Quod Licet Iovi … – Moon of Alabama

August 7, 2023

Quod Licet Iovi …

The BBC reported on August 22, 2022:

Taiwan: Two US warships sail through strait

Two US warships are passing through the Taiwan Strait, the US Navy has announced.
…
Washington says its two guided-missile cruisers – the USS Antietam and the USS Chancellorsville – are demonstrating freedom of navigation through international waters.
…
Beijing views such actions as provocative and maintains that the island of Taiwan is an integral part of Chinese territory.

On Sunday, its military said it was monitoring the two vessels' progress, maintaining a high alert, and was ready to defeat any provocation, Reuters news agency reports.

The US Navy said in a statement that the transit through the Taiwan Strait demonstrated the "United States' commitment to a free and open Indo-Pacific".

The WSJ on August 6, 2023:

Russia and China Sent Large Naval Patrol Near Alaska

A combined Russian and Chinese naval force patrolled near the coast of Alaska last week in what U.S. experts said appeared to be the largest such flotilla to approach American shores.

Eleven Russian and Chinese ships steamed close to the Aleutian Islands, according to U.S. officials. The ships, which never entered U.S. territorial waters and have since left, were shadowed by four U.S. destroyers and P-8 Poseidon aircraft.

“It is a historical first,” said Brent Sadler, a senior research fellow at the Heritage Foundation and a retired Navy captain. “Given the context of the war in Ukraine and tensions around Taiwan, this move is highly provocative.”
…
Sen. Dan Sullivan of Alaska, a Republican member of the Senate Armed Services Committee, said the patrol was a reminder that the U.S. has entered “a new era of authoritarian aggression” and applauded the robust U.S. response.

Posted by on August 7, 2023 at 13:29 UTC | Permalink

Comments

The red line is: China is a Unity, a State with 2 government systems, but that anyone dire to break, in any case. The Chinese question belong to the Chinese.
One Red and Clear Red Line: Do not Mess with My People.

Posted by: L4d8r1t | Aug 7 2023 22:22 utc | 101

From June 2021, in the Craig Murray blog …
Warmongering British Actions in the Black Sea
Link is to an item by Murray about HMS Defender deliberately and blatantly breaking a number of laws during its voyage near Crimea.
In it, Murray quotes the “definition of innocent passage in Article 19 of the UN Convention on the Law of the Sea”.

Posted by: Cynic | Aug 7 2023 22:53 utc | 102

Neal @87, can you tell me which paragraph in article 38 that is stated? I’m not seeing it.

Posted by: Scuppers | Aug 7 2023 23:04 utc | 103

What is the definition of a Strait?
Sure, the maps say the Taiwan Straits is a strait, but then what if another country calls it the Taiwan Sea? Could Britain change the name of the Irish Sea to the Irish Strait, and would that give them the right to limit Russian warships transiting?
Posted by: Neal | Aug 7 2023 21:17 utc | 93
—————————————————-
Good question, I do not claim to be an expert on the issue. So, I consulted the National Geographic web site, and this is what I got:
A strait is a narrow body of water that connects two larger bodies of water. It may be formed by a fracture in an isthmus, a narrow body of land that connects two bodies of water.
Tectonic shifts can lead to straits like this. One strait that was formed by tectonic activity is the Strait of Gibraltar, the only link between the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. The Strait of Gibraltar is actually closing, as the African tectonic plate slides north. In a few thousand years, the Strait of Gibraltar will be the Isthmus of Gibraltar, and the Mediterranean will be a large, salty, inland sea.

Posted by: Ed | Aug 7 2023 23:39 utc | 104

Thousands of US troops arrive in Persian Gulf in latest escalation with Iran
https://new.thecradle.co/articles/thousands-of-us-troops-arrive-in-persian-gulf-in-latest-escalation-with-iran

Posted by: ChasMark | Aug 7 2023 23:41 utc | 105

2 movies for Reflection.
1. *Oppenheimer”
2. “Sound of Freedom”
All your culture is condensed in these 2 expressions of your soul.
Your colorway.
Not my color, in any case.

