https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-66551478
OK so it’s happening, where are the F16s going to be based is the big question. It appears we are on another escalation, just completely be used why the west will not back down. I just hope Putin will save the world now I am ashamed to be part of the military and the west.

Posted by: Scot1and | Aug 19 2023 7:44 utc | 303

(I’m sure it’s just a coincidence):
Adolf Heusinger, Hitler’s Chief of Staff, became Chairman of the NATO Military Committee, 1961-1964
Hans Speidel, Rommel’s Chief of Staff, became Commander in Chief of NATO Forces Central Europe, 1957-1963
Johannes Steinhoff, Luftwaffe fighter ace, became Chairman of the NATO Military Committee, 1971-1974
Johan von Kielmansegg, General Staff Officer Wehrmacht High Command, became NATO Commander Allied Forces Central Europe, 1966-1968
Ernst Faber, Lt Col Wehrmacht General Staff, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1973-1975
Karl Schnell, First General Staff Officer 76th Panzer Corps, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1975-1977
Franz-Joseph Schulze, Senior Lieutenant Luftwaffe, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1977-1979
Ferdinand von Senger und Etterlin, Adjutant Wehrmacht High Command, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1979-1983

Posted by: hankster | Aug 19 2023 7:55 utc | 305

Something hit in Kiev

🔥 Black smoke rises in Kiev as explosions rock the Ukrainian capital.

https://t.me/IntelRepublic/26067

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 19 2023 8:35 utc | 307

First of two short replies to comments that caught my attention on. Skimming through the comments again.
@ Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 18 2023 17:51 utc | 232
Wrote :
“https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/08/18/fqxf-a18.html
This site’s line on Ukraine is very, very confused, although getting some basic facts correct: it was provoked by imperialism, the Ukies are led by Nazis and are being used as proxies.
But they condemn Putin as much as they do Biden for the war and they have overestimated the power of US imperialism consistently…”
My dear Ahenobarbus, I take your confusion as genuine , let me point you in the right direction for you to seek the truth for yourself as I have had to, by admitting my errors of judgement and separate the realities of life from the fairytales that we are wont to embrace from childhood.
WSWS in the US, has a lot in common with the faux commie publication ‘ Spiked’ in the U.K.
The WSWS is analogous to the RCP/SPIKED. It does the same in the US. Its leader, Ms Fox of Spiked, ended up in the House of Lords, like all grubby servants of the Deep State do.
Because she coordinated and delivered the Anti EU BrexShit by helping to break the Red wall of WW2.
Along with planning the media strategies that led us to integrity initiative, 77th Brigade and the rest.
For these interested in how this understanding came about, ask , I’ll post it on the next open thread.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Aug 19 2023 8:48 utc | 309

It’s really very simple. The EU exists because the USA wanted it to exist.
Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Aug 19 2023 8:35 utc | 312
I don’t think much of that. Of course the US agreed to its creation, but I doubt it had much agency. They spend their time trying to destroy it now, as become a rival. They’ve succeeded to a fair degree with the Ukraine war, one of whose main objectives is to do the EU down.

Posted by: laguerre | Aug 19 2023 8:56 utc | 311

@laguerre | Aug 19 2023 8:56 utc | 315
The US spends their time trying to destroy European countries, using the EU as one of their tools.

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 19 2023 9:07 utc | 313

Posted by: bevin | Aug 18 2023 17:03 utc | 224

Such ideas were easy enough to entertain in an era of economic growth, relative prosperity and social stability all of which coincided with the era in which the six were transformed into the EEC and later the EU.
Laguerre clearly recalls those days fondly.

The EU was from the get-go primarily an accesory to the USA, see my reply to laguerre #209

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Aug 19 2023 9:23 utc | 315

309 – Heusinger was actually standing next to Hitler when Stauffenburg’s bomb went off on July 20, 1944. Heusinger was slightly wounded. He supposedly knew some kind of plot was going down but did not know Stauffenburg would plant the bomb there and then.

