to make allies that way.
You are pretty vague about “the period in question”; but via proximity, I will take your comment to refer to South America. Last I looked the religious fanatic and gold hungry Spaniards slaughtered everyone and looted everything in sight. They either destroyed native temples or turned them into churches. They hunted down holy men as heretics. They burned writings and defaced stele. So what history am I supposed to understand? The guns and steel history of the Conquistadors? I think that POV reinforces Diamond.
Bottom line; I was only voicing my opinion that labeling Diamond a “determinist” is too simple. I have no desire to get into a deep argument about a popularized bit of research.

Posted by: john brewster | Sep 28 2023 20:55 utc | 519

Posted by: Roger | Sep 28 2023 19:26 utc | 253

Jared Diamond was a scientist, not a historian or a political economist or a sociologist or an anthropologist and it showed in his extremely simplistic notions that are at odds with actual historical facts.

—-
Can we please not make this a black and white discussion? I’m not comfortable saying Diamond is 100% right or 100% wrong. You say he is a scientist, as if that invalidates any ideas he may have had about sociology. Sorry, this is the same game the classical economists played against physicsts. (Even though we stole all your math and invented this bullshit called utility, you cannot call us out becaiuse you are not “ecomomists”.)

Of course geography plays a role, but also do many other factors. Europe’s ability to dominate the world was due to a very specific set of political economic as well as geographic circumstances.

Well, then we agree, and I don’t appreciate the hairs you are spitting here. Also, I don’t have an hour or even fifteen minutes to spend watching videos. Could you give me say five bullet points?
Let me tell you what i like about Diamond. (I read the book 25 years ago, so I don’t remember what I didn’t like.) As with the Wikipedia (yes, I know they are Deep State) quote, Diamond is pushing back against racism. Is that a bad thing?
The real “killer” argument of Diamond is “germs”. AFAIK, something like 90% of native Americans were killed off by European diseases in the century after 1492. Regions were just depopulated. Please tell me if this is more bad history.

The book attempts to explain why Eurasian and North African civilizations have survived and conquered others, while arguing against the idea that Eurasian hegemony is due to any form of Eurasian intellectual, moral, or inherent genetic superiority.
“>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guns,_Germs,_and_Steel

That is, Diamond includes China in his Eurasian grouping. Clearly the Chinese had the same resistance to disease as the Europeans. They were not decimated by plagues to the extent of the Americas.

Did they use this massive fleet for conquest?

Well, what is your point? Diamond said the West did that. He didn’t say that the desire to conquer was predetermined by geography. It was predetermined by the West being a brutal and ruthless culture that spent millenia learning how to conquer and enslave with any means at hand. It turns out that by the time of Columbus, they had a whole lot of means.
Why blame Diamond for saying that guns germs and steel gave the West the means to carry out their vicious program? As you say, GGS didn’t predetermine Chinese policy. So its not the guns that caused the policy. Its the guns that enforced the policy.

In these battles the few hundred conquistadors had many tens of thousands of local allies, without which the conquistadors would have been wiped out.

I have had this discussion elsewhere, before. Not saying you are wrong, but could you please give me a cite for these “allies”?

Please do what Diamond did not do, and work to actually understand the period in question.

That’s pretty insulting and broadbrush. I made a non-hostile comment, and you come at me with guns blazing. Are you calling me historically illiterate? Not going to make allies that way.
You are pretty vague about “the period in question”; but via proximity, I will take your comment to refer to South America. Last I looked the religious fanatic and gold hungry Spaniards slaughtered everyone and looted everything in sight. They either destroyed native temples or turned them into churches. They hunted down holy men as heretics. They burned writings and defaced stele. So what history am I supposed to understand? The guns and steel history of the Conquistadors? I think that POV reinforces Diamond.
Bottom line; I was only voicing my opinion that labeling Diamond a “determinist” is too simple. I have no desire to get into a deep argument about a popularized bit of research.

Posted by: john brewster | Sep 28 2023 20:55 utc | 520

Posted by: Nobody | Sep 28 2023 20:39 utc | 259
But doesn’t Revelations (and similar apocalyptic literature) suggest that the evil antagonist must temporarily prevail, in order for the ultimate good to triumph?

Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 22:54 utc | 521

Posted by: Nobody | Sep 28 2023 20:39 utc | 259
But doesn’t Revelations (and similar apocalyptic literature) suggest that the evil antagonist must temporarily prevail, in order for the ultimate good to triumph?

Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 22:54 utc | 522

Posted by: john brewster | Sep 28 2023 20:55 utc | 263
‘It was predetermined by the West being a brutal and ruthless culture that spent millenia learning how to conquer and enslave with any means at hand‘
Between what time periods (beyond the vague millennia), and what do you classify as Western? Beyond using it as a pejorative, does the term have any geographical boundaries?

Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 23:05 utc | 523

Posted by: john brewster | Sep 28 2023 20:55 utc | 263
‘It was predetermined by the West being a brutal and ruthless culture that spent millenia learning how to conquer and enslave with any means at hand‘
Between what time periods (beyond the vague millennia), and what do you classify as Western? Beyond using it as a pejorative, does the term have any geographical boundaries?

Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 23:05 utc | 524

“There is also the counter-example of the Chinese in the 15th century that put forth a massive fleet consisting of ships that dwarfed anything the European had even a couple of centuries later. Did they use this massive fleet for conquest? No they did not, they used it for discovery and the opening of relations with other nations.”
Posted by: Roger | Sep 28 2023 19:26 utc | 253
Vasco da Gama and Columbus were discovering and opening trade relations too. That’s how it starts. Trade treaties with natives, followed by conquest and colonization seem to be the way things always went after that. Not sure what happened to the massive Chinese fleet.

Posted by: dh | Sep 28 2023 23:09 utc | 525

“There is also the counter-example of the Chinese in the 15th century that put forth a massive fleet consisting of ships that dwarfed anything the European had even a couple of centuries later. Did they use this massive fleet for conquest? No they did not, they used it for discovery and the opening of relations with other nations.”
Posted by: Roger | Sep 28 2023 19:26 utc | 253
Vasco da Gama and Columbus were discovering and opening trade relations too. That’s how it starts. Trade treaties with natives, followed by conquest and colonization seem to be the way things always went after that. Not sure what happened to the massive Chinese fleet.

