Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 21, 2023
How Will The Biden Administration Cope With Its Loss In Ukraine?

While this piece will touch on the war in Ukraine it is more about the U.S., and the Biden administration, and how they will cope with their  defeat in their war on Russia. Please keep that in mind when commentating.

Washington's moment of recognizing the defeat in Ukraine, and its consequences, has yet to arrive.

In his latest piece (archived) Seymour Hersh reports on the state of the war and of significant differences of opinion between the U.S. intelligence services:

There are significant elements in the American intelligence community, relying on field reports and technical intelligence, who believe that the demoralized Ukraine army has given up on the possibility of overcoming the heavily mined three-tier Russian defense lines and taking the war to Crimea and the four oblasts seized and annexed by Russia. The reality is that Volodymyr Zelensky’s battered army no longer has any chance of a victory.

The war continues, I have been told by an official with access to current intelligence, because Zelensky insists that it must. There is no discussion in his headquarters or in the Biden White House of a ceasefire and no interest in talks that could lead to an end to the slaughter. “It’s all lies,” the official said, speaking of the Ukrainian claims of incremental progress in the offensive that has suffered staggering losses, while gaining ground in a few scattered areas that the Ukrainian military measures in meters per week.

The American intelligence official I spoke with spent the early years of his career working against Soviet aggression and spying has respect for Putin’s intellect but contempt for his decision to go to war with Ukraine and to initiate the death and destruction that war brings. But, as he told me, “The war is over. Russia has won. There is no Ukrainian offensive anymore, but the White House and the American media have to keep the lie going.

“The truth is if the Ukrainian army is ordered to continue the offensive, the army would mutiny. The soldiers aren’t willing to die any more, but this doesn’t fit the B.S. that is being authored by the Biden White House.”

The differences between the current CIA and the more neoconned Defense Intelligence Agency extend to their view on China:

A byproduct of the Biden administration’s neocon hostility to Russia and China—exemplified by the remarks of Secretary of State Tony Blinken, who has repeatedly stated that he will not currently countenance a ceasefire in Ukraine—has been a significant split in the intelligence community. One casualty are the secret National Intelligence Estimates that have delineated the parameters of American foreign policy for decades. Some key offices in the CIA have refused, in many cases, to participate in the NIE process because of profound political disagreement with the administration’s aggressive foreign policy. One recent failure involved a planned NIE that dealt with the outcome of a Chinese attack on Taiwan.

I have reported for many weeks on the longstanding disagreement between the CIA and other elements of the intelligence community on the prognosis of the current war in the Ukraine. CIA analysts have consistently been far more skeptical than their counterparts at the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) on the prospect for a Ukraine success. The American media has ignored the dispute, but the London-headquartered Economist, whose well-informed reporters do not get bylines, has not.

The DIA is still saying that the Ukrainian army has a chance, a small one though, to break through the Russian lines. The White House still seems to believe in that. The CIA knows that the Ukraine is done.

Alastair Crooke, in a talk (vid) with Judge Napolitano, says that the moment of truth will only arrive in November.

But what will happen when everyone recognizes and acknowledges, if silently, that the war on Russia has failed?

Michael Brenner argues that the US Can’t Deal With Defeat:

Ukraine, today, has suffered huge losses of even greater (proportional) magnitude [than the German Wehrmacht in the Battle of Kursk], without achieving any significant territorial gains, unable even to reach the first layer of the Surovikin Line. That will clear the road to the Dnieper and beyond for the 600,000 strong Russian army equipped with weaponry the equal of what the West has given Ukraine. Hence, Moscow is poised to exploit its decisive advantage to the point where it can dictate terms to Kiev, Washington, Brussels et al.

The Biden administration has made no plans for such an eventuality, nor have its obedient European governments. Their divorce from reality will make this state of affairs all the more stunning — and galling. Bereft of ideas, they will flounder. How they will react is unknowable. We can say with certainty one thing: the collective West, and especially the U.S., will have suffered a grave defeat. Coping with that truth will become the main order of business.

Here is a menu of options for handling it:

Redefine what is meant by defeat, victory, failure, success, loss, gain. There is a new narrative that is scripted to stress these talking points: …

This narrative already has been given an airing in speeches by U.S. Secretary of State Antony Blinken, National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Acting Deputy Secretary of State Victoria Nuland. Its target audience is the American public; nobody outside the Collective West buys it, though — whether Washington has registered that fact of diplomatic life or not.

Retroactively Scale Back the Goals & Stakes

Cultivate Amnesia

Next: China

It is likely that the administration will use all four options to make the pain and memory of defeat go away. Declare victory over Russia  because Russia was stopped at the border with Poland. Then forget about all the details and consequences and move towards war on China.

That could end catastrophically.

The focal shift from Russia in Europe to China in Asia is less a mechanism for coping with defeat than the pathological reaction of a country that, feeling a gnawing sense of diminishing prowess, can manage to do nothing more than try one final fling at proving to itself that it still has the right stuff — since living without that exalted sense of self is intolerable.

The U.S. was fortunate, in the case of Vietnam, that the United States’ dominant position in the world outside of the Soviet Bloc and the PRC allowed it to maintain respect, status and influence.

Things have now changed, though. The U.S. relative strength in all domains is weaker, strong centrifugal forces around the globe are producing a dispersion of power, will and outlook among other states. The BRICs phenomenon is the concrete embodiment of that reality.

Hence, the prerogatives of the United States are narrowing, its ability to shape the global system in conformity with its ideas and interests are under mounting challenge, and premiums are being placed on diplomacy of an order that seems beyond its present aptitudes.

The U.S. is confounded.

Major offices in the CIA, according to Hersh, have recognized the danger of such plans. It may well be the reason why the CIA's informal spokesmen, David Ignatius, and others wrote that Biden should step down.

If he doesn't the neoconservatives around him will have a great incentive to move on China as fast as possible. As Biden will have difficulties in winning next year's election he needs some objective that can unify the country. A war that he can claim the U.S. will win is one. Some hostile naval exchanges with China will follow.

(Please don't use the comments of this thread for details from the war in Ukraine. The current thread for such is here.)

Comments

@dandante | Sep 21 2023 23:40 utc | 141

In his Nord Stream piece, he, or one of his sources, got Jens Stoltenberg confused with his father. That piece turned out to be (possibly) wrong.
I think Hersh needs to find younger people in the intelligence community to talk to.

Thorvald Stoltenberg, Jens’ father was Norwegian foreign minister during the NATO bombing of Serbia.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 22 2023 15:26 utc | 601

@dandante | Sep 21 2023 23:40 utc | 141

In his Nord Stream piece, he, or one of his sources, got Jens Stoltenberg confused with his father. That piece turned out to be (possibly) wrong.
I think Hersh needs to find younger people in the intelligence community to talk to.

