Weak Propaganda Talk
From the Ukrainian Pravda, July 20, 2023 (machine translation):
The Ukrainian military in the south is advancing hundreds of meters every day - the National Guard
Every day, the Ukrainian military makes a gradual movement several hundred meters to the south and southeast.
Source: Military Media Center , which cites the words of the director of the department of planning for the use of the Main Directorate of the National Guard of Ukraine, Colonel Mykola Urshalovych
Direct speech: "In extremely difficult conditions of mined terrain and enemy fire... our assault groups, supported by tanks and artillery, continue their gradual movement to the south and southeast, displacing the invaders from Ukrainian land. Our soldiers and officers are literally gnawing through the enemy's defenses.
Every day we advance several hundred meters."
Prehistory:
- Earlier, the commander of the Ground Forces of the Armed Forces of Ukraine Oleksandr Syrskyi said that although the counteroffensive is taking place more slowly than it would be desirable, the Defense Forces are still advancing daily with battles at a distance of 500 m to 1 km.
The Ukrainian counteroffensive began on June 5, 2023. The (Ukraine friendly) LiveUAmap on that day looked like this:
bigger
Forty five days have passed since the counter-offensive was launched. Today the map looks like this:
bigger
In the eastward direction just south of Bakhmut/Artyomovsk open fields and some tree rows at a depth of 6,000 meters changed hand. No settlement was taken. In the southern direction during the 5,500 meter advance of the Ukrainians south of Velyka Novosilka six small, empty settlements were taken. (Small = one is literally named 'Five huts'). In the most western part, south of Orikiv, the advance was some 7,000 meter with two small settlements.
Over the last days the front lines in the south have not moved at all. The fighting north and south of Bakhmut has been back and forth for a while and the frontline there is somewhat not defined and largely not really moving.
All attacks came to a halt in the security zone before the real and hardened Russian defense lines.
Forty five days times 'several hundred meters' are at least 9,000 meter. That hasn't been reached anywhere.
The aim of the counter-offensive was to reach the Sea of Azov, some 100 kilometer south of the frontline. At the current speed it would take the Ukrainian army 1,000 days (and many more soldiers and material than it has) to reach it.
Why do General Syrskyi and Colonel Urshalovych think they can fool the Ukrainian people and their soldiers with such weak propaganda talk?
Posted by b on July 20, 2023 at 15:11 UTC | Permalink
next page »Something about the first casualty of war being the truth. Sad really, the whole thing. Hundreds of thousands dead, millions displaced because the Empire is addicted to the game of thrones.
The USA's only hope is a false flag against a NATO ally to involve it directly in the conflict.
I don't want to believe we're ruled by the insane, but I also know that is wishful thinking.
Posted by: gottlieb | Jul 20 2023 15:24 utc | 2
Because if Ukrainian families knew the extent of the needless, senseless violence they would assail the local government offices. And on the front lines, everyone would desert. Or shoot their CO in the back of the head.
This is no longer a war, this is like Auschwitz, Kiev-style, of their own men.
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 15:29 utc | 3
I'd say that talk is really for the imperialist master and it's media.
My guess is with a nazi dictatorship firmly established in Kiev and the ability to press gang anyone in the country to fight and, if they don't, to imprison or simply kill them, with that level of internal control, they don't really care about blatantly lying to their own public about the state of the war.
Relatively stable lines make this type of lying easier still. It will become much more difficult for the Ukies once Russia goes on offense and huge swaths of the country are liberated with massive Ukie casualties.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 20 2023 15:30 utc | 4
Russia certainly is NOT winning. Russia is a joke now, aways retreating. British bomb Russia with impunity and instead of killing English plotters, Russia bombs Odessa where most of population is Russian!
Russia prefers to kill slavs than the English pirate race which need to be annihilated for sake of human race.
Russia instead of waving proper war, allows herself to be distracted by grain deal - just to please Anglos. Putin is an unfit person for Presidency. Since 2013 when he should have asserted and armed Syria, he has been actively engaged in pleasing the Anglos evil 5 eyes.
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 15:37 utc | 5
thanks b...
i agree with @ Ahenobarbus | Jul 20 2023 15:30 utc | 4..
is there any more in depth information on this fellow Oleksandr Syrskyi? i see he was born in russia, north of moscow as memory serves.. his birthday is coming up soon.. anyone have more details on him then wikipedia is able to provide? thanks...
Posted by: james | Jul 20 2023 15:38 utc | 6
@ Sam | Jul 20 2023 15:37 utc | 5
i run a western media outlet and YOU"RE HIRED! lol... more stupid shit from the peanut gallery... oh well..
Posted by: james | Jul 20 2023 15:40 utc | 7
"Why do General Syrskyi and Colonel Urshalovych think they can fool the Ukrainian people and their soldiers with such weak propaganda talk?"
...because they themselves (the the Ukrainian people and their soldiers) want to be fooled?