Posted by: dh | Sep 28 2023 23:09 utc | 526

@Posted by: dh | Sep 28 2023 23:09 utc | 270
China’s interactions with neighbours, outside the period of rule by the Mongols, tended to be on a “you ceremonially accept that I am big dog and you pay me tribute and we trade” basis. Very different to the West’s invasions and conquests, somewhat like current US neocolonialism with less greed. How a nation acts is as much driven by its internal dynamics than by its external environment/opportunities.
European civilization derived from the Roman Empire which was based upon the invasion of, and extraction of wealth from, other nations. Exacerbated by the competition between the differing kingdoms which drove an appetite for gaining access to others resources. This was not the history of China, which was an advanced irrigation-based centralized agricultural society, being more threatened by the northern tribes than threatening other nations. Its navy was left to rot because the central state decided the resources were needed to defend against the Mongols and others.
A good coverage of the Chinese navy in the early 15th century, the early 1400s. Vasco de Gama and Columbus set out in the late 1400s in ships much smaller than those in the Chinese fleet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4YEADagu0o

Posted by: Roger | Sep 29 2023 0:03 utc | 527

@Posted by: dh | Sep 28 2023 23:09 utc | 270
China’s interactions with neighbours, outside the period of rule by the Mongols, tended to be on a “you ceremonially accept that I am big dog and you pay me tribute and we trade” basis. Very different to the West’s invasions and conquests, somewhat like current US neocolonialism with less greed. How a nation acts is as much driven by its internal dynamics than by its external environment/opportunities.
European civilization derived from the Roman Empire which was based upon the invasion of, and extraction of wealth from, other nations. Exacerbated by the competition between the differing kingdoms which drove an appetite for gaining access to others resources. This was not the history of China, which was an advanced irrigation-based centralized agricultural society, being more threatened by the northern tribes than threatening other nations. Its navy was left to rot because the central state decided the resources were needed to defend against the Mongols and others.
A good coverage of the Chinese navy in the early 15th century, the early 1400s. Vasco de Gama and Columbus set out in the late 1400s in ships much smaller than those in the Chinese fleet.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4YEADagu0o

Posted by: Roger | Sep 29 2023 0:03 utc | 528

Roger | Sep 29 2023 0:03 utc | 271
I’m sure Admiral Zheng He and the Ming emperor had impeccable altruistic motives.

Posted by: dh | Sep 29 2023 0:20 utc | 529

Roger | Sep 29 2023 0:03 utc | 271
I’m sure Admiral Zheng He and the Ming emperor had impeccable altruistic motives.

Posted by: dh | Sep 29 2023 0:20 utc | 530

Gerry | Sep 27 2023 20:06 utc | 109
*** Extreme left, extreme right are not on opposite sides like a spectrum, it’s a circle. They both meet at totalitarianism. ***
Well, only if you start off with such a 2-dimensional circular mapping and are intent on fitting (or selectively adapting to fit) supposed ideologies into it.
Wonder who could have concocted such a model …. other than a western Political Establishment determined to promote and sustain the lie that — in contrast — its own camouflagedly dictatorial, corporate-owned, monopoly-capitalist facade masquerading as “democracy” was somehow “moderate”.

Posted by: Cynic | Sep 29 2023 0:29 utc | 531

Gerry | Sep 27 2023 20:06 utc | 109
*** Extreme left, extreme right are not on opposite sides like a spectrum, it’s a circle. They both meet at totalitarianism. ***
Well, only if you start off with such a 2-dimensional circular mapping and are intent on fitting (or selectively adapting to fit) supposed ideologies into it.
Wonder who could have concocted such a model …. other than a western Political Establishment determined to promote and sustain the lie that — in contrast — its own camouflagedly dictatorial, corporate-owned, monopoly-capitalist facade masquerading as “democracy” was somehow “moderate”.

Posted by: Cynic | Sep 29 2023 0:29 utc | 532

Shocked | Sep 27 2023 20:35 utc | 112
*** [until] … ICRC visits said camps and provides an official listing, and status, of all POW’s in Russian hands.***
Visits really to secrete missile target locators there?

Posted by: Cynic | Sep 29 2023 0:36 utc | 533

Shocked | Sep 27 2023 20:35 utc | 112
*** [until] … ICRC visits said camps and provides an official listing, and status, of all POW’s in Russian hands.***
Visits really to secrete missile target locators there?

Posted by: Cynic | Sep 29 2023 0:36 utc | 534

Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 23:05 utc | 269

Between what time periods (beyond the vague millennia), and what do you classify as Western? Beyond using it as a pejorative, does the term have any geographical boundaries?

—
Most people characterize the Egyptian and Babylonian civilizations as precursors of Western civilization. The West begins with Greece and Rome. Rome starting up around 500 BCE; classic Greece starting around 600 BCE.
The borders of the West begin by coinciding with those of the Roman Empire. After the fall of the Western Empire, the Eastern Empire went its own way, separating from “the West”. So, by 1500, the West’s borders were basically in Western Europe, as the Moslems owned the Middle East and North Africa.
—-
As for it being a pejortive, the context of the conversation was peaceful China versus warlike West. Here’s a short list of Western Wars in the period leading up to the Western breakout around 1500 CE:
Greece:
The Pelopenesian War
Alexander the Great’s Conquests
Rome:
500 years of conquering the Empire, beginning from one city in the boondocks of Italy and ending up owning the entire Mediterranean, plus Europe up to the Rhine/Danube line and large chunks of Asia Minor.
Catholic Church
Taking over the mantle of the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church was the major secular player from 500 CE until at least the time of Martin Luther. The minute they had any military power, they launched the crusades. The infamous 4th crusade sacked Constantinople, the capital of the Easter Roman Empire.
That’s my definition. Others are free to disagree.

Posted by: john brewster | Sep 29 2023 0:40 utc | 535

Posted by: Milites | Sep 28 2023 23:05 utc | 269

Between what time periods (beyond the vague millennia), and what do you classify as Western? Beyond using it as a pejorative, does the term have any geographical boundaries?