Thorvald Stoltenberg, Jens’ father was Norwegian foreign minister during the NATO bombing of Serbia.

Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 22 2023 15:26 utc | 602

The US will transition of primary responsibility for the war in Ukraine from the US to Europe. We stand by Ukraine, of course, but this is fundamentally a European problem.
We will support, NATO, of course in its efforts to deter Russian aggression and wish our European partners success in their ongoing support of Ukraine. Within the US we will need to reallocate some of our resources in the face of ongoing challenges. Our planned increases in weapons production in support of Ukraine will continue undiminished.
You can drive a truck through that one.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 22 2023 15:27 utc | 603

The US will transition of primary responsibility for the war in Ukraine from the US to Europe. We stand by Ukraine, of course, but this is fundamentally a European problem.
We will support, NATO, of course in its efforts to deter Russian aggression and wish our European partners success in their ongoing support of Ukraine. Within the US we will need to reallocate some of our resources in the face of ongoing challenges. Our planned increases in weapons production in support of Ukraine will continue undiminished.
You can drive a truck through that one.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 22 2023 15:27 utc | 604

Posted by: CitizenSmith | Sep 22 2023 14:56 utc | 293
These people would prefer to start all out war rather than have their crimes made public and be forced to face a true and impartial justice.
<= look at my comment at 162 the global corporations that profit from war have blackmail or blackball power over most elected officials.. in nearly every nation state in the western world, including the USA, Britain, France, Poland, etc. Those international corporations have a lot of dollars and economic power to loose if Russia takes control of Ukraine or even if Russia, or economic interest, is allowed to compete against them. IMO, the elected politicians have little realist choice when it comes to prosecuting war in Ukraine. Unless the multi national corporations, their leadership, their bankers and their relations with government officials and their investments in, and dependencies based on, events in Ukraine are exposed to the public; you will not likely see the leaders in government backing down. disclosure ended the Viet Nam war that's why the media is so strongly controlled now. Many multinational corporations, banks, venture capital funds, and the governments, these entities control, have either themselves invested heavily in Ukraine or have profits vs losses dependent on the outcome in Ukraine. Don't blame the government or its officials, many of them are victims, look to the reason the government officials are forced to prosecute the war in Ukraine even when the populations they govern are strongly against doing anything in a foreign theater.

Posted by: snake | Sep 22 2023 15:33 utc | 605

Posted by: CitizenSmith | Sep 22 2023 14:56 utc | 293
These people would prefer to start all out war rather than have their crimes made public and be forced to face a true and impartial justice.
<= look at my comment at 162 the global corporations that profit from war have blackmail or blackball power over most elected officials.. in nearly every nation state in the western world, including the USA, Britain, France, Poland, etc. Those international corporations have a lot of dollars and economic power to loose if Russia takes control of Ukraine or even if Russia, or economic interest, is allowed to compete against them. IMO, the elected politicians have little realist choice when it comes to prosecuting war in Ukraine. Unless the multi national corporations, their leadership, their bankers and their relations with government officials and their investments in, and dependencies based on, events in Ukraine are exposed to the public; you will not likely see the leaders in government backing down. disclosure ended the Viet Nam war that's why the media is so strongly controlled now. Many multinational corporations, banks, venture capital funds, and the governments, these entities control, have either themselves invested heavily in Ukraine or have profits vs losses dependent on the outcome in Ukraine. Don't blame the government or its officials, many of them are victims, look to the reason the government officials are forced to prosecute the war in Ukraine even when the populations they govern are strongly against doing anything in a foreign theater.

Posted by: snake | Sep 22 2023 15:33 utc | 606

Don’t blame the government or its officials, many of them are victims
Posted by: snake | Sep 22 2023 15:33 utc | 305
I get it. It’s ultimately a government of billionaire oligarchs, but think about what your saying here. These government officials are doing their bidding to the detriment of the world and selling the lies directly to the people, man woman and child.
They deserve no blame?

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Sep 22 2023 15:42 utc | 607

Don’t blame the government or its officials, many of them are victims
Posted by: snake | Sep 22 2023 15:33 utc | 305
I get it. It’s ultimately a government of billionaire oligarchs, but think about what your saying here. These government officials are doing their bidding to the detriment of the world and selling the lies directly to the people, man woman and child.
They deserve no blame?

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Sep 22 2023 15:42 utc | 608

“How Will The Biden Administration Cope With Its Loss In Ukraine?”
Who says the Biden Administration “lost”? The point of all US wars is not “winning”, it is spending, off shoring and laundering billions out of the USA into the hands of corporate interests.

Posted by: Sundance | Sep 22 2023 15:44 utc | 609

“How Will The Biden Administration Cope With Its Loss In Ukraine?”
Who says the Biden Administration “lost”? The point of all US wars is not “winning”, it is spending, off shoring and laundering billions out of the USA into the hands of corporate interests.

Posted by: Sundance | Sep 22 2023 15:44 utc | 610

The Democrats and republicans don’t take bribes they run an extortion racket. The “deep state” I mean “random money bags” are not in charge. It’s just all part of the scam. “Don’t blame us it’s those unnamed mystery people”

Posted by: OohCanada | Sep 22 2023 15:47 utc | 611

The Democrats and republicans don’t take bribes they run an extortion racket. The “deep state” I mean “random money bags” are not in charge. It’s just all part of the scam. “Don’t blame us it’s those unnamed mystery people”

Posted by: OohCanada | Sep 22 2023 15:47 utc | 612

On top of the 24 billion in USD, Biden is now sending the Ukronazis long range missiles! God help the people of the Donbass and Crimea.

Posted by: bored | Sep 22 2023 15:48 utc | 613

On top of the 24 billion in USD, Biden is now sending the Ukronazis long range missiles! God help the people of the Donbass and Crimea.