Posted by: Alexander P | Jul 20 2023 15:41 utc | 8
Simplicius has a very interesting new piece out. He considers what will be the actions of the US as the BRCIS/SCO etc. put more and more of the bricks in place to remove the dollar financial hegemony without which the US Empire cannot exist. His thoughts are that the US will escalate the European war in a "controlled" fashion, trying to have the Europeans and Russia defeat each other, for example through Poland and Lithuania cutting off Kaliningrad to force Russia to invade to reconnect the land corridor etc.
He may be missing the bigger picture though, as China will still be there to support Russia and pick up some of the European pieces (unlike at the end of WW2 where the US was the dominant player). Also, the destruction of Europe will leave only US+Japan+SK+Australasia+UK perhaps, which is a pretty weak hand. In addition, the European publics will have to be severely corralled for such a strategy (not the elites who are bought and paid for) and Russia has escalation dominance.
He also sees the Crimean Bridge attack as a big propaganda failure given the very localized damage, and thus Ukraine will have to keep throwing bodies against the Russian defence wall in a vain attempt to gain some kind of victory that can be played up propaganda wise. This would be playing directly into Russia's favour, accelerating the collapse of the Ukie army.
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/putin-strikes-back-ukrainian-ports
What the Ukrainian report doesn't mention is that every evening and night they have to retreat and give up all the hundreds of metres over which they advance at the cost of hundreds of casualties and dozens of destroyed AFVs.
That's why there is no overall gain.
Posted by: Tom Welsh | Jul 20 2023 15:41 utc | 10
The core problem Ukraine has is that given the available equipment, they are getting a lot of troops killed and and equipment destroyed. The whole thing is playing out like an old Greek play that is a tragedy, the hero cursed right from the start.
"The fighting north and south of Bakhmut..." I would expect a major effort to take Bakhmut, or claim to take it owing to the propaganda value.
Posted by: Jmaas | Jul 20 2023 15:44 utc | 11
Yes, I can guess that you are a western agent who do says things in support of Putin and idiot lavrov's action. Only enemy of Russia would support Putin's folly now. Cassad and his type patriots were far sighted to recognise incompetency of Putin team 7 D chess - my foot! A great Army like Russian's has been humiliated by that incompetent team
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 15:48 utc | 12
@James 7
Yes, I can guess that you are a western agent who do says things in support of Putin and idiot lavrov's action. Only enemy of Russia would support Putin's folly now. Cassad and his type patriots were far sighted to recognise incompetency of Putin team 7 D chess - my foot! A great Army like Russian's has been humiliated by that incompetent team.
Quote "i run a western media outlet"
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 15:50 utc | 13
The USA's only hope is a false flag against a NATO ally to involve it directly in the conflict.
Getting the US directly involved in the conflict probably isn’t as good an idea as it sounds.
Posted by: Fred777 | Jul 20 2023 15:55 utc | 14
As always I have to admit that I don't really know what's going on - but it's fun to speculate. Some thoughts:
1. There is a YouTube channel "Inside the Chieftain's Hatch" (no I am not affiliated) that is mostly nerdy military tech about things like track tensioning, but the guy said one thing at the start of the Russia-Ukraine war that stuck with me: "Of course both sides are using propaganda, they'd be stupid not to." Notwithstanding the utterly corrupt and dishonest nature of the western corporate press, in a war you HAVE to try to convince your soldiers that they are doing great and the enemy is ready to fall apart, or how else can you get guys to risk life and limb fighting?
2. Maybe Ukraine is really on its last legs - and maybe not - but the Ukrainian army is no joke. Do you think the Russians built all those layered defenses all the way back to and even including Crimea because they needed the exercise?? Certainly the Russian leadership respects the Ukrainian military.
3. It might not matter. The Western elites don't really care if Ukraine 'wins,' they only want to bleed Russia. If Ukraine is left a shattered husk, the western elites will simply move on to other fronts to attack Russia. Maybe blockading Kalingrad, maybe more 'color revolutions' in the 'Stans, etc.etc. Ukraine may be just the opening act in a much longer war.
Posted by: TG | Jul 20 2023 15:57 utc | 15
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 15:37 utc | 5
Concerning bombing Odessa rather than British targets, the criticism is unfounded because Russia avoids hitting civilian areas, which is not always easy, but no civilian fatalities were reported so far, while at least two air-defense system were taken out. Russia's war conduct minimizes civilian casualties and their own military casualties, which so far seems excessively passive. However, there is a difference between sustainability achieved by massive policing and massive foreign aid and without it. Opponents of slow war in Russia have their public voice, but I suspect that most people there do not want "victory at any price", price matters.
Besides internal support, Russia needs international support to some extends, think about India, Brazil, Africa as typical trading partners.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 20 2023 15:57 utc | 16
The Ukranazi claims remind me of Syria in 2011-13 when the Syrian government kept on claiming to have "liberated" towns when all it had really done was send in byroops who would drive in and as soon as the requisite claim was made, drive out again.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jul 20 2023 15:58 utc | 17
@Sam 5:
Tahr a few deep breaths and calm down. You'll get your WWIII soon enough.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jul 20 2023 15:59 utc | 18
There was a very recent account/video from an AFU soldier who criticized this reporting, according to which they make several hundred meter gains per day. It never actually happens.
