Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 04, 2023

Three Polls On Support For The War In Ukraine

There are new polls out which show the changing opinion of U.S. citizens and others about supporting the war in Ukraine.

Newsweek came first, with a very deceiving headline:

U.S. Troops Should be Sent to Ukraine, Third of Americans Say

The text describing the poll does not really support what the headline says:

A total of 31 percent of eligible voters in the U.S. support or strongly support American military forces heading to the battlefields of Ukraine, polling conducted exclusively for Newsweek by Redfield & Wilton Strategies has revealed.

A quarter of respondents neither supported nor opposed the idea of sending U.S. soldiers to Ukraine, with 34 percent against the suggestion. Just under one in ten respondents did not know.

Can anyone tell me why one would put the loosing share of the opinion poll into the headline?

What is surprising, at least to me, is the huge difference of opinions between the young and the older voters:

In the poll, those identified as "Millennial," between 27 and 42 years old, were most likely to "strongly support" committing U.S. troops to Ukraine. However, more respondents aged between 18-26 (Gen Z) said they would support the measure overall, 47 percent saying they supported or strongly supported sending U.S. troops.

Nearly a third of respondents aged over 59 said they opposed pledging U.S. troops to Ukraine, with a further 25 percent "strongly" opposing the suggestion.

The pro-war Gen-Z-lers should be put through a boot camp to be shipped off to Europe. I have no doubt that it would change their opinion in no time.

In contrast to Newsweek the CNN poll pice is correctly headlined:

CNN Poll: Majority of Americans oppose more US aid for Ukraine in war with Russia

Most Americans oppose Congress authorizing additional funding to support Ukraine in its war with Russia, according to a new CNN poll conducted by SSRS, as the public splits over whether the US has already done enough to assist Ukraine.

Overall, 55% say the US Congress should not authorize additional funding to support Ukraine vs. 45% who say Congress should authorize such funding. And 51% say that the US has already done enough to help Ukraine while 48% say it should do more. A poll conducted in the early days of the Russian invasion in late February 2022 found 62% who felt the US should have been doing more.

The CNN poll seem to contradict the one by Newsweek on the most important question:

When asked specifically about types of assistance the US could provide to Ukraine, there is broader support for help with intelligence gathering (63%) and military training (53%) than for providing weapons (43%), alongside very slim backing for US military forces to participate in combat operations (17%).

There is a strong partisan divide about supporting the war:

Within both parties, there are splits by ideology. On providing additional funding, liberal Democrats are far and away the most supportive, 74% back it compared with 51% of moderate or conservative Democrats. Among Republicans, about three-quarters of conservatives oppose new funding (76%) compared with 61% of moderate or liberal Republicans.

Independents mostly say the US has done enough to help Ukraine (56%) and that they oppose additional funding (55%).

The progressives in the U.S., like the Greens in Europe, are now the fringe that is most eager to pursue the war. They are, of course, also those who are the least eager to serve in the military.

It is interesting to compare that with a change in opinion of young Poles, aged 16-34:

There has been a fundamental shift when it comes to the stance that young Poles think their government should adopt in the war in Ukraine. In 2022, an overwhelming majority of 83% argued that the government should support Ukraine – but this number has changed drastically.

Now, 65% of respondents back continuous support for Ukraine, whereas the remaining 34% wish for Poland to stay neutral. Clearly, more than one and a half years into the current phase of the conflict and amid fears of other countries being pulled into the war, young people have become more cautious.

Those numbers are a month old. It is likely that the support has sunk further and will no longer be in a majority by the end of this year.

While no poll can be trusted fully they show in aggregate that the general opinion is moving away from supporting the war.

That gives some hope that any unnecessary prolonging of the war, which some neoconservative circles seem to wish, will be met by a strong opposition.

Posted by b on August 4, 2023 at 15:07 UTC | Permalink

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It is time for Russia to put an end to this war. Since Ukraine refuses to recognize that it is responsible for the war and refuses to surrender, I think it is time for Russia to take a leaf from Harry Truman and simply use nuclear weapons to convince Ukraine it is time to throw in the towel.

Granted, it will casuse some civilian casualties, but overall, one nuzke in downtown Kiev will save countless lives by ending putting an end to the needless slaughter.

Atoms for Peace! Slava Putunu!!!

Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | Aug 4 2023 15:13 utc | 1

I am from Russia, now in Germany. In my opinion Russia should withdraw from Ukraine as this war is being fought for the benefit of the West and China. Already in Russian cities there is a surge in migrant crime due to the demographic effects of this war, and of course the situation will be worse for Ukraine (on a per capita basis if not an absolute basis). It is interesting to see that a lot of pro-Z commenters are very happy to see Russia exterminating its own gene pool both at home and in Ukraine for their bizarre multipolar world order, which in reality means Chinese domination of the world markets and nothing else.

Any other action merely prolongs the suffering.

Peace.

Posted by: Soothsayer | Aug 4 2023 15:16 utc | 2

ANd unlike the USA which persecutes harmless ex-Presidents like Trump, Russia has shown how just and fair it can be by sentencing the traitor Navalny to only 19 yers and not to death as he so well deserves. They should strap him to the nuke they lauch on Kiev.

Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | Aug 4 2023 15:16 utc | 3

The polls mean nothing. The opposition to the war means nothing.

If the Archons of the West want a war they will get their war.

I watched as the biggest protests in world history shook the world.

Still, they went ahead and destroyed Iraq.

The people are sheep.


Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 4 2023 15:16 utc | 4

thanks b... that is fascinating about the change in the polish youth views here... as for the misleading headline from newsweek... maybe their cia handlers helped them with the double speak?? i saw the other day the head of wikipedia stated to greenwald that the cia-fbi have their hands all over wikipedia and have for many years.. confirmation of what many of us have been saying all along.. the news outlets are no different.. all this gets run thru the intel agencies.. maybe it was a newbie on the job, lol..

@ Noam A. Larkey | Aug 4 2023 15:13 utc | 1

i don't agree with your approach here...

Posted by: james | Aug 4 2023 15:20 utc | 5

What is surprising, at least to me, is the huge difference of opinions between the young and the older voters
The young gamers are less able to differentiate between virtual reality and actual reality.

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 4 2023 15:22 utc | 6

@ Soothsayer | Aug 4 2023 15:16 utc | 2

can you tell me how russia can extract itself from this?? it seems to me this was the usa-nato plan all along... i don't see how they can, and i think they are doing the best they can in the circumstances, but i am curious how you can see this differently here..

Posted by: james | Aug 4 2023 15:24 utc | 7

As an American, I can tell you that this season of war porn is way more boring than last season's. The show has really gone downhill and is losing viewership. I'm not surprised young Americans are demanding a big plot twist to really spice up the show or else they will lose interest entirely.

Posted by: Bob | Aug 4 2023 15:28 utc | 8

Since the beginning of the so–called "offensive" by the Kiev regime during June - July, the losses of the armed forces of Ukraine in the course of hostilities have already amounted to more than forty-three thousand servicemen. This indicator does not include wounded and foreign mercenaries evacuated to hospitals in Ukraine and abroad, as well as military personnel eliminated as a result of strikes with high-precision long-range weapons in the rear areas.

More than four thousand nine hundred units of various weapons of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were destroyed on the line of contact, including 26 aircraft, nine helicopters, 1,831 tanks and other armored fighting vehicles, including 25 German Leopard tanks, seven French wheeled AMX tanks and 21 American Bradley infantry fighting vehicles. In addition, the enemy lost 747 field artillery and mortars, including 76 American M777 artillery systems, as well as 84 self-propelled artillery units from Poland, the USA, France and Germany.

🔹 Russian Ministry of Defense

Posted by: Okeale | Aug 4 2023 15:32 utc | 9

@1 Yes needless slaughter to avoid needless slaughter thats the ticket. Fuckin clown world nonsense

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Aug 4 2023 15:42 utc | 10

I smiled when I read the Polish poll. The young Poles don't want to be meat grinders for their lunatic leaders' ego trip. I concur, the American millenials should be sent to Ukraine front-line for two weeks.

