Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
September 28, 2023
China’s ‘Shared Future’

The U.S. fears that China's growth will lead to a competition between the countries over hegemony on earth.

But China rejects hegemony. No only the one the U.S. is obviously trying to achieve but, more general, also for itself.

Yesterday the Global Times editorial pointed to a new guideline paper issued by China's State Council:

On September 26, China's State Council Information Office released a white paper titled "A Global Community of Shared Future: China's Proposals and Actions." Against the backdrop of the 10th anniversary of President Xi Jinping's proposal of building a global community of shared future, China has introduced the theoretical base, practice and development of a global community of shared future, and points the way toward a better future for the world. Anyone, be they are developing countries seeking to learn from China or individuals from Western countries who are interested in gaining a deeper understanding of China, will find inspiration in it as long as they approach it without biased views.

Human society is now facing a "life-or-death choice:" whether to enter into a vicious cycle of continuous confrontation and division or to seek a path of cooperation and win-win, ultimately allowing more than 7 billion people to have a better life. The whole world is searching for answers. This also confirms the highly prescient and forward-looking nature of the concept of a global community of shared future.

Today's world has become a community of shared future, with countries riding together on a ship of shared fate. A small boat cannot withstand the wind and waves, only a giant vessel can withstand the stormy seas. No matter how powerful a country may be, it cannot dominate the world alone and must engage in global cooperation.

As the white paper says, "This is an integrated world. Those who turn their back on it will have no place in it." In such a world, the true power that transcends time is contained in the silent and subtle ideas, just like the practical greatness demonstrated by the concept of global community of shared future.

The paper is available here.

It is 22,000 words long but quite readable. It is a recipe for a just and equalitarian world that will peacefully develop for everyone while allowing for a diversity of cultures and ideologies. It is thus building on China's decade old concept of a Community of Common Destiny for Mankind.

The most interesting part is probably this paragraph:

There is no iron law that dictates that a rising power will inevitably seek hegemony. This assumption represents typical hegemonic thinking and is grounded in memories of catastrophic wars between hegemonic powers in the past. China has never accepted that once a country becomes strong enough, it will invariably seek hegemony. China understands the lesson of history – that hegemony preludes decline. We pursue development and revitalization through our own efforts, rather than invasion or expansion. And everything we do is for the purpose of providing a better life for our people, all the while creating more development opportunities for the entire world, not in order to supersede or subjugate others.

Other strategic statements by China, like the one issued in 2013 that laid the ground for its Belt and Road program, had been dismissed when they were issued. But the record shows that China acts on such programs exactly as its papers promise to do. It profits from doing so.

Is its thesis in this new paper, that hegemony preludes decline, valid?

Should we therefore trust its claims that it rejects hegemony, not only of others but also for itself?

Comments

Can we ask a Uighur living in China for their feedback?
Posted by: Paul Schneider
Which one? An islamist terrorist? Or one who went to the yankeeland to sell his story about genocide and be rewarded with a confortable life without working for his lies?
When you want to genocide people, you do not allow them to have more than one child, like it was done for the Hans only.
By the way the Uighur population in China increased by several millions people during the last 20 years. How do you call the opposite of a genocide?
To make it short, your comment/question smells psitacchism of the western propaganda against China.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 15:37 utc | 201

Can we ask a Uighur living in China for their feedback?
Posted by: Paul Schneider
Which one? An islamist terrorist? Or one who went to the yankeeland to sell his story about genocide and be rewarded with a confortable life without working for his lies?
When you want to genocide people, you do not allow them to have more than one child, like it was done for the Hans only.
By the way the Uighur population in China increased by several millions people during the last 20 years. How do you call the opposite of a genocide?
To make it short, your comment/question smells psitacchism of the western propaganda against China.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 15:37 utc | 202

Posted by: Observer | Sep 28 2023 15:14 utc | 92
The Chinese are only human. But there is one thing that remains red hot in the collective national memory, the Century of Humiliation. And the cause to that is extremely well known – that China acted as arrogant bigots and looked down on a world that was racing past it. This is the kind of obsession that drives Black America to engage its own politics in light of policies over 150+ years old and their ongoing impacts.
I can see Chinese leadership forgetting from time to time, but a gentle reminder is all it would take to bring them back to relative wisdom. If anything, appealing to Chinese pride allows one to assert that Chinese learn from the past by means of recording them to the history books and preserving those lessons for future generations. This is presuming that somehow Communist ideals also go by the wayside, which I am not that convinced of either (especially as they get richer and all that “deferred socialism” comes back as a TODO reminder).
I suspect this will last us a good couple centuries of peace relative to the current norms.

Posted by: Run | Sep 28 2023 15:38 utc | 203

Posted by: Observer | Sep 28 2023 15:14 utc | 92
The Chinese are only human. But there is one thing that remains red hot in the collective national memory, the Century of Humiliation. And the cause to that is extremely well known – that China acted as arrogant bigots and looked down on a world that was racing past it. This is the kind of obsession that drives Black America to engage its own politics in light of policies over 150+ years old and their ongoing impacts.
I can see Chinese leadership forgetting from time to time, but a gentle reminder is all it would take to bring them back to relative wisdom. If anything, appealing to Chinese pride allows one to assert that Chinese learn from the past by means of recording them to the history books and preserving those lessons for future generations. This is presuming that somehow Communist ideals also go by the wayside, which I am not that convinced of either (especially as they get richer and all that “deferred socialism” comes back as a TODO reminder).
I suspect this will last us a good couple centuries of peace relative to the current norms.

Posted by: Run | Sep 28 2023 15:38 utc | 204

Our absorption of Africa is going to make the natives pine for the days of King Leopold

Posted by: Admiral Zheng He | Sep 28 2023 15:38 utc | 205

Our absorption of Africa is going to make the natives pine for the days of King Leopold

Posted by: Admiral Zheng He | Sep 28 2023 15:38 utc | 206

Posted by: OohCanada | Sep 28 2023 15:32 utc | 97
Typical from the western imperialist mind who cannot think otherwise.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 15:39 utc | 207

Posted by: OohCanada | Sep 28 2023 15:32 utc | 97
Typical from the western imperialist mind who cannot think otherwise.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 15:39 utc | 208

Michael Yon notes that J.R. Nyquist alleged that CCP Defense Minister Chi Haotian “made a speech about destroying USA using all means possibly including bioweapons, and to occupy the Western Hemisphere. China claims Native American Indians are Chinese immigrants and therefore Americans stole the land from Chinese. Ancestral claim across the Americas is their casus belli to take South America, Panama, and the entire place eventually. Starting with vital terrain such as Panama and United States.”
Realistic?
https://jrnyquist.blog/2019/09/11/the-secret-speech-of-general-chi-haotian/

Posted by: Noah Nehm | Sep 28 2023 15:41 utc | 209

Michael Yon notes that J.R. Nyquist alleged that CCP Defense Minister Chi Haotian “made a speech about destroying USA using all means possibly including bioweapons, and to occupy the Western Hemisphere. China claims Native American Indians are Chinese immigrants and therefore Americans stole the land from Chinese. Ancestral claim across the Americas is their casus belli to take South America, Panama, and the entire place eventually. Starting with vital terrain such as Panama and United States.”
Realistic?
https://jrnyquist.blog/2019/09/11/the-secret-speech-of-general-chi-haotian/

Posted by: Noah Nehm | Sep 28 2023 15:41 utc | 210

To Paul Schneider @2
F William Engdahl in ‚The lost hegemon: whom the gods would destroy‘ is enlightening on the Uighurs.
Worth looking into.

Posted by: Valerie Swales | Sep 28 2023 15:42 utc | 211

To Paul Schneider @2
F William Engdahl in ‚The lost hegemon: whom the gods would destroy‘ is enlightening on the Uighurs.
Worth looking into.

Posted by: Valerie Swales | Sep 28 2023 15:42 utc | 212

Posted by: Admiral Zheng He | Sep 28 2023 15:38 utc | 102
Only a racist pretending to be Chinese could write that.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 15:45 utc | 213

Posted by: Admiral Zheng He | Sep 28 2023 15:38 utc | 102
Only a racist pretending to be Chinese could write that.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 15:45 utc | 214

Was this mainly about water rights? I believe China, by annexing Tibet, now controls all the major headwaters upon which India depends, but have never looked into it in detail.
Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 14:34 utc | 80
When I was in Hong Kong in 2012 I asked a local why is China building such an expensive railroad to Tibet which is an economic back water? The local replied that it goes through Northern India and there is still very cheap labour in that area and that was the principal reason for railway.
And, yes, the headwaters re a strategic resource for China.