Will post it when finding it.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 16:04 utc | 19
That's why there is no overall gain.
Posted by: Tom Welsh | Jul 20 2023 15:41 utc | 10
b provided more measured assessment.
3. It might not matter. The Western elites don't really care if Ukraine 'wins,' they only want to bleed Russia. If Ukraine is left a shattered husk, the western elites will simply move on to other fronts to attack Russia. Maybe blockading Kalingrad, maybe more 'color revolutions' in the 'Stans, etc.etc. Ukraine may be just the opening act in a much longer war.
Posted by: TG | Jul 20 2023 15:57 utc | 16
What "Western elites" think makes me wonder if they think at all. However, one reason hypersonic and similar long distance weapons are used sparingly is the eventuality of attack on Kaliningrad or maritime blockades. The price tag of such adventures should look high, with no discounts in sight.
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jul 20 2023 16:09 utc | 20
Thanks b.
for a subject touching controlled propaganda, as that opens many questions.
Who is telling them to lie and how stupid one must be to obey, knowing that this goes nowhere? I can imagine some directive coming from the Ukrainian Western partners that the truth is not important for a 'victory'.
If NATO's experts would be in the know, that, if engaged in a big offensive action that a breach failed, and the lines become stable, it is the time to run and prepare for the deep defense, saving military assets at the front. Letting Ukrainians go full headbang in the RF's wall of defense was and is stupid, and now they now it. But not thinking about plan b) and c) on time, is costly and a prerequisite for losing this conflict in all possible bad ways.
The worst way NATO can end up is with RF on both corridors/gaps a Suwalki and Focsani. But even one will do. It seems that old cold war NATO is outdone itself. A kind of a suicide from an ambush.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 16:10 utc | 21
Getting the US directly involved in the conflict probably isn’t as good an idea as it sounds.
Posted by: Fred777 | Jul 20 2023 15:55 utc | 15
I think that's why US is so keen to keep the lines, at least, frozen. Allows them to keep spinning a bad situation while they think of a next move that won't immediately show the world they are a paper tiger.
Their direct involvement might just rip their mask off and reveal that they are in a terrible state of decay, led by elitist idiots who have no better ideas that to cosplay WW2 or even more stupidly, Iraq.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 20 2023 16:11 utc | 22
Re: weak propaganda
U.s. military privatized + 'defunded', illegally, when surrendered data, misappropriated funds
The two generals in pentagon otherday reading moa are highest ranking, names are... &...
Pentagon's conflict-of-interest policy criminal violation for advisory board members and panels as related to Reid
Spent casings
"Privet" (привет) how to say 'hello' in Russia
America's children need Russian insulin
Gop wastes entire day debating about the politicians child and not politicians
Posted by: Merlin | Jul 20 2023 16:13 utc | 23
Think about this. Both in Malvinas war of 1982 and in gulf war of 1991, British first and Americans later on, imposed 200 miles embargo no ship and no fly zone just like that so much so that even Russian foreign minister was prohibited to negotiate with Iraq for peaceful resolution by no fly zone.
Russia has had no guts to impose no fly zone even in Black Sea which Russia has a right to do especially after her prime costly assets like Moscow, or gas pipe line of kerch bridge were bombed by English cowards who jump only because england is a concubine of USA
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 16:14 utc | 24
so the KIA/wounded ratio is now what ? measured in metres. 1 per metre, 2 per metre?
Posted by: hankster | Jul 20 2023 16:16 utc | 25
Lies are all the Ukrainians have to work with. As for NATO, lies is their standard operating procedure. Corrupt, dishonest, deceitful.
Posted by: JustTruth | Jul 20 2023 16:17 utc | 26
Is it too much to ask of the trolls on this post to at least post comments with a modicum of coherency and the appearance of intelligence thought? The trolling is markedly pedestrian today, not up to the standards usually seen on MoA.
Posted by: Mike R | Jul 20 2023 16:23 utc | 27
@ Sam | Jul 20 2023 16:14 utc | 25
Russia has had no guts to impose no fly zone even in Black Sea which Russia has a right to do
...and they did. It is 70 nautical miles from the most southern-western tip of Crimea and a Kerch bridge. It is in my opinion not enough, but there must be a reason why it is like that, true. And of course, let us not forget that nothing flies over Ukraine. It is pretty big no-fly zone, right?
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 16:24 utc | 28
Slavyangrad
NabrezhnyeIntel:
" The enemy has been on the counterattack in Kleshcheyvka since May 8th - only a little bit before the fall of Artemovsk (May 20). The Armed Forces of Ukraine sent their most elite units in the beginning: 3rd Assault Brigade "Azov", 5th Assault Brigade, and the 44th Artillery Brigade, supported by a couple dozen territorial brigades. The AFU tactic is: send in human wave of mobilised, weaken Russian defenses, and then send their elite soldiers in to take trenches and whatnot.