Posted by: Steve | Aug 4 2023 15:42 utc | 11

Great job -b- awesome succinct analysis.

I had been reading myself, heck even wondering why polls are taken in the first place. Properly framed, it should have asked: Do you think Americans should go to War with Russia?

Anyways, Poland is NOT as surprise to me. It will drop further even. After a year of Ukraine immigrates going into Poland, touting their “entitlements and superiority”, I’m quite sure the Polish population has had enough. As we know, the farmers have certainly had enough.
Now with the green light from Moscow that they can have Lvov, as long as they don’t enter militarily, but as part of a peace carve out, and they can totally forget any designs on Belarus, we’ll see even more drop off.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 4 2023 15:52 utc | 12

@2,

So what is the actual solution? Extract and then what? What happens to the people of Donbas, Crimea and others? What makes you think that finishing the war in Ukraine terms now will mean final peace?

Posted by: JamesBond | Aug 4 2023 15:53 utc | 13

The only thing offensive in Ukraine is Zenky's non-stop whining and begging for arms and alms.

Posted by: DilNir | Aug 4 2023 15:55 utc | 14

It's real easy to support war when its just an abstract thing that you don't directly suffer the consequences from, I'd wager the war cheerleaders from these polls would have a very different opinion if they were actually at risk of being sent to the front line. Perhaps bringing back the draft would sober these idiots up....

Posted by: 𝛀mega | Aug 4 2023 15:57 utc | 15

Posted by: Okeale | Aug 4 2023 15:32 utc | 10

Likely need to divide those numbers by 10 to get reasonably close to the real losses. Same for the Ukrainian claims.

Did anyone catch General Mikhail Teplinsky’s August 2 speech?

Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 4 2023 15:57 utc | 16

@17,

10 times? But MSN & Oryx already mentioned that Ukraine lost over 30 Bradleys already? Should we divide those as well?

Posted by: JamesBond | Aug 4 2023 15:59 utc | 17

Generation Z? As a popular American bard once said, "This is the end...."

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 4 2023 16:02 utc | 18

They should do a poll of all the conscripted Ukrainians who have fought and are still fighting if they want a relevant opinion poll.
Who gives a shit about the opinion of some obese, purple haired, non binary tattooed 20 year old dip shit from Warsaw or Portland.

Posted by: Eoin Clancy | Aug 4 2023 16:03 utc | 19

Gen Z just needs a few days of actual war and you should see the mood change quite significantly. The poles were quite ready last year for a full war with Russia, but when their current guverment actually tried to implement some limited draft, a lot of people choosed to leave the country.

Posted by: JamesBond | Aug 4 2023 16:04 utc | 20

I find it peculiar how corrupted the supposedly progressives have become over the last few years, as particularly highlighted by CNN poll.

I have been mystified by how whole-hearted and uncritical acceptance of security establishment letter agencies, neoconservative foreign policy, and corporatism has become the sine qua non of being 'progressive'. It's quite creepy really.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Aug 4 2023 16:07 utc | 21

Re: Posted by: Bob | Aug 4 2023 15:28 utc | 9

Yes, even the sequel “Will USA and Russia go to battle in Niger”… is flavorless. Yes, the young in America want a new war video game, and the old are tired of worrying about a blinding flash of light extinguishing all of humanity.

As “polls” are executed… far away in lands beyond our shores, 100,000s of people are dying. Where are the polls about how Americans “feel” about that? Yup. Thought not.
Even the “polls” illuminate the sick and degenerate diseased nature of Americans.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 4 2023 16:09 utc | 22

the poll question should be “are you ready to send have your Air Force and half naval aviation, and two thirds you refuelers to have half blown out of the sky….

to be support to your ground forces being the trip wire to nuclear war across the usa?

usa media is propaganda mill, and any argument with the blob gaslighting is treason

Posted by: paddy | Aug 4 2023 16:12 utc | 23

Posted by: JamesBond | Aug 4 2023 15:59 utc | 18

Nah, sorry, was unclear. Only talking about official government pronouncements. MSN, Oryx and War Spotting numbers are not government pronouncements. The later two's numbers are far less than the government's claim.

General Mikhail Teplinsky’s August 2 speech had a personal number or two.

Otherwise, how is either side still managing to fight? Orams Razor, both sides are exaggerating the others losses in personal.

Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 4 2023 16:15 utc | 24

Commenting on US polls is a useless endeavor. Polls, votes, and all the rest are artificially cooked with Kasher dressing.

Posted by: -- nietzsche1510 -- | Aug 4 2023 16:15 utc | 25

The progressives in the U.S., like the Greens in Europe, are now the fringe that is most eager to pursue the war."

Great update, but I think it's high time to stop referring to Dem oligarchs and their petty bourgeois zombies as "progressives".

That anyone would think a party of billionaires that is pushing nuclear WW3 with Russia and China is progressive is truly a testament to their media dominance and corresponding psyops.

The Dems are one of two right wing pro billionaire, pro war, anti working class, anti democratic rights parties. They are almost totally integrated with the intelligence agencies at this point.

Sure they want more reactionary blacks, women, gays and trans in the political and military elite. That's not progressive in the slightest.

The left/right thing has gotten a little confusing for people lately. I'll boil it down for you: if you push imperialist war, advance the interests of finance capital and eliminate basic rights for working class citizens at every turn, your a hard right wing party. All the blacks, gays and women in the world won't charge that fact. Believe it not blacks, gays and women can be and often are right wing lunatics.

The good news is that these polls show there is a solid and growing base of opposition to the war on Russia in the US. Again, American workers are not all consumerist zombies programmed to follow everything their RC demands, as some confused and sad flies have insisted periodically.

And their opposition has not been fomented by any organized political movement yet. This is just the uncultivated virgin soil. Imagine what could be done by organizing and advancing the political education of this substantial section of workers in the US.

With the total breakdown of the economic and political systems in the US there are opportunities for a mass anti war, anti capitalist movement that have not been seen in generations. Their psyops program pessimism in the population for just this reason.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 4 2023 16:16 utc | 26

I have found it amusing, from time to time, to ask people who support the Keiv regime why they want to force people in the Donbas region to live under the thumb of a government that hates them.

Generally, confused sputtering and vapid attacks on Putin ensue.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Aug 4 2023 16:17 utc | 27

Shameful to see that Russia and pro Russia side is still waiting for what the anglo West does in relation to Ukraine wad as if West has not sufficiently harmed russians already. It shows that Russia is afraid of western interference in the war that West itself has created a x is supporting g to the hilt with added benefit of no troop involvement of own as Ukraine's are willing fighters for anglo cause. Russia really is a coward and stupid according to the ways she presents herself.

Posted by: Sam | Aug 4 2023 16:18 utc | 28

Generation Z? As a popular American bard once said, "This is the end...."

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 4 2023 16:02 utc | 19

Another good one from that bard: "get together....one more time!"

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 4 2023 16:19 utc | 29

@25,

Of course, I was ironic with the Bradley stuff. To be honest, I find that number of destroyed Bradleys given by Russian MOD to be quite low. Even Oryx which is heavily biased toward Ukraine, gives a bigger number. Also some of those other numbers are quite plausible as well -- planes, helicopters and even Leopard tanks (there are lot of video proofs of those). Don't know about the other stuff but I found it funny that you mentioned that you mentioned that we need to divide those losses 10 times to get an actual result. On what exactly are you basing those estimates? Are you an official with access to these details to know for sure that those numbers are inflated that much?
I don't even bother checking the Ukrainian numbers because they don't even mention where those numbers are coming from, just some random numbers printed here and there. Not to mentioned the cases where they mention that Russia losses are 8-9-10 times larger than those of theirs.

Posted by: JamesBond | Aug 4 2023 16:21 utc | 30

It's been a long time since Polls had any validity, or that the people had any say in the matter. Those that rule in the Empire of Lies will do as they please and then tell the population how to feel about it.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Aug 4 2023 16:21 utc | 31

https://youtu.be/3tHPsphg9xc

The Doors, Five to One. Happy Friday to the bar!

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 4 2023 16:23 utc | 32

thx for delivering this piece of old-fashioned reporting.