Posted by: Waldorf | Aug 19 2023 9:26 utc | 317

305 – Perhaps I am just arrogant but I feel even amateurish old me could make better assessments, and at a fraction of the cost.

Posted by: Waldorf | Aug 19 2023 9:29 utc | 319

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Aug 18 2023 17:43 utc | 229

As for the EU I see it’s future as more problematic.

EU’s fate is inextricably linked to the USA. The EU will disintegrate into completely separate nations once again a few years after the USA enters into their coming economic debacle due to de-dollarization reaching a critical threshold, leading to USD devaluation, leading to inability to pay for military outposts and essential products imports, leading to USA isolationism for a few decades, while it recovers the strength it has been losing since the 90s.

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Aug 19 2023 9:43 utc | 321

Posted by: laguerre | Aug 19 2023 8:56 utc | 315

I don’t think much of that.

So, on one side we have official declassified American government documents demonstrating that USA agencies started the process of European integration in the 50s and 60s and on the other side we have you not thinking much about it.

They [USA] spend their time trying to destroy it [the EU] now, as become a rival.

From what planet are you posting? Here on Earth the USA and the EU are not rivals, quite the opposite, the EU is USA’s bitch. It was as evident during the Great Recession as it is now.

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Aug 19 2023 10:12 utc | 323

For the record, it took 1 more year to Laguerre than to b to see the real face of the EU.

Posted by: Minaa | Aug 19 2023 10:29 utc | 325

Re Killing Joke,
Yes, Jaz always seems to have a prophetic eye… I don’t know how to tag/respond to a specific post as yet, watching for years, and now posting.

Posted by: Orson Cart | Aug 19 2023 10:47 utc | 327

,,

Posted by: Orson Cart | Aug 19 2023 11:00 utc | 329

@Johan Kaspar
Get your facts straight.

we have official declassified American government documents demonstrating that USA agencies started the process of European integration in the 50s and 60s

Bollocks. The USA saw the European integration as a potential threat to their primacy and so they tried hard to hijack the process, something they were not really able to do until after the ’90s and the disgraceful EU expansion to Eastern Europe (sponsored by USA&UK). The USA, according to your “secret” documents, pushed for the inclusion of the UK into the EEC, because the UK was and is the main American outpost in Western Europe. However everyone knew that, even back then, no need for declassified documents, and that is why general De Gaulle, president of France during the ’60s, succesfully opposed the push to get the UK into the EEC.
So the USA did not start the process of European integration, but tried to steer and hijack it.
The hijacking of the EU by the USA was not effective until the expansion into Eastern Europe (~2000).
The Euro was a major threat to the primacy of the dollar and that is why the USA tried in every conceivable way to wreck it (e.g. the Strauss-Kahn affair).
Brexit was better for the EU than for the UK, because it freed Europe from an American foreign agent, the UK. Now the EU should get rid of Poland &c. to get back on track.
The American plan to destroy the European integration process stands on two legs: a neoliberal push for a greater integration of Europe based on “civil rights”, “diversity” and “inclusion”, a neocon push for a greater disintegration through petty nationalism. Neoliberals and neocons are two sides of the same coin.

leading to USA isolationism for a few decades, while it recovers the strength it has been losing since the 90s

Again this wishful thinking. The USA cannot recover without their military and political influence, that is why they push for it so hard. American industry (well, what is left of it) is finished without the influence of the American politics, without the bullying of the American military, without the spying and sabotaging of the American intelligence. American economy is born out of the military and political primacy they got at the end of WWII, and to that military-political-intelligence complex is bound for life.

Posted by: SG | Aug 19 2023 11:45 utc | 331

Posted by: DunGroanin | Aug 19 2023 8:48 utc | 313
Love wsws

Posted by: Adamski | Aug 19 2023 12:35 utc | 333

john | Aug 19 2023 9:36 utc | 324, who posted a defence of Frank Zappa and finished with the words …notwithstanding the ignorance of some jaded fuckwits around here.
I’m usually impresssed by DunGroaning, but like everyone else he can be correct most of the time but not all of the time. We all bring some baggage to the conversation here.