The enemy has in total gained ground amounting to 3.5KM, as we speak, the most important heights remain under the control of the RF Armed Forces. The enemy gained this at the cost of nearly 100 armored vehicles, nearly 40 tanks, 27 artillery systems, 7 MLRS. And more importantly, their most elites: nearly 2/3 of the 3rd Azov is wiped out, and 1/3 of the 5th assault brigade is wiped out. But territorial defense brigades are being wiped out completely; daily.
And this is only in the Kleshcheyvka - Kurdyumivka area, not including Berkhova or other areas in Artemovsk where the enemy is counterattacking. It is impossible to correctly calculate how many AFU personnel have been lost, but it's definitely surpassed a few thousand by now."
https://tgstat.com/channel/@Slavyangrad
Adding up all the areas around Artemovsk in equipment the losses won't be that far off what they have lost in the South.
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 20 2023 16:24 utc | 29
Not a bad one from Martin Jay above. Foreign Affairs has always been a little window on what the ruling class is thinking in the US.
Their writing since the war on Russia began gives one an idea of the state of decline. It's gone from extreme delusion to the current still deluded realization that this isn't going to be as easy as it looked.
Anderson Cooper's reaction to the comments of Cornel West recently is like a distillation in miniature of their mental decline.
As a wise guy here said: they painted themselves into a corner.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 20 2023 16:33 utc | 30
NATO has proven itself to be an offensive organization. A cursory examination of its history demonstrates this fact.
Evidently, the average "Westerner" is fooled into believing otherwise. And he won't bother to think about or look into NATO history.
Yugoslavia, Libya, Iraq, Somalia, where else? There are many more.
Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Jul 20 2023 16:43 utc | 31
Low grade trolls today.
The factor that western “analysis” always lacks is that Ukraine must advance and win fairly large victories while Russia has much more space to wait it out. The requirements for Kiev are primarily political and foreign, due to material dependency. The same reason that Kiev had to attempt a southern assault even though almost anyone could have predicted it would fail in any scenario except the Russians running away.
Granted, the factor is slowly creeping into the western narrative, perhaps with the realization that there’s 80,000 km2 that Kiev needs to capture to realize its stated goals. But it’s a weird sort of realization that comes with apparent surprise that Russia would do things like install minefields or fight back.
Posted by: Lex | Jul 20 2023 16:52 utc | 32
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 15:37 utc | 5
#############
Usually, Glowies and FED posters take some time to build credibility before posting the absolutely insane stuff they use to discredit groups and communities.
Slow.Your.Roll.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 20 2023 16:55 utc | 33
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jul 20 2023 15:58 utc | 18
The Ukranazi claims remind me of Syria in 2011-13 when the Syrian government kept on claiming to have "liberated" towns when all it had really done was send in byroops who would drive in and as soon as the requisite claim was made, drive out again.
But Syria still gained the upper hand....
Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jul 20 2023 16:57 utc | 34
Any question asking about believing propaganda or manipulative narratives on behalf of Ukrainians...well the same can be asked of Americans, "why are they addicted to being lied to?"
I finally met a not-online person who thinks what we are being fed about Ukraine is weak propaganda at best. He was thrilled to meet anyone who agreed with him, all his friend/acquaintances think he is nuts. All my friends/acquaintances think I am nuts too but they thought that before this war. His reached his conclusions without any online sources to guide him, had simply assumed contrary info was Russian language only.
Really, seriously. Americans believe they are invincible and the only reason anyone would believe otherwise is mental illness.
Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 20 2023 16:59 utc | 36
The aim of the counter-offensive was to reach the Sea of Azov, some 100 kilometer south of the frontline. At the current speed it would take the Ukrainian army 1,000 days (and many more soldiers and material than it has) to reach it.
People can't fight wars on a timeline. A statement like this is pointless since progression is never linear for any long time.
Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jul 20 2023 17:00 utc | 37
gottlieb, let me reassure you NATO has no hope in a false flag or nukes either.
First, by having materiel supplies drained off and destroyed in Ukraine, a false flag just gives license to wipe out world capitals and military bases with little hope of meaningful retaliation in return. Second, by dint of degradation of post-Cold War readiness and smaller supply, there's no guarantee all missiles will fire, let alone no pockets of humanity surviving. Further Third, any Fanonist elites (thinking they need to de-populate "useless eaters" through nuclear holocaust) are well known and marked, as are their nuclear bunkers, and with modern hypersonic missiles no longer guaranteed safety. Even if not penetrated, irradiated beyond hope of escape is enough of a stake upon their chosen shelter-turned-grave.
The Western Elite-holes' loss is total, complete, without hope of reversal. Even their Media organs are flailing for credibility, as their Banks scream for influx liquidity to juggle the plates a moment longer. Their time is done, hence their desperation running that centegenerian monster, voice of The Powers That Be (Kissinger), to raise the flag of parley.
