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August 24, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-201
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Posted today:
Russian forces have destroyed over 6,000 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles since the start of the special military operation in Ukraine, Konashenkov reported.
“In all, the following targets have been destroyed since the beginning of the special military operation: 462 warplanes, 246 helicopters, 6,012 unmanned aerial vehicles, 433 surface-to-air missile systems, 11,476 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 1,144 multiple rocket launchers, 6,024 field artillery guns and mortars and 12,408 special military motor vehicles,” the spokesman said.
Someone on the thread was keeping account . Only thing I meant to ask her/him was if he knew what Ukraine started with.
Anyways, here’s the latest.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 14:02 utc | 1
Reposting and will follow with other recent follow up articles regarding “fall”….
“After a conversation with the president, I can say that <…> I received a proof of his remark that we haven’t begun anything yet. And there will be lots of interesting [developments] this fall,” he told the Rossiya-24 television cahnnel“
I’m guessing this major offensive will happen mid-late October. Why? Because the UNSC is now chaired by UK this month, and will rotate in September to US, who will try all kinds of “international” UN nonsense, perhaps even something with the ZNPP again.
Also, President Xi due for State visit in October.
Guessing shortly after his departure, offensive will begin.
I don’t remember who chairs UNSC in October.
https://tass.com/politics/1664459
Anyways, fact it was published, for Russians, yesterday, well sorry, but believe this is a “take it to the bank” decision.
I’ve been wondering, at what point on a legal level, will it move to a “Declaration of War “? Or will this offensive stay at SMO level?
Well, I see it as serious anyways.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 14:08 utc | 2
>… President Xi due for State visit in October.
What’s the latest on Putin’s August visit to Turkiye?
On. Off.on.off?
Off on off ?
Posted by: Melaleuca | Aug 24 2023 14:12 utc | 3
What happened with the Iranians and the ship they were engaging?
Posted by: Cocoliso | Aug 24 2023 14:19 utc | 4
Curious why the majors like “Moon” haven’t highlighted the Russian Research Report submitted to the UN saying the US broke the bio-weapon development ban in the Ukraine, and around the world – including who funded it, and who the political folks in the US providing the funding, and how they make new viruses that the pharmaceutical firms make vaccines for. Russia accuses the US of targeting races in their development of viruses while saying they are not racist. ARE WE NOT ALL VICTIMS OF THESE BIOWEAPONS?
Posted by: JimG | Aug 24 2023 14:30 utc | 5
Re: Posted by: Melaleuca | Aug 24 2023 14:12 utc | 3
Visit switched to Turkey going to Russia in Sept. then back to Aug. Turkey is hemorrhaging a “look good” moment on grain deal, and so far, Russia isn’t having it. According to Larov “nothings changed” . I’m getting the impression Putin is not too interested in meeting with him atm. But apparently has offered him a good “side deal” on grain and fertilizers. Russia also seemed to defend Turkey at a closed UNSC recent meeting regarding incursion and injuries of UN peacekeepers at Cypriot borders.
So, the “at-arms length” relationship they have is holding. Turkey today raised interest due to crashing Lira, and now major fires after EQ. So, difficult times, and Erdogan (his military actually) stated a hard core stance on observationing “Monteaux (?) Convention Treaty” and gave zero intention, grain deal or no, off changing their stance.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 14:33 utc | 6
Posted by: Larry P. Johnson | Aug 24 2023 12:03 utc | 351
Amalgamation vs. annexation
Americans joined with the people living in Texas to fight Spain/Mexico for the independence of Texas. Later, The Republic of Texas joined the USA in an amalgamation. Texas became a State in the USA.
Russia has joined with the people of Republics that were a part of Ukraine, helping them to fight for their independence. Those independent Republics have already voted to join Russia, to be a part of an amalgamation, and Russia has accepted.
Posted by: barstool | Aug 24 2023 14:49 utc | 7
Merlin @ 7
Analysis of ukr shirtless tank men concludes they were high. Autopsy results should be published detailing illegal narcotics whether dosing was known or not.
Maybe the air conditioning was broken. I’m not kidding, ever been in a NYC subway car with the AC broken? On the other hand there is a Berserker quality to the BIG counter offensive.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Aug 24 2023 14:54 utc | 8
Any theories on Pregozhin assassination?
My best guess is that it was a Biden – CIA hit to divert from US huge strategic defeat with Saudi joining BRICS – and the loss of his leadership of Wagner troops possible intervention in Niger was a collateral benefit.
Posted by: bill wolfe | Aug 24 2023 15:02 utc | 9
Amalgamation vs Annexation ? Of Donbas etc
The most accurate word is likely Federation or Union , as in Australia and USA / Greece ( Crete and Unsuccessfully …Cyprus ) respectively. Even confederation will do , but this implies different states united against one enemy ie Confederate States of USA and Switzerland.
The Donbas ,and Lugansk were always Russian ,part of Novorussia going back to the late 1700s. Crimea the same era. So they are officially in union with Russia due to their shared history and ethnic composition.
Belorussia and Russia are also in union but more accurately should be called a confederation , due to them being slightly different peoples. Slightly Different peoples? Russians and Belorussians admit this themselves . Confederation due to them being now in union against a common enemy; NATO.
The UK is in union, but is still made of different peoples , even though their monarchs were subsumed by those of England.
Posted by: Wondrous | Aug 24 2023 15:05 utc | 10
Pregozhin might not even be dead. He most likely is, but it could be diversion.
If he is/was active in Africa, Niger, it would be logical to include the French as suspects. I don’t think they are any better than the British or the Americans, which by themselves are also suspects.
There is mentioning of “expensive wines”. Could hide a bomb.
Then The Russians and the Ukrainians would also be on the list, if the plane was shot down.
Rivalry within Wagner can not be ruled out, and of course it is possible that it was an accident.
I think the Americans did it, when everything is said and done.
Posted by: g wiltek | Aug 24 2023 15:11 utc | 11
Does anyone remember what Prigozhin was saying as he rolled towards Moscow? He was absolutely flying a kite for a mass uprising, having completely overestimated his own popularity probably due to reading fawning commentary online and off, and if an uprising had happened he would merrily have ridden that wave. He saw himself listed in the history books alongside Caesar and Cromwell.
The sheer stupidity of his move took everyone by surprise, including Putin, and when Prigozhin wasn’t immediately executed, the seeds of doubt and insurrection were sown among powerful military leaders.
But Putin was simply analysing the real situation, making a list, and not rushing into anything. How, he asked himself, how did this happen? Why did nobody see this coming, including the greasy Anglos, who were caught completely wrong-footed and unable to take advantage of this unbelievable opportunity?
So Putin had Prigozhin and most of the Wagner leaders killed when the complete swivel-eyed burn-after-readingness of the situation was confirmed, other troublesome officers pushed aside or sent on “holiday”, and the message is as loud and clear as a bell, not only to the Russian military leaders but to the people of Russia.
And if you think they disapprove you have another think coming.
Wagner won’t go charging in like avenging angels, they’re mercs, they work for money and occasionally benefits like pardons. The boss got offed but I still have all my fingers and toes? Great.
They’ll either continue as a mercenary company or be quietly disbanded, without resistance. My guess is they’ll continue to be used as a valuable foreign asset, providing superb deniability in proxy wars and African conflicts.
This does not by the way depict Putin as a tyrant, gangster or dictator – it demonstrates the ability of a man who has some very large and dangerous dogs on a leash, dogs who will never run for election, and need to be reminded from time to time who is in charge. Any gangster-ish elements are remainders of and the best way to deal with American interference in Russia.
