Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 04, 2023

How Sanctions Failed To Hinder China's Development

These headlines related to China are demonstrating a very fast historic development:

From the last link:

The Pentagon committed on Monday to fielding thousands of attritable, autonomous systems across multiple domains within the next two years as part of a new initiative to better compete with China.

The program, dubbed Replicator, was announced by Deputy Defense Secretary Kathleen Hicks, speaking at the National Defense Industrial Association’s Emerging Technologies conference here.

“Replicator will galvanize progress in the too-slow shift of U.S. military innovation to leverage platforms that are small, smart, cheap and many,” Hicks said.

China's industry developed by copying designs from other producers. But it only took a few years until it started to produce better or new products for new markets. Historically this is nothing new. Germany's industrial development happened by ripping off British manufacturing processes and products. A few years later industrial German products could compete with British ones and the Brits started to copy Germany technology.

In 2018 China demonstrated large swarms of coordinated drones that could draw moving pictures into the sky.


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Now the Pentagon wants to replicate such capabilities.

replicate: verb - If you replicate someone's experiment, work, or research, you do it yourself in exactly the same way.

I have been given a DJI drone as a gift. It is an excellent product. It is light enough to stay within legal limits. It has good flight characteristics, with excellent design and usability of hardware and software. It is reliable and comes at a reasonable price. Even the packaging was very well designed and underlined the value of the product.

Asides from way too expensive Apple products I am not aware of many U.S. or European mass market products that come near to its overall quality level.

If China's military gets drones of the quality that Chinese companies produce for consumers it is likely a generation ahead of everyone else.

It is doubtful that the Pentagon, with its lengthy procurement processes subject to Congressional graft, will ever catch up with that.

In 2019, when Trump sanctioned Huawei by denying it access to modern chips, I wrote:

Huawei currently uses U.S. made chips in many of its smartphones and networking products. But it has long expected the U.S. move and diligently prepared for it:
...
Soon U.S. chip companies will have lost all their sales to the second largest smartphone producer of the world. That loss will not be just temporarily, it will become permanent.

The moment of reckoning has come.

Last week Huawei presented its new cell phone Mate 60 Pro. Since the sanctions were implemented the company has developed genuinely new CPUs for cell phones as well as for other equipment. Bloomberg reports of the teardown and preliminary analysis of the processor by a U.S. company. It is fairly complicate system-on-a-chip that is to 100% made in China:

tphuang @tphuang - 2:25 UTC · Sep 4, 2023

Kirin 9000S teardown so surprising

Includes CPU, GPU, 5G modem, ISP, DSP + NPU (w/ Ascend lite/tiny cores + TPU)

All this squeezed into 110mm2 die w/o stacking
...
Oh, 9000S in teardown/testing showed better overall CPU performance & power consumption than 9000 & SD 888 + had better peak CPU performance than SD 8 Gen 1 all this w/o advanced packaging.


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Huawei could do this because it is an extraordinary company that was created by an extraordinary man:

Ren Zhengfei, founder and CEO of Chinese telecoms equipment maker Huawei Technologies, urged the US-sanctioned tech giant to maintain its technological lead in specific areas and focus on developing internal talent, according to his latest speech published on the company’s employee website on Monday.

“Huawei will save talent, not US dollars,” Ren said in the speech, which he delivered on July 28. “We will try hard to lead in some business aspects globally, not all aspects. For our products, the boundary can be relatively narrow, but our research boundary can be wider.”

In his July speech, Ren said the best motivation for talented workers is passion.

“I think the material reward is not that important,” he said. “The first thing is that [the worker] finds a position he has passion for … If he can work on something he is interested in, he will have no regrets.”

Ren added that no one is good at all aspects of a business from day one and that it takes time for people to grow their talents beyond a single specialised field. “[In time], you will see who becomes a leader. It’s a natural process,” he said.

That sounds like a company I would like to work for. Huawei's response to U.S. sanctions was not to give up but to hire more people:

Talent recruitment has long been important for Huawei. Ren initiated a programme known as “Top Minds” in 2019, just months after the company was blacklisted by the US government. That recruitment drive, later dubbed the “Genius Youth” programme, gave priority to candidates whose research had produced “tangible and impactful” results and winners of top research honours, according to an advertisement posted by Huawei on Weibo at the time.

Huawei has 207,000 employees globally, according to its website, and 55.6 per cent are research and development personnel. This is up from the end of 2021, when the company said it employed 195,000 people, with 54.8 per cent of them in R&D.

That is an extremely large research and development company to which a smaller production and sales arm is attached. Western finance and business attitude would never allow for something like it.

That is just one reason why the U.S. is losing the tech war with China:

Western media, for the most part, has ignored a remarkable array of Chinese pilot products in industrial automation, executed primarily by Huawei, the world’s largest maker of telecommunications infrastructure and the target of a global suppression campaign by the United States. Fully automated factories, mines, ports, and warehouses already are in operation, and the first commercial autonomous taxi service is starting up in Beijing. Huawei officials say the company has 10,000 contracts for private 5G networks in China, including 6,000 in factories. Huawei’s cloud division has just launched a software platform designed to help Chinese businesses build proprietary AI systems using their own data.

This again proves that sanctions can not end development when a certain base is already there:

Restrictions on technology exports to China at best are a stopgap. Eventually, China, which graduates more engineers each year than the rest of the world combined, will develop its own substitutes, as ASML, the world’s premier maker of chip lithography equipment, avers. Even as a stopgap, though, the controls are failing. They impose high costs on China in several ways but have not impeded the Fourth Industrial Revolution. On the contrary: the limited adoption of Fourth Industrial Revolution technologies by American industry is concentrated in firms that have major commitments to China.
...
To maintain a technological edge over China, we will have to spend an additional several hundred billions of dollars, train a highly-skilled workforce, educate or import more scientists and engineers, and provide broader incentives to manufacturing. It is simply too late to try to suppress China. That is no longer within our power. What remains within our power is to restore American pre-eminence.

Well, good luck with attempting that.

Posted by b on September 4, 2023 at 15:57 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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thanks b... go china!! this fellow - Ren Zhengfei - smart guy!

Posted by: james | Sep 4 2023 16:04 utc | 1

fascinating thanks b for posting

Posted by: Jo | Sep 4 2023 16:08 utc | 2

The raw materials for hi-tech don't just fall off the back of a potato cart.

China's export restrictions on gallium and germanium is just the beginning, and the country has more tools for countermeasures if Washington plans tougher technology restrictions on Beijing, said Wei Jianguo, former vice-minister of commerce.

https://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/202307/05/WS64a4ca73a310bf8a75d6d545.html

Posted by: too scents | Sep 4 2023 16:10 utc | 3

In 2018 China demonstrated large swarms of coordinated drones that could draw moving pictures into the sky.

Now the Pentagon wants to replicate such capabilities.

I mean, this is done commercially all the time in the West too. Here is a display by an American company to promote the new Mario movie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcxfXaZSDeI

But the point is taken, China has now reached the point where it has control and dominance over all kinds of new industries and technologies due to the fact that did not reciprocate towards the neoliberal policies in the West which saw massive capital from it flow into China. China looked at what the West was doing, giving it all it's industry so it's CEOs and the company shareholders could be richer for a while at the cost of the US and other Western countries being much poorer int he future and laughed. China stipulates foreign investment must come with essentially the cloning of the company with a majority Chinese ownership. Though granted this is similar to the trick of industrialisation done in Japan and then copied by South Korea decades later.

China sees the flow of capital as a one-way street, lots of other countries get lots of FDI but adhere to the same neoliberal rules as the country which sent the FDI and then the money flows right back out with maybe a residue left over if there was wise industrial policy. (Have you noticed the words "industrial policy" seem to have left the lexicon in the Anglosphere?)

However, I sometimes think b is too easy on China due to understandable desire to see the neocon infested US empire fall. China is a country with a potential mentality of a superiority complex (What current Chinese leadership, old enough to remember a very different China feel is irrelevant, what matters is what the generations that grow up with it feel) with the "Middle Kingdom" and like other North East Asian countries has a deep ideal of racial identity, solidarity and potentially superiority. China has the potential to be a very negative hegemon for the West. Even today, the Chinese government has banned the teaching in Tibetan in some provinces that are part of historical Tibet but not the current "administrative zone", this has historically been how you kill languages. The Chinese government also has an often immature tone befitting it's prior status as a set upon revolutionary state as opposed to it's now status as a great power.

The goal should always have been to make peace with Russia to counterbalance China inheriting the US status as a hegemonic hyperpower to enable a true multipolar world. China has the very real capacity to become a new hyperpower and should be treated with extreme caution. There will be far fewer wars, there will be no Chinese neocons out to start wars in the Middle East in service for a particular country but war is the not only form of oppression.

Posted by: Altai | Sep 4 2023 16:17 utc | 4

Let me repeat the money quote from b's piece

Huawei has 207,000 employees globally, according to its website, and 55.6 per cent are research and development personnel. This is up from the end of 2021, when the company said it employed 195,000 people, with 54.8 per cent of them in R&D.

The US use to do R&D but never at the level China is....I seem to remember percentages of R&D in the 30's at the high

The bigger point to me is that China and other non-Western countries are at a disadvantage because they only do R&D for profit, not for a broader purpose like humanity's future.

The damn shit show in the West cannot end soon enough for me.....GO CHINA/RUSSIA!!

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 4 2023 16:17 utc | 5

US conceded hubris is its downfall.

Posted by: expat44 | Sep 4 2023 16:20 utc | 6

This article informs us thus:
"In 2018 China demonstrated large swarms of coordinated drones that could draw moving pictures into the sky."
This kind of display is an inherent outcome of Chines cultural traditions and true aspirations. not to ham but to display. . I heard local academics wishing for it whilst being a student at Peking University 1974-74 and 1990-93 at the Hángzhou Institute of Electronic Engineering. ´ But they discovered tha Yankees were watching them and desisted from further advances. Now they are returning -- and with a vengeance!

