Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
August 23, 2023
Sunk Cost Fallacy In Ukraine

The U.S. military is continuing its criticism of Ukraine's military strategy.

Ukraine’s Forces and Firepower Are Misallocated, U.S. Officials Say – NY Times

The main goal of the counteroffensive is to cut off Russian supply lines in southern Ukraine by severing the so-called land bridge between Russia and the occupied Crimean Peninsula. But instead of focusing on that, Ukrainian commanders have divided troops and firepower roughly equally between the east and the south, the U.S. officials said.

As a result, more Ukrainian forces are near Bakhmut and other cities in the east than are near Melitopol and Berdiansk in the south, both far more strategically significant fronts, officials say.

American planners have advised Ukraine to concentrate on the front driving toward Melitopol, Kyiv’s top priority, and on punching through Russian minefields and other defenses, even if the Ukrainians lose more soldiers and equipment in the process.

The criticism is correct. The attempt to regain Bakhmut (Artyomovsk) is wrong. But the conclusion from it, to push more forces towards the south, is – in my view – false.

The Deployment Map shows that there are significantly more Ukrainian units in the east than in the south.


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It was wrong for Ukraine to defend Bakhmut, a low laying road and rail center surrounded by hills. As soon as the hills had been taken by Wagner fighters Bakhmut was destined to fall into their hands. For months the government in Kiev pressed its military to hold the city. There was even some pop-song published that said "Bakhmut will hold". According to Wagner the Ukrainian lost some 70,000 men in the hopeless defense of Bakhmut. Wagner lost some 40,000 while taking it. A high price for both sides. But paying it could have been avoided by Ukraine if it had pulled back just a few miles to the west where a chain of hills around Chasiv Yar would have been a much more favorite defensive position.

To combine the much ballyhooed counter-offensive towards the south with a new push to regain Bakhmut was a serious mistake. The leadership of Ukraine had fallen for the sunk cost fallacy:

The sunk cost fallacy is the tendency for people to continue an endeavor or course of action even when abandoning it would be more beneficial. Because we have invested our time, energy, or other resources, we feel that it would all have been for nothing if we quit.

As a result, we make irrational or suboptimal decisions. The sunk cost fallacy can be observed in various contexts, such as business, relationships, and day-to-day decisions.

President Zelensky had promised that Bakhmut will not fall. After it had fallen he promised to regain it. But despite the high amount of forces used in both attempts there has been no progress. The Russian defense lines have held up. During 11 weeks of fighting only one small town near Bakhmut, Klichivka, has been retaken by Ukrainian troops. What the U.S. military wants Ukraine to do is to concentrate all forces on the southern front:

Only with a change of tactics and a dramatic move can the tempo of the counteroffensive change, said one U.S. official, who like the other half a dozen Western officials interviewed for this article spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss internal deliberations.

Another U.S. official said the Ukrainians were too spread out and needed to consolidate their combat power in one place.

Nearly three months into the counteroffensive, the Ukrainians may be taking the advice to heart, especially as casualties continue to mount and Russia still holds an edge in troops and equipment.

In a video teleconference on Aug. 10, Gen. Mark A. Milley, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff; his British counterpart, Adm. Sir Tony Radakin; and Gen. Christopher Cavoli, the top U.S. commander in Europe, urged Ukraine’s most senior military commander, Gen. Valeriy Zaluzhnyi, to focus on one main front. And, according to two officials briefed on the call, General Zaluzhnyi agreed.

I smell another sunk cost fallacy here, this time by the U.S. military. It has invested in 'combined arms' thinking for more than 30 years. It pushed Ukraine to use this form of fighting in its southern attempts. That failed with high losses because Ukraine does not have air supremacy and too few means to break through the wide Russian mine fields. The U.S. military is now pushing for a new attempt that will again apply the already failed strategy with more troops.

The Ukrainian attacks around Bakhmut are to stop. Ukraine must concentrate on defending Chasiv Yar and the chain of hills around it. That will certainly relieve some troops which can be moved elsewhere. There are for example currently four artillery brigades near Bakhmut but only two on each of the two attempts in the southern direction. Adding two from Bakhmut might well help.

However, the progress on both attempts in the south is small. The length of the frontline that allow for breakthroughs and where fighting occurs is just a few miles. There are only few towns in the area that can accommodate and hide deployed forces. Pushing more forces down south will create dangerous concentrations that will be easy for the Russians to detect and to bomb and destroy.

I had previously explained why combined arms had become the favorite U.S. tactic and why it only works against forces that have a lack of air defenses. Combined arms attacks necessitate air supremacy. There is no way for Ukraine to achieve that.

The troops who are now around Bakhmut are not the best equipped of the Ukrainian army. They all have been fighting for months and with significant losses. To push these units, which lack arms and men, into a combined arms attack is a serious mistake.

There are military alternatives to attacking Russian defense lines.

The best is for Ukraine to move towards defense. Build multiple strong defensive lines along chains of hills and other favorite landscape features. Put roving commando troops in front of the lines to harass any attackers before they reach the defense line. Put the rest of the troops into the defense line and into reserve. It would be a mirror of Russia's current strategy that has worked so well for it.

Russia wants to take Donets. Defending it is the best way for Ukraine to make that costly. Running attacks against well prepared Russian defense lines is falling for a Russian attrition strategy. It will only decimate Ukrainian troops and equipment.

There are other alternatives which are even better.

Try to get to to a ceasefire or at least start negotiations for peace. A forever war is what the U.S. might want but it is the worst situation for Ukraine to be in:

Even if Kyiv does stage a successful operation against Russian forces in the future, it’s not clear it will lead to an end of the war. For one, Moscow may decide to launch its own counter-offensive to erase whatever gains Ukrainian forces have made, starting perhaps an endless cycle of military toing-and-froing. Or we could have a repeat of last fall, when Kyiv and its NATO backers, emboldened by the major gains made in Ukraine’s September counter-offensive, rejected the idea of talks to instead pursue “total victory,” at ultimately disastrous cost.

Even now, Ukrainian leaders and many of its Western supporters still maintain the maximalist goals of restoring the country’s pre-2014 borders, which includes retaking Crimea. 

Ironically, a prolonged war is exactly what at least some NATO officials had hoped for from the start in order to trap Russia in its own Afghanistan-like blunder, with the New York Times reporting in March 2022 that the administration “seeks to help Ukraine lock Russia in a quagmire.”

But a prolonged war will not be good for Ukraine, which has already suffered breathtakingly vast human and economic costs from a protracted war, and which falls further and further into debt with every month. And it will not be good for the rest of the world either, feeding into worldwide cost-of-living shocks while carrying the already twice-averted possibility of a catastrophic NATO-Russia war that could turn nuclear.

To push more troops into the southern attacks will, as the U.S. military admits, create many more losses in material and men. Ukraine can afford neither. While such an attack might make minor gains a chance to break through the prepared Russian defense lines, which it still has not reached, is hardly there.

An alternative is to change the strategy to do defensive actions.

An even better way is to sue for peace.

But the U.S. will not allow for that. The Biden administration has fallen for its own sunk cost fallacy. It has invested so much into its proxy war against Russia, in money, material and psychologically, that it will continue to invest more even when that is unlikely to lead to a better outcome.

Peace negotiations are inevitable. Delaying them increases the cost of the inevitable defeat.