Posted by: Lantern Dude | Aug 19 2023 13:33 utc | 335

Again this wishful thinking. The USA cannot recover without their military and political influence, that is why they push for it so hard. American industry (well, what is left of it) is finished without the influence of the American politics, without the bullying of the American military, without the spying and sabotaging of the American intelligence. American economy is born out of the military and political primacy they got at the end of WWII, and to that military-political-intelligence complex is bound for life.
Posted by: SG | Aug 19 2023 11:45 utc | 336
The USA created its own industrial working class in the late 19th & early 20th century, and the state regulatory apparatus to go with it, but then it sold it all off for salvage, to use cheap foreign labor instead, and pocket the difference. So that is what they have now, lots of cash, and no industrial working class and a decaying consumer culture.
It will have to grow a new working class and create the associated state structures and economic infrastructure (trains) all over again, if that is what it wants, and that will take a decade or two, at best.
Short term thinkers rule the roost here.

Posted by: Bemildred | Aug 19 2023 14:29 utc | 337

Thank you, Zeke2u, (291) for the compelling summary of US actions in Afghanistan. I have not had any success in explaining it to people, even those who are in possession of Ph.D.’s. They simply don’t accept that it was Carter agreeing to Brezinki’s plan to “Ignite an arc of Islami fire on the Soviet’s southern border” that was responsible for that conflict and its terrible aftermath. When you understand US actions in Afghanistan, you can also understand that what we are seeing in Ukraine is the US operating out of the same evil playbook. The citizenry was as effectively indoctrinated then as it is today. Even when the truth is revealed, it just doesn’t matter. It is incredibly exasperating.

Posted by: David | Aug 19 2023 14:41 utc | 339

Once again, the clobber list is suspicious. A 1000 Ukr. troops killed but no tanks destroyed.
The clock is ticking and they are running out of time if they want a breakthrough. I have to wonder if they just aren’t capable.
On a related topic, there is an experiment in which you take a number of metronomes and run them randomly. If the slightest vibration exists between them, they can end up synchronized, ticking away in unison
And that’s what I wonder about autumn. US consumers could fall off an economic cliff while Ukraine collapses and Dementia Joe slides into impeachment while Trump self destructs. It’s gonna be a bumpy night, I think.

Posted by: Eighthman | Aug 19 2023 14:51 utc | 341

Posted by: unimperator | Aug 19 2023 13:40 utc | 341
I doubt anyone of importance was there, given the risks involved, probably expendable nerdy intel types who have no choice, or volunteer to go to a ‘war zone’ as a checkbox exercise.

Posted by: Milites | Aug 19 2023 15:02 utc | 343

Posted by: Eighthman | Aug 19 2023 14:51 utc | 347
Why is the clobber list suspicious once again?
Surely if Trump were self-destructing then the DOJ would not be having to be ‘highly inventive’ in their arraignments and prepared to destroy the principle of the First Amendment.

Posted by: Milites | Aug 19 2023 15:09 utc | 345

(I’m sure it’s just a coincidence):
Adolf Heusinger, Hitler’s Chief of Staff, became Chairman of the NATO Military Committee, 1961-1964
Hans Speidel, Rommel’s Chief of Staff, became Commander in Chief of NATO Forces Central Europe, 1957-1963
Johannes Steinhoff, Luftwaffe fighter ace, became Chairman of the NATO Military Committee, 1971-1974
Johan von Kielmansegg, General Staff Officer Wehrmacht High Command, became NATO Commander Allied Forces Central Europe, 1966-1968
Ernst Faber, Lt Col Wehrmacht General Staff, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1973-1975
Karl Schnell, First General Staff Officer 76th Panzer Corps, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1975-1977
Franz-Joseph Schulze, Senior Lieutenant Luftwaffe, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1977-1979
Ferdinand von Senger und Etterlin, Adjutant Wehrmacht High Command, became Commander in Chief NATO Forces Central Europe, 1979-1983
Posted by: hankster | Aug 19 2023 7:55 utc | 310
All of whom swore an oath to Adolph Hitler personally.