—
Most people characterize the Egyptian and Babylonian civilizations as precursors of Western civilization. The West begins with Greece and Rome. Rome starting up around 500 BCE; classic Greece starting around 600 BCE.
The borders of the West begin by coinciding with those of the Roman Empire. After the fall of the Western Empire, the Eastern Empire went its own way, separating from “the West”. So, by 1500, the West’s borders were basically in Western Europe, as the Moslems owned the Middle East and North Africa.
—-
As for it being a pejortive, the context of the conversation was peaceful China versus warlike West. Here’s a short list of Western Wars in the period leading up to the Western breakout around 1500 CE:
Greece:
The Pelopenesian War
Alexander the Great’s Conquests
Rome:
500 years of conquering the Empire, beginning from one city in the boondocks of Italy and ending up owning the entire Mediterranean, plus Europe up to the Rhine/Danube line and large chunks of Asia Minor.
Catholic Church
Taking over the mantle of the Roman Empire, the Catholic Church was the major secular player from 500 CE until at least the time of Martin Luther. The minute they had any military power, they launched the crusades. The infamous 4th crusade sacked Constantinople, the capital of the Easter Roman Empire.
That’s my definition. Others are free to disagree.

Posted by: john brewster | Sep 29 2023 0:40 utc | 536

Some videos for today.
Nazi honored in Canadian parliament part of SS unit known for its atrocities:
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/nazi-ss-unit:8
Ex-spokesman for Kiev regime military makes shocking revelations during prank interview:
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82:a
Russian rocket system takes aim at Kiev regime forces (another good RT frontline report):
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/russian-rocket-system:f
Missile that killed two Poles last November was Ukrainian (Warsaw has finally come out and admitted it):
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/p-:1
Russian airstrikes destroy Kiev regime ammunition and fuel depots located in Avdeevka’s industrial district:
https://odysee.com/@YuBratNavas:f/VID_20230928_211520_473:b
Russian drone strikes Swedish-supplied Stridsvagn 122 tank:
https://odysee.com/@Overthrown:6/Sequence-15_4:9
More Ukrainian conscripts surrender to Russian forces:
https://rutube.ru/video/0f8478cb084dcfca06b532e5ee46f1bc/
Russian anti-aircraft missile destroys US-made Switchblade drone:
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/TOR28:3

Posted by: Nate | Sep 29 2023 1:33 utc | 537

Some videos for today.
Nazi honored in Canadian parliament part of SS unit known for its atrocities:
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/nazi-ss-unit:8
Ex-spokesman for Kiev regime military makes shocking revelations during prank interview:
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D1%82:a
Russian rocket system takes aim at Kiev regime forces (another good RT frontline report):
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/russian-rocket-system:f
Missile that killed two Poles last November was Ukrainian (Warsaw has finally come out and admitted it):
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/p-:1
Russian airstrikes destroy Kiev regime ammunition and fuel depots located in Avdeevka’s industrial district:
https://odysee.com/@YuBratNavas:f/VID_20230928_211520_473:b
Russian drone strikes Swedish-supplied Stridsvagn 122 tank:
https://odysee.com/@Overthrown:6/Sequence-15_4:9
More Ukrainian conscripts surrender to Russian forces:
https://rutube.ru/video/0f8478cb084dcfca06b532e5ee46f1bc/
Russian anti-aircraft missile destroys US-made Switchblade drone:
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/TOR28:3

Posted by: Nate | Sep 29 2023 1:33 utc | 538

I’m a bit stunned at the anti-social science comments here. Are those of you who don’t like it ignorant? I’ve studied sociology, anthropology, psychology and cognitive science not as an expert but as an intense life-long study. Social science is a left/right brain discipline not the left brain science that provides specific yes/no answers to life’s problems. In fact even physics has gone into the realm of paradox. Let’s get out of our 19th century view of science–life is much more interesting and complex than a series of entries into a database–not that there is anything wrong with that–I’ve worked professionally with DBs and spreadsheets as a programmer.
I think social science helps us understand what is going on in the hyper-aggressive minds of US leaders. For starters, if you knew the social scene of these people in Washington and how they are unable to break the social conditioning of their in-group you would better understand why they are unable to face what people on this site regard as reality–they cannot adopt these views because it would be utterly unrealistic for them to do so as those of us who have studied these subjects can attest. I would not be as sure as I am of this had I not read extensively in the discipline.

Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Sep 29 2023 1:35 utc | 539

I’m a bit stunned at the anti-social science comments here. Are those of you who don’t like it ignorant? I’ve studied sociology, anthropology, psychology and cognitive science not as an expert but as an intense life-long study. Social science is a left/right brain discipline not the left brain science that provides specific yes/no answers to life’s problems. In fact even physics has gone into the realm of paradox. Let’s get out of our 19th century view of science–life is much more interesting and complex than a series of entries into a database–not that there is anything wrong with that–I’ve worked professionally with DBs and spreadsheets as a programmer.
I think social science helps us understand what is going on in the hyper-aggressive minds of US leaders. For starters, if you knew the social scene of these people in Washington and how they are unable to break the social conditioning of their in-group you would better understand why they are unable to face what people on this site regard as reality–they cannot adopt these views because it would be utterly unrealistic for them to do so as those of us who have studied these subjects can attest. I would not be as sure as I am of this had I not read extensively in the discipline.

Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Sep 29 2023 1:35 utc | 540

Milites @268
Are teenagers evil because they are not adults yet?

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 29 2023 2:21 utc | 541

Milites @268
Are teenagers evil because they are not adults yet?

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 29 2023 2:21 utc | 542

Has the frog been well and truly boiled?
Lavrov said “On the battlefield, means on the battlefield..”
Russian leadership openly talking about the defeat of NATO on the battlefield.
Note all official Russian press release about UK/US involvement in Storm Shadow Crimea (Russia proper) attacks – Jus ad bellum?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VScSEXRwUqQ

Posted by: Suresh | Sep 29 2023 3:56 utc | 543

Has the frog been well and truly boiled?
Lavrov said “On the battlefield, means on the battlefield..”
Russian leadership openly talking about the defeat of NATO on the battlefield.
Note all official Russian press release about UK/US involvement in Storm Shadow Crimea (Russia proper) attacks – Jus ad bellum?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VScSEXRwUqQ

Posted by: Suresh | Sep 29 2023 3:56 utc | 544

@Posted by: dh | Sep 29 2023 0:20 utc | 272
Your sarcastic ability argues for British heritage!