Posted by: bored | Sep 22 2023 15:48 utc | 614

We’re an online forum that nobody in power gives the least attention to.
So I fully worry Dementia Joe and his female handlers will give in to the Nazi-and-Trotskyite-affiliated advisors and double-down, even to the point of nuclear exchange.
According to the WEF (which is a pale shadow of Bilderberg), depopulation is the goal, and according to those elites, an honorable monument to achieve.
Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Sep 22 2023 5:30 utc | 203
A lot of issues here, Pacifica. Please identify the Trotskyist advisors to the Whitehouse. Amalgamation of Nazis and Trotskyists is just the worst sort of stalinism and really is a great aid to the imperialists.
And Biden doesn’t listen to anyone. He’s not making decisions. He’s been handled from day one, by a clique of hard right war loving Dems. He has Dem handlers! Wrap your mind around that. There’s no marxist handlers no Nazi handlers (although they’re quite accepting of the latter). It’s your precious Democrat Party of the United States driving this war, backing Nazis and playing nuclear chicken.
You have to be from California or some other such dictatorship of Dems.
Also, too much gloom. Yes, the bar is not a Soviet. The ideas developed here are preliminary and will be taken up en masse in the coming period.
We’re in the twilight zone after a radical break in continuity and before the new dawn whatever that may be.
There is a shock period, then acceptance of the situation, then a serious effort to grapple with it.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Sep 22 2023 15:59 utc | 615

We’re an online forum that nobody in power gives the least attention to.
So I fully worry Dementia Joe and his female handlers will give in to the Nazi-and-Trotskyite-affiliated advisors and double-down, even to the point of nuclear exchange.
According to the WEF (which is a pale shadow of Bilderberg), depopulation is the goal, and according to those elites, an honorable monument to achieve.
Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Sep 22 2023 5:30 utc | 203
A lot of issues here, Pacifica. Please identify the Trotskyist advisors to the Whitehouse. Amalgamation of Nazis and Trotskyists is just the worst sort of stalinism and really is a great aid to the imperialists.
And Biden doesn’t listen to anyone. He’s not making decisions. He’s been handled from day one, by a clique of hard right war loving Dems. He has Dem handlers! Wrap your mind around that. There’s no marxist handlers no Nazi handlers (although they’re quite accepting of the latter). It’s your precious Democrat Party of the United States driving this war, backing Nazis and playing nuclear chicken.
You have to be from California or some other such dictatorship of Dems.
Also, too much gloom. Yes, the bar is not a Soviet. The ideas developed here are preliminary and will be taken up en masse in the coming period.
We’re in the twilight zone after a radical break in continuity and before the new dawn whatever that may be.
There is a shock period, then acceptance of the situation, then a serious effort to grapple with it.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Sep 22 2023 15:59 utc | 616

Eisenhower is the darling of the conservative right that constantly speak about MIC

Eisenhower coined the term, so yes it is going to be associated with him. This isn’t a right or left issue, he straight up warned against allowing industry too much influence. Bombing the Soviets wasn’t really related to his warning..
He was of course right for many reasons. Here is today’s example of fallout from decades of waste under the military industrial complex (from Financial Times) F35s can fly 55 percent of the time says new report

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 16:03 utc | 617

Eisenhower is the darling of the conservative right that constantly speak about MIC

Eisenhower coined the term, so yes it is going to be associated with him. This isn’t a right or left issue, he straight up warned against allowing industry too much influence. Bombing the Soviets wasn’t really related to his warning..
He was of course right for many reasons. Here is today’s example of fallout from decades of waste under the military industrial complex (from Financial Times) F35s can fly 55 percent of the time says new report

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 16:03 utc | 618

To add, while much analysis of this inefficiency has focused on pecuniary matters the reality is thr MIC has created a pipeline allowing complete dipshits, utter failures and actual imbeciles into the back halls of power, allowing them to influence decisions they had no capacity for and no business being involved with.
Planes that don’t fly are only one outcome.
This corruption of the strategic ‘brain trust’ is one reason tbe actions of Maerica have grown so outlandish and stupid. Im no naif – the greed was always there, as was the malice – its just there was a better quality of manager to enact the agenda back in the day. Now even the thinking has been outsourced – Maerica is capital F fucked.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 16:12 utc | 619

To add, while much analysis of this inefficiency has focused on pecuniary matters the reality is thr MIC has created a pipeline allowing complete dipshits, utter failures and actual imbeciles into the back halls of power, allowing them to influence decisions they had no capacity for and no business being involved with.
Planes that don’t fly are only one outcome.
This corruption of the strategic ‘brain trust’ is one reason tbe actions of Maerica have grown so outlandish and stupid. Im no naif – the greed was always there, as was the malice – its just there was a better quality of manager to enact the agenda back in the day. Now even the thinking has been outsourced – Maerica is capital F fucked.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 16:12 utc | 620

>Redefine what is meant by defeat, victory, failure, success, loss, gain.
The obvious play is to go back to their original narrative i.e., that this was all about just “bleeding Russia dry,” not about “Saving Ukraine” or “Saving Democracy”
The implication that we used Ukrainians as literal cannon fodder to achieve that goal will, of course, go unstated.

Posted by: Tallman | Sep 22 2023 16:19 utc | 621

>Redefine what is meant by defeat, victory, failure, success, loss, gain.
The obvious play is to go back to their original narrative i.e., that this was all about just “bleeding Russia dry,” not about “Saving Ukraine” or “Saving Democracy”
The implication that we used Ukrainians as literal cannon fodder to achieve that goal will, of course, go unstated.

Posted by: Tallman | Sep 22 2023 16:19 utc | 622

As long as countries are run by people who can sit comfortably and even profit while sending other to fight and die.
War is the normal state of affairs.

Posted by: jared | Sep 22 2023 16:19 utc | 623

As long as countries are run by people who can sit comfortably and even profit while sending other to fight and die.
War is the normal state of affairs.

Posted by: jared | Sep 22 2023 16:19 utc | 624

Reality is definitely starting to sink in. Don’t pay attention to what the West is saying, look at what the West is doing. Poland has unequivocally stated that they are done supplying Ukraine with armaments. This morning, Zelensky slunk away from Washington with no further promises of money or weapons from the US like a twink whose been jilted by his gay sugar daddy.
The only question now is: what will be Putin’s terms for peace?

Posted by: Monos | Sep 22 2023 16:20 utc | 625

Reality is definitely starting to sink in. Don’t pay attention to what the West is saying, look at what the West is doing. Poland has unequivocally stated that they are done supplying Ukraine with armaments. This morning, Zelensky slunk away from Washington with no further promises of money or weapons from the US like a twink whose been jilted by his gay sugar daddy.
The only question now is: what will be Putin’s terms for peace?