Comments

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Aug 23 2023 17:03 utc | 2
“But attacking Bakhmut makes a lot of sense, it’s the only place where the Russians don’t have prepared defences.”
Russia is still inviting attacks against Bakhamut. Remember that they never closed the arms to make it into a cauldron? It is a killzone, a trap, to catch Ukrainian forces. The buildings funnel invading Ukrainian forces and provide the defensive barriers for Russian troops.
The only stretegic value, other than as a trap, are the roads and railroads. Russia had them captured or under fire control before the Z guy announced that the city was absolutely vital. (He got that impression right after it being vital to Ukraine’s second defensive line was discussed here. Russia’s MoD might have been following this bar, too. They immediately focused on the roads and railroads. That was also when Noam Chomsky put a recommendation on his site for people to follow this bar.

Posted by: barstool | Aug 23 2023 20:05 utc | 101

Posted by: James (seenitbefore) | Aug 23 2023 19:53 utc | 97
Some truth to this. I think this is what the maximalists at the bar are missing.
It’s a fight to the death against US imperialism, no small undertaking. They have responded well to the challenge, but the entire society has to be reworked for that effort. The relationship with China also has to be further developed and clarified.
So, at this stage it’s about survival and acheiving reasonable advances on the Ukie battlefield. A march to the Atlantic may be in the cards, but not in this phase.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 23 2023 20:05 utc | 102

@Shocked | Aug 23 2023 19:38 utc | 88
The % was small, most Wagners were not involved. Even those who were involved, as traitors they were, were trying apparently to optimize the smo. The method was very wrong, the logic was not bad considering Gerasimov, since he was put over everyone in smo, is completely unable to move the front line or stop attacks on civilians. Now with cluster ammo bonus.

Posted by: rk | Aug 23 2023 20:08 utc | 103

That is the definition of Zugzwang, or another term for losing the war. Agree that they should be maybe shrinking at this point and abandon attempts to hold east of Oskil river, which is a far bridgehead and very difficult for AFU side. But what do I know.
Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 17:21 utc | 15
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Sie sind nock immer mein lieber Herr Kein Kaiser zu mir.
You called it right in the other post also. That means I agree with you: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 19:40 utc | 91
I am waiting for the TV Episode version of: ‘MoA’s got Talent.’ b, you certainly, karlof1, milites, that Roman Foot Soldier, although there are higher ranks available, etc.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Aug 23 2023 20:09 utc | 104

Posted by: Simplex | Aug 23 2023 19:33 utc | 85

.. For them he (ref. Putin) is a bigmouth without teeth
Therefore they will escalate step by step
The SloMo only supports western partners strategy ..

Could You pls. specify the “SloMo” how it “supports western partners strategy” ?
Can You?
I doubt You can “how”.
Do not over-estimate RF-Gov’s pause and its retreat from some attacks on current front-line (900 miles along?), and pls. being ‘silent’ just today 2023-08-24 – know what that date is?, so wait, pls. be calm ..

Posted by: spare_truth | Aug 23 2023 20:10 utc | 105

Posted by: Ludov | Aug 23 2023 17:55 utc | 37
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I vote for NATO/EU, if it happened at all. The possibilities are endless until we have the facts, if the facts ever come forward. We still don’t have all the facts about the JFK assassination, and the Nord Streams terrorist plots.

Posted by: Ed | Aug 23 2023 20:11 utc | 106

That some people believe the Russian government actually comes up with the most bizarre and impractical assassination schemes possible says much more about those people than it does about the Russians. Hollywood has warped these people’s minds if they think the Russians cannot just kill their targets with a “mugging gone wrong” like they do in the US and instead has to use novichok or surface-to-air missiles and other such hare-brained schemes.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 23 2023 20:14 utc | 107

So which one is it ? Wagner attempted a coup, or Wagner was working with Putin on a ” sleight of hand ” operation ? If you chose the ” coup ” option your opinion would go squarely against the veteran posters here.
Posted by: Shocked | Aug 23 2023 19:38 utc | 88
Re: veteran posters here, etc, and take this as intended, without malice. A collection of old fella’s mostly, with varied degrees of education and wisdom, some quite insightful, some many bearing the burdens of life. Like me in some ways except I’m not a veteran here, more an observer. Most Vets here spend far too much time prognosticating, but it’s their time and you are encouraging it, demanding it.
Then there’s young bucks who demand absolutism so they can grasp something to hold on to. That, imho isn’t so much a bad thing, as it’s just part of the journey. Do you mind sharing your age range? 10 year scale will do fine if you don’t mind.

Posted by: bubbles | Aug 23 2023 20:17 utc | 108

There will be two prevailing theories as to Prigozhin’s demise. It was either the act of the CIA/MI6, or the Kremlin taking care of unfinished business. Either is as likely as not. When such two possibilities exist side by side with either as likely as the other, your fate was likely already sealed.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Aug 23 2023 20:18 utc | 109

” The % was small, most Wagners were not involved. Even those who were involved, as traitors they were, were trying apparently to optimize the smo. The method was very wrong, the logic was not bad considering Gerasimov, since he was put over everyone in smo, is completely unable to move the front line or stop attacks on civilians. Now with cluster ammo bonus.
Posted by: rk | Aug 23 2023 20:08 utc | 104 ”
Fair enough, however, I’m just calling out the folks who previously were 100% sure that Prigi was working in Tandem with Putin and that the attempted ” coup ” was a psyops against the west. Now some of these same folks are 100% sure that Putin just got his revenge on Prigi for a real coup attempt. The narrative change boggles them mind.

Posted by: Shocked | Aug 23 2023 20:22 utc | 110

As US already says Putin did it, Macaron had a speech that Ukr won’t be allowed to lose, France is ready for a long war.

Posted by: rk | Aug 23 2023 20:24 utc | 111

Almost all authors commenters here and elsewhere take it that Russia and Ukraine can/will/may/must find a way to stop the fight. In other words, that the matters related to stopping the fight involve Ukraine and Russia. The matters related to stopping the fight involve Russia and NATO and more specifically Russia and the Boshi-Nazi US UniParty.

Posted by: The Rev. David R. Gr | Aug 23 2023 20:24 utc | 112

I thought a condition of Prigozhn’s continued freedom was that he not return to Russia. Maybe this was a very prompt response to violating that provision.

Posted by: Promptcritical | Aug 23 2023 20:25 utc | 113

MadViking | Aug 23 2023 20:16 utc | 109
THe war in Ukraine is about the future of democracy versus tyranny.
=========================================================================
MadViking you truly are mad as well as smoking some very very good stuff.
To be writing such drivel this long into this conflict shows either a colossal level of willful ignorance, or that you are intentionally spewing propaganda. Propaganda that will not find any support on these pages except from others like yourself. You should go haunt somewhere like the Daily Beast.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Aug 23 2023 20:26 utc | 114

Q: Is it possible that the Russian industrial base is unable to support 500+ in a high intensity conflict,
Posted by: James (seenitbefore) | Aug 23 2023 19:53 utc | 97
You’re spit balling James (seenitbefore). Does Western MSM really need your back up? Could you explain what exactly it is that you’ve seen before? That might add some weight to your commentary. Yes?

Posted by: bubbles | Aug 23 2023 20:30 utc | 115

“Macaron had a speech that Ukr won’t be allowed to lose, France is ready for a long war.
Posted by: rk | Aug 23 2023 20:24 utc | 113”
Macaron and Scholtz wont be around much longer. So whatever the blabber should be mostly ignored.

Posted by: Comandante | Aug 23 2023 20:31 utc | 116

What is more surprising, that he died or that he wasn’t already dead?