Posted by: Roger | Sep 29 2023 4:31 utc | 545

@Posted by: dh | Sep 29 2023 0:20 utc | 272
Your sarcastic ability argues for British heritage!

Posted by: Roger | Sep 29 2023 4:31 utc | 546

Private owners don’t own corporations
Posted by: Drapetomaniac | Sep 28 2023 18:28 utc | 248
What?
Moreover, the right to property is determined by law and maintained by political institutions.
This is not only politics, but is at the very heart of politics, unlike something as useless as whether it is presidential or parliamentary.
Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Sep 29 2023 1:35 utc | 277
Criticizing stupid bourgeois vulgar social science is not only not against social science, it is precisely to save it.

Posted by: Colin | Sep 29 2023 4:44 utc | 547

Private owners don’t own corporations
Posted by: Drapetomaniac | Sep 28 2023 18:28 utc | 248
What?
Moreover, the right to property is determined by law and maintained by political institutions.
This is not only politics, but is at the very heart of politics, unlike something as useless as whether it is presidential or parliamentary.
Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Sep 29 2023 1:35 utc | 277
Criticizing stupid bourgeois vulgar social science is not only not against social science, it is precisely to save it.

Posted by: Colin | Sep 29 2023 4:44 utc | 548

I don’t think the West has an innate and necessary tendency to be belligerent. Japan, for example, has historically transformed itself from a country that was virtually warless for centuries into an imperialist nation. But as due to the fact that the vast majority of imperialism is currently located in the West, this leads them to have a tendency to expand in the service of capital.

Posted by: Colin | Sep 29 2023 6:56 utc | 549

I don’t think the West has an innate and necessary tendency to be belligerent. Japan, for example, has historically transformed itself from a country that was virtually warless for centuries into an imperialist nation. But as due to the fact that the vast majority of imperialism is currently located in the West, this leads them to have a tendency to expand in the service of capital.

Posted by: Colin | Sep 29 2023 6:56 utc | 550

Some Ukrainian propagandists have taken RUMOD released video of surrendering Ukrainians, removed the logo and claim it’s surrendering Russians.
https://twitter.com/witte_sergei/status/1707429364806430874
Original video:
https://t.me/mod_russia/30890
Things must be really, really bad, that’s usually what failed assaults lead to. The end is zooming in for Nato and the lies are being ramped up.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 29 2023 8:34 utc | 551

Some Ukrainian propagandists have taken RUMOD released video of surrendering Ukrainians, removed the logo and claim it’s surrendering Russians.
https://twitter.com/witte_sergei/status/1707429364806430874
Original video:
https://t.me/mod_russia/30890
Things must be really, really bad, that’s usually what failed assaults lead to. The end is zooming in for Nato and the lies are being ramped up.

Posted by: unimperator | Sep 29 2023 8:34 utc | 552

Posted by: bubbles | Sep 28 2023 18:48 utc | 250
Simply capitalism as it has always been.
Corporate welfare makes it easy to understand why the state is just a bourgeois dictatorship.

Posted by: Colin | Sep 29 2023 10:24 utc | 553

Posted by: bubbles | Sep 28 2023 18:48 utc | 250
Simply capitalism as it has always been.
Corporate welfare makes it easy to understand why the state is just a bourgeois dictatorship.

Posted by: Colin | Sep 29 2023 10:24 utc | 554

“They need 10’s of millions of canon fodder, brainwashed like the current Ukrops. Yanks, Canuks and Europeans in our 5 eyed dystopia who have never realised they were made to harbour their grandparents enemies aren’t enough…”
Nazi spotted.
The venality and whining of Europeans knows no end.
You call America a “walled off garden” of pillage. It was your VP that just called Europe a garden and everyone else the jungle.

Posted by: line islands | Sep 29 2023 10:52 utc | 555

“They need 10’s of millions of canon fodder, brainwashed like the current Ukrops. Yanks, Canuks and Europeans in our 5 eyed dystopia who have never realised they were made to harbour their grandparents enemies aren’t enough…”
Nazi spotted.
The venality and whining of Europeans knows no end.
You call America a “walled off garden” of pillage. It was your VP that just called Europe a garden and everyone else the jungle.

Posted by: line islands | Sep 29 2023 10:52 utc | 556

“ Marxists see capitalism as a necessary stage of development in order to achieve socialism. So it is actually a good thing. Temporarily. 🙂
Posted by: Nobody | Sep 28 2023 20:39 utc | 259 “
Is the shoe beginning to drop yet for venerable and otherwise wise commentators?
Marxism or Anti-capitalism was created to make sure Capitalism , equally created , would exist as the new religion. Economics is that religion.
As Pepsi was invented to keep CocaCola a religion.
Sugar and water is that religion.
Anti communism and Communist, ditto.
Wokeness,gender fluidity and self righteousness, ditto.
Etc
Going back to the religions of Europe since the end of the Roman Empire.
Hell made Heaven believable.
Satanism/ Christianity was the fake new world order of the Middle Ages.
The only Independent grass roots development in the Collective Waste for a thousand years has been Scientific Method. That rocked the fairytales of these ages.
Science has therefore been controlled in the Collective Waste through Academia – the new cathedrals and bishops and the use of Patents to capture innovation to ‘shelf’ it!
The whole sanctions actions of the last half a century are about keeping a lid on knowledge from nations that refuse to yield to that Old Gauntlet that demands all thought and innovation belongs to these who have always considered themselves as the Owners of the Slaves – that’s the rest of us!
This is now manifest as the Chinese have better scientists and innovation, Russians and Iranians too, soon many others will rise- out of the several billions of Africans over the next century- the greatest minds will emerge from their thousands of tribes.
Actual geniuses that will rewrite Science textbooks as we once used to do, when sept education started raising the poor above the aristo ‘thinkers’ of the day.
It is jarring to find out that ones whole life’s beliefs are based on such lies, fairytales and gaslighting. Darwin when he, proved it with his collections and analysis – went into a self imposed purdah , afraid to announce it! Until other grassroots scientists had done the same and were not so scared of speaking the truth of the science.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Sep 29 2023 13:44 utc | 557

