"Information Designed To Show ..."
Yesterday CNN published another Russiagate like nonsense story:
Newly declassified US intel claims Russia is laundering propaganda through unwitting Westerners
Russian intelligence is operating a systematic program to launder pro-Kremlin propaganda through private relationships between Russian operatives and unwitting US and western targets, according to newly declassified US intelligence.
Caitlin Johnstone takes it apart:
Another Day, Another CIA Press Release Disguised As News
She concludes:
One of the craziest things happening in our world today is how westerners are being trained to overlook the massive amounts of western propaganda they’re inundated with day in and day out and focus instead on “Russian propaganda”, which has no meaningful existence in the west. In 2017 before RT was shut down in the UK, it accounted for 0.04 percent of the UK’s total TV audience. A New York University study published earlier this year found that the supposed Russian Twitter influence campaign ahead of the 2016 election which dominated headlines for years had had “no measurable impact in changing minds or influencing voter behavior”. An earlier study found that suspected Russian accounts showing up in Facebook’s news feed during that time amounted to “approximately 1 out of 23,000 pieces of content.” A study by Adelaide University found that despite headline after headline warning us about a massive wave of Russian bots manipulating online discourse after the invasion of Ukraine began last year, the overwhelming majority of fake accounts they examined (more than 90 percent) were pro-Ukraine accounts.
Contrast this microscopic smattering of influence with the fact that westerners are continually getting their news reporting from western propaganda outlets which openly publish CIA press releases disguised as news on a regular basis. These people are absolutely telling us the truth when they say we’re under constant bombardment by propaganda and influence operations — they’re just lying about who’s really doing it to us.
CNN was not the only outlet that plugged the stupid CIA press release. The New York Times had it too and its report is a bit more revealing:
Russia Pushes Long-Term Influence Operations Aimed at the U.S. and Europe
Reading through the stupid disinformation stuff one stumbles over this sentence:
[T]he information released by the United States on Friday is designed to show how much deeper Russian influence operations are than those efforts to sow dissent on the internet.
That is quite revealing. The information contained in the CIA release was 'designed' or construed to create a certain propaganda narrative. It wasn't just information that could be found or observed by a reporter but a curated collection of items put together to create a certain effect.
Think about that for a minute and you will recognize that most of the 'news' one reads is made like this.
Someone asserts that there is a need for to create a certain effect. A narrative is thought up that could lead to it. The some bits of facts or rumors are collected, sorted, filtered and then written up until the constructed narrative is thought to be likely to create the desired effect. This is then the declassified product and fed to the media which are willing to distribute such stuff.
The current very long Spiegel story about the U.S. attack on the Nord Stream pipelines is a nice example for such a 'product':
Investigating the Nord Stream Attack - All the Evidence Points To Kyiv (archived)
German politicians are too coward to call out the U.S. for the attack and to discuss the necessary consequences. They need a different narrative.
When an attempt was made to declare that 'Russia did it' the public did not fall for it. Blaming Ukraine is a convenient out. It can later be forgiven because, they will say, Ukraine did what it thought was necessary and only did it because Russia was attacking it.
That is the desired effect of the story. The information in the Spiegel piece was carefully 'designed' to create the appropriate narrative.
That the Spiegel needed 19 named authors to put it out says something about the complexity of such a process. It is still disinformation but on a large scale.
Posted by b on August 26, 2023 at 15:53 UTC | Permalink
next page »Why do we call it 'disinformation'? After all its just fraud and lies.
Posted by: Orgel | Aug 26 2023 16:00 utc | 2
Manufacturing subjects is capital's most important product. Every medium is employed to create the appropriate narrative so subjects respond in the predetermined way.
Strategic Culture Foundation website appears to be blocked.
Posted by: Wilikins | Aug 26 2023 16:07 utc | 3
I love cnn. They are a clear signal of what they want people to think and they represent the interests that stole the election from President Trump in 2021. Jan 6th wasn't an "insurrection " it was run by federal officers trying to get a insurrectiony result, and they've got the eyewitnesses being openly tortured in prison.
And yeah the ukraine project is also a centerpiece of their plans as well, and it's intended to make people keep their heads down, it's not to convince anyone of anything.
The sheer ridiculous of it is a display of power, as is the politically motivated judicial system. To emphasize they can do anything and you'll get hurt if you get in the way.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Aug 26 2023 16:08 utc | 4
Even now us propaganda is extremely successful especially in South Asia
Posted by: A.z | Aug 26 2023 16:10 utc | 5
Strategic Culture Foundation website appears to be blocked.
Posted by: Wilikins | Aug 26 2023 16:07 utc | 3
I believe it is at .su domain now.
Southfront is now at .press. (Southfront.press)
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 26 2023 16:11 utc | 6
thanks b... bang on.. caitlins words are also bang on... i guess they think people are stupid... wasn't it barnem bailey who said something to the effect 'there's a sucker born every minute'....
Posted by: james | Aug 26 2023 16:14 utc | 7
Even now us propaganda is extremely successful especially in South Asia
Posted by: A.z | Aug 26 2023 16:10 utc | 5
The masses will fall for consumerism every time. Even if the advertisement is all lies, they will still buy.
And I have no idea how this can ever be countered. Your average mind does not question what will bring them happiness, but instead continues to pursue what brought them happiness as a child, and, of course, sex.
Posted by: UWDude | Aug 26 2023 16:15 utc | 9
Today all swedish major news outlets, including the public TV, are peddling the same headline saying that a substantial increase of alcoholic intakes have occurred among russian soldiers after the SMO.
Posted by: On the roof | Aug 26 2023 16:16 utc | 10
Here’s a good take on CNN’s role, interestingly it looks like they intend to replay the 2020 playbook, COVID scares and now Russia, Russia, no wonder the Ukrainians are repeating the same failed tactics.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 16:19 utc | 11
Did the CIA say it bore “all the earmarks of a Russian disinformation campaign?”
Posted by: Explorator | Aug 26 2023 16:21 utc | 12
Noam Chomsky has written extensively on manufacturing consent trough the intelligence agencies and the media. His book on the formation and applications of the misinformation program by the US government is worth a read.
Propaganda is too damn effective on the uninformed.
Posted by: Ronnie James | Aug 26 2023 16:40 utc | 13
The German narrative, "Blaming Ukraine is a convenient out," is actually correct when one considers what Empire controls Ukraine. Since 2014, the Outlaw US Empire has owned and controlled Ukraine; so, if Ukraine did it, the only way it could have done it is via the Outlaw US Empire and its assets.
I find there's very little truth being published in Western Media, so I ignore it and spend my valuable time reading media from Russia, China, and elsewhere. As I recall, CNN is the least believable media within the Empire according to polling, while ALL such "major media" is deemed almost as bad by the public. Ergo, the attempt to manipulate public opinion isn't faring well.
What's even spookier than the obvious imperialist propaganda lie is that headlines like these sometimes are forerunners to new legal initiatives and prosecutions domestically.
Russia was clearly chosen as the most convenient international scapegoat after billionaire Trump beat the worst democratic party candidate to ever run in 2016.
With that propaganda initiative they were able to accelerate plans for war on Russia, justify an Orwellian lawfare on Trump and his supporters and anyone to the left of the Democrats and finalize a full intelligence takeover of the democratic party and the news media in the west.
How have the intelligence agencies directed us since then?
Class conflict which had become hugely popular with Bernie was turned to race conflict with the 1619 project and BLM. Inconvenient artists and heterosexual flirting were crushed with me too. A provocative and highly divisive trans movement, hitherto nonexistent in the US, was created seemingly overnight. Essentially all once fringe college campus idpol in the 90s was declared official US policy and culture.
