Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 23, 2023
Sunk Cost Fallacy In Ukraine

The U.S. military is continuing its criticism of Ukraine's military strategy.

Ukraine’s Forces and Firepower Are Misallocated, U.S. Officials Say – NY Times

The main goal of the counteroffensive is to cut off Russian supply lines in southern Ukraine by severing the so-called land bridge between Russia and the occupied Crimean Peninsula. But instead of focusing on that, Ukrainian commanders have divided troops and firepower roughly equally between the east and the south, the U.S. officials said.

As a result, more Ukrainian forces are near Bakhmut and other cities in the east than are near Melitopol and Berdiansk in the south, both far more strategically significant fronts, officials say.

American planners have advised Ukraine to concentrate on the front driving toward Melitopol, Kyiv’s top priority, and on punching through Russian minefields and other defenses, even if the Ukrainians lose more soldiers and equipment in the process.

The criticism is correct. The attempt to regain Bakhmut (Artyomovsk) is wrong. But the conclusion from it, to push more forces towards the south, is – in my view – false.

The Deployment Map shows that there are significantly more Ukrainian units in the east than in the south.


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It was wrong for Ukraine to defend Bakhmut, a low laying road and rail center surrounded by hills. As soon as the hills had been taken by Wagner fighters Bakhmut was destined to fall into their hands. For months the government in Kiev pressed its military to hold the city. There was even some pop-song published that said "Bakhmut will hold". According to Wagner the Ukrainian lost some 70,000 men in the hopeless defense of Bakhmut. Wagner lost some 40,000 while taking it. A high price for both sides. But paying it could have been avoided by Ukraine if it had pulled back just a few miles to the west where a chain of hills around Chasiv Yar would have been a much more favorite defensive position.

To combine the much ballyhooed counter-offensive towards the south with a new push to regain Bakhmut was a serious mistake. The leadership of Ukraine had fallen for the sunk cost fallacy:

The sunk cost fallacy is the tendency for people to continue an endeavor or course of action even when abandoning it would be more beneficial. Because we have invested our time, energy, or other resources, we feel that it would all have been for nothing if we quit.

As a result, we make irrational or suboptimal decisions. The sunk cost fallacy can be observed in various contexts, such as business, relationships, and day-to-day decisions.

President Zelensky had promised that Bakhmut will not fall. After it had fallen he promised to regain it. But despite the high amount of forces used in both attempts there has been no progress. The Russian defense lines have held up. During 11 weeks of fighting only one small town near Bakhmut, Klichivka, has been retaken by Ukrainian troops. What the U.S. military wants Ukraine to do is to concentrate all forces on the southern front:

Only with a change of tactics and a dramatic move can the tempo of the counteroffensive change, said one U.S. official, who like the other half a dozen Western officials interviewed for this article spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.

Another U.S. official said the Ukrainians were too spread out and needed to consolidate their combat power in one place.

Nearly three months into the counteroffensive, the Ukrainians may be taking the advice to heart, especially as casualties continue to mount and Russia still holds an edge in troops and equipment.

In a video teleconference on Aug. 10, Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; his British counterpart, Adm. Sir Tony Radakin; and Gen. Christopher Cavoli, the top U.S. commander in Europe, urged Ukraine’s most senior military commander, Gen. Valeriy Zaluzhnyi, to focus on one main front. And, according to two officials briefed on the call, General Zaluzhnyi agreed.

I smell another sunk cost fallacy here, this time by the U.S. military. It has invested in 'combined arms' thinking for more than 30 years. It pushed Ukraine to use this form of fighting in its southern attempts. That failed with high losses because Ukraine does not have air supremacy and too few means to break through the wide Russian mine fields. The U.S. military is now pushing for a new attempt that will again apply the already failed strategy with more troops.

The Ukrainian attacks around Bakhmut are to stop. Ukraine must concentrate on defending Chasiv Yar and the chain of hills around it. That will certainly relieve some troops which can be moved elsewhere. There are for example currently four artillery brigades near Bakhmut but only two on each of the two attempts in the southern direction. Adding two from Bakhmut might well help.

However, the progress on both attempts in the south is small. The length of the frontline that allow for breakthroughs and where fighting occurs is just a few miles. There are only few towns in the area that can accommodate and hide deployed forces. Pushing more forces down south will create dangerous concentrations that will be easy for the Russians to detect and to bomb and destroy.

I had previously explained why combined arms had become the favorite U.S. tactic and why it only works against forces that have a lack of air defenses. Combined arms attacks necessitate air supremacy. There is no way for Ukraine to achieve that.

The troops who are now around Bakhmut are not the best equipped of the Ukrainian army. They all have been fighting for months and with significant losses. To push these units, which lack arms and men, into a combined arms attack is a serious mistake.