Remarkable numbers considering the overall warmongering atmospere still spread by the entertainment/News media surrounding us.

As to ending the war, as "b" writes, well Mearsheimer without much hope:

(I posted the link before in the Ukraine thread from yesterday)

https://thegrayzone.com/2023/07/30/john-mearsheimer-ukraine-war-is-a-long-term-danger/

Posted by: AG | Aug 4 2023 16:26 utc | 33

Re: Posted by: Soothsayer | Aug 4 2023 15:16 utc | 2

It is not “being fought for the benefit of the West and China”. It’s being fought for the Ethnic security of the Russian people & to prevent subjugation and balkanization of the Russian Federation.
As a Russian citizen, you know this. You ran to Germany in hopes that your assimilation may prevent you from wearing an EU armband and taken for rehabilitation should these sycophants prevail.
You know this is a serious Ethic EU cleansing, and you want to minimize it to some commerce war where West & China are winners. Germany doesn’t even want your Russian dog-shows and you live there? .. Wake up

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 4 2023 16:31 utc | 34

The GenZ response is baffling, and troubling. I guess the youth don't read, and think war is like a violent video game. b's suggestion of sending them through boot camp would be enough to turn their opinion, I think. Even a week of it.

Posted by: D | Aug 4 2023 16:35 utc | 35

Ahenobarbus @33

They've got the guns but we've got the numbers.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 4 2023 16:36 utc | 36

The proxy war in Ukraine is the easiest of the problems that the Empire, desperately staving off irrelevance, currently faces. Which is why, in my judgement fwiw etc, Russia feels no sense of desperate urgency in Ukraine.

It makes sense for Russia, and China, Iran and those rallying to the banner being raised against Empire, to allow the realities of decline to sink in not just to the USA but, even more critically, to those countries which have handed over the keys of sovereignty to Uncle Sam and settled back for the ride. (Jackson Pollock is at the wheel.)

Item #1 of those realities is the loser's game being played over Taiwan, not to mention Xinkiang. And, according to Bhadrakumar's latest ("Wheel has come full circle in Myanmar") Indo-China too. The CIA has so many fingers in so many pies that it is hard for the State Department to keep up with the latest struggles over "our values" and 'rules based' whatevers. And every one of them requires money, military commitment and all that goes with them.

But the real challenge is not to the State Department which, in a pinch, can call on the Academy in all its international glory to churn out its ideological drivel. But the Pentagon, currently faced with the necessity of keeping forces in reserve in easterm Europe, in case Latvia or Moldova do something very stupid and Ukraine blows up, is also facing enormous demands on its power projection in the South China sea, Australasia, where it has recently lit a fire and, as mentioned above, Burma and Thailand.

The last thing the US needed was an explosion in West Africa where the Kagame clones are falling serially. And it now looks as if the Indiana National Guard (which runs Niger for the Empire!) has more on its hands that it is able to deal with. Where are the reinforcements to come from? Iowa? South Carolina?

And then there is the Middle East, shading into the Mahgreb on the one hand and the Black Sea on the other.

Finally come the BRIC meetings and the long overdue international discussion of the existence of a reserve currency which has become a means not of facilitating commerce and finance but of augmenting the work of the overstrained and not notably competent Pentagon.

Ugly as matters may look in Russia, subject to pinprick drone and rocket attacks clearly designed to provoke the Kremlin to take a bigger military gamble, things are beginning to look untenable in NATO's backyard where living standards are falling.

That ruling class propaganda which the young consume so eagerly stops working when the heat goes off, the food runs out, the rent cannot be paid and living wages are hard to get.

One big difference between Russia, the US and (almost)any NATO state you choose to mention is that in the coming elections Russia is the one place where the ruling party is likely to be re-elected. Biden can't say that, neither can Scholtz or Sunak.

Posted by: bevin | Aug 4 2023 16:40 utc | 37

@William Gruff | Aug 4 2023 16:02 utc | 19

Generation Z? As a popular American bard once said, "This is the end...."
"Did you have a good world when you died? -enough to base a movie on??"

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 4 2023 16:44 utc | 38

Re: Posted by: bevin | Aug 4 2023 16:40 utc | 38

“The CIA has so many fingers in so many pies that it is hard for the State Department to keep up with the latest struggles over "our values" and 'rules based' whatevers. And every one of them requires money, military commitment and all that goes with them.”

😂! Excellent 🍺

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 4 2023 16:54 utc | 39

Polls can be manipulated to get the desired answer

for an example from British TV Comedy Yes Prime minister

If you want support for National Military service

Are you worried about the number of young people without jobs?
Are you worried about the rise in crime among teenagers?
Do you think there is lack of discipline in our comprehensive schools?
Do you think young people welcome some authority and leadership in their lives?
Do you think they’ll respond to a challenge?
Would you be in favour of reintroducing National Service?”

If you want to oppose National Service

re you worried about the danger of war?
Are you worried about the growth of armaments?
Do you think there’s a danger in giving young people guns and teaching them how to kill?
Do you think it’s wrong to force people to take up arms against their will?
Would you oppose the reintroduction of National Service?

more at - https://www.rightattitudes.com/2015/12/01/the-trickery-of-leading-questions/

Posted by: Aslangeo | Aug 4 2023 16:54 utc | 40

I wonder how this pole would have turned out if one of the choices had been “Where is Ukraine.” Even more interesting would be a pole about invading a fictional country.

Posted by: rowboatrob | Aug 4 2023 17:05 utc | 41

The young in America are the most propagandized. I suspect it has something to do with having abandoned any concerned about their own privacy. They “accept terms and conditions” every time they download an app. They routinely put personal data like their birth year or birth date in their social media handles. I’m surprised they don’t post their full Social Security numbers. Their response to the loss of privacy is to conclude that they are best to just trust official narratives. If the CDC says to get a novel vaccine against a disease that poses them zero risk, they do it without thinking. If the NYT or WaPo says something, it’s easiest to just accept it, lest they be like their “conspiracy theorist” dad who won’t even download an app. If they hear “Russia bad” it is automatically like true.

Posted by: Sentient | Aug 4 2023 17:15 utc | 42

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 4 2023 16:16 utc | 27

The left/right thing has gotten a little confusing for people lately. I'll boil it down for you: if you push imperialist war, advance the interests of finance capital and eliminate basic rights for working class citizens at every turn, your a hard right wing party. All the blacks, gays and women in the world won't charge that fact. Believe it not blacks, gays and women can be and often are right wing lunatics.

The good news is that these polls show there is a solid and growing base of opposition to the war on Russia in the US.

But the demographic breakdown of that poll shows that this "base of opposition" comes almost entiredly from hard right wing supporters. The same people that want to advance the interests of financial capital and eliminate basic rights for working class citizens are the ones opposing support of Ukraine, to the point that opposition to supporting Ukraine has become a signature characteristic of the hard right wing.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Aug 4 2023 17:23 utc | 43

Newsweek is owned by an Korean evangelical christian cult. Before that it passed through several owners, one time selling for only $1. It supports every neo-conservative cause. Any poll they do is rigged or constructed out of whole cloth.

Posted by: Gareth | Aug 4 2023 17:23 utc | 44

That Gen-Z is pro war means only that they have forgotten what war is. Probably they will change opinion when they are reminded. This happened in human history in regular intervals.

Posted by: xblob | Aug 4 2023 17:25 utc | 45

The polls are interesting when compared with the Establishment Narrative that's being drummed to death by Team Biden: "Putin's lost the war." If that's so, then why so many in favor to join in what's an already done deal? If Putin's lost, then why do more billions need to be sent to Ukraine? Indeed, if Putin's lost, where's the narrative saying we must spend billions to rebuild Ukraine? In other words, there's a big disconnect between what the Narrative wants to implant versus what the polling reveals. Plus, since the new Narrative was launched three weeks ago by Biden in Helsinki, why did the pollsters not craft their questions properly to promote that Narrative?