Posted by: Due West | Aug 24 2023 15:15 utc | 12
LCI, the main fanatically pro-Ukrainian news channel in France, is currently crowing about an operation last night where Ukrainian special forces claim to have landed at a remote beach in western Crimea and hoisted their flag ‘for the first time since 2014’. The Ukrainians are claiming they suffered no losses, whereas there were casualties among the Russians. LCI is attempting to inflate the ‘symbolic’ importance of the operation in the information war: ‘the Russians can’t even protect Crimean beaches’.
If the story is true, it does seem to indicate a surveillance shortcoming by the Russian forces in Crimea, even if there will be no effect on the war itself.
Posted by: B. Wildered | Aug 24 2023 15:16 utc | 13
The wine box story smells like BS to me. The plane clearly had lost a wing at the getgo.
Explosives in the storage compartment small enough to fit in a wine box would not do that. Imo
AD or Stinger type weapon is more likely.
Posted by: Comandante | Aug 24 2023 15:16 utc | 14
So Putin had Prigozhin and most of the Wagner leaders killed when the complete swivel-eyed burn-after-readingness of the situation was confirmed, other troublesome officers pushed aside or sent on “holiday”, and the message is as loud and clear as a bell, not only to the Russian military leaders but to the people of Russia.
And if you think they disapprove you have another think coming.
Wagner won’t go charging in like avenging angels, they’re mercs, they work for money and occasionally benefits like pardons. The boss got offed but I still have all my fingers and toes? Great.
They’ll either continue as a mercenary company or be quietly disbanded, without resistance. My guess is they’ll continue to be used as a valuable foreign asset, providing superb deniability in proxy wars and African conflicts.
This does not by the way depict Putin as a tyrant, gangster or dictator – it demonstrates the ability of a man who has some very large and dangerous dogs on a leash, dogs who will never run for election, and need to be reminded from time to time who is in charge. Any gangster-ish elements are remainders of and the best way to deal with American interference in Russia.
Posted by: Due West | Aug 24 2023 15:15 utc | 13
Russian intelligence also got a lot of data on foreign agents and potential traitors, and fifth columnists inside Russia during those events. There were lot of these people taking the bait and jumping out of the shadows, but obviously, it never had much support from the state services, government or population.
Posted by: unimperator | Aug 24 2023 15:22 utc | 15
@ barstool | Aug 24 2023 14:49 utc | 8
good point from larry.. thanks..
Posted by: james | Aug 24 2023 15:25 utc | 16
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Aug 24 2023 14:54 utc | 9
Crews would sometimes strip down to their undershorts in WW2 as temperatures in the fighting compartment soared to 50+ degrees in hot weather and the summer fighting, in Ukraine, is taking place in 30+ degree heat. To compound the problem modern MBT’s often have less crew space, though supposedly better ventilators, when they’re working that is.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 24 2023 15:32 utc | 17
Saboteurs landed in the Crimea and immediately rushed off
▪️The end of the video of the DRG of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, which in impenetrable darkness hung a flag on a wooden house in a campsite in the west of Crimea and urgently rushed off, shooting towards civilians.
▪️”We are already in the Crimea” – one of the militants said in a whisper with caution, then a quick photo for PR and ran back to the sea. The “photo-special operation” lasted 3 minutes on land.
▪️It is reported that our fighters eventually covered 4 boats with fire, 15-20 fighters were killed with American M4 rifles and a machine gun.
The other day Russian fighters did shoot up some of those speed boats, but whether they did in this case is unclear. There was another report according to which they landed and shot a grenade launcher toward a camp site and left.
Posted by: unimperator | Aug 24 2023 15:33 utc | 18
🇷🇺🌍Exclusive: Wagner’s rotation in Africa and dialogue with the Russian government
Our sources told us interesting facts regarding the negotiations between Wagner PMC and Russian government that involve Africa and Wagner’s presence there.
Apparently, just the day before the plane, on which PMC’s boss Yevgeny Prigozhin allegedly was traveling to Moscow, crashed, an agreement was reached with one of the security agencies of the Russian Federation.
This agreement was made to separate Russian Ministry of Defense and Wagner, so to make them focus on different directions and tasks in the interests of the Russian Federation and make sure they don’t overlap each other, in order to prevent another conflict and “mutiny”.
Wagner was supposed to partially return to Ukraine and even more intensify its activities on the African continent.
So Russian idea was to increase the presence of the PMC in Africa and, following the idea of separation of tasks between Wagner and the Ministry of Defense, make the group one of the main Russian military actors on the continent.
🇷🇺🌍 Exclusive: Regarding the Russian delegation in Western Libya and its role to decrease the influence of Wagner in Africa
We received new additional bits of information about the conflict between Wagner and Russian government and the involvement of Africa in it. Previously we’ve told about the separation in tasks between Wagner PMC and Russian Ministry of Defense.
As we’ve found out, the story is not that simple. Yesterday we published news about the visit of the delegation from the Russian Ministry of Defense, headed by Deputy Defense Minister Colonel General Yunus-bek Yevkurov, to Western Libya where Khalifa Haftar forces are present (which, by the way, used the services of Prigozhin). Previously this delegation visited Syria.
Negotiations were not only about the cooperation and fighting terrorism together. As it turns out, Yunus-bek Yevkurov held meetings with the leadership of these countries and insisted on the winding down of all Wagner’s supporting business projects and withdrawal of PMC’s contingents. The most important part was that the decision had to be made independently by the governments of Syria and Western Libya to deflect negativity from the Russian leadership.
So on the one hand, Russian government tried to negotiate with the Wagner PMC and make it focus primarily on Africa. And on the other hand, the Ministry of Defense tried to persuade Libya to decrease the presence of Wagner’s forces.
🇷🇺🌍 Exclusive: Addition on how Russia banned Syria from receiving CAR flights
And to finish the talk about Wagner’s rotation, negotiations with the Russian government and the Ministry of Defense attempts to decrease PMC’s presence here are some additions to the story we’ve already covered about how Russia banned Syria from receiving CAR flights.
As we said, Wagner PMC had serious problems with rotation in Africa, because Foreign Ministry at the request of Ministry of Defense banned Prigozhin’s group from using Russian air bases in Syria for logistics needs that includes the use of aircrafts of the Russian Air Force for the transportation. After that Wagner started to use African and Syrian aircrafts. PMC chartered them at their own expense and used them for transportation. And they used Damscus as a new transfer point.
Russian Foreign Ministry found this out and wanted to bureaucratize the transfer of aircraft through Syria as much as possible. However, diplomats and the consul got it all mixed up and forbade Syria to receive Central African’s aircrafts. Everyone in Syria and CAR government were in shock.
It all came to a direct call from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Central African Republic to Deputy Foreign Minister of Russia Bogdanov, who was on vacation. Despite the call, the lack of understanding on all sides, including Bognadov who said that such case is impossible, the situation is still unresolved.
To sum up, Russian Ministry of Defense through Foreign Ministry was working very hard to disrupt the work of the Wagner PMC in Africa, while trying to make it as natural as possible (like it wasn’t their idea, but African’s). At the same time they tried to smooth things over with the group to prevent new conflict.
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 15:33 utc | 19
“President Putin claimed on Wednesday that it was “astonishing” to see how little the authorities in Kiev cared about Ukrainian soldiers. “They are throwing [them] on our minefields, under our artillery fire, acting as if they are not their own citizens at all,” the Russian leader said.” (source: RT)
Zelensky is a British citizen. Ukrainian soldiers are not. Well, mostly not.
How many members of his government are actually Ukrainian citizens only? How many members of the Rada hold dual citizenship?
Most of them have sent their families abroad.
It’s not worth asking about high-ranking military officials, the Ukrainian army receives its instructions from NATO anyway.
The German newspaper “Welt” suggests that Zelensky mobilize 3 million males – about all men left in Ukraine. It worked so well for the Third Reich. Those journalists definitely want to fight to the last Ukrainian. We pay Ukrainian salaries after all.