Posted by: titmouse | Jul 20 2023 17:00 utc | 38
For the first time and openly RSD449 Tupolev Tu-214SR doomsday plane, makes rounds around Murmansk. I have never seen that before. WTF.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 17:07 utc | 39
” Every day we advance several hundred meters.”
The Ukes are not really lying. They’re just leaving out the part where they retreat several hundred meters every night. I think they learned that power of partial truth from western presstitutes and marketing slime.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 20 2023 17:09 utc | 40
Remylind:
The Russian army is conducting a powerful offensive near Donetsk: the enemy was driven out of Wessely and from positions near Kamenka
▪️Enemy military analysts are reporting a serious advance by our troops east of Avdiivka. During the offensive, Russian armored groups were able to significantly penetrate the defenses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
▪️Our attack aircraft regained control of the previously lost village of Vesyoloye and a fortress northwest of the village of Kamenka.
▪️Then the Russian troops advanced along the forest belt. The fights continue.
Also, At the settlement of Kamenskoe Russians attack from 3 directions.
https://t.me/s/remylind21
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 20 2023 17:19 utc | 41
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 15:37 utc | 5
Russia certainly is NOT winning.
Neither is the other side.
The objective of war is not to win.
It's not to lose.
Russia is a joke now, aways retreating.
Funny way to retreat, eating up Ukraine as they go along.
British bomb Russia with impunity and instead of killing English plotters,
There we agree. Someone needs to plant a khinzal right on the houses of parliament.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 20 2023 17:21 utc | 42
In The Telegraph yesterday:
Russia’s losses are far higher than anyone could have believed - Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, July 19, 2023Putin’s meatgrinder tactics have taken a horrendous toll
In May, I warned that Russia’s losses were far higher than we had been led to believe. Everything – from Putin’s meatgrinder tactics to the drone-derived pinpoint accuracy of Ukrainian ordnance - suggested as much. Moscow’s claimed losses of a few thousand were always blatant propaganda. They’ve now been blown apart....
I do not know what anyone in the West could have believed, but the Western media – and Wikipedia – claim that Russia has lost over 200,000 men killed in action. So what is Hamish de Bretton-Gordon claiming? That Russia lost a million men?
The article is behind a paywall, so I cannot check. But if anyone wants to find out, The Telegraph is now offering one month for free, if you register.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jul 20 2023 17:24 utc | 43
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 16:14 utc | 25
Declaring a no fly zone over the black sea would entail actively shooting down NATO planes. Do you think that could have unfortunate consequences?
Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 20 2023 17:26 utc | 44
2. Maybe Ukraine is really on its last legs - and maybe not - but the Ukrainian army is no joke. Do you think the Russians built all those layered defenses all the way back to and even including Crimea because they needed the exercise?? Certainly the Russian leadership respects the Ukrainian military.
No, I don't think they did it because they need the exercise, but I also don't think they did it just to destroy the ragtag remnants of Ukraine's pig-fucking pathetic army. The Russian's are expecting something more to come at them.
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 17:28 utc | 45
, Russia bombs Odessa where most of population is Russian!
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 15:37 utc | 5
Even Ukraine said there were no casualties from the recent port bombings.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 17:31 utc | 46
>> At the current speed it would take the Ukrainian army 1,000 days (and many more soldiers and material than it has) to reach it.
A lot longer if they keep losing 10-20 % of men & equipment every month.
Posted by: Marvin | Jul 20 2023 17:31 utc | 47
Titmouse @ the current 38
I agree 100%. Hence my last sentence:
"I don't want to believe we're ruled by the insane, but I also know that is wishful thinking."
Posted by: gottlieb | Jul 20 2023 17:34 utc | 48
Old Hippy,
I have been marching against US wars all my life this war by the US of Assholes has blown me away. All the anti war people I knew with the exception of 2 bought the anti Russia anti China hook line and sinker. They will all march behind Biden to WW3 it is just nuts. I really do not know what is wrong with americans.
Posted by: susan | Jul 20 2023 17:42 utc | 49
@ Petri Krohn | Jul 20 2023 17:24 utc | 43
So what is Hamish de Bretton-Gordon claiming?
He is exactly the same as Simon Tisdall. White trash with the reach, thinking they do it for fatherland or what. No differences there with Lord Haw-Haw.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 17:42 utc | 50
Jörgen Hassler | Jul 20 2023 17:26 utc | 44
"Declaring a no fly zone over the black sea would entail actively shooting down NATO planes. Do you think that could have unfortunate consequences?"
You think if Russia publicly declared a no-fly zone that NATO would violate it, making the gamble that Russia was bluffing and would back down? I doubt it.
(Of course Russia's declaration would have to be credible, and they'd have to be steeled to enforce it if necessary. But it's already looking like the empire is accepting the credibility of the "no-shipping zone".)
So I'd think the question about consequences ought to be one that the empire would be asking itself.
Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Jul 20 2023 17:44 utc | 51
'In The Telegraph yesterday:
Russia’s losses are far higher than anyone could have believed - Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, July 19, 2023
Putin’s meatgrinder tactics have taken a horrendous toll.'
Hilarious. I actually paid a (cut-price) sub to read the online version for a few months. The amount of home-spun poorly-knitted pro-Ukraine garbage about the war became so insufferable I cancelled by subscription.
Mercouris slags off Telegraph journalists regularly in his podcasts, and I agree with him. The Telegraph, BTW used to be a quality, but conservative newspaper. Now it's just another rag.
Recently, Hamish de Idiot Gonzo said that the 14 Challenger tanks in the Ukraine would plough through the Russian defence lines like a hot knife through butter. I think that tells you all you need to know about him...
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 17:44 utc | 52
Posted by: Roger | Jul 20 2023 15:41 utc | 9
The economic consequences of the provoked attack on Russia (by such 'unprovoked invasion of Ukraine by Russia') - in form of destroying the natural gas pipelines, and others massive sanctions, such as freezing 300 B dollars, confiscating properties, and - in form of military provocations (TMTC - too many to count) are now becoming a boomerang in the West, especially in Germany. Yesterday there was - to my surprise - a report from Berlin on PBS Newshour, which illustrates this predicament, only 8 minutes. Europe with Germany failing is Europe failing. The house of cards is dangerously shaking.
Germany’s role as economic powerhouse at tipping point amid recession | PBS NewsHour
Posted by: fanto | Jul 20 2023 17:51 utc | 53
It’s the story of the king with invisible robes.
The rubes all were told only the wise could see such fancy cloth.
Until one little boy b, pointed and said I can see his bottom!
Ps. Don’t feed the trolls
Posted by: DunGroanin | Jul 20 2023 17:54 utc | 54
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jul 20 2023 17:24 utc | 43
archive.ph comes in handy.
Posted by: Jax | Jul 20 2023 17:59 utc | 55
@ Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 17:44 utc | 52
Hamish de Bottom Grinder ain’t a journalist.
He is a naughty little spook, from the spook Tank Brigade who has been at the centre of every chemical crap in Syria to Novichok in Salisbury !
He is just a very naughty boy.
Telegraph and Mail still just about employ some journalists but also loads of PR/Mockingbird cuckoos. The media is almost wholly what this proxy war has been concealed by and why the rubes believe every single fairytale of who are the good guys and who the bad and certainly of all the ugly establishment.
@ Tom re real science. That is my actual point and consistent position not the narrative science.
Posted by: DunGroanin | Jul 20 2023 18:04 utc | 56
Recently, Hamish de Idiot Gonzo said that the 14 Challenger tanks in the Ukraine would plough through the Russian defence lines like a hot knife through butter.
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 17:44 utc | 52
With any luck Hamish will be in one.
Posted by: dh | Jul 20 2023 18:06 utc | 57
The trolls have their tropes to trot out at the opening bell of course. Do not feed the nisse.
Again (sorry if I missed a reply as I do not read everything) but if anyone knows where to find Yuri P.'s daily analysis with subtitles, that would be awesome.
I have come to a mental view that there will be no true or possible negotiation with the west-ukr until Avdiivka is taken. There are too many dead civilians, especially children via their arty. Of course there are quite possibly several other places or logistics that also must occur before true negotiations start.
And questions arise, how does de-mining occur in the winter. Slower? Harder locating the pesky buggers? A drone that burrows under snow and locates and then backs off and another drone with a small round to be delivered to neutralize. A few years off, hopefully we will still be alive then.
Posted by: paxmark1 | Jul 20 2023 18:09 utc | 58
Sam, Sam, Sam.
Go on believing everybody in Russia is stupid, and should feel bad about themselves.
I do not think leaders of the collective West think Russia is stupid.
This is the kind of language reserved for public 24 hour spin cycle.
Reality is - NATO or collective West made a decision to engage Russia militarily before it gets militarily too powerful to tackle.
It is not about Ukraine. To the current regime supported only by a tiny Zelenski clan and West Ukrainian nationalists — majority of Ukrainians are disposable. Even desirable to exterminate. Collective West gets it, and facilitates this population re-engineering,
NATO leading actiors, UK and US, have plenty of depth and can thrown into this Poles, Belorussians, and if need be Germans. And at tge end, pick up the pieces like at the end of WWII.
But it is not WWII, and Russia is not alone. In WWII Russia not inly managed to take Berlin, and to send nearly two million people to belp China force Japan out of Manchuria. Japan had there nearly two million soldiers. Japan wanted to surrender to Soviet Union but US nukes changed their mind,
Russia and the rest of the world understand the nature of Western agressiveness and have to work on a number of fronts to sliw down and derail the latest incarnation of Drang nach Osten.
It is not WWII. It is actually WWIV, as III ended 2014.
No rush. Hopefully Western urge to conquer Russia
will be checked by common sense. Or by American conservatives getting their act together post Trump debacle, post elite delravities and systemic corruption. There is a small chance, Europe can be safely written off.