As for the age group differences, IMO they're easily explained when looking at polling related to media credibility, with youth being revealed as far more gullible than us oldsters by a factor of greater than two to one.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 4 2023 17:27 utc | 46

For anyone who's interested & doesn't know, our mainstream media has been enthusiastically promoting Biden's proxy war on Russia with the same "big lie" propaganda strategy that Hitler used for mass deception in Germany, hiding the hard work of investigative journalists who recognize the villainy of the warmongers. As B suggests - it definitely looks like Biden is using Trump as a distraction from his ongoing massive crimes against humanity.

The pro-war propaganda polluting our airwaves is apparently at the direction of Biden's Information Warfare Community.
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Information_Warfare_Community

All for the benefit of the military/congressional/industrial complex!

In "Mein Kampf" (1925), Adolf Hitler wrote:

"...in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie... It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously."
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Big_lie

+ + +
“We’ll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false.” William Casey, the director of the CIA in 1981.

Meanwhile unknown to most Americans there are many very intelligent, excellent, American truth seekers/speakers who have been boldly, tirelessly speaking out regularly, some every day, since Russia began their military operation ---- providing facts & countering the massive clouds of lies from the warmongers
including but not limited to the following, all of whom can be easily found on youtube.

Brian Berletic, Tucker Carlson, Stephen Gardner, Jackson Hinkle, Col. Douglas MacGregor, Judge Napolitano, Garland Nixon, Jeffrey Sachs, and others


Brian B https://www.youtube.com/@TheNewAtlas
Judge N https://www.youtube.com/@judgingfreedom
Col. MacGregor https://www.youtube.com/@DouglasMacgregorFanChannel
Judge Napolitano https://www.youtube.com/@judgingfreedom
Garland Nixon https://www.youtube.com/@garlandn
Maj. Scott Ritter https://www.youtube.com/@USTourofDutyPodcasts

Former CIA who have actively protested Biden's lie infested proxy war with RU --- speaking out on Youtube: Larry C. Johnson, Ray McGovern, & Phillip Giraldi... plus Scott Ritter (USMC intel) --- all of them speaking frequently - some 5 or more days per week.

There are many others including Clare Daly & Mick Wallace, Members of the European Parliament since July 2019
Clare D: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/9jhCkIjFnXA
Mick W: https://youtu.be/7wti3Hm4h0g

Alex Christoforou and Alexander Mercouris on the Duran
https://www.youtube.com/@TheDuran


U.S.M.C. Major Scott Ritter's July 2023 expose: "Agent Zelensky parts 1 & 2" - has been removed/banned from youtube:
Demolishes the Big Lies told by Biden & his warmongers
https://rumble.com/search/all?q=%22Agent%20Zelensky%22

Our No. 1 enemy is ignorance. And I believe that is the No. 1 enemy for everyone — it's not understanding what actually is going on in the world... You have to start with the truth. The truth is the only way that we can get anywhere. Because any decision-making that is based upon lies or ignorance can't lead to a good conclusion. Julian Assange

Seems with all the boomers who are retired, that we could keep a better eye on our government & hold their feet to the fire!

Posted by: Toby C | Aug 4 2023 17:31 utc | 47

Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | Aug 4 2023 15:13 utc

I agree completely with your post. Time to end this war by any means necessary. No mercy. No pity. It's being reported that a Russian port and warships were attacked, either destroyed or badly damaged, in the Eastern Black Sea. Enough is enough. Flatten Kiev and all other Western Ukraine cities. Then, see if they still support the war.

Posted by: Cesar Jeopardy | Aug 4 2023 17:33 utc | 48

@ AG | Aug 4 2023 16:26 utc | 34

I think Mearshimer neglects a couple of things in his analysis which makes him too pessimistic about Russia's prospects for a decisive victory.

Firstly, I think from Russia's point of view, what makes for satisfactory victories is less than he posits. A negotiated border on the Dneiper would be regarded as a very satisfactory gain among Russians. Reclaiming the 1922 Soviet-donated territories (Odessa, Mikolaiv, Zaporizia, etc.) would be seen as a massive win.

I also think he is not giving due weight to the likelihood of Ukrainian military collapse (although it is mentioned in passing).

He is also underestimating the self-inflicted economic damage the 'west' is doing to itself. As industry contracts and USD pre-eminence declines the capability and appetite of the 'west' to sustain the foolish policies of hegemony will decline.

Finally, he does not consider the broader geopolitical situation. The 'west' misperceives the extent to which the RoW is fed up to the back teeth with the hypocrisies and constant instigations of the 'rules based order'. Every day that goes by international understandings and institutions grow in the RoW to the exclusion of 'the west'. These developments should be toted up on the side of Russian victory regardless of where the border gets drawn in Ukraine.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Aug 4 2023 17:40 utc | 49

Posted by: Cesar Jeopardy | Aug 4 2023 17:33 utc | 49

I agree completely with your post. Time to end this war by any means necessary. No mercy. No pity. It's being reported that a Russian port and warships were attacked, either destroyed or badly damaged, in the Eastern Black Sea. Enough is enough. Flatten Kiev and all other Western Ukraine cities. Then, see if they still support the war.

Posts like these strongly echo calls by right wingers like Barry Goldwater and George Wallace to use nukes on Vietnam as the war was getting desperate.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Aug 4 2023 17:41 utc | 50

Here's my weekly Ukraine Update which may be useful to some: https://robcampbell.substack.com/p/ukraine-weekly-update-95f

Posted by: Dr. Rob Campbell | Aug 4 2023 17:43 utc | 51

To # 2 - lol I'm in Russia , most Russians want the end - but not the kind you want or troll about.
Newsweenie, CNN, Yahoo, Kiev Pravda, the Voice etc. are all bought CIA/Mossad/Mi6 enterprises. My educated guess is that their trolls are students or unit 8200- their trolls don't know our US slang that well - dead giveaway. Thanks Moon.

Posted by: GMC | Aug 4 2023 17:44 utc | 52

Cesar Jeopardy: Beware of being known by the company you keep. “Noam” has been one of the most reliable pro-404 voices here, and it seems he’s now playing a pro-Russian agent provocateur to discredit the pro-Russians here.

Kinda charming that Inkan didn’t get the memo though 😁

Posted by: malenkov | Aug 4 2023 17:47 utc | 53

Posted by: malenkov | Aug 4 2023 17:47 utc | 54

Beware of being known by the company you keep. “Noam” has been one of the most reliable pro-404 voices here, and it seems he’s now playing a pro-Russian agent provocateur to discredit the pro-Russians here.

Honestly, the reason I replied to Cesar instead of Noam was that Noam's post sounded so outlandish that I considered the possibility that he was some Ukrainian supporter trying to roleplay an SMO supporter to parody the people here on this board. I wondered how many would fall for Noam's nuke talk. Pro-Putin, pro-SMO people get discredited enough already by their increasingly strong tie to right wing neo-fascism as evidenced by the CNN poll.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Aug 4 2023 18:01 utc | 54

GMC | Aug 4 2023 17:44 utc | 53--

Yeah, the troll @2 is merely a troll. Here's what Lavrov said today about the new peace initiatives, "Lavrov's answer to a question from International Affairs magazine about initiatives on the Ukrainian settlement":

Question: As you have repeatedly said, there are now more and more different initiatives for a Ukrainian settlement. At the same time, the proposals emanating from Western countries are aimed exclusively at one-sided promotion of the "Zelensky peace formula" without taking into account the realities "on the ground" and the interests of Russia. What problems arise in this regard from your point of view?

Sergey Lavrov: In connection with the numerous initiatives on the Ukrainian settlement, we reaffirm that we appreciate any efforts to achieve a just and sustainable peace. It is clear that justice cannot be achieved in any conflict unless the rights of national minorities are strictly respected by all. Moreover, there is no alternative for Ukraine, where Russian has always been the native language for the majority of the population. In the West, they put all their efforts on imposing the "Zelensky formula" on the Global South and demand the return of the situation to the borders of 1991, but no one in Washington, nor in London, nor in Paris and Brussels said a word about the attitude towards the repeatedly and loudly declared position of the Kiev regime: "We will take Crimea, Donbass and our other lands" and "we will destroy everything Russian there."