Posted by: Turk 152 | Aug 23 2023 20:32 utc | 117

Posted by: Shocked | Aug 23 2023 20:22 utc | 112
For the record, I had said Priggy was probably meant to be part of the Ukrainian offensive, activated after the first defence line was penetrated. I also suspect that being a criminal he lied to the Russian MOD (he was under investigation) about the number of recruits and numbers of KIA, 30K seems excessive given the level of fire support and slow pace of advance, always follow the money. The Russians either killed him, or put him in harms way, either way they get to have their cake and eat it, as their highly colourful puppet can be mourned, whilst his organisation has been either subsumed by the Russian military or reverts back to its original purpose, a deniable state actor.

Posted by: Milites | Aug 23 2023 20:33 utc | 118

The most likely suspect for killing prigozhin is the French and then the us He was just in niger boasting about nigers revolt against neo-cololionism and now he’s dead. The niger generals will now wonder who can help protect them if Wagner can’t protect prigozhin.
It wouldn’t be hard to sneak in some assets from new natoized finland to do some shoot and scoots.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Aug 23 2023 20:33 utc | 119

to win global south countries over to their opinion
Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 19:40 utc | 91
That is not quite correct. The Alex M. Esq. in particular should know better.
1. The only G7 unit of measurement is money, specifically “reserve currency” market value;
2. US and EU rentier “partners” colluded in accepting UA “lend-lease” guarantee (See Lugano Declaration (2022), Advantage Ukraine “security” and NYSE equity solicitations (2022-2023), and London “Ukraine Recovery Conference” (2023) anticipated ROI;
3. G7 (“Price Cap Coalition”) search for Global South “opinion” expresses nothing more than valuable consideration in kind or cash “investment” to UA capital expenses that will dilute G7 obligation to repay UA’s public and private creditors in the event of default.

Posted by: sln2002 | Aug 23 2023 20:35 utc | 120

Re: Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Aug 23 2023 17:36 utc | 27
Counter Response
Let’s see:
All Surovikin speculation is just that. Even whether he was their “best” commander or not. Perhaps he is terminally ill. That does happen, and wouldn’t be plastered in the public.
Perhaps he’s now a civilian in charge of the Wagner organizations. We all “know” zero.
Wagners 50k group actually ended up about a 28k group where about 9k joined Russia military, 8k went to Belarus
4-5k left entirely and the rest, and went to Africa & even Belarus later sent them to Africa. Why? Because there CONTRACT was expired, not to be re-newed, BECAUSE the territories that they were providing services for on behalf of the Donbas Republics, were now Russian Federation & the Russian Constitution doesn’t allow private military contractors on Russian soil.
Rumor of 30k becoming “demobilized”… after adding this year another 47k of recruitment’s & in the middle of an SMO and “terror” attacks… they’re going to “de-mobilize” 30k to sit as “recruits” somewhere? Ok Sure.
Prigozhin and Utkin : Were these the same guys that “marched on Moscow”? Who else marched in Moscow and got “murdered”? I keep hearing it’s not a good idea.
The only ones “unwilling to win this war” are the inane, illogical & superficially “patriotic” ones that can’t even defend their dissatisfaction with any thing that resembles logic, relevance, truth or facts. The “bellyachers” are the ones “unwillingly to win this war”.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 23 2023 20:36 utc | 121

Failure @ me @106
Sorry dear Simplex, I’ve set a wrong link to that content, that You’ve referenced to “tesla”. (Posted by: tesla | Aug 23 2023 19:55 utc | 98)
Excuse, but the answer still stands as it’s ‘fact’.

Posted by: spare_truth | Aug 23 2023 20:37 utc | 122

Wrong. Stalin was fast asleep before Barbarossa. He had decapitated the red army in his obsessive search for “Trotskyite Saboteurs” and was convinced he could work with Hitler.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 23 2023 19:43 utc | 94
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It was a tough job, but it had to be done.

Posted by: Ed | Aug 23 2023 20:38 utc | 123

From Sputnik:
“According to information released by the government agency, the plane was carrying the following passengers: Evgeny Prigozhin, Evgeny Markaryan, Aleksandr Totmin, Valery Chekalov, Dmitry Utkin, Sergey Propustin and Nikolay Matuseev.
The plane’s three crew members were commander Aleksei Levshin, co-pilot Rustam Karimov and flight attendant Kristina Raspopova.”
Sooo… who done it and what will be the consequences for Wagner PMC (and implications for the SMO)?

Posted by: the pessimist | Aug 23 2023 20:39 utc | 124

The Russian population today is not the same as the population in 1941. or even 1991. Today, the most of them are ordinary consumers in consumer society, like in the EU.
Putin tried to wage war while keeping the impression of normal life and low level of casualties.
But the Ukrainian opponents are different, they are rabid nationalists and fascists. They do not pity their dead.
I see that Russia can win only by using nuclear weapons.

Posted by: simplex | Aug 23 2023 20:43 utc | 125

Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 23 2023 20:02 utc | 101
Could not resist this quote
‘Putin’s enemies are always crashing in planes or falling out windows. His greatest ally, it turns out, is gravity.’
Assuming he’s dead, and this is not some cheesy Robert Ludlumesque disappearing act, if the Kremlin were not directly responsible they certainly were indirectly. He was already under investigation for possible embezzlement charges and defrauding the state and he’d ridden the ego train too far, two months ago. Russians like stability, flamboyant yes, unpredictable no, as it disrupts their plans.

Posted by: Milites | Aug 23 2023 20:43 utc | 126

If Prigozhin is really dead and if the plane was really shot down nothing will convince any sane person that it was not deliberate murder at the orders of Shoigu/Gerasimov.
Darya Dugina was murdered a year ago yesterday in Moscow by Kiev undercover agents. The young lady was as innocent of any crime as she was bright and attractive. This was a true murder. Prigozhin, assuming he was on the crashed plane, incited an open military rebellion against his government in time of war and, in the course of his attempted coup, managed to kill several servicemen of the Russian Federation while they were doing their sworn duty. In other words, Mr. Prigozhin was anything but an innocent victim of murder. We still don’t know who carried out this operation or, in fact, if there even was an operation, but regardless of the circumstances, it is patent nonsense to pretend that the entrepreneurial braggart loudmouth was merely a victim of some kind of nefarious plot by Shoigu or anyone else. Those who insist on playing with nitroglycerin sometimes end up destroying themselves and those in their immediate vicinity.

Posted by: Jack Gordon | Aug 23 2023 20:46 utc | 127

I think a prerequisite for negotiations is that Zelensky is removed. And ties to the west are cut. How that is to come about is a bit of a mystery, but this war has surprised us before.
A new constitution — aka ‘denazifcation’ — will be a required outcome of the negotiations. In fact they will be little more than surrender by an other name, but they will still be important since Russia doesn’t want to occupy western Ukraine.
Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Aug 23 2023 17:09 utc | 6
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You are on the money, Jörgen. Another name to be added to my list of favorites, but, please, forgive me, I am nearly eighty.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Aug 23 2023 20:47 utc | 128

“But the Ukrainian opponents are different, they are rabid nationalists and fascists. They do not pity their dead.”
This is bullshit. Most Ukranians want to live peacefully like Russians. And they mourn their dead.
Yes the government in charge and puppet US regime in Kiev is what you described. Its similar to a fascist country these days.

Posted by: Comandante | Aug 23 2023 20:47 utc | 129

Posted by: MadViking | Aug 23 2023 20:16 utc | 109
Thank you for very skillfully summarizing the fundaments of the Western propaganda.