So why is Kiev’s behavior in any way astonishing?
Posted by: Martina | Aug 24 2023 15:35 utc | 20
Ukranazi D Day landing in Crimea!
….got repelled by a guy in shorts.
https://t.me/NovichokRossiya/37663
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Aug 24 2023 15:36 utc | 21
Ukraine takes a village.
. . .from criticalthreats:
“The evacuations and the presence of Ukrainian journalists suggests that areas of Robotyne may be relatively secure due to diminished Russian positions in the settlement itself and the nearby area. Russian maximalist claims that Ukrainian forces only maintain positions on the very northern outskirts of the settlement are likely false given the footage and reporting from the 47th Brigade. Most Russian milbloggers continue to acknowledge that Ukrainian forces hold positions in much of northern Robotyne and that Russian forces likely control at most positions on the southern outskirts of the settlement at this time.” . .here
The problem for Ukraine is the “southern outskirts” are higher terrain to the east, west and south of Robotyne are held by Russia and are part of ite defensive lines seen here and here.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 24 2023 15:37 utc | 22
@ Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 14:33 utc | 6
Turkey and Russia show an astonishing degree of mutually beneficial choices for countries that supposedly are not allied.
Frex, Russia’s interest rate increase made room for Turkey to do the same (given the high volume of trade between the two).
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Aug 24 2023 15:40 utc | 23
Re: Posted by: JimG | Aug 24 2023 14:30 utc | 5
“Russia accuses the US of targeting races in their development of viruses while saying they are not racist. ARE WE NOT ALL VICTIMS OF THESE BIOWEAPONS?”
As far as -b- and “Moon” posting or not, I don’t know.
Here are some recent articles from TASS
From what I see, the West stranglehold over ALL international organizations present day, prevents any “actionable” accountability measures from being implemented or even the current “legal UN requirements” being imposed.
https://tass.com/defense/1661183
https://tass.com/defense/1661197
More recently..BRICS (developing a small “WHO” ?)
https://tass.com/world/1664967
It’s not hard to see in Ukraine the futility of these “global levers” to hold US accountable for anything. Examples:
UN: Nuclear Power: ZNPP (crickets)
UN: Chemical : Russians have verified accounts of chemical usage on battlefield: (crickets)
UN: Human Rights (crickets)
UN: WTO infringement (crickets)
Yes, we are ALL victims of these bio weapons, but there are way too many Nations that will “go along to get along” till it’s too late.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 15:48 utc | 24
@ Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 15:48 utc | 25
thanks for this and your many other posts…
Posted by: james | Aug 24 2023 15:58 utc | 25
Posted by: B. Wildered | Aug 24 2023 15:16 utc | 14
Bit odd to have ‘a surveillance shortcoming’ if the Ukrainians can inflict casualties attacking a remote beach. Or is the Russian wildlife being included as enemy combatants? They do seem to love staging photo ops that get men killed, must be a sign of an army on the verge of victory.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 24 2023 15:37 utc | 23
70+ days (probably 78-9) late, so, the coast of Azov by late 2025-6.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 24 2023 16:00 utc | 26
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 15:33 utc | 20
If true , we should be very worried that Putin has no control over certain oligarchs and even departments in his government. Note, I still believe that the rebellion was fake and that Putin and Prighozin were in cahoots.
Such trouble in the ranks and top leadership is very common, and occurred with US President Roosevelt and US General Patton for instance ,and some say Roosevelt had Patton taken out via car-crash. US General Stillwell even had Chennault had Generallisimo Chiang Kai-Shek making trouble for him when the former was there to help him with the war against the Japanese. Roosevelt had to intervene many times .
Posted by: Wondrous | Aug 24 2023 16:00 utc | 27
@ Due West | Aug 24 2023 15:15 utc | 13
Prigozhin’s ‘mutiny’ was a scripted performance to remove Kremlin responsibility for future actions taken by Wagner. The ‘west’ fell for it hook line and sinker. Having now realized they were duped, they’ve found a way to exact an ultimately pointless revenge against Prigozhin.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Aug 24 2023 16:14 utc | 28
… Note, I still believe that the rebellion was fake and that Putin and Prighozin were in cahoots. …
Posted by: Wondrous | Aug 24 2023 16:00 utc | 28
That interpretation becomes progressively less believable with the benefit of ever greater hindsight, particularly the continued seclusion of Surovikin, who we must now accept knew and broadly approved of the rebellion, but not of the resulting bloodshed.
A rebellion, it should be noted, that had as its ultimate goal the deposing of Shoigu and Gerasimov. Lukashenko’s account of his own conversation with Prigozhin make this perfectly clear.
Everyone with an interest in the matter should mull over this rather obvious fact, and the fact that Surovikin almost certainly approved of the rebellion knowing that its goal was to depose Shoigu and Gerasimov.
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 16:25 utc | 29
Not sure what general reaction in Ukraine is to the ‘Prigozhin incident’. Checked Kyiv Post which has a generally conservative take but implicating the Kremlin as likely perpetrator if it wasn’t an accident. They claim Prigozhin’s body has already been identified though.
Posted by: the pessimist | Aug 24 2023 16:31 utc | 30
the continued seclusion of Surovikin, who we must now accept knew and broadly approved of the rebellion, but not of the resulting bloodshed.
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 16:25 utc | 30
We must accept none of your assumptions or characterizations stated here, such ad Surovikins “seclusion”, (says you), nor that he “broadly approved” of Prigo’s protest.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 16:31 utc | 31
The wine box story smells like BS to me. The plane clearly had lost a wing at the getgo.
Explosives in the storage compartment small enough to fit in a wine box would not do that. Imo
AD or Stinger type weapon is more likely.
Posted by: Comandante | Aug 24 2023 15:16 utc | 15
Wrong.
The volume of ONE wine bottle could hold enough C4, 1.75 pounds).
That is enough to cut a 14” steel I beam in half.
Depending on placement just that one bottle could do it, let alone a box of 6 or 12 depending on that case.
It would not have to cleanly cut it, just weaken it enough fast enough and the force already on the wing would do the rest.
I have cut metals in the past with explosives.
Still doesn’t mean it’s what happened, but is well within possibility.
Posted by: Archetypex | Aug 24 2023 16:32 utc | 32
Re: “Turkey and Russia show an astonishing degree of mutually beneficial choices for countries that supposedly are not allowed”
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Aug 24 2023 15:40 utc | 24
I think Putin & Erdogan understand one another from a “remnant” of former glory days. Meaning, when you crawl behind all the “actions” over the last 20-30 years Erdogan has taken, including now with Crimea, you see an Erdogan that interferes where populations of dispersed “Ottoman Empire” citizens went, and a desire to protect them or get land for them or have “special provisions “. Some say that he wants a “reconstituted Ottoman Empire”, well he may dream about that, but there is a deep seated “bond”, even if it’s only in his head, that provokes him to constantly “interfere”, even against US & Russia, as well as obvious whatever financial and national gain he can get (or lose)
He understands Putin that way as well. Neither of them are ready to “abandon” their heritage in full. In addition, for both of them, it’s their National Interest first. But I still say, it’s the Turkish military leadership that makes final calls on foreign relations, and they’ve made it clear, they’re not going to heed the dog whistle call to war with Russia.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 16:36 utc | 33
rather obvious fact, and the fact that Surovikin almost certainly
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 16:25 utc | 30
LoL “rather obvious fact”, “almost certainly”
Oxymorons are moronic, and you use them bevause you know if you stayed with absolute certainty of your opinions on the matter, you’d get crucified.
So, please, just state your opinions as so, and stop the ridiculous persuasive rhetoric tricks. Its exhausting to read such nonsense.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 16:36 utc | 34
President Putin has released a statement on the crash expressing his condolences to the victims and their families and acknowledging Prigozhin’s (and Wagner) contributions to the SMO while mentioning his complex character.