The need to stop these neo-Nazi threats is obvious. However, in the multiplying initiatives "on Ukraine" this topic is silent. And the defeat of Russian-speaking rights continues at full speed. In July of this year, the city administration of Kiev banned the use of the Russian language in the artistic public space (a ban on songs, performances, films and other cultural events). Has anyone scolded the Kyiv regime?

In return, all new invitations to Zelensky on international tours. Why don't the Western impresario ask him to publicly present to the world community another "formula" about how today's Kiev sees the situation of Russians and other national minorities in their country after the "victory", for which NATO and the EU do not spare money and weapons? I am sure that this would help many caring countries in the Global South to better understand what is happening when building their positions. We have seen that they are interested in a comprehensive understanding of the nature of the crisis and the prospects for overcoming it in the course of numerous discussions and negotiations at the second Russia-Africa Summit in St. Petersburg.

The Anglo-Saxons and their allies came to the defense of the Nazis in Kiev, silencing or even justifying their actions that trample on human rights and the rights of national minorities. Instead of a serious conversation based on the recognition of the evolution of realities "on the ground" over the past ten years, staged forums are convened with the sole purpose of luring as many countries as possible into at least some semblance of a discussion of the "Zelensky formula", which requires nothing less than Russia to completely capitulate, agree to infringe on its security and abandon millions of Russians whose ancestors have lived on these lands for centuries, They were equipped by creating cities, roads, ports. Everyone who is courted by the West in order to push through the "Zelensky formula" must be aware that at stake is the fate of these people, whom the Kyiv regime openly promises to destroy. [My Emphasis]

The information being kept from all in such polling is the grand aim of the Zelensky Solution. How many would support it? How many polled really know the truth behind the policy goal? I'd say a very small percentage of those opposed. And just for fun, we should ask how many Americans know their nation saved Nazism from extinction.

Posted by: karlof1 | Aug 4 2023 18:02 utc | 55

We have quite the collection of barfleas it seems.

There are the barfleas that don't know this is a civilization war and, if you are going to change the way things work, you don't beat a bully by using bully means.

Then there are the barfleas that write things like
"A negotiated border on the Dneiper would be regarded as a very satisfactory gain among Russians. Reclaiming the 1922 Soviet-donated territories (Odessa, Mikolaiv, Zaporizia, etc.) would be seen as a massive win."

Its like these folks have not read the Russian goals of the SMO or are paid to support some other reality here.

I think polls in the West are created and the results published when they support the direction of empire. I see empire trying to engender support for the civilization war without showing the reality of the social contract the cannon fodder live under.....this is what is proving harder and harder to gloss over.

The coming inflection point in our civilization war will be shown by a lack of confidence in the fiat money with the "In God We Trust" words on the front.

Posted by: psychohistorian | Aug 4 2023 18:04 utc | 56

Continuous wars for the last generation ought to demonstrate that Forever War is the plan. Right now it is in Ukraine. They are teeing up the next wars: Iran, China, Africa, even Korea.

It will never end with these guys in charge, no matter what happens or does not happen in Ukraine. But no, they do not mean to let Ukraine end yet -- it is generating too many sales.

Posted by: Mark Thomason | Aug 4 2023 18:05 utc | 57

Pepe Escobar in a 3-way dicussion with Hudson / Desai doesn´t believe in a peaceful solution; suggesting a Polish game as part 2 of this madness.

https://geopoliticaleconomy.substack.com/p/nato-ukraine-russia-china-war?utm_source=post-email-title&publication_id=457596&post_id=135675151&isFreemail=false&utm_medium=email

"(...)
Demilitarization of Ukraine is on the way. They did it at least 50% if not more. Demilitarization of NATO is also working because they did it.

Germany, they don't have shells for one week if they decide to go into a war. Their Leopards are gone, not to mention the other ones.

Which leads us to the most dangerous element in all that, which brings us back to our NATO discussion: the Poles, the rabbit hyenas of Europe. The Poles and the Baltics are cultivated by the Americans as their new strike force considering that the Ukrainian strike force is practically gone

And that would assure the war entering another even more complicated stage and with no end in sight. The possibilities of this thing getting worse of course are endless but this one I would say is the number one.

Subcontracting the next offensive to the Poles with help from other NATO mercenaries. Forget about Ukraine, now it's going to be Poland independently, not part of NATO because they're doing this on their own, NATO is not involved.

And then we have a different actor on the Ukrainian battlefield because the Poles, their agenda as all of us know, is to annex Western Ukraine and they think they have a golden opportunity that they never had before in the past few decades to do it.

So I'm sorry if I'm being so nihilistic but
(...)"

A problem in Escobar´s notion is "Demilitarization of NATO". This can be swiftly turned around by changing EU into war economies.

To assume France and Germany cant build weapons, is theoretically of course naive.
70 years ago those countries almost started to build a nuclear arsenal together.

The reason why building huge arms manufacturing facilities in Western Europe did not happen during the Cold War, in contrast to the USSR (tank factories), was simply, serving as war economies would have stood in the way of Western Europe being prettied up as the show-case for Eastern Europe´s public.

If Europe is downgraded in today´s world that role is obselete.

So if a China-provocation might take place, in the long run, Europe could well be changed into a new centre of arms manufacturing like before 1945.

Major issue is how to increase war propaganda regarding the native population.
Right now, in Germany claims to refuse army service have quadrupeld (4x I think it was)

But if you start with propaganda now you have some results in terms of conscription numbers in 10-15 years.

Which would align with the polling numbers cited by "b" as of "Gen Z".

Look at the US. Even after the nightmarish Korean War, there was enough willingness among American men to go to Vietnam.

The Barbie-sation of this war now is an excellent foundation.

Thus the polling results are disconcerting regarding this particular group.

So, everyone go and talk sense into kids in your families and among relatives.

Posted by: AG | Aug 4 2023 18:06 utc | 58

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Aug 4 2023 17:40 utc | 50


Well said. Every single point. Right on.

Posted by: Scorpion | Aug 4 2023 18:12 utc | 59

Pro-Putin, pro-SMO people get discredited enough already by their increasingly strong tie to right wing neo-fascism as evidenced by the CNN poll.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Aug 4 2023 18:01 utc | 55


There, there, my boy…or furby/furry or whatever. Rest assured that the American left is equally devoted to neo-fascism, and not just in the Ukraine.

Posted by: malenkov | Aug 4 2023 18:14 utc | 60

AG
"Poles, the rabbit hyenas of Europe"
That has to be rabid hyenas.

"..The reason why building huge arms manufacturing facilities in Western Europe did not happen during the Cold War, in contrast to the USSR (tank factories), was simply, serving as war economies would have stood in the way of Western Europe being prettied up as the show-case for Eastern Europe´s public..."

No. Western European arms industries were put out of business by the US. It was US insistence on monopolising the NATO arms market that killed off much of Europe (including the UK)'s industry. There is a reason why Europe is using F-16s and it isn't because they are better...

Posted by: bevin | Aug 4 2023 18:16 utc | 61

I am from Russia, now in Germany. In my opinion Russia should withdraw from Ukraine as this war is being fought for the benefit of the West and China. [...]It is interesting to see that a lot of pro-Z commenters are very happy to see Russia exterminating its own gene pool both at home and in Ukraine for their bizarre multipolar world order, which in reality means Chinese domination of the world markets and nothing else.

Posted by: Soothsayer | Aug 4 2023 15:16 utc | 2
-------------------------------------------------------
I can understand why you now live in Germany. Russia did not start this conflict US/EU/NATO did. It started when President Bill Clinton broke a US promise (a commitment) to Mikhail Gorbachev that NATO would not move one inch toward the East if Russia agreed to leave East Germany and allow the two Germanies to unite as one: Poland, Hungary, and the Czech Republic became NATO members in 1999 under Bill Clinton's watch.

In an open letter to US President Bill Clinton, more than forty foreign policy experts including Bill Bradley, Sam Nunn, Gary Hart, Paul Nitze, and Robert McNamara expressed their concerns about NATO expansion as both expensive and unnecessary given the lack of an external threat from Russia at that time.

The US financed and orchestrated Maidan Coup that ousted the legally ELECTED president because he would not follow instructions and demands from the EU and the US assured that a US proxy war would come to Ukraine and Russia.