There are military alternatives to attacking Russian defense lines.

The best is for Ukraine to move towards defense. Build multiple strong defensive lines along chains of hills and other favorite landscape features. Put roving commando troops in front of the lines to harass any attackers before they reach the defense line. Put the rest of the troops into the defense line and into reserve. It would be a mirror of Russia's current strategy that has worked so well for it.

Russia wants to take Donets. Defending it is the best way for Ukraine to make that costly. Running attacks against well prepared Russian defense lines is falling for a Russian attrition strategy. It will only decimate Ukrainian troops and equipment.

There are other alternatives which are even better.

Try to get to to a ceasefire or at least start negotiations for peace. A forever war is what the U.S. might want but it is the worst situation for Ukraine to be in:

Even if Kyiv does stage a successful operation against Russian forces in the future, it’s not clear it will lead to an end of the war. For one, Moscow may decide to launch its own counter-offensive to erase whatever gains Ukrainian forces have made, starting perhaps an endless cycle of military toing-and-froing. Or we could have a repeat of last fall, when Kyiv and its NATO backers, emboldened by the major gains made in Ukraine’s September counter-offensive, rejected the idea of talks to instead pursue “total victory,” at ultimately disastrous cost.

Even now, Ukrainian leaders and many of its Western supporters still maintain the maximalist goals of restoring the country’s pre-2014 borders, which includes retaking Crimea. 

Ironically, a prolonged war is exactly what at least some NATO officials had hoped for from the start in order to trap Russia in its own Afghanistan-like blunder, with the New York Times reporting in March 2022 that the administration “seeks to help Ukraine lock Russia in a quagmire.”

But a prolonged war will not be good for Ukraine, which has already suffered breathtakingly vast human and economic costs from a protracted war, and which falls further and further into debt with every month. And it will not be good for the rest of the world either, feeding into worldwide cost-of-living shocks while carrying the already twice-averted possibility of a catastrophic NATO-Russia war that could turn nuclear.

To push more troops into the southern attacks will, as the U.S. military admits, create many more losses in material and men. Ukraine can afford neither. While such an attack might make minor gains a chance to break through the prepared Russian defense lines, which it still has not reached, is hardly there.

An alternative is to change the strategy to do defensive actions.

An even better way is to sue for peace.

But the U.S. will not allow for that. The Biden administration has fallen for its own sunk cost fallacy. It has invested so much into its proxy war against Russia, in money, material and psychologically, that it will continue to invest more even when that is unlikely to lead to a better outcome.

Peace negotiations are inevitable. Delaying them increases the cost of the inevitable defeat.

Comments

Surovikin will be the new head of Wagner

Posted by: SlowSoft | Aug 23 2023 23:03 utc | 201

Prigozhin carried out some lame operation that ended up killing several Russian soldiers and then acted like it was no big deal. Any self respecting soldier in the Russian Army would want him dead (in my own opinion). American soldiers have had that kind of mentality selected out of them for a long time, but perhaps it still exists within Russia ?
Who knows.
If it is all some kind of internal debate by other means, who is winning ? The hardliners or the compromisers ?

Posted by: danf51 | Aug 23 2023 23:03 utc | 202

https://twitter.com/Faytuks/status/1694432486044979245
Apparently a last minute gift of very expensive wine was loaded on the plane but the plane was checked afterwards with bomb sniffing dogs.

Posted by: Manage without me | Aug 23 2023 23:05 utc | 203

heard somewhere on Twitter that Prigozhin wouldn’t take the hint to stay in the background and during the African summit, he was having meetings with all kinds of African leaders. Some say that this would have taken the spotlight off of Lavrov and Putin’s efforts and may have re-ignited the feud against the Wagner chief.
Posted by: Manage without me | Aug 23 2023 22:49 utc | 200
” heard somewhere on Twitter that Prigozhin wouldn’t take the hint”
When I was a youngster, old women gossiped at card party’s and at church pot luck suppers. Men gossiped at work. Children gossiped mostly at school

Posted by: bubbles | Aug 23 2023 23:05 utc | 204

@bubbles,
When I was a youngster
Was that in the 1800’s?

Posted by: Manage without me | Aug 23 2023 23:06 utc | 205

The Klingons and Romulins conspired to blow up Prigozhin’s plane, but they detected a transporter beam from an unknown cloked ship just before the explosion. This might not be true, but it is as factual as the other theories.

Posted by: barstool | Aug 23 2023 23:12 utc | 206

@Don Bacon (32). “ The most basic sunk cost fallacy is that we must send more soldiers to their death or the ones already killed will have died without purpose. . . .”If we don’t stay and win then our soldiers will have died in vain.” . . . So we get endless war.”
Those were my exact thoughts as I was reading b’s article. How many soldiers have died unnecessarily to justify the prior deaths of other soldiers? Those who promote such thinking must know that it makes no sense.