China was made a monster (Trump greatly aided this). Free speech and association were characterized as so dangerous as to require a government/corporate control mechanism and intense intervention. And of course, Ukrainian Nazis were converted into our modern founding fathers, while our actual democratic founding fathers, including one that violently ended slavery, Lincoln, were characterized as Nazis. Oh and anti war movements and figures that were not also anti Russian, were declared pro Putin and pro war.
I think our chosen elite Schumer put it best when he said if you cross the intelligence agencies in American politics they have six ways to Sunday to get you.
Intelligence runs US imperialism on behalf of the billionaire oligarchs in the US. There is no democracy under imperialism. Every elected official militantly tows the intelligence line or they get the Trump treatment now.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 16:43 utc | 15
Roll up! Roll up for the Mystery Jab. The Magical Mystery Jab is waiting to take you away. Apologies to the Beatles.
Posted by: Immaculate deception | Aug 26 2023 16:51 utc | 16
Now you know why if a civil war breaks loose in the US one day should not be a surprise to anyone.
Posted by: AI | Aug 26 2023 16:51 utc | 17
In this new world we find ourselves I wake up each day feeling like I'm the protagonist in my very own dystopian novel. I see no daylight in the long dark tunnel, none at all. The people are broken, ignorant and brainwashed, divided against themselves and unable to defend themselves in any way. I'm glad I am no longer a young man because I would not choose to grow up in this distorted and twisted reality. I read Animal Farm when I was twelve years old and 1984 when I was fourteen. I have been warning this was coming for decades and people would just look at me like I had two heads. Now, they don't look at me at all.....
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Aug 26 2023 16:53 utc | 18
I fear people tell polls they don't trust MSM but nonetheless continue absorbing it, that their source is okay. They're getting something from radio and TV all the time, though, and hear enough to get the general idea: Trump arrest, Russia attack, government says ...
And they never know what has seeped in. Just enough to trigger bits of emotional reaction ...
CNN and NYT. Venal lying vipers, chief purveyors of falsehoods, festering boils on the buttocks of America.
Posted by: Dogtired | Aug 26 2023 17:03 utc | 19
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Aug 26 2023 16:53 utc | 18
You create your own daylight, otherwise they win, and you remind yourself, everyday, that you didn’t fall for the bs. The individual concept of honour is much derided (wonder why?) but I find it a soul saver in these darkening times. I also find that having an internal laugh track, during any interaction with these childish cretins, helps. Final thought, find something creative to do everyday and remember you are in the majority.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 17:11 utc | 20
Just take the pro nazi nonsense spewed by "A Zymurgist" on the replies here:
https://www.arcamax.com/politics/editorialcartoons/afbranco/s-2870233
You'll see what the effect of CNNaganda is like.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Aug 26 2023 17:11 utc | 21
I think it is high time western MSM and entertainment churn out propaganda films for the western sheeple(esp. for western young males) a la how the western hero single-handedly defeated the evil Russians in ukr in preparation for them to be sent to war there. The belle in the movie who would be the love interest needs to be unusually attractive and ukrainian. There would be moral goodies a galore. Saving a child, saving multiple children, donating the last sandwich, taking the bullet, US nation building a la exceptional white-black cooperation
(generally taking the form of white hero initially mildly racist, helped by the black, white hero changing his attitudes or black guy helped by white hero or it may be all black heroism if more black boots are intended to be sent to ukr),
stopping evil russians experimenting on humans, busting illegal confinement cells, while the US is all goody goody, delivering the message US is the saviour, that US is always right and just, that US is morally superior—and lastly wait for the roll of the drums—everything is well and good at home
I have doubts about the last part. May be they will omit that. Doubts doubts. What do you barfies think?
Posted by: AOTP | Aug 26 2023 17:12 utc | 22
Democracy cannot and does not exist in an environment rife with censorship and propaganda.
Censorship and propaganda create totalitarian and authoritarian Governments which are no more democratic than North Korea.
A brainwashed society does not have a free and fair vote.
The US showed us in 2020 that pretending to have an election does not bestow the mantle of a democratic society; a pretend election does the opposite.
The media are responsible for destroying democracy; their power and influence need to be destroyed.
Posted by: CitizenSmith | Aug 26 2023 17:13 utc | 23
It's only a matter of time before the CIA tells The New York Times and The Washington Post to do a story about how Moon of Alabama is Russian propaganda.
Posted by: Monos | Aug 26 2023 17:17 utc | 24
...unwitting Westerners
There's surely no shortage of them, but their assumption that narratives are accepted in the public on an "unwitting" basis demonstrates their contempt of us. But Goldhoarder is quite right: it's projection
Posted by: TheFeebleClone | Aug 26 2023 17:21 utc | 25
CitizenSmith@23
Unless I am mistaken your information regarding life amd freedom in North Korea will have come from the same sources that you say are " responsible for destroying democracy;..."
And of which you add that "...their power and influence need to be destroyed."
james@7 that is PK Barnum of Barnum and Bailey Circuses.
Posted by: bevin | Aug 26 2023 17:24 utc | 26
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 16:43 utc | 15
I think the over-step with Trump’s arrest and the ‘mugshot seen around the world’ is probably the moment the plates begin to shift, after much creaking and groaning and promises of earthquakes that never came. The black communities response will be critical, and if this guys message starts to find fertile ground Lord knows where it may end up.
Warning for people of a delicate disposition salty language ahead.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 17:24 utc | 27
First post. This is a great site, thank you. In regard to the article written by Maria Zakharova about DU in Serbia, she was wrong on blaming the Italian Military for the DU shelling during the NATO intervention. Italian Army did not have DU munitions. The shelling was done mostly by US A-10 30mm cannon fire. She was right about Italian Military serving as peacekeepers in the most affected areas. Over 400 soldiers have died of cancer with thousands more afflicted. Italian gov has admitted cause and soldiers are being compensated.
Excellant article: In Kosovo, NATO allies blame depleted uranium for cancer cases.
With Britain and America supplying the toxic ammunition to Ukraine, Declassified investigates the long-term health impact on one of the few countries where the weapon has been fired in anger.
https://declassifieduk.org/in-kosovo-nato-allies-blame-depleted-uranium-for-cancer-cases/
Posted by: JohnWick | Aug 26 2023 17:29 utc | 28
Someone needs to tell the staff at Lying But Mostly Truthful CNN, as well as their CIA backers, to their face that their propaganda is so ludicrous it's believable only to people who took so much fentanyl that their grey matter melted.
If these western propaganda rags want anyone above 80 IQ to take them seriously, they need to work on being more convincing rather than whining that their malarkey is called out.
Tediously accusing dissidents of being "Russian agents" doesn't help either and comes off as deeply petty.
Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Aug 26 2023 17:32 utc | 29
@JustAMaverick | Aug 26 2023 16:53 utc | 18
I know what you mean. I have a similar experience.
Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 26 2023 17:40 utc | 30
This will never end as long as the US exists or Russia, China or whoever they hate next or hate already no longer exists, it’s America vs the world. It just occurred to me that since somebody decided to rid Syria of President Assad the Americans have been causing trouble for Syria for over 10 years. Whoever jumps on the American anti Russia bandwagon gets infected, the Norwegians killed over 40 Reindeers just for going over the border (as they’ve been doing for hundreds or thousands of years).
Posted by: The Rightway | Aug 26 2023 17:45 utc | 31
Posted by: Eighthman | Aug 26 2023 16:36 utc | 410
On a previous thread:-
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/08/so-much-winning-/comments/page/5/#comments
......................
“There were cases of desertion from the very beginning of the operation,” Aleksey Borzenko, deputy chief editor of the Literary Russia newspaper, told Sputnik in an interview. “One has to understand that those most motivated to go to war with us consisted of a group of about 80,000 fighters who intended to enter Donetsk in March of last year, but whom we beat to the punch. From among these motivated forces, perhaps 10 percent are left, if not less,” the observer explained.