Posted by: Tollef Ås/秋涛乐/טלפ וש | Sep 4 2023 16:20 utc | 7

Entirely foreseeable. I've said it before and I'll say it again. The British tried this exact approach with Jacquard looms in the late 1800s. It failed and American companies took over the weaving for the US. Same thing will happen here. The US is trying to keep tools from the Chinese just as the British tried to do to the US in the late 1800s. We will meet the same failure that the Brits had.

Posted by: Jeff Harrison | Sep 4 2023 16:30 utc | 8

Posted by: Altai | Sep 4 2023 16:17 utc | 4

But the point is taken, China has now reached the point where it has control and dominance over all kinds of new industries and technologies due to the fact that did not reciprocate towards the neoliberal policies in the West which saw massive capital from it flow into China.

==================================================

Great article by b, good comment by Altai, thxs.

What you say about certain one-way aspects of trade and investment seems true. Why this has been allowed to go on so long I cannot tell. The official story is that the US thought that the Chinese would be so enamored of Big Mac culture they would become liberal democracies and could take them over from within like they tried in Yeltzin’s Russia. Maybe. I find that hard to believe, but no other story is offered in its place.

One thing seems sure: the West is not only falling behind, it is being deliberately hobbled from within. Trump's policies began reversing the outflow of manufacturing and several large companies announced they were coming back home, including Apple. But then he got the boot. It remains to be seen if he can elbow his way back in thanks to massive support from We the People, but it's not likely, nor is any reversal via elections at this point. In which case presumably the sabotage will continue until the desired end is reached. I suspect it has something to do with the New World Digital Money Order. Not long now.

(I read years ago that the Master Plan is to have China = Manufacturing, Russia = Defense, America = Finance & Services, Africa = Resources, Israel = Security (CBDCs?). Probably rubbish, but quite likely there is some sort of deal...)

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 4 2023 16:37 utc | 9

Yet another comment ending with reference to an undisclosed "Them" with a "Master Plan" from our resident Nazi tolerator above me. It never ceases to amaze how far from reality some of these comments are, given the relatively high level of fact based analysis in the posts themselves.

Posted by: Brautigan | Sep 4 2023 16:44 utc | 10

#4 - "The goal should always have been to make peace with Russia to counterbalance China..."

This was a position advanced by Trump foreign policy advisors in 2016 (which was deceitfully portrayed by the political opposition and media as proof of Trump's status as "Putin's puppet").
It remains a preferred policy option for a faction of intellectuals on the US right.

However, imagining the intention of this policy prescription is enabling "a true multipolar world" is misunderstanding where these people are coming from. The intention is to reinforce a hegemonic northern hemisphere bloc of Caucasian peoples - oops, let's say European and Americas - and retain control over the global south by forming an alliance to throttle the Chinese.

Posted by: jayc | Sep 4 2023 16:53 utc | 11

The Americans are hypocrites. They industrialized through corporate theft:

Samuel Slater was a child worker at a factory using Arkwright machines, and was indentured to and trained by Jebediah Strutt, the owner of the factory. By the time he turned 21, in 1789, coastal cities like Providence, Boston, and New York were struggling to industrialize. Factories began to pop up, but they were often unsuccessful. Slater heard of the struggles of the coastal American cities, and thanks to his many years of work on Arkwright machines was well-versed in English industrial processes. But Slater’s real coup was memorizing in exacting detail, down to the smallest intricacies, the precise workings of the spinning wheel. He learned it so thoroughly, in fact, that he’d be able to reproduce it without having to smuggle highly illegal written plans. In 1789, he left England for New York. By 1790, Slater had written a boastful letter to the Almy & Brown mill in Pawtucket, Rhode Island, promising to build them a spinning wheel just like those in England. “If I do not make as good yarn, as they do in England,” he wrote, “I will have nothing for my services, but will throw the whole of what I have attempted over the bridge.” The promise was enough for co-owner Moses Brown, who contracted Slater to build the machines in 1790.

Posted by: Maracatu | Sep 4 2023 16:56 utc | 12

A sub plot to this story is the way that China has learned from the history of the Soviet Union how to deal with capitalist sanctions, boycotts and other manifestations of economic warfare.
The USSR failed in its attempt to do what China has been doing since 1949, which was the NEP.
As b points out above German industrialisation relied on borrowing the most advanced techniques (and importing the men who knew how to employ them) from Britain. As did the US where the textile industry was built in the same way.
This is the way the world works- Britain gained its knowledge of cotton textile production from India- the other side of the triumph of Manchester is the way that the British wrecked India's superior textile industry to clear the way for its own exports.
The entire foundation of the Empire whose funeral rites we are now anticipating lay in the development of Chinese marine developments and armaments production.
Those who emphasise the capitalist traits of Chinese industry are missing the crucial point that it is guided by plans and is aimed at long term objectives- both of whicxh are anathema to the capitalisy class which believes, following Keynes, that "in the long term, we are all dead."
Left to capitalism we would be.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 4 2023 16:58 utc | 13

It is in fact true that the Chinese nicked western technology. There were and maybe post-covid, still are, hundreds of Chinese students in all university departments. In Britain at least, the universities depend on the fees from Chinese students in order to survive.
But it is legitimate, as we did the same to them, when they were more advanced technologically speaking than the west. First case was silk, with silkworm eggs hidden in hollow bamboo in the 6th century. Then porcelain, but it took until the 17th century to get the technology right. And finally gunpowder, which was nicked by the Mongols and transferred westwards. i.e. everybody does it, one shouldn't complain about what's happening now.

Posted by: laguerre | Sep 4 2023 17:00 utc | 14

@Altai | Sep 4 2023 16:17 utc | 4
About the potentialof China to become a negativ for the west and about certain moves against Tibetan language


Chinas behaviour sofar has been very constructive.
Win-win remember.
If the west continues having a low quality education with exams without real value we ought to welcome chinese influence on our reforms.

About Tibet. I think it matters a very great deal what the west is attempting to do using Tibet against China.
And Tibet has for a long time been manipulated by the anglosaxons for that purpose. Further the history of Tibet isnt exactly reassuring. Dalai Lama was once the moral councel for the mongols when they massmurdered by the millions.
And it appears that such monks would be practising pedohiles to an extent. At least according to conventional westerners mean by that. I dont claim to know or understand this well but it may be that some external influence wouldnt be a great harm if it ceases to allow Tibet to be a battering ram for the anglosaxons.
The anglosaxons have influenced Afrika so they turned against France without turning against the anglosaxons.
They spoke of skipping french education and so on.
Maybe this was just a warning and things will calm down.
But western countries, France included, have become far too americanised. It is the influence by the anglosaxons on all countries we ought to be concerned about.

And incidentally you may add the US itself as partly a victim since the british managed to manipulate the situation in the US by funding all libraries to boost Britains interests. The carnegie foundation was all over the place boosting war boosting Britain, boosting collectivism.
Leibniz admired and wanted the west to collaborate with China.
If that had happened instead of Britains elites doing everything to demonise Leibniz, the world might have been a much better place.

Posted by: petergrfstrm | Sep 4 2023 17:14 utc | 15

And one of the reasons Hollywood is in Cali was to escape Edison's patents regime.

Posted by: JonB | Sep 4 2023 17:22 utc | 16

I previously posted that I have been intrigued by the Harmony OS that Huawei was developing. FOSS. Not sure if they are using it in their phones yet. IIRC correctly it was in past on a git. I could be wrong, but the severe difficulty of going with a Huawei phone in usOfa is not just about chips, but also about open source OS. DARPA must have a lot of muscle in Android and IOS for inserting and design. I would liken it to Saddam Hussein and Gadaffi pushing for a gold based different currency.

And of course whenever Huawei is mentioned I remember the CFO being detained in Canada.

peace out

Posted by: paxmark1 | Sep 4 2023 17:23 utc | 17

Trump didn't revive manufacturing. That's just empty rhetoric.

Also the idea that China is dangerous if they are powerful is projection from Westerners who non-whites gaining power.

What will China do that the West hasn't tried? Nothing different.

Posted by: Peter Dahu | Sep 4 2023 17:23 utc | 18

"To maintain a technological edge over China, we will have to spend an additional several hundred billions of dollars, train a highly-skilled workforce, educate or import more scientists and engineers, ..."

Excuse me. Increasingly the United States is importing foreign scientists and engineers - and it's driving talented Americans out of these fields. Compared to finance and law and medicine, in the US science and engineering are increasingly dead-end fields. Other than a handful of lucky winners, salaries and job security for these professions are stagnant and falling. In science increasingly the talented people are fleeing for administration - only chumps do actual science.

Now at one level so what - there is an unlimited amount of talented Indians and Pakistanis etc., who cares if there are no American scientists and engineers? I think it does matter. You have a mass of talented but disposable workers with no connection to the nation, and the best dream only of moving into another field. Look at England. As the "brain drain" started causing talented English to flee, senior government officials said so what, we can replace them with Pakistanis for so much cheaper. And indeed they can, and have. The UK has dirt cheap labor - but this hasn't boosted their technology, it has rather crushed UK manufacturing, it's all moving to finance. yes?

US graduate students in science and engineering are increasingly slackers looking for a subsidized party, or third world refugees who care only about escaping their own hellish lands, or diversity babies sold the story that they too can be Einstein if they only believe in themselves. And as time goes on, the best foreign scientists and engineers will gravitate to other countries with better opportunities. Remember, the immigration policy that gave the US people like Einstein and Fermi and Szilard etc. was highly restrictionist. In the long run you can have quality, you can quantity, but you can't have both.

If we really wanted to boost US technology, we would have to have a more universal mercantilist trade policy, break up the monopolies, limit the import of foreigners to people of truly outstanding ability, add back rigor to our universities... but I don't see that happening.