Posted by: canuck | Sep 28 2023 15:45 utc | 215

Was this mainly about water rights? I believe China, by annexing Tibet, now controls all the major headwaters upon which India depends, but have never looked into it in detail.
Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 14:34 utc | 80
When I was in Hong Kong in 2012 I asked a local why is China building such an expensive railroad to Tibet which is an economic back water? The local replied that it goes through Northern India and there is still very cheap labour in that area and that was the principal reason for railway.
And, yes, the headwaters re a strategic resource for China.

Posted by: canuck | Sep 28 2023 15:45 utc | 216

Posted by: Noah Nehm | Sep 28 2023 15:41 utc | 104
From Epoch Times? I wouldn’t consider anything from a cult of that degree of delusion to be remotely factual.

Posted by: Run | Sep 28 2023 15:46 utc | 217

Posted by: Noah Nehm | Sep 28 2023 15:41 utc | 104
From Epoch Times? I wouldn’t consider anything from a cult of that degree of delusion to be remotely factual.

Posted by: Run | Sep 28 2023 15:46 utc | 218

“Can we ask a Uighur living in China for their feedback?
I mean that.
I accept and embrace the principle of global cooperation that you quote from this paper. I hope it is sincere. But if the Chinese exempt themselves (just like we preach “democracy” and then undermine our own elections (e.g., 2020) from these principles, then count me as pessimistic.”
Posted by: Paul Schneider | Sep 28 2023 9:15 utc | 2
Paul, from all reports, Uygurs in Xinjiang, China, are doing better than they ever have. More prosperity, more education, more jobs, whatever, and more freedom. You reek of Western malign propaganda. For shame!

Posted by: Tedder | Sep 28 2023 15:49 utc | 219

“Can we ask a Uighur living in China for their feedback?
I mean that.
I accept and embrace the principle of global cooperation that you quote from this paper. I hope it is sincere. But if the Chinese exempt themselves (just like we preach “democracy” and then undermine our own elections (e.g., 2020) from these principles, then count me as pessimistic.”
Posted by: Paul Schneider | Sep 28 2023 9:15 utc | 2
Paul, from all reports, Uygurs in Xinjiang, China, are doing better than they ever have. More prosperity, more education, more jobs, whatever, and more freedom. You reek of Western malign propaganda. For shame!

Posted by: Tedder | Sep 28 2023 15:49 utc | 220

Posted by: Valerie Swales | Sep 28 2023 15:42 utc | 105
It is a well known fact that the yankees used and are still using the islamist terrorists and the nazis as proxies to wage war at their place.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 15:49 utc | 221

Posted by: Valerie Swales | Sep 28 2023 15:42 utc | 105
It is a well known fact that the yankees used and are still using the islamist terrorists and the nazis as proxies to wage war at their place.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 15:49 utc | 222

Was this mainly about water rights? I believe China, by annexing Tibet, now controls all the major headwaters upon which India depends, but have never looked into it in detail.
Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 14:34 utc | 80
1) China did not annex China, but liberated it.
2) Southern Tibet (Arunachal Pradesh) was colonised by the British who established the colonial line McMahon.
3) Except Yarlung Tsangpo (Brahmaputra in India), China controls nothing.
4) Yes, look into it in detail. You will be more clever.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 16:01 utc | 223

Was this mainly about water rights? I believe China, by annexing Tibet, now controls all the major headwaters upon which India depends, but have never looked into it in detail.
Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 14:34 utc | 80
1) China did not annex China, but liberated it.
2) Southern Tibet (Arunachal Pradesh) was colonised by the British who established the colonial line McMahon.
3) Except Yarlung Tsangpo (Brahmaputra in India), China controls nothing.
4) Yes, look into it in detail. You will be more clever.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 16:01 utc | 224

The idea that China will somehow overnight develop an overwhelming capability to shape the international system through both coercive and non-coercive means is laughable. The US military, the dollar, geography, and US economics dominate all spheres. We currently live in a unipolar world with one hegemony. Most experts believe that China cannot even take the tiny island of Taiwan by force. China can only influence by non-coercive means.
Obviously no one believes that China can run around the planet challenging US homogeny, much less invade the US. The real question that US elite ask is whether or not the US military can anchor itself off the coast China and pummel the Chinese homeland and industrial base into the Stone Age with conventional weapons. Most experts believe that is still the case, but the US is not sure when the tipping point will happen. Studies made in the 1990s estimated that China economic and industrial progress would achieve a level where they could challenge the United States by 2025. Just to be clear challenge in pentagon talk means defend itself locally. Hence the reason that the US wants to provoke China into war with Taiwan now and not later.

Posted by: ATM | Sep 28 2023 16:03 utc | 225

The idea that China will somehow overnight develop an overwhelming capability to shape the international system through both coercive and non-coercive means is laughable. The US military, the dollar, geography, and US economics dominate all spheres. We currently live in a unipolar world with one hegemony. Most experts believe that China cannot even take the tiny island of Taiwan by force. China can only influence by non-coercive means.
Obviously no one believes that China can run around the planet challenging US homogeny, much less invade the US. The real question that US elite ask is whether or not the US military can anchor itself off the coast China and pummel the Chinese homeland and industrial base into the Stone Age with conventional weapons. Most experts believe that is still the case, but the US is not sure when the tipping point will happen. Studies made in the 1990s estimated that China economic and industrial progress would achieve a level where they could challenge the United States by 2025. Just to be clear challenge in pentagon talk means defend itself locally. Hence the reason that the US wants to provoke China into war with Taiwan now and not later.

Posted by: ATM | Sep 28 2023 16:03 utc | 226

When I was in Hong Kong in 2012 I asked a local why is China building such an expensive railroad to Tibet which is an economic back water? The local replied that it goes through Northern India and there is still very cheap labour in that area and that was the principal reason for railway.
Posted by: canuck | Sep 28 2023 15:45 utc | 107
Stupid reply. They did not only build a railroad, new but roads and bridges and tunnels everywhere, and dams. Xizang is developing at a fast pace like never before.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 16:06 utc | 227

When I was in Hong Kong in 2012 I asked a local why is China building such an expensive railroad to Tibet which is an economic back water? The local replied that it goes through Northern India and there is still very cheap labour in that area and that was the principal reason for railway.
Posted by: canuck | Sep 28 2023 15:45 utc | 107
Stupid reply. They did not only build a railroad, new but roads and bridges and tunnels everywhere, and dams. Xizang is developing at a fast pace like never before.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 16:06 utc | 228

Giyane | Sep 28 2023 12:09 utc | 37

But once the multiploar society gets rich, they then want dominance.
Multipolarity is the entrance door, but then the poor immigrants turn out to aspire to hegemony.

If a set of people (or countries) has to stay around each other for a while, certain individuals will turn out stronger, more popular, more influential, enjoying more respect, than others. This comes naturally, no way to avoid it. And yes, China is on its way to become the top dog for the coming decades.
The question is, what does this top position mean for the rest. In the Roman Empire, the colonies were free to continue living by their own traditions, worship their own gods, honor their internal laws. Remember, for instance, the jews at the time of Jesus. The only rule the colonies had to comply with was to make regular financial contributions to the Empire.
The US Empire, by comparison, tends to force its vassals and clients to live by US rules (neoliberalism, wokeness), and, in addition, harvests their natural resources for a pittance, has them lose their wealth and end up in the debt trap.
There is nothing wrong with contributions, if they are moderate and spent for the common welfare. Is not everyone of us used to being taxed, anyway?
Another hegemon is likely to emerge. Now the question is only, will the Chinese (or Russian) flavor of dominance be more human friendly than the US variation? The answer is, almost certainly, yes. For it cannot get much worse than at present under US dominance.

Posted by: grunzt | Sep 28 2023 16:07 utc | 229

Giyane | Sep 28 2023 12:09 utc | 37

But once the multiploar society gets rich, they then want dominance.
Multipolarity is the entrance door, but then the poor immigrants turn out to aspire to hegemony.

If a set of people (or countries) has to stay around each other for a while, certain individuals will turn out stronger, more popular, more influential, enjoying more respect, than others. This comes naturally, no way to avoid it. And yes, China is on its way to become the top dog for the coming decades.
The question is, what does this top position mean for the rest. In the Roman Empire, the colonies were free to continue living by their own traditions, worship their own gods, honor their internal laws. Remember, for instance, the jews at the time of Jesus. The only rule the colonies had to comply with was to make regular financial contributions to the Empire.
The US Empire, by comparison, tends to force its vassals and clients to live by US rules (neoliberalism, wokeness), and, in addition, harvests their natural resources for a pittance, has them lose their wealth and end up in the debt trap.
There is nothing wrong with contributions, if they are moderate and spent for the common welfare. Is not everyone of us used to being taxed, anyway?
Another hegemon is likely to emerge. Now the question is only, will the Chinese (or Russian) flavor of dominance be more human friendly than the US variation? The answer is, almost certainly, yes. For it cannot get much worse than at present under US dominance.