Posted by: Monos | Sep 22 2023 16:20 utc | 626

That said, what guarantee is there that a brave new world which may emerge will be superior to the arrogant hegemony? After I saw what I thought was as a pro China post from Karlofi recently, I asked him a simple question; would he like to live in China? If he answered, I didn’t see it.
Posted by: bubbles | Sep 21 2023 21:11 utc | 99

I worked and lived in China 2003-2006
It is a dynamic place.. Personal freedoms greater than in the USA..
Cost of Living much cheaper…
They have made great strides improving the environment..
Was the high point of my professional career…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 22 2023 16:35 utc | 627

That said, what guarantee is there that a brave new world which may emerge will be superior to the arrogant hegemony? After I saw what I thought was as a pro China post from Karlofi recently, I asked him a simple question; would he like to live in China? If he answered, I didn’t see it.
Posted by: bubbles | Sep 21 2023 21:11 utc | 99

I worked and lived in China 2003-2006
It is a dynamic place.. Personal freedoms greater than in the USA..
Cost of Living much cheaper…
They have made great strides improving the environment..
Was the high point of my professional career…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 22 2023 16:35 utc | 628

Me thinks a lot of people are getting ahead of themselves. Nazi Germany had dug its own grave by december 1941 yet it kept fighting for more than three years. Ukrainian manpower and morale are hard to gauge but probably are just only now starting to come under some strain.
Western intent, be it doubling down or pivoting to war with China is likewise hard to read but it can easily keep Ukraine funded and provided with at least some hardware if the necessary trade offs are accepted.
The war may well outlast Biden current term.

Posted by: Satepestage | Sep 22 2023 16:39 utc | 629

Me thinks a lot of people are getting ahead of themselves. Nazi Germany had dug its own grave by december 1941 yet it kept fighting for more than three years. Ukrainian manpower and morale are hard to gauge but probably are just only now starting to come under some strain.
Western intent, be it doubling down or pivoting to war with China is likewise hard to read but it can easily keep Ukraine funded and provided with at least some hardware if the necessary trade offs are accepted.
The war may well outlast Biden current term.

Posted by: Satepestage | Sep 22 2023 16:39 utc | 630

According to the WEF (which is a pale shadow of Bilderberg), depopulation is the goal,
Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Sep 22 2023 5:30 utc | 203
A few months ago;
When the VP says climate change and depopulation in same sentence. The people should run like hell or fight for their lives.
She said the part out loud. But fox doing democrats damage control in this one, take notice. Played down, called it a gaffe.
I attributed this to her telling the elites she is down with depopulation agenda.
https://youtube.com/shorts/Kp3zCGXxQ7I

Posted by: lynx | Sep 22 2023 16:40 utc | 631

According to the WEF (which is a pale shadow of Bilderberg), depopulation is the goal,
Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Sep 22 2023 5:30 utc | 203
A few months ago;
When the VP says climate change and depopulation in same sentence. The people should run like hell or fight for their lives.
She said the part out loud. But fox doing democrats damage control in this one, take notice. Played down, called it a gaffe.
I attributed this to her telling the elites she is down with depopulation agenda.
https://youtube.com/shorts/Kp3zCGXxQ7I

Posted by: lynx | Sep 22 2023 16:40 utc | 632

Seymour Hersh had a reputation for claiming the US was about to invade Iran every single year, and he made groundless allegations that the US threw OBL’s body in the ground in Afghanistan as opposed to burying him at sea. What is this website going to do if Hersh turns out to be wrong again, and even if Ukraine actually wins the war?

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 22 2023 16:41 utc | 633

Seymour Hersh had a reputation for claiming the US was about to invade Iran every single year, and he made groundless allegations that the US threw OBL’s body in the ground in Afghanistan as opposed to burying him at sea. What is this website going to do if Hersh turns out to be wrong again, and even if Ukraine actually wins the war?

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 22 2023 16:41 utc | 634

Look at yourself in the mirror and you will see who is crappy and racist.
Posted by: sal | Sep 22 2023 10:45 utc | 232
Read again, „crappy“ was not my choice of words, I simply replied…

Posted by: Zet | Sep 22 2023 16:41 utc | 635

Look at yourself in the mirror and you will see who is crappy and racist.
Posted by: sal | Sep 22 2023 10:45 utc | 232
Read again, „crappy“ was not my choice of words, I simply replied…

Posted by: Zet | Sep 22 2023 16:41 utc | 636

Trump is the Biden’s MSM misdirection!
Money laundering and offshore tax avoidance are very well done in Ukraine.
Victoria Nuland did the regime change there in 2014 to set up the Obama / Biden money laundering.
Send a couple of BILLION over and get a decent kickback. Biden could NOT have sent the cash over without Obama’s OK. 10-20% of Two B?
https://thekennedybeacon.substack.com/p/a-tale-of-two-oligarchies?

Posted by: ursel doran | Sep 22 2023 16:41 utc | 637

Trump is the Biden’s MSM misdirection!
Money laundering and offshore tax avoidance are very well done in Ukraine.
Victoria Nuland did the regime change there in 2014 to set up the Obama / Biden money laundering.
Send a couple of BILLION over and get a decent kickback. Biden could NOT have sent the cash over without Obama’s OK. 10-20% of Two B?
https://thekennedybeacon.substack.com/p/a-tale-of-two-oligarchies?

Posted by: ursel doran | Sep 22 2023 16:41 utc | 638

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 22 2023 16:41 utc | 319
First it must be defined what Ukraine victory should be and, by extension, what the NATO victory is.
Ukraine or Zelensky declarations sound like victory should be retake of all Ukraine territories comprise Crimea.
NATO declarations sound like victory is not only Ukraine border restoration but to severely damage Russia from economic and military pov and regime change with Putin, and possibly others, convicted and processed.
By now nothing like that is foreseeable in the near future.

Posted by: Mario | Sep 22 2023 16:53 utc | 639

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 22 2023 16:41 utc | 319
First it must be defined what Ukraine victory should be and, by extension, what the NATO victory is.
Ukraine or Zelensky declarations sound like victory should be retake of all Ukraine territories comprise Crimea.
NATO declarations sound like victory is not only Ukraine border restoration but to severely damage Russia from economic and military pov and regime change with Putin, and possibly others, convicted and processed.
By now nothing like that is foreseeable in the near future.

Posted by: Mario | Sep 22 2023 16:53 utc | 640

Echo Chamber | Sep 22 2023 7:46 utc | 215
Exactly so. Sadly.
Much love from France x

Posted by: extremebuilder | Sep 22 2023 17:01 utc | 641

Echo Chamber | Sep 22 2023 7:46 utc | 215
Exactly so. Sadly.
Much love from France x

Posted by: extremebuilder | Sep 22 2023 17:01 utc | 642

@Trubind1 | Sep 21 2023 19:31 utc | 65
@Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 22 2023 5:57 utc | 206

Feels like 30 years ago I was orphaned and then catapulted into a degenerate dysfunctional family system full of drama, pretense & violence with no way out.

The cognitive dissonance you are feeling results from better understanding, not because the situation has suddenly changed.
So it’s more like you are just learning that your family member is (has always been) abusive, corrupt, drug dealing pedophile – if that makes it any better.
So the pain you feel is actually a part of the healing process – is the upside.
The downside is that the reality is not very pleasant, but the fact that people are waking up to that, creates positive affect.
I think that the public is learning at relatively accelerating rate.