Posted by: Rob | Aug 23 2023 23:16 utc | 207

Posted by: Colin | Aug 23 2023 22:33 utc | 195
Your conflating inefficiency with corruption, and I’d still argue that the state sector is riddled with as much corruption as the private. My experiences of the state sector is that because the employees, and their managers, have normally no direct link to the bottom line they tend to be incredibly wasteful, whereas private sector workers are reminded constantly, by management, about budgets and the consequences of waste. Mercenary groups are very careful with money, but not particularly caring about its source or amount given, whereas professional militaries are as wasteful as their budgets will allow.

Posted by: Milites | Aug 23 2023 23:16 utc | 208

Of course, you want to say it’s because of corruption. Indeed, one of the purposes of military privatization is precisely to facilitate corruption. That’s why privatization doesn’t reduce, but increases, the problem of corruption.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 23 2023 22:33 utc | 195
—————————————————————-
Having worked for both the UK MOD and for a major UK private sub-contractor to the MOD, I found both to be pretty-corrupt and therefore wasteful and inefficient.
The MOD site was inefficient because it was just ticking-over in a Cold War role – So you had under-utilised resources waiting for something to happen.
The private sub-contractor was riven with nepotism, favouritism and empire-building.
For years all the senior management were free-masons with all the secret deals and back-handing that entails.
One day, a new top-man was appointed from corporate headquarters and he was a very-upfront Catholic (as well as being a psychopath).
Within a few years, all the free-masons were gone (paid-off with the company’s money) and all the senior managers were Catholics.
This went on for years, until corporate HQ could see that the place was performing very poorly and some serious engineers were allowed to rise above all the nonsense.
Too late – We were just managing to turn the place round, when the EU slight-of-hand ensured that all the up-market work was going to Germany and the UK contractor got the bullet.
Sad but true.

Posted by: Engineer-John | Aug 23 2023 23:18 utc | 209

Putin, June 2024:
“Those who organized and prepared the military rebellion, who raised arms against their comrades-in-arms, betrayed Russia. And they will answer for it”
la vengeance est un plat qui se mange froid.

Posted by: malamatias | Aug 23 2023 23:23 utc | 210

A key Ukrainian constraint is that most of their people have about an 80 IQ and in military terms that means they qualify for the artillery. The idea that they will quickly pick up armored highly integrated maneuver tactics is impossible. The Ukrainian generals know what their people can and cannot do. The US needs to give them agency.

Posted by: ATM | Aug 23 2023 23:24 utc | 211

What a pathetic waste of spirit. Wait… We do not have spirit. We are material… Sure…
Posted by: Z | Aug 23 2023 23:00 utc | 204
Indeed humanity as a whole is material, but some more so, some less. The truly decent focus on others as much as themselves, like their family for example. I hope you can embrace that as the most important thing of all. Be true to your family and defend them, stand by them with all your heart and soul. Old School..Woot, boorah!
A poem for you to consider;
The Road of Life
I expect to pass through this world but once.
Any good thing, therefore that I can do,
or any kindness I can show to any fellow human being
let me do it now.
Let me not defer nor neglect it;
for I shall not pass this way again.
I’m still working on that even at my advanced age, so I’m not preaching, just sharing.

Posted by: bubbles | Aug 23 2023 23:32 utc | 212

100% correct @ Cesare

Posted by: Blue Goose | Aug 23 2023 23:36 utc | 213

Number one, USA has the unique ability of creating internationally accepted money, while not unlimited, 100 billions is chump change. More importantly, just pretending things are OK for two years gives another election cycle. Someone in the future will have to admit the failure, as in Afghanistan, but that would be someone else.
Back in Ukraine, we have a mercenary government, not sharing the concerns of the poor mobilized sods (not so poor typically could evade…), hence ready to continue as long as the cash flows (nipping it here and there). While ostensibly democratically elected (on peace and reconciliation promises!), it is supported by “vote of cash” principle, while elections are postponed … until after the war.
Of course, American citizens and other residents suffer a bit, because even if money can be always borrowed, attention of the ruler has distinct limitations. If Biden spends more than an hour or two on pressing world problems, he has no more energy to consider something domestic… which explains his nap on Maui island (preceded by hours in flight and a drive on slow and twisty road).
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 23 2023 21:38 utc | 164
1. World Reserve Currency evolved from American Industrial, then Military power. The U.S. dollar is now devolving.
2. U.S. debt, incurred to pretend the U.S. has or has had a real economy, now or for the past 15 years, is now sinking the leaky boat. Increasing debt along with increasing cost of debt, is starting to yank spendible dollars away from everything, including wars.
3. Prig. There’s an old saying that Graveyards are full of irreplaceable men.
4. I once worked for a guy who just lost his right hand man. I said, how are you going to replace a guy who had so much talent. Says, the boss, “Stick you hand in a bucket of water, then pull it out. That’s how fast he will be replaced.” And in war it is doubly so.