From the reference here:-
that links to a further article:-
"In the course of a special military operation, secret documents of the command of the National Guard of Ukraine came into the possession of the Russian military. These documents confirm covert preparation by the Kiev regime of an offensive operation in Donbas scheduled for March 2022," said official representative of the Russian Defence Ministry, Major General Igor Konashenkov.
...............
"Covert preparation" or not, the existence and contents of these "secret documents" must have been known to senior Ukrainian officers. They must also have been known to at least some officers in the Ukrainian forces assembled along the LoC at that time: an offensive on that scale needs some time for preparation and the plans would have been distributed to those in command along the LoC.
From the preparatory disposition of troops and from the logistical preparations most in forces along the LoC would have guessed such an offensive was in prospect.
Added to that, soldiers gossip and particularly irregulars.
Yet I have heard of no statements or even rumours that might support the assertion that a Ukrainian offensive was planned for that time. Nor have any such statements or rumours been confirmed by what we have heard of prisoner interrogation.
It's very possible there's material on this I've missed. I spend little time with Telegram reports and don't keep up as much as perhaps I should with statements put out by the Russians. Nevertheless, the seemingly complete absence of any confirmatory material on these alleged Ukrainian plans for an offensive does on the face of it lead to the conclusion those plans did not exist.
It makes no difference to the big picture. A large NATO trained army on the LoC facing LDNR forces greatly inferior in numbers, the increase in shelling across the LoC, and the closeness of the Ukrainian forces to Donetsk - all those factors are in themselves justification for a Russian pre-emptive attack. Given those facts, the Russians would have been foolish not to pre-empt. We in the West claim the SMO was an "unprovoked" attack. But in reality the provocation was very great and the SMO therefore inevitable.
I still don't like the fact that those "secret documents" have not been backed up. Is there any confirmation I've missed that the Ukrainian offensive plans existed?
Posted by: English Outsider | Aug 26 2023 17:45 utc | 32
Ahenobarbus -- I like your posts. You see how the pieces make a bigger picture.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Aug 26 2023 17:46 utc | 33
I think the over-step with Trump’s arrest and the ‘mugshot seen around the world’ is probably the moment the plates begin to shift, after much creaking and groaning and promises of earthquakes that never came. The black communities response will be critical, and if this guys message starts to find fertile ground Lord knows where it may end up.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 17:24 utc | 27
That's a good point. When I saw that I recalled just how trendy similar mugshots of Jim Morrison, Frank Sinatra, David Bowie and others had become.
Intelligence agents are glorified law enforcement dorks disconnected from the populous. (As proven by the regular agents at the bar) They have full spectrum dominance but still can't seem to win the public. That stupid photo was hailed as the picture of our generation last week. You can almost hear the puppet masters screaming, "we've got him now! A mugshot indicates opposition to authority and nobody likes that in America!"
Nonetheless, the painfully naive Trump could be making better use of the situation. As an individual I think he's tired.
Unfortunately for intelligence, it's not Trump but his voters that are the challenge. Their concerns will just grow stronger along with their hate for the political elite. This is the case with former Bernie voters too. The idea is to intimidate all of them into silence, which might have worked a couple decades ago when more people had something to lose.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 17:50 utc | 34
I am of the opinion that we have all been indoctrinated. It is a normal feature of a civilized society that knows what kind of citizens it wants. The problem with the current process is that it is heavy handed and contrary to our interests. It is not an effort to produce a stable and peaceful society. Rather it is an effort to tear one down so that it can be replaced by something more to the liking of an elite class.
Posted by: Jmaas | Aug 26 2023 17:51 utc | 35
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Aug 26 2023 17:46 utc | 33
Thanks, Fig. A toast to Saturday: To health and happiness!
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 17:52 utc | 36
Ironically, the tidal wave of propaganda in the American MSM has trained people like me to largely ignore it. I'm relying more on ZH and RT these days. Certainly I read everything skeptically, but they seem reasonably informative and interesting.
Posted by: Boris Badenov | Aug 26 2023 17:57 utc | 37
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 16:43 utc | 15
I dont want to get too far off topic. But the last released poll I read showed President Trump's support by Black Americans at 20% and growing fast.
Out of the 19 defendants who were arrested along with President Trump. Only one remains in jail. A black man named Harrison Floyd. Who was denied bail by a white liberal Judge. Simply because he was a Trump supporter who did no wrong. This will not settle well in America's Black community. Who the Democrats take for granted.
Support by Black Americans for President Trump is growing. Also They do not want anything to do with this insane war.
Posted by: Golddigger | Aug 26 2023 18:02 utc | 38
The people are broken, ignorant and brainwashed, divided against themselves and unable to defend themselves in any way. I'm glad I am no longer a young man because I would not choose to grow up in this distorted and twisted reality. I read Animal Farm when I was twelve years old and 1984 when I was fourteen. I have been warning this was coming for decades and people would just look at me like I had two heads. Now, they don't look at me at all.....
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Aug 26 2023 16:53 utc | 18
Cheer up old boy. It's not as bad as all that. We're in a twilight phase between a dead old system and something else that is not perfectly clear yet. Could be a new dawn, could be night depending on whether the power of the imperialists or the power of billions of victimized working people globally wins the day. And remember the ruling class in the west is weaker today than it has ever been, which is a nice start.
Plus you've always got the bar. Have a drink on me.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 18:03 utc | 39
It's somewhat encouraging to see the Whack-A-Mole censure of alternative news and opinion sites is only lasting 12-48 hours before they pop right back up!
Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Aug 26 2023 18:15 utc | 40
@ bevin | Aug 26 2023 17:24 utc | 26
thanks.. i realized that afterwards..
Posted by: james | Aug 26 2023 18:23 utc | 41
And now the know-nothings jump in and blame the Western targeted "sheeple" for the deep disinformation thrown at them on a daily basis. . . .Arch Bungle, are you there?
Posted by: Don Bacon | Aug 26 2023 18:49 utc | 42
It is interesting to consider what they are telling on CNN. It's like they are putting out a warning ahead of some story appearing - not to believe that story because Russia's FSB is putting out disinformation.
Now, let's think. What story might CNN and the intelligence services be trying to head off? What big story is the FSB investigating?
Oh, yes. The death of Prigozhin and Wagner commanders in a plane crash.
On Slavyangrad today, "A video appeared on the network with a statement by a representative of PMC "Wagner"....PMC representative hinted that the US intelligence services were behind the death of their commanders."
Posted by: Belle | Aug 26 2023 18:53 utc | 43
It wasn't just information that could be found or observed by a reporter but a curated collection of items put together to create a certain effect.Think about that for a minute and you will recognize that most of the 'news' one reads is made like this.
I once had a job at a major news organization. All writers and producers were called into a meeting. There, an executive declared their highest priority for the next six months was to deliver the US Presidential election to this chosen candidate. I wasn't in the meeting, but multiple people reported the same story afterwards. And then almost all of them went and did what they were told.
If the 'news' you are reading, watching, or listening to contains ads, it's propaganda.
I have no idea how this can ever be countered.
Education. And not an ‘education’ of facts but an education to think deeply.
It is one of the reasons that western schools and universities have been gradually undermined and gutted over the last few decades. Ain’t no accident.
Posted by: Rae | Aug 26 2023 19:23 utc | 45
Thank you -b-
Read through your post and articles.
Going to cite this site as an FYI… long read, but insightful as to US analysis. RAND: The Russian “Firehose of Falsehood” Propoganda Model
https://www.rand.org/pubs/perspectives/PE198.html
I’m including (way way bottom #5 “solutions”… just as confirmation that censorship is government sanctioned, and we’re not all conspiracy theorists for suggesting it.