Posted by: jared | Sep 22 2023 17:01 utc | 643

@Trubind1 | Sep 21 2023 19:31 utc | 65
@Posted by: Norwegian | Sep 22 2023 5:57 utc | 206

Feels like 30 years ago I was orphaned and then catapulted into a degenerate dysfunctional family system full of drama, pretense & violence with no way out.

The cognitive dissonance you are feeling results from better understanding, not because the situation has suddenly changed.
So it’s more like you are just learning that your family member is (has always been) abusive, corrupt, drug dealing pedophile – if that makes it any better.
So the pain you feel is actually a part of the healing process – is the upside.
The downside is that the reality is not very pleasant, but the fact that people are waking up to that, creates positive affect.
I think that the public is learning at relatively accelerating rate.

Posted by: jared | Sep 22 2023 17:01 utc | 644

Posted by: Mario | Sep 22 2023 16:53 utc | 322
Ukraine or Zelensky declarations sound like victory should be retake of all Ukraine territories comprise Crimea.
Yes, I’d leave it at; the condition of Russia after this is another matter. Ukraine would have to agree to guarantees of the human rights of all people living in the Donbass and Crimea, similar to what Azerbaijan is insisting it will do in Naboro-Karabakh, and to ban Azov-like groups from holding any position of power. Ukraine could maintain neutrality, or a status where it joins NATO but does not allow foreign NATO troops to station there, let alone take in NATO nukes. UN peacekeeper troops can station in Ukraine instead to ensure that both sides maintain their agreements.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 22 2023 17:02 utc | 645

Posted by: Mario | Sep 22 2023 16:53 utc | 322
Ukraine or Zelensky declarations sound like victory should be retake of all Ukraine territories comprise Crimea.
Yes, I’d leave it at; the condition of Russia after this is another matter. Ukraine would have to agree to guarantees of the human rights of all people living in the Donbass and Crimea, similar to what Azerbaijan is insisting it will do in Naboro-Karabakh, and to ban Azov-like groups from holding any position of power. Ukraine could maintain neutrality, or a status where it joins NATO but does not allow foreign NATO troops to station there, let alone take in NATO nukes. UN peacekeeper troops can station in Ukraine instead to ensure that both sides maintain their agreements.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 22 2023 17:02 utc | 646

Posted by: Áobh O’Sheachnasaigh | Sep 21 2023 18:31 utc | 33
«The effect? Loss of world dominance. The USA’s reputation and standing in the world has been utterly ruined.»
Indeed, just like after Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq! 🙂

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 22 2023 17:03 utc | 647

Posted by: Áobh O’Sheachnasaigh | Sep 21 2023 18:31 utc | 33
«The effect? Loss of world dominance. The USA’s reputation and standing in the world has been utterly ruined.»
Indeed, just like after Korea, Vietnam, Lebanon, Somalia, Afghanistan, Iraq! 🙂

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 22 2023 17:03 utc | 648

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 21 2023 20:03 utc | 78
“The entire military community knows that Ukraine went to hell in a handbasket.”
My guess is that the ukrainian defeat was certainly part of the plan of the USA military community, to the point that they began training several years ago their post-defeat “stay behind” insurgents. Why take stupid “home front morale” propaganda at face value?
I reckon that to far the USA strategists have been very pleased with how long has the ukrainian defeat taken and how much damage they have done to the RF military and morale, probably they expected a faster defeat and less damage to the RF.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 22 2023 17:10 utc | 649

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 21 2023 20:03 utc | 78
“The entire military community knows that Ukraine went to hell in a handbasket.”
My guess is that the ukrainian defeat was certainly part of the plan of the USA military community, to the point that they began training several years ago their post-defeat “stay behind” insurgents. Why take stupid “home front morale” propaganda at face value?
I reckon that to far the USA strategists have been very pleased with how long has the ukrainian defeat taken and how much damage they have done to the RF military and morale, probably they expected a faster defeat and less damage to the RF.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 22 2023 17:10 utc | 650

My view is that this is far from over and even maybe going the opposite side. So thinking of how the US will react to loss is interesting but only in an academic way.
The same analysis of the situation on the ground made from the pro-Russian point of view is also repeated by the pro-Ukrainian point of view but with the roles exchanged. At least on the internet fora. In absence of reliable information, we must see the facts which tell us that Russia is on the retreat since last summer. Losing territory, losing assets in the Black Sea (the result of which we see today) and just not managing to dent the Ukrainian/NATO side with their constant night missile attacks.
Economically they however fare much better than anyone thought. But militarily, Russia has little to show since last summer against NATO assets. Is it intentional or not, that is a different question.

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 22 2023 17:13 utc | 651

My view is that this is far from over and even maybe going the opposite side. So thinking of how the US will react to loss is interesting but only in an academic way.
The same analysis of the situation on the ground made from the pro-Russian point of view is also repeated by the pro-Ukrainian point of view but with the roles exchanged. At least on the internet fora. In absence of reliable information, we must see the facts which tell us that Russia is on the retreat since last summer. Losing territory, losing assets in the Black Sea (the result of which we see today) and just not managing to dent the Ukrainian/NATO side with their constant night missile attacks.
Economically they however fare much better than anyone thought. But militarily, Russia has little to show since last summer against NATO assets. Is it intentional or not, that is a different question.

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 22 2023 17:13 utc | 652

Posted by: Tallman | Sep 22 2023 16:19 utc | 313
“The implication that we used Ukrainians as literal cannon fodder to achieve that goal will, of course, go unstated.”
Actually it has been stated explicitly several times by some significant USA/NATO personalities, and by _elensky himself in an interview with “The Economist”:
https://www.economist.com/europe/volodymyr-zelensky-on-why-ukraine-must-defeat-putin/21808448
Mr _elensky divides NATO into five camps. First are those who “don‘t mind a long war
because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine and comes at
the cost of Ukrainian lives”.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 22 2023 17:15 utc | 653

Posted by: Tallman | Sep 22 2023 16:19 utc | 313
“The implication that we used Ukrainians as literal cannon fodder to achieve that goal will, of course, go unstated.”
Actually it has been stated explicitly several times by some significant USA/NATO personalities, and by _elensky himself in an interview with “The Economist”:
https://www.economist.com/europe/volodymyr-zelensky-on-why-ukraine-must-defeat-putin/21808448
Mr _elensky divides NATO into five camps. First are those who “don‘t mind a long war
because it would mean exhausting Russia, even if this means the demise of Ukraine and comes at
the cost of Ukrainian lives”.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 22 2023 17:15 utc | 654

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 22 2023 17:02 utc | 325
What you assert is a no go for Ukraine and NATO, more or less is minks2, and, by the way, at the present peace of counteroffensive will take years.

