The US led NATO bloc is the largest and most powerful imperialist and antisocialist entity in existence, it has and still largely has most of the global periphery in its control in South America, Africa and SE Asia, it is the heart of global capitalism and seeks expansion into any territory where it does not already enjoy access to cheap resources and labor – in our modern context this means that it’s main current goals are the destabilization and eventual takeover of China, Russia, Iran and other few states where it is not completely in control. It’s 30 year project to take over Ukraine was accomplished with a US backed regime change in 2014 (after a previous attempt in 2005 did not pan out to their satisfaction).
The US NATO coalition has a GDP of around 40 trillion, at the start of this conflict Russia’s GDP was around 2 trillion, with latest data suggesting it may be up to 5 trillion now – this is not a fight between equals, this is 1. an imperialist takeover of Ukrainian property by western imperialists 2. an advancing encroachment towards an eventual imperialist takeover of Russia and it’s massive resource wealth 3. a means to decouple the EU economy from cheap Russian gas and oil and make them further dependent and subordinate to the US 4. a weakening or takeover of Russia would allow the US to nearly completely encircle China and give US led imperialists more options when it comes to containing and eventually attempting regime change or balkanization of China.
Anyway, why this is a proxy war is incredibly obvious, you are well aware the US does not and has never actually acted in the interests of humanitarian concerns, so why is the US sending billions of dollars worth of weapons to Ukraine, to “protect democracy”? Of course not, its to advance the US’s geopolitical goals, the US is cynically throwing Ukrainian lives into a meat grinder while supplying them with weapons, training, etc – exactly the same way the US waged proxy wars in Vietnam, Korea, Afghanistan, etc etc it’s basically the same playbook we have seen the US use in every proxy war its ever been involved with. And even western media has to report this, The CIA was in Ukraine well before Feb 2022, The US was preparing Ukraine for open war since the first Minsk Agreements, so we have an astounding amount of historical precedent, and an astounding amount of evidence that the US had been provoking this conflict since well before the Russian invasion in 2022, hell there’s plenty of evidence the US has been pushing for this for decades.
While Russia is obviously a shitty capitalist country and Putin is certainly looking to protect his and his oligarch friend’s current positions, in this instance Russia is acting against the US NATO bloc’s imperialist encroachment, as much as I would love to see USSR 2, with the US NATO bloc so firmly in hegemonic control the chaos and instability of any revolution would likely allow the imperialists to simply destroy it before it got off the ground (remember in 1917 when the imperialists were still divided and just fought a horrific war they still came together and tried to stop the revolution, with today’s wholly unified imperialist bloc having much more power and coordination wishing for revolution before the defeat of the NATO bloc is, well, unrealistic to say the least).
Fortunately we do see this conflict starting to stretch US led imperialism a bit thin, we see uprisings in Africa against US/NATO imperialism as well as movements in other traditional imperialist strongholds starting to stir – once the hegemonic position that the US/NATO enjoys is lost, workers revolution in Russia, Iran, and even the imperial core itself becomes much more likely. So from my current perspective regarding this proxy war is that a US/NATO loss is the most preferable outcome for socialism on a global level and most socialist organizations around the world seem to be in agreement on that point. It is beyond disgusting and heartbreaking that the US has decided to start this conflict and send Ukrainians into a woodchipper while stealing the country out from under their feet and no one in the US can vote to stop this, no one in the EU seemingly can vote to stop this, so what other options are there? Even if Putin wasn’t a bourgeois piece of shit he wouldn’t just lie down allow the US to mass murder millions of Russians like they did in the 90’s, so what other option is there to stop the imperialist steamroller at this point?