Posted by: alek_a | Aug 23 2023 20:50 utc | 130

“The SloMo only supports western partners strategy”
Posted by: tesla | Aug 23 2023 19:55 utc | 98
I’ve seen no evidence of “strategy”. And neither have you.
Their “escalation” is evidence of that fact. They’ve no strategy, they’re simply thrashing about in a tantrum.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 23 2023 20:50 utc | 131

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Aug 23 2023 17:36 utc | 27
“It does seem that somebody is unwilling to win this war, doesn’t it?”
You have been saying that for a year and a half, haven’t you? And during that time the Russians have defeated three USnato supported armies, haven’t they?
Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Aug 23 2023 17:53 utc | 36
The problem is that none of these defeats have so much as mildly inconvenienced the decisionmakers in the West, or even their proxies in Kiev. So they have every incentive to keep going, to send in Poles once they run out of Ukrainian meat, etc..

Posted by: Feral Finster | Aug 23 2023 20:51 utc | 132

In terms of battlespace maneuvers, I think the onset of winter will play a significant role. I would be surprised if Russia didn’t strike even harder than before on Ukraine’s critical infrastructure and transport nodes during winter.

Posted by: Off-grid | Aug 23 2023 20:53 utc | 133

Didn’t watch Military summary today, but someone claimed AFU is recruiting 200-400k new conscripts.
If so, it means they intend to get through the next summer in a similar fashion they got through the first summer. The reason they are doing that is because they want to build a fourth iteration AFU, i.e. have enough guys to throw plugging gaps while having enough guys to train in Nato countries. That would constitute the next offensive for Spring or more likely Summer 2024 (MSM already advertising it).
So, the fronts will continue to be swamped and crowded full of AFU men, the arty shell consumption will continue very large. Hopefully RU industry is up to the task.

Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 20:54 utc | 134

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Aug 23 2023 17:36 utc | 27
Putting it a bit strong man. If what Prizoghin said he was doing in Rostov is the truth, then he was given an incredibly generous offer. Exile to Belarus. Still be useful,paid and respected but keep out of Russian politics. Most observers would say he got a very good deal, because treason it was (or appeared to be) and in most places treason means execution or a very long prison term.
So what the hell was he doing flying to Moscow!!!!! he broke the deal apparently. What would any one do. Was it murder – maybe but closer to execution than murder. Battlefield justice – because the truly amazing thing was that Prighozin survived his attempted coup.
Unlike many here, I do not think that the Wagner actions were some sort of fancy trick. I think he was rebelling and thought he had people on side. The question is just who he had on side. I really hope it was not Surovkin – such a brilliant general, but fear it may have been – or at least he was tricked into some dubious actions. My own suspicion is that there were Russian air forces that supported Prighozin and that some of the planes possibly shot down were in fact rebels. Might explain the sudden defection of a helicopter pilot recently. He had no choice.

Posted by: watcher | Aug 23 2023 20:55 utc | 135

“Macaron had a speech that Ukr won’t be allowed to lose, France is ready for a long war.
Posted by: rk | Aug 23 2023 20:24 utc | 113″
Macaron and Scholtz wont be around much longer. So whatever the blabber should be mostly ignored.
Posted by: Comandante | Aug 23 2023 20:31 utc | 118”
What makes you so sure? Any leader of France or Germany that bucks the Atlanticist consensus will be unacceptable to the French, German and EU elites, not to mention those in Washington.
Therefore, Macron and Scholtz will be permitted to do whatever it takes to prevent that from happening. If that requires a wholesale massacre of citizens, they will do it without a moment’s hesitation.
With that in mind, the only thing they need care about is whether the German and French police and army will shoot when ordered to do so. Nothing indicates that either are anywhere close to the breaking point.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Aug 23 2023 20:57 utc | 136

Posted by: Simplex | Aug 23 2023 19:33 utc | 85

.. Dima says that Ukraine is going to mobilize another 200000 – 400000 soldiers. The West is going to escalate. The elites in Washington and London are not afraid of nuclear war. ..

Posted by: simplex | Aug 23 2023 20:43 utc | 128

Text.. I see that Russia can win only by using nuclear weapons. ..

Dear “Simplex”, nobody here can follow here on to your argue on that of your own brain status above statement, by this post.
That’s all – If want an apocallypse : Call Huner Biden !

Posted by: spare_truth | Aug 23 2023 20:57 utc | 137

I hope they can pin this on Lithuania.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Aug 23 2023 20:59 utc | 138

“But the Ukrainian opponents are different, they are rabid nationalists and fascists. They do not pity their dead.”
This is bullshit. Most Ukranians want to live peacefully like Russians. And they mourn their dead.
Yes the government in charge and puppet US regime in Kiev is what you described. Its similar to a fascist country these days.
Posted by: Comandante | Aug 23 2023 20:47 utc | 132\
Exactly. Nobody in Kiev, much less in Washington, cares what Ukrainians think, as long as the army continues to fight.
This “just the tip” style of warfare is only getting good people killed.

Posted by: Feral Finster | Aug 23 2023 20:59 utc | 139

Btw, Martyanov in the latest video said that insider information in RU military circles expect AFU KIA to exceed 1 million before all is said and done.

Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 20:59 utc | 140

Biswapriya Purkayast | Aug 23 2023 17:20 utc | 13
*** If Prigozhin is really dead and if the plane was really shot down nothing will convince any sane person that it was not deliberate murder at the orders of Shoigu/Gerasimov.***
If it was a bomb / sabotage, would think France a most likely suspect since Wagner had dented that regime’s antics in Africa.
Posted by: Cynic | Aug 23 2023 19:34 utc | 87

It has been announced that the plane was blown up. Apparently there was a bomb aboard.
Russia is going into mourning…
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Aug 23 2023 21:00 utc | 141

unimperator @137
True, but was the Ukraine’s third army as good as their first and second? Will their fourth army be as good as their first three? I cannot help but suspect they are getting down to the dregs now and will be happy just to find conscripts that still have a pulse.

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 23 2023 21:00 utc | 142

Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 23 2023 21:00 utc | 145
It won’t be as good.
As Larry Johnson put it, you can compare it to cloning a clone. The first iteration is the best, and the subsequent versions of the clones gradually gets worse and more degenerated. It’s no different in the case of armies, unless they have time to recover and train, everything will only get worse.
That is probably also one of the reason Nato threw in their active officer corps into the fray, and lot of them. Some journalists in Poland claimed that already 10k Polish officers or soldiers are KIA, and they must have tens of thousands more there.

Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 21:03 utc | 143

Posted by: spare_truth | Aug 23 2023 20:57 utc | 140
But then, ‘Dear Simplex & so-welcomed guys take some more “Speed” to reach Your Meaningd-Fight via Internet – Have a secure INet-Server ..? .. or only publish by GGl-Face-X like MSM’s ?
Be welcomed here – on MoAs – we’ll never forget Your fact-based input by ‘facts’.
Bye

Posted by: spare_truth | Aug 23 2023 21:04 utc | 144

THe war in Ukraine is about the future of democracy versus tyranny. If Russia is allowed to take the oil and gas resources that belong to Ukraine they will continue to invade neighboring countries for their gain. Tyranny must be stopped. The free world needs to unite and fight this invasion. It is a war of attrition now, and capitalist economies will rule in this regard. Let’s support Ukraine to win!
Without the Kerch bridge and a land route, Crimea is defenseless. This is doable!
Posted by: MadViking | Aug 23 2023 20:16 utc | 109
Re: Syria and the hegemony.
“‘We’re keeping the oil’ in Syria, Trump says, but it’s considered a war crime ”
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/keeping-oil-syria-trump-considered-war-crime/story?id=66589757
Where is the ICC? Did they catch the last train for the coast?
Where is the UN Secretary General Guterres on this gross violation of Syria’s sovereignty? Did he catch a ride on that train too?
Where is the ICC on Israel’s multiple breaches of so called International Law?
The day, the music died. And we were singing bye bye Miss American Pie, good old boys were drinking whiskey and rye and singing this will be the day …decency and hope died, and terror flourished.
It ain’t right, it just ain’t right.
Ever watch any old American Cowboy movies? The prevailing theme always was about doing the right thing.
A riddle, wrapped in bullshit, inside an enigma

Posted by: bubbles | Aug 23 2023 21:04 utc | 145

There have been some fascinating breakthroughs during the BRICS summit in South Africa.
To begin, Russia will play host the next BRICS summit. Russia will also serve as the conference’s chair.
Secondly, is the announcement of the BRICS GAMES, a brand new and thrilling athletic event. Similar to the Olympic Games it will be staged for the first time in Russia, with the BRICS nation and other invited countries sending their best athletes to compete.
Third, next month will see a trip to Moscow from President Erdogan of Turkey.
A GOOD WEEK FOR RUSSIA AND MR PUTIN I THINK

Posted by: HERMIUS | Aug 23 2023 21:05 utc | 146

THe war in Ukraine is about the future of democracy versus tyranny.
Posted by: MadViking | Aug 23 2023 20:16 utc | 109
Is it? Well maybe you can tell me which is the “tyranny” and which side the “democracy”?

Posted by: HERMIUS | Aug 23 2023 21:08 utc | 147

Putin and his masters behind him
Would have wacked Prigozhin cleanly in Africa
or elsewhere by far more discrete means.
Not in Russia in a spectacular and definitive plane crash.
(perhaps the guy will turn up alive – for all we know.)
If he was murdered, it looks like the work of CIA, Mossad, MI6 – the usual suspects.
How quickly and giddily the Mainstream news has glommed onto “the story” as they deem it – the death of a failed coup plotter.
Nothing is as it seems.
I know a sophomoric comment, but it is true.

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Aug 23 2023 21:14 utc | 148

Posted by: HERMIUS | Aug 23 2023 21:05 utc | 149

.. Third, next month will see a trip to Moscow from President Erdogan of Turkey. .. A GOOD WEEK FOR RUSSIA AND MR PUTIN I THINK ..

Think so too, but MIL-losses on the RF-side on ground trenches (even less factor 1/5 of UAF men) seem to ‘some others’ not to be so ‘gratefully presented’ within RF-Media !

Posted by: spare_truth | Aug 23 2023 21:16 utc | 149

Then there’s young bucks who demand absolutism so they can grasp something to hold on to. That, imho isn’t so much a bad thing, as it’s just part of the journey. Do you mind sharing your age range? 10 year scale will do fine if you don’t mind.
Posted by: bubbles | Aug 23 2023 20:17 utc | 110
——————————————————-
Sorry bubbles, that information is none of your business.

Posted by: Ed | Aug 23 2023 21:16 utc | 150

And in other news….
Ukraine announced the formation of a new military cemetery, that can hold over 400,000 graves.

Posted by: BroncoBilly | Aug 23 2023 21:20 utc | 151

Did the bmob take out the pilots or the rudder, ailerons, engines on other mechanical systems?

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Aug 23 2023 21:20 utc | 152

Re: Posted by: simplex | Aug 23 2023 20:43 utc | 128
No nation’s populations are what they were in 41 or 91.
Russia has no need to use nukes, and perish the thought.
Russia wouldn’t be alone in a full on NATO/US ground war.
They have friends who are as vicious as the Ukie Nazis.
Would Ukraine really like to see some battle hardened gorilla warfare Nicaraguans on their soil?. Like a Nazi weasel supremest, happy to beat up on civil society & lock helpless women and children in a hotel and set it on fire, even Russian soldiers look “docile” to them. But that can turn on a dime. Russian soldiers could stop being “docile” on a dime.
Russia currently can annihilate Ukraine with zero need for nukes. This is looking more like the outcome everyday.
Russia may seem “outnumbered” but in fact, they have all the numbers they need if this goes to full scale EU ground war. Russia has friends and lots more “numbers” that the West could ever dream of providing. And there “friends” unlike the Western Alliances, have missed a meal or too over the years.

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 23 2023 21:21 utc | 153

Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Aug 23 2023 21:20 utc | 155
It was a SAM. Smoke trail in some of the videos.

Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 23 2023 21:22 utc | 154

Posted by: Ed | Aug 23 2023 21:16 utc | 153

.. Sorry bubbles, that information is none of your business. ..

And what’s Your bubble ? Think about ..
Next post, We(*) expect some more “facts” rather than “fakes” or “Meanings/Opinions” !
Kept that ?

Posted by: spare_truth | Aug 23 2023 21:24 utc | 155

This is what happens when the US, its vassal state Ukraine, and its European lapdogs all are beholden to their own versions of a delusional narrative. I can’t say what the real agendas of each of the players are, for Ukraine it looks like it is mostly trying to stay afloat. Actually I don’t think any of them could articulate a real agenda, it’s mostly pixie dust and unicorn farts. What would happen if Ukraine was actually able to break through to Melitopol, but lost another 25% of its army in doing so? Establishing a salient requires even more resources to hold it. Supply lines must be established and protected, troops must be rotated, some defenses have to be established, while the Russians would be taking shots at them with everything they have. Would the Ukies have the resources to go further, while their army gets picked apart? What is the point of getting half way to the coast if that’s all your army can do, and losing even more of it in the process? If this is obvious to me, with no military background, then surely the high ranking military geniuses understood this from the get go.
Then there’s the whining about Ukraine not doing ‘combined arms.’ NATO’s idea of combined arms is the attacking force has air superiority, while the defensive force has little or no air support. In Ukraine’s case this is turned on its head. Yet Ukraine is expected to carry out a successful offense when it doesn’t have the necessary components to do this. Again, the futility of this should be obvious, unless everyone involved has inserted their collective heads so far up their collective arses that they believe they are seeing daylight.

Posted by: Mike R | Aug 23 2023 21:25 utc | 156

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 23 2023 19:43 utc | 94
What you say, if correct, would further support my claim.
It is often assumed that the effects of Stalin’s purges of the military leaders would take time to calm down, and that this was just a rational reason for Stalin to want to make peace with Hitler for the time being.
It is true that people are often perceived to be rational when in fact they are irrational. But these perceived irrational choices are not as irrational as people think.

Posted by: Colin | Aug 23 2023 21:26 utc | 157

Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 23 2023 21:22 utc | 157
Don’t know what you’ve seen, but here’s what I’ve seen.
Take a look at the video of the claimed event of the plane falling down.
It’s pretty unambiguous to deduce that there is no SAM trail on the video, the trail is caused by the falling and burning plane. The trail comes to existence from the plane, as it falls down, it wasn’t there before. There was an explosion, but no evidence of SAM trail.
It was a bomb.
https://t.me/antinatocoalition/11676?single

Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 21:30 utc | 158

“American planners have advised Ukraine to”
It definitely is a proxy war of the U.S. against Russia. Russia went along with U.S. plans for so long and backed itself into a corner until there was practically no choice but to fight and after U.S. prepared Ukraine for several years. Russia can’t afford to keep the lazy and incompetent generals in charge.