Rand:
“Our fifth and final suggestion for addressing the challenge of Russian propaganda is to use various technical means to turn off (or turn down) the flow. If the firehose of falsehood is being employed as part of active hostilities, or if counterpropaganda efforts escalate to include the use of a wider range of information warfare capabilities, then jamming, corrupting, degrading, destroying, usurping, or otherwise interfering with the ability of the propagandists to broadcast and disseminate their messages could diminish the impact of their efforts. Anything from aggressive enforcement of terms of service agreements with Internet providers and social media services to electronic warfare or cyberspace operations could lower the volume—and the impact—of Russian propaganda.”
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 26 2023 19:37 utc | 19
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 26 2023 19:45 utc | 46
I think the first time I was truly frightened of my government (the U.S.) was reading the Jan. 2017 intelligence report on Russian election interference. Among the examples were RT stories on the military industrial complex, opposition to fracking, the Occupy Movement, concerns over money in politics. It suddenly occurred to me the intelligence people writing the report very clearly believed these views to be unAmerican.
Posted by: GS | Aug 26 2023 20:10 utc | 47
I wake up each day feeling like I'm the protagonist in my very own dystopian novel.
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Aug 26 2023 16:53 utc | 18
I know what you mean. I have a similar experience.
Posted by: Norwegian | Aug 26 2023 17:40 utc | 30
JE SUIS WINSTON SMITH!
Posted by: farm ecologist | Aug 26 2023 20:12 utc | 48
That NYT piece is by Julian Barnes a well known liar.
Example, a few years back in NYT reporting he claimed unequivocally that Israel has a nuclear weapons program.
He's less believable than Sean Hannity of Fox News.
Posted by: Jay | Aug 26 2023 20:15 utc | 49
If the firehose of falsehood is being employed as part of active hostilities, or if counterpropaganda efforts escalate to include the use of a wider range of information warfare capabilities, then jamming, corrupting, degrading, destroying, usurping, or otherwise interfering with the ability of the propagandists to broadcast and disseminate their messages could diminish the impact of their efforts.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 26 2023 19:37 utc | 19
So we need to counter their counter-propaganda? Mrs. Rand, your freudian slip is showing...
Posted by: farm ecologist | Aug 26 2023 20:22 utc | 50
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 17:50 utc | 34
‘Nonetheless, the painfully naive Trump could be making better use of the situation. As an individual I think he's tired.’
I think he was in 2016, I doubt he is now as his former ‘colleagues’ have been exposed or outed themselves. He is now the head of a movement that transcends politics, imprisoning him will only motivate his supporters to grow the movement more, intimidating them will only bring a short respite, as all failing tyrannies discover.
If you impose a COIN template onto the MAGA movement you get interesting parallels that suggest the Fourth Branch of Government in the US, the intelligence services, are fighting a losing battle against a growing political insurgency. Although the authorities are trying to constantly provoke the insurgents, from Jan 6th onwards, they wisely have stuck to social media, memes, taking over local parent groups and using the compromised Republican Party to fight back.
If anyone’s, interested the stages of insurgency can be found here p4-6
https://tribalanalysiscenter.com/Research%20Tools/Guide_to_the_Analysis_of_Insurgency.pdf
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 20:23 utc | 51
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 20:23 utc | 51
It's possible, but I think Trump as an individual might be finished. However, his followers remain and just grow as the country falls apart. So, I'd say he's opened up a new politic. Somebody will pull the sword from the stone and succeed him, regardless of what happens to him as an individual.
The winning slogans going forward for these guys are: abolish the intelligence agencies, peace with Russia and paper ballots. The problem for these guys is they think they can make capitalism great again, they want a doomed war with China and they want to make imperial foreign policy great again too.
All of this is impossible. They need to break from such illusions. Hard reality will help with that.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 20:46 utc | 52
Two substack items I've published today relate to this thread's topic. The most recent is "Why Was Strategic-Culture's Plug Pulled?".
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 20:46 utc | 52
The number of commentators and politicians who have underestimated Trump and suffered is staggering, he seems best when under pressure so stay tuned. No unnecessary wars is the MAGA slogan, given their children have to fight them, and capitalism is still the most realistic, I.e. aligns with human nature, economic system, IMHO. Socialism’s greatest failing is that it requires a new model of humanity to succeed, which invariably leads to the collectivist tyranny that is being increasingly imposed on Western citizens, when they reject this future created for them.
As I said, clear the decks of the scum and then Left and Right can kick the intellectual shite out of each other, whilst 99.9% of the world gets on trying to achieve their dreams or just survive, but keeping an eye on the intellectuals shouting at each other.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 21:03 utc | 54
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Aug 26 2023 16:08 utc | 4
...Jan 6th wasn't an "insurrection " it was run by federal officers trying to get a insurrectiony result, and they've got the eyewitnesses being openly tortured in prison.
What is it with Americans or those people who, for whatever reason, closely follow certain aspects of American politics from abroad (or the near abroad)? Everything is black or white, my team or the other team, all or nothing. Let me give you an example or two. But on topic, methinks you're a victim of your own preferred propaganda bubble.
You probably think that there were zero infiltrators in the "mostly peaceful" protests and riots of 2020, and that it was mostly violent and organic in nature having been committed by the evil duo of Antifa and BLM (or those opportunists, all just citizens) taking advantage. Despite this, I can provide you suspects and examples proving that in fact the rioting and violence was often sparked by infiltrators, police (local and fed), etc. There are also many people involved still in jail as a result and others with rap sheets for something they likely didn't even do - not to mention the dead and injured.
But here you say that Jan 6 was *strictly* a federally managed faux insurrection and that otherwise, without infiltration it would have been completely peaceful. So far I've heard the name Ray Epps and he's now suing Fox News and others because he wasn't a federal agent. So who are the feds involved in Jan 6?
Also you mentioned a person (I assume you meant one, but if you know of more I'd be interested in their story too) who is "tortured" - When if you look up this man's actual case file and criminal history, it just makes him another in a long line of convicted criminals (black and white) who are still victims of the criminal justice system - but you, Neofeudal Future - you've never once raised an objection to any of the other tens of thousands of Americans being tortured and placed in solitary confinement despite that it's been happening for decades upon decades.
We are only meant to care when one White conservative Trump supporter dude's case is presented to "our side" (propaganda, anyone?) devoid of almost all the previous and current context (long rap sheet, violent convictions, contempt of court - i.e., the same thing the people currently crying about this guy always bring up when it's a Black or leftist defendant). Again, I have a (Latino/Hispanic) friend who was kept in solitary for the better part of 7 fucking years - for a cocaine rap. But people like him (and Julian Assange and Daniel Hale, frankly) get shoved aside because some stupid right wing rag wants us to be mad about one or two participants in a violent outburst/breaking into the capitol in response, in large part, to President Trump's statements. Again, I can promise you that the outlets reporting on this guy who got thrown into a janitor's closet and beaten up by prison guards have never and will never run any articles in support of Julian Assange, a man indicted for political reasons by President Donald J. Trump.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Aug 26 2023 21:23 utc | 55
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 17:24 utc | 27
LOL pretty funny, but I think you miss the point if you think that dude is a Trump supporter who likes Trump's policies*. That's not the case; he's taking a burn it all down approach (with which I can definitely sympathize) and effectively means that getting Trump back in the WH will mean that the system will fail sooner rather than later - AND - he's sending the same "middle finger" or "Fuck You" message that Michael Moore correctly gave for why previous Obama voters turned around and voted for Trump.