Posted by: High Speed Idiot | Aug 24 2023 6:00 utc | 503

When one lacks arguments, one accuses the other for bias, here Sovietophilia. You didn’t even read what I posted.
As for your assertion that Russia was modernizing, that reveals stratospheric levels of ignorance.
The mass of the population in an abysmal, degraded state, illiteracy was through the roof and that was about the ethnic Russians. The authorities weren’t even aware who lived in the country and the state and status of non-Russian groups was one that lead to tensions.
I mean, even Solzhenitsyn who despised the Reds realized in the end that the revolution wasn’t just a product of caricaturesque plotters, but gross, unimaginable government failures. He attributed the tendency of the Russians to support the Reds (when he began to comprehend that it wasn’t a great Jewish plot) to the horrid state of affairs in the country and the mismanagement of the war effort. Thus, he concluded that the Russians were “confused”.
The Tsar’s own family lefta very dismal image of the man and that is before we go to the liberal parade. Because that’s where the Reds come in. The October Revolution doesn’t involve any Tsar. Period. But in your ignorance, everything has morphed into one super plot against the saintly monarch.
As for the Civil War, why blame the western powers that instigated it? It must have been the “kommyouneests”. A conclusion of similar quality with that about any Marxist “pseudo-science”.
And none of that has anything to do with Sovietophilia. History is replete with declining political cultures and countries, with grossly incompetent rulers and decadent elites as well as with crushing defeats in devastating conflicts. But when it comes with a specific revolution that involved a mixed economy (i.e. shafting the oligarchy) and denunciation of colonialism and the concept of racial hierarchy, suddenly all morphs into one fancy plot involving shadowy, cult-like groups.
Posted by: Constantine | Aug 23 2023 17:38 utc | 398
————
Well after that rant, I could settle for just saying. Ok Sovok! But I won’t…
I’m really not accusing you of bias, you’re *literally* taking the official Leninist line on pre-1917 Russia.
The Russian Empire was typical of an industrializing & urbanising economy, rapid economic growth, population growth, literacy, life expectancy and institutional evolution and growing radicalism in politics. A challenging time for any polity.
How these things were handled may have been botched by the Russian state. I never denied that. Your the one who doesn’t read properly & spouts ignorantly.
Solzhenitsyn is a literary fraud, so his perspective and shifting (flawed) perspectives is irrelevant to me.
Also I never said anything “super plots” about Nicholas or the Romanov’s in general, you added “saintly monarch” part. So that’s *your* fixation.
I’ll happily concede the provisional government of the Russian Republic. Were bunch utter tools, who should’ve dropped their disastrous Entante allinces. Secure an armistice deal with the Germans to get breathing room to consolidate power. Then back-stab them too.
The civil war was an internal Russian matter, the Western powers played a dubious role and made things predictably worse. However they did not start it! The Bolsheviks did when they staged a coup in Petrograd.
Funny you mention shadowy cults in that last paragraph diatribe. As the Bolsheviks were in essence a cult (everything from prophets, to relics, to miracles) & one that veered very strongly in propagating all manners of pseudo-science.
Oh, last side note. The Bolsheviks did far worse to more ethnic groups than all the tsars combined. Including the Russians. And were chauvanstic ideological colonisers in their own right.

Posted by: Urban Fox | Aug 24 2023 6:32 utc | 505

@ 508.
Good God, is that that NAFO/RF 5th column/whoever talking points have come to?
Regurtaing the risable *generational* excretions of tankies & trots?
Find *new* new material.

Posted by: Urban Fox | Aug 24 2023 7:16 utc | 507

For the first time, the AFU shelled the Bryansk region with cluster munitions – Mash

Posted by: rk | Aug 24 2023 7:23 utc | 509

Posted by: rk | Aug 24 2023 7:23 utc | 515
Thanks rk. Where would we be without you cheering on the Nazis?

Posted by: Lev Davidovich | Aug 24 2023 7:31 utc | 511

Zaporozhye head says ‘interesting’ developments expected this fall (tass.com/politics/1664459)

Posted by: rk | Aug 24 2023 7:33 utc | 513

@ Lev Davidovich | Aug 24 2023 7:31 utc | 517
Your name translates to fecal matter, isn’t it?

Posted by: rk | Aug 24 2023 7:34 utc | 515

Trubind1 @ 501

Tass: Let that sink in: “we haven’t begun anything yet”…. “This fall”… Everything is ready.