“ Marxists see capitalism as a necessary stage of development in order to achieve socialism. So it is actually a good thing. Temporarily. 🙂
Posted by: Nobody | Sep 28 2023 20:39 utc | 259 “
Is the shoe beginning to drop yet for venerable and otherwise wise commentators?
Marxism or Anti-capitalism was created to make sure Capitalism , equally created , would exist as the new religion. Economics is that religion.
As Pepsi was invented to keep CocaCola a religion.
Sugar and water is that religion.
Anti communism and Communist, ditto.
Wokeness,gender fluidity and self righteousness, ditto.
Etc
Going back to the religions of Europe since the end of the Roman Empire.
Hell made Heaven believable.
Satanism/ Christianity was the fake new world order of the Middle Ages.
The only Independent grass roots development in the Collective Waste for a thousand years has been Scientific Method. That rocked the fairytales of these ages.
Science has therefore been controlled in the Collective Waste through Academia – the new cathedrals and bishops and the use of Patents to capture innovation to ‘shelf’ it!
The whole sanctions actions of the last half a century are about keeping a lid on knowledge from nations that refuse to yield to that Old Gauntlet that demands all thought and innovation belongs to these who have always considered themselves as the Owners of the Slaves – that’s the rest of us!
This is now manifest as the Chinese have better scientists and innovation, Russians and Iranians too, soon many others will rise- out of the several billions of Africans over the next century- the greatest minds will emerge from their thousands of tribes.
Actual geniuses that will rewrite Science textbooks as we once used to do, when sept education started raising the poor above the aristo ‘thinkers’ of the day.
It is jarring to find out that ones whole life’s beliefs are based on such lies, fairytales and gaslighting. Darwin when he, proved it with his collections and analysis – went into a self imposed purdah , afraid to announce it! Until other grassroots scientists had done the same and were not so scared of speaking the truth of the science.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Sep 29 2023 13:44 utc | 558

@Posted by: dh | Sep 29 2023 0:20 utc | 272
Your sarcastic ability argues for British heritage!
Posted by: Roger | Sep 29 2023 4:31 utc | 280
I’m a Scots/French cross. But I did go to UK grammar school for a few years. I guess that explains it.
I’ve been reading up on the Zheng He fleet. Seems the size was intended to impress small countries. Much like the US does with huge aircraft carriers. It worked. Tributes poured into the Ming treasury. There was quite a nasty incident in Sumatra on one of the trips.

Posted by: dh | Sep 29 2023 14:23 utc | 559

@Posted by: dh | Sep 29 2023 0:20 utc | 272
Your sarcastic ability argues for British heritage!
Posted by: Roger | Sep 29 2023 4:31 utc | 280
I’m a Scots/French cross. But I did go to UK grammar school for a few years. I guess that explains it.
I’ve been reading up on the Zheng He fleet. Seems the size was intended to impress small countries. Much like the US does with huge aircraft carriers. It worked. Tributes poured into the Ming treasury. There was quite a nasty incident in Sumatra on one of the trips.

Posted by: dh | Sep 29 2023 14:23 utc | 560

279.. Borrell said Russia would be beaten on the battlefield…quid pro quo…..

Posted by: Jo | Sep 29 2023 15:49 utc | 561

279.. Borrell said Russia would be beaten on the battlefield…quid pro quo…..

Posted by: Jo | Sep 29 2023 15:49 utc | 562

@line islands (285)
Please explain what DunGroanin said that comes off as ‘Nazi’. Or at least tell us your definition of ‘Nazi’. And leave Josep Borrell out of this – we don’t like him either.
If you call DunGroanin a Nazi just for saying no to US hegemony in Europe, then shut up Gringo!

Posted by: joey_n | Sep 29 2023 22:38 utc | 563

@line islands (285)
Please explain what DunGroanin said that comes off as ‘Nazi’. Or at least tell us your definition of ‘Nazi’. And leave Josep Borrell out of this – we don’t like him either.
If you call DunGroanin a Nazi just for saying no to US hegemony in Europe, then shut up Gringo!

Posted by: joey_n | Sep 29 2023 22:38 utc | 564

Posted by: Colin | Sep 29 2023 4:44 utc | 281
I agree with your excellent post. I have found it is best for.me to scroll past every Drapetomaniac post. Just pure Ayn Randian “Objectivist” nonsense. But I’m glad you didn’t just scroll it and took the time to address the nonsense. Concisely done.

Posted by: Wisco | Sep 30 2023 3:44 utc | 565

Posted by: Colin | Sep 29 2023 4:44 utc | 281
I agree with your excellent post. I have found it is best for.me to scroll past every Drapetomaniac post. Just pure Ayn Randian “Objectivist” nonsense. But I’m glad you didn’t just scroll it and took the time to address the nonsense. Concisely done.

Posted by: Wisco | Sep 30 2023 3:44 utc | 566

I’ve been reading up on the Zheng He fleet. Seems the size was intended to impress small countries. Much like the US does with huge aircraft carriers. It worked. Tributes poured into the Ming treasury. There was quite a nasty incident in Sumatra on one of the trips.
Posted by: dh | Sep 29 2023 14:23 utc | 287

The tribute system should more accurately be known as the tribute trade system. There was mutual exchange, not one-sided exploitation. In fact, the Ming court often has to restrict the number of tribute missions because they were ruinous to the state coffers instead of filling them. The so-called tribute states, on the other hand, were often hungry for tribute missions as it gave them access to Chinese goods that they cannot produce themselves. As the “top dog”, Ming also has an obligation to demonstrate its prosperity and reward tributary states for (nominal) loyalty. Of course, such conceptions of generosity and mutual benefit are unknown to rapacious Westerners, so Westerners can only keep thinking of an angle where the Ming court was profiting off of the tribute system.
Excerpts from The Structure and Transformation of the Ming Tribute Trade System by Gakusho Nakajima
“the frequency of the tributes from Japan was restricted to once every ten years from 1453 onwards”
“only the four countries of Champa , Shiam, Meleka and Java continued to send tribute, although the Ming court restricted the frequency of tributes of these four countries to once every three years until the mid-fifteenth century”
“In order to obtain Chinese goods exported to Central Asia, he aggressively extended tribute trade with the Ming, and the number of men on each mission of the Oirads, which was only 267 in 1437, surged to over 2000 in the 1440s and reached over 2500 in 1448, of which 752 were occupied by Muslim merchants.”
“the Ming court restricted the frequency of Rykyuan tribute trade, which had been every year, to once every two years in 1474”
“the Ming court intended to curtail the tribute trade with Central Asia and restricted the frequency of tributes of the Hami to once a year, and that of Ilibalik and Turfan to once three or five years in 1465”
“the Ming court restricted the frequency of tributes by Tibetan sects and tribes to once every three years and restrained the number of missions to 150 men or fewer in 1470, but in fact these regulations seem not to have been necessarily adhered to”