Posted by: MiniMo | Aug 23 2023 21:30 utc | 159

Posted by: HERMIUS | Aug 23 2023 21:05 utc | 149 “Third, next month will see a trip to Moscow from President Erdogan of Turkey.”
I’m not sure that Erdogan’s trip is all that great as he just reiterated his statement that Crimea belongs to Ukraine:
https://www.aa.com.tr/en/politics/ankara-does-not-recognize-russias-annexation-of-crimea-president-erdogan-reaffirms/2974565
And is sending weapons and ammunition to Ukraine. https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/01/10/turkey-cold-war-cluster-bombs-ukraine/
and said this within the last month: Erdogan said that “Ukraine deserves NATO membership with no doubt.”
https://twitter.com/jsilva982/status/1677682518139518976

Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 23 2023 21:32 utc | 160

But the U.S. will not allow for that. The Biden administration has fallen for its own sunk cost fallacy.
Posted by b on August 23, 2023 at 16:48 UTC | Permalink
Sunken cost fallacy applies to business etc. But not to a democratically elected government, especially one that is exposed to elections as frequently as the one in USA. Number one, USA has the unique ability of creating internationally accepted money, while not unlimited, 100 billions is chump change. More importantly, just pretending things are OK for two years gives another election cycle. Someone in the future will have to admit the failure, as in Afghanistan, but that would be someone else.
Back in Ukraine, we have a mercenary government, not sharing the concerns of the poor mobilized sods (not so poor typically could evade…), hence ready to continue as long as the cash flows (nipping it here and there). While ostensibly democratically elected (on peace and reconciliation promises!), it is supported by “vote of cash” principle, while elections are postponed … until after the war.
Of course, American citizens and other residents suffer a bit, because even if money can be always borrowed, attention of the ruler has distinct limitations. If Biden spends more than an hour or two on pressing world problems, he has no more energy to consider something domestic… which explains his nap on Maui island (preceded by hours in flight and a drive on slow and twisty road).

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Aug 23 2023 21:38 utc | 161

Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 23 2023 21:32 utc | 163
It’s more likely that Erdogan is just stirring the pot. If USA announces that Ukraine belongs to Nato, Nato will disintegrate due to their article 5 commitment exposed as empty words.
That’s what they “threatened” to do next year. Eagerly waiting for that to happen, but too bad you know, it really won’t. Because Russia will ignore any and every commitment Nato claims to make in Ukraine and Nato is merely a marketing sham that functions in its primary task of making revenue for American companies, as long as it isn’t exposed.

Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 21:39 utc | 162

Posted by: Shocked | Aug 23 2023 20:22 utc | 112
I always believed it was a coup lmfao
Seems like you’re implying that I didn’t think/claim that in the past.
Not so much mind gymnastics, I’m just celebrating the death of a collaborator with the West.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 23 2023 20:33 utc | 121
Mercenaries, as private military enterprises, like any other private enterprise, are characterized by inefficiency and wastefulness compared to state-owned enterprises (national armies). This is a common consequence of the privatization of public enterprises in the wave of neoliberalism around the world.

Posted by: Colin | Aug 23 2023 21:39 utc | 163

Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 23 2023 21:32 utc | 163
Oh FFS
Turkey is playing both sides. Everyone knows that, including Russia. Erdogan is a clever and tricky customer but both sides need him. He knows that if he fully supports Russia the yankee airforce occupying his country will kick him out and start a civil war. He also knows that if he blocks Russian access to the Black sea he will be kinzhaled or worse. That would be existential for Russia and little of Istanbul would survive. Talk of ta tactical nukes – then yes Incilkirc would be the very first target – forget about civilians in Lvov or Kiev.

Posted by: watcher | Aug 23 2023 21:49 utc | 164

Posted by: watcher | Aug 23 2023 21:49 utc | 167
USSR could have actually had a plan to occupy Dardanelles straits and establish a military base under some circumstances, but that never happened. It was post-WW1 to pre-WW2.

Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 21:54 utc | 165

Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 21:30 utc | 161
Posted by: unimperator | Aug 23 2023 21:39 utc | 165
I have seen several videos of it. One captures the plane through the clouds at a higher altitude. It was posted by a known Russian sympathizer but some people are now saying it is fake. So there might not be any ‘evidence’ of a SAM if that is the case. And as you say, a bomb is most likely.
I agree with your comment on Erdogan.
And there is no way every country in NATO would vote to allow Ukraine into it. Among others, would Hungary? They haven’t even voted to allow Sweden.

Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 23 2023 21:54 utc | 166

In light of the current discussion I propose a poll:
Option 1: Prigi staged a real coup earlier this year.
Option 2: The “coup” was a psyop done in cahoots with the Kremlin.
Option 3: The “coup” was something different all together.

Posted by: Shocked | Aug 23 2023 21:57 utc | 167

bubbles 110
Strange idea to link absolutism to age. What I see all around me is a generation of relativists that came after my generation and now a fresh new generation that has no intention whatsoever of copying their dumb relativism.
Relativism is so lower echelons ( of Hell ).
The idea of attaching one’s hopes to a Market and fighting a proxy war against Socialism is soo boring. Have we really got to have spend another year and a half thinking about Biden’s McCarthyist drivel.

Posted by: Giyane | Aug 23 2023 21:58 utc | 168

Shocked @ 112

Now some of these same folks are 100% sure that Putin just got his revenge on Prigi for a real coup attempt. The narrative change boggles them mind.

Don’t look at me, I knew the minute I read the Chechens were on the way to Rostov-on-Dom to fight the Wagners that someone was having silly ass fun, Kadyrov and Prighozin – two impresarios too over the top to manage a low key psyops. IMO the Pentagon/UK/Brussles did it as payback for all the RF hits on decision making centers over the last couple of months. Took out a lot of western military officials and mercenaries and fucked up probably a lot more.
Prigozhin being a privateer using private aircraft and civilian airports instead of strictly military left himself vulnerable. He knew what he was up too, a bold and brash pirate, it was very careless to focus so much attention on himself but that was also the recruitment shtick for Wagner, he was the owner, advertiser, poster boy and chief salesman.
Remember when just before the Kherson pullback Chechen HQ took a direct hit and lost a lot of men? Remember what a bunch of media whores they were before that? Kadyrov got the message, the Chechens went dark afterwards and Kadyrov on his website went back to making tourist videos for Grozny. Prighozin couldn’t stay out of the limelight.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Aug 23 2023 21:58 utc | 169

Posted by: watcher | Aug 23 2023 21:49 utc | 167 “He also knows that if he blocks Russian access to the Black sea he will be kinzhaled or worse”
He is blocking access to the Black Sea for any Russian warships, isn’t he?
At the speed things are going Bulgarian Navy will commission their new build and become the largest Navy on the Black Sea 🙂

Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 23 2023 21:59 utc | 170

Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 23 2023 17:49 utc | 32
yeah the grateful dead.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Aug 23 2023 21:59 utc | 171

watcher | Aug 23 2023 20:55 utc | 138
*** So what the hell was he doing flying to Moscow!***
Perhaps to discuss the Niger situation?
Still think France the most likely suspect, to get even for Mali.

Posted by: Cynic | Aug 23 2023 22:00 utc | 172

Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 23 2023 21:21 utc | 156

.. Russia may seem “outnumbered” but in fact, they have all the numbers they need if this goes to full scale EU ground war. Russia has friends and lots more “numbers” that the West could ever dream of providing. And there “friends” unlike the Western Alliances, have missed a meal or too over the years. ..