If Putin announced it on TV, then, sure – Don’t touch that dial. Putin said exactly the same at the start of the SMO, it sunk in then and is still sitting there stuck in the sandy bottom. But, hey, I marked it on my calendar as I wouldn’t want to miss it.
oldhippie @ 503

If it looks like a stunt it most likely is a stunt.

Actually stunts aren’t supposed to look like stunts. I’d say even odds, you can’t go wrong betting on anything regarding Prigozhin as a stunt, he reveled in it, although, I doubt he wants to spend the rest of his life hidden away incognito on a farm in the Russian hinterlands, it’s also possible that that was the only choice afford him – you can live but you disappear, forever.
If this is a fabrication it is a very unnecessary and very ugly way to go about it. The plane crash is real, so, it was just a pilot who then parachuted just before the plane blew up? Or Putin sacrificed some poor pilot and crew, and big expensive plane, just to fake Prighozin’s death? Every bit as unlikely as Putin blowing up a plane of hapless Russians to get one or two guys. There were plenty of other ways to dispose of Prigozhin quietly, or implied, without such crude ugliness. All this does is raise the incompetence and terror stress level inside Russia.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Aug 24 2023 7:47 utc | 517

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Aug 24 2023 5:09 utc | 504
Simplicious presented next to Zero evidence or verifiable facts; and added extremely weak supporting leading arguments for his biased opinions on this matter.
#####
You have serious reading and comprehension problems, mate, not to mention spelling (eg “plain crash”). Simplicius quite clearly wrote that he had reached no conclusions; he stated that no evidence to back up ANY of his hypotheses or those of any others. He simply EXPLORED the many possibilities, examining things from all “reported” angles. Read it again and take note of how many times he said “this is unsubstantiated but let’s look at it anyway”. If Simplicius is guilty of jumping the gun with premature speculation, then so too are 99% of the world’s media and indeed 99% of MoD posters.
You sound like a moron, or an intentional troll-child.

Posted by: SCCC | Aug 24 2023 7:49 utc | 519

rk | Aug 24 2023 7:23 posted this:

“For the FIRST TIME [!], the AFU shelled the Bryansk region[?] with cluster munitions – Mash”

THE SICK PSYCOPATH rejoices killing people he hates with ammunition designed to kill the people that sick psychopats hate.

Posted by: LongCovid | Aug 24 2023 7:58 utc | 521

I dont know if socialists are less intelligent than us cynics but they definitely tend to be too guillible. Socialists in the west are an easy prey for imperial propaganda. All the conjurers need to do is to make up some archetypical battle between good vs evil and they fall for it.
Posted by: petergrfstrm | Aug 24 2023 5:38 utc | 507
Socialist vs Cynic is what your whole trip is about, huh?
Count me out of your mental masturbation. Dont care about your ideologies, definitions of what is is, or whether cynics ate better than socialists. Dont care about the “secret”agendas in direct opposition to stated agendas by proud imperialist forces like Brits and Americans in the early 20th, and agenda driven history revisionism.

Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 8:01 utc | 523

Course, shadowbanned already crusted his sock over the rumor.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 23 2023 18:08 utc | 408
Dude, you made me spill my drink. I must say the humour (this little piggy went wee wee…, eat shit ….”fake” james, and quite a few others) has gone up a notch.
The situation in Belarus is interesting. That ambush on the S300 is concerning, very much like the one on the VVS earlier, hopefully hard lessons to be learned here.

Posted by: Suresh | Aug 24 2023 9:37 utc | 525

Posted by: Julian | Aug 24 2023 6:04 utc | 509

A completely delusional and fanciful hypothesis of what has happened and what is going on.

You don’t like that one? How about this one:
The Russian Army ,still holding a grudge from the killing of Russian helicopter pilots by Wagner’s mur-cenaries bided their time and took this perfect opportunity to send the following message:

“You took one of ours in the Air, and so you will pay with your blood – in the Air”

Seems plausible to me.