Posted by: grunzt | Sep 28 2023 16:07 utc | 230

B
These are words only. 22000 words which are lovely to read.
But Look at actions not words.
China is doing everything possible to avoid the thucydides trap. That’s why it changed its AI 2025 vision.
But at the same time, it is belligerent with its neighbours, engaging in an advanced form of econmonic hitman
-activity and preparing for war.

Posted by: Jl555@gmail.com | Sep 28 2023 16:08 utc | 231

B
These are words only. 22000 words which are lovely to read.
But Look at actions not words.
China is doing everything possible to avoid the thucydides trap. That’s why it changed its AI 2025 vision.
But at the same time, it is belligerent with its neighbours, engaging in an advanced form of econmonic hitman
-activity and preparing for war.

Posted by: Jl555@gmail.com | Sep 28 2023 16:08 utc | 232

Most experts believe that China cannot even take the tiny island of Taiwan by force.
Posted by: ATM | Sep 28 2023 16:03 utc | 112
Typical. Only western people think that all problems shall find their solutions by using force. And war.
It’s what I call: to be short-sighted. Very short-sighted. And total lack of imagination.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 16:11 utc | 233

Most experts believe that China cannot even take the tiny island of Taiwan by force.
Posted by: ATM | Sep 28 2023 16:03 utc | 112
Typical. Only western people think that all problems shall find their solutions by using force. And war.
It’s what I call: to be short-sighted. Very short-sighted. And total lack of imagination.

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 16:11 utc | 234

Should we trust what China says about not seeking hegemony?
As the Russians say “doveryay, no proveryay” (Trust but Verify)

Posted by: AnObserver | Sep 28 2023 16:12 utc | 235

Should we trust what China says about not seeking hegemony?
As the Russians say “doveryay, no proveryay” (Trust but Verify)

Posted by: AnObserver | Sep 28 2023 16:12 utc | 236

Posted by: ATM | Sep 28 2023 16:03 utc | 112
West/USA bullshit.

Posted by: Mario | Sep 28 2023 16:17 utc | 237

Posted by: ATM | Sep 28 2023 16:03 utc | 112
West/USA bullshit.

Posted by: Mario | Sep 28 2023 16:17 utc | 238

Is its thesis in this new paper, that hegemony preludes decline, valid?

Answering that is worthy of several long articles by good historians.
But one answer came to this amateur’s mind, namely: China has indeed been around a long time but with many ups and downs. For example, shortly after Admiral He’s last trip, the Mandarins got a new Emperor who re-enforced the ‘Maritime Ban’, outlawing international trade. Within a few decades, piracy became rampant because of course trade did not stop as commanded from on high, it simply went black market; lawlessness pervaded the entire nation with much of the Mandarin class on the take. Given that most of the population lived in coastal areas back then, such a draconian isolationist policy almost undermined their entire civilization. (Beware Draconianism!!)
China knows continuity, discontinuity and things going terribly wrong for centuries. They have not enjoyed a long, peaceful rise for the past 3,000 years as they often project. Whether or not hegemony always ends up there it is for sure not the only cause of decline – as they well know.
Perhaps a more interesting question is: what causes long-term civilizational stability? Here they have considerable collective wisdom, although the ‘modernizing’ materialist post-revolutionary mindset has outlawed so much of their spiritual heritage they may now perceive their own history through a glass darkly.
Perhaps this is the latest iteration of a naturally reoccurring revolutionary cycle which they still retain the collective wisdom to effectively manage, not throwing out the civilizational baby with the revolutionary bath water. Time will tell.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 16:22 utc | 239

Is its thesis in this new paper, that hegemony preludes decline, valid?

Answering that is worthy of several long articles by good historians.
But one answer came to this amateur’s mind, namely: China has indeed been around a long time but with many ups and downs. For example, shortly after Admiral He’s last trip, the Mandarins got a new Emperor who re-enforced the ‘Maritime Ban’, outlawing international trade. Within a few decades, piracy became rampant because of course trade did not stop as commanded from on high, it simply went black market; lawlessness pervaded the entire nation with much of the Mandarin class on the take. Given that most of the population lived in coastal areas back then, such a draconian isolationist policy almost undermined their entire civilization. (Beware Draconianism!!)
China knows continuity, discontinuity and things going terribly wrong for centuries. They have not enjoyed a long, peaceful rise for the past 3,000 years as they often project. Whether or not hegemony always ends up there it is for sure not the only cause of decline – as they well know.
Perhaps a more interesting question is: what causes long-term civilizational stability? Here they have considerable collective wisdom, although the ‘modernizing’ materialist post-revolutionary mindset has outlawed so much of their spiritual heritage they may now perceive their own history through a glass darkly.
Perhaps this is the latest iteration of a naturally reoccurring revolutionary cycle which they still retain the collective wisdom to effectively manage, not throwing out the civilizational baby with the revolutionary bath water. Time will tell.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 16:22 utc | 240

then count me as pessimistic.

With PLEASURE.
I’ll also actively filter such nonsensical and predictably Off-Topic comments from you.
It’s also very telling that your comment was only the second posted.

Posted by: The Archivist | Sep 28 2023 16:34 utc | 241

then count me as pessimistic.

With PLEASURE.
I’ll also actively filter such nonsensical and predictably Off-Topic comments from you.
It’s also very telling that your comment was only the second posted.

Posted by: The Archivist | Sep 28 2023 16:34 utc | 242

I write on China, with regard to India, in my blog rpdeans.blogspot.com `DeansMusings’
I also analyze the Ukraine war, using both Russian and western sources.

Posted by: Deans | Sep 28 2023 16:37 utc | 243

I write on China, with regard to India, in my blog rpdeans.blogspot.com `DeansMusings’
I also analyze the Ukraine war, using both Russian and western sources.

Posted by: Deans | Sep 28 2023 16:37 utc | 244

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 16:01 utc | 111
Was this mainly about water rights? I believe China, by annexing Tibet, now controls all the major headwaters upon which India depends, but have never looked into it in detail.
Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 14:34 utc | 80
1) China did not annex China, but liberated it.
2) Southern Tibet (Arunachal Pradesh) was colonised by the British who established the colonial line McMahon.
3) Except Yarlung Tsangpo (Brahmaputra in India), China controls nothing.
4) Yes, look into it in detail. You will be more clever.
====================================
The reason I don’t look into it in detail, apart from time, is that it is an inflammatory topic so most coverage is distorted. (Like China!)
Example: your points 1 and 2. Once I see things expressed that way, I tune out. There are several sides to every issue but most people express only one (often very narrow) side insisting that all others are beneath contempt. As per your Point 4.
So I shall continue to not study the issue, thank you very much. I don’t live there and never shall.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 16:37 utc | 245

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 16:01 utc | 111
Was this mainly about water rights? I believe China, by annexing Tibet, now controls all the major headwaters upon which India depends, but have never looked into it in detail.
Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 14:34 utc | 80
1) China did not annex China, but liberated it.
2) Southern Tibet (Arunachal Pradesh) was colonised by the British who established the colonial line McMahon.
3) Except Yarlung Tsangpo (Brahmaputra in India), China controls nothing.
4) Yes, look into it in detail. You will be more clever.
====================================
The reason I don’t look into it in detail, apart from time, is that it is an inflammatory topic so most coverage is distorted. (Like China!)
Example: your points 1 and 2. Once I see things expressed that way, I tune out. There are several sides to every issue but most people express only one (often very narrow) side insisting that all others are beneath contempt. As per your Point 4.
So I shall continue to not study the issue, thank you very much. I don’t live there and never shall.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 16:37 utc | 246

From a twitter post….
Important :
Russia stopped uranium exports to the US due to lack of insurance coverage – Rosatom
Finally…. the sanctions regime gave RosAtom an excuse to stop U235 exports to USA…
While….
At Los Alomos 17,000 are working feverishly to extract Pu from spent nuclear fuel to make functional atom bomb “pits” or… the core of nuclear bombs…
About time…
INDY
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 28 2023 13:55 utc | 63

Seems to be a red herring
https://tass.com/economy/1681883

Posted by: blueswede | Sep 28 2023 16:37 utc | 247

From a twitter post….
Important :
Russia stopped uranium exports to the US due to lack of insurance coverage – Rosatom
Finally…. the sanctions regime gave RosAtom an excuse to stop U235 exports to USA…
While….
At Los Alomos 17,000 are working feverishly to extract Pu from spent nuclear fuel to make functional atom bomb “pits” or… the core of nuclear bombs…
About time…
INDY
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Sep 28 2023 13:55 utc | 63

Seems to be a red herring
https://tass.com/economy/1681883

Posted by: blueswede | Sep 28 2023 16:37 utc | 248

Posted by: Susan | Sep 28 2023 15:04 utc | 89
“Let’s talk about Black communities in America. Where housing is unaffordable healthcare non existent and cops shoot to kill at the drop of a hat.”
Afraid you need to get caught up with the reality of today which is blacks killing other blacks in far greater numbers than the cops ever dared to do.
Go to Chicago or Baltimore, for example, if you don’t believe me.