Neutral/respectful in tone.
Posted by: the pessimist | Aug 24 2023 16:41 utc | 35
President Putin has made a statement regarding the demise of Prigozhin:
https://twitter.com/SonjaEnde/status/1694748715016155385
Posted by: Akash | Aug 24 2023 16:46 utc | 36
Julian MacFarlane considers it quite likely that a fuel/air explosion occurred in one or more of the wing tanks… This cause is congruent with wings sheared off, empennage damaged but attached, fuselage undamaged to the point the engines still work, and multiple explosions… INDY
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Aug 24 2023 16:49 utc | 37
The sad truth is that the Ukraine will be completely financially, economically, socially and population wise devastated by the end of this conflict.
Their citizens will be suffering for a very long time as the whole country will be sold off and all income from lands/minerals/resources given away to foreign countries/investors/businesses to repay massive debts and trade deals.
I’m hoping that their can be a simple peace solution put forward asap that redefines the current front lines as new borders for each country, and this senseless killing can be bought to a swift end.
Posted by: Doc Bob Gen | Aug 24 2023 16:50 utc | 38
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 16:25 utc | 30
All you say makes sense but it is not the only conclusion one can draw from what we know. Surovikin being incarcerated or not, is independent of the Prighozin/ Putin Maskirovka Theory. Assuming Surovikin is incarcerated doesnt change the odds of the maskirovka theory being true.
Posted by: Wondrous | Aug 24 2023 16:51 utc | 39
Based on Putin’s latest statement (condolences) regarding Prigozhin’s death, I think it is safe to say that he nor his administration were responsible. From what I can glean from browsing social media it appears the latest theory (that seems plausible to me) is that explosives were planted onboard the plane, specifically in the landing gear area, possibly by a former associate (pilot) of Prigozhin:
https://twitter.com/jardacarda72/status/1694751979694616815
Posted by: Akash | Aug 24 2023 16:52 utc | 40
Don’t worry about the economic damage, Russia will pay for it as part of the settlement agreement then Europe will buy their gas again and allow them access to financial markets. Ukraine was an economic basket case prior to this conflict, western help will set their economy right. Once the war is over Ukraine can start to explore the rich oil and gas fields present in the east and sea areas. These are all much better outcomes then letting the horde from the east come in and rape and steal everything.
Ukraine is going to be more than fine once they cut the Russian cancer out.
Posted by: puke lord | Aug 24 2023 16:53 utc | 41
Putting on my proverbial tin-foil hat, my theory is that Artem Stepanov was suborned by SBU/CIA/MI6 to carry out the sabotage. But all is just speculation at this point, though as I posted earlier based on Putin’s latest statements I think it is fairly conclusive that there was no official Russian government involvement.
Posted by: Akash | Aug 24 2023 16:55 utc | 42
Posted by: puke lord | Aug 24 2023 16:53 utc | 42
Cool story, bro.
I like the part where the Ghost of Kiev becomes the new president of Ukraine.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 16:56 utc | 43
Brilliant comment by Due West, especially this part:
“This does not by the way depict Putin as a tyrant, gangster or dictator – it demonstrates the ability of a man who has some very large and dangerous dogs on a leash, dogs who will never run for election, and need to be reminded from time to time who is in charge. Any gangster-ish elements are remainders of and the best way to deal with American interference in Russia.”
It was simply inevitable that two commercial pilots & and an air stewardess became deceased in the process, but the vast majority of the Russian people understand and indeed approve, because Fuhrer law is the highest form of law in any great civilization.
Posted by: Ludov | Aug 24 2023 16:58 utc | 44
As stated yesterday, the “stories” are getting thicker and thicker, combined with Hollywood videos, doctored photos, twitter’s spams, MSM splashes day & night at an hysterical rise of “Ukraine victories” This very blog will see incessant “ah-ha’s” trying to reinforce trashy, even stated “unverified” articles.
For me, I’ll picked up the phone (again) tell my Congressman (again) , I don’t want the $400 million more you’re voting on now to go to pay Ukrainians pensions, salaries & coke for Zelensky this month. Since that’s just a monthly cost contribution.
These “stories” are so badly written & executed, maybe even the ghost writers have given up & passed the job onto a well funded fantasy book club in Latvia.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 17:01 utc | 45
“…I’m hoping that their can be a simple peace solution put forward asap that redefines the current front lines as new borders for each country, and this senseless killing can be bought to a swift end.”
Doc Bob Gen@39
If the people overthrow their illegitimate government they will be in an impeccable moral position to repudiate debts incurred by the post coup government, and particularly any attributable to the war that they have waged on behalf of imperialism and NATO.
Nor, in the emerging world order, should this prevent them from borrowing the enormous sums that will be needed to repair the infrastructure sacrificed to the Bandera cult and its Anglo American sponsors.
If the US government seriously believes that Ukrainians will starve themselves and their descendants, ‘unto the third generation’, to repay it for allowing themselves to be used and their hundreds of thousands of soldiers to be killed in the service of the fag end of empire, they are mistaken.
Posted by: bevin | Aug 24 2023 17:03 utc | 46
Cool story, bro.
I like the part where the Ghost of Kiev becomes the new president of Ukraine.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 16:56 utc | 44
Nervous, huh? Y’all know deep down that is the likeliest outcome. Putin screwed Russia up for decades, if not centuries.
Posted by: Tracée | Aug 24 2023 17:06 utc | 47
Posted by: puke lord | Aug 24 2023 16:53 utc | 42
You have me puking. You know the part about you saying westerners will help Ukraine’s economy and they will find oil and gas? So what have the western helpers been doing there since 1991 then? Child-prostitutes and drinking binges ?
Posted by: Wondrous | Aug 24 2023 17:08 utc | 48
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 16:31 utc | 32
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 16:36 utc | 35
By all means dispute the argument but not accepted facts such as Surovikin’s long absence and widely reported house arrest, which I referred to as seclusion simply to present a softer image.
Why would I state with absolute certainty what is only a belief based on my interpretation of events?
Surovikin is being held in a kind of limbo because he had foreknowledge of Prigozhin’s rebellion. You must be the only person with an interest in the matter who doesn’t know and accept this as the likely truth given the logic of the underlying events and the available reports.
Lukashenko outright stated that Prigozhin’s ultimate demand was that Shoigu and Gerasimov be “handed over” to him.
You must have followed the same reports as I if you claim to know my argument is false.
Or are you simply being dishonest because Surovikin’s house arrest, thus implied foreknowledge, and Lukashenko’s widely reported remarks, leave you little room for your own fairytale account of internal MoD workings?
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 17:10 utc | 49
On the Prigozhin affair: There were supposedly ten people on board and eight bodies have ben recovered so far according to Sputnik but none yet identified. Simplicius reports that the plane slowed measurably then accelerated prior to the explosion. Bodies are somewhat easy to come by nowadays. To safely parachute from such a plane would mean the air speed would need to drop; it could then be programmed to resume via autopilot. It appears certain an internal explosion destroyed the plane as it was too high for a manpad or for a cell phone triggered bomb, and there appears to be no evidence of an AD missile; so, the device had to be set via timer. Of course, body ID in this case would confirm or deny such a hypothesis–unless Prigozhin or others aren’t found.
Simplicius explores all possible hypotheses except the detail of the one I provided above. The man is a clever river-rat and not above feigning his demise at the expense of others. When his body is identified, then I’ll believe his death.
Tracée | Aug 24 2023 17:06 utc | 48–
The fleas are becoming more absurd daily as the Outlaw US Empire slides deeper into the sewer it’s created for itself.