Posted by: Dogtired | Aug 19 2023 15:27 utc | 347

Surely if Trump were self-destructing then the DOJ would not be having to be ‘highly inventive’ in their arraignments and prepared to destroy the principle of the First Amendment.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 19 2023 15:09 utc | 351
Agreed. For someone who is “controlled” or “one of them,” they sure are going to extraordinary lengths to shut him down.
And it’s not going to work.

Posted by: Dogtired | Aug 19 2023 15:43 utc | 349

reply to 355
Trump got himself into this mess, over and above what the Deep State tried to do. Ramaswamy is coming up fast and is a better choice – especially if Trump is fighting for his life in court while running for President. I will keep saying that the US currently is like coming home and finding Bigfoot relaxing in your easy chair – while your family sees nothing out of the ordinary. It’s all gotten weird and degenerate and Dementia Joe is the other half of it. Have people become infected with some dopey New Age idea that wishes come true if you meditate on them enough?
As for the clobber list being strange, we are told about Ukraine still having hope and reserves, etc. but the reported destruction doesn’t show it. How is this not obvious? And if anyone doesn’t believe Russian figures, that doesn’t matter. In relative terms, the offensive ain’t All That and I wonder why?

Posted by: Eighthman | Aug 19 2023 17:04 utc | 351

Alastair Crooke fmr Brit ambassador called Ukraine the Biggest Criminal Event of the Century.
“Ukraine is probably the biggest criminal event that we have seen in this Century of money laundering of corruption going right up to the top of diversion of weapons and of simple stealing of money and transferring it over abroad…” 16 August 23
https://www.youtube.com/live/EYjte2drRnU?feature=share

Posted by: Toby C | Aug 19 2023 19:16 utc | 353

Posted by: SG | Aug 19 2023 11:45 utc | 337

So the USA did not start the process of European integration, but tried to steer and hijack it.

So that’s your opinion. Declassified documents show that the USA both started the process and has been controlling it since its beginning, including providing funding (i.e. payments) to individual Europeans at the very origin of the process of European integration.

The Euro was a major threat to the primacy of the dollar and that is why the USA tried in every conceivable way to wreck it (e.g. the Strauss-Kahn affair).

Lol! The Strauss-Kahn affair. Scraping the bottom of the barrel, clutching at straws.
In fact, the euro as a currency is a buffer for the USD. Once the USD starts to seriously lose value, the process will be slowed down and delayed by using the euro to support the USD. You need to pay attention to the degree of coordination between the Fed and the ECB.

The American plan to destroy the European integration process stands on two legs: a neoliberal push for a greater integration of Europe based on “civil rights”, “diversity” and “inclusion”, a neocon push for a greater disintegration through petty nationalism.

Meanwhile in the real world, European nationalism is anathema to the USA and to European parties siding most openly with the USA.

The USA cannot recover without their military and political influence, that is why they push for it so hard. American industry (well, what is left of it) is finished without the influence of the American politics, without the bullying of the American military, without the spying and sabotaging of the American intelligence. American economy is born out of the military and political primacy they got at the end of WWII, and to that military-political-intelligence complex is bound for life.

It seems you hate America, thinking of the great nation as a purely militaristic empire, i.e. a cartoon view of America.
America has everyting to be a great and responsible power and to provide for a very large population and middle-class. It has the human and natural resources, very much like Russia.
At the end of the 80s the USA was the largest creditor nation of the world. Unfortunately since the 90s America has been led poorly by a neocon-neolib mix (you’re right when blaming these two factions) and 30 years later America turned into the largest debtor nation of the world, but the potential for recovery, a process that will take decades and possibly some large-scale disturbances, is there in the fundamentals.

Posted by: Johan Kaspar | Aug 20 2023 7:52 utc | 355