Posted by: TG | Sep 4 2023 17:30 utc | 19

@paxmark1 | Sep 4 2023 17:23 utc | 17

The backdoor in AOSP "Android" handsets is the modem. The modem controls a hypervisor that hosts the phone's operating system.

The NSA/CIA must be livid about the success of Huawei's BaLong modem.

Posted by: too scents | Sep 4 2023 17:38 utc | 20

The bigger point to me is that China and other non-Western countries are at a disadvantage because they only do R&D for profit, not for a broader purpose like humanity's future.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 4 2023 16:17 utc | 5

Surely you jest!

Posted by: Jams O'Donnell | Sep 4 2023 17:39 utc | 21

Some stuff was copied/stolen IP which is true but the vast majority of the tech that China got was actually transferred to them when manufacturing was offshored. That was part of the deal for when foreigners open factories in China, the exchange was to get cheap skilled and educated labour, and a brilliant supply chain while you transferred the technology and allowed the Chinese to have 50% ownership in the venture (the Chinese own the actual factories, machines, tools, etc. for the most part). So it really is sort of like the economic take off of Imperial Germany, Reconstruction-era America or Meiji era Japan except on steroids.

Posted by: leaf | Sep 4 2023 17:47 utc | 22

What will China do that the West hasn't tried?

Posted by: Peter Dahu | Sep 4 2023 17:23 utc | 18

How about a successful command economy?

Posted by: Jams O'Donnell | Sep 4 2023 17:48 utc | 23

Imperial decline is a process which takes time and is fueled by a long term series of convenient and expedient decisions. Reversing that process is impossible; human nature won't allow it because the necessary concatenation of decisions needed to do it are all inconvenient and non expedient. This is pretty much why all imperial declines inevitably proceed to the end point, which is collapse. It's tantamount to reversing aging.

Posted by: A. Pols | Sep 4 2023 17:49 utc | 24

My comment was prevented from posting, so I published it at my substack, "Complimentary Comment to MoA's "How Sanctions Failed To Hinder China's Development" with a link back to b's article.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 4 2023 17:51 utc | 25

Posted by: TG | Sep 4 2023 17:30 utc | 19

Consider this quote from an American education expert:
“The US has never been first in the world, nor even near the top, on any international tests. Consistently over the past half century, American students have typically scored near the median at best, but most often being in the bottom quartile. The historical record indicates that American elementary students are only average at best, their performance degrading year by year until high school seniors perform last in almost all international tests. The International Science Studies that began in high schools in the late 1960s and early 1970s found that 14-year-olds were below average and seniors scored last of all countries. In the International Mathematics tests that began in the 1960s, American high school seniors scored last of all nations. In the 1982 International Mathematics Study, high school seniors placed at the bottom on almost every test. In terms of the PISA tests, American students – placing last – are simply following the pattern that has been consistent for the past 50 years or more.”

And a quote from one news report: “In October of 2013 a new global report issued by the OECD found that Americans ranked well below the worldwide average in just about every measure of skill. In math, reading, and technology-driven problem-solving , the United States performed worse than nearly every other country… The US would have looked even worse if China had been included in this study. In basic literacy – the ability to understand and use basic written text – 80% of Americans reached only a level 2 out of 5. And in math and numerical proficiency, using numbers in daily life, they are worse … and 10% scored below level 1. Technological literacy and ability were worse too. In problem-solving in a technological environment and the use of “cognitive skills required to solve problems”, the Americans were at the bottom.” And that bottom is in math, vocabulary, language usage and technology, with Chinese students far surpassing the Americans even when using a language that is not their own.

China is estimated to spend around $6bn a year on its space programme. Although that is almost $1bn more than Russia, it is still a fraction of the American space budget, which is around $40bn a year. Despite its large budget, the US made only 19 successful space launches in 2013, compared with China’s 14 and Russia’s 31.

Posted by: Jams O'Donnell | Sep 4 2023 17:57 utc | 26

January 25, 2026. Tensions with China have escalated to the level of the Cuban Missile crisis. During an off shore wargame with Taiwan, a missile downs a nearby Chinese fighter jet. Commander Jack D. Ripper claims it was an accident.

Suddenly the skies darken as if by a massive flock of birds. Within a few minutes, every person on board the USS Armageddon is dead, individually hunted down by an individual AI drone. The drifting hulk is towed into Hainan port.

Now add tanks, missiles, aircraft.....soldiers. China might be very close to this. In particular, videogame development might lead the way sooner than you think ! Putin knows that mastery of AI equals mastery of the world (he pretty much said so). I don't see US pundits in any panic about this.

Posted by: Eighthman | Sep 4 2023 18:04 utc | 27

The bigger point to me is that China and other non-Western countries are at a disadvantage because they only do R&D for profit, not for a broader purpose like humanity's future.
Posted by: psychohistorian | Sep 4 2023 16:17 utc | 5

Until the 80ies there were companies engaged in fundamental research. Bell labs in the US,
Philips Natlab in Holland. Smaller companies sometimes had a single employee who management trusted to do generally useful stuff when left alone. That is all gone now. Today you might talk to a Chinese company that has more people in R&D than your companies' entire workforce.
It's not for everyone, but if you're young and feel you can handle it: go east.

Posted by: Passerby | Sep 4 2023 18:13 utc | 28

From b's commentary:

In his July speech, Ren said the best motivation for talented workers is passion.

“I think the material reward is not that important,” he said. “The first thing is that [the worker] finds a position he has passion for … If he can work on something he is interested in, he will have no regrets.”

That has always been the case, has it not? I remember 50 years ago reading articles about job hunting after getting my EE degree, one idea I read that was imprinted upon my soul deeply was the belief that for talented workers, challenge of the task at hand is more motivating than the prospect of higher salary in driving an employee to succeed.

China's recent rise, by recent I actually date it way back to 1949, has always been driven by passion of a down-and-out nation scrapping every inch of their nation for survival resources to do better, and better, and better. I don't know for how much longer this passion will last. I hope it will last another 75 years.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Sep 4 2023 18:22 utc | 29

One of the problems I see with American technology is the need to import vast amounts of talent from overseas. But it’s not that the talent is from overseas, as they would just naturally move their families here and become Americans themselves. The problem is that much or most of that talent comes from South Asia, where the culture is extremely harsh and unyielding. What results is a tech culture that would ultimately destroy itself from within.

After all, if the Indians, Malaysians, Pakistanis, et. al. are so smart, then why is it impossible for them to actually have one single decent tech company? And yet, they are imported to the US to work and then become managers, where they practice their harsh caste culture.

Posted by: Bao | Sep 4 2023 18:31 utc | 30

If China's military gets drones of the quality that Chinese companies produce for consumers it is likely a generation ahead of everyone else.
Russia has published a video where it drops a bomb in Donbas from a UAV that looks like a modified mass-produced Chinese drone. See the Skyzone logo at 10sec in this video (if it's not blocked where you are) https://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12476809@egNews

Posted by: Brendan | Sep 4 2023 18:32 utc | 31

To maintain a technological edge over China, we will have to spend an additional several hundred billions of dollars, train a highly-skilled workforce, educate or import more scientists and engineers, and provide broader incentives to manufacturing

While capital would really love to just be able to pilfer engineers from India, I have to imagine that the backlash towards this from professionals would be devastating politically. Unfortunately both the GOP and Democrats stand for deprofessionalization via a million H1B visas.

And I also want to say, at the expense of sounding like Sam Gompers, that the quality of engineers from India is not like the quality of engineers from the US or PRC. I have yet to meet an H1B software engineer from the subcontinent who didn't consistently need help with seemingly basic programming tasks. OTOH I have met many second generation Americans whose ancestry is from the subcontinent who went to the lowest tier schools in America but who were still more skilled than their H1B counterparts if not a cut above their white American counterparts. I think this speaks to an inferior credentialing system in India, where there is likely a lot of graft or rote memorization-based "teaching to the test" - stuff we used to criticize China for. The big companies, the FAANGs, may get the cream of the H1B crop, but the H1B engineers who are coming to small and medium sized businesses seem to be uniformly submediocre.

American kids are also not as interested in developing tech so much as simply using it to keep themselves entertained. It's rare for kids to actually take a keen interest in programming, especially when the mere fundamentals that they teach you in "coding" classes only get you so far. And that's just coding - where are the kids interested in electronics? The ones who want to be physicists? Astronauts? It's not just the US that has this problem, but kids in the US just want to be entertainers and to be entertained. Nothing inherently wrong with that - maybe that secures the US as a cultural exporter, like it did for the UK.

You know the saying, "the US is always ten years behind Europe"? Well, the UK now is where the US is heading. They are undergoing an economic transition from a core economy to a peripheral one. The standard of living of the average working class Briton is heading towards that of workers in the "middle income" nations. At one point, British workers had a chance to take the reins of political and economic power, and while this trend in living standards couldn't be reversed, it could have at least been self-managed with some dignity. British workers gave that up to be homeowners and independent contractors. The US is already a nation of homeowners, but it is also already undergoing a homelessness crisis in its major cities - which will spread as the core problem, the prioritization of the interests of homeowners specifically over those of people who need homes in general, is universal policy. The US has no public housing system even on par with the threadbare system the UK has. And for that reason, among others, our reversion to the mean will probably be catastrophic.

Posted by: fnord | Sep 4 2023 18:35 utc | 32

Chinese arrogance (their "complex of superiority") doesn't make them want to rule the world. It makes them want to shut off from the outside world, a "Centre of the World" sufficient to itself.

Posted by: Nanabozho | Sep 4 2023 18:38 utc | 33

Posted by: Brautigan | Sep 4 2023 16:44 utc | 10

Yet another comment ending with reference to an undisclosed "Them" with a "Master Plan" from our resident Nazi tolerator above me. It never ceases to amaze how far from reality some of these comments are, given the relatively high level of fact based analysis in the posts themselves.

===============================

Took the words right out of my mouth! Funny how people project onto others what is true for themselves, isn't it?