* As I tried to convey, it really doesn't matter if that dude (or any Black people) support Trump's policies and I can guarantee that one in particular doesn't GAF about the Mexico border, but I myself have considered voting for Trump (as opposed to NOT voting, or voting Green) for the same exact reasons as he's giving. I won't do it, but it's tempting.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Aug 26 2023 21:32 utc | 56
I in South america must walk kilometers to find out one miserable, scarce guy who knows what is a hypersonic, what a shit are the patriot AD systems or javelins, that over 13 thousand russian civilians were killed the Ukies in the Donbass in 7 years, that a nuke capable missile in Poland or Kiev is minutes away from Moscow and etc many etc.
How come is there any Russian propaganda
reaching any one around?
One of the best pieces of reporting ever. Thanks b.
Which is why I really only get my news from sites such as this.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Aug 26 2023 21:36 utc | 58
Posted by: AOTP | Aug 26 2023 17:12 utc | 22
I think it is high time western MSM and entertainment churn out propaganda films for the western sheeple (esp. for western young males) a la how the western hero single-handedly defeated the evil Russians in ukr in preparation for them to be sent to war there...
Unfortunately, your vision may be being queued up. For the fourth or fifth army or whatever army for Ukraine. We live in a sad world.
Posted by: MarkO | Aug 26 2023 22:05 utc | 59
If the 'news' you are reading, watching, or listening to contains ads, it's propaganda.
Posted by: D | Aug 26 2023 18:58 utc | 44
If it doesn’t contain adverts, it’s BBC propaganda.
Posted by: Lev Davidovich | Aug 26 2023 22:10 utc | 60
Tom_Q_Collins @55
The problem with your false equivalency is that the Jan 6 protests were not riots at all. The narrative that the Jan 6 rally was an "insurrection" and involved "riots" is 100% manufactured from whole cloth by establishment mass media.
Meanwhile, the establishment mass media tried its level best to defend and rationalize the "fiery but mostly peaceful" riots of 2020.
Yes, there were infiltrators and instigators in both cases. It is what American law enforcement organizations do. They cannot help themselves. The key, though, is the difference in how the imperial mass media spun the narratives between Jan 6 protests and 2020 riots. It is undeniable that the mass media deliberately demonized the Jan 6 protesters, while running interference and providing cover for the 2020 rioters/looters.
Honestly now, could you even imagine any mass media narrative nozzle defending an Occupy Wall Street protest with "fiery but mostly peaceful"? Can you name ONE participant in the 2020 riots who was doxed by the mass media? Yet they went on a frenzy hunting down participants in the Jan 6 protests.
There was a huge difference in how the presstitution industry approached the the 2020 riots and the Jan 6 protests. You cannot even bring yourself to call the Jan 6 events a harmless protest, which it was, or the 2020 events riots, which again they were. The very fact that you cannot acknowledge the true nature of these events and instead parrot the establishment mass media false narratives is proof positive they have you thoroughly brainwashed.
Challenge for you: When and from whom did you first hear about George Floyd's criminal history as a violent thug? I want you to go back and find the first article you read that you believe prejudiced some of the population against George Floyd. I offer this challenge because you falsely believe the mass media was trying to vilify Floyd, and that you were bravely resisting their mind control. On the other hand, I contend that you were putty in the hands of the presstitutes; completely remote controlled; the impression in your mind of George Floyd was manufacture and planted in your consciousness by the establishment mass media, in the same way they plant a marketing jingle in your head... they very successfully brainwashed you.
I bring this up not to vilify you, but rather because it is a serious problem you should deal with. Furthermore, I believe you have the capacity to break free of the Establishment's remote control. Some of the ideas you discuss are good ones. You just need to look in the mirror and apply those ideas there.
Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 26 2023 22:20 utc | 61
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Aug 26 2023 21:32 utc | 56
It doesn’t matter who the guy supports, I doubt he’ll vote Democrat, maybe even vote for Trump, but he sees in Trump a way to end the system of corrupt corporations taking over government. As Bannon correctly diagnosed, Trump is a devisive figure because that is what is needed, divide, fight, unite and that is what the establishment are terrified of, a uniter who moves America forward. It’s also what the professional left are terrified of, for without the fuel to stoke bitter division they are useless to their masters. Perhaps, irony of ironies, Trump may address the problems the left have supposedly been interested in. As a personal note, one of my wife’s best friends used to work in Trump Tower NY, when my wife quizzed her about the media portrayal of the man she said, in her experience, it was the exact opposite. A genuinely nice guy, always popping down to talk to the junior staff and taking a genuine interest in their problems.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 22:23 utc | 62
What I find interesting is if you go back 8 or 9 years to what was being reported by MSM, you find a fairly balanced view of things. For example, put "BBC Maidan 2014" in a YT search and see what comes back.
Here's what TIME had to say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fy910FG46C4
Here's the Guardian:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jiBXmbkwiSw
Vice weighs in:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMMXuKB0BoY
and back to the BBC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SBo0akeDMY
Plenty more where that came from, just look around. Compare that to today and what it tells you is that they hadn't yet received their marching orders and were actually doing their job, more or less.
Hang on to those links guys, so when you meet someone who's using current MSM arguments to make their pro Ukraine case you can hit them over the head with them.
AOTP | Aug 26 2023 17:12 utc | 22
*** I have doubts about the last part. May be they will omit that. Doubts doubts. What do you barfies think?***
As outlined, it would be heavily attacked -- maybe cancelled -- for omitting a (++ positive) LGBTQxyz element. And even then just to be absolutely on the safe side could have to ensure that some 'heroic' characters were scripted as, or at least were played by, Jews.
Mind you, some "differently abled" quadri-gendered, nine legged self-identified purple breadbin lid with attitude might still complain anyway.
Posted by: Cynic | Aug 26 2023 22:35 utc | 64
Socialism’s greatest failing is that it requires a new model of humanity to succeed, which invariably leads to the collectivist tyranny that is being increasingly imposed on Western citizens, when they reject this future created for them.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 21:03 utc | 54
Well, you lost me there. This issue comes up at the bar a lot and I'd say it's largely because of the cold war anti communism that intelligent, critical thinkers seem to know very little about Marxism.
They sort of take the Imperialist caricature of it for the real thing or more commonly lately, they insist global capitalism is socialism or even stupider, they insist the blood soaked imperialist Dems and their billionaire backers are socialist!
To be clear, Libtard social engineering is precisely with us to prevent any Socialism from developing. It's certainly not for the benefit of the environment or the golden identities, except one, maybe.
Luckily for us Marx was a good and prolific writer and the perspective of Socialism was clearly outlined by the 1890s.
Read up and let me know if you find anything offensive in this summary of it:
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1880/soc-utop/index.htm
Believe it or not, modern Capitalism is just about 500 years old. Prior to that there was a totally distinct socioeconomic system which everybody thought eternal and best suited to human beings.
If Socialism is not the next step in socioeconomic development, then tell me what is? Capitalism certainly cannot be the last word in human social organization.
There were also once no airplanes. Many tried to fly in progressively better contraptions after many deadly failures, which convinced many that air travel was simply impossible.
Worshiping the accomplished fact is quite common. Let's have more visionaries at the bar. The times demand it!
Oh and for those of you focused on the Jews, you're in luck. Marx covered that too.
Have a look, it's pretty good...
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/jewish-question/
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 22:51 utc | 65
I bring this up not to vilify you, but rather because it is a serious problem you should deal with. Furthermore, I believe you have the capacity to break free of the Establishment's remote control. Some of the ideas you discuss are good ones. You just need to look in the mirror and apply those ideas there.
Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 26 2023 22:20 utc | 61
I think he's got you there, Tom.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 22:55 utc | 66
Milites | Aug 26 2023 21:03 utc | 54
"..Socialism’s greatest failing is that it requires a new model of humanity to succeed, which invariably leads to the collectivist tyranny that is being increasingly imposed on Western citizens, when they reject this future created for them..."
Yawn.