Posted by: morongobill | Sep 28 2023 16:39 utc | 249

Posted by: Susan | Sep 28 2023 15:04 utc | 89
“Let’s talk about Black communities in America. Where housing is unaffordable healthcare non existent and cops shoot to kill at the drop of a hat.”
Afraid you need to get caught up with the reality of today which is blacks killing other blacks in far greater numbers than the cops ever dared to do.
Go to Chicago or Baltimore, for example, if you don’t believe me.

Posted by: morongobill | Sep 28 2023 16:39 utc | 250

China recognizes hegemony as a futile and worthless pursuit.
That’s the difference between an ancient culture and an adolescent one.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 28 2023 16:41 utc | 251

China recognizes hegemony as a futile and worthless pursuit.
That’s the difference between an ancient culture and an adolescent one.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 28 2023 16:41 utc | 252

“…Another hegemon is likely to emerge. …” grunzt@114
There has never been a power with the global reach that the US has enjoyed. People talk about the British but Britain recognised that its power was limited: the concept of the Balance of Power is inherently multipolar.
Apart from madmen who failed-most recently Hitler- no country has ever come close to global domination and unipolarity.
That is a unique feature of the current era, and it has not worked out well for anyone: on the one hand the sordid history of Phoenix and Condor, the tens of millions killed by death squads and sanctions, bombing, chemical and biological weapons. On the other hand the complete intellectual, economic, social and psychological corruption of a society incapable of handling the power that it has accidentally acquired…like a child picking up a loaded machine gun.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 28 2023 16:47 utc | 253

“…Another hegemon is likely to emerge. …” grunzt@114
There has never been a power with the global reach that the US has enjoyed. People talk about the British but Britain recognised that its power was limited: the concept of the Balance of Power is inherently multipolar.
Apart from madmen who failed-most recently Hitler- no country has ever come close to global domination and unipolarity.
That is a unique feature of the current era, and it has not worked out well for anyone: on the one hand the sordid history of Phoenix and Condor, the tens of millions killed by death squads and sanctions, bombing, chemical and biological weapons. On the other hand the complete intellectual, economic, social and psychological corruption of a society incapable of handling the power that it has accidentally acquired…like a child picking up a loaded machine gun.

Posted by: bevin | Sep 28 2023 16:47 utc | 254

Posted by: Paul Schneider 2| say “Can we ask a Uighur living in China for their feedback?”
I mean, you believe “… THE LIES THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE BEING FED BY THE MEDIA.”
“I mean that.”
Quote: “reporting on a reality far different than the lies the American people are being fed by the media. EIR’s Jeffrey Steinberg interviews both on their meetings and experiences with top officials and everyday Syrians.”
https://www.larouchepac.com/20160708/syria-breaking-propaganda-war-senator-richard-black

Posted by: Neocons | Sep 28 2023 16:47 utc | 255

Posted by: Paul Schneider 2| say “Can we ask a Uighur living in China for their feedback?”
I mean, you believe “… THE LIES THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE BEING FED BY THE MEDIA.”
“I mean that.”
Quote: “reporting on a reality far different than the lies the American people are being fed by the media. EIR’s Jeffrey Steinberg interviews both on their meetings and experiences with top officials and everyday Syrians.”
https://www.larouchepac.com/20160708/syria-breaking-propaganda-war-senator-richard-black

Posted by: Neocons | Sep 28 2023 16:47 utc | 256

Can we ask a Uighur living in China for their feedback?
Posted by: Paul Schneider | Sep 28 2023 9:15 utc | 2
The Uighur/China issue is anything but clear cut:
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/03/17/report-uyghur-genocide-sham-university-neocon-punish-china/

Posted by: Chris N | Sep 28 2023 16:49 utc | 257

Can we ask a Uighur living in China for their feedback?
Posted by: Paul Schneider | Sep 28 2023 9:15 utc | 2
The Uighur/China issue is anything but clear cut:
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/03/17/report-uyghur-genocide-sham-university-neocon-punish-china/

Posted by: Chris N | Sep 28 2023 16:49 utc | 258

“The reason I don’t look into it in detail, apart from time, is that it is an inflammatory topic so most coverage is distorted. (Like China!)”
You – first of all – distorted the subject when you wrote:
“I believe China, by annexing Tibet, now controls all the major headwaters upon which India depends, but have never looked into it in detail.”
Which is an unsubstantiated, inflammatory belief and a lie.
Shall we speak about the annexion of the American continent and the genocides of the Amerindians?
Tibetans are not parked in “reserves” and never were. There is no ethnic cleansing.
Do I guess right that you are a receiver of a stolen land?

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 16:49 utc | 259

“The reason I don’t look into it in detail, apart from time, is that it is an inflammatory topic so most coverage is distorted. (Like China!)”
You – first of all – distorted the subject when you wrote:
“I believe China, by annexing Tibet, now controls all the major headwaters upon which India depends, but have never looked into it in detail.”
Which is an unsubstantiated, inflammatory belief and a lie.
Shall we speak about the annexion of the American continent and the genocides of the Amerindians?
Tibetans are not parked in “reserves” and never were. There is no ethnic cleansing.
Do I guess right that you are a receiver of a stolen land?

Posted by: Patience | Sep 28 2023 16:49 utc | 260

Posted by: Rubiconned | Sep 28 2023 11:23 utc | 28
###############
The Chinese have nothing on America annexing Mexico.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 28 2023 16:56 utc | 261

Posted by: Rubiconned | Sep 28 2023 11:23 utc | 28
###############
The Chinese have nothing on America annexing Mexico.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 28 2023 16:56 utc | 262

China’s “crimes”: it’s a big non-western civilization, never conquered by Britain, France, Spain, or any Western country; it’s people are prospering at the moment; the government is not submissive to the US government.
If the most unlikely thing in the world were to happen, and the PRC were to surrender to the ROC on Taiwan and go out of business next week, the USA would still be hostile to China, for not being the USA.

Posted by: lester | Sep 28 2023 16:56 utc | 263

China’s “crimes”: it’s a big non-western civilization, never conquered by Britain, France, Spain, or any Western country; it’s people are prospering at the moment; the government is not submissive to the US government.
If the most unlikely thing in the world were to happen, and the PRC were to surrender to the ROC on Taiwan and go out of business next week, the USA would still be hostile to China, for not being the USA.

Posted by: lester | Sep 28 2023 16:56 utc | 264

Posted by: grunzt | Sep 28 2023 16:07 utc | 114
Another hegemon is likely to emerge. Now the question is only, will the Chinese (or Russian) flavor of dominance be more human friendly than the US variation? The answer is, almost certainly, yes. For it cannot get much worse than at present under US dominance.

Very well said. If we substitute the word ‘dominance’ for ‘hegemon’ then it seems a new world order is arising which will indeed prove dominant. It will be ‘the way it is now’.
I personally love the multipolar vision and have been a fan for a long time. However, after covid I smell globalist rat infestation, along with many mixed messages, and am waiting to see how things play out.
In any case, the ‘hegemon’ is not nation state based but a rapacious para-national financial system. If the multipolar world order bypasses or eliminates this Hydra, fantastic. But if that same system permeates the multipolar world, it will almost certainly develop into a totalitarian Leviathan on a global scale never before seen. Given recent history in all major polities, I see no evidence to suggest that we are collectively wise enough to avoid such a fate.
No matter what, the decline now evident in the West seems almost irreversible as does the rise in the East. If the latter prevents the former from desperately projecting military destruction into its domain, then the West will retreat into a long period of introspection and reform, being able to join the world again in a few centuries.
My personal misgiving is that modern secularism will not prove a good foundation for long-lasting civilization, but what do I know?
Time will tell.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 16:58 utc | 265

Posted by: grunzt | Sep 28 2023 16:07 utc | 114
Another hegemon is likely to emerge. Now the question is only, will the Chinese (or Russian) flavor of dominance be more human friendly than the US variation? The answer is, almost certainly, yes. For it cannot get much worse than at present under US dominance.