Posted by: Bianca | Jul 20 2023 18:10 utc | 59
here's a link to other idiot who drove me away from the DT - Richard Kemp.
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 18:13 utc | 60
Liveuamap is quite obsolete. Ukrainian deepstatemap is much more precise and usually updated within 24H.
According to deepstatemap ukrainiens advanced around 9 kilometres on Velika Novosylka frontline, drection from Novopil towards Pryiutne...and this is including nomans land zone
Posted by: cuky | Jul 20 2023 18:17 utc | 61
He and his accomplishes will not be getting paid if this charade is not continued. This smoke & mirror show is at last legs.
Posted by: KD | Jul 20 2023 18:34 utc | 62
"The Telegraph, BTW used to be a quality, but conservative newspaper. Now it's just another rag."
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 17:44 utc | 52
What , There's no such thing as state money only tax payers money that Telegraph ? Government finances are like of a household that Telegraph ? Government debt is like private sector debt that Telegraph ? Interest rates have to rise to fight inflation that Telegraph ? The government has run out of £'s that Telegraph ?
Higher wage demands associated with full employment and/or stronger imports associated with higher fiscal deficits lead to external imbalances due to rising imports and loss of competitiveness in international markets (eroding export potential). In a system of flexible exchange rates, the currency begins to lose value relative to all other currencies and the rising import prices (in terms of the local currency) are passed-through to the domestic price level – with accelerating inflation being the result. If governments persist in pursuing domestic full employment policies the domestic inflation worsens and the hyperinflation is the result, with a chronically depreciated currency. Real standards of living fall and a general malaise overwhelms the nation and its citizens that Telegraph ?
They've been a rag for decades. Full to the brim with the above myths and nothing but a newsletter for the City of London. It should be called the bankers spunk stain.
For decades promoted the the 15 fatal fallacies of financial fundamentalism as absolute truths:
https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.95.3.1340
That Telegraph. That only ever asks " how are we going to pay for it " when it is something that improves people s lives or helps the poor. Quality paper my arse.
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 20 2023 18:36 utc | 63
whirlX @ 39
Putin was just in Murmansk to inspect facilities, I think oil platform factories. In these times I guess the doomsday plane must follow him around.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 20 2023 18:36 utc | 64
"The Telegraph, BTW used to be a quality, but conservative newspaper. Now it's just another rag."Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 17:44 utc | 52
---
You're reading it wrong. Its satire is unsurpassed.
Posted by: too scents | Jul 20 2023 18:39 utc | 65
I keep wondering what keeps Ukranians together as a nation when they see failure of leadership day after day. Is it a nation actually ? Or is it just a group of self serving modern day GenZs who are infatuated with modern gadgetry 24x7 who have lost all the conscience and fellow feelings! Do they not feel loss of their bloodlines?
Posted by: KD | Jul 20 2023 18:40 utc | 66
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jul 20 2023 17:24 utc | 43
Surprisingly the Telegraph published a (relatively) realistic article the day before Hamish deBG's fantasy piece.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/18/ukraine-and-the-west-are-facing-a-devastating-defeat/
I don't have a link to any archived copy but it can be read without paying by googling it and clicking on cached.
Nothing in it is any suprise to MofA readers but it must be a revelation to people who are only fed the 'Russia is losing' narrative.
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 20 2023 18:42 utc | 67
I keep wondering what keeps Ukranians together as a nation when they see failure of leadership day after day. Is it a nation actually ? Or is it just a group of self serving modern day GenZs who are infatuated with modern gadgetry 24x7 who have lost all the conscience and fellow feelings! Do they not feel loss of their bloodlines?
Posted by: KD | Jul 20 2023 18:40 utc | 66
Half of them left. So all that is left are those willing to fight, or those too poor to leave.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 18:42 utc | 68
"Why do General Syrskyi and Colonel Urshalovych think they can fool the Ukrainian people and their soldiers with such weak propaganda talk?"
Because it works. Cannon fodder are just that - cannon fodder. Watching the Ukroids marching like zombies into minefields... I talk to the people about me, all fully believe the narrative. None read history, none understand that what is occurring in the west is the decadence and debauchery of the collapsing Anglo empire. If told to do so, they will all march to their deaths like the Ukroids.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 20 2023 18:43 utc | 69
Because if Ukrainian families knew the extent ...
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 15:29 utc | 3
They do know the extent of the killings, they just have their heads too far up their Nazi asses to understand that Zelensky is a con-artist concocted in DC and Russians are human beings, not animals. After sending 350,000 of their own young men into the Russian meat grinder, to keep their sanity, Ukrainians have to believe their pure, noble cause is worth it or they would have to confront their own criminality.
Posted by: Turk 152 | Jul 20 2023 18:44 utc | 70
The READERS of the Telegraph ARE the problem. Allowing themselves to be hypnotised by a bankers spunk stain. Stupid enough to fall for the bankers propaganda. Who all still live in a gold standard, fixed exchange rate world. Forced down their throats by the City of London.