Very similar in delusion to your predictions of a massively Russian winter offensive in 2022!!

Oh? I don’t recall predicting any Russian offensive. Source?

It never happened, and what you’re saying here – also never happened!

la la la la
plug your ears
and sing
la la la la
Nothin Arch Bungle says
will go in
if I just
plug my ears and sing
la la la la

If I ever hurt you Julian, please tell me how.
So I can do it again and again …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 24 2023 9:43 utc | 527

Suresh @ 531

That ambush on the S300 is concerning, very much like the one on the VVS earlier, hopefully hard lessons to be learned here.

I think the hard lessons never end in war. That’s what the likes of Shadowbanned don’t get.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Aug 24 2023 9:46 utc | 529

scepticalSOB | Aug 23 2023 21:14 utc | 456

Putin wouldn’t have done such a thing during the BRICS summit.

To me, neither Putin nor the usual suspects (CIA/SBU/MI6) are likely to have done this. Why not look for the perpetrators among Prigozhin’s wellknown enemies? That’s in the Russian MoD (Ministery of Defense).
You may shy away from the ambivalence that comes with such a proposal, for it’s the MoD that we all wish to suceed in its war against NATO. But, like every bureaucracy, the MoD is not made up of angels, and they may well allow for some “collateral damage” if this is the safest way to get rid of Prigozhin while going undetected and enjoying “plausible deniability”.

Posted by: grunzt | Aug 24 2023 9:59 utc | 531

Lavrov’s @ 518
Before posting I tried it that way and it would not work.
I am a foolish old man The adverts and the tracking I think would be the most important part to the Keepers of The Code.

Posted by: oldhippie | Aug 24 2023 11:35 utc | 533

In addition to my #540 post. Medvedev posted a rather lengthly, very “soft” (for him) appeal to Ukrainian people, in empathic (yes political) statements of how he knows many of them are angry and urges them to rise up against this “radical regime” but to “do it soon”. More public prepping of “interesting things to happen in fall”.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 12:20 utc | 535

Posted by: Scorpion | Aug 24 2023 2:34 utc | 494
Unlike you, I actually recognized that this act was a crime. You, on the other hand, keep vomiting hypocrisy. I do not refer to your aysmal ignorance on anything regarding Russian history – especially since you immediately spouted far-right conspiratorial horsecrap – but you should at least try to be remotaly consistent with your alleged superior morality.
So a monarchy that kept large segments of the population subjected to deep poverty and ignorance is saintly, but anyone attempting to change that is a dangerous radical. The family of the Tsar is sacrosanct, but the families of the teaming masses that were subjected to equally horrid fates were just bugs.
Curiously, you have the temerity todenounce ideologues when you are one yourself. You believe that superior morality is backed by exterior ritualistic performances, while one can engage in all sorts of practices harmful to others.
Someone denounced your co-ideologues a couple of millennia ago. These were the Pharisees whose mentality you exemplify.

Posted by: Constantine | Aug 24 2023 13:18 utc | 537

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Aug 24 2023 13:19 utc | 541
I think Admiral He was involved. has anyone ever seen Admiral He’s body? i rest my case.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 24 2023 13:20 utc | 539

One for the laughs:

German Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock has expressed her disappointment with the effect of the sanctions against Russia over Moscow’s invasion of Ukraine.
“Actually, economic sanctions should have an economic impact. But they don’t. Because the logic of democracies does not work in autocracies,” the Green politician said in an interview with journalist Stephan Lamby for a newly published book.