All that socialism asks is that people treat one another as neighbours, which is generally what they always have done and what they tend to do. The problem any society faces-and this is true of any number of communities from hunter gatherer to peasant to urban industrial- is that of dealing with oddball predators, who regard altruism as a weakness and an invitation for abuse.
Your worldview seems to be rooted in the crudest social darwinist ideologies of C19th Capitalism, which coincidentally fit in easily with this neo-liberal era.
And this:
"...As I said, clear the decks of the scum and then Left and Right can kick the intellectual shite out of each other, whilst 99.9% of the world gets on trying to achieve their dreams or just survive, but keeping an eye on the intellectuals shouting at each other."
is anti-intellectualism plus lurid fantasies of violence: "whenever I hear the word Culture I reach for my revolver." You and Hermann both.
Posted by: bevin | Aug 26 2023 22:58 utc | 67
Salaam to all at this bar.Hey English outsider@32, would the pronouncements of Hollande and Merkel-re Minsks 1&2, be good enough as credible evidence,to support the subsequent actions taken by Russia! The bio weapons labs "documents", that the Russians (seized during the SMO) and claim they have,may also be "secret documents" that can't be backed up.Me thinks your scared of the truth!
Posted by: 4q8 | Aug 26 2023 23:26 utc | 68
Bevin@67
The Georing quote is witty “When I hear the word culture I reach for my browning” . Not original to Georing but a German playwright. From memory, not completely reliable . Always enjoy reading your posts.
Posted by: John Shipton | Aug 26 2023 23:27 utc | 69
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 21:03 utc | 54
Private ownership of the means of production clearly belongs to the "new model of humanity" compared to the economy of shared means of production that has lasted for hundreds of thousands of years. If there is human nature, the latter aligns with human nature.
You see the results of capitalism and its temporary victory over socialism, and then refuse to believe it is capitalism and condemn socialism.
This is capitalism. Inflation driven primarily by rising profits, hedge funds profiting from rising commodity prices, and US imperialism attempting to compete for profits with Russia/China are all clearly capitalism.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 26 2023 23:49 utc | 70
Posted by: Milites | Aug 26 2023 22:23 utc | 62
Corporations have never been "taking over the system of government". Serving corporations is a function of capitalist government, not a mistake.
Perhaps it suits your belief that those who oppose you are "the professional left" rather than ordinary people with real jobs (not landowners or something like that).
And, you ignored how Trump passed a bill giving corporations big tax cuts, while even claiming that Trump is against corporate control of the government.
As you said on NATO, you're not opposed to bourgeois control of the government, you're just opposed to a government that isn't controlled by the bourgeoisie on your side of the aisle.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 26 2023 23:57 utc | 71
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 16:43 utc | 15
Where is the rising, provocative and highly divisive transgender movement?
In fact, I was under the impression that the transgender movement had been the shadow behind the gay movement until the conservative side of the culture wars found transgender as their new common enemy since the majority of the population is not currently anti-gay.
The 1619 Project, like the settler book, capitalizes on the problem that does exist that the left is sometimes too oblivious to the issue of race, but often their purpose is simply to undermine the left.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 0:06 utc | 72
Posted by: bevin | Aug 26 2023 22:58 utc | 67
No it does not, as you should know, it elevates the collective over the individual. It is in essence tribalism, as you reveal with your replies to every poster who does not agree with your simplistic solutions. Your ‘oddball predators’ comment is very revealing, because it sums up the confusion academic socialists have when they face the world of reality. Oddball, why, because they don’t behave the correct way, what are you going to do with non-conformists, who historically have driven society forward, punish them because their actions weren’t approved by the collective.
‘All that socialism asks is that people treat one another as neighbours, which is generally what they always have done and what they tend to do’.
Translation: all that I demand is that people behave in a way I find preferable, because I have an ideological view of the past and an idealistic view of the present.
‘is anti-intellectualism plus lurid fantasies of violence: "whenever I hear the word Culture I reach for my revolver." You and Hermann both.’
Again, far too revealing. Yeah, I’d reach for a metaphorical snub-nosed .357 Magnum when I hear the word, because it’s usually used by people who mean just the opposite, as you’ve amply demonstrated with your patronising, and ironically uncultured, response to my post.
As for my worldview, it’s a product of living in the real one.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 27 2023 0:10 utc | 73
So basically, they are calling moa and others Putin puppets. I suppose one could justifiably call nyt Biden's bozos (not literally mean Biden, but rather the people who run the US but using Biden as symbolic of the organizations/people). Or one could allow that maybe they say what they do for their own reasons. Whatever, they say stuff - take it for what you will. Personally, I do not waste my time reading nyt - I dont care to know what the CIA wants us to believe. OK so nyt is Bidens puppet, and we know how CIA has developed of the years the ingenious technique of acusing others of what they are doing. Its fairly predictable at this point. I think they might over use it a bit, its become a bit of a joke. It makes me wonder: Who is target audience for their crap?
Posted by: jared | Aug 27 2023 0:14 utc | 74
@tom 55
"
You probably think that there were zero infiltrators in the "mostly peaceful" protests and riots of 2020
"
Au contraire mon frère. Blm riots were an attack orchestrated by those interests that cnn serves. An attack on the USA, involving plenty of foreign elements. The jan6 "insurrection" was a dog whistle to lure out patriots in support of their country, in the ruse of a protest over the stolen election.
A Trump America that doesn't put its sordid global empire first is better for everyone on the planet. That's the reason i all but know that Jan 6 was a deftly parried thrust by the public against what was a clearly flawed election. You just can't trust mail in ballots there's no chain of trust between the voter and the counter.
Yes it's true I don't have court level evidence, but just another guy with plenty of open source material, and guidebooks on propaganda to reason things out.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Aug 27 2023 0:15 utc | 75
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 26 2023 20:46 utc | 52
Yes, it is totally unfeasible to oppose current anti-Russian imperialist behavior while wishing to retain support for NATO.
Many of them even just want to replace the war against Russia with a war against China.
But given China's much larger economy, this war would clearly be a much bigger disaster.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 0:15 utc | 76
@English Outsider | Aug 26 2023 17:45 utc | 32
Is there any confirmation I've missed that the Ukrainian offensive plans existed?
Did you see the OSCE records on the shelling on the contact line showing an increased tempo from the Ukrainian forces just prior to the start of the SMO? Did you see the video clips showing the evacuation of women and children by bus which the DNR authorities organised at that time?
Posted by: cirsium | Aug 27 2023 0:17 utc | 77
@ Posted by: Colin | Aug 26 2023 23:57 utc | 71
The US is not a "capitalist government" and is not intended to serve corporations, but rather its people.
They like to claim that serving corporations is serving people, hence: neo-liberalisms, aka corporatism.
Saw interesting post on zh a while back, discuss what is referred to in legal context as the "personhood" of corporations. @ome time about mid 1900s I think it was some fedral judge declared the corporations haves "rights" as people do. Clearly, its been all down hill ever since.
See, there are still some intelligent people reading zh.
Posted by: jared | Aug 27 2023 0:24 utc | 78
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 0:06 utc | 72
Are you being ignorant or disingenuous? Either that or you have no gay friends or ones who are feminists.
Why are you so against progress, why do you insist people go back to how they were living thousands of years ago? Ordinary people, who are they, the ones who have your state sanctioned approved views. As for Capitalism I’m with Churchill on that one. I’ve lived under a socialist government behind the Iron Curtain, and saw daily the tragi-comic results, I’ve lived under Left wing governments in the West and saw the results, so my political views are based on primary, empirical sources, not secondary ones as I suspect yours largely are. Bourgeoise, does any normal person use that anymore? I much preferred the ‘running dogs’ insult.