Apparently, SputnikGlobe links are now causing comments to be denied as my Prigozhin hypotheses just vanished into the mists. The gist, I’ll believe he’s dead when his body’s identified.
You must have followed the same reports as I if you claim to know my argument is false.
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 17:10 utc | 50
I don’t claim to know your argument is false.
I claim reading people use all types of rhetorical tricks to make their opinion seem like fact is annoying troll bait.
You keep saying things are essentially “almost factual”, hoisting up your troll bait hoping for a bite.
“Accepted facts”, NO. “Widely reported”, no,
“You must be the only person”, no, bad troll, “likely truth”, LoL
And of course, the old end the post with some inflammatory question, to get the ol’ flame war going… Nope.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 17:28 utc | 53
Cool story, bro.
I like the part where the Ghost of Kiev becomes the new president of Ukraine.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 16:56 utc | 44
Nervous, huh? Y’all know deep down that is the likeliest outcome. Putin screwed Russia up for decades, if not centuries.
Posted by: Tracée | Aug 24 2023 17:06 utc | 48
Yes, I am nervous about the Ghost of Kiev becoming the next president of Ukraine, although I realize it is, as you say, the most likely outcome.
Also, only an AI bot trawling MSM for its facts could possibly conclude the Ghost of Kiev becoming the next president of Ukraine is the most likely outcome, but since AI bots like yourself are orders of magnitude more intelligent thane, I accept your neural network calculated analysis as truth.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 17:34 utc | 54
@ the pessimist | Aug 24 2023 16:41 utc | 36
thanks for your posts too.. i find them informative and helpful..
Posted by: james | Aug 24 2023 17:35 utc | 55
The gist, I’ll believe he’s dead when his body’s identified.
Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 24 2023 17:22 utc | 52
I wont believe he is dead unless he doesnt make an appearance in the next three months, regardless of what Russian officials say.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 17:37 utc | 56
The discussion on Prigozhin seems to ignore events in Belarus prior to takeoff.
Was his presence visually recorded near the plane at anytime. Security cameras are everywhere and one would think around VIP areas especially.
Is this a mutually agreed to false flag? Nothing I’ve seen is convincing it isn’t. Just sad words. What about final determination will be based on independent dna evidence. If there is such a thing as independent analysis these days.
Weak soup so far.
Does anyone one know which side of the plane the wing fell off?
Posted by: Jerr | Aug 24 2023 17:38 utc | 57
Simplicius wrote a lengthy piece, pointing out that the Russian military was in need of reorganization and that it has been a lengthy and well executed plan. The hint is that the Russians did it.
His style of writing about Russia reminds me of Mary McCarthy and her fellow travelers eons ago. Anyone else have that reaction?
Blinken’s Crimea comments make no sense. Who or what is the audience he is trying to reach?
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Aug 24 2023 17:40 utc | 58
Nervous, huh?
Tracee, are you trying to convince us, or yourself? You and your ilk suspiciously come across as the sort of know nothings, raised on a diet of spectacularly biased media, desperate to confirm their deluded worldview is valid.
The nervous shuffling by your central bankers should give you an inkling. How’s them UK food prices? How are the US dollar debt servicing costs looking for 2024 for Maerica? How are the Ukrainian proxy armies doing? How’s the Great Counteroffensive? What’s the trust in politicans and media in the West trending generally? Etc. Ad naseaum.
This juvenile mouthbreather denial of the facts repeatedly punching you and the rest of the Nazi Ukraine supporters in the face isn’t going to make reality less real.
The fact Germanys economy is now ruined and beholden to Maerican interests is without question. This is what vassals exist for, to be sacrifcied as one does a pawn in chess.
I wonder how Maericans really feel about paying to keep the government of Ukraine running, paying for all the pensions etc, while their own people increasingly huddle in Bidenville tent cities?
The most likely outcome is US dollar collapse following a general Ukrainian state failure. You’re welcome.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Aug 24 2023 17:41 utc | 59
The US Empire just lost Saudi oil and military/weapons market, the cornerstone of US mideast post war strategy. US is losing AFRIC-COM as a result of Niger coup.
Colossal strategic setbacks. Orchestrated in part by Putin
That’s why P was the target of an explosion.
Posted by: bill wolfe | Aug 24 2023 17:42 utc | 60
well…Germany promised another 50 billion to keep ukraine going…..more fool them.. they want something back apart from EU democracy extending?
Posted by: Jo | Aug 24 2023 17:44 utc | 61
Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 24 2023 17:19 utc | 51
“The fleas are becoming more absurd daily”
Calling your ‘adversaries’ fleas is of course directly from nazi propaganda. But I don’t think any difference between them and the current russian regime is even feigned.
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Aug 24 2023 17:53 utc | 62
“…I don’t think…”
Shut up dickhead. Nobody cares what you think.
Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 24 2023 17:56 utc | 63
AFU is preparing for a decisive blow: the accumulation of enemy equipment near Orekhov
“To the north of Orekhovo, we observe a cluster of enemy equipment. At least fifty units. The enemy is concentrating forces for a decisive blow. He needs to go to Verbovoye, then to Tokmak.
We hold on. Zaporozhye front. The 58th Army of Russia,” D. Rogozin, head of the Tsarskie Wolves group of military advisers, reports.
@Slavyangrad
Meanwhile, seems like active defense and planned withdrawal to the second line of defense. AFU is throwing rest of their stuff, soon against the second line of defense.
During that period of time Russian troops have shown an incredible defensive capacity despite the numerical inferiority on this axis, as it was foreseeable that the population would be taken back by the Ukrainians relatively easily. However, once Ukrainian forces entered the town, it was only a matter of days before the Russians eventually withdrew. Indeed, the arrival of new reinforcements from the 7th Airborne Division allowed some positions to be regained by replacing the exhausted Russian troops, but the aim was only to allow a comfortable retreat to the southern defences and the town of Novoprokopivka/Новопрокопівка where further fighting was to take place.
Consequently, the southern part of the locality remains a grey area subject to shelling, but one thing is certain, there are no more Russian soldiers in the locality.
The recapture of Robotyne is a morale boost for Ukrainian troops who will most likely take advantage of it to try to breach the ever-closer first line of the main Russian defence, which will happen in the 3rd phase of the counter-offensive that is beginning and in which a larger number of troops will be involved. A significant victory is necessary if the Ukrainian Army is to continue to receive foreign aid. However, the Russian Army has been preparing its defences since the end of last year and has already demonstrated that Russian troops will put up stubborn resistance to every square kilometre in contention.
Posted by: unimperator | Aug 24 2023 18:09 utc | 64
I was watching my daily Hitler speech today, and serendipity! It just happened to be his famous ” Schuld daran ist der Barfloh” speech. He totally let loose on barfleas and, in particular NAFO trolls. What a prescient leader he was. He said they would make terrible soap, because they are so full of shit, so we should consider sending them to the lamp shade factories instead.
Schuld daran ist der Barfloh
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 18:12 utc | 65
Most know of the exploits of the crew of the tank known as Alyosha. They were feted at the Kremlin today with awards presented by Putin. This link is to the official series of photos taken at the event. Do note the crew’s multiethnicity.
The presentation was initially done at the celebration of the 80th anniversary of the Kursk Battle. This photo at the ceremony I found very striking. Here’s some of what Putin said to the heroes:
Today, awards will be presented to the most distinguished servicemen of the 127th Motorized Rifle Division of the Fifth Combined Arms Army. Gold stars of the Hero of Russia were awarded to Lieutenant Alexander Sergeevich Levakov and corporals Philip Alexandrovich Evseev and Alexei Mikhailovich Neustroev. This well-coordinated tank crew entered the battle with the superior forces of the enemy and committed, it would seem, the impossible, – he performed a feat: not only won the battle, But he also saved his comrades, whose tank was knocked out.