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 4 2023 19:00 utc | 34

Excellent. I really hope China and Russia will also eventually produce an operating system for personal computers. Enough of the false windows/apple dichotomy and its inbuilt us/eu/israel surveillance. And Linux will never be of any use to professionals in music, illustration or any other field that needs dedicated hardware.

Posted by: Jusses | Sep 4 2023 19:03 utc | 35

Very good article b. I would like to make two comments.

1. Technology is virtually impossible to protect.

To understand why is firstly to understand what is technology. It is 'knowledge' which is structured and systematically applied. And knowledge cannot be contained. It is spread in every communication, in every action, in every product. Protecting technology is a fool's errand. Even patents are of little value, especially if you've degraded the integrity of your legal system, such as the U.S. has.

In my opinion, there is only one method for an entity (company or country) to maintain a technological edge. That is to make one's technology widely available, thus discouraging potential competitors from spending the resources to replicate it. That ensures the entity with the technology will always have first-user advantage, and will also have a source of funding to maintain the pace of technology development.

Unfortunately for the U.S., they have done the exact opposite. By restricting technology they have given the Chinese a tremendous incentive not only to replicate U.S. technology, but to develop a technology infrastructure that enables them to develop new and unique technologies. They have unleashed a competitor that has a depth and quality of human scientific potential that far surpasses what the U.S. currently possesses or can ever hope to posses.

2. 'What remains within our power is to restore American pre-eminence'.

No, the U.S. no longer has this power.

Human creativity requires a vibrant market for new knowledge and ideas, and the products of this knowledge and these ideas. This is why market economies are so powerful. But the U.S. no longer has a 'market economy' but rather an 'economy of serial monopolies'. For monopolies, R&D is a risk and expense that is not needed, because there is little competition that requires new technologies and new products to compete. The money is much better spent inflating stock prices. As for international competition, the U.S. has shown that it prefers protectionism, coercion and sabotage to honest competition.

The degradation of U.S. infrastructure, industrial and educational systems, as a result of this serial monopolization, is readily apparent to anyone with open eyes. Without reverting to a real 'market economy' with fair and honest competition, both domestic and international, the U.S. has no chance to restore its pre-eminence.

But the 'serial monopolists' 'own' the U.S. government and its legal and electoral systems. They will never allow a return to real markets or fair and honest competition, either economic or political, as it would destroy their own power and wealth.

Unless it is able to break the hold that the 'serial monopolists' have on both its economic and political systems, I am afraid that the U.S. committed to a long slide into national oblivion.

Posted by: dh-mtl | Sep 4 2023 19:10 utc | 36

"...train a highly-skilled workforce, educate [snip] more scientists and engineers..."

That's simply not going to happen, and there is no reason for anyone here not to know it. There is a simple way for anyone to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is over for the Empire of Delusions: Become a school teacher in American classrooms.

American school districts are crying out for teachers. If you have a pulse, you can get a job teaching in American schools. The pay will be shit, and the working conditions even shittier, but you will not be doing the job to get rich. You'll be doing the job to see what is in the development pipeline for America's future. I've been there and I can assure you America's future is even more grim than you can possibly imagine.

It is not just that American youth are lead-paint stupid, though they are that too. They are lifeless and vacant. They eyes are dull and empty, their faces slack with jaws hanging loose and open. They slump formless and dissipated in their desks, inert and sessile.

This may be difficult to recognize if you have been stewing for long in the same putrefying miasma of imperial decline as the students have. The students' dull and vacant stares might seem normal to you if you if that is what you are accustomed to, but a quick visit to a Chinese classroom will shatter that illusion of normalcy.

I have tried to explain the difference in attitude and outlook between American and Chinese students before, but I am sure my efforts fell short. I'll try again anyway.

As much as American students are listless and lifeless, Chinese students are bright and enthusiastic. While American kids slouch at their desks like human meltdowns, Chinese students sit upright, attentive and alert. The difference is like night and day.

There is an infectious atmosphere of enthusiasm and optimism in China, with extremely high expectations steeled by a commitment to diligently and industriously strive to being part of realizing those expectations. Just being in the classroom with such students is energizing.

Meanwhile, being in the classroom with American students will crush your soul and suck the life out of you. These kids have no future and they know it. Furthermore, the workforce pipeline has been filling with these kinds of kids for generations now. It will take revolutionary changes in American society ("woke" ain't it) to turn this around, and that isn't likely for a couple generations either. There is no highly-skilled workforce forthcoming in America, and no tsunami of scientists and engineers poised to break across the American economy either. That's just wishful thinking.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 4 2023 19:46 utc | 37

Ren is certainly correct in his assessment of motivation. In a university Economics department you will find professors who blithely teach that human development is driven by profit, while in the office across the hall a fanatic, marginally paid, researcher labors into the night on the next breakthrough. And of course the brilliant guys who work R&D in America surrender their copyright rights to the predatory capitalists who run the company--and their rich shareholders. In a nutshell, China succeeds because it is run by flexible Communists who constantly adjust to material reality. That's what Marxism is. Not a rigid ideology a la the USSR. But a work in progress aimed at common prosperity that harnesses and guides the market, and overrules profit when it does not serve the public interest.

Posted by: Richard | Sep 4 2023 19:48 utc | 38

The whole concept of IP and protected markets thereby needs scapping. It is detrimental to humankind. The new rule is ideas get shared. There's a bunch of other stuff that would have to change around it too: I can already hear the lawyers complaining about their loss of intellectual property. Fine. Let the AI take them out.

Posted by: oracle | Sep 4 2023 19:51 utc | 39

Comparing number of university graduates with a country of 1.4 billion population is not fair. So, let's look Russia, with ca 150 mil population, graduates the same number STEM students as USA. As a graduate of edu system similar to Russia's, I can tell you that EVERYONE in primary school starts biology, chemistry, physics, geography, history and 1st foreign language at age of 10, and somehow everybody passes these classes. [ an F in one course would result in hold back]. That is the same for future hair dressers and chemical engineers. in high school chemistry, physics, etc. continue for2-3 years unless one picks emphasis and gets extra hours of expanded physics/ math or chem/bio. Universities only look at grades in relevant subjects and courses focus on the major, since everyone had already had 5-6 years of literature art history geography etc.

I do not understand American flexibility of kids choosing how much math or science they take, and while having A is a rare occurrence past grade 4, somehow all kids are capable to do trig or quadratic equations before high school.

Posted by: Agnieszka | Sep 4 2023 20:01 utc | 40

Laguerre 14

What about paper? I rebound dozens of theological rants like Fox's Book of Martyrs. Libraries of wall to Wall treatises of theological tripe

Posted by: Giyane | Sep 4 2023 20:15 utc | 41

Peter Dahu | Sep 4 2023 17:23 utc | 18 ...What will China do that the West hasn't tried?...

A better question was "What does China not do in order to avoid the West's systemic pitfalls?" In short: It reins in the worst parasites.

A good article from 2021: "The Consequences of Moving from Industrial to Financial Capitalism" (my emphasis)

...the Chinese economy doesn’t really have to pay a banking class because banking is the most important public utility of all. Banking is what China has kept in the hands of government and Chinese banks don’t lend for the same reasons that American banks lend.
...its objective in banking is not to make a profit and interest, not to make capital gains and speculation. It creates money to fund actual means of production to build factories, to build research and development, to build transportation facilities, to build infrastructure. Banks in America don’t lend for that kind of thing.

A number from 2015: The Economy’s Greatest Illness: The Rise of Unproductive Finance

...research shows that only around 15% of the money flowing from financial institutions actually makes its way into business investment. The rest gets moved around a closed financial loop, via the buying and selling of existing assets, like real estate, stocks, and bonds.


@Jams O'Donnell | Sep 4 2023 17:48 utc | 23 [China has]...a successful command economy

From the first source above:

...basically free markets and libertarianism is adopting central planning, but with central planning by the banks. America is a much more centrally planned economy than China.

Posted by: OttoE | Sep 4 2023 20:15 utc | 42

Personally I am very concerned about private companies holding my entire I D , from passport to Google searches, from what my enemies have written about me to what I have written about my enemies.

This is a control-addict obsession that every country and global enterprise from Islamic State to the Chinese Communist Party feel entitled to steal our privacy. Musk has just cottoned onto the scam offering recruitment agency services, which entities him to access Full IDs.

Western culture of Liberalism traditionally instructs us to be non-judgemental but neo-liberalism is highly judgemental and intolerant of adherents to traditional mores.

China tries to distract its nefarious spying by pointing to Western spies , which is strong evidence that China has no qualms about lying. I'm afraid that there are enough liars already in the West, without another branch of Satan's followers opening in China. The terrorism of Turkey and the Mughal empires is vastly different from traditional Jewish and Christian values.

The only difference being that the West is hypocritical about its violence, while the East prefers to wear its violence on its sleeve.
Islam is under threat from the Usukis creating terrorists to give Islam a very bad reputation. We don't need a China that is emboldened by its economic strength to fight Usukis militarily, because that means us.
Unfortunately the idiots in power in Usukis are already emboldened to have Iraqis, Ukrainians, Africans , Libyans , be gladiators for their Satanic amusement. The danger is that they will provoke China, for their pornograhic amusement of nihilistic destruction.

It won't be China's fault if they strike back to Western provocation.

Posted by: Giyane | Sep 4 2023 20:48 utc | 43

Why does China copy so much?!?!

https://thesaker.is/nations-built-on-lies-how-the-us-became-rich/

The USSA only got rich by copying, stealing, modifying, and then using its position of isolation from land wars to build a military with which it could bully the world. I wonder if the NYT, WaPo or any of the others will write articles asking why China DOES NOT copy the other type of "inventions" that are so prevalent in the USSA today: toxic financial derivatives, usurious credit, and the bailing out of the worst actors in those regards while simultaneously (and by design) screwing the tax payer. Kinda doubt it.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 20:59 utc | 44

@37 W. Gruff: A fine piece of writing. For thoroughness, let me ask what the general time-period was when you were teaching in the U.S. I often hear comments from people of my age cohort (60s) decrying the initiative, knowledge, awareness of the younger generations, and I tend to dismiss it as "that awful Rock music is melting their brains" sort of talk. I don't have a lot of contact with the younger generations, so I'm asking what others are actually seeing, and hoping for "our generation was better" type perspectives to get filtered out so we can see the actual picture.