Posted by: L4d8r1t | Aug 7 2023 23:48 utc | 106

Neal @87, can you tell me which paragraph in article 38 that is stated? I’m not seeing it.
Posted by: Scuppers | Aug 7 2023 23:04 utc | 102
———————————————————-
Sure Neal @ 87. Hear it is, there is also another one at the bottom of Plan-III. But I will let you look that one up yourself, or you can look at my comments on the previous page.
Article 38. Right of transit passage
1. In straits referred to in article 37, all ships and aircraft enjoy the right of transit passage, which shall not be impeded; EXCEPT that, if the strait is formed by an island of a State bordering the strait and its mainland, [ Neal this would be Tiawan and Main land China] transit passage shall not apply IF THERE EXIST SEAWARD OF THE ISLAND A ROUTETHROUGH THE HIGH SEAS or through an exclusive economic zone of similar convenience with respect to navigational and hydrographical characteristics.

Posted by: Ed | Aug 7 2023 23:55 utc | 107

Article 45. Innocent passage
1. The regime of innocent passage, in accordance with Part 11, section 3, shall apply in straits used for international navigation:
(a) excluded from the application of the regime of transit passage under article 38, paragraph 1; or
(b) between a part of the high seas or an exclusive economic zone and the territorial sea of a foreign State.
2. There shall be no suspension of innocent passage through such straits.
———————————————————–
I wonder if a nuclear armed WAR SHIP passing through a Strait, such as the Tiawan straits, when it could just as easily go around the island on the seaward side, only for the purpose of agitating Mainland China, is an Innocent Passage?
Posted by: Ed | Aug 7 2023 20:26 utc | 89
—————————————————
Neal @87, can you tell me which paragraph in article 38 that is stated? I’m not seeing it.
For you Neal at 87. What do you think?

Posted by: Ed | Aug 8 2023 0:02 utc | 108

Literally “do as I say, not as I do” in action.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Aug 8 2023 0:04 utc | 109

Sea mines have a spectacular future.
Time to invest in next generation sea mines. Mishaps involving unintended sea mine dispersion in key NATO seas can be a game changer!

Posted by: Jason | Aug 8 2023 0:08 utc | 110

China will eventually sink one of these freedom of navigation ships , their patience will run out. Easy enough to clog the straight with tankers or such usa seems to ram into them without much help

Posted by: hankster | Aug 8 2023 0:25 utc | 111

ChasMark | Aug 7 2023 23:41 utc | 104
here is a broader report on the us navy’s deployments for the iranian exerises, as well reporting the aircraft carrier Ford is near the bosporus because they can charge into the black sea….
the two landing ships carry the 26 marine expeditionary unit, may be 1000 rifleman, support aircraft and vehicles….
3 arleigh burke destroyers (aegis and cruise missiles) of the ford carrier group are escorting the landing ships…
don’t worry about the carrier ford it is under protection of usaf jets flying out of greece and turkey.
https://news.usni.org/2023/07/27/uss-bataan-uss-carter-hall-in-mediterranean-on-way-to-middle-east
us media not covering!

Posted by: paddy | Aug 8 2023 0:25 utc | 112

95 Yes the Taiwan politics is interesting. Two distinct parties split on the issue have emerged. The pro USA and unification party. Pro war USA is the incumbent but not so popular as things get real, i guess its down to dominion to tally the votes

Posted by: hankster | Aug 8 2023 0:28 utc | 113

@111
i must be getting old
https://greekreporter.com/2023/07/28/uss-gerald-r-ford-aircraft-carrier-athens/
uss gerald ford is the first of new class of us navy nuclear fleet carriers, on it first real deployment the queen of celays, compromised technical performance and cost overruns! it is in mediteeranian with two other us navy nuclear carriers to show off keeping sealanes open for the ukratani nazis!
how could i type carrier ford and not relate the high cost and low performance!