Posted by: kupkee | Aug 23 2023 23:36 utc | 214

Reportedly #Russian🇷🇺 Kh-35 missiles destroyed an Ukrainian🇺🇦 S-300 complex next to Zelenyi-Hai village 12km east of Mykolaiv city.
📌46.961547, 32.254019
“>https://twitter.com/chris__759/status/1694492434003001534

A little payback for the S-300 in Crimea.

Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 23:46 utc | 215

While the criticism of Ukraine focussing too much on Artyomovsk (Bakhmut) suits the US agenda of making itself look blameless (for Biden’s re-election purposes) I suggest that Ukraine is being told by the same US administration to also retake Artyomovsk. Why? I have always suspected that the underground labyrinth of tunnels in the city (and possibly those of Soledar) may be hiding something that involves US biological weapons research that the Russians have not found yet, or is of the utmost importance to cover-up for the US administration’s purposes.

Posted by: George | Aug 23 2023 23:50 utc | 216

Good grief. People are, well, foolish. While everyone concentrated on Bakhmut at least three layers of defence were developed. Russia never wanted the responsibility for The Ukraine, (I think we can start calling it that again) and if they weren’t so corrupt it probably could have been a dam fine country. Brzezinski always thought there were too many Ukrainians. Twenty million would have been enough. Just enough to keep the extractive industries running. However now they have lost a third of the country he would probably think 15 is enough.
Don’t you think if Putin wanted Prighozin gone he would have been given a pill and told to go away?

Posted by: Inki | Aug 23 2023 23:52 utc | 217

Today’s terrorist attack on an aircraft flying between Moscow and St petersbourg, by the criminal Kiev regime, is an ill-thought attempt to create opposition to the Putin and the Russian government. There hope is for another ‘March for Justice’ on Moscow.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Aug 23 2023 23:53 utc | 218

@bubbles,
When I was a youngster
Was that in the 1800’s?
Posted by: Manage without me | Aug 23 2023 23:06 utc | 210
Your point?

Posted by: bubbles | Aug 23 2023 23:56 utc | 219

Posted by: Engineer-John | Aug 23 2023 23:18 utc | 216
The contractor got the bullet, when does that ever happen in a university chancellors office (unbelievable corruption and waste) or the NHS, over 50% of staff with no clinical training, management consultants on 3 day weeks earning 200+K? I worked with engineers and builders, come the various recessions the inefficient went to the wall or were bought up, but we’d still have state contractors ordering equipment that was 10X as expensive because, ‘they had been told to use up their quarterly budget’. As for councils, jobs were tendered using the envelope system of grading, each envelope being 5K worth of ‘financial inducements’, and those f’kers have just put up my council tax!!
As for the military, I’ve known several senior aviation technicians from different countries who’ve moved from state to private sector and the general consensus is that private company employees have a far better grasp of the bottom line; however, the rate of deterioration, of that ability, and their seniority is a positive correlation. As for psychopaths, it’s estimated 20% of senior managers have those tendencies.
My point about mercenaries was that the money aspect is far more central to their personnel and their operative capabilities than a state soldier.

Posted by: Milites | Aug 23 2023 23:58 utc | 220

Dima says …
Posted by: Simplex | Aug 23 2023 19:33 utc | 85
Dima is a fantasist, a clickbaity, melodrama queen (most days).
I do wish people here and elsewhere would stop quoting all those speculative sponsored pundits (eg Duran 1&2). I find their OPINIONS to be worth far less than the collective intelligence of *the good* MoD posters.

Posted by: SCCC | Aug 24 2023 0:03 utc | 221

The US administration lies again and is continuing its usual finger pointing and blame games. The point has never been to win the war but to prolong its duration. Of course things are not going well with the counteroffensive, but the whole point is to keep this war going in dribs and drabs to aid in Biden’s re-election purposes in 2024, and to continue with the idea that it is weakening Russia It’s never been about a quick victory.

Posted by: George | Aug 24 2023 0:07 utc | 222

There won’t be any negotiations while the coke-head is in charge, and Russia is doing fine, stripping NATO of weapons and ammo while still on defense..Next year, Putin will have another quarter million fresh and well trained troops, and will put the hammer down…

Posted by: pyrrhus | Aug 24 2023 0:14 utc | 223

So now Putin can’t even stop bombs being placed on private planes at his own airports. Weak.