You might be ‘true’ here acc.to the facts today, but some guys (wherever from) will doubt on that. why:
– Nowadays, RF-Army on all front-lines is just of “some weak – Agreed – Okay.
– UAF sends its newly 3-rd version of re-configured brigades, thereto conscripted men-power SAMPLED on streets – without any strategical plan to the “FRONT”.
That’s it. Everyone knows about that in Ukrania. But No one hinder Mr. TV-Cock-Player.
Remaining UKR people will be shut-down economically by a ‘very new’ after-war government.
So let’s wait – what’s going on in “The Black Sea” war – Russians have to learn more lessons on that than it can ..!

Posted by: spare_truth | Aug 23 2023 22:01 utc | 173

Posted by: Shocked | Aug 23 2023 21:57 utc | 170
Perhaps the only thing required is that you don’t claim that other people have a point of view that they never had.

Posted by: Colin | Aug 23 2023 22:01 utc | 174

Wrong. Stalin was fast asleep before Barbarossa. He had decapitated the red army in his obsessive search for “Trotskyite Saboteurs” and was convinced he could work with Hitler.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 23 2023 19:43 utc | 94
Wrong. Stalin did no such thing. Read the history – the three trials. If the judicial system hadn’t dealt with the saboteurs, Trotsky, Radek, Tukhachevsky, et al, then the outcome of WWII would have been horrific: Russia aligned with Germany, and Japan would have left Europe and the US under an iron heel. Because of the central committee, the Red Army wasn’t decapitated. How could a decapitated army, supposedly one with no morale, defeat an enemy that no other European or US force could? Only high morale and great leadership, which Stalin and Zhukov provided, could inspire such a great feat. And for that, Stalin will never be forgiven. You smart asses who attack Stalin’s legacy aren’t much better than the Banderites. Trotsky and Bandera were peas in a pod – political opportunists who would align themselves with fascists rather than build socialism. Your narrow anti-Stalin outlook is, essentially, anti-communist and anti-socialist.

Posted by: zeke2u | Aug 23 2023 22:01 utc | 175

OT a bit
Has anyone had any news about the fate of Gonzalo Lira?

Posted by: Manage without me | Aug 23 2023 22:05 utc | 176

All the Prighozin stuff should be on the Open Thread, oh well.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Aug 23 2023 22:06 utc | 177

THe war in Ukraine is about the future of democracy versus tyranny. If Russia is allowed to take the oil and gas resources that belong to Ukraine they will continue to invade neighboring countries for their gain. Tyranny must be stopped. The free world needs to unite and fight this invasion. It is a war of attrition now, and capitalist economies will rule in this regard. Let’s support Ukraine to win!
Without the Kerch bridge and a land route, Crimea is defenseless. This is doable!
Posted by: MadViking | Aug 23 2023 20:16 utc | 109

You do not know how right you are!!
It is about fighting and destroying the tyrannies of the NAZI few against the peoples of Russian ethnicity who made their home in Ukraine for the past centuries..
It is about destroying the CIA/NSA/MI6 sponsored regime which hounded the legitimate president out of the country at gunpoint..
It is about restoring rule of law to a lawless godless land…
It is about eviscerating NATO and all it stands for…
I could go on, but why bother??
Let the Russians speak…. Let them prevail….
Let Biden, etal. eat humble pie!!
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Aug 23 2023 22:08 utc | 178

THe war in Ukraine is about the future of democracy versus tyranny. If Russia is allowed to take the oil and gas resources that belong to Ukraine they will continue to invade neighboring countries for their gain. Tyranny must be stopped. The free world needs to unite and fight this invasion. It is a war of attrition now, and capitalist economies will rule in this regard. Let’s support Ukraine to win!
Without the Kerch bridge and a land route, Crimea is defenseless. This is doable!
Posted by: MadViking | Aug 23 2023 20:16 utc | 109

You do not know how right you are!!
It is about fighting and destroying the tyrannies of the NAZI few against the peoples of Russian ethnicity who made their home in Ukraine for the past centuries..
It is about destroying the CIA/NSA/MI6 sponsored regime which hounded the legitimate president out of the country at gunpoint..
It is about restoring rule of law to a lawless godless land…
It is about eviscerating NATO and all it stands for…
I could go on, but why bother??
Let the Russians speak…. Let them prevail….
Let Biden, etal. eat humble pie!!
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Aug 23 2023 22:08 utc | 179

What better way to distract attention away from BRICS news around the west, than the downing of Prigozhins plane. It had to be somethig BIG to displace BRICS.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Aug 23 2023 22:09 utc | 180

What better way to distract attention away from BRICS news around the west, than the downing of Prigozhins plane. It had to be somethig BIG to displace BRICS.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Aug 23 2023 22:09 utc | 181

Posted by: Colin | Aug 23 2023 21:39 utc | 166
I’ve worked in both sectors and the State sector is infinitely more wasteful than the private sector, in my experience. In fact, due to my experiences, on a course transitioning from one to the other my university added a module to help private sector workers transition more smoothly, due to the difference in cultural webs.
In the state sector, workers have little to no understanding of cost, managers are hardly any better. In the private sectors I’ve worked in the bottom line is always present, and as a manager one of my primary goals was to educate my staff about unnecessary wastage. As for mercenaries, in my experience, they tend to be very aware of money, far more so than the military. Priggy more than likely was running a scam where phantom soldiers were recruited and conveniently then killed in action, all those who benefited took their cut. He was under an investigation and more than likely living on borrowed time, especially after his Heisenberg coup attempt.

Posted by: Milites | Aug 23 2023 22:11 utc | 182

Ed4 @ 173

At the speed things are going Bulgarian Navy will commission their new build and become the largest Navy on the Black Sea 🙂

That’s actually all too true.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Aug 23 2023 22:11 utc | 183

@ Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Aug 23 2023 17:20 utc | 11
What part of “not agreement capable” are you having trouble with?
Now I do not want to claim to know the future and things could change, but the current trajectory is Ukraine will not yield until it has not other option and at that point there is not a lot to discuss – terms of surrender.
In the meantime, I am sure that Ukraine is free to stop shooting.

Posted by: jared | Aug 23 2023 22:14 utc | 184

Posted by: Colin | Aug 23 2023 21:39 utc | 166
I’ve worked in both sectors and the State sector is infinitely more wasteful than the private sector, in my experience. In fact, due to my experiences, on a course transitioning from one to the other my university added a module to help private sector workers transition more smoothly, due to the difference in cultural webs.
In the state sector, workers have little to no understanding of cost, managers are hardly any better. In the private sectors I’ve worked in the bottom line is always present, and as a manager one of my primary goals was to educate my staff about unnecessary wastage. As for mercenaries, in my experience, they tend to be very aware of money, far more so than the military. Priggy more than likely was running a scam where phantom soldiers were recruited and conveniently then killed in action, all those who benefited took their cut. He was under an investigation and more than likely living on borrowed time, especially after his Heisenberg coup attempt.
I like this take from someone with sources in Peter, as he calls it.
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2023/08/23/multiple-reports-of-yevgeny-prigozhin-killed-in-plane-crash-returning-to-st-pete-from-moscow/#more-250209
Today, Russian media are stating that Prigozhin was killed in a plane crash after a series of meetings in Moscow, upon a return flight to Peter. Perhaps, or perhaps not. Given the nature of a very specific background in/around the issue(s) of Wagner and Prigozhin, and with both the Russian and USA geopolitical overlays as context, here are some possible considerations:
♦ Prigozhin completed his meetings in Moscow and was heading home to Peter when an unfortunate accident led to his plane crashing.
♦ Prigozhin completed his meetings in Moscow and was heading home to Peter when the Russian military leaders decided to kill him.
♦ Prigozhin completed his meetings in Moscow and was detained by Putin allies, then the return flight destroyed to disappear him.
♦ Prigozhin completed his meetings in Moscow and was returning to Peter when a successful retaliatory CIA operation killed him.
♦ Prigozhin completed his meetings in Moscow and organizing a defensive Wagner operation against NATO under the auspices of his death.
♦ Prigozhin completed his meetings in Moscow and is now very much alive and retired with no one looking for him.
♦ Prigozhin was never in Moscow and is very much alive and retired with no one looking for him. √
I’m sure the funeral will be quite superb.