Posted by: paddy | Aug 8 2023 0:45 utc | 114

Let’s see, how many fronts do we have in play now? Ukraine, Taiwan, Iran, Syria (occupied by US so Turkey can steal Syria’s oil), Niger, Mali… let’s just say all of Africa, Belarus, Pakistan, Venezuela, Cuba, and Mexico is being taken over by the Chinese I hear – and what’s going on with Trump? Wheels seem to be coming off. I hope it doesn’t all get out of control.
Posted by: JimG | Aug 7 2023 14:32 utc | 11
Yep. I woke up this week and have been saying it since: fact is, the ‘elephant in the room’ is: the USA is at war with the WORLD.
The USA hates everyone and everything. It has no friends and doesn’t even have an understanding of the concept.
I long thought the 350 million Americans were comatose to allow the cabal to run their country in such an amazingly corrupt and stupid and wicked way.
I now see we are ALL – all over the world – comatose not to realise that simply awesome truth: the USA hates us all. Hates everything. Is at war with the very idea of freedom, progress, truth, honesty…

Posted by: arthur brogard | Aug 8 2023 0:56 utc | 115

This is more than double standard and hypocrisy on the US and its media. Taiwan Straits and the sea near Alaska are two different concepts under UNCLOS. Taiwan Straits is not even ‘international waters’ by any standard definition, and China has much more rights in the area.

Posted by: d dan | Aug 8 2023 1:48 utc | 116

Blessed are the poor in spirit because their is the kingdom of heaven.
Translation:
Those who understand their essence, (heaven), are those who are listening to their soul (Kingdom), being in silence and quiet (Poor), in their meditation (Spirit).

Posted by: L4d8r1t | Aug 8 2023 2:00 utc | 117

Deliberately forgotten history:
“From May through September 1939, the Soviet Union and Japan waged hard-fought battles on the wind-swept deserts along the border of eastern Mongolia. Antagonism ran deep. The decline of the Chinese empire had whetted the territorial appetites of its neighbors, and the expanding empires of Russia and Japan collided in Korea and Manchuria.”
“Japan resumed its imperial march in 1931 with the occupation of Manchuria and the establishment of the puppet state of Manchukuo. In 1937, the Japanese invaded China, seizing Shanghai and Nanking. That, along with the Anti-Comintern Pact signed in 1936 between Germany and Japan, alarmed the Soviet Union. A treaty concluded between Josef Stalin and Chiang Kai-shek’s Kuomintang government in 1937 furnished Soviet financial and military aid to the Chinese. About 450 Soviet pilots and technicians and 225 Soviet warplanes were soon sent to China.”
https://www.historynet.com/world-war-ii-soviet-and-japanese-forces-battle-at-khalkhin-gol/

Posted by: Antonym | Aug 8 2023 2:21 utc | 118

Sorry my end bold didn’t work after “1939” ..

Posted by: Antonym | Aug 8 2023 2:22 utc | 119

Naval mines, anti personnel mines including cluster bombs and cheap kamikaze drones are the future of warfare.
Build them, stock them and use them generously and the tide of war will turn in your favour.
Their targets cost much more than them.

Posted by: Jason | Aug 8 2023 2:39 utc | 120

@106 Ed, if the US Navy insists that it can sail through the Taiwan Strait and not around the seaward side of that island under the “freedom of navigation” then the Russians and the Chinese navies should have no problem justifying sailing between two islands in the Aleutian Island chain.
If the USA then screams “But that’s my territorial water!” then the Chinese can politely cough and say “Taiwan, dude”.
And if Washington screams “Hey! Go around instead!!!” then Moscow can politely say “Taiwan, dude”.
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander: the US Navy has *no* right to freedom of navigation in the water between the Chinese mainland and the province of Taiwan when there is an equally-accessible path on the seaward side of that island.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Aug 8 2023 2:59 utc | 121

Posted by: paddy | Aug 8 2023 0:25 utc | 111
https://news.usni.org/2023/07/27/uss-bataan-uss-carter-hall-in-mediterranean-on-way-to-middle-east
us media not covering! <= After Iran bottoms out several ships the media will be screaming at peak volume.