Posted by: Shadowbanned | Aug 24 2023 0:15 utc | 224

Re: Posted by: George | Aug 23 2023 23:50 utc | 223
“that the Russians have not found yet, or is of the utmost importance to cover-up for the US administration’s purposes.”
I’ve been wondering the same thing, or maybe the Azov Nazi folks had/have stuff still in there. It has been a complete obsession over “Bakhmut” and siege & so many lives tossed in that it’s beyond “symbolic” or “strategic”.
Those “salt mines “ go long and far. I’m not so sure it has much to do with US though, the US thinks it’s untouchable no matter what despicable or illegal thing it does, I felt it had more to do with the UK/Nazi ‘s pushing it. Creepy to think what could be down there since the 50s. But this isn’t a movie, so, yeah, this obsession is too weird.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 0:15 utc | 225

Today, the most of them are ordinary consumers in consumer society, like in the EU.
Posted by: simplex | Aug 23 2023 20:43 utc | 128
No, unlike the EU, vast, vast majority of the males in Russia have served in the military. Huge difference.
We are talking like 90% of Russian males compared to 3% of nato males.

Posted by: UWDude | Aug 24 2023 0:16 utc | 226

Posted by: SCCC | Aug 24 2023 0:03 utc | 228
I agree entirely about Dima. He’s lost the plot and turning his daily reports into Hollywood-style “melodramas” as you say. I think he’s mainly interested in getting more donors these days and promoting his blockbuster channel. Always a big headline, and then he says the opposite. Spins to many fake Ukrainian made videos too.

Posted by: George | Aug 24 2023 0:18 utc | 227

Posted by: Martina | Aug 23 2023 22:54 utc | 201 “Not exactly. War ships are allowed to enter the Black Sea if their home port is located there.”
Do you know if there are any that haven’t returned yet?

Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 24 2023 0:23 utc | 228

Some leaders of the west may be swept away by the sunk cost fallacy.
Some western war profiteers may use the sunk costs simply to convince other leaders to prolong the profit train but cynically are only motivated by their profits without caring a wit about the horrendous costs.
Other western leaders [I believe Sullivan was one] have openly projected a 20 year war. Such people are secure in their faith that eventually the Russian people will overthrow the Russian war party and will welcome in the west to finish the job of ripping apart the earth’s largest nation that was begun in the 90’s. In the mean time, such people are satisfied with the increase of US political and economic control of Europe that has also been a consequence of the conflict. Such individuals believe in their ultimate victory, and are not that concerned with any costs. I think many motivations are in play in the complex geopolitical historical process playing out in Ukraine.

Posted by: mjh | Aug 24 2023 0:28 utc | 229

So now Putin can’t even stop bombs being placed on private planes at his own airports. Weak.
Posted by: Shadowbanned | Aug 24 2023 0:15 utc | 232
Word is from sources who asked not to be identified due to not being authorized to speak, Mad Vlad snuck onto the plane and planted the bomb himself. Only the Shadow Knows for sure tho..

Posted by: bubbles | Aug 24 2023 0:31 utc | 230

Posted by: SlowSoft | Aug 23 2023 23:03 utc | 206

Surovikin will be the new head of Wagner

Sources? (if true, it’s as I predicted)

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 24 2023 0:32 utc | 231

“The US needs to give them agency.”
Posted by: ATM | Aug 23 2023 23:24 utc | 218
You stated earlier in the post: “most of the Ukrainians have an IQ of 80.” What are the Generals “with agency” suppose to do with that? You see, I do think it’s about US “agency” … I think they’ve lost their best officers & captains, generals ect in waves 1, 2, 3 and now this 4th army is just simply the bottom of the barrel. There are probably less than a handful of officers that have a clue what to do is all. And it’s the US NATO trained trash that produced all these folks for now 10 years. As for the population IQ… I bet the US mandatory conscripts would look about the same.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 24 2023 0:36 utc | 232

Posted by: MadViking | Aug 23 2023 20:16 utc | 109
“THe war in Ukraine is about the future of democracy versus tyranny.”
Methinks that you understand neither tyranny or democracy.
“Tyranny” is absolute rule by one person, the Tyrant. We’ve much evidence that Putin doesn’t wield that type of power within Russia. Biden, with his completly owned executive offices is a far closser match to being a tyrant.
“Democracy” is mob-rule. Anything that the majority wants, it gets. There can be no protection of individual rights or property. It is the most cruel form of government. It soon breaks down into competing gangs waring against each other. You see examples of this in urban areas in the US that are completely controlled by the Democrat Party.
Crimea first voted to be independent from Ukraine in 1991, before the fall of the USSR. The Donbass Republics held referendums in 1994 and elected to be independent of Ukraine. All three exercised their UN Charter Article 1, Paragraph 4 Right to Self Determination.
Europe’ OSCE monitored the negotiated ceasefire agreement. However, Ukraine built an invasion force to take the Republics snd Crimes. OSCE reported the extreme increase in border violations. The Republics requested Rusia to orotect them. The next day, Putin announced SMO. Since they also requested to join Russis, Putin had the hold new referendums where all concerned nations could have independent monitors. A hundred monitors were sent. The NATO nations didn’t send any because they knew that they wouldn’t like the results.