Very well said. If we substitute the word ‘dominance’ for ‘hegemon’ then it seems a new world order is arising which will indeed prove dominant. It will be ‘the way it is now’.
I personally love the multipolar vision and have been a fan for a long time. However, after covid I smell globalist rat infestation, along with many mixed messages, and am waiting to see how things play out.
In any case, the ‘hegemon’ is not nation state based but a rapacious para-national financial system. If the multipolar world order bypasses or eliminates this Hydra, fantastic. But if that same system permeates the multipolar world, it will almost certainly develop into a totalitarian Leviathan on a global scale never before seen. Given recent history in all major polities, I see no evidence to suggest that we are collectively wise enough to avoid such a fate.
No matter what, the decline now evident in the West seems almost irreversible as does the rise in the East. If the latter prevents the former from desperately projecting military destruction into its domain, then the West will retreat into a long period of introspection and reform, being able to join the world again in a few centuries.
My personal misgiving is that modern secularism will not prove a good foundation for long-lasting civilization, but what do I know?
Time will tell.

Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 16:58 utc | 266

China’s “crimes”: it’s a big non-western civilization, never conquered by Britain, France, Spain, or any Western country; it’s people are prospering at the moment; the government is not submissive to the US government.
If the most unlikely thing in the world were to happen, and the PRC were to surrender to the ROC on Taiwan and go out of business next week, the USA would still be hostile to China, for not being the USA.

Posted by: lester | Sep 28 2023 16:58 utc | 267

China’s “crimes”: it’s a big non-western civilization, never conquered by Britain, France, Spain, or any Western country; it’s people are prospering at the moment; the government is not submissive to the US government.
If the most unlikely thing in the world were to happen, and the PRC were to surrender to the ROC on Taiwan and go out of business next week, the USA would still be hostile to China, for not being the USA.

Posted by: lester | Sep 28 2023 16:58 utc | 268

“With the exception of the Mongols, China has rarely been internationally aggressive.” – TPaine
Modern history in China begins with Western countries forcing China to do business with them: the two Opium Wars, etc.

Posted by: lester | Sep 28 2023 17:01 utc | 269

“With the exception of the Mongols, China has rarely been internationally aggressive.” – TPaine
Modern history in China begins with Western countries forcing China to do business with them: the two Opium Wars, etc.

Posted by: lester | Sep 28 2023 17:01 utc | 270

Regional hegemony has been sought from at least the bronze age forward.
Imperial China sought and won regional hegemony in that period too. So hegemony is a very old phenomenon.
However, global hegemony has only been seen as possible in the modern era. Both world wars and the current one all occurred under a particular economic system. China, although, communist in name, long ago shifted to this same economic system: Capitalism. So, regardless of the intentions or aspirations of it’s ruling class, it will be subject to these laws just as every country “good” or “bad” are.
But unlike the old western imperialism, China has come to capitalism under a unique historical experience. For 200 years it was raped by the western imperialists, then under the tutelage of the Soviets, it developed a socialist revolutionary movement that won power and radically changed the country. However, it could only aquire a Stalinist or deformed Socialism from the Soviets. I say deformed because this Stalinist socialism focused primarily on the national situation without the international component that was essential to Marx, Lenin and the original Bolshevik party. With no connection to the international revolution, Soviet Russia and China pursued separate national utopias that could not withstand the pressure of a globalized Capitalist economy dominated by the west and primarily US imperialism.
The Russian Soviet collapsed, but the Chinese CCP retained power by adapting to global capitalism, essentially providing it’s workers for inexpensive exploitation by western Capital, which was so attractive, the west long ago sent all it’s production to China, which allowed china to copy advanced techniques and gain a high status within imperialist organizations like the WTO.
Based on it’s tragic and painful entry into the modern Capitalist world China has approached the system differently. Instead of allowing any excess to the economic elite, it attempts successfully so far to tame Capitalism to extract what it wants while maintaining dominance over individual capitalist excesses. It is essentially a reformed version of Capitalism as were many countries post WW2. Another quality, unique today, given its size and power, is that it does not use it’s military power abroad to gain advantage over it’s competitors.
Ultimately, today China is the most advanced form of Capitalism on the planet. Nonetheless, it is still subject to the laws of Capitalism. It has now been pushed into imperialist struggle wether it likes it or not and has thus developed the military muscle to engage in the contest, when needed.
China’s actions on the global stage are mostly consistent with the aspirations stated in this article today. But, the logic of it’s economic system and the world economic system will force it into imperialist struggle and that process will change it’s character to some extent.
It could be that the CCP has not forgotten it’s socialist lessons, it’s being trampled under the imperialists of the west. Maybe its Capitalism is just a stage of development before it makes good on its socialist rhetoric and advances to a higher economic system that is actually capable of achieving their stated aspirations and then exports that revolution to the workers of the west.
But there is another darker side to China’s capitalism that it’s mass of workers can attest to and could be imported to many countries as it advances on the world stage.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1926/02/europe.htm. In his essay, Europe and America, Trotsky deals with a dying and a rising imperialism. Many of the issues raised in this essay could be seen as a rough guide to the situation.
Short answer: they are capitalists and subject to the laws of development of that system, which is now in it’s terminal stage. They are also led by a tight clever bureaucracy that seems to have learned something about capitalism and seeks to control it without moving to a higher stage of socioeconomic development. Ultimately, it remains to be seen what China has in store for the workers of the world, but it is clear as day what it’s rival western imperialism has in store for us: mass death, poverty, ecocide, cultural perversion, etc.
Barring nuclear Holocaust, china and it’s allies will win the world. What they will do with it is an open question.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Sep 28 2023 17:02 utc | 271

Regional hegemony has been sought from at least the bronze age forward.
Imperial China sought and won regional hegemony in that period too. So hegemony is a very old phenomenon.
However, global hegemony has only been seen as possible in the modern era. Both world wars and the current one all occurred under a particular economic system. China, although, communist in name, long ago shifted to this same economic system: Capitalism. So, regardless of the intentions or aspirations of it’s ruling class, it will be subject to these laws just as every country “good” or “bad” are.
But unlike the old western imperialism, China has come to capitalism under a unique historical experience. For 200 years it was raped by the western imperialists, then under the tutelage of the Soviets, it developed a socialist revolutionary movement that won power and radically changed the country. However, it could only aquire a Stalinist or deformed Socialism from the Soviets. I say deformed because this Stalinist socialism focused primarily on the national situation without the international component that was essential to Marx, Lenin and the original Bolshevik party. With no connection to the international revolution, Soviet Russia and China pursued separate national utopias that could not withstand the pressure of a globalized Capitalist economy dominated by the west and primarily US imperialism.
The Russian Soviet collapsed, but the Chinese CCP retained power by adapting to global capitalism, essentially providing it’s workers for inexpensive exploitation by western Capital, which was so attractive, the west long ago sent all it’s production to China, which allowed china to copy advanced techniques and gain a high status within imperialist organizations like the WTO.
Based on it’s tragic and painful entry into the modern Capitalist world China has approached the system differently. Instead of allowing any excess to the economic elite, it attempts successfully so far to tame Capitalism to extract what it wants while maintaining dominance over individual capitalist excesses. It is essentially a reformed version of Capitalism as were many countries post WW2. Another quality, unique today, given its size and power, is that it does not use it’s military power abroad to gain advantage over it’s competitors.
Ultimately, today China is the most advanced form of Capitalism on the planet. Nonetheless, it is still subject to the laws of Capitalism. It has now been pushed into imperialist struggle wether it likes it or not and has thus developed the military muscle to engage in the contest, when needed.
China’s actions on the global stage are mostly consistent with the aspirations stated in this article today. But, the logic of it’s economic system and the world economic system will force it into imperialist struggle and that process will change it’s character to some extent.
It could be that the CCP has not forgotten it’s socialist lessons, it’s being trampled under the imperialists of the west. Maybe its Capitalism is just a stage of development before it makes good on its socialist rhetoric and advances to a higher economic system that is actually capable of achieving their stated aspirations and then exports that revolution to the workers of the west.
But there is another darker side to China’s capitalism that it’s mass of workers can attest to and could be imported to many countries as it advances on the world stage.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1926/02/europe.htm. In his essay, Europe and America, Trotsky deals with a dying and a rising imperialism. Many of the issues raised in this essay could be seen as a rough guide to the situation.
Short answer: they are capitalists and subject to the laws of development of that system, which is now in it’s terminal stage. They are also led by a tight clever bureaucracy that seems to have learned something about capitalism and seeks to control it without moving to a higher stage of socioeconomic development. Ultimately, it remains to be seen what China has in store for the workers of the world, but it is clear as day what it’s rival western imperialism has in store for us: mass death, poverty, ecocide, cultural perversion, etc.
Barring nuclear Holocaust, china and it’s allies will win the world. What they will do with it is an open question.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Sep 28 2023 17:02 utc | 272