Posted by: snake | Aug 8 2023 3:16 utc | 122

@ Yeah, Right | Aug 8 2023 2:59 utc | 120
That is what an unbiased AI will answer too: 3 or 12 nautical miles territorial waters for all nations.

Posted by: Antonym | Aug 8 2023 3:41 utc | 123

What would happen if these two ships got sunk and China and Russia denied eny envolvment suggesting the US must of sunk their own ships.
Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 7 2023 18:57 utc | 67
good one.

Posted by: polarbear4 | Aug 8 2023 4:39 utc | 124

What’s good for the goose is good for the gander: the US Navy has *no* right to freedom of navigation in the water between the Chinese mainland and the province of Taiwan when there is an equally-accessible path on the seaward side of that island.
Posted by: Yeah, Right | Aug 8 2023 2:59 utc | 120
Yeah! Pretty much sums up my point of view. Here’s the thing. The US is, as usual, trying to have it both ways. They don’t want to be tied down by a treaty, but they want the benefits of a treaty. So the US helps draft the UNCLOS treaty, but then doesn’t ratify it. And then references the UNCLOS treaty constantly, and expects all of the signatories to it to uphold it, but then flirts around it at all times.
Either the US subscribes to the treaty and enjoys the benefits of it and protections of it, or it doesn’t and then can’t complain that others don’t recognize it’s territorial waters as envisaged under UNCLOS. Now, the US happens to have the most powerful navy in the world, but I don’t think that will last much longer. Then it’s at the mercy of stronger naval powers, which is the game that it’s been playing as the strongest naval power. Again; a Hobbesian world.
The US can join the community of world powers and enjoy the benefits of collective security, or it can set itself against that community, throw collective humanity into a state of nature, and have non stop conflict and war as the world community asserts it’s natural right of self preservation, protection and right to life.
UNCOLS is just one facet of this Hobbesian dilemma that the US has brought about. A canary in a coal mine, the tip of the iceberg…pick your analogy; but the US is at least consistent in its pathology. It wants to skirt the line and sit on the fence, having the best of both. But one needs to be the apex power to do that, and the US is hollowed out; it aspires to greater heights than its strength allows. It will fail; has failed.

Posted by: Scuppers | Aug 8 2023 4:40 utc | 125

Given the state of missile/drone technology, driving these ships through the strait seems not much different than having Biden personally drive a pedal boat through the strait. That is, military power is not being demonstrated. Rather, it’s more like a dare: Go ahead and blow it up, but there will (we claim) be hell to pay if you do.

Posted by: Boris Badenov | Aug 8 2023 4:45 utc | 126

addendum to what I posted above: Either the US subscribes to the treaty and enjoys the benefits of it and protections of it, or it doesn’t and then can’t complain that others don’t recognize it’s territorial waters as envisaged under UNCLOS. Now, the US happens to have the most powerful navy in the world, but I don’t think that will last much longer. Then it’s at the mercy of stronger naval powers, which is the game that it’s been playing as the strongest naval power. Again; a Hobbesian world.
It’s just a matter of time, and not too much longer I think, before the Chinese call the US’ bluff and sink some of their ships. Then it’s game on, and the US loses it’s pacific fleet. They’ll threaten nuclear strikes, and the Chinese will back off, but the US fleet will be gone, and the US will retreat into itself and become an isolated island nation, left to deal with the defeat and domestic issues. That’s how I see this playing out.

Posted by: Scuppers | Aug 8 2023 4:53 utc | 127

The strait of Taiwan in 68 nautical miles wide minimum. Minus 2 x 3 nmi leaving 62 nmi for all international shipping.
The gap between Russian and US Aleutian islands is 180 nmi, so that leaves 174 nmi for international.
The English Channel is 18 nmi at its narrowest, so leaves 12 nmi for all others. Which European nation asks others to go around the whole UK to reach the Baltic coming from the south?

Posted by: Antonym | Aug 8 2023 4:54 utc | 128

Which European nation asks others to go around the whole UK to reach the Baltic coming from the south?
Posted by: Antonym | Aug 8 2023 4:54 utc | 126
read the UNCLOS treaty and you’ll have your answer.