Posted by: barstool | Aug 24 2023 0:39 utc | 233

Posted by: bubbles | Aug 24 2023 0:31 utc | 238:
The video footage shows no evidence of a bomb being used. It instead shows the intact aircraft in what looks like a partial insipient spin dropping from the sky before it hits the ground.

Posted by: George | Aug 24 2023 0:39 utc | 234

I expect that Prigors would welcome the attention.

Posted by: jared | Aug 24 2023 0:40 utc | 235

rk @62
“Nato also wants Wagner leadership gone, especially now when they’re preparing to bomb Niger. Sudan seems to be a solved problem for nato, no more Russia there. ”
It seems that speculations about Prig that take in the total context have to look beyond the coup event and to the dynamic in Africa. However, the situation there and the developing role of Wagner in Niger and elsewhere in Africa is well above my pay grade to understand.
Are you suggesting that Wagner recruits would be on the “wrong” side, from Nato’s perspective, and that could be a reason to decapitate Wagner? If they successfully recruited in Africa/Niger, would that have meant a battalion for hire that anyone could have hired? Or would Wagner have been on one side?
Can Wagner continue without Prig and Utkin? Their men must be shocked—yet they are hardened combatants. Surely another will step into Utkin’s place?

Posted by: Jane | Aug 24 2023 0:48 utc | 236

I heard last year on a podcast discussion that Zelenskyy’s mother has some connection to Bakhmut and that’s why he’s so fixated on it.
Can’t remember where I heard this and I can’t find any confirmation online either.

Posted by: AmusedIndian1947 | Aug 24 2023 0:49 utc | 237

Surovikin will be the new head of Wagner
Sources? (if true, it’s as I predicted)
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 24 2023 0:32 utc | 239
####
Hang on, when you say “Head of Wagner” you’re confusing a military commander with a business manager. Prighozin never decided military strategies or tactics. His commanders did, although he loved to make PR that it was all his genius. Wagner only fights nationally and locally where it is invited to after the sales contracts are completed, and even then it is SUBSERVIENT to State Defence hierarchy and politicians! So the “head” is just a financial and sales manager.
Perhaps Surovikin will “control” Wagner at some fighting level. But he is still an RF Army General, not a freelance businessman. So some corporate/military discrepancies to be sorted out there.

Posted by: SCCC | Aug 24 2023 0:51 utc | 238

This hit my inbox a few minutes ago. Made me think of William Gruff’s old joke about the Not-Zees.
https://ourimperialpress.substack.com/p/the-not-sees-of-ukraine
Nothing incredibly new to people familiar with MoA, but entertaining. Be sure to click on the link as there are multiple embedded hyperlinks that I can’t take the time to put into HTML here.

And make no mistake- Ukraine has a very real Not-see problem. The strain of Ukrainian nationalism that illegally seized control in the 2014 coup is directly descended from the fascist Union of Ukrainian Nationalists (UON), enthusiastic supporters of German National Socialism, and especially its racist policies. Any instances of disputes between the two derived from fanatical Ukrainian nationalism bumping up against fanatical German nationalism. On every other point of policy, they were deeply simpatico: rabid anti-semitism, extreme ethnocentrism, and a homicidal hatred of “Bolshevism,” to their mind including anything even vaguely on the political left. And this rabid “anti-communism” (really, anti-leftism) blends nicely with their visceral anti-Russian racism, another ideology shared with the acolytes of the psycho, shit artist Austrian corporal.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Aug 24 2023 1:01 utc | 239

JustaMaverick, @111
“There will be two prevailing theories as to Prigozhin’s demise. It was either the act of the CIA/MI6, or the Kremlin taking care of unfinished business.”
Surely the Kremlin could figure out a way to get rid of Prigozhin and Utkin without killing innocent crew members.
Sacrificing innocent Russian civilians just doesn’t seem to me like Putin’s MO.
Maybe I idealize Putin.

Posted by: Jane | Aug 24 2023 1:06 utc | 240

Bear with me here, all purely conjecture.
The bigger danger to Russia is if Ukraine declares war lost and withdrew all forces from all the Oblasts that have voted to join the RF. Remember this is an SMO.
NATO declares problem solved, peace and instant NATO membership to Ukraine as security guarantee. Why? Odessa now becomes NATO naval base and the Black Sea contained. NATO still gets Ukraine albeit less 20-25% and gets to base missiles 5 minutes to Moscow. A Korean solution may just be NATO’s way out.
Expect a Donbass/Crimea Liberation Front type entity to appear when the dust settles.
The only way for Russia to prevent this, is to declare war and invade Ukraine. Will it? I think yes, but my opinions are completely worthless.
Priggo : An unmanned Drone aircraft with a small bomb and 10 cadavers onboard is a great way to “disappear”. Personally, I hope he was done away with extreme prejudice.
Is this the only war where 1 side telegraphs its intentions openly?