As some of you know, I have advocated for many years (here at MOA and elsewhere) for a full-on tsunami of engagement - at all levels and functional roles in society - in new product development (PD). I see PD as the mechanism of human adaptation and evolution. Note that my definition of "product" isn't "toaster" or "computer chip". A new product is a new solution to a human problem. Products are composed of technology and material. "Technology" is simply "what humans know how to do".

Religions, language, numbers, math, negotiating skill ... they're all products, just like the physical implementations like a hammer, a car or a smart-phone.

To the point here: I have spent many years trying to engage my local Americans in the activity of product development. They seem to see it as alien - something "somebody else" does.

Some of you remember the origins of Alibaba. It was basically a national flea market (public square, full of tables, everyone hawking the goods they produced) that enabled a huge swath of Chinese people to buy components from someone (at Alibaba), formulate and build a new product from those components, and then sell that value-add product to others (on Alibaba). I remember being absolutely blown away at the depth (variation) and breadth (how many involved) of Alibaba. It was a huge boiling pot of innovation and effort and economic activity.

There's still - at this late date - nothing like Alibaba here in the U.S. Not because Ebay or Amazon or FB couldn't have produced the tech, but I'm wondering if it's because there are too few people that would want to use it.

Back in the day, I built a prototype of web app that brought together new product ideas, people, and the resources the participants controlled. Sort of "primorial soup for innovation". The intent was create a context / enable / facilitate new product development. You may say "that's like Kickstarter". Not quite. The website facilitated all the work that must happen _before_ it gets posted / announced on Kickstarter. Team-building. Deal-making. Concept definition. Prototype. Market testing. That sort of stuff. Kickstarter is more aimed at financing the roll-out and getting some early adopters for a full-on market test. Latter-stages of PD.

I remember showing the website to local political and "economic development" officials.

"Dead cat bounce" is an apt phrase to describe the experience.

I was astonished at their (vapid) reaction. Political people: "It's too complicated". Econ devel officals: "What _is_ this thing?"

I'd be curious to hear of others' experience with product development (now .vs. before) or for those who've done it in more than one country, e.g. "here .vs. there".

Posted by: Tom Pfotzer | Sep 4 2023 21:04 utc | 45

Posted by: Maracatu | Sep 4 2023 16:56 utc | 12
Posted by: laguerre | Sep 4 2023 17:00 utc | 14

I'm impatient, as an American, with the notion that because we "stole" Britain's technology at some point in history, thereby gradually relegating their economy to second class, if there's any cause and effect there, therefore we are somehow morally obligated to sacrificing any technological advantage we might have to China because we have no moral right to that advantage. We are not "hypocrites" complaining about what China has done. If we speak realistically, we are describing what they've done, insomuch as that's what's happened. It helps us to know what we need to do next. They are our competitors here. In other circumstances they may well be our good allies, but let's be clear minded. We don't owe them anything any more than they owe us anything. If it's in their interest to "steal" our technology, then so they will. If it's in our interest to sanction them in some way, then sanction we should. If not, not.

Posted by: jonboinAR | Sep 4 2023 21:10 utc | 46

Talent recruitment has long been important for Huawei.
------------------------------------------------------------
Xerox sent me to Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburgh in 1989 (campus recruiting for engineers).

Incredibly bright kids all gave me the same answer, corporate America no longer wants to hire white males. Xerox was looking for Hispanic males that year.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 4 2023 21:14 utc | 47

"To maintain a technological edge over China, we will have to spend an additional several hundred billions of dollars, train a highly-skilled workforce, educate or import more scientists and engineers,..."
Across the board of manufacturing in America, including agriculture and services, wages have to be so high for workers to afford basically secure living that America can never be competitive internationally.
It is not enough to just graduate more STEM students, but those students will need an affordable life, including the chance to educate their children. And, I doubt they will be comfortable living in a tech bubble, surrounded by the precarious masses.
Then, to turn design into practice requires workers, also well fed and secure. Again, they will not be comfortable being the only ones to enjoy a decent life.
To prosper, America needs a life redesign where finance is just a bank account or a mortgage.

Posted by: Tedder | Sep 4 2023 21:15 utc | 48

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 4 2023 19:46 utc | 37

Going to have to disagree with some of that. I've got siblings who teach, one of whom quit never to return after taking a job in a school district I won't name, but will give you a hint: "Hands up, don't shoot" from 2014. The other sibling is doing fine and their students are bright, motivated and competitive. This sibling also previously taught in rural West Virginia and the situation was mostly the opposite with a few exceptions.

So it varies greatly by school, district, and part of the country. But it's not usually a factor of USsian kids being, by nature, slack jawed morons (whether due to mothers smoking or doing drugs while pregnant, malnutrition, pollution, etc.); rather it's "the system." And by "the system" I mean American style gangster capitalism which preaches greed as a virtue, heck THE virtue and inculcates Americans of all ages with the inability to delay gratification. Want that $60,000 middle of the line Chevy pickup truck? Don't worry, you don't have to save a dime! Here's a 12 year loan at 4% interest (better or worse depending on your Credit Score™). Same doesn't apply with housing, BTW.

Anyway, a lot of kids see this propaganda and they expect things to be handed to them without having to put in years of hard work. This is especially damaging to the kids who *are* born with lower IQs; a lot of them become opioid or meth addicts and homeless. But the ones who are capable of becoming engineers, chemists, physicists or physicians - assuming they can get college paid for in this usurious society - are herded toward Wall Street or Sillycone Valley type jobs. Everything from "financial planning" to day trading to quant to video game programmers to animators. A huge swath of mostly useless if not actually deleterioius careers for any functioning nation state.

Throw in lack of health care, studen loan debt, lack of public transportation (or high speed rail between metros), a parasitic military industrial complex (which, btw sucks a good portion of the engineers, physicists, chemists, etc. away from productive civilian jobs, even if indirectly) and a bloated foreign policy apparatus, and that's where we're at. Don't get me wrong, if it wasn't for the Cold War (or another "conflict" that would've been invented in its absense) then I fully understand that a lot of the scientific and engineering breakthroughs of the 20th century in the US might not have happened. A parasitic military industrial complex is, afterall, good for something.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 21:19 utc | 49

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 21:19 utc | 49

I should have added the following, but got caught up in my tangential rant.

Another barrier for American kids to higher education for careers in science and engineering (and there is a need for SOME lawyers, authors, sculptors, religious studies, etc.) is the way our society is structured in general. As people become poorer by way of plateauing wages not keeping up with inflation, and the inability to afford basic necessities due to low wages combined with corporate and bankster greed, their parents (or parent - singular) do not have the time or energy to give children the attention they need OUTSIDE of school.

So the kids are left to spend their days and nights with their "screens", whiling away time they could be reading and learning on TikTok and other "apps." Hell, this is evident among my own friends in their 30s and 40s. 85% of them have never read a book of any kind (except portions of the Bible of course) outside of school. When I ask them to expound on their opinions on virtually any topic, the answer is a YouTube link to some idiot yammering into a webcam/mic with stuid graphics and sound effects, or a cartoon style animation. ZERO. ATTENTION.SPAN. And this results from an upbringing where their parents are not engaged because in most cases (my anecdotal ones anyway, I'm sure there are plenty of lazy parents too) they don't have the time and they're always tired and stressed from the experience of trying to get by in this FIRE sector, Hollyweird, and Social Media/SillyCone Valley dominated society.

I 100% believe that if we implemented some sort of free community college, took the screens away form the kids and put strict regulations on the finance sector, the decline could at least be slowed.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 21:32 utc | 50

Excellent. I really hope China and Russia will also eventually produce an operating system for personal computers. Enough of the false windows/apple dichotomy and its inbuilt us/eu/israel surveillance. And Linux will never be of any use to professionals in music, illustration or any other field that needs dedicated hardware.

Posted by: Jusses | Sep 4 2023 19:03 utc | 35

They already have!

INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 4 2023 21:36 utc | 51

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 4 2023 19:46 utc | 37

I've seen the same thing in the classrooms in California. I feel bad for most of the kids. The potential is there, but they have been raised cradle to grave to be docile consumers, so the outcome is not surprising. They're fatted like cattle, encouraged to stay home, be suspicious of everyone, and consume. Eventually, they all have to face reality and find a wage slave job that pays nothing and if lucky ensures their ability to live in a structure and not rough outdoors. Then they start to get it, but it's too late and when they come home exhausted from demeaning work with no social value, they get to see their beautiful children being converted into dead eyed consumers too.

Meanwhile, China's culture is healthy and raises the youth to be active producers. It also provides all those kids with infrastructure and avenues to pursue their interests. They feel safe on the streets, see a future ahead of them, and the classroom is led by the teacher, not the most antisocial misfit in the class. They also are not subjected to psyops that pit them all against their fellows.

That's the state of things, but the times are changing quickly. The shocks in store tend to wake people out the trance. One positive development I've noticed is that more youth in the US today seem to know they're in for hard times. In this environment of decline the imperial propaganda has weakened considerably. They are young, so radical change in a healthy direction remains possible until mid to late 20s.

What's lacking is an organized movement of reeducation. A parallel cultural/political force in the US. Something organic of by and for the people themselves, not manufactured on high to generate easy profits for a small group of hustlers.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Sep 4 2023 21:38 utc | 52

Posted by: OttoE | Sep 4 2023 20:15 utc | 42
«A better question was "What does China not do in order to avoid the West's systemic pitfalls?" In short: It reins in the worst parasites.»