Posted by: Scuppers | Aug 8 2023 4:57 utc | 129

All,
you either have UNCLOS, or you have Hobbes. You either have New Start, or you have Hobbes. You either have the treaty of Conventional Forces in Europe, or you have Hobbes. You either have the UN charter and adherence to it, or you have Hobbes. I do not want to countenance a world where, given the power and effectiveness of modern weaponry and ISR, a Hobbesian world holds sway. International law MUST become a real thing. It’s the only way forward for human civilization.

Posted by: Scuppers | Aug 8 2023 5:05 utc | 130

@ Scuppers | Aug 8 2023 4:57 utc | 127
With 12 nmi territorial waters the English channel could be closed for all except UK, France and Belgium. Forget Gibraltar, entry to the Baltic or Black Sea. Panama channel?
The Taiwan strait would keep an international gap and even more will the Aleutian islands as they are wide enough, whatever the CCP or MICIMATT says.
Thinking unbiased is hard for human minds, as our emotions (and national egos) color our opinions. Enter pure AI for this kind of human judicial stuff.

Posted by: Antonym | Aug 8 2023 5:17 utc | 131

As far as i know China Russia isnt contesting the UK’s sovereignty…
Comparing apples and pears.
Thats the whole benifit of having binding treatises a plus not a minus.
Americas actions are dont do as we do, do as we say.
Thats not aceptable.

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 8 2023 5:43 utc | 132

Posted by: Antonym | Aug 8 2023 5:56 utc | 133

With 12 nmi territorial waters the English channel could be closed for all except UK, France and Belgium. Forget Gibraltar, entry to the Baltic or Black Sea. Panama channel?
Posted by: Antonym | Aug 8 2023 5:17 utc | 129
No it cannot. Read the UNCLOS treaty, which all those countries are signatories to.

Posted by: Scuppers | Aug 8 2023 6:18 utc | 134

Yes, only the CCP is contesting ROC sovereignty, as they see that as the only competition for the Heavenly Mandate.
The issue here is long sea distance between two parts of even the same country. There are plenty of similar cases where international shipping happens. For example the Malaccan straits in Malaysia, or the “Greek” Aegean sea.
Posted by: Antonym | Aug 8 2023 5:56 utc | 131
You are again here wrong. The US and China signed several treaties wherein the US agreed that there is only 1 China and Taiwan is not a recognized sovereign country. The US either holds to the treaties, or abrogates them.
The issue is not long sea distance between the two parts. It is the UNCLOS treaty and distance and the 12 mile limit have nothing to do with it. Again, look at the relevant parts of the treaty, as Ed posted, it’s only 2 paragraphs and won’t take you long to read. Otherwise, you’re writing nonsense.

Posted by: Scuppers | Aug 8 2023 6:26 utc | 135

@ Antonym.
1. In straits referred to in article 37, all ships and aircraft enjoy the right of transit passage, which shall not be impeded; except that, if the strait is formed by an island of a State bordering the strait and its mainland, transit passage shall not apply if there exists seaward of the island a route through the high seas or through an exclusive economic zone of similar convenience with respect to navigational and hydrographical characteristics.
And just to elaborate, where in the above paragraph does it talk about the 12 mile limit? This is verbatim from the UNCLOS treaty. Please point to the phrase that talks about a 12 mile limit and distance. Do you see it? I don’t. Details matter. And this is what countries signed on to.

Posted by: Scuppers | Aug 8 2023 7:06 utc | 136

Just for everyone’s edification, here: the distance from Kinmen (Jinmen)—Taiwan’s innermost island within the strait—to mainland China (Fujian Province) is much less than 12 nautical miles. The island is so close (only a kilometer, in some spots) that any strong swimmer can pretty easily make it across.Jinmen is an archipelago that runs across the entire strait, right up to Taiwan’s main island of Formosa.
That makes any argument for “innocent navigation” of the strait based upon arguments over “territorial waters” entirely moot. Since Taiwan’s territorial claims essentially overlap China’s, the entire strait is clearly China’s legally defined territory.