Now you say you are a "Russian," but you don't know this already? I think you are a liar and a troll. If Russia just pulls out of the conflict, what do you suppose the people of Crimea and the Donbass (all who voted for unification with Russia, because they are mostly of Russian decent)? Where is your concern for the Russian gene pool now, Mr. Soothsayer?

Posted by: Ed | Aug 4 2023 18:18 utc | 62

How dumb would they have to be to be of draft age but actually support the war.

Posted by: fortyRed | Aug 4 2023 18:25 utc | 63

@ Ed | Aug 4 2023 18:18 utc | 63

In all fairness, there are Russians by ethnicity and passport who hate just about all things Russian, but love themselves some Louis Vuitton. Or Yves Rocher…

Posted by: malenkov | Aug 4 2023 18:25 utc | 64

@ fortyRed | Aug 4 2023 18:25 utc | 64

Well, dumb — but not dumb. After all, there hasn’t been a draft in half a century, and it’s common knowledge that a war requiring mass mobilization would last about 45 minutes anyway. That, and as long as one political party can pin a war’s failures on the other political party, a draft is extremely unlikely.

Posted by: malenkov | Aug 4 2023 18:29 utc | 65

What are the absolute limts of this war to cause it to stop? I never see anyone anywhere discuss this. I agree that the West is way behind on military doctrine in this war with drones, satellites, spreading mines at a distance and so on. However, are we all behind on reasoning what Ukraine is capable of in regard to loss of life?

I read predictions that this war must end in 6 months or so after Ukraine runs out of pretty much everything - which doesn't include people. Even without tanks and artillery, they can supply handheld weapons indefinitely. The BND (German) spoke of horrific losses but that's not really true. The losses don't stop and aren't countered with protest. Horrific to who? Not Ukraine.

At 20,000 a month, it would take about 4 years to eliminate only a million Ukr. soldiers. There's still another 1 - 4 million left plus women, child and pensioners to simply hold a gun at the contact line. If you think this is impossible, then why? Kidnap them, truck them in and have Azov execute anyone who doesn't clear a minefield with their body. If this can't happen, what stops it? I recall more surrender accounts when the SMO began than now. And again, no protest or fragging.

Can the EU and US fund Ukraine for many years to come completely? Maybe. Would the MIC stop the war before Abrams and F-16's are introduced and blown up ?
(bad optics for weapons sales).

Where's the limts here? The bottom of the barrel? The "No Mas' moment?

Posted by: Eighthman | Aug 4 2023 18:29 utc | 66

From CNN:

When asked specifically about types of assistance the US could provide to Ukraine, there is broader support for help with intelligence gathering (63%) and military training (53%) than for providing weapons (43%), alongside very slim backing for US military forces to participate in combat operations (17%).

Given that polls are designed to produce the desired result, the conclusion would be that the editors (CIA handlers) of Newsweek feel strongly that the US should get directly involved in the conflict, while the editors of CNN are more circumspect. Presumably, they both have no concern regarding the principles or morality of it.

However, to the numbers, I would say that the CNN numbers should be described as of those supporting continued support for Ukraine. So lets say that 75% of US support continued support (allowing for they are stupid), then 63% of 75% support helping with intelligence (ha!) and training (ha, ha!) and 53% of 75% want to provide more weapons... etc, etc.

Posted by: jared | Aug 4 2023 18:32 utc | 67

@bevin 62

I copy & pasted the "rabbits"
(so blame the automatic transcription used by Geopolitical Economy Report ;-)

I was very superficial sry.

The history of arms industry competition among NATO members is very complex and very interesting subject, I only know parts about.

Of course the "big guy" will see to it, that the aides wont thrive too much.

They would take good patents in early stages away from the Europeans and integrate them (Manhattan Project & Star Wars) or neglect their development (Uranium Enrichment methods via gas diffusion initially after WWII, "Peace for Atoms" to sabotage independent EU nuclear development).

Posted by: AG | Aug 4 2023 18:34 utc | 68

Would the MIC stop the war before Abrams and F-16's are introduced and blown up ? (bad optics for weapons sales).
People keep not understanding one simple little fact: Countries don’t buy American armaments because they’re good. Countries buy American armaments because they have to. Think of such purchases as s kind of payment of “protection money.”

Posted by: malenkov | Aug 4 2023 18:35 utc | 69

I think it was Scott Adams of Dilbert fame who (on his blog) put forward the view that there is always 25% to 30% of the population who are so functionally stupid that they will agree that any lunatic idea is a good one. US boots on the ground in Ukraine. Yeah, great idea.

No surprise to me that the young - being less experienced - are dumber on average than their older citizens. And more likely to be polled in fact.

Then there is polling bias, seen in nearly every poll conducted for US elections. But no doubt avoided here.

Finally there is the relentless propaganda war being waged by the west on its own population. But even then, you might think Mad Bad Vlad is the new Dark Lord, but fighting Russia in Ukraine?? Really?? Scott Adams has a point I think.

Posted by: marcjf | Aug 4 2023 18:39 utc | 70

Posted by: AG | Aug 4 2023 18:06 utc | 59

"A problem in Escobar´s notion is "Demilitarization of NATO". This can be swiftly turned around by changing EU into war economies.

To assume France and Germany cant build weapons, is theoretically of course naive.
70 years ago those countries almost started to build a nuclear arsenal together.

The reason why building huge arms manufacturing facilities in Western Europe did not happen during the Cold War, in contrast to the USSR (tank factories), was simply, serving as war economies would have stood in the way of Western Europe being prettied up as the show-case for Eastern Europe´s public. "

> The problem with this take is that you assume France and Germany still have the materials and energy they had 70 years ago. Seventy years ago, the last coal mines were closing down in France, and both France and Germany don't have nearly enough energy production, steel and other raw materials to match Russia or China in a land war. Not even mentioning the crippling brain drain towards the USA that sucked those countries dry of their talented engineers.

West Africa slowly closing its collective doors to France is the beginning of the end for this country's energy and material supplies. As people in France are now saying, "les carottes sont cuites".

Posted by: Lemming | Aug 4 2023 18:40 utc | 71

Simplicius published an article on the 29'th of July which included a phone survey conducted in Russia; I think excerpts from that would go well with b's article (I won't bother to add quotes, just go to the article and scroll until you get to a pie-chart). Not that I particularly trust surveys to accurately convey reality, even if one believes the opinion gathering is being done objectively and professionally.

I had an argument with a poster below the article who was convinced that the survey demonstrated that 50% of Russians were in favor of capitulating, and that if the US could simply escalate or drag the conflict out just a little bit more they would break the Russian will to fight. I had to ask if we were looking at the same figures.

Posted by: Skiffer | Aug 4 2023 18:41 utc | 72

Posted by "b"

Newsweek Poll says: "A total of 31 percent of [eligible voters] in the U.S. support or strongly support American military forces heading to the battlefields of Ukraine, polling conducted exclusively for Newsweek by Redfield & Wilton Strategies has revealed.
A quarter of respondents neither supported nor opposed the idea of sending U.S. soldiers to Ukraine, with 34 percent against the suggestion. Just under one in ten respondents did not know."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
"b" asked: "What is surprising, at least to me, is the huge difference of opinions between the young and the older voters..."

Let me provide a possiable answer: A poll of eligible voters is in fact a political election poll, and all political poles are directed and biased. The CNN poll did not say that it was only directed towards a biased political base of eligible voters, therefore, the poll was different. In both polls the polling information is very skimpy, though one should be able to go online and review the polling methodology.

However, the methodology probably won't tell you that the Newsweek Poll was done to support Biden's war policy, and for the benefit and his 2024 campaign. I did not see a breakdown of party affiliations in the Newsweek Poll, the CNN poll did mention Independents, therefore I suspect that the Newsweek poll may have leaned heavily towards registered Democratic voters.

Naturally, young people who voted for Biden and are committed enough to the Democratic Party to go out and vote, will lean towards Biden's policies of war in Ukraine. Since 2016, these young voters have heard nothing but Russia gate and the evil empire which Donald Trump supported on MSM and from pro DP political pundits.