Unfortunately there is a gigantic amount of financial speculation in the PRC, I watch popular PRC video shows on Viki.com and currently the protagonists are venture capitalists, corporate lawyers and occasionally some tech guy.

Even worse there is a colossal amount of real estate speculation, by local governments, and government officials and CCP members; I would guess that most CCP members and all CCP cadres have small or large real estate portfolios (many of them have real estate portfolios abroad too), and so have people who made their money with industry and then put it in real estate, just like in China-HK, China-Taiwan and Korea-south, because the profits from real estate are much bigger and safer than from running an industry.

When most of the upper and middle, political and business, classes of a state make most of their money from real estate rentierism that state is doomed to long term decline and ever more right-wing (reaganism) policies, and probably the PRC is already at that stage.

My impression is that the top leaders of the CCP have realized that and are trying to slowly disinflate the real estate market, but I wonder whether the mass of the CCP cadres will revolt against them and replace them if their portfolios fall too much in price.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 4 2023 21:38 utc | 53

I live in an area where HS2 is busy. Every otgercweek.they drop us a letter telling us which roads they are going to close at night, diversions etc.

The mosque behind my house is planning to spray the back.of my garden with Sodium Chlorate to kill the Japanese Knotweed. It won't kill the knotweed but it might kill me.

The mosque's mentality is like the hegemony of the US in Ukraine. Our pre-eminent authority outweighs the interests of all of you. They actually believe in their own superiority over anybody else in the community.

The arrogance of Usukis and the arrogance of the South Asian imams is a marriage made in Heaven. The proxies love the British establishment and the British Establishment love their islamist proxies.

This marriage of right wing militarism has massive implications all across the world , in Africa. M.E., Asia , in Australia and Europe. The question of China is more like HS2. In 20 years' time China's attitude to Usukis provocations will lead either to War, or to the destruction of the USUKIS right wing plus its Islamist proxy 's malignancy.

We don't know the future. But in my humble opinion, the instincts of Socialism are much closer to the instincts of Islam and Christianty.
Islsmism , political ( lying ) Islam and Western hypocrisy about its conventional and nuclear violence are two manufestations of massive hypocrisy.

If China is as clean-hearted with its win win ideology, as the West and its Islamist proxy are duplicitous, then China will succeed imho.


Posted by: Giyane | Sep 4 2023 21:44 utc | 54

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 4 2023 21:14 utc | 47
«Incredibly bright kids all gave me the same answer, corporate America no longer wants to hire white males. Xerox was looking for Hispanic males that year.»

And why should Xerox etc. want employees who are "lazy, entitled, overpaid", instead of H1B visa holders or hungry minorities?

USA and UK think tanks have advanced the notion that their government should stop funding research and teaching in STEM subjects with taxpayers money, because USA businesses can hire any number of chinese engineers or indian programmers that are trained at the expense of non-american taxpayers, and are "harder working, more obedient, and cheaper" than white american ones; or USA businesses can simply offshore the R&D and manufacturing to India or China-Taiwan etc. What distinguishes a graduate from Kansas from one from Taipei or Madras or Bangkok?

USA white male graduates (and non-graduates) are simply unnecessary.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 4 2023 21:47 utc | 55

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 21:32 utc | 50
«their parents (or parent - singular) do not have the time or energy to give children the attention they need OUTSIDE of school.»

This has always been the case with immigrant families, and for example has resulted in numbers of them becoming (e.g. irish/jewish/italian) gangsters. But there have also always been "tiger moms" that have worn themselves to push their children hard to turn their sons into valuable pension assets, because they believed that education would help them get ahead. This instead has very rarely been the case with black mothers, because they reckoned that no matter how well educated their sons could be their colour would prevent them to get ahead. But italian/jewish/irish mothers thought that their sons looked similar enough to WASPs that they would be less discriminated than the blacks.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 4 2023 21:55 utc | 56

Altai @ 4

Have you noticed the words "industrial policy" seem to have left the lexicon in the Anglosphere?

Industrial policy is anathema to neoliberalism, industrial policy is outlawed in the west. The market and the market only will determine what society needs across the spectrum: capital (financialization) military (neocon) cultural (woke) and nothing is going to dismantle neoliberailism or reverse its course, it is a long laid plan, since the 1920s. Neoliberalism will change when it collapses, which is a long way off.

Which is why Replicator will fail, it replicates the wrong thing, it replicates the gizmos that China makes not the foundation that made it successful.

There is a way for the west to combine neoliberalism and industrial policy, it's called fascism, the creation of a corporate state, it is quickly moving there, in fact to survive against multipolarism the west has no choice, well, it could come to its senses but I wouldn't count on it.

“Fascism should more properly be called corporatism since it is the merger of the state and corporate power.” – Benito Mussolini

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Sep 4 2023 21:57 utc | 57


“I have been given a DJI drone as a gift. “

Happy birthday b. (?)

‘Ren said the best motivation for talented workers is passion.
“I think the material reward is not that important,” he said. “The first thing is that [the worker] finds a position he has passion for … If he can work on something he is interested in, he will have no regrets.” ‘

Ren sounds like the C21st Confucius! I’d like to read more of his philosophy.

I have no regrets. At this oasis. Knowledge is Freedom.

However, as I believe, there is no ‘America’ as a long existing civilisation, like all the thousands and tens of thousands year old ones still extant. Many others rose and disappeared in that time scale. The USA will be one of these.
There’ll be some artefacts left - some gaudy pornification videos or some such. Mickey Mouse? Barbie!!???

Won’t be much loss. Except for its record of violence and death.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Sep 4 2023 22:00 utc | 58

Tom Pfotzer @45: "...let me ask what the general time-period was when you were teaching in the U.S."

I taught back in the 1990s, then when I returned from expat life over the decade prior to now I job-hopped trying to find the teaching lifestyle as I imagined it should be. Teaching university wasn't bad, but you cannot live on adjunct instructor salary.

While it was only 20 years, the decline in student engagement in the US between the 1990s and the 2010s was shocking. I initially assumed I was just in a dysfunctional school, or district, or region of the country when I came back to the US, but as far as I've been able to determine the problem is society-wide. There is currently no interest whatsoever among American students in acquiring skills or gaining knowledge to better themselves. Perhaps it is because now they get the same trophy/diploma whether or not they try; applying effort gets them the same reward as applying no effort, but motivation cannot be solely extrinsic. Successful education requires the students be intrinsically motivated, and American students do not seem to come equipped with that anymore.

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 4 2023 22:01 utc | 59

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 4 2023 19:46 utc | 37
«what is in the development pipeline for America's future. I've been there and I can assure you America's future is even more grim than you can possibly imagine.»

Like so many you confuse "America" with the servant classes that somehow survive in it, in a constant struggle to make do with less; Of course there are servants in shops or that do deliveries or mow lawns or make coffees, but they are not Real Americans, they are just extras, NPCs, part of the background, like the birds or the moles or the cats or the fishes. SO many of them are immigrants, legal or illegal, and cannot vote (except in D areas of course).

America is the owners and executives of the big corporations and their trusties, and they have been doing very well since Reagan and Clinton, and they got "Too Big To Prosecute" and "Too Big To Fail" enacted as part of the real constitution of the USA, as well as a Supreme Court decision that paying "ingratiating" retainers to serving politicians is a constitutional right.

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 4 2023 22:05 utc | 60

@tom_q_collins That's not the reason the U.S is a drug addict country. And suggesting only low IQ Americans take part in that is a little naive and simplistic. Western countries are similarly entitled and enstill unrealistic expectations. but only the U.S has such God awful PATHETIC drug epidemic.

Americans in general are selfish and hedonistic. But not stupid. China is certainly not individualistic shit hole

Posted by: Zukelulu | Sep 4 2023 22:08 utc | 61

Posted by: William Gruff | Sep 4 2023 19:46 utc | 37
«Meanwhile, being in the classroom with American students will crush your soul and suck the life out of you. These kids have no future and they know it.»

In the 1724 century Bernard de Mandeville wrote the manual for upper classes, in an essay arguing against state-provided education:

“Essay on charity" (1724): “The Plenty and Cheapness of Provisions depends in a great measure on the Price and Value that is set upon this Labour, and consequently the Welfare of all Societies, even before they are tainted with Foreign Luxury, requires that it should be perform’d by such of their Members as in the first Place are sturdy and robust and never used to Ease or Idleness, and in the second, soon contented as to the necessaries of Life; [...] From what has been said, it is manifest, that, in a free nation, where slaves are not allowed of, the surest wealth consists in a multitude of laborious poor; [...] To make the society happy and people easier under the meanest circumstances, it is requisite that great numbers of them should be ignorant as well as poor;”

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 4 2023 22:10 utc | 62

The U.S values hard work. The U.S is full of failures who worked hard and never got the results they expected.

Posted by: Zukelulu | Sep 4 2023 22:12 utc | 63

The U.S values hard work. The U.S is full of failures who worked hard and never got the results they expected.

Posted by: Zukelulu | Sep 4 2023 22:12 utc | 63

Apart from market power it’s a random walk, 100 idiots decide to lead 100 stupid projects, 99 very fairly fail, the 100th idiot that through sheer luck and circumstances gets lucky… just hear him and everybody else praise his genious… the 100th idiot…

Posted by: Newbie | Sep 4 2023 22:17 utc | 64

Chinese companies are run by engineers and scientists. Chinese hospitals are run by doctors, and so on.
American companies are run by arrogant and ignorant MBA types, accountants and finance cassino specialists.

Americans believe that you can get a CEO from a soft-drink company and put him managing a computer company. And to make things worse, you now have all sorts of nepotism running rampant. A stupid scammer like Carly Fiorina would never get as high as she got in China.

America's biggest enemies are The Wall Street, Harvard Business School and the infiltrated occupiers from Israel.

Posted by: Marcos E | Sep 4 2023 22:18 utc | 65

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Sep 4 2023 21:38 utc | 52
«Meanwhile, China's culture is healthy and raises the youth to be active producers.»