The title of Hero of Russia was also awarded to the senior lieutenant Rasim Rashidovich Baksikov. In the course of intense battles, he acted courageously, showed personal courage and heroism.
The medal “For Courage” will be awarded to Corporal Ilya Vadimovich Gavrilov. Competently using the drone, he detected the enemy and accurately corrected the fire of our artillery, its effective Interaction with the crew of the tank helped to complete complex combat missions.
Dear comrades, I turn now to our Servicemen. Thank you for your service, proud of you!
And of course, once again I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart all citizens of Russia with the 80th anniversary of the victory in the Battle of Kursk, on the Kursk Bulge!
Membrum Virile | Aug 24 2023 17:53 utc | 62
You know very well why Karl calls them fleas, among bar flies. Your last sentence is, happily, unintelligible.
You are wilting.
Posted by: bevin | Aug 24 2023 18:16 utc | 67
What’s the latest on Putin’s August visit to Turkiye?
On. Off.on.off?
Off on off ?
Posted by: Melaleuca | Aug 24 2023 14:12 utc | 3
Off, or so I hope. Erdogan can’t be trusted except to be untrustworthy, and there’s one former Russian ambassador to Turkey who could testify as to the quality of Turkish security . . . if he hadn’t been assassinated there.
Posted by: malenkov | Aug 24 2023 18:25 utc | 68
@Figleaf23 #24
For now, Turkey is classically doing the middle power move of playing everyone off each other to gain the most concessions from all of them, Turkey has no permanent enemies and it has no permanent enemies.. What’s remarkable is merely how openly they do it. They’re like Mac in It’s Always Sunny but unlike Mac they will always have a geographic leverage over everyone.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9EYt_f12wo
Posted by: Altai | Aug 24 2023 18:30 utc | 69
Calling your ‘adversaries’ fleas is of course directly from nazi propaganda. But I don’t think any difference between them and the current russian regime is even feigned.
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Aug 24 2023 17:53 utc | 62
——————————————————————
You must be new to these parts.
karlof1 in days gone by explained his notion of ‘fleas’ and their role in some detail. Perhaps you can research this and correct your statement?
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Aug 24 2023 18:36 utc | 70
According to the russian news outlet Readovka.news,
“the Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan and Russian President Vladimir Putin are scheduled to meet in Sochi. The expected date was called the fourth of September. This was reported in the media.
The location and exact time will be agreed upon, as well as reported in the diplomatic channel. Now is not the best time for Russia and the head of state must be in the country, so it is difficult to schedule all visits, ” added presidential press Secretary DmitryPeskov”
Posted by: On the roof | Aug 24 2023 18:38 utc | 71
Vlad the Impaler strikes again!
The Prigozhin bombing is a psyop, a psychological operation to influence the minds of Westerners and Russians. It is one more in a long string of similar operations, from the murders of Anna Politkovskaya, and Boris Nemtsov, to the sarin and chlorine attacks in Ghouta and Douma, to MH17, to the poisoning of the Skripals and Navalny and so on. All the operations were likely lead and executed by the same Western intelligence services. They all serve the same purpose, to demonize Russia and Putin, to portray Putin as a modern-day Vlad the Impaler.
I wrote this last night in yesterday’s thread. I still stand 100% behind it.
Who killed Prigozhin?
Videos show that the Embraer Legacy 600 jet carrying the Wagner leadership lost a wing before falling to earth from 28,000 feet. The only two reasons this could have happened are because of a missile or because of a bomb onboard, most likely hidden in the wheel well in the wing. NAFO and the Western media will now accuse Putin and Russia of murdering Prigozhin and shooting down the plane.
Spetsnaℤ 007 🇷🇺 on Twitter asks "Who killed Prigozhin?" Right now the votes are:
- The Kremlin 🐻 48.7%
- The CIA 🦅 32.9%
- Ukrainian sleeper cell??🤔 12.1%
- The French 🥖 6.3%
I have already made up my mind, as has most of the Western world. No amount of investigation will change these made-up minds.
The people who downed the Wagner jet are the very same people who downed MH17. Both crimes were made for exactly the same reason – to lay blame on Putin and Russia.
Alexander Mercouris comes to similar conclusions on the latest Duran video
I made the bomb in wheel well assumption based on a short video of the jet falling from the sky. It now seems to be confirmed as the most plausible explanation. This is the latest from Twitter.
Prigozhin’s plane underwent an obscure repair before the trip, the stewardess described. Then she died? Raspopová wrote to her family that the flight with Prigozhin, where she was the only flight attendant, was apparently delayed. The reason was supposed to be a repair on the plane just before take-off. They were waiting for a flight for some repairs and maintenance, nothing special. Then they were ready to go. Nothing went wrong,” the British newspaper The Sun quoted one of the flight attendant’s relatives, who was supposed to communicate with the woman before the flight. The flight attendant was said to have said the repair work was “incomprehensible”. Among other things, she revealed that “the plane was taken away”. She did not specify where. A Telegram account called Shot reported that crash investigators were working on a variant of the bomb on board. At the same time, Prigozhin’s personal pilot Artěm Stěpanov is said to be among the suspected perpetrators, the Telegram channel adds. “According to preliminary data, there was an explosion in the landing gear, right in the air. This caused the wing to break off, which destabilized the aircraft and it immediately began to descend and spin very violently,” the telegram account states. This information cannot be independently confirmed. Indeed, the flight logs state that Prigozhin’s plane veered sharply off course and fell more than two kilometers in less than 30 seconds. It stopped at one height for only a few seconds, apparently when the pilot tried to save the situation, but as we all know, he did not.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Aug 24 2023 18:38 utc | 72
At the time of the Prig “coup” I posted here and elsewhere that it looked likely to me that Prig had been co-opted by western agencies and was in fact really trying to launch a coup. My reasoning then was (a) the timing (just after the start of the great counter-offensive); and (b) his statements about traitors in the high command, shortages of weapons and ammo, and undisclosed and huge Russian losses – all western media talking points with no basis in fact (as I see things). I noted at the time that if my interpretation was correct then Prig was a dead man walking. So it seems.
A lot of people seem to find it difficult to process that Putin is not a saint. Not me. Whether or not he gave direct orders or simply some sort of broad guideline, a very clear message has been sent.
I am open to the opinion that this was a Uke/MI6 or CIA set up. But I doubt the truth will be known on that. Who benefits? Putin and the Russian state.
As for innocent people being killed, well I am sorry about that. But seriously, would any of the bar flies actually risk getting into a private plane with this guy and his inner circle? There is some Darwinian process at work here. Apologies for the brutal nature of my thinking.
Posted by: marcjf | Aug 24 2023 18:38 utc | 73
I agree with @DueWest. Putin solved the insurrection problem without tearing the nation apart. Message sent to other aspiri g mutineers. Russian unity higher than ever. Prighozin and Wagner leaders honored as heroes in death for their accomplishments. Reminds me of Peeky Blinders when he had to kill an old friend who screwed up. He still loved him, even though he had to kill him.
Posted by: Rhinoskerous | Aug 24 2023 18:38 utc | 74
And of course, once again I congratulate you from the bottom of my heart all citizens of Russia with the 80th anniversary of the victory in the Battle of Kursk, on the Kursk Bulge!
Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 24 2023 18:14 utc | 66
————————————————–
I will never forget this article by Big Serge on the Battle of Kursk. It is a hoot and contradicts our popular stereotypes.
https://bigserge.substack.com/p/red-army-rising-kursk-and-beyond
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Aug 24 2023 18:39 utc | 75
Not that it matters, but for shits and giggles:
a) Prigo is known to wear many disguises and have multiple passports.
b) RF high brass put their foot down: we are not working with Prigo and Utkin any more.
c) they are in touch with successors waiting in the wings
d) those successors waylaid Prigo et alia in the hangar before take-off and gave them an offer they couldn’t refuse with laid-on exit, the works – and a shiny medal from the Kremlin
e) remote-controlled plane took off then crashed by on-board ordinance designed to incinerate entire fuselage length after landing making identification impossible – the old 1945 bunker cremation trick
f) Wagner continues under new leadership.