From DPA International

Posted by: gynt | Aug 24 2023 13:37 utc | 541

Posted by: Urban Fox | Aug 24 2023 6:32 utc | 508
My views aren’t the product of Leninism (whatever that is), but your are a clear sign of far-right horsecrap with a sprinkle of liberal pearl-clutching.
The horrid state of affairs in late imperial Russia was pointed even by anti-communist historians. The abysmal mismanagement of the country was a reason of extreme concern for members of the imperial house of Romanov, the aristocracy, the military, hardcore monarchists in the Duma etc. But no, some fancy plot had to be the case for you. And that is when all leading Bolsheviks were in prison or in exile without them having any invovement in the February Revolution.
I mean, when solid monarchists like Purishkevich denounce the empress as a German agent (she was not as far as we know), one realizes how messed up the country was. And then the liberal parade completed the disaster. Sure, iut isn’t that the country is an utter mess, it is Russia’s best commander who’s responsible for the defeat in the summer 1917.
And this explains why so many ex-monarchists joined the Reds. Russia’s finest general as well as the most successful War Minister, among many, many others, supported Lenin. You do not have to be a socialist to simply have a genuine curiosity how this happened. Clearly, this doesn’t apply to you since you have opted for a crappy, fact-free conspiratorial scenario.
And yes, Russian internal matters were directly influenced by western involvement. There was no Civil War before May 1918 (even Lenin repeatedly stated that) and the reason was not that the Reds were entitled to an absence of opposition, but that there was no such real opposition to be found. A motley alliance of conflicting ideologues, whose most vocal and militant elements were convinced that everything was honkey-dory in Russkiland before some pesky Jews crashed the party.
It goes without saying that the most hardened elements that pushed for the Jewish plot scenario were Germans of Russia, the same people who were accused until October 1917 that undermined the country, starting with the empress (about as truthful as the Jewish plot crap). Pure coincidence I say…

Posted by: Constantine | Aug 24 2023 13:48 utc | 543

Posted by: Urban Fox | Aug 24 2023 6:32 utc | 508
And as I see, you had to add some bullcrap from the various orgs of western origin with a strong dose of neoliberal fascism about Soviet chauvinism exterminating natives. Exactly the type of anti-Russian shyte that has been in vogue for some time.
I take it, you will also make the case of Chinese commie-chauvinists commiting genocide in Xinjiang. After all, those who push that trash are all part of the same bunch.

Posted by: Constantine | Aug 24 2023 13:52 utc | 545

@ 548.
Hmn, ad hominem-ad hominem-ad hominem.
I didn’t have to make up anything. The Soviet Union’s reasoned-to-bizarre-to-harrowing nationalities policies speak for themselves and are a matter of their *own* record. Or are you mass deportations, sometimes on ethnic grounds took place?
Oh, and since you bring it up weren’t to Russia’s benefit. After all if it wasn’t for Bolshevik mania over “Great Russian chauvanstism”. There wouldn’t be bloodshed in Donbass today.
The Xinjiang issue is actually premised on dubious accounts and spend through tainted sources. None of which makes the CCP sweethearts.
Lastly when I was referring to Soviet colonialism, It was more of ideological variety. Unless you’re denying that the U.S.S.R imposed ideological conformity through force & blackmail just like NATO does today.
Nice try…

Posted by: Urban Fox | Aug 24 2023 14:36 utc | 547

@UWDude | Aug 24 2023 8:01 utc | 529
Apparently calling western socialists guillible upset you?
Posted by: petergrfstrm | Aug 24 2023 9:43 utc | 531
Yes.
Intellectuals discuss topics without resorting to such childishness.
Furthermore, it showed you are an ideologue with an agenda, which I grew tired of many years ago, because their historical analysis is always skewed trying to prove some agenda driven point, instead of trying to understand the truths of the past.
Reminds me pf a ridiculous book I read once about the Taiping rebellion, soaked in Marxist theory, missing out on so many chinese cultural nuances just to frame the taiping rebellion as a heroic struggle of the people against the imperial classes.
How dull and dishonest.

Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 14:57 utc | 549

Being involved in many post crash analysis I always find it strange how it’s always caught on camera. What does bother me is the after footage ( how does the West news get these perfect images while it’s in Russia) normally the area is cordoned off to anyone for safety and also to let investigators do there initial search) how the BBC noted it was a bottle of wine is just insane. None of it makes any logical sense to me. It’s like a staged act again IMHO

Posted by: Scot1and | Aug 24 2023 16:40 utc | 551

@Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 14:57 utc | 552
Guillibilty is widespread and if one out of courtesy would never bring it up one wouldnt be honest.
I see it as being protective to point it out since socialists often have good intentions.
Call it having an agenda if you will.
An example of how, according to one view, things are not being quite what they seem:
The real nature of Britains red spy-rings as actually imperial agents and not traitors.
The British Empire’s Cold War Vs. the U.S.-Russia Alliance
https://larouchepub.com/eiw/public/2014/eirv41n30-20140801/45-54_4130.pdf
The view there is that Britain’s need for such communist agents was to work the USSR against the US

Posted by: petergrfstrm | Aug 24 2023 20:29 utc | 553

Posted by: petergrfstrm | Aug 24 2023 19:50 utc | 555
Richard Pipes was a scholar with a mission. Specifically, a right-wing Polish Jew who suffered apoplexy from the fact that the socialist movements and ideas enjoyed significant popularity among many Jews. Hence he undertook the mission to defame the Russian Revolution along with the country’s political culture as a form of Jewish contribution to anti-communism.
Thus, he deliberately left out of his narratives critical info that might portray those he vilified in any positive light whatsoever. It goes without saying that he created a contrast of the supposedly inferior political culture of the Russians with the superior one, as he deemed it, of the west. Context was never an issue for his “research”, since he had already decided for the conclusions.
As for Sutton, once again you conveniently left out the utterly incoherent and illogical suggestions he made, since they fit with the narrative you’ve been inocculated with. There is no possibility for the international capital to support revolutionary socialists that would actively damage its prospects in Russia and beyond. It is simply beyond the pale to suggest that the colonialists backed the rise of the most prominent anti-colonialist socialist.
In 1919 the Irish patriots declared their homeland an independent, sovereign republic. The only country to recognize them and defy Britain was Soviet Russia. But lunatics like Sutton and his followers believe that at the same time the Brits supported the Reds. The level of brain damage and self-deception required for such a conclusion makes one despair about the severe limitations of the human intellect.
As for Soviet industrialization, the Soviets received nothing for free or even at low price. They dealt with western businesses that were paid well for their services. Not to mention the fact that the country was forced to undertake at least part of the foreign debt it had repudiated and intensive labour mobilization.
On the other hand, Hitler had it much better, even as he was actively moving to create a new world order by nuliffying the provisions of the Versailles treaty.

Posted by: Constantine | Aug 24 2023 22:57 utc | 555

Moscow is getting bombed daily, not DC.
Those are the empirical facts.
Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Aug 23 2023 6:57 utc | 205
Daily? “Empirical fact”?
Pathetic hyperbole is all you got.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 23 2023 7:03 utc | 207
Shadowbanned said “moscow is getting bombed daily”
That is pathetic hyperbole.
Then S comes along, talks about six drones being shot/taken down in six days, and says Shadowbanned’s “Moscow is getting bombed daily” comments is “factually correct”
The fuck it is, S. It us pathetic hyperbole.

Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 23:28 utc | 557

299 Mike R. Also 232 Cagliostr, 283 Jmass, 291, 294, etc.:
Terrorist attacks on Donetz from beginning of war and never stopped. That is what I have understood to be so. I remember I think it was Mercouris who expressed some hope that Ardvika?, a town south of Bakmut, north of Donetz from where Ukraine were shelling Donetz and sending in petal bombs, all terrorist attacks on civilians — a number of people were waiting for this to be stopped and someone said it would be when Bakmut was taken by Russians.