Unfortunately there is a colossal amount of graduate unemployment and underemployment in the PRC (and China-Taiwan and Korea-south and Japan etc.) because in those countries when sons got into the mandarinate that was a sure guarantee of an affluent old age for their mothers, so "tiger moms" have been pushing mercilessly their sons to get a degree. Like in "the west" however degrees from non-elite universities are next to worthless (thus the enormous importance of "gaokao" in the PRC and "985" universities or getting into SNU/KAIST in Korea or UTokyo in Japan).

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 4 2023 22:22 utc | 66

Posted by: Zukelulu | Sep 4 2023 22:12 utc | 63
«The U.S values hard work. The U.S is full of failures who worked hard and never got the results they expected.»

Actually the USA dream is to MAKE MONEY FAST with no work whatsoever with real estate and stock market booming prices and rentierism.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-22/opendoor-open-faces-an-expensive-path-to-profitability-in-real-estate
“From the minute the average couple busy a home they're constantly calculating how much they'll make when they sell it”

Those who work hard are usually labeled "suckers" and "losers" (also known as "immigrants" usually). A little anecdote is quite amusing:

http://delong.typepad.com/sdj/2013/08/the-21st-century-social-capital-of-the-church-state-of-deseret.html#comment-6a00e551f08003883401901ece8749970
“As a graduate student in the 30's Arrington was at one of the national academic conventions (don't remember if it was economics or sociology) and got into a conversation with one of the big names in the profession who alluded to the fact that Arrington was a Mormon. LA asked how he knew that, and the answer was that Arrington had mentioned that his family grew sugar beets, and that they did the farm work themselves; anybody other than a Mormon would have left the dirty work to a Mexican.”

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 4 2023 22:29 utc | 67

@Blissex No most white Americans look down on bums and unemployed ppl

Posted by: Zuluuulu | Sep 4 2023 22:32 utc | 68

Whose chips are being used for RF so for the analog portion of the radio? How about the mixed signal portion of the radio?

Posted by: Alaric | Sep 4 2023 22:37 utc | 69

Posted by: Zukelulu | Sep 4 2023 22:08 utc | 61

The intent was not to state (or imply) that ONLY lower IQ Americans get addicted to opioids. However, I would wager that the majority are in the lower half of the intelligence bell curve.

And you're also being naïve and simplistic when you say that it's strictly a function of a hedonistic culture. Do you have any familiarity with, for example, Appalachia, Alaska or Native American communities? There is nothing to do in a lot of those areas post-deindustrialization, so some addicts were simply seeking an escape with no other prospects visible to them. However, a lot of opioid addicts were initially irresponsibly given strong (deceptively marketed) prescription pain killers for injuries (to include returning Forever War soldiers) and then spiral into addiction and homelessness. This really applies in a lot of places in the USSA. These people - also due to lack of jobs - will sometimes sell their Rx drugs to others to make money which furthers the web of addiction. I'd say very little of it has to do (initially anyway) with hedonism.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 22:43 utc | 70

Posted by: Blissex | 55 and 56

Agree with you on both points. I know plenty of "hungry" immigrant families because I was raised on the border and live in Texas. Many of my friends in elementary thru high school were children of immigrants, including "illegal." Nearly all of those kids went on to become lawyers, doctors, IT workers, scientists and engineers. One other aspect of those communities is a strong bond with others in their situation, with whom they often co-habitate (or live in the same neighborhood-like developments). So there's a support network that is often missing in some other cultures.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 22:47 utc | 71

Posted by: Zukelulu | Sep 4 2023 22:08 utc | 61

and

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 22:43 utc | 70

I guess I should clarify my statements on IQ/intelligence by adding that many opioid addicts suffer from some kind of mental illness, for which no easy or affordable treatment is available to them. The mental illness/depression may pre-date their addiction or it can be a result. Point being, in an arch-capitalist society like ours, there aren't many off-ramps for them so a lot of them end up on the street.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 22:50 utc | 72

Apologies, I should have asked this in one of my other posts, but I am completely unable to access Strategic Culture now. I'm aware that their .org domain was rescinded, but not even the new .su domain works for me. Is anyone able to get the page to load?

https://strategic-culture.su/

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 22:52 utc | 73

USA white male graduates (and non-graduates) are simply unnecessary.
Posted by: Blissex | Sep 4 2023 21:47 utc | 55
----------------------------------------------------
You must never have bumped into any of the best and the brightest.

My oldest step son, enrolled in a public urban school, would bring some seven class mates to play in our basement. The class valedictorian was the daughter of the head of the English Department at the University of Rochester where her father was a math professor. Early admission Stanford. The other kids were not quite as bright. Scot managed early admission Cornell.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Sep 4 2023 22:59 utc | 74

Uh huh, they've been partners since Nixon.

Posted by: Josh | Sep 4 2023 23:14 utc | 75

Tom_Q: The Strategic Culture site just opened for me out here in the Dustbowl.

By the way: Kudos all around for one of the most thoughtful (and literate!) discussions I’ve seen on this site in quite some time.

Posted by: malenkov | Sep 4 2023 23:16 utc | 76

Excellent. I really hope China and Russia will also eventually produce an operating system for personal computers. Enough of the false windows/apple dichotomy and its inbuilt us/eu/israel surveillance. And Linux will never be of any use to professionals in music, illustration or any other field that needs dedicated hardware.

Posted by: Jusses | Sep 4 2023 19:03 utc | 35

They kind of have via Linux; Astra (Russia) and China have a couple I believe (name escapes me at the moment). However, to say Linux will never be of any use to professionals is a bit premature. Already Linux have a prominent role in the server market and it appears they're gaining on the desktop market given the current state of Windows. IMHO, China will likely take Linux to the next level once their IT software sector matures.

As for specialized hardware, it's only a matter of time before someone comes up with an answer or when for-profit corporations are convinced to start catering to the Linux community. And they're not required to make their product free as long it's strictly applications.

Posted by: Ian2 | Sep 4 2023 23:17 utc | 77

The devil is in the details, and some of the details shared by b here are incorrect, and many important details have been withheld, producing a picture that doesn't really give an accurate overview.

b says:

"In 2019, when Trump sanctioned Huawei by denying it access to modern chips, I wrote:

Huawei currently uses U.S. made chips in many of its smartphones and networking products. But it has long expected the U.S. move and diligently prepared for it:
Soon U.S. chip companies will have lost all their sales to the second largest smartphone producer of the world. That loss will not be just temporarily, it will become permanent."

This was wrong then and it's still wrong. Huawei didn't use U.S. made chips in its smartphones. It used 5nm chips produced right across the Taiwan Strait at TSMC. As a matter of fact, when the US, through the DPP-led Taiwan government, stopped the sales of high value semiconductor wafers to Huawei, the company was responsible for 13% of TSMC's sales. The fact of the matter is that the US doesn't fab wafers for smart phone manufacturers.

Next, the big rollout of the new Huawei smartphone, without, of course, any background about how Huawei's international sales of smartphones have collapsed in the past two+ years due to the lack of access to cutting edge chips from TSMC and operating systems from Google:

The moment of reckoning has come.

Last week Huawei presented its new cell phone Mate 60 Pro. Since the sanctions were implemented the company has developed genuinely new CPUs for cell phones as well as for other equipment. Bloomberg reports of the teardown and preliminary analysis of the processor by a U.S. company. It is fairly complicate system-on-a-chip that is to 100% made in China:

"Kirin 9000S teardown so surprising

Includes CPU, GPU, 5G modem, ISP, DSP + NPU (w/ Ascend lite/tiny cores + TPU)

All this squeezed into 110mm2 die w/o stacking
...
Oh, 9000S in teardown/testing showed better overall CPU performance & power consumption than 9000 & SD 888 + had better peak CPU performance than SD 8 Gen 1 all this w/o advanced packaging."


The CPU is fabbed by SMIC, and it's a 7nm chip, which is nearly two generations (third in planning here in Taiwan) behind the technology being used at TSMC. Yes, this whole setup is an accomplishment, as all components are domestically produced in China! No, it is not cutting edge technology for smart phones. As I said, it is still far behind what's coming out of TSMC. The big barriers for SMIC at present is the lack of EUV lithography, machines that are necessary for 5nm and 3nm nodes. ASML is the only company that produces and sells these machines. Are the Chinese currently reverse engineering EUV machinery from ASML with plans for domestic production. Absolutely! Can we expect them to succeed within the next 5 years? Doubtful.

"Eventually, China, which graduates more engineers each year than the rest of the world combined, will develop its own substitutes, as ASML, the world’s premier maker of chip lithography equipment, avers."

I have a lot of respect for the CEO of ASML, who dared speak truth to power in the interest of his company. He looks far into the future, and comes to logical, rational conclusions. The west should have continued to sell to China to prevent them from developing everything domestically. To paraphrase his words: First, you are taking away my biggest growth market - China. Please understand, China already has bought some EUV machinery. Now they are going to ramp up their study of the equipment, reverse engineer it, and start domestic production. Eventually they will reach a level of quality that will enable them to supply their domestic market. But the story doesn't end there. As they make adjustments and improve the quality of their EUV Lithography machines, they will target the export market, and they will be able to undersell ASML. Their costs are lower. That will be the end of my company."

Posted by: Frankie P | Sep 4 2023 23:17 utc | 78

Yes, the same Nixon who took the usd off the gold standard, and from exactly that time.

Posted by: Josh | Sep 4 2023 23:18 utc | 79

So, you know, there's that...

Posted by: Josh | Sep 4 2023 23:18 utc | 80

Posted by: Blissex | Sep 4 2023 22:22 utc | 66

Yes, well, it's still capitalism. Nonetheless, how's the homelessness there? Suicide? Drug use? Violent crime?