And China has 56 ethnic groups to keep happy.
Posted by: Surferket | Sep 28 2023 11:52 utc | 34
##############
When I read this it made me think about how divisive America is with its different groups. Less so the Europeans, although those countries have much less internal ethnic diversity, most of their discord has come between themselves and fellow Europeans (French vs. British, French vs. Germans, etc.).
Russia, like China, has found ways to progress peacefully together (sans State Department/NGO color revolutions).
Maybe not engaging in deliberately inflammatory and antagonistic is a corollary of being an older civilization. The Bharatis still lag very far behind in this regard, but they are the most Western tainted of large Asian countries. The Globohomo rot always spreads.
China is super racist. I have heard that some Muslim ethnic groups in Russia are hyper-ethnocentric, but the relationship between these cultures and the state seems to be, for the most part, calm.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 28 2023 17:03 utc | 273

And China has 56 ethnic groups to keep happy.
Posted by: Surferket | Sep 28 2023 11:52 utc | 34
##############
When I read this it made me think about how divisive America is with its different groups. Less so the Europeans, although those countries have much less internal ethnic diversity, most of their discord has come between themselves and fellow Europeans (French vs. British, French vs. Germans, etc.).
Russia, like China, has found ways to progress peacefully together (sans State Department/NGO color revolutions).
Maybe not engaging in deliberately inflammatory and antagonistic is a corollary of being an older civilization. The Bharatis still lag very far behind in this regard, but they are the most Western tainted of large Asian countries. The Globohomo rot always spreads.
China is super racist. I have heard that some Muslim ethnic groups in Russia are hyper-ethnocentric, but the relationship between these cultures and the state seems to be, for the most part, calm.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 28 2023 17:03 utc | 274

97. Ooocanada
Well hailing from nazi Canada that is a pretty funny take on China.
Chinese have lots of personal rights and they do not honor Nazis they actually spend their time Not bombing the shit out of other countries! Not telling the rest of the world how to live. While keeping their people fed house and served by great education and healthcare and great rail system.

Posted by: Susan | Sep 28 2023 17:06 utc | 275

97. Ooocanada
Well hailing from nazi Canada that is a pretty funny take on China.
Chinese have lots of personal rights and they do not honor Nazis they actually spend their time Not bombing the shit out of other countries! Not telling the rest of the world how to live. While keeping their people fed house and served by great education and healthcare and great rail system.

Posted by: Susan | Sep 28 2023 17:06 utc | 276

I was married to a Chinese woman for 20 years. She had six brothers, and not a one of them wanted to live in China (they were all born in the Philippines). All but one emigrated to North America instead.
There are many China apologists here, and I acknowledge the work done by the CCP in jettisoning its hidebound communism, and allowing free enterprise to flourish. That is what has lifted China out of the poverty that it knew when I was a child (“There are millions of children starving in China!” is a phrase every child of the 50s knows by heart when staring at a plate of broccoli) into the thriving, if uneven, prosperity it enjoys today.
But I ask those who cheer for China to consider each of the following:
1 – What did the CCP do, with regard to increasing prosperity, except get out of the way? Encouraging free enterprise requires very little government activity.
2 – China is prey to the same fiscal mismanagement the West is. They also have huge deficits, a grossly overvalued property market (e.g. Evergrande collapse), and a demographic nightmare approaching.
3 – China has benefited economically by ignoring the pollution protocols of the West, particularly in regard to carbon. I am no believer in man-made climate change, so I don’t care about the CO2, but the amount of particulates exhausted by their ever-growing number of coal-fired power plants is a proven threat to the health of their people. Water and land pollution are other issues where lax Chinese standards enticed Western firms to off-shore rather than upgrade their domestic factories to meet the strict Western rules. One has to ask: if it’s bad for us in the West to pollute our land in search of a better economy, why is it good for China?
4 – Regardless of all other issues, there is one reason I distrust China. The CCP has taken power, permanently. It uses brutal and repressive means – I’ve seen the videos from Wuhan and Hong Kong, for example – to keep power and control. It does not allow a free and unsanitized Internet, or a free and unfettered press. That means its character is necessarily the characters of the people in power. And history has shown, repeatedly and across countries and cultures, that power attracts sociopaths, and that eventually, one of those sociopaths gains power. I am not suggesting the West is better – Trudeau freezes your bank account if you disagree with him – but I’m furious with the current crop of robber-barons in power in the West, and I’m very skeptical that robber-barons in Chinese dress will be any improvement.

Posted by: FrankDrakman | Sep 28 2023 17:06 utc | 277

I was married to a Chinese woman for 20 years. She had six brothers, and not a one of them wanted to live in China (they were all born in the Philippines). All but one emigrated to North America instead.
There are many China apologists here, and I acknowledge the work done by the CCP in jettisoning its hidebound communism, and allowing free enterprise to flourish. That is what has lifted China out of the poverty that it knew when I was a child (“There are millions of children starving in China!” is a phrase every child of the 50s knows by heart when staring at a plate of broccoli) into the thriving, if uneven, prosperity it enjoys today.
But I ask those who cheer for China to consider each of the following:
1 – What did the CCP do, with regard to increasing prosperity, except get out of the way? Encouraging free enterprise requires very little government activity.
2 – China is prey to the same fiscal mismanagement the West is. They also have huge deficits, a grossly overvalued property market (e.g. Evergrande collapse), and a demographic nightmare approaching.
3 – China has benefited economically by ignoring the pollution protocols of the West, particularly in regard to carbon. I am no believer in man-made climate change, so I don’t care about the CO2, but the amount of particulates exhausted by their ever-growing number of coal-fired power plants is a proven threat to the health of their people. Water and land pollution are other issues where lax Chinese standards enticed Western firms to off-shore rather than upgrade their domestic factories to meet the strict Western rules. One has to ask: if it’s bad for us in the West to pollute our land in search of a better economy, why is it good for China?
4 – Regardless of all other issues, there is one reason I distrust China. The CCP has taken power, permanently. It uses brutal and repressive means – I’ve seen the videos from Wuhan and Hong Kong, for example – to keep power and control. It does not allow a free and unsanitized Internet, or a free and unfettered press. That means its character is necessarily the characters of the people in power. And history has shown, repeatedly and across countries and cultures, that power attracts sociopaths, and that eventually, one of those sociopaths gains power. I am not suggesting the West is better – Trudeau freezes your bank account if you disagree with him – but I’m furious with the current crop of robber-barons in power in the West, and I’m very skeptical that robber-barons in Chinese dress will be any improvement.

Posted by: FrankDrakman | Sep 28 2023 17:06 utc | 278

At this point, anyone purveying the Wuigger nonsense can be assumed is a paid shill.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 28 2023 17:10 utc | 279

At this point, anyone purveying the Wuigger nonsense can be assumed is a paid shill.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 28 2023 17:10 utc | 280

Surferket | Sep 28 2023 10:25 utc | 13–
Thanks for the promotion! Some have expressed having trouble finding the link to the Word doc provided by the White Paper notice. It’s in the line that begins with Full Text: As I’ve mentioned many times, the White Paper Archive contains many important papers.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 28 2023 17:13 utc | 281

Surferket | Sep 28 2023 10:25 utc | 13–
Thanks for the promotion! Some have expressed having trouble finding the link to the Word doc provided by the White Paper notice. It’s in the line that begins with Full Text: As I’ve mentioned many times, the White Paper Archive contains many important papers.