Posted by: All Under Heaven | Sep 30 2023 23:32 utc | 567

I’ve been reading up on the Zheng He fleet. Seems the size was intended to impress small countries. Much like the US does with huge aircraft carriers. It worked. Tributes poured into the Ming treasury. There was quite a nasty incident in Sumatra on one of the trips.
Posted by: dh | Sep 29 2023 14:23 utc | 287

The tribute system should more accurately be known as the tribute trade system. There was mutual exchange, not one-sided exploitation. In fact, the Ming court often has to restrict the number of tribute missions because they were ruinous to the state coffers instead of filling them. The so-called tribute states, on the other hand, were often hungry for tribute missions as it gave them access to Chinese goods that they cannot produce themselves. As the “top dog”, Ming also has an obligation to demonstrate its prosperity and reward tributary states for (nominal) loyalty. Of course, such conceptions of generosity and mutual benefit are unknown to rapacious Westerners, so Westerners can only keep thinking of an angle where the Ming court was profiting off of the tribute system.
Excerpts from The Structure and Transformation of the Ming Tribute Trade System by Gakusho Nakajima
“the frequency of the tributes from Japan was restricted to once every ten years from 1453 onwards”
“only the four countries of Champa , Shiam, Meleka and Java continued to send tribute, although the Ming court restricted the frequency of tributes of these four countries to once every three years until the mid-fifteenth century”
“In order to obtain Chinese goods exported to Central Asia, he aggressively extended tribute trade with the Ming, and the number of men on each mission of the Oirads, which was only 267 in 1437, surged to over 2000 in the 1440s and reached over 2500 in 1448, of which 752 were occupied by Muslim merchants.”
“the Ming court restricted the frequency of Rykyuan tribute trade, which had been every year, to once every two years in 1474”
“the Ming court intended to curtail the tribute trade with Central Asia and restricted the frequency of tributes of the Hami to once a year, and that of Ilibalik and Turfan to once three or five years in 1465”
“the Ming court restricted the frequency of tributes by Tibetan sects and tribes to once every three years and restrained the number of missions to 150 men or fewer in 1470, but in fact these regulations seem not to have been necessarily adhered to”

Posted by: All Under Heaven | Sep 30 2023 23:32 utc | 568

In my earlier comment, when I said “Ming also has an obligation to demonstrate its prosperity” and did not offer further explanation, I realized that the statement won’t be intuitive to Westerners (including rootless whitewashed Chinese diasporas).
If you have lived for extended periods of time in a predominantly Chinese community, you will find that on trips to the restaurants, the Chinese will fight to pay the bill. Yes, you read that right. They don’t try to pawn off the responsibility to someone else. Even if a person is struggling financially, that person will still make a show of trying to pay the whole bill. If you can understand that age-old Chinese mindset, the mindset of generosity and taking care of your friends and family, then perhaps you can sense the weight of duty and obligation that compelled the Ming court’s charitable treatment of “tributary” states.

Posted by: All Under Heaven | Sep 30 2023 23:49 utc | 569

In my earlier comment, when I said “Ming also has an obligation to demonstrate its prosperity” and did not offer further explanation, I realized that the statement won’t be intuitive to Westerners (including rootless whitewashed Chinese diasporas).
If you have lived for extended periods of time in a predominantly Chinese community, you will find that on trips to the restaurants, the Chinese will fight to pay the bill. Yes, you read that right. They don’t try to pawn off the responsibility to someone else. Even if a person is struggling financially, that person will still make a show of trying to pay the whole bill. If you can understand that age-old Chinese mindset, the mindset of generosity and taking care of your friends and family, then perhaps you can sense the weight of duty and obligation that compelled the Ming court’s charitable treatment of “tributary” states.

Posted by: All Under Heaven | Sep 30 2023 23:49 utc | 570

Different emperors had different policies. In fact the Ming were a lot less expansionist than the Han or Tang dynasties had been. The Qing on the other hand maintained a very expansionist policy. They invaded (re-invaded) Korea, conquered the Mongols and exerted control over most of Central Asia.

Posted by: dh | Oct 1 2023 0:09 utc | 571

Different emperors had different policies. In fact the Ming were a lot less expansionist than the Han or Tang dynasties had been. The Qing on the other hand maintained a very expansionist policy. They invaded (re-invaded) Korea, conquered the Mongols and exerted control over most of Central Asia.

Posted by: dh | Oct 1 2023 0:09 utc | 572

Different emperors had different policies. In fact the Ming were a lot less expansionist than the Han or Tang dynasties had been. The Qing on the other hand maintained a very expansionist policy. They invaded (re-invaded) Korea, conquered the Mongols and exerted control over most of Central Asia.
Posted by: dh | Oct 1 2023 0:09 utc | 293

Funny that Korea is brought up. Qing’s treatment of Korea is directly related to Joseon Korea’s relationship with Ming. Ming had exhausted funds and troops to defend Joseon from Japanese invasion so the bond between the two courts run deep. When Ming fell to the Qing, Joseon refused to recognize Qing’s authority over China and persisted in recognizing the Ming court. Another issue is that with satellite states such as Joseon, they sometimes start getting too big for their britches. Joseon considered itself the true inheritor of the Ming dynasty. This situation is somewhat, though not entirely, akin to a rebellious province refusing to recognize PRC authority and instead swearing fealty to the ROC. One final factor is the Manchus’ heartland being located right at the northern border of Joseon. If you have a state bordering your heartland that not only refuses to recognize your claim over China but consider you an usurper and itself the true successor dynasty of China, conflict is inevitable.
Excerpts from https://koreanhistory.humspace.ucla.edu/items/show/33
“After the second Manchu victory in 1636, Joseon was forced to recognize the Manchu-ruled Qing dynasty as the new hegemon in the tributary system.”
“Despite having severed ties with the former Ming empire and formally recognized the Qing Manchus as the superior state within the tributary system the regard with which the Joseon dynasty held the Manchus did not change from what it had been prior to the Manchu conquest. Joseon looked down on the peoples north of their territory and considered them barbarians. Even after the Manchu’s rise to power in China, Joseon still held the lost Ming empire with great reverence. Alongside resentment toward Qing, a great cultural affinity developed for Ming culture, revealed in subtle things such as how Joseon officials privately continued to use the Ming calendar (Kallender 14). Joseon’s culture was always heavily influenced by Chinese elite culture, but with actual China nor ruled by the “barbaric” Manchus, Joseon began to consider itself the only true remaining example of this Chinese-oriented culture in Asia. Work by scholars such as Adam Bohnet gives us great insights into Joseon’s efforts to safeguard this culture.”