Posted by: Mario | Sep 22 2023 17:16 utc | 655

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Sep 22 2023 17:02 utc | 325
What you assert is a no go for Ukraine and NATO, more or less is minks2, and, by the way, at the present peace of counteroffensive will take years.

Posted by: Mario | Sep 22 2023 17:16 utc | 656

I just want to add that the fact that Russia is militarily losing is not strange or unexpected. Fighting NATO with this intensity, against their collective military economic and propaganda might is something that you are bound to lose at a given point.
The surprise is that Russia lasted for so long and economically recovering better than the West. Integration of anti-Western forces also got a boost that noone expected.
But militarily, yeah, winning this thing outright is out of the cards and has been since Boris Johnson stopped the initial negotiations. We are far from a place where there is a solution in sight militarily.

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 22 2023 17:20 utc | 657

I just want to add that the fact that Russia is militarily losing is not strange or unexpected. Fighting NATO with this intensity, against their collective military economic and propaganda might is something that you are bound to lose at a given point.
The surprise is that Russia lasted for so long and economically recovering better than the West. Integration of anti-Western forces also got a boost that noone expected.
But militarily, yeah, winning this thing outright is out of the cards and has been since Boris Johnson stopped the initial negotiations. We are far from a place where there is a solution in sight militarily.

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 22 2023 17:20 utc | 658

True story,
was in San Jose few years back, met a guy who slept in his truck. Homeless and starving. He would hide while sleeping cause it’s illegal to sleep in us of a.
It was hot he had shorts on
and could see just bones. Reminded me of Dachau. Was sad he slept in Safeway grocery parking lot. Also cause he’d been hiding squeezed in truck cab, he was around four foot tall, as lost a footin height. Under 80lbs, his age was in 40’s.
Seeing a starving to death man panhandling brought tears. Haven’t cried in twenty years.

Posted by: Fantasma | Sep 22 2023 17:23 utc | 659

True story,
was in San Jose few years back, met a guy who slept in his truck. Homeless and starving. He would hide while sleeping cause it’s illegal to sleep in us of a.
It was hot he had shorts on
and could see just bones. Reminded me of Dachau. Was sad he slept in Safeway grocery parking lot. Also cause he’d been hiding squeezed in truck cab, he was around four foot tall, as lost a footin height. Under 80lbs, his age was in 40’s.
Seeing a starving to death man panhandling brought tears. Haven’t cried in twenty years.

Posted by: Fantasma | Sep 22 2023 17:23 utc | 660

How will they cope? Go look at a Russian population pyramid chart. Russia has taken a beating even if it ultimately emerges victorious, and the loss of at minimum tens of thousands, but likely at least one hundred thousand men in the prime of their lives has meant that Russia will have to put off the realization of its imperialist ambitions for decades. It has ensured its status as junior to China, whose own demographic woes could be alleviated by loosening up its immigration regime. The US ensured that Russia bled, and thousands of dead Russians is all Biden needed to stir up patriotic fervor and wedge himself against the isolationist paleocons and reactionaries who are at the base of the GOP. Ukraine surrendering today would be fine for Biden, if not better than Ukraine dragging out the war. Why would Biden care? The MIC got to test its weapons platforms and identify weaknesses in real combat situations. Washington, D.C., got to bleed a whole generation of Russians and it only cost them a whole generation of Ukrainians and about the annual budget of NASA. If Biden is asked on the debate stage “was it worth it,” he has a litany of thought-terminating cliches about “defending democracy” to work off of, but what will really seal the deal for the American public is the reminder that so many Russians died.

Posted by: fnord | Sep 22 2023 17:25 utc | 661

How will they cope? Go look at a Russian population pyramid chart. Russia has taken a beating even if it ultimately emerges victorious, and the loss of at minimum tens of thousands, but likely at least one hundred thousand men in the prime of their lives has meant that Russia will have to put off the realization of its imperialist ambitions for decades. It has ensured its status as junior to China, whose own demographic woes could be alleviated by loosening up its immigration regime. The US ensured that Russia bled, and thousands of dead Russians is all Biden needed to stir up patriotic fervor and wedge himself against the isolationist paleocons and reactionaries who are at the base of the GOP. Ukraine surrendering today would be fine for Biden, if not better than Ukraine dragging out the war. Why would Biden care? The MIC got to test its weapons platforms and identify weaknesses in real combat situations. Washington, D.C., got to bleed a whole generation of Russians and it only cost them a whole generation of Ukrainians and about the annual budget of NASA. If Biden is asked on the debate stage “was it worth it,” he has a litany of thought-terminating cliches about “defending democracy” to work off of, but what will really seal the deal for the American public is the reminder that so many Russians died.

Posted by: fnord | Sep 22 2023 17:25 utc | 662

I just want to add that the fact that Russia is militarily losing

Well, you will forgive me if I treat everything you say as suspect from now on. That’s, essentially, an insane thing to say, utterly detached from reality.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 17:26 utc | 663

I just want to add that the fact that Russia is militarily losing

Well, you will forgive me if I treat everything you say as suspect from now on. That’s, essentially, an insane thing to say, utterly detached from reality.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 17:26 utc | 664

I figure the random trolls that post their reality defying screeds glorifying the sacrifice of the better part of a million Ukrainians at the altar of Maerican imperailism for no gains whatsoever are themselves directly involved in the idiotic decision making that has led to this juncture.
Take a bow, geniuses. You walked Maerica to a historical defeat.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 17:29 utc | 665

I figure the random trolls that post their reality defying screeds glorifying the sacrifice of the better part of a million Ukrainians at the altar of Maerican imperailism for no gains whatsoever are themselves directly involved in the idiotic decision making that has led to this juncture.
Take a bow, geniuses. You walked Maerica to a historical defeat.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 17:29 utc | 666

Of course you will try to spin it as some victory, what choice do you have? This debacle will be the beginning of the unravelling of the short lived Maerican empire. Be proud! Unwittingly and unintentionally you have been instrumental in tearing down the fascist states of Maerica. Something better may rise in its place.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 17:33 utc | 667

Of course you will try to spin it as some victory, what choice do you have? This debacle will be the beginning of the unravelling of the short lived Maerican empire. Be proud! Unwittingly and unintentionally you have been instrumental in tearing down the fascist states of Maerica. Something better may rise in its place.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 17:33 utc | 668

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 17:26 utc | 335
Treat it as you like, its the internet. I am pro-russian as they come but realism seems like a luxury to many here.
Posted by: fnord | Sep 22 2023 17:25 utc | 334
You understand that what you wrote makes your side ordinary pschyhopats?