Posted by: karlof1 | Sep 28 2023 17:13 utc | 282

My personal misgiving is that modern secularism will not prove a good foundation for long-lasting civilization, but what do I know?
Time will tell.
Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 16:58 utc | 132
################
Where are the great secular artists producing what will be enduring and classic art?
Art is culture, and without culture, civilization is thin gruel.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 28 2023 17:15 utc | 283

My personal misgiving is that modern secularism will not prove a good foundation for long-lasting civilization, but what do I know?
Time will tell.
Posted by: Scorpion | Sep 28 2023 16:58 utc | 132
################
Where are the great secular artists producing what will be enduring and classic art?
Art is culture, and without culture, civilization is thin gruel.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 28 2023 17:15 utc | 284

Posted by: FrankDrakman | Sep 28 2023 17:06 utc | 138
############
The problem with governance by humans is always related to human nature. And humans, in my experience, regardless of race, gender, or creed are very consistently human.
There are no good governments. Just more and less bad ones.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 28 2023 17:19 utc | 285

Posted by: FrankDrakman | Sep 28 2023 17:06 utc | 138
############
The problem with governance by humans is always related to human nature. And humans, in my experience, regardless of race, gender, or creed are very consistently human.
There are no good governments. Just more and less bad ones.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Sep 28 2023 17:19 utc | 286

China does not have the “bloodline” platform with a pathological WILL to rule the world that goes on and on and on with changing hosts hundreds of years at a time. I just hope that China is not the next host picked by the European “bloodline” families.

Posted by: srjr | Sep 28 2023 17:20 utc | 287

China does not have the “bloodline” platform with a pathological WILL to rule the world that goes on and on and on with changing hosts hundreds of years at a time. I just hope that China is not the next host picked by the European “bloodline” families.

Posted by: srjr | Sep 28 2023 17:20 utc | 288

There is a large cultural divide between the West and China/Russia/RoW. And no, it is only partly ancient and for the most part recent.
Postmodernism in all its versions, today cultural mainstream in the West, is incompatible with the industriousness of the developing world. When they stop being developing and become developed, it is the question whether they will be able to stop the postmodern civilisation-murdering virus.
Dare I say that its existence may be the best explanation for Fermi’s paradox.
So whathever we read from publications on state positions of this or that issue, including global politics, pales in comaprison to the ideological divide. It is so great that we are well underway on our second year of a million-casualty armed conflict and noone bats an eye, it seems normal.

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 28 2023 17:21 utc | 289

There is a large cultural divide between the West and China/Russia/RoW. And no, it is only partly ancient and for the most part recent.
Postmodernism in all its versions, today cultural mainstream in the West, is incompatible with the industriousness of the developing world. When they stop being developing and become developed, it is the question whether they will be able to stop the postmodern civilisation-murdering virus.
Dare I say that its existence may be the best explanation for Fermi’s paradox.
So whathever we read from publications on state positions of this or that issue, including global politics, pales in comaprison to the ideological divide. It is so great that we are well underway on our second year of a million-casualty armed conflict and noone bats an eye, it seems normal.

Posted by: alek_a | Sep 28 2023 17:21 utc | 290

Posted by: FrankDrakman | Sep 28 2023 17:06 utc | 138
You were not married to a Chinese woman, you were married to a Philippinian woman that happened to have Chinese parents.
The rest is usual USA/West ranting.
Climate protocol is a relatively new thing and China is not the only country that didn’t confirm to it.
Maybe I’m wrong but US did recede from Kyioto agreement.

Posted by: Mario | Sep 28 2023 17:25 utc | 291

Posted by: FrankDrakman | Sep 28 2023 17:06 utc | 138
You were not married to a Chinese woman, you were married to a Philippinian woman that happened to have Chinese parents.
The rest is usual USA/West ranting.
Climate protocol is a relatively new thing and China is not the only country that didn’t confirm to it.
Maybe I’m wrong but US did recede from Kyioto agreement.

Posted by: Mario | Sep 28 2023 17:25 utc | 292

It seems to me there are two categories of hegemony, similar to the way there are two categories of property.
There is what might be called emergent hegemony, which arises from an accumulation of prosperity, influence, regard, and significance placing the possessor thereof in a predominant position.
That contrasts with what might be called sought/acquired hegemony, which arises from coercion, possibly using, but not because of, prosperity, influence, regard, and significance.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 28 2023 17:25 utc | 293

It seems to me there are two categories of hegemony, similar to the way there are two categories of property.
There is what might be called emergent hegemony, which arises from an accumulation of prosperity, influence, regard, and significance placing the possessor thereof in a predominant position.
That contrasts with what might be called sought/acquired hegemony, which arises from coercion, possibly using, but not because of, prosperity, influence, regard, and significance.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Sep 28 2023 17:25 utc | 294

History begs to differ: human nature abhors power vacuums, and every great power that has ever existed has attempted to establish a hegemony with varying degrees of success. The Chinese are no different. We know so because the Chinese themselves have established hegemonies over East Asia in the past.

Posted by: Monos | Sep 28 2023 17:43 utc | 295

History begs to differ: human nature abhors power vacuums, and every great power that has ever existed has attempted to establish a hegemony with varying degrees of success. The Chinese are no different. We know so because the Chinese themselves have established hegemonies over East Asia in the past.

Posted by: Monos | Sep 28 2023 17:43 utc | 296

China’s decade old concept
Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away movement of the stars circling the VOID remembered as World War (among descentants, heirs, and assignees of Hapsburg kingdoms) began to coalesce into NEW! spheres of “influence” —OPEC (1960 FTA), OAU/AU55 (1963/2002 FTA), ASEAN (1967 FTA), OIC (1969 NGO)—
Then what happened?
In 1974 Deng Xiaoping/Teng Hsiao-Ping took the Declaration on the Establishment of a New International Economic Order to the UNGA.

1. The greatest and most significant achievement during the last decades has been the independence from colonial and alien domination of a large number of peoples and nations which has enabled them to become members of the community of free peoples. Technological progress has also been made in all spheres of economic activities in the last three decades, thus providing a solid potential for improving the well-being of all peoples. However, the remaining vestiges of alien and colonial domination, foreign occupation, racial discrimination, apartheid, and neo-colonialism in all its forms continue to be among the greatest obstacles to the full emancipation and progress of the developing countries and all the peoples involved…..
2. The present international economic order is in direct conflict with curren development in international political and economic relations. Since 1970, the world economy has experienced a series of grave crises which have had severe repercussions, especially on the developing countries because of their generally greater vulnerability to external economic impulses….
3. All these changes have thrust into prominence the reality of interdependence of all the members of the world community. Current events [OPEC embargo, 2nd Bretton Woods collapse] have brought into sharp focus the realization that the interests of the developed countries and those of the developing countries can no longer be isolated from each other, that there is a close interrelationship between the prosperity of the developed countries and the prosperity of the international community as a whole depends on the prosperity of its constituent parts. International co-operation for development is the shared goal and common duty of all countries.
4. The new international economic order should be founded on full respect for the following principles: …
5. The unanimous adoption of the International Development Strategy for the Second United Nations Development Decade was an important step in the promotion of international economic co-operation on a just and equitable basis….
6. The United Nations as a universal organization should be capable of dealing with problems of international economic co-operation in a comprehensive manner and ensuring equally the interests of all countries….
7. The present Declaration on the Establishment of a New International Economic Order shall be one of the most important bases of economic relations between all peoples and all nations….

Then what happened (other than serial “advanced economy” value chain bankruptcy, Global Wars on Trrrsm, and ineffectual “de-radicalization” arbitrage)?
ROW formed more mutual aid societies—APEC (1989 FTA), SCO (2001 NGO), BRICS (2009 FTA), EaEU (2012 FTA)—despite a hastily arranged conference of the G20 (1999 NGO) by the nine heads of the G7 to rehabilitate financial TIES! LINKS! SUPPLY CHAINS! with their bare-foot, perpetually pregnant “third-country” uhh partners.
Then what happened (other than fortification of the willing d/b/a the Price Cap Coalition, “home to many best-in-class financial and professional services”)?
This new year, one the most ignorant “outlets” of imperial highjinks rallied stakeholders around a memo sent by Sam Olsen, CEO of The Evenstar Institute, a nonpartisan, nonprofit think tank in London, and co-host of the “What China Wants” LOL! podcast.

… Recent research LOL! by The Evenstar Institute, a London-based think tank, shows how much influence China has over third-party LOL! countries that are vital for the West’s supply chain. Take Cambodia, which the Evenstar influence model LOL! shows is almost a client state of China; it is also an important provider of uniforms to the British and other militaries. Indeed, China is a critical supplier of components and raw materials to countries that are vital for Western interests….

Then what happened (other than rapid dissipation of advanced economies’ “stategic autonomy” FKA hegemony)?
In the St. George Hall of the Grand Kremlin Palace, Messrs. Putin and Xi, two heads of state joined to two WB-certified upper middle-income states, committed to “wide-ranging cooperation and significant strides into the new era”.
Then what happened (other than this epiphany: “We cannot change the geology in Europe”)?
NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg memorialized Mr. Olsen’s sentimental appeal to crush competition wherever it lurks.