Posted by: All Under Heaven | Oct 1 2023 3:07 utc | 573

Different emperors had different policies. In fact the Ming were a lot less expansionist than the Han or Tang dynasties had been. The Qing on the other hand maintained a very expansionist policy. They invaded (re-invaded) Korea, conquered the Mongols and exerted control over most of Central Asia.
Posted by: dh | Oct 1 2023 0:09 utc | 293

Funny that Korea is brought up. Qing’s treatment of Korea is directly related to Joseon Korea’s relationship with Ming. Ming had exhausted funds and troops to defend Joseon from Japanese invasion so the bond between the two courts run deep. When Ming fell to the Qing, Joseon refused to recognize Qing’s authority over China and persisted in recognizing the Ming court. Another issue is that with satellite states such as Joseon, they sometimes start getting too big for their britches. Joseon considered itself the true inheritor of the Ming dynasty. This situation is somewhat, though not entirely, akin to a rebellious province refusing to recognize PRC authority and instead swearing fealty to the ROC. One final factor is the Manchus’ heartland being located right at the northern border of Joseon. If you have a state bordering your heartland that not only refuses to recognize your claim over China but consider you an usurper and itself the true successor dynasty of China, conflict is inevitable.
Excerpts from https://koreanhistory.humspace.ucla.edu/items/show/33
“After the second Manchu victory in 1636, Joseon was forced to recognize the Manchu-ruled Qing dynasty as the new hegemon in the tributary system.”
“Despite having severed ties with the former Ming empire and formally recognized the Qing Manchus as the superior state within the tributary system the regard with which the Joseon dynasty held the Manchus did not change from what it had been prior to the Manchu conquest. Joseon looked down on the peoples north of their territory and considered them barbarians. Even after the Manchu’s rise to power in China, Joseon still held the lost Ming empire with great reverence. Alongside resentment toward Qing, a great cultural affinity developed for Ming culture, revealed in subtle things such as how Joseon officials privately continued to use the Ming calendar (Kallender 14). Joseon’s culture was always heavily influenced by Chinese elite culture, but with actual China nor ruled by the “barbaric” Manchus, Joseon began to consider itself the only true remaining example of this Chinese-oriented culture in Asia. Work by scholars such as Adam Bohnet gives us great insights into Joseon’s efforts to safeguard this culture.”

Posted by: All Under Heaven | Oct 1 2023 3:07 utc | 574

The Han, Tang, Qing, etc. “expansionistic” policies is the direct result of the ancient pastoralist-agriculturist conflict. Political marriages, border walls, and, if all else fails, military expeditions are the tools by which Chinese dynasties sought to mitigate the constant threat of nomadic invasions.
Another barfly has already commented on how the Ming dynasty let its treasure fleets rot away because it decided that state resources were better spent on defending against nomad invasions from the north. Manchus being a semi-nomadic people are well aware of the threat that other steppe nomad groups pose to their rule of China, hence the Manchus’ aggressive policies.
A bit more on the root of the conflict: The south of China is where settled peoples, i.e., agriculturists, live and the north is the home of steppe nomads. When changes in rainfall patterns cause grasslands to recede, steppe nomads inevitably descend south in search of better pastures to feed their herds. For nomads, the land’s value is derived from its ability to feed their herds. The people who occupy and farm the land has little value as they’re just extra mouths to feed (for agriculturists, people are a valuable labor force), so nomads didn’t mind depopulating the southern lands. Small sedentary farming nations were no match against a highly mobile force, as a nomad nation’s entire military might can be easily brought to bear against a single target (incidentally, steppe nomad nations bear similarity to the Euro-American naval empires that are spiritual continuations of the vikings in this aspect). The agriculturist nations realized that only by pooling their resources together can they win against the nomad threat. A united front also allows each nation to mobilize a smaller portion of its population, minimizing disruption to agricultural activities. This was the seed of the Chinese desire to see a united land and the Chinese reverence for a strong central authority.

Posted by: All Under Heaven | Oct 1 2023 3:55 utc | 575

The Han, Tang, Qing, etc. “expansionistic” policies is the direct result of the ancient pastoralist-agriculturist conflict. Political marriages, border walls, and, if all else fails, military expeditions are the tools by which Chinese dynasties sought to mitigate the constant threat of nomadic invasions.
Another barfly has already commented on how the Ming dynasty let its treasure fleets rot away because it decided that state resources were better spent on defending against nomad invasions from the north. Manchus being a semi-nomadic people are well aware of the threat that other steppe nomad groups pose to their rule of China, hence the Manchus’ aggressive policies.
A bit more on the root of the conflict: The south of China is where settled peoples, i.e., agriculturists, live and the north is the home of steppe nomads. When changes in rainfall patterns cause grasslands to recede, steppe nomads inevitably descend south in search of better pastures to feed their herds. For nomads, the land’s value is derived from its ability to feed their herds. The people who occupy and farm the land has little value as they’re just extra mouths to feed (for agriculturists, people are a valuable labor force), so nomads didn’t mind depopulating the southern lands. Small sedentary farming nations were no match against a highly mobile force, as a nomad nation’s entire military might can be easily brought to bear against a single target (incidentally, steppe nomad nations bear similarity to the Euro-American naval empires that are spiritual continuations of the vikings in this aspect). The agriculturist nations realized that only by pooling their resources together can they win against the nomad threat. A united front also allows each nation to mobilize a smaller portion of its population, minimizing disruption to agricultural activities. This was the seed of the Chinese desire to see a united land and the Chinese reverence for a strong central authority.