Posted by: Ed | Aug 4 2023 19:00 utc | 73

I think it useful at this juncture to enter the mind of your typical 20-year-old. As someone who hasn't been 20 for a long time but who had taught a couple of generations of 20-year-olds…but here goes.

So you’ve left black-and-white Kansas behind for colorful Oz, yay! And some of your friends are even more colorful in their appearance and identities (sexual and otherwise) than your hair and your tats. But they’re your friends; they’re kind to you (unless you date them, but quite frankly, most kids turn into shits when they’re dating, so what the heck), so when you think that Preacher Man back home rains down hellfire and damnation upon your friends, you find yourself not particularly well inclined toward Preacher Man’s (and your parents’) political party.

Meanwhile most of your authority figures are preaching dogma from (what passes for) the left, and because mom and dad are so far away and you need new authority figures, you fall in line. Now at this point I want to emphasize: There are valid and useful leftist perspectives! Michael Hudson. Howard Zinn. But most faculty teach that true critical thinking means: Believe the New York Times.

The consequences are oh so obvious.

Posted by: malenkov | Aug 4 2023 19:08 utc | 74

@Lemming 72

yes energy is an issue.
and of course raw materials.

I assume both could be solved. The sources have not dried up. They have just closed down the excavating facilities.

Nuclear energy could solve the environment issue besides that, which in Europe politically even in war-time you would have to deal with.

What I was improvising on was a scenario of those never-ending wars that we used to see in the Third World in the past, and that would now come back to Europe like in the pre-Modern era.

So it would not be a war that would happen next year with a single blow.

A slow drag and build-up instead.

I dont think this will really happen. But wanted to point out a few things.

It would be dangerous to simply count off Europe and the West in military terms as such.
Thats all I am getting at.

Posted by: AG | Aug 4 2023 19:09 utc | 75

First this "Russian Navy Ship Heavily Damaged In Ukrainian Sea Drone Attack" was on ZH now its on CBC (Reuters). Any truth to it?

Posted by: Calgary Guy | Aug 4 2023 19:11 utc | 76

I don’t know where B gets progressives opinions from. Most progressives I know are independents but then I live in a Democrat stronghold which is probably why they aren’t Democrats where I am.

Posted by: GS | Aug 4 2023 19:18 utc | 77

Salaam to all at this bar.Ed @63, it was daddy Bush / James Baker 3rd, not sleazy Bill at the time of Gorby- and the " not one inch to the east" gentleman's agreement.As the exceptionals later stated- "it was not in writing" hah hah ha Gorby was fooled.The Russians learnt and remembered this game-Minsk 1&2 Merkel / Hollande.Fool me once shame on ! Your on track otherwise.The excepationalist are the one who are not agreement capable!

Posted by: 4Q8 | Aug 4 2023 19:24 utc | 78

In response to Calgary Guy@77,

Some truth. A Ropucha-class landing ship appears to have been damaged by a drone. However, it has been pulled in to dock and is expected to be repaired.

Posted by: Skiffer | Aug 4 2023 19:24 utc | 79

GS: I don’t want to engage in the “no true Scotsman” fallacy, but it seems to me that anyone who has thoughtfully internalized the American progressivist tradition would be a Democrat with only the greatest reluctance, if at all.

Rather a shame that entities claiming to represent that tradition, including the magazine calling itself The Progressive, evince so little such reluctance.

Posted by: malenkov | Aug 4 2023 19:25 utc | 80

From the very beginning, it was painfully obvious that there was a generational conflict to this conflict. And herein lurks some really sad truths. These young people have no memory nor a sense of history. How can anyone forget The Vietnam war and its end, and just recently the Afghanistan war and its so similar end. I am in no way surprised that US weapons of war have performed so badly in the hands of the Ukrainians. It was the same story in Afghanistan. But these smartypants have never even looked up what happened. Just recently a 34 year old insisted to the point of storming out of dinner because she insisted that Taiwan was independent! I aked if she had heard of the one country two systems policy-and of course she hadn't. Why are these folks so blind? I think Alexander Dugin has the beginning of the answer. They have been brainwashed by the LGBTQ/Green/ movement that is in fact a clever ploy for the domination by America of the world. President Putin is defending christian civilization against the liars sitting in power throughout the West.

Posted by: Stierlitz | Aug 4 2023 19:28 utc | 81

It’s impossible to interpret polls correctly without examining the way questions are put. The Newsweek & CNN polls offer an either/or choice: US troops or not; additional funding or not. The CNN poll offers a scale of 4 possible levels of intervention, from intel to US forces. This allows respondents to express their pro-Ukraine feelings (and opinion polls are all about feelings) with a lesser form of aid, leaving only 17% of hardliners in favour of troops on the ground.

This highly original study by Andy West
https://www.amazon.com/Grip-Culture-Psychology-Climate-Catastrophism/dp/1838074740

analyses this effect in detail with respect to attitudes to climate change. Ask if climate change is important, & you get a high positive correlation with religious belief across dozens of countries. Ask people to rate its importance in comparison to other subjects, and the correlation turns negative. This proves (as clearly as anything can be proved in social science) that attitudes to climate change are irrational, governed by cultural factors and not reason.

The same situation is likely to be at play in this situation, where attitudes to a complex geopolitical event are governed by political, tribal or other unconscious factors invisible to polling companies (or politicians).

West argues that movements like the climate crusade are cultural constructs, and necessarily irrational. The fact that Greens are in many cases the most pro-war (proving that Baerbock is not a freak, but truly represents her electorate) is another indication that Ukrainophilia is a cultural construct in the making.

Posted by: geoff chambers | Aug 4 2023 19:28 utc | 82

I wonder how these polls would look like when:
a) Western "journalists" would seize whoring as war propagandists and would actually be journalists
b) the pro-war Western population would feel the war with draftees returning in body bags or bombs actually killing people like what is currently happening in both Ukrainian and Russian cities

I would have wanted to add option c) "when nuclear bombs are used" but by that time the chances of still be able to hold an internet poll would be slim and the pool of people to poll decimated.

Posted by: xor | Aug 4 2023 19:36 utc | 83

Posted by: bevin | Aug 4 2023 16:40 utc | 38

"That ruling class propaganda which the young consume so eagerly stops working when the heat goes off, the food runs out, the rent cannot be paid and living wages are hard to get."

Not necessarily. If you've been well enough conditioned you just shout "Tories/Republicans are to blame!" and completely ignore the fact that immiserating people is, like hating Russia aka "Putin's unprovoked invasion", a bipartisan policy.

In formerly Christian societies a new religion is inculcated, in which Hitler = Satan and "racist" is the new Mark of Cain. My kids have been taught far more about Hitler than I ever was, despite the fact that in my schooldays, half the teachers were veterans of WW2. The sufferings of the Jews are taught the way 17th century English kids were taught about the sufferings of Protestants at Catholic hands. The objective then was that they hate Catholics, the objective now is that they hate "nazis".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foxe%27s_Book_of_Martyrs

There was a big inflection point around 2014-15, as "Occupy Wall Street" morphed into "Black Lives Matter", as if organically as a response to events. A LOT of effort must have been involved.

I think the youth will continue to blame white racists/Tories/Republicans/Putin until reality hits them much harder. Despite the rent for a single room in the UK being £800 a month, you try suggesting that high rents may be associated with a million extra people coming in each year.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Aug 4 2023 19:37 utc | 84

If Russia is dragging this out thinking the West will tire of supporting Ukraine, they can think again. The West can pretty much support this war indefinitely. The US prints them money, NATO ships them weapons, and mercenaries and volunteers seem to be streaming into Ukraine to fight the Russians.

Just recently one of the Republican contenders for President (Chris Cristie) flew to Ukraine with blue and yellow flowers in his hand.

Posted by: bored | Aug 4 2023 19:37 utc | 85

Neat how the old are more anti-war and the young more pro war; and how the left are more pro-war and the right are more anti-war. Everything is upside down. For years have been joking to friends that Republicans are now the new Democrats and the progressives are now the new uptight judgmental conservative a-holes.