As for Trump, why must he be perfect? He’s a murder weapon that’s all, a battered AK missing all its furniture can still get the job done.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 27 2023 0:41 utc | 79
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Aug 27 2023 0:15 utc | 75
I think the fact that Trump won all but a few of the bellwether counties and there were 5 million more people allegedly voting than recorded in the latest census were flags on the play. Oh, and the 67K ineligible Georgia residence who cast their vote, and the suppression of the Hunter laptop story, and the ballot dumps by individuals and the removal of Republican poll watchers and the ………..
Most of all, this administration behaves as though they stole the election.
Posted by: Milites | Aug 27 2023 0:59 utc | 80
Posted by: james | Aug 26 2023 16:15 utc | 8
https://strategic-culture.su/
New Eastern Outlook [previously journal-neo.org] had also been "scrubbed" by Big Brother.
It too has now apparently been restored, like SCF, using the .su suffix:
Big thanks to james; I discovered this just by trying SCF's new suffix.
Isn't it wonderful living in a "free" society? /sarcasm
Posted by: JMF | Aug 27 2023 1:18 utc | 81
@ jared who wrote:
Who is target audience for their crap?
Posted by: jared | Aug 27 2023 0:14 utc | 74
The PMC, those who implement “the design” intended to support the hegemonic dreams of the RC.
The system works on limiting access to knowledge, and indoctrination, so that people are led down the primrose path to believe tney are working, sacrificing, for a greater good, which is the big lie exposed by Julian, unforgivable by them so witness the results. most have now realized this thus the liberal authoritarianism
Unfortunately for them and them, the pmc and the upper crust invested—> karma. They are the authors and implementators of their own demise. The question remains how soon before the bloodbath ends and the people can focus on constructive relations
The arc of the universe tends toward truth and justice...after the rain, good weather.
Posted by: suzan | Aug 27 2023 1:22 utc | 82
Posted by: jared | Aug 27 2023 0:24 utc | 78
Of course, it claims to serve the people, just as a financial advisor claims to serve your best interests LMAO.
The federal government was created precisely to suppress peasant rebellions. The revolution arose because the bourgeoisie wanted the peasants and veterans to pay the cost of the revolution.
A farmer identified as "Plough Jogger" summarized the situation at a meeting convened by aggrieved commoners:I have been greatly abused, have been obliged to do more than my part in the war, been loaded with class rates, town rates, province rates, Continental rates, and all rates ... been pulled and hauled by sheriffs, constables, and collectors, and had my cattle sold for less than they were worth ... The great men are going to get all we have and I think it is time for us to rise and put a stop to it, and have no more courts, nor sheriffs, nor collectors nor lawyers.
Veterans had received little pay during the war and faced added difficulty collecting payments owed to them from the State or the Congress of the Confederation.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shays%27_Rebellion
In order to establish the federal government, Washington and the Federalists forced through their pre-established script.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitutional_Convention_(United_States)
The delegates were not fully authorized by the states at that time, and they did not know that they were going to negotiate a future federal constitution. It was therefore a typical unconstitutional and anti-democratic measure by currently acceptable standards.
Nor did most of the delegates arrive intending to draft a new constitution. Many assumed that the purpose of the convention was to discuss and draft improvements to the existing Articles of Confederation, and would not have agreed to participate otherwise.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 1:27 utc | 83
Posted by: Milites | Aug 27 2023 0:41 utc | 79
My gay friends and asexual feminist friends are staunch progressives, fully backing the trans movement and unequivocally opposing TERFs. You even think you know what they believe lol.
Highlighting Trump's alignment with corporate agendas doesn't equate to demanding his perfection. It's merely refuting the notion that he opposes corporate influence in government.
I, too, come from a former socialist country. Do you presume your personal experiences are unparalleled?
I took several official Marxist courses in university, though I found no value in the uninspiring lectures of ill-informed instructors.
Many entrepreneurs were friends of my mother. Through their words, I learned how they treated their employees illegally and with extreme viciousness and ruthlessness.
Given your strong resistance to the socialist advancements we need, it's contradictory and hilarious for you to falsely advocate for progress while simultaneously criticizing socialists for allegedly hindering it.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 1:53 utc | 84
@ A.z | Aug 26 2023 16:10 utc | 5
Even now us propaganda is extremely successful especially in the EU, Hungary excepted.
For South Asia, Pakistan and Sri Lanka run with the MICIMATT hare and hunt with the CCP hounds, India and Bangladesh are wiser - experience from 1971.
Posted by: Antonym | Aug 27 2023 2:01 utc | 85
Posted by: Milites | Aug 27 2023 0:10 utc | 73
The fact that you even think a class system didn't exist in pre-agricultural societies is an ideological view lol. You even don't know Archaeology and studies of current hunter-gatherer societies bear this out.
The real idealism here is the fantasy that fundamentally business as usual will solve the problems we face. Socialism at least offers the best solution I know of.
When I worked in a chemical plant that lacked protections, I knew exactly why Marx was right, even before clearly seeing the the viciousness of the bourgeoisie.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 2:04 utc | 86
"So we need to counter their counter-propaganda? Mrs. Rand, your freudian slip is showing...
Posted by: farm ecologist | Aug 26 2023 20:22 utc | 50"
Remember, the deep state and the propagandists own the wires. southfront, strategic-culture remind us of that. And, on a different plane, Nigel Farage - apparently 10,000 others in UK had already been debanked; he is not alone.
The cubans used to do a sneaker-net internet, carrying around USB drives to move data. Maybe it's time to go back to printed broadsheets stuck on telephone poles to move news. Physical ink and paper. I actually did that in my high-school - had an old hand-crank mimeo machine and I'd make midnight broadcasts. Of course, that was before days of ubiquitous surveillance cameras.
Bottom line, any "resistance" is going to have to create its own media with an uncorrupted financial base; advertising won't do. Nor does it do to keep correcting NYTIMES or WAPO or whatever; one should be able to choose NOT to read the lies. Down the road, they can die; I can only hope. Somehow, the MSM has to be put out of business.
Posted by: oracle | Aug 27 2023 2:08 utc | 87
"News is something someone wants suppressed. Everything else is just advertising"
Grace Kelly
“The freedom of the press works in such a way that there is not much freedom from it.”
Grace Kelly
Posted by: scanalyse | Aug 27 2023 2:08 utc | 88
Just in case anyone here doesn't know, just because there was only communal ownership thousands of years ago doesn't mean that communism is the same as going back to a way of life that existed thousands of years ago.
It just goes to show that you can't even claim that socialism/communism, as opposed to capitalism, "requires a new model of humanity".
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 2:12 utc | 89
Posted by: scanalyse | Aug 27 2023 2:08 utc | 88
When freedom of the press really means freedom in any sense of the word, there will be no more freedom of the press.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 2:14 utc | 90
@ Posted by: oracle | Aug 27 2023 2:08 utc | 87
My rule of thumb is:
When things look really bad,
its a sign that you are payin attention.
Meaning that you (we) are aware that there is a problem.
I suspect that in fact, real news has never been so available.
Its just that we chafe at the responsibilty of having to sort out the real from the nyt. We would rather that some trusted source would just hand it to us as executive summary.
They are working overtime to shut this down - real news.
AI will likely be the ticket.
Rather than searching for news AI will tell you what you need to know and it will be everywhere.
Hopefully Russia will get the AI code, and maybe develop it for purpose of good or at least to dispute the bad AI.
Posted by: jared | Aug 27 2023 2:27 utc | 91
When freedom of the press really means freedom in any sense of the word, there will be no more freedom of the press.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 2:14 utc | 90
---
The first freedom of the press is not to be a business. - Karl Marx
Posted by: Nobody | Aug 27 2023 3:31 utc | 92
It just goes to show that you can't even claim that socialism/communism, as opposed to capitalism, "requires a new model of humanity".