Posted by: Milites | Aug 23 2023 22:17 utc | 185

Posted by: zeke2u | Aug 23 2023 22:01 utc | 178
What’s the Russian equivalent for ‘drinking the Kool-Aid’?

Posted by: Milites | Aug 23 2023 22:22 utc | 186

“Exactly. Nobody in Kiev, much less in Washington, cares what Ukrainians think, as long as the army continues to fight.
This “just the tip” style of warfare is only getting good people killed.
Posted by: Feral Finster | Aug 23 2023 20:59 utc | 142
Worth repeating.
Then there is Germany’s Baerbock, a “GREEN” Party member, no less, who declared she had made a promise to support Ukraine and she didn’t care what the German public / voters think.
Shades of the past wot? Of all the peoples of the world, I find trying to reconcile with the Germans one of, if not the most challenging. Baerbock’s comments exemplify my concerns about German political leadership and the historical tendency of Germans to gravitate toward the Baerbock type who boldly go about telling them what to believe in, and who they should follow.
Some wise sage once said, Germans gravitate toward STRONG leaders who tell them what to do. The French on the other hand don’t want to be told what to do, and reject those that try to do that. Or words to that effect.
Hopefully Baerbock’s and and Sgt. Scholz time in office will be a brief interlude and Germany will return to it’s previous positions based on practical and realistic policy.
The German people, like so many others must look to the future. They have so many strengths they can bring to the table, and I hope they reject, absolutely, the ever so slightly veiled hatred that lies in the bosom of the likes of Baerbok. She is not a uniter, she is however, imho, a divider.

Posted by: bubbles | Aug 23 2023 22:23 utc | 187

” Perhaps the only thing required is that you don’t claim that other people have a point of view that they never had.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 23 2023 22:01 utc | 177 ”
Why the hostility ?
Please re-read the comments here from the days around the time of the “coup”, Many were saying it wasnt a real one.

Posted by: Shocked | Aug 23 2023 22:24 utc | 188

I would say the needle has been nudged in direction of offensive and manhunt – when opportunity is ripe.

Posted by: jared | Aug 23 2023 22:24 utc | 189

These idiots do the same thing every time. I would expect a massive attack on Bakhmut in the next two days. They announce the opposite of what they are about to do every single time.
Bakhmut/Solidar had a massive stockpile of weapons and supplies to be used in the offensive, they had to defend it with everything they had.

Posted by: OohCanada | Aug 23 2023 22:29 utc | 190

Then there’s young bucks who demand absolutism so they can grasp something to hold on to. That, imho isn’t so much a bad thing, as it’s just part of the journey. Do you mind sharing your age range? 10 year scale will do fine if you don’t mind.
Posted by: bubbles | Aug 23 2023 20:17 utc | 110
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Sorry bubbles, that information is none of your business.
Posted by: Ed | Aug 23 2023 21:16 utc | 153
I didn’t think that was so much of an ask Ed? Why are you so reluctant to provide an answer to such a meager request? How do you expect readers to assess your inputs in a positive manner if you refuse such a simple request that doesn’t reveal anything more that you age ‘range’?

Posted by: bubbles | Aug 23 2023 22:30 utc | 191

I think given the time it took, Prig got a fair trial. He even appeared before Putin to plead his case. I just wonder who gets the private army and the concessions business. Why was he going to St. Petersburg? I wonder who is there.

Posted by: JimG | Aug 23 2023 22:31 utc | 192

Posted by: Milites | Aug 23 2023 22:17 utc | 187
Mercenary companies do pay a lot of attention to grabbing money, which leads them to be very wasteful of the country’s money, as Putin pointed out.
Obviously, the presence or absence of profits does not mean that they are efficient or else.
How about just the opposite, that the profit motive is one of the reasons for its wastefulness.
Just as the for-profit purpose of private insurers causes medicare advantage to be less efficient than state-owned medicare.
Of course, you want to say it’s because of corruption. Indeed, one of the purposes of military privatization is precisely to facilitate corruption. That’s why privatization doesn’t reduce, but increases, the problem of corruption.

Posted by: Colin | Aug 23 2023 22:33 utc | 193

Richard Feynman, if my memory is correct, said something like science progresses one death at a time. Sad.
Posted by: oracle | Aug 23 2023 17:34 utc | 26

I believe it was a different physicist, Max Planck, who wrote to the effect that a new scientific concept gets widely accepted not because current scientists perceive its validity, but because they are eventually replaced by a generation that grew up with the concept.

Posted by: David Levin | Aug 23 2023 22:34 utc | 194

Posted by: Shocked | Aug 23 2023 22:24 utc | 190
Because I always thought it was a coup and celebrated his death most prominently here.

Posted by: Colin | Aug 23 2023 22:34 utc | 195

I heard somewhere on Twitter that Prigozhin wouldn’t take the hint to stay in the background and during the African summit, he was having meetings with all kinds of African leaders. Some say that this would have taken the spotlight off of Lavrov and Putin’s efforts and may have re-ignited the feud against the Wagner chief.

Posted by: Manage without me | Aug 23 2023 22:49 utc | 196

He is blocking access to the Black Sea for any Russian warships, isn’t he?
Posted by: Ed4 | Aug 23 2023 21:59 utc | 173
Not exactly. War ships are allowed to enter the Black Sea if their home port is located there.
Russian war ships could get in, but not back out.
Most of NATO cannot even get in (which annoyed the US at the start of this war).

Posted by: Martina | Aug 23 2023 22:54 utc | 197

I think Mr Putin , seeing the cobweb flimsy accusations of child abduction by Biden Inc. has decided that Wagner would give the teenage octogenarian wokeys much more to chew on and has therefore asked Prigozhin to kudly disappear from.public view, and public accountability. The main man will have travelled in the second plane.
His political ambitions may now be zero, but they were zero anyway.
MH 170 Two can play at that game.
I don’t believe any body was shot down.

Posted by: Giyane | Aug 23 2023 22:56 utc | 198

From telegram channel Slavyangrad:
– the aircraft lost 100 knots of speed and managed to regain it prior to the crash even while gaining in altitude according to flight radar details

Posted by: Manage without me | Aug 23 2023 22:59 utc | 199

A post by Grey Zone, a Wagner-connected social media channel, claimed Russian anti-aircraft defences had shot down the plane. It said that residents heard “two bursts of characteristic air defense fire” before the crash. “This is confirmed by inversion traces in the sky in one of the videos,” it added. Mash, a news outlet on social media app Telegram, said locals had heard two loud bangs before the crash.

Posted by: Manage without me | Aug 23 2023 23:01 utc | 200