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Aug 8 2023 7:22 utc | 137

On the subject of people who generate obscene amounts of hypocrisy along with industrial-strength chutzpah, did anyone notice that the U.S. decided to send Victoria Nuland to instantly sort out the mess in Niger?
Spoiler alert: the Malian government were unimpressed.

Posted by: MFB | Aug 8 2023 7:53 utc | 138

Pacifica Advocate @ 135
Thanks for that clarity,
Your post made me laugh, a play on words, were you aware of it ? …
Edifacation… Ed (our commenter…Eduction. Brilliant. He deserves that praise.
Coining the term weve been ‘Edifacted’ or perhaps Edified. ha ha.
———–
More seareous this topic becomes much more important when set in its presant day context of geopolitics and conflict. Americas hot wars all round the globe. Direct or using proxys. Plus US attempts to subvert govenments or opersition partys. Look at Pakistan right now.or Niger.
Then thers the economic domination not least by it sanctioning Russia and intimidating others to stop trading. Add just pure US coruption and its efects. We see this China and Russia see this.
Context is everything. So this discusion takes place being aware of its preasant place in this overall picture.

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 8 2023 8:06 utc | 139

And not in isolation

Posted by: Mark2 | Aug 8 2023 8:16 utc | 140

136 Nuland suspended USA aid to NIger. Niger responded by saying better spend it on a weight loss program for Nuland. now thats a response we dont hear diplomats say much

Posted by: hankster | Aug 8 2023 8:25 utc | 141

@ Pacifica Advocate | Aug 8 2023 7:22 utc | 135
Before programs like Google Earth existed you could spout such untruths without challenge: not any more.
The distance between the two Taiwanese island groups Kinmen and Penghu is 74 nmi, leaving plenty of space for international travel. Your swimmer between Kinmen and mainland China is a deliberate but pointless strawman for anyone looking at that map.
@ Scuppers | Aug 8 2023 6:18 utc | 132
That old UNCLOS treaty doesn’t stand logical scrutiny. Also was not signed by a number of countries including the US, Türkiye, Syria, Israel, Venezuela, Peru etc. Not ratified by Iran, Colombia, UAE etc.
Pure AI would obliterate it.

Posted by: Antonym | Aug 8 2023 9:08 utc | 142

Hankster @ 139:
Niger could have started the weight loss program for the Cookie Monster by putting her in jail. She’ll lose weight sure enough on the daily rations of the average Nigerien citizen.

Posted by: Jen | Aug 8 2023 9:24 utc | 143

Posted by: arthur brogard | Aug 8 2023 0:56 utc | 114
The US just see everybody as native Indians and the neoconservatives and neoliberals create the reservations. The global gilded age and the robber barons.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Aug 8 2023 9:41 utc | 144

From b’s post: Eleven Russian and Chinese ships steamed close to the Aleutian Islands, according to U.S. officials.
Most of the Aleutian Islands belong to the U.S. state of Alaska, but some some belong to the Russian federal subject of Kamchatka Krai. So it’s not clear from the article whether Russians and Chinese navy were sailing close to Russian territory or close to US territory. Just a guess: if the Aleutian Island in question was Alaskan, the article would have said so.

Posted by: Passerby | Aug 8 2023 9:53 utc | 145

Antonym | Aug 8 2023 9:08 utc | 140
Before programs like Google Earth existed you could spout such untruths without challenge: not any more.
The distance between the two Taiwanese island groups Kinmen and Penghu is 74 nmi, leaving plenty of space for international travel. Your swimmer between Kinmen and mainland China is a deliberate but pointless strawman for anyone looking at that map.

You are spouting utter falsehoods, and you know it. Shame on you.
https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1L1vrR1lITwiaj_skTAvab6wJYoZjxJ5a&ll=24.577871809353194%2C118.06751493435733&z=9

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Aug 8 2023 10:11 utc | 146

I’m old enough to remember the Tonkin Gulf Incident.
The childish belligerence of the U$A never changes.