It's also ironic that progressive 'leftists' who ostensibly support the working classes hate 'the Deplorables.'

Well: the country is bonkers/nuts/crazy/psychotic. So nothing is all that surprising any more.

Posted by: Scorpion | Aug 4 2023 19:47 utc | 86

Skiffer | Aug 4 2023 19:24 utc | 80

The damaged landing ship was reported on the Lord of War telegram channel before it ever got to the western media.

https://t.me/llordofwar/184909

"The US prints them money, NATO ships them weapons"

Weapons are created by engineers, out of steel and electronics. Russian arms plants are working 3 shifts, 24/7.

NATO are going to regret shipping all their industry to the Far East.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Aug 4 2023 19:50 utc | 87

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Aug 4 2023 17:23 utc | 44

The Dems are the hard right just as surely as the Republicans are. Average citizens have to register for one of the two and most do it grudgingly, as they see no alternative. Most are simply endorsing what the see as the lesser evil.

And what's the logic of your false statement that those that want to end the war on Russia are "hard right"?
Naturally you, my poison dwarf, wish for others to conclude that supporting the doomed effort to attack Russia is progressive!

Clearly, more political education needed, but the anti war sentiment is remarkable considering the extent of the psyops in the west.

Typical, BS from (Bl)inkan.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 4 2023 19:56 utc | 88

@Norwegian (7) “ What is surprising, at least to me, is the huge difference of opinions between the young and the older voters
The young gamers are less able to differentiate between virtual reality and actual reality.”

What a change from the Vietnam War era when the younger generation was vehemently opposed to the war and the older ones were supportive. The main factor back then was that young American boys and men were at real risk of being sent to fight in the war. Not so with today’s western young folks. The Ukraine War seems abstract and non-threatening to them. Just let them be drafted into their country’s military and sent to the front lines to fight; their attitudes will change mighty fast.

Posted by: Rob | Aug 4 2023 19:56 utc | 89

Ahenobarbus @33

They've got the guns but we've got the numbers.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 4 2023 16:36 utc | 37

Gonna win, yeah. We're taken over!

Drinks all around!! 😁

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 4 2023 19:58 utc | 90

Where to start … so many thoughts from a life long experience and gaining wisdom …

As a child reared behind the dunes of the Atlantic Wall in the Netherlands … bunkers, live mine fields … parts of cities in ruins … stories of brutal occupation bij German Nazi forces … ruined my appetite for any war of choice or military intervention. Years in the States 1957-67 for high school and college education … left the States because of the lies and war propaganda of McNamara and Westmoreland. The TET offensive February 1968 proved me right …

The gun violence and citizens living in fear, inequality, lack of healthcare … too many negatives to stay and fight colonial wars … admiration for Cassius Clay and MLK in those years …

Damn, US capitalism and malign influence on society by large corporations crossed the Big Pond and became enshrined in European social-democratic politics through UK Tories, rightwing conservaties, NATO generals (Breedlove) and ambassadors (Ivo Daalder) who hammered Russophobic themes … the 9/11 attack was a revolution that spun into division and gains for populism as the Enduring Wars on Terror led to more wars, bloodshed and war refugees.

As US Congress and White House policymakers of the Atlantic Council, led the EU into the abyss. Division of the EU into New and Old was a winner for more aggressive war narrative. Only the older generation has memories of the ugliness of war and propaganda … living during the Cold War years.

The younger generation of video games, digital era have been brainwashed to accept bloody sacrifice … and means justifies the end. No Justice.

Sending these persons as ambassador to the United Nations, is no riddle what future policy of America will be like: from Madeline Albright, Samantha Power, Susan Rice, John Negroponte, John Bolton, Nikki Haley to George H.W. Bush (under Nixon).

Found a very accurate description of the clash between the U.S. and Russia to come over the Ukraine, from a speech by Prime Minister Vladimir Putin at the Bucharest Summit of 2008 and the NATO-Russia Council …

https://www.unian.info/world/111033-text-of-putin-s-speech-at-nato-summit-bucharest-april-2-2008.html

Posted by: Oui | Aug 4 2023 19:59 utc | 91

Interesting observation by Mr. Putin:

"However, the Russian president spoke about Georgia quite calmly and as if in passing," says a Kommersant source in the delegation of one of the NATO countries. "When it came to Ukraine, Putin flared up. Addressing Bush, he said: "George, that Ukraine is not even a state! What is Ukraine? Part of its territory is Eastern Europe, and part, and a significant one, was donated by us!" And then he very transparently hinted that if Ukraine was nevertheless accepted into NATO, this state would simply cease to exist. That is, in fact, he threatened that Russia could start secession of Crimea and Eastern Ukraine".

Блок НАТО разошелся на блокпакеты
https://www.kommersant.ru/doc/877224

Posted by: Oui | Aug 4 2023 20:01 utc | 92

In Ukraine the Russians have established an impregnable defensive line. With ample reserves, state-of-the-art EW and hypersonic missile and anti-missile capabilities, they're ready for any contingency. They don't want war with Uncle Sam. They're ready to wait for his demise.

Empire has committed the mother of all miscalculations.

Posted by: john | Aug 4 2023 20:06 utc | 93

Just a couple of hours in a bunker under an artillery barrage such as what the Ukrainian soldiers have been subject to would be educational for the younger ones ... the ones with still-functioning colons afterwards will have learned a valuable first lesson in modern war. The other ones will need some repair, but they also will have learned something about themselves.

Posted by: Caliman | Aug 4 2023 20:08 utc | 94

Soon we will forget about Ukraine. US has ordered ECOWAS to invade Niger, which will turn out being a catastrophe of similar proportions. Very bad. And even larger hordes of migrants heading north.

https://twitter.com/casusbellii/status/1687553690956128256

Posted by: unimperator | Aug 4 2023 20:13 utc | 95

the young old divide is the opposite of the Vietnam era; I think the abolition of the draft has a lot to do with this. now, nobody has to worry about coming home in a body bag. i don't know why the young aren't more worried about nuclear war, though.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 4 2023 20:14 utc | 96

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Aug 4 2023 19:37 utc | 85

The focus on Nazis as the ultimate evil, conveniently let other more ideologically preferable dictators and mass murderers of the hook, but also was designed to achieve what Orwell warned about. Anti-narrative disrupters (free-thinking English people) can now be effectively silenced by equating their arguments to those of the Nazis. The younger generation are terrified of being labelled the N word for fear of becoming a social pariah and online hate figure, all activities supported by some elected representatives who might form the next government.

In the early 80’s, whilst travelling through Russia, groups of children would tentatively approach us and enquire if we had basic Western commodities, biro’s, jeans, records, pathetic really. But now, in the UK in 2023, I’ve been approached by older children, with the same furtive sidle, and asked, equally tentatively, what I think about, and then out comes a list of double-plus ungood views. If we could wrap Mr Eric Blair’s body in copper wire and put his coffin through a magnet, we’d solve this country’s energy problems in a jiffy!

Posted by: Milites | Aug 4 2023 20:16 utc | 97

bored @86

lmaorof

Christie is #10

Posted by: paddy | Aug 4 2023 20:21 utc | 98

I think that it is important to note that most Americans Millennials and Zoomers have never been in the military, much less a shooting war. The closest these midwits have ever come to real-life experience on the battlefield is a co-op campaign of Call of Duty.

Posted by: Monos | Aug 4 2023 20:24 utc | 99

Zoomers in the united states are unfortunately our least literate generation since the early 1900s. An innovation in reading teaching was imposed in the name of AMAZING EFFICIENCY and COST SAVINGS. Here's the rub, it taught children to read the way the worst readers do, looking and guessing, not sounding it out with phonics. Phonics were a NO NO. Handouts were created to send to parents telling them they MUS NOT teacher their children phonics.

So the slice of zoomers who are not naturally strong readers, which is about 30%, were hugely let down, and as such are very vulnerable to propaganda. And that is without mentioning their depersonalization into their phones causing unstable and very influenceable identities.
https://features.apmreports.org/sold-a-story/ this is a podcast that explains what happened in detail.

Posted by: Cresty | Aug 4 2023 20:27 utc | 100

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