[…]
ZDF: Thanks. Secretary General, I have a more general question on China. As the view on China changed, are you ready to change, or is NATO ready to change the Strategic Concept towards China?
Stoltenberg: No. The reality is that the “Strategic Concept” we agreed in Madrid reflects NATO’s or, as I say, a new recognition of what China means for our security, because I think we need to realize that NATO has come a long way when it comes to China. In the “Strategic Concept” we had until last summer, China was not mentioned with a single word. Then, in the “Strategic Concept” we agreed in Madrid, in June last year, we made important decisions. We don’t regard China as an adversary. But we stated clearly in the “Strategic Concept” that China’s assertive behaviour poses a challenge to our interests, our values, our security….

Then what happened?
President Xi Jinping Attempted to Communicate the importance of international cooperation to French President Emmanuel Macron
Then what happened?

Posted by: sln2002 | Sep 28 2023 17:43 utc | 297

China’s decade old concept
Long, long ago in a galaxy far, far away movement of the stars circling the VOID remembered as World War (among descentants, heirs, and assignees of Hapsburg kingdoms) began to coalesce into NEW! spheres of “influence” —OPEC (1960 FTA), OAU/AU55 (1963/2002 FTA), ASEAN (1967 FTA), OIC (1969 NGO)—
Then what happened?
In 1974 Deng Xiaoping/Teng Hsiao-Ping took the Declaration on the Establishment of a New International Economic Order to the UNGA.

1. The greatest and most significant achievement during the last decades has been the independence from colonial and alien domination of a large number of peoples and nations which has enabled them to become members of the community of free peoples. Technological progress has also been made in all spheres of economic activities in the last three decades, thus providing a solid potential for improving the well-being of all peoples. However, the remaining vestiges of alien and colonial domination, foreign occupation, racial discrimination, apartheid, and neo-colonialism in all its forms continue to be among the greatest obstacles to the full emancipation and progress of the developing countries and all the peoples involved…..
2. The present international economic order is in direct conflict with curren development in international political and economic relations. Since 1970, the world economy has experienced a series of grave crises which have had severe repercussions, especially on the developing countries because of their generally greater vulnerability to external economic impulses….
3. All these changes have thrust into prominence the reality of interdependence of all the members of the world community. Current events [OPEC embargo, 2nd Bretton Woods collapse] have brought into sharp focus the realization that the interests of the developed countries and those of the developing countries can no longer be isolated from each other, that there is a close interrelationship between the prosperity of the developed countries and the prosperity of the international community as a whole depends on the prosperity of its constituent parts. International co-operation for development is the shared goal and common duty of all countries.
4. The new international economic order should be founded on full respect for the following principles: …
5. The unanimous adoption of the International Development Strategy for the Second United Nations Development Decade was an important step in the promotion of international economic co-operation on a just and equitable basis….
6. The United Nations as a universal organization should be capable of dealing with problems of international economic co-operation in a comprehensive manner and ensuring equally the interests of all countries….
7. The present Declaration on the Establishment of a New International Economic Order shall be one of the most important bases of economic relations between all peoples and all nations….

Then what happened (other than serial “advanced economy” value chain bankruptcy, Global Wars on Trrrsm, and ineffectual “de-radicalization” arbitrage)?
ROW formed more mutual aid societies—APEC (1989 FTA), SCO (2001 NGO), BRICS (2009 FTA), EaEU (2012 FTA)—despite a hastily arranged conference of the G20 (1999 NGO) by the nine heads of the G7 to rehabilitate financial TIES! LINKS! SUPPLY CHAINS! with their bare-foot, perpetually pregnant “third-country” uhh partners.
Then what happened (other than fortification of the willing d/b/a the Price Cap Coalition, “home to many best-in-class financial and professional services”)?
This new year, one the most ignorant “outlets” of imperial highjinks rallied stakeholders around a memo sent by Sam Olsen, CEO of The Evenstar Institute, a nonpartisan, nonprofit think tank in London, and co-host of the “What China Wants” LOL! podcast.

… Recent research LOL! by The Evenstar Institute, a London-based think tank, shows how much influence China has over third-party LOL! countries that are vital for the West’s supply chain. Take Cambodia, which the Evenstar influence model LOL! shows is almost a client state of China; it is also an important provider of uniforms to the British and other militaries. Indeed, China is a critical supplier of components and raw materials to countries that are vital for Western interests….

Then what happened (other than rapid dissipation of advanced economies’ “stategic autonomy” FKA hegemony)?
In the St. George Hall of the Grand Kremlin Palace, Messrs. Putin and Xi, two heads of state joined to two WB-certified upper middle-income states, committed to “wide-ranging cooperation and significant strides into the new era”.
Then what happened (other than this epiphany: “We cannot change the geology in Europe”)?
NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg memorialized Mr. Olsen’s sentimental appeal to crush competition wherever it lurks.

[…]
ZDF: Thanks. Secretary General, I have a more general question on China. As the view on China changed, are you ready to change, or is NATO ready to change the Strategic Concept towards China?
Stoltenberg: No. The reality is that the “Strategic Concept” we agreed in Madrid reflects NATO’s or, as I say, a new recognition of what China means for our security, because I think we need to realize that NATO has come a long way when it comes to China. In the “Strategic Concept” we had until last summer, China was not mentioned with a single word. Then, in the “Strategic Concept” we agreed in Madrid, in June last year, we made important decisions. We don’t regard China as an adversary. But we stated clearly in the “Strategic Concept” that China’s assertive behaviour poses a challenge to our interests, our values, our security….

Then what happened?
President Xi Jinping Attempted to Communicate the importance of international cooperation to French President Emmanuel Macron
Then what happened?

Posted by: sln2002 | Sep 28 2023 17:43 utc | 298

Should we therefore trust its claims that it rejects hegemony, not only of others but also for itself?
Posted b

I believe the claim has some support in the Chinese collective culture. This has been my own discovery after living four months in China in 2012 on a large campus and strolling around the Qingdao area during the week-ends. That does not mean that the Chinese wont act selfishly at times and that does not mean they wont adopt the zero-sum approach if the win-win approach fails. I didn’t make a scientific study on that topic but that would be my starting point if I had to.
Rhetorical statements can’t be taken as a blueprint of fhe future. The rhetoric may be the start of a process and such processes that were initiated by China on a win-win basis are the BRI and other local initiatives to create links between many countries in most parts of the globe except some European countries and North-America.
Not all issues have a solution even with a win-win approach such as for example the fine points of intellectual property and free access to internal markets and the normalization of business laws between countries. That’s life. Conflicts will subsist everywhere there are more than a couple of people. And if some of the people have unrealistic expectations, poor intellects or psychiatric disorders conflicts will become crises.
There is no garantee that the Chinese or anyone else will not become eventually an imperial power itself. That shouldn’t be a consideration for anyone whose actions are not dictated by fear but by his own honest judgment. What I mean is that people who act honestly based on their own views like Hungary does have more impact on the future than those who obey the dictats of the hegemon such as Japan and many Western countries currently do.

Posted by: Richard L | Sep 28 2023 17:52 utc | 299

Should we therefore trust its claims that it rejects hegemony, not only of others but also for itself?
Posted b

I believe the claim has some support in the Chinese collective culture. This has been my own discovery after living four months in China in 2012 on a large campus and strolling around the Qingdao area during the week-ends. That does not mean that the Chinese wont act selfishly at times and that does not mean they wont adopt the zero-sum approach if the win-win approach fails. I didn’t make a scientific study on that topic but that would be my starting point if I had to.
Rhetorical statements can’t be taken as a blueprint of fhe future. The rhetoric may be the start of a process and such processes that were initiated by China on a win-win basis are the BRI and other local initiatives to create links between many countries in most parts of the globe except some European countries and North-America.
Not all issues have a solution even with a win-win approach such as for example the fine points of intellectual property and free access to internal markets and the normalization of business laws between countries. That’s life. Conflicts will subsist everywhere there are more than a couple of people. And if some of the people have unrealistic expectations, poor intellects or psychiatric disorders conflicts will become crises.
There is no garantee that the Chinese or anyone else will not become eventually an imperial power itself. That shouldn’t be a consideration for anyone whose actions are not dictated by fear but by his own honest judgment. What I mean is that people who act honestly based on their own views like Hungary does have more impact on the future than those who obey the dictats of the hegemon such as Japan and many Western countries currently do.

Posted by: Richard L | Sep 28 2023 17:52 utc | 300