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 2:12 utc | 89
Keep trying, Colin.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 27 2023 3:49 utc | 93
Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 26 2023 22:20 utc | 61
You're 100% wrong. Of course Jan 6 devolved into a riot - or a couple of them. This is not even debatable.
Your issue is partly due to the fact that you don't seem to accept the written history of white people rioting, and let me tell you it is far more extensive than when Black people have (in the USA anyway).
And this part:
Challenge for you: When and from whom did you first hear about George Floyd's criminal history as a violent thug? I want you to go back and find the first article you read that you believe prejudiced some of the population against George Floyd. I offer this challenge because you falsely believe the mass media was trying to vilify Floyd, and that you were bravely resisting their mind control.
Many mistakes to unpack. Perhaps first and foremost is that I don't read or watch any corporate mainstream media as a primary source for anything. Fox News, OANN, Newsmax and of course numerous right-wing online sites were immediate in their urge to put out his criminal history - in the same manner as a criminal history was MANUFACTURED by the same people and outlets for Trayvon Martin. That's right - I was told that the teenager was actually an MMA prize fighting champion known for beating little white kids senseless on the playground....for MONEY even.
But also wrong because you should re-read my comment for accuracy and comprehension. Where did I say anything about "the media" vilifying black men who are victims of law enforcement and the criminal injustice system? I was talking about a specific vein of corporate media and online independent media - the right wing version. Again, NONE of the sites crying and bitching about this one guy who's in jail right now and being subjected to solitary confinement and alleged beatings have mentioned HIS extensive and violent criminal history and ALL of them have ALWAYS been first to point out any (even imagined) criminal history of black folks whose deaths at the hands of authorities led to demonstrations or violent riots (the latter of which are almost always sparked by excessive law enforcement violence or infiltrators including RW infiltrators/accelerationists like Umbrella Man who has mysteriously evaded identification and capture like the "antifa" types that Trumpers initially blamed for Jan 6).
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Aug 27 2023 3:50 utc | 94
Posted by: William Gruff | Aug 26 2023 22:20 utc | 61
You're very caught up on "the media" - Here's my post to which you responded again.
You probably think that there were zero infiltrators in the "mostly peaceful" protests and riots of 2020, and that it was mostly violent and organic in nature having been committed by the evil duo of Antifa and BLM (or those opportunists, all just citizens) taking advantage. Despite this, I can provide you suspects and examples proving that in fact the rioting and violence was often sparked by infiltrators, police (local and fed), etc. There are also many people involved still in jail as a result and others with rap sheets for something they likely didn't even do - not to mention the dead and injured.But here you say that Jan 6 was *strictly* a federally managed faux insurrection and that otherwise, without infiltration it would have been completely peaceful. So far I've heard the name Ray Epps and he's now suing Fox News and others because he wasn't a federal agent. So who are the feds involved in Jan 6?
Also you mentioned a person (I assume you meant one, but if you know of more I'd be interested in their story too) who is "tortured" - When if you look up this man's actual case file and criminal history, it just makes him another in a long line of convicted criminals (black and white) who are still victims of the criminal justice system - but you, Neofeudal Future - you've never once raised an objection to any of the other tens of thousands of Americans being tortured and placed in solitary confinement despite that it's been happening for decades upon decades.
We are only meant to care when one White conservative Trump supporter dude's case is presented to "our side" (propaganda, anyone?) devoid of almost all the previous and current context (long rap sheet, violent convictions, contempt of court - i.e., the same thing the people currently crying about this guy always bring up when it's a Black or leftist defendant). Again, I have a (Latino/Hispanic) friend who was kept in solitary for the better part of 7 fucking years - for a cocaine rap. But people like him (and Julian Assange and Daniel Hale, frankly) get shoved aside because some stupid right wing rag wants us to be mad about one or two participants in a violent outburst/breaking into the capitol in response, in large part, to President Trump's statements. Again, I can promise you that the outlets reporting on this guy who got thrown into a janitor's closet and beaten up by prison guards have never and will never run any articles in support of Julian Assange, a man indicted for political reasons by President Donald J. Trump.
The only mentions of media I made are to 1) The people currently trying to drum up outrage (and clicks and follows and likes and subs) for the one dude sitting in solitary for what he did on Jan 6 and 2) The particular subset of corporate media that caters to the reactionary right and/or the grievance culture White Replacement types. I never once even implied anything about CNN or MSDNC. And again, the "media" (and websites) I refer to have NEVER ONCE supported Julian Assange let alone Occupy Wall Street, so maybe it's you that needs to rethink what you THINK you read in my comments and how you chose to address it.
Let's take an example for you and anyone else. Find me some articles at Daily Caller, Breitbart, Fox News, OANN, NewsMaxx or the like where they called out the horrible persecution being visited on Julian Assange (indicted BY TRUMP's DOJ) or where they spoke of OWS in a positive manner. LOL you can't. And I'll wait an eternity for you to prove me wrong.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Aug 27 2023 3:56 utc | 95
The 1619 Project, like the settler book, capitalizes on the problem that does exist that the left is sometimes too oblivious to the issue of race, but often their purpose is simply to undermine the left.
Posted by: Colin | Aug 27 2023 0:06 utc | 72
That "problem" exists only in the mind of imperialist bafflers.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 27 2023 3:58 utc | 96
I find it funny but more so depressing that some of you people who claim to want the downfall of the Evil Empire (a desire I heartily share) cannot come to terms with two facts, one of which Gruff (perhaps accidentally or inconveniently) brought up.
1. Trump's DOJ - and by at least one legitimate account spoken under oath, Trump himself - is responsible for indicting Julian Assange where even the evil warmonger (no sarcasm or snark intended) Obama didn't.
2. The same RW media catering to far right, center right, grievance based old white people, never once defended or promoted Occupy Wall Street; and in fact those same outlets, people, pundits, sites, whatever, actually DENIGRATED OWS whereas they CELEBRATED the astroturf bullshit "Tea Party" when Obomber was president.
RTDS (Reverse Trump Derangement Syndrome) is real and several of you have it. It's pathetic considering that I generally think of (most of) you as intelligent people with viewpoints worth reading and even repeating on other matters. You're Trump fanbois no different than Empire Simps or Obama worshiping cucks.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Aug 27 2023 4:04 utc | 97
Posted by: Trubind1 | Aug 26 2023 19:45 utc | 46
Posted by: oracle | Aug 27 2023 2:08 utc | 87
In an attempt to emulate Arch Bungle’s Litany of Lies (in Ukraine thread ) – I start a list of untrustful sources and organizations –😉 )
I cannot trust the public information printed on paper, provided by local and national newspapers
I cannot trust the internet media
I cannot trust the police
I cannot trust the government
I cannot trust the money in the bank
I cannot trust what the politicians say in newspapers or on TV
I cannot trust (some)books
I cannot trust my colleagues and friends what they say to me in private
The list to be continued… (hopefully not with my wife…)
My point is – will I be able to trust the paper Samizdat attached somewhere on the street – maybe it is a provocation by the powers to be to find out dissidents?
Where will this crazy situation end up?
Posted by: fanto | Aug 27 2023 4:06 utc | 98
Posted by: fanto | Aug 27 2023 4:06 utc | 98
Just because we're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't out to get us, right?
To the thread:
I posted this as an embedded link in one of my comments but it bears putting out here in all of its glory.
https://caityjohnstone.medium.com/30-signs-you-might-be-an-empire-simp-94f4924ab1a3
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Aug 27 2023 4:09 utc | 99
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Aug 27 2023 4:09 utc | 99
Posted it on my fridge this afternoon.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Aug 27 2023 4:16 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
It is all projection. The intelligence agencies run nearly all of the main stream press.
Posted by: Goldhoarder | Aug 26 2023 15:58 utc | 1