Viewed next to the hellhole of US imperialism, it looks very healthy and whatever their faults the leadership appears to be sane. I'm sure the youth picks up on that.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Sep 4 2023 23:25 utc | 81

Also, by the way, Beijing has received a plethora of rather notorious guests over the last few months, ranging from Bill Gates to Henry Kissinger, rather publicly I might add. Also, and from about the beginning of that procession of visits, they have been dealing with a steady stream of natural disasters, which the government has heroically, and on all television/radio/internet channels, been saving everyone from, because they are totally super great, and nobody can do without being saved by them, and stuff.

Posted by: Josh | Sep 4 2023 23:26 utc | 82

The US strategy of hampering China's economic growth would only work IF they actually have coherent policies to reindustrialize themselves. Unfortunately for the US, they only know how to kill, spreading mayhem around the globe.

Posted by: Ian2 | Sep 4 2023 23:28 utc | 83

Frankie P said

[b said] "Huawei currently uses U.S. made chips in many of its smartphones and networking products. But it has long expected the U.S. move and diligently prepared for it:
Soon U.S. chip companies will have lost all their sales to the second largest smartphone producer of the world. That loss will not be just temporarily, it will become permanent."

This was wrong then and it's still wrong. Huawei didn't use U.S. made chips in its smartphones. It used 5nm chips produced right across the Taiwan Strait at TSMC

No, Frankie, b is correct. Until this most recent rollout, most Huawei phones used Snapdragon 888 chips, which are made by Qualcomm. You are correct about TSML fabbing chips for Huawei, but once US sanctions kicked in Huawei had to live off the supply off chips and then it later used Snapdragon 888s.

Posted by: schmoe | Sep 4 2023 23:38 utc | 84

You know, kinda like they did with the covid thing...

Posted by: Josh | Sep 4 2023 23:39 utc | 85

For those who want to track China's chip industry, there is a website called Sinodefenceforum that has a section dedicated to semiconductors.

Posted by: schmoe | Sep 4 2023 23:41 utc | 86

It seems to me that the US's permanently negative commentary on China is fuelled by envy and victimhood.

The sort of stuff a failed state and crumbling empire churns out to blame everyone else for causing its own problems. And what a mess the US is in compared to countries like China now.

None of the US anti-China arguments hold up, especially concerning property rights theft given that the US has benefited from the cheap Chinese labour to manufacture many of its products within China for years, and like every other Asian country including India (which it never criticises),they eventually decide to manufacture only for their own benefit, not just for the rich western profiteers. The US and collective west has also profited from selling tertiary education to Chinese students for many years, so what would you expect.

The US already did this with Japan in the lead up to WWII but of course it never learns anything about its own behaviour and the outcomes it produces.

Posted by: George | Sep 5 2023 0:07 utc | 87

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 4 2023 17:51 utc | 25

Thank you for your "offshore" comment/essay, karlof1. Talk about multipolarity! The opening photo is spectacular, reminds me of the opening and closing spectacles of the Olympic games in China, that amazing 'birdsnest'.

And also the old song: 'How you gonna keep 'em down on the farm, after they've seen Pa-ree?' keeps running through my head.

Thank you, b. Future historians will have a field day with this one.

Posted by: juliania | Sep 5 2023 1:07 utc | 88

For William Gruff:

Yea man, I get it. The funny thing is that when you have even moderately motivated kids, with decent intellect, and a smidgen of work ethic, those kids FAR outperform 95+% of their peers. Like my kid. But… It’s not enough. You have to have a nation full of those kind of kids.

And what will those better performers do when the American system stifles their opportunities? Take the first flight out and work where excellence is valued and rewarded. Nobody wants to endure bullshit and the tyranny of the imbeciles. Problem is, as so many state here, that the political hacks and money guys take too big of a cut, and so have broken the social contract. Ain’t gonna eat bugs while you dine on filet mignon.

Oh well, Atlas Shrugged, and America ( & it’s G7 acolytes) stopped. There’s still a lot of desirable, low population density places left on this earth. That’s where the opportunity is. But if you go there, you’ll have to become a local.

Posted by: OldFart | Sep 5 2023 1:08 utc | 89

I worked in tech in the US for the last 28 years, and almost every company has ~30% mainland Chinese engineers. Chinese companies pick the talent they need and pay what it takes to get subject matter experts to come back/consult. Since sanctions kicked in, China has been vacuuming key TSMC talent with 2x-3x salary offers I suspect that ASML replacement will show up much sooner than we think.

Posted by: Paul L | Sep 5 2023 1:16 utc | 90

The goal should always have been to make peace with Russia to counterbalance China inheriting the US status as a hegemonic hyperpower to enable a true multipolar world. China has the very real capacity to become a new hyperpower and should be treated with extreme caution. There will be far fewer wars, there will be no Chinese neocons out to start wars in the Middle East in service for a particular country but war is the not only form of oppression.

Posted by: Altai | Sep 4 2023 16:17 utc | 4

Blablablabla... Typical yankee imparialist way of thinking: power, power and power for hegemony and waging unending wars. That another country could think differently than the yankees imperialist never comes to their twisted minds. Cooperation instead of killing and looting is the Chinese way.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 5 2023 1:23 utc | 91

Posted by: Giyane | Sep 4 2023 20:15 utc | 41

You're right, I forgot about paper as a Chinese technological secret that was transferred to the Islamic world, supposedly at the only clash between Muslim and Chinese armies in central Asia in 751 AD, and subsequently to the west.

Posted by: jonboinAR | Sep 4 2023 21:10 utc | 46

"If it's in their interest to "steal" our technology, then so they will. If it's in our interest to sanction them in some way, then sanction we should. If not, not."

Your solution doesn't work. Sanctions only make the poor suffer, not the government elites. That's a typical American view, and explains why the American empire is failing.

Posted by: laguerre | Sep 5 2023 1:37 utc | 92

Didn't know where to post this. Anyway, according to the NYT, Kim Jong Un is supposedly going to meet Mr Putin in Vladivostok soon. White Horse Souces report that they will discuss North Korea selling Russia much needed weapons. Now for the two minutes of hate. Everyone is advised to take this with a large amount of Japanese sea salt.

Posted by: Immaculate deception | Sep 5 2023 1:57 utc | 93

The US idea that Chinese people have no creativity and can only copy is as dumb as the idea British people had in the 1930s that Japanese soldiers were all near-sighted and could not shoot straight! The British found out differently in the 1940s and the Americans are finding out differently at present.

Seriously, Chinese history is full of ingenious inventions (see SCIENCE AND CIVILISATION IN FHINA, Joseph Needham and others), while US industrial history is full of stolen inventions, everything from the spinning jenny and power loom to the magnetron.

Posted by: lester | Sep 5 2023 2:17 utc | 94

I guess I should clarify my statements on IQ/intelligence by adding that many opioid addicts suffer from some kind of mental illness, for which no easy or affordable treatment is available to them. The mental illness/depression may pre-date their addiction or it can be a result. Point being, in an arch-capitalist society like ours, there aren't many off-ramps for them so a lot of them end up on the street.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 22:50 utc | 72
---------------------------------------------------------------
No Tom, a lot of addicts end up in prison, alone with their mental illness. In prison, drugs like heroin and speed are still available for a price, mostly brought in by guards and other prison workers. Many will kick their habit, but their life is totally fucked, jobs are hard to find and are generally low wage. There is considerable pressure to return to crime just to make ends meet, and mental issues like schizophrenia and bi-polarize remains untreated, in prison and after release.

I point this out because most states refuse to provide programs to help attics kick their habits before they go to prison and are burdened with a criminal record, also the States don't give a fuck if you are mentally ill. If you have ever had a family member, go through this process, then you would understand.

Too bad that working class parent can't have the Hunter Biden drug addiction program: A job for $80 thousand a month with no experience, and a $5 million dollar bonus because your dad is the VP of the United States.

Posted by: Ed | Sep 5 2023 2:19 utc | 95

https://strategic-culture.su/

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Sep 4 2023 22:52 utc | 73
-------------------------------------------------------

Tom, it just worked for me. Try it again. Good luck.

Posted by: Ed | Sep 5 2023 2:26 utc | 96

Posted by: lester | Sep 5 2023 2:17 utc | 94
YES. China has a long, long cultural tradition of invention. Also of hard work. One need only look at Wikipedia, List of Chinese inventions.
The American educational begins reading, writing, arithmetic, science, geography late, proceeds more slowly, and ends sooner than all but third world countries.

Regarding those of you wondering where the most drugs in the US are, don't forget meth, with its major hub in NE Alabama. NW Georgia also.

Posted by: HelenB | Sep 5 2023 2:57 utc | 97

Ed@95. The problem is drug laws are just like prohibition. It doesn't work and it brings out the smugglers. Keep the price high, put people in prison for nefarious reasons while the govt reaps the whirlwind. I'm not advocating drug use, just stating the obvious.

Posted by: Immaculate deception | Sep 5 2023 3:00 utc | 98

The West is a doomed block, it's control by corporate entities and their billionaire owners ensures that innovation is being gradually crushed, all that will remain will be zombie monopolies and duopolies. There will be no return to manufacturing as long as we have a parasite embedded in our throats that sucks the lifeforce from our countries.

As to China they will continue to innovate, the great mystery there is their covid response. The fear campaign worked well in the West and many succumbed to the blatant misinformation, the evidence and data is now out but few still sadly admit their complicity. China though acted as if rather than the yearly flu we now know it was, that covid was a bio-weapon, their economy crushing lockdowns were completely insane and way longer than anywhere else. Perhaps one day we will find out what was really going on and why.

Posted by: Organic | Sep 5 2023 3:05 utc | 99

Posted by: Immaculate deception | Sep 5 2023 3:00 utc | 98
--------------------------------------------------------------
I agree with you, but that is just an explanation, not a resolution. The ruling class profits from drug sales both prescription and illicit. That is the problem. For profit prisons also profit.

Thank you for your comment.

Posted by: Ed | Sep 5 2023 3:18 utc | 100

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