Posted by: Engineer-John | Aug 8 2023 11:10 utc | 147

“136 Nuland suspended USA aid to NIger. Niger responded by saying better spend it on a weight loss program for Nuland. now thats a response we dont hear diplomats say much
Posted by: hankster | Aug 8 2023 8:25 utc | 139”
Nice one hankster !
I have to wonder how all that US aid to Niger was accounted for previously.
No doubt half of it ended up in the pockets of the politicians that U$A needed to have bought-and-paid for.
That’s how the U$A always operates.
Look at Ukraine.
Look at Serbia
Need I say more !
Oh … One more … Look at UK

Posted by: Engineer-John | Aug 8 2023 11:15 utc | 148

If the Chinese wanted to piss BBC off they would sail though the channel after arming Argentina with ship killing missiles.

Posted by: ATM | Aug 8 2023 12:20 utc | 149

@ Posted by: arthur brogard | Aug 8 2023 0:56 utc | 114
The US was planned and invented specifically for the purpose of enslaving the whole world, including the ancestral lands of these lured to its supposed ‘freedoms’ and ‘riches’.
It started as a slave colony. And followed the end of the limits of Portuguese/Spanish/Dutch conquests.
The target has always been the actual ‘rich’ lands of the East and South.
It has just had its time as the Reserve Currency for the last century.
The World , She turns.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Aug 8 2023 12:32 utc | 150

** treaties**
Not worth the paper they are written on. Somewhere down the line they will be broken. With all being ambiguous in the wording.

Posted by: heavymetal101 | Aug 8 2023 12:57 utc | 151

@121 Antonym No, that’s not the point.
The Law of the Sea defines a “strait” as being a narrow body of water connecting two larger bodies of water.
The Law of the Sea further states clearly that when that “strait” lies between a country and one if its islands then there is *NO* right of transit *IF* it is convenient to pass on the seaward side of that Island.
That’s what the treaty says, so that is what the treaty means.
It is simply impossible for the US Navy to claim that it is not convenient for their warships to sail to the eastern side of Taiwan rather than – as they insist on doing – sailing between mainland China and one of its islands.
Clearly that would be a manifestly absurd argument, and it is so absurd that the US Navy doesn’t even pretend otherwise. They simply ignore that Article.
This is not like the English Channel, where it would be very inconvenient to force a warship to sail around Great Britain to get from a Baltic port to a port of call in Portugal or Spain.
It is not like the Strait of Gibraltar, where it would be very inconvenient to insist that any European warship must sail all the way around the Cape of Good Hope to dock at Port Said.
But those two US warships? Honestly, think about it.
Where are they actually coming *from*, and where are they going *to*, and how “inconvenient” is it for them to go to the east of Taiwain to get where they are going?
There is zero reason they can give as to why that would inconvenience those two cruisers, and so the Laws of the Sea say that they should go around Taiwan rather than right royally piss off the Chinese.
Which, of course, is the entire point of their sailing through that strait i.e. it is not to get from *here* to *there* but it is, instead, being done to piss off the Chinese.
Such dragging of their coat-tails is exactly why Article 37 was written in the first place.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Aug 8 2023 12:58 utc | 152

Dire Straights? Money for Nothing?

Posted by: Immaculate deception | Aug 8 2023 13:00 utc | 153

Sorry, Straits. Just woke up.

Posted by: Immaculate deception | Aug 8 2023 13:01 utc | 154

Just to clarify one thing in my previous post: Article 37-38 has Nothing To Do with the 12 nautical mile limit of territorial waters. Neither Article makes the slightest reference to “territorial waters” at all, and so it is a furphy to mention the 12 nautical miles that mark the territorial waters of states.
The Articles say what they say, and so they mean what they say. Nothing more, no less.
And what they say is that ships enjoy a right of transit through a strait to get from one body of water to another body of water **except** where that strait is formed between a mainland and its islands.
The ONLY issue in that situation is one of “convenience”.
Clearly and indisputably, if the strait has on one side a mainland and on the other side an island then there must – by definition – be another body of water on the OTHER side of that island: the side not facing its mainland.
So is it just as convenient to go on that side to get to where you want to go?
Article 38 therefore says that if that is the case then there is no “right of transit” through that strait because – du’oh – a ship can just as easily sail around that island rather than through that strait.
Again, “territorial waters” isn’t part of that equation. “12 nautical miles” is not the measurement that you take.
The measurement that you take is given a name in Article 38, and that name is “convenience”
The US Navy can not claim that it is inconvenient to send its warships to the east of Taiwan to get to, well, where exactly?
Clearly, it can easily do so, and indeed, those two cruisers probably have to go way out of their way to sail through the Taiwan strait.
Article 38. It’s a thing, and it says that under these circumstances the US Navy does not have a legal leg to stand on.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Aug 8 2023 13:16 utc | 155