Posted by: Suresh | Aug 24 2023 1:08 utc | 241

Posted by: SCCC | Aug 24 2023 0:51 utc | 247

Perhaps Surovikin will “control” Wagner at some fighting level. But he is still an RF Army General, not a freelance businessman. So some corporate/military discrepancies to be sorted out there.

Generals are more than just fighting men.
They are also:
– Accountants
– Chaplains
– Salesmen
– Engineers
– Bureaucrats
– Medical Doctors
– Politicians
– Managers
– Visionaries
… all rolled into one.
I recognise this archetype as “The CEO” in the corporate world.
In the corporate world, the CEO is “Head” of the company (army).
He oversees the work of the lead “Businessman” (“X” of Business Development, “X” of Sales etc …).
He oversees the work of the lead Fighting Man (“X” of Engineering/Product Development etc …)
If we apply these parallel roles from the corporate world we see that Neither Utkin nor Prigozhine could have been the “Head” of Wagner.
Both were far too specialised to head a true business entity.
One was a military “technician” / “tactician” – parallel to “CTO”
The other was a salesman.
Neither was a general (“CEO”).
The proposition that a General (Surovikhin) could be the next Head of Wagner is a proposal that for the first time, an archetype that has true parallel to the role of “CEO” would be placed into Wagner.
I’m not saying this will happen. Just that it’s plausible.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 24 2023 1:09 utc | 242

Stalin was not asleep before Barbarossa. Stalin was a stone-cold fox who wanted complete control so he completely gutted ye olde officers and replaced them with sycophants who would sally forth and be unsparing in manpower depletion.
The opposite could be said for the Wehrmacht, who were often at odds with Hitler’s central commands and would often only begrudingly obey them. Hitler lamented he had not purged his officers as Stalin had because they would have been more pliable.
Stalin’s USSR had Roosevelt wrapped around his finger with lend lease, but demured in Finland for fear of stoking popular disapproval in the west among its populations. Stalin knew he had to look the victim next to Hitler’s Germany, even though he was 2x the aggressor that Hitler was.
The recent construction of 100+ forward aerodrome facilities on the borderlands with Germany, extreme ramp up in military equipment production…yet we are supposed to believe the popular story (also the MSM post-war narrative) that Stalin was as meek as a lamb and the USSR and poor Uncle Joe had been caught being ever-too-peaceful by the dastardly Germans.
What a load of horseshit from the usual suspects.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Aug 24 2023 1:10 utc | 243

Some videos for today.
Russian Su-34 airstrike destroys enemy S-300 air defense systems in Nikolayev oblast:
https://odysee.com/@Overthrown:6/IMG_1488:1
Russian T-90 tank provides cover fire to airborne forces near Seversk:
https://rutube.ru/video/57240818a3c2a779ab6cd0a19326dc95/
Russian Ka-52 destroys enemy armored vehicles on the southern DPR front:
https://rutube.ru/video/1f0f63d5b54fd1d7006676ad9d7db353/
Russian drones strikes two enemy tanks on the Zaporozhye front:
https://rutube.ru/video/c03295f2a4595035be97b13484a050a8/

Posted by: Nate | Aug 24 2023 1:13 utc | 244

@122
“He was just in niger boasting about nigers revolt against neo-cololionism and now he’s dead. ”
This sounds quite possible—that the French or US engineered this.
They would not care about the crew members.
But, if the flight originated in Moscow, not Africa, wouldn’t this be pretty hard to pull off?

Posted by: Jane | Aug 24 2023 1:14 utc | 245

Sunk cost fallacy in war is almost entirely negative for others but more of a catch-22 for the US. Afghanistan was a sunk cost barely a year into the war but US weapons contractors made a fortune off of it. This war is a total loss for Ukraine. It is also a blow to US geopolitical aims but at least the US gets the consolation prize of weapons profits as Mitch McConnell so blatantly proclaimed a few weeks ago. So the US has less reason to quit than Ukraine does, at least for now.

Posted by: let’s get bizzay | Aug 24 2023 1:16 utc | 246

Posted by: Jane | Aug 24 2023 1:06 utc | 249

Sacrificing innocent Russian civilians just doesn’t seem to me like Putin’s MO.

What makes you think they were innocent ?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 24 2023 1:18 utc | 247

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 24 2023 1:09 utc | 251

The proposition that a General (Surovikhin) could be the next Head of Wagner is a proposal that for the first time, an archetype that has true parallel to the role of “CEO” would be placed into Wagner.
I’m not saying this will happen. Just that it’s plausible.