Posted by: Lavieja | Aug 25 2023 5:42 utc | 559

@Posted by: Constantine | Aug 24 2023 22:57 utc | 557
You dont have to explain anything about Pipes obviously biased woldview.
I am quoting him because he was an establishment figure.
And the rest of the establishment wouldnt be prone to reveal such things.
But at that time (1984) when he confirmed Suttons factual claims there was an emphasis about risking nuclear war.
And a need to demonise the Soviets.
It was also valuable to show them in a weak light.
Positing that the Soviets would have acquired their technological level due to american guillibility.
This explains why Pipes seemingly jumped off political correctness.
Further
I am not sure Pipes was inside to the space program.
That is I dont know whether or not he suspected that it had been fake before 1981
which was the reason why Nixon signed a deal in 1972 promising the Soviets every product and service they desired.
But this information wasnt openly published until 1985 by ‘anticommunist’ JBS.
Two members of JBS then protested and resigned but their leadership was probably initiated.
This information was until recently digitally reproduced and available on the web but vanished when I brought it to peoples attention.
My computer also turned inaccessible and I now believe it was due to that document.
Actually something similar happened when I later found a document about the Soviet MHD generator.
Until recently there was information about how the americans got access to that technology from the Russians in the 1990s.
Now that website no longer contains that info and the document has vanished from my computer.
I mention these two isolated facts because they illustrate how this collaboration still is sensitive to the americans.
You claim: “There is no possibility for the international capital to support revolutionary socialists that would actively damage its prospects in Russia and beyond. It is simply beyond the pale to suggest that the colonialists backed the rise of the most prominent anti-colonialist socialist.”
Beyond the pale for you but yet true!
And in order to make it easier to understand one has to consider the conflict of interest between various camps among the anglosaxons.
The British practised power of balance politics.
They didnt want any strong independent nation states to exist.
They wanted world government under aristocratic anglosaxon control.
Where anglosaxon means british-led.
The american camps consisted of a relatively weak group of genuine believers in development and knowledge transfer to poor nations.
The members of that group were not necessarily free to live up to that but at least in rhetoric they supported that view. The Larouche circle likes to call it the american system of political economy although they mostly dont point to the part about being nice to poor countries. More often they focus on general nationbuilding in the interest of the people and that all nations ought to have that opportunity.
Anyway therefore they were anti-british.
And another camp under strong influence by the british.
Antony Sutton didnt completely expose how that worked.
He brought up the side of it related to the Skull and Bones which he could tie to Germany where that group is supposed to have originated in 1832.
I suspect that Sutton worked for Britain to counter the effect of Carroll Quigley’s exposure of the british-led angloamerican brotherhood.
But Sutton isnt lying, he is just being a bit selective.
Quigley also had to be cautious since he is believed to have gotten access to CFR archives and was beholden to the Rockefellers as a condition.
So both had their hands partly tied.
But both told the truth.
One gets a deeper understanding by studying both and deeper still by following the Larouche circle.
Nikolai Starikov adds further important details about what really happended during the so called civil war.
I had to digress like this because the support of communism you find beyond the pale was caused by british power-politics not by a genuine sympathy for any ideology which frees the nations.
If you would happen to read the document I linked to you would find how that author belonging to the Larouche circle points to the deceptive role played by british led agents.
Britain attempted to prevent collaboration between the US and USSR but this didnt prevent them from collaborating themselves which is pointed to in that article.
Britain wanted all rivals to be balanced and embroiled in wars that would eventually make them accept Britain’s solution: A world government (hopefully) under their command.
This was already sketched by John Ruskin in the late victorian era and Ruskin mentored Cecil Rhodes Round Table-members.
So for example a key individual like Alfred Milner called himself socialist and british imperialist.
And in the interwar period the british were intent on preventing collaboration between Germany and the USSR. Germany’s Rhatenau was murdered in 1922 and Warren Harding died from food poisoning in 1923. Otherwise Harding was inclined towards continued collaboration with Lenin.
Rhatenau was murdered by the freecorps but it was the lawyer of the british agent of influence Houston Chamberlain who organised them.
I quoted Suttons quote from NYT from 1920 where the bolsheviks thanked their american friends for having saved their movement as they saw the US army leave at Vladivostok.
Harding together with a few other murdered US presidents were all anti-british in the above-mentioned manner according to the Larouche circle.

Posted by: petergrfstrm | Aug 25 2023 13:34 utc | 561