Posted by: All Under Heaven | Oct 1 2023 3:55 utc | 576

Well, of course not. That is in the realm of social sciences, which never “hardened up” like the physical sciences did a couple centuries back.
Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 28 2023 14:07 utc | 232
Because the social sciences are different from the physical sciences. They reference humans, and humans are reflective, meaning they think on things, are cognizant of their surroundings, and search for deeper meaning of any given situation. Unlike ants, or most other creatures, who act on instinct alone, or natural phenomena which simply act in its own state. Humans change, making the social sciences unpredictable.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:28 utc | 577

Well, of course not. That is in the realm of social sciences, which never “hardened up” like the physical sciences did a couple centuries back.
Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 28 2023 14:07 utc | 232
Because the social sciences are different from the physical sciences. They reference humans, and humans are reflective, meaning they think on things, are cognizant of their surroundings, and search for deeper meaning of any given situation. Unlike ants, or most other creatures, who act on instinct alone, or natural phenomena which simply act in its own state. Humans change, making the social sciences unpredictable.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:28 utc | 578

I think a few hundred thousand dead people would disagree. And some not-dead-yet as well.
Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 28 2023 10:09 utc | 216
Still small potatoes compared to what real imperialism did. And I’m talking about post-Cold War US policy.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:31 utc | 579

I think a few hundred thousand dead people would disagree. And some not-dead-yet as well.
Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 28 2023 10:09 utc | 216
Still small potatoes compared to what real imperialism did. And I’m talking about post-Cold War US policy.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:31 utc | 580

Maybe knowing that both the Roman and British Empires were multiracial won’t be too much work for you?
Posted by: Colin | Sep 28 2023 11:47 utc | 221
I hope you know that there was a clear distinction between citizens of those empires and noncitizens. I’m sure you do Colin the Undergrad, smart guy that you are.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:37 utc | 581

Maybe knowing that both the Roman and British Empires were multiracial won’t be too much work for you?
Posted by: Colin | Sep 28 2023 11:47 utc | 221
I hope you know that there was a clear distinction between citizens of those empires and noncitizens. I’m sure you do Colin the Undergrad, smart guy that you are.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:37 utc | 582

I am a Maoist
Posted by: Colin | Sep 28 2023 9:08 utc | 211
An unironic Maoist should be working on a commune instead of posting to chats on the Internet using a private electronic device. You’re a fraud Colin the Undergrad, total fraud.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:42 utc | 583

I am a Maoist
Posted by: Colin | Sep 28 2023 9:08 utc | 211
An unironic Maoist should be working on a commune instead of posting to chats on the Internet using a private electronic device. You’re a fraud Colin the Undergrad, total fraud.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:42 utc | 584

All Under Heaven | Oct 1 2023 3:55 utc | 295
So we can say that conflict in China was due to the need for food and security. That sounds remarkably similar to European history.

Posted by: dh | Oct 1 2023 16:52 utc | 585

All Under Heaven | Oct 1 2023 3:55 utc | 295
So we can say that conflict in China was due to the need for food and security. That sounds remarkably similar to European history.

Posted by: dh | Oct 1 2023 16:52 utc | 586

Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:28 utc | 296
The multiracial nature of the empire and the racial hierarchy are not only not contradictory, they are complementary, as I said earlier.
Citizenship is one form of this stratification.
This is despite the fact that citizenship was in fact later universally granted in the Roman and British Empires.
Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:42 utc | 299
Glad you even think there were no researchers in Mao era China LMFAO.

Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 15:49 utc | 587

Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:28 utc | 296
The multiracial nature of the empire and the racial hierarchy are not only not contradictory, they are complementary, as I said earlier.
Citizenship is one form of this stratification.
This is despite the fact that citizenship was in fact later universally granted in the Roman and British Empires.
Posted by: James M. | Oct 1 2023 9:42 utc | 299
Glad you even think there were no researchers in Mao era China LMFAO.

Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 15:49 utc | 588

The multiracial nature of the empire and the racial hierarchy are not only not contradictory, they are complementary, as I said earlier.
Citizenship is one form of this stratification.
This is despite the fact that citizenship was in fact later universally granted in the Roman and British Empires.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 15:49 utc | 294
Colin the Undergrad, or Colin the Self-Loathing Maoist, when and how did the Roman Empire fall? It was after the universally granted citizenship. When the Roman Empire was no longer Roman, it was also no longer an empire. As for the British, have you ever read Kipling in your course of study? British attitudes toward non-British ethnicities during the British imperial stage? You should look into that and then get back to me.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 4 2023 0:58 utc | 589

The multiracial nature of the empire and the racial hierarchy are not only not contradictory, they are complementary, as I said earlier.
Citizenship is one form of this stratification.
This is despite the fact that citizenship was in fact later universally granted in the Roman and British Empires.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 15:49 utc | 294
Colin the Undergrad, or Colin the Self-Loathing Maoist, when and how did the Roman Empire fall? It was after the universally granted citizenship. When the Roman Empire was no longer Roman, it was also no longer an empire. As for the British, have you ever read Kipling in your course of study? British attitudes toward non-British ethnicities during the British imperial stage? You should look into that and then get back to me.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 4 2023 0:58 utc | 590

Glad you even think there were no researchers in Mao era China LMFAO.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 15:49 utc | 294
Researchers sure, private ownership, not so much. How do you do your research? On a laptop, smart phone. school library computer?
What’s funny is that whatever device you are using was probably made by exploited poor Chinese workers in a factory whose fathers and grandfathers were probably loyal to Mao and Maoism, while you live in the decadent West going to university paid for by your bourgeoisie parents declaring yourself to be a Maoist.
Oh the irony.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 4 2023 1:08 utc | 591

Glad you even think there were no researchers in Mao era China LMFAO.
Posted by: Colin | Oct 2 2023 15:49 utc | 294
Researchers sure, private ownership, not so much. How do you do your research? On a laptop, smart phone. school library computer?
What’s funny is that whatever device you are using was probably made by exploited poor Chinese workers in a factory whose fathers and grandfathers were probably loyal to Mao and Maoism, while you live in the decadent West going to university paid for by your bourgeoisie parents declaring yourself to be a Maoist.
Oh the irony.

Posted by: James M. | Oct 4 2023 1:08 utc | 592

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