Development:
Perhaps it’s not the “first time”.
Perhaps the Head was always there.
Just hidden …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 24 2023 1:21 utc | 248

About 5 hours ago this morning (my time) Pepe Escobar was on moats (it seems that whenever I wake up & check out a little vid before rising that galloway is always on the goggle, I’m doomed, doomed. : ). Anyway Pepe was talking from Moscow and he said that the burg was rife with rumour about Prigozin’s death, but one consistent thing in all the talk was that his plane was brought down by a SAM. He went to say many people said they saw it hit and that the big money was on it having been a RF S-300, the big issue was whether it had been done under order by Shoigu or whether the amerikans had paid off an AD unit.
Galloway was making a big issue of the amerikans having completely cleared all their diplomatic staff outta Belarus in the last 48 hours while Escobar said that the feud between Prigozin and Shoigu was known to be a big deal that both took extremely personal.
I leave it to barflies to make of that what they will since both Galloway and Escobar have their flaws as well as virtues.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Aug 24 2023 1:32 utc | 249

Reuters — Ukraine forces raise national flag in Robotyne in Zaporizhzhia region — Ukrainian forces have raised the national flag in the settlement of Robotyne in the southern Zaporizhzhia region, Kyiv’s military said on Wednesday, though it was not clear whether the entire community had been liberated from Russian forces. “A historic day! Soldiers of the 47th Separate Mechanised Brigade set up the flag of Ukraine in the village of Robotyne, in one of the hottest destinations – Melitopol,” the brigade said in a post on its Telegram channel. . .here
Robotyne is on Russia’s 1st Line of defense, about ten miles from Tokmak (4th Line) which would put long-range artillery fires on Melitopol possible if they were able to get there, not likely.. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 24 2023 1:39 utc | 250

So now Putin can’t even stop bombs being placed on private planes at his own airports. Weak.
Posted by: Shadowbanned | Aug 24 2023 0:15 utc | 232
Prig led a mutiny against the Russian government in war time. If you think the imperialists we’re behind prigs death, I got some water front property in Bakmut you may want to buy.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 24 2023 1:43 utc | 251

@ Debsisdead | Aug 24 2023 1:32 utc | 258
. . .amerikans having completely cleared all their diplomatic staff outta Belarus in the last 48 hours
WASHINGTON, Feb 28, 2022 (Reuters) – The United States shuttered its embassy in Minsk and allowed non-emergency employees and family members to leave its embassy in Moscow on Monday as Russia pushed on with its invasion of Ukraine for a fifth day. . .A photo posted on Twitter by U.S ambassador to Belarus Julie Fisher on Monday showed mission staff lowering the American flag. All American staff have left Belarus, Fisher wrote in a tweet.. . .here

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 24 2023 1:43 utc | 252

William Gruff 108
I agree. It’s too fantastic.
Posted by: Themanwhofelltoearth | Aug 23 2023 20:32 utc | 119
I love you, Gruff, but Cui Bono, Cui Bono, my good man? The guy led a mutiny in war time!

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 24 2023 1:46 utc | 253

If the CIA/NATO wanted to get rid of Prigozhin and Utkin, as some speculate, perhaps Ukrainian operatives in Moscow could have pulled off the sabotage.
The way they assassinated Dugina.

Posted by: Jane | Aug 24 2023 1:51 utc | 254

Who killed Prigozhin?
Videos show that the Embraer Legacy 600 jet carrying the Wagner leadership lost a wing before falling to earth from 28,000 feet. The only two reasons this could have happened are because of a missile or because of a bomb onboard, most likely hidden in the wheel well in the wing. NAFO and the Western media will now accuse Putin and Russia of murdering Prigozhin and shooting down the plane.
Spetsnaℤ 007 🇷🇺 on Twitter asks “Who killed Prigozhin?” Right now the votes are:

  • The Kremlin 🐻 48.7%
  • The CIA 🦅 32.9%
  • Ukrainian sleeper cell??🤔 12.1%
  • The French 🥖 6.3%

I have already made up my mind, as has most of the Western world. No amount of investigation will change these made-up minds.
The people who downed the Wagner jet are the very same people who downed MH17. Both crimes were made for exactly the same reason – to lay blame on Putin and Russia.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Aug 24 2023 1:54 utc | 255

@ Petri Krohn | Aug 24 2023 1:54 utc | 264
2010 Smolensk air disaster – same thing petri??

Posted by: james | Aug 24 2023 1:57 utc | 256

scratch that petri… smolensk air disaster seems legit, although it has the associated conspiracy theories attached to it as well.

Posted by: james | Aug 24 2023 2:10 utc | 257