The kerfuffle has been about chain of command between national military and the mercenary arm favored by the President (easier to manage). But the SMO demands a less autonomous mercenary division.
Bottom line certainty: whether Prigo really died or not, he & Utkin will no longer be running Wagner.
Either Wagner is disbanded or new leadership will emerge with new working relationship with now more dynamic national military.
I gather Tel Aviv has some of the best plastic surgeons in the world; maybe P & U are already in a nice penthouse suite next to Epstein – who is now a girl?
Re: “Blinken’s Crimea comments make no sense. Who or what is the audience he is trying to reach?”
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Aug 24 2023 17:40 utc | 58
I’m guessing 2 reasons we had to listen to his ramblings:
1) the “Third Summit of Crimean Platform” meeting was yesterday, so guess he was expressing their “collective” stance that the yo-yo’s from various Baltic nations meet with US and NATO to share in their Black Sea daydream illusions gather, guessing that “audience”
2) Acknowledges “Ukraine Independence Day” as they are now a colony of the US… so sure… Happy Independence Day Ukraine… rah rah and all that.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 18:43 utc | 77
@UWDude | Aug 24 2023 18:12 utc | 65
(…)
Schuld daran ist der Barfloh
(…)
Made my day!
Reminds me of this video.
Posted by: dustbunny | Aug 24 2023 18:54 utc | 78
”
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 15:48 utc | 25 ”
” UN: Nuclear Power: ZNPP (crickets) ” Are Russia and China not on the UNSC ?
” UN: Chemical : Russians have verified accounts of chemical usage on battlefield: (crickets) ” Are Russia and China not on the UNSC ?
” UN: Human Rights (crickets) ” Are Russia and China not on the UNSC ?
” UN: WTO infringement (crickets) ” Are Russia and China not on the UNSC ?
Posted by: Shocked | Aug 24 2023 19:22 utc | 80
Posted by: Tracée | Aug 24 2023 17:06 utc | 48
############
I don’t see Russia being abandoned on the world stage by the Global South, mutilating its young men, or creating trillions of dollars out of thin air to weaken an obese society that has little interest in serving in the country’s military.
All Putin has done is improve the economy, raise standards of living, increase wealth, and create the premier ground military in the world.
Only a subject of mass mental illness in the West could consider him a failure.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Aug 24 2023 19:26 utc | 81
“Amazing” quote about the “russian” pointless obsession:
https://thehill.com/opinion/national-security/4017476-bakhmut-and-the-ukrainian-path-to-victory/
“Putin’s obsession with Bakhmut bears some semblance to the 1998 American romantic comedy There’s Something About Mary. Much like the obsession that movie’s male characters had for Cameron Diaz, Putin, his Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu, Gerasimov, Prigozhin, and Kadyrov share a similar obsession with Bakhmut.
They have been willing to send tens of thousands of soldiers and mercenaries to their deaths to capture a city of little strategic value. Putin and his disciples simply cannot escape the lure of pride and ego.”
The old rule holds!
Posted by: Blissex | Aug 24 2023 19:28 utc | 82
@72 your conclusion on bomb placed under guise of repair makes a lot of sense. Adding in on your Duran reference, Merc’s analysis is extensive and interesting, as he comes up with a load of suspects in various categories but Putin is dismissed (tho possible) as not a murderer of innocent people usually.
A search of MSM puts blame on the kremlin 100 percent
https://odysee.com/@theduran:e/prigozhin-plane-crash,-domestic-and:f
Posted by: botete | Aug 24 2023 19:31 utc | 83
On the Prigozhin event, Lavrov was asked this prior to the main news conference at Johannesburg:
Question: Today it was striking how the Western media came out almost identically with their assessment of yesterday’s events about the plane crash. We saw a journalist who was clearly paid by the Western media run up to you. What does this synchronicity of the actions of our colleagues indicate?
Sergey Lavrov: I have not followed what has been written, said and shown on this subject. From here, it is difficult for me to give any comments. An investigation was immediately launched, a case was opened. Investigators are working.
I would suggest focusing on facts, and not on what the Western media say.
Excellent advice–focus on the facts, not what BigLie Media says.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 17:28 utc | 53
You possess neither the rank nor privileges of a political officer here, you should vet your own composition for rhetorical gimmicks if you intend to make a point out of it.
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 19:37 utc | 85
Aleksandr Borodai, the Russian State Duma’s People’s Deputy from the United Russia Party and the head of the “Union of [Military] Volunteers of Donbass,” reports on the re-integration of the PMC “Wagner” troops into the Russian Army:
Soldiers of the PMC “Wagner” have already started to sign contracts with the Russian Armed Forces en masse after reports about the death of Yevgeny Prigozhin, said Alexander Borodai, a member of the State Duma from the United Russia Party. The Wagnerites are “en masse” going to the “Volunteer Corps” units or signing up for contract service, the people’s deputy said.
Viktor Sobolev, a CPRF member of the State Duma, confirms in a conversation with BRIEF that applications from Wagnerites are now coming from many Russian regions. In his opinion, the Wagner PMC fighters “will be very useful to the army at the front” now, because the “counter-offensive” of the AFU is still not completely stopped. “I see no grounds to refuse someone on the basis of their experience in “Wagner.” Well, only if we are not talking about some criminal and marginal elements,” the people’s deputy said.
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/60185
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Aug 24 2023 19:37 utc | 86
They have been willing to send tens of thousands of soldiers and mercenaries to their deaths to capture a city of little strategic value. Putin and his disciples simply cannot escape the lure of pride and ego.”
Posted by: Blissex | Aug 24 2023 19:28 utc | 82
——————————————————
Please, Sir, refresh our collective memory. I thought that this was a Pri (now deceased, maybe) op, not part of Putin’s ‘throw all the bodies at it you can’ strategy. The Russian strategy to this day is not to throw a massive line of bodies at anything.
The Hill have any comprehension of the Russian strategic and tactical approach? How about you, Sir Blissex?
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Aug 24 2023 19:39 utc | 87
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 14:08 utc | 2
«I’ve been wondering, at what point on a legal level, will it move to a “Declaration of War “?»
A declaration of war is by itself the ultimate war crime, according to current UN law war is illegal and those who declare it are war criminals (I think that there is an exception for military operations initiated by the UN Security Council).
The only legal use of military force is not to declare war, but to defend against an attack, either to the same state or to an allied state, and that does not require a declaration of war.
That’s one reason why the USA etc. no longer declare wars, but only “police operations”.
Regardless, even for a defensive war, because of old language copied and pasted in many many financial contracts, a *formal* declaration of war might have profound legal effects that nobody wants to risk triggering.
Posted by: Blissex | Aug 24 2023 19:40 utc | 88
… you should vet your own composition for rhetorical gimmicks if you intend to make a point out of it.
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 19:37 utc | 85
I do. Note i don’t claim “people who believe such and such are..”, nor do I claim facts are obvious when they aren’t, nor do I end my every post with a “how often do you beat your wife?” type gotcha question.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 19:41 utc | 89
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 16:36 utc | 34
I am not sure why everyone expects Erdogan to be blindly loyal to Russia. Russian led insurgencies are a primary cause of the destruction of the Ottoman Empire. International Relations are a complex matter and can’t be viewed in a myopia.