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 22 2023 17:34 utc | 669

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 17:26 utc | 335
Treat it as you like, its the internet. I am pro-russian as they come but realism seems like a luxury to many here.
Posted by: fnord | Sep 22 2023 17:25 utc | 334
You understand that what you wrote makes your side ordinary pschyhopats?

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 22 2023 17:34 utc | 670

The Russian army is much stronger now than in February 2022 and Ukraine and NATO are way weaker; as the red army of 1944 was much stronger than in 1941 despite the huge losses and the whermacht was much weaker. Russia has now hundred of thousands of battered troops and have gained much experience in weapons, systems and methods, much more than the NATO could learn remotely (many experiences must be lived or “suffered” to learn well).
Demographically the russian war losse are insignificant and that is not the case of Ukraine (demographic losses due to the front and from the huge scale of the emigration that will never return).
Econocally Western Europe is destroyed (Germany is de-indutrializing quickly and their best industries moving to….China!), and USA also has many economical problems that will scalate in the near future.
In due time the Russian army will show all his cards

Posted by: Dave | Sep 22 2023 17:45 utc | 671

The Russian army is much stronger now than in February 2022 and Ukraine and NATO are way weaker; as the red army of 1944 was much stronger than in 1941 despite the huge losses and the whermacht was much weaker. Russia has now hundred of thousands of battered troops and have gained much experience in weapons, systems and methods, much more than the NATO could learn remotely (many experiences must be lived or “suffered” to learn well).
Demographically the russian war losse are insignificant and that is not the case of Ukraine (demographic losses due to the front and from the huge scale of the emigration that will never return).
Econocally Western Europe is destroyed (Germany is de-indutrializing quickly and their best industries moving to….China!), and USA also has many economical problems that will scalate in the near future.
In due time the Russian army will show all his cards

Posted by: Dave | Sep 22 2023 17:45 utc | 672

@Comacho in Chief | Sep 22 2023 5:02 utc | 198
When the cod stocks went down, everyone thought that the stocks would increase after some years of the moratorium on fishing being in effect. That did not happen, cod stocks never fully recovered. Why? Because other fish took over the niche occupied by the cod.
Similarly, when America goes down, it will never recover again. Other countries will take over America’s niche while America is down and out, and those other countries won’t allow America to recover again. The only hope for America is to steal Venezuelan oil, or to suddenly come up with some new technology which will give America an edge again. Short of those 2 circumstances, America will never rise after falling. Who knows, maybe peacemaker Putin will be a dumb Christian and will cushion America’s fall, exactly the opposite of what America done to Russia when Russia collapsed. Christians are such a bore.

Posted by: gT | Sep 22 2023 17:45 utc | 673

@Comacho in Chief | Sep 22 2023 5:02 utc | 198
When the cod stocks went down, everyone thought that the stocks would increase after some years of the moratorium on fishing being in effect. That did not happen, cod stocks never fully recovered. Why? Because other fish took over the niche occupied by the cod.
Similarly, when America goes down, it will never recover again. Other countries will take over America’s niche while America is down and out, and those other countries won’t allow America to recover again. The only hope for America is to steal Venezuelan oil, or to suddenly come up with some new technology which will give America an edge again. Short of those 2 circumstances, America will never rise after falling. Who knows, maybe peacemaker Putin will be a dumb Christian and will cushion America’s fall, exactly the opposite of what America done to Russia when Russia collapsed. Christians are such a bore.

Posted by: gT | Sep 22 2023 17:45 utc | 674

@Doctor Eleven 336/337
Look on the bright side: if the gov shuts down we might get a reprieve for a week or two. Or they may need to keep posting trolls without pay. Can’t imagine online opinion operations are considered critical enough to keep up especially if in the bigger picture they are ready to pivot away from Ukraine.

Posted by: super extra | Sep 22 2023 17:51 utc | 675

@Doctor Eleven 336/337
Look on the bright side: if the gov shuts down we might get a reprieve for a week or two. Or they may need to keep posting trolls without pay. Can’t imagine online opinion operations are considered critical enough to keep up especially if in the bigger picture they are ready to pivot away from Ukraine.

Posted by: super extra | Sep 22 2023 17:51 utc | 676

Posted by: Dave | Sep 22 2023 17:45 utc | 339
Exhibit A of the lack of realism many have on here. It creates a distorted picture that I am starting to think is a bug in Western society.
Little what you write is true. Russian army is somewhat weaker now than it was at the start and the Ukrainian army has become far stronger with the NATO armaments, PR, mercenaries and pharmaceuticals. At the start there were no Russian assets blown up by missiles, now it is becoming an almost daily occurrence. At the start the Ukrainian navy was completely disabled, today they defend own trade corridors and have hightech gear to constantly nibble at the Russian fleet. At the start there were no drones slamming apartment buildings in Moscow, now they do it every other week. The territory Russia took at the start, albeit with little effort, has been given away one by one.
Economically in the West there is nothing special going on, I dont know where you live but things are far from what many claim here at the bar.
You demographic arguments are correct.
Russia has achieved wonders economically but militarily it is not going as many here think.

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 22 2023 18:01 utc | 677

Posted by: Dave | Sep 22 2023 17:45 utc | 339
Exhibit A of the lack of realism many have on here. It creates a distorted picture that I am starting to think is a bug in Western society.
Little what you write is true. Russian army is somewhat weaker now than it was at the start and the Ukrainian army has become far stronger with the NATO armaments, PR, mercenaries and pharmaceuticals. At the start there were no Russian assets blown up by missiles, now it is becoming an almost daily occurrence. At the start the Ukrainian navy was completely disabled, today they defend own trade corridors and have hightech gear to constantly nibble at the Russian fleet. At the start there were no drones slamming apartment buildings in Moscow, now they do it every other week. The territory Russia took at the start, albeit with little effort, has been given away one by one.
Economically in the West there is nothing special going on, I dont know where you live but things are far from what many claim here at the bar.
You demographic arguments are correct.
Russia has achieved wonders economically but militarily it is not going as many here think.

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 22 2023 18:01 utc | 678

334
how many?

Posted by: slowsoft | Sep 22 2023 18:06 utc | 679

334
how many?

Posted by: slowsoft | Sep 22 2023 18:06 utc | 680

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 22 2023 11:38 utc | 243

…Putin could lose his entire Black Sea fleet and all Russia would suffer is a little wounded pride…

As incredible as your statement sounds, it appears to reflect a common sentiment in these discussions. Some kind of grotesque giddiness in defiance of unequivocally serious developments.