Dire Straights? Money for Nothing?
Posted by: Immaculate deception | Aug 8 2023 13:00 utc | 151
____
When you think about the second verse of that song, as well as others of theirs (e.g. “Les Boys”), I think “Dire Straights” just about nails it.

Posted by: malenkov | Aug 8 2023 13:22 utc | 156

Just heard reports that Wagner has entered Niger. Hot time in the old town tonight?

Posted by: Immaculate deception | Aug 8 2023 13:36 utc | 157

Just heard reports that Wagner has entered Niger. Hot time in the old town tonight?

Only when ECOWAS decides they want to roll in.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Aug 8 2023 14:06 utc | 158

Look at Serbia
Need I say more !
Oh … One more … Look at UK
Posted by: Engineer-John | Aug 8 2023 11:15 utc | 148
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Yes, say more, and explain why we should “look at Serbia.” It was the US and Nato in 1999 that took Kosova away from Serbia and gave it to the Muslims. The US and NATO lied and said that Serbia was committing atrocities against Muslims, but it was the other way around as the Muslim population became a majority in the Serbian District of Kosova, and started burning the homes of Serbians and driving them out of Kosovo because Serbia would noy declare Kosovo a Muslim district of Serbia.
What the US/NATO said were atrocities were in fact self-defense.

Posted by: Ed | Aug 9 2023 0:05 utc | 159

Boz Scaggs. “Breakdown dead ahead”. It’s only a matter of time. Cheers for the barflies, and not the barf lies. Hahaha.

Posted by: Immaculate deception | Aug 9 2023 1:32 utc | 160

@160 Maybe the US Navy should take inspiration from “Lido Shuffle”

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Aug 9 2023 3:08 utc | 161

If a us navy submarine navigates between the Taiwan & China and hits a sea mount, is that considered an innocent passage?

Posted by: baetis | Aug 9 2023 4:34 utc | 162

This is Amurica’s “Rules-Based International Order” in its essence:
The oh-so-hallowed “rules” apply to thee but not to me.
DoubleSpeak is what the United Snakes of America specializes in.
Or as the Black Belt judoka in Moscow eloquently once stated, America is the Empire of Lies.

Posted by: ak74 | Aug 9 2023 6:37 utc | 163

@102 Cynic, what Murray doesn’t understand is that the British argument is a classic Catch-22.
If Crimea is “merely” Russian-occupied territory then the Laws of the Sea don’t apply at all: what applies is International Humanitarian Law a.k.a. The Laws of War.
And under IHL the territory of Crimea – and the water around it – is legally under the “authority” of the Russian Armed Forces because – du-oh! – if it doesn’t then it isn’t an occupying power. Because – du’oh! – that’s what the definition of an “occupation” actually is.
So the British argument is internally-contradictory: HMS Defender could sail where it did because the Ukrainian government gave them permission to do so, even though BECAUSE Crimea is occupied territory THEN the Ukrainian government no longer possesses the authority to grant that permission.
That was so obvious that the British completely forgot about it when they were coming up with their cockamamie excuse for their provocative nonsense.
If that sounds confusing, then consider this: the US Military overran and occupied Iraq, and nobody thought that this meant that they could sail their warships into Iraqi territorial waters and the US Military had no legal standing to do anything about it.

Posted by: Yeah, Right | Aug 10 2023 8:36 utc | 164

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