Posted by: Turk 152 | Aug 24 2023 19:45 utc | 90
Posted by: Wondrous | Aug 24 2023 15:05 utc | 11
«Amalgamation vs Annexation ? Of Donbas etc»
The technical term in english is “accession”:
https://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/how-new-member-states-join-the-eu-all-you-need-to-know/
“Accession is the process by which new countries join the EU. Member states recently reached agreement on opening accession negotiations with North Macedonia and Albania.”
«The Donbas ,and Lugansk were always Russian ,part of Novorussia going back to the late 1700s. Crimea the same era.»
They were mongol for much longer than that, and byzantine for much longer than that. But that does not matter much in the modern world, what matters is whether the residents (not those of Kiev or Lvov or Moscow either) choose and the state they want to join agrees, as as Vladimir Putin said very pointedly.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26681653
«Because Mr Meshkov was the first – and so far only – president of Crimea. He was elected in 1994, by a landslide, on a platform of reuniting the Ukrainian peninsula with Russia. Like an eager suitor, he hopped on a plane to Moscow… only to find his overtures to Boris Yeltsin rebuffed. The Russian president was far too concerned with building a relationship with the West to stir up the kind of trouble that annexing Crimea would have brought.»
https://www.rt.com/russia/549962-peninsulas-complex-fate-how-crimea/
«In 1994, Crimea, which had status as an Autonomous Republic within Ukraine, elected a president who supported reunification with Russia, as did most of the members of the republic’s parliament. In response, Ukraine’s leadership unilaterally abolished the Crimean Constitution, the ‘Act on State Sovereignty of Crimea’, and the post of Crimean president, while banning all the parties that had made up the majority in the Crimean parliament. Against the will of the population, Crimea became Ukrainian.»
“vae victis” (woe to the vanquished).
Posted by: Blissex | Aug 24 2023 19:49 utc | 91
I am not sure why everyone expects Erdogan to be blindly loyal to Russia. Russian led insurgencies are a primary cause of the destruction of the Ottoman Empire. International Relations are a complex matter and can’t be viewed in a myopia.
Posted by: Turk 152 | Aug 24 2023 19:45 utc | 91
What do you mean “everyone”? Most here expect Erdogan to be loyal to Turkey, and to always play USA and Russia off each other to het maximum gain from both sides.
Can you even find a quote anywhere here where anyone says Turkey should show loyalty to Russia, much less “blind” loyalty?
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 19:50 utc | 92
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 14:02 utc | 1
Someone on the thread was keeping account . Only thing I meant to ask her/him was if he knew what Ukraine started with.
Anyways, here’s the latest.
Does a count even matter at this point though?
Given that there will be a continuous stream of equipment from NATO and non NATO countries into Ukraine a count might not be very meaningful over a medium term interval like 2 – 4 years.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 24 2023 19:50 utc | 93
Posted by: Blissex | Aug 24 2023 19:40 utc | 89
«Regardless, even for a defensive war, because of old language copied and pasted in many many financial contracts, a *formal* declaration of war might have profound legal effects that nobody wants to risk triggering.»
Oops I wrote this poorly: what a state attacked by another state can do legally in contemporary international law is not to declare *war* against an attacker, but a *state of war* internally. It is the Posted by: Blissex | Aug 24 2023 19:40 utc | 89
«Regardless, even for a defensive war, because of old language copied and pasted in many many financial contracts, a *formal* declaration of war might have profound legal effects that nobody wants to risk triggering.»
Oops I wrote this poorly: what a country attacked by another country can do legally in contemporary international law is not to declare *war* against the attacker, but a *state of war* internally. It is the declaration of the state of war that can have huge legal effects and not just inside that country.
Posted by: Blissex | Aug 24 2023 19:55 utc | 94
Posted by: unimperator | Aug 24 2023 18:09 utc | 64
The Ukrainians are only now beginning to reach the first defensive line, not the second. The screen in front did such a good job at repelling, delaying and deflecting the Ukrainian assaults it became a de-facto defence line. As I’d said in a previous post the screen was infantry light but heavy in support weapons and authorised to request fire support from indirect fire assets up to army level. It also would have had included a senior commander there on the spot or in direct contact, to call for rapid counter-attacks, as doctrinally demanded.
The Ukrainians have a number of problems before they even reach the first defence line.
1. They have to capture the fortifications on the high ground, south of Robotyne, to increase their bridgehead, and reduce Russian observation of the area, but these are in a better tactical position. Attacking their right flank avoids some of the defences but is an obvious move so the route will be pre-registered and a fire-point.
2. They will have to accumulate forces and therefore will be vulnerable to fire strikes from any number of platforms and systems.
3. Robotyne was only taken by committing substantial numbers of X Corps their strategic reserve, so they will be attacking with units at less than full strength and already tired.
4. Supporting artillery will increasingly expose itself as it has to relocate to stay in range of the frontline, don’t forget this front has had very little movement for extended periods.
5. There is very little in reserve to hold open the flanks of any corridor leading to the first defence line, leaving it vulnerable to being flanked and pocketed.
6. Russian forces are becoming ever more experienced, whilst for the Ukrainians it will be the reverse situation, especially with engineer units tasked with obstacle belt removal.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 24 2023 20:00 utc | 95
All you say makes sense … Assuming Surovikin is incarcerated doesnt change the odds of the maskirovka theory being true.
Posted by: Wondrous | Aug 24 2023 16:51 utc | 40
Well, it’s very generous of you to say so. I’ve overstated my thesis, in fact, but it might help anyone who bumps into the same material later to have a different view of what’s been reported so far and what might turn up in the future,
On Surovikin, I never considered it likely that he was exposed as a plotter by a clever Putin / Prigozhin ploy because Priggers and Surovikin were said to be on good terms and the first appearance I know of Surovikin during the rebellion was a video message from him calling for Wagner to stop the action.
Granted it could still be taken as you suggest.
Posted by: anon2020 | Aug 24 2023 20:05 utc | 96
There re information about the first suspect. Allegedly, he is Prigozhin’s personal pilot, a certain Artem Stepanov. At the moment he cannot be contacted, he is wanted.
Military Informant
Wagnerians saying that this artem plot has placed an explosive in the wings
Posted by: SlowSoft | Aug 24 2023 20:18 utc | 97
Posted by: puke lord | Aug 24 2023 16:53 utc | 42
Ukraine was an economic basket case prior to this conflict, western help will set their economy right.
Ukraine had 3 decades of Western ‘help’ and look where it got them.
What’s different that matters this time?
10% for the big guy?
Once the war is over Ukraine can start to explore the rich oil and gas fields present in the east and sea areas.
They had 30 years to do this with the help of their Western pals.
What went wrong?
These are all much better outcomes then letting the horde from the east come in and rape and steal everything.
You mean the horde from the West. Old Uncle Biden and his spawn?
Ukraine is going to be more than fine once they cut the Russian cancer out.
The ‘cancer’ is Victoria Nuland and her tribe.
Regretfully,the Ukraine is a cemetery with an army – and soon just a cemetery.
Their dead will be paying back Uncle Sam’s lend-lease for centuries to come …
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 24 2023 20:19 utc | 98
Anybody who can read between the lines and listened to Putin’s comments on Prigozhin’s death should have no problem knowing who was responsible for it. Prighozhin my have been Putin’s long time friend, but he crossed the line and he paid the price. No more complicated than that.
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Aug 24 2023 20:20 utc | 99
@Petri 72
your point
lost a wing before falling to earth from 28,000 feet. The only two reasons this could have happened are because of a missile or because of a bomb onboard
may not be correct.
Once a plane enters unspecified flight path, e.g. fast descent at a steep angle, wings start to flatter and may break. Compare the crash of a 737 in China last year, where a part of the wing was found at a distance of 12 km from impact, without any suspicion of explosives. Technical malfunction and failure of limiters could cause such results as well.
Posted by: BG13 | Aug 24 2023 20:21 utc | 100