Posted by: robin | Sep 22 2023 18:15 utc | 681

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Sep 22 2023 11:38 utc | 243

…Putin could lose his entire Black Sea fleet and all Russia would suffer is a little wounded pride…

As incredible as your statement sounds, it appears to reflect a common sentiment in these discussions. Some kind of grotesque giddiness in defiance of unequivocally serious developments.

Posted by: robin | Sep 22 2023 18:15 utc | 682

342
„….slamming apartment buildings…“
therefore u need an army?
Hmmmm
i think its called terrorism
Only problem is Putin who is on a Sado Maso trip with his SMO (sado maso operation)
He might think that he is Jesus….?
Without SM Vlad the russian army would flatten ukraine to dust and take out Nato supporting equipment
But u re right ukros got stronger and more sophiscated thanks to Slomo
Slomo gave Nato & ukros the time they needed to rearm and set up effective infrastructure

Posted by: slowsoft | Sep 22 2023 18:51 utc | 683

342
„….slamming apartment buildings…“
therefore u need an army?
Hmmmm
i think its called terrorism
Only problem is Putin who is on a Sado Maso trip with his SMO (sado maso operation)
He might think that he is Jesus….?
Without SM Vlad the russian army would flatten ukraine to dust and take out Nato supporting equipment
But u re right ukros got stronger and more sophiscated thanks to Slomo
Slomo gave Nato & ukros the time they needed to rearm and set up effective infrastructure

Posted by: slowsoft | Sep 22 2023 18:51 utc | 684

“Haiti, the ground work is surely being laid for that.”
Well, Haiti got a full-makeover from the US a century ago. Maybe we can reform our reforms!
Probably we’d have to enlist latino immigrants with promises of citizenship. “Real Americans” don’t seem eager to enlist anymore. Of course, if we lose in Haiti (Napoleon did), then we’ll be very embarrassed indeed!

Posted by: lester | Sep 22 2023 19:00 utc | 685

“Haiti, the ground work is surely being laid for that.”
Well, Haiti got a full-makeover from the US a century ago. Maybe we can reform our reforms!
Probably we’d have to enlist latino immigrants with promises of citizenship. “Real Americans” don’t seem eager to enlist anymore. Of course, if we lose in Haiti (Napoleon did), then we’ll be very embarrassed indeed!

Posted by: lester | Sep 22 2023 19:00 utc | 686

Posted by: ursel doran | Sep 22 2023 16:41 utc | 321
Interesting article. Thanks.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 22 2023 19:10 utc | 687

Posted by: ursel doran | Sep 22 2023 16:41 utc | 321
Interesting article. Thanks.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 22 2023 19:10 utc | 688

NATO jargon. Putin’s fleet, Putin’s war, etc.
Just as a reminder, the Russian armed forces, like the Russian state, are not Mr. Putin’s private property. 🙂

Posted by: Nobody | Sep 22 2023 19:10 utc | 689

NATO jargon. Putin’s fleet, Putin’s war, etc.
Just as a reminder, the Russian armed forces, like the Russian state, are not Mr. Putin’s private property. 🙂

Posted by: Nobody | Sep 22 2023 19:10 utc | 690

alek_a | Sep 22 2023 18:01 utc | 342
They’re not weaker. Full control was taken by Shoigu-Gerasimov team of amateurs after Prigo problem. Even Surovikin the retreater was sent as far as possible, probably he didn’t retreat far enough. They are waiting for nato to get bored and agree to Minsk 3 and nato is waiting for them to get bored and agree to Minsk 3 (t.me/intelslava/51422). The question is who agrees first

Posted by: rk | Sep 22 2023 19:25 utc | 691

alek_a | Sep 22 2023 18:01 utc | 342
They’re not weaker. Full control was taken by Shoigu-Gerasimov team of amateurs after Prigo problem. Even Surovikin the retreater was sent as far as possible, probably he didn’t retreat far enough. They are waiting for nato to get bored and agree to Minsk 3 and nato is waiting for them to get bored and agree to Minsk 3 (t.me/intelslava/51422). The question is who agrees first

Posted by: rk | Sep 22 2023 19:25 utc | 692

Ukraine managed to hit a (stationary, century old) building with a missile! You would swear it was the second coming of Christ by the way the histrionic Western media reacts and NAFO trolls celebrate.
And yet, it’s a missile. Hitting a building. Not an actual ship. A concrete, non moving, unarmed building.
This is what you have been reduced to, Maerican warmongers. Crowing over managing to hit a building with a guided missile.
That building – which is still standing given the relatively small kinetic force of the missiles used – how exactly was striking that (again – stationary) building helping to win the war, again?
War for PR. UkraiNATO is dead they’re just too stupid to realize it yet.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 19:32 utc | 693

Ukraine managed to hit a (stationary, century old) building with a missile! You would swear it was the second coming of Christ by the way the histrionic Western media reacts and NAFO trolls celebrate.
And yet, it’s a missile. Hitting a building. Not an actual ship. A concrete, non moving, unarmed building.
This is what you have been reduced to, Maerican warmongers. Crowing over managing to hit a building with a guided missile.
That building – which is still standing given the relatively small kinetic force of the missiles used – how exactly was striking that (again – stationary) building helping to win the war, again?
War for PR. UkraiNATO is dead they’re just too stupid to realize it yet.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 19:32 utc | 694

They are waiting for nato to get bored and agree to Minsk 3 and nato is waiting for them to get bored and agree to Minsk 3 (t.me/intelslava/51422). The question is who agrees first

While I rarely agree with you rk I never doubt the sincerity of your views. This gave me a chuckle, thanks.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 19:34 utc | 695

They are waiting for nato to get bored and agree to Minsk 3 and nato is waiting for them to get bored and agree to Minsk 3 (t.me/intelslava/51422). The question is who agrees first

While I rarely agree with you rk I never doubt the sincerity of your views. This gave me a chuckle, thanks.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 19:34 utc | 696

NATO is winning this proxy war.

Posted by: Rita | Sep 22 2023 19:43 utc | 697

NATO is winning this proxy war.

Posted by: Rita | Sep 22 2023 19:43 utc | 698

NATO is winning this proxy war.

Smoking is good for you. The Earth is flat.
See I can do it too! Naked assertions without any argument are simply the farts of an unsound mind. The problem with the internet is it convinced everyone their opinions matter.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 19:59 utc | 699

NATO is winning this proxy war.

Smoking is good for you. The Earth is flat.
See I can do it too! Naked assertions without any argument are simply the farts of an unsound mind. The problem with the internet is it convinced everyone their opinions matter.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Sep 22 2023 19:59 utc | 700