Why they get away with it. It was NEVER a quality newspaper. Because of the Ukraine war some long term readers are finally waking up to this fact.
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 20 2023 18:45 utc | 71
After a month and a half of no gains and unbearable loses they brag about meters of ground taken. What's next? Centimeters?
Posted by: nook | Jul 20 2023 18:49 utc | 72
@ LightYearsFromHome | Jul 20 2023 18:36 utc | 64
Yes, sure I get that, but flying with transponder on? That is not usual.
Btw. at the other side of RF, Alaska, two or more simultaneous USAF AWACS got up. Again I see something nasty happening, kind of.
We will see what the propaganda sells.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 18:49 utc | 73
titmouse @ 38
Their time is done, hence their desperation running that centegenerian monster, voice of The Powers That Be (Kissinger), to raise the flag of parley.
The Chinese are exceptionally polite but behind the scenes they must be cracking up. 330 million Americans and all the Empire can find to try and get China's attention is a 100y/o diplomat from a long abandoned era of diplomacy. All the USA has got with any diplomatic credibility is a 100y/o war criminal vainglorious has-been, so unreal it's surreal - Clown World spins out of control.
http://zippythepinhead.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/2018/images/082318.gif
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 20 2023 18:50 utc | 74
LOL, in the past hour a new piece by Hamish deBG says that Russia might win the war after all, apparently by blocking Ukraine's grain export (I haven't read it in full - there's a limit to how much fantasy my brain can take).
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/07/20/vladimir-putins-new-weapon-could-win-him-the-war/
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 20 2023 18:53 utc | 75
Old Hippy,
I have been marching against US wars all my life this war by the US of Assholes has blown me away. All the anti war people I knew with the exception of 2 bought the anti Russia anti China hook line and sinker. They will all march behind Biden to WW3 it is just nuts. I really do not know what is wrong with americans.
Posted by: susan | Jul 20 2023 17:42 utc | 49
Me too. We probably have met.
Obama mostly getting a pass opened my eyes.
But there was before that, the Democratic primaries of 2004. Oh we all hated Bush, but the only peace candidates, out of 18, iirc, in the primaries, were Dean, Kucinich, and Gravel. And when I caucused, only the Kucinich people cared about getting out of Iraq, the rest of them had their usual issues.
Oh yeah, Kerry brought in busloads of old folks home people, and none of them were even willing to talk. They alone had the majority at my caucus.
Libya was with OWS, the anti-war message drowned out by other causes, but there.
No boots on the ground in Syria, he said. Soon there was no debate in US at all about war, and US just told its citizens who they were bombing.
And now the left is a nightmare. I never imagined that the loss of freedom in America could get this steep. I mean, i cant do business, or even creative work, without Ukrainian flags everywhere I used to engage in.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 18:55 utc | 76
whirlX @ 73
For 16 months the USA has tried to control the escalation provoking the Kremlin to take the bait and start making mistakes that would prove opportune for NATO. The Russians were too smart and professional for that but they were on the back foot for the last 16 months. Now they seem to be back in stride and from a position of strength they are escalating on their terms forcing NATO to make mistakes. Maybe the next move is ridding their skies of AWACS?
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 20 2023 18:56 utc | 77
A functionary of post-2014 Ukraine does not care who believes something, the important thing is that it is silently "accepted". The political opposition is banned, arrested,...
In the military there is traditionally little, it is a hierarchy.
Opportunists do not look back. What do I care about my yesterday's chatter?
It would be more interesting to analyze the psyche of people like the Ukie Chief of Staff.
How many people could you force to their death?
2014 has brought the Ukrainian dregs to the top.
Posted by: 600w | Jul 20 2023 18:56 utc | 78
Is this really Peter AU1 | Jul 20 2023 18:43 utc | 69 back talking about zombies and such?
Welcome back mate!
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 20 2023 19:00 utc | 79
Peter AU1 | Jul 20 2023 18:43 utc | 69
So happy to see you posting again after your long absence. Your voice is sorely missed - and much needed. Thank you for making time to be here.
Posted by: Mexicana | Jul 20 2023 19:08 utc | 81
susan @ 49
I have been marching against US wars all my life this war by the US of Assholes has blown me away. All the anti war people I knew with the exception of 2 bought the anti Russia anti China hook line and sinker. They will all march behind Biden to WW3 it is just nuts. I really do not know what is wrong with americans.
I said at the beginning of the SMO that it's some sort of trigger word, a lifetime of media indoctrination sure but something subliminal too, February 2022 it was released into the jingoistic spin across the west and most of the lemmings left or right, peacenik or warmonger, lined up and marched. I felt like the Kevin McCarthy character in Invasion Of The Body Snatchers.
I'm not being facetious either, it was like all at once, in one instance, no deliberation, and not just in yellow ribbon support the troops USA but across "skeptical" and "educated" Europe.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 20 2023 19:11 utc | 82
At this point, Ukr propaganda is aimed at the choir. Keep them motivated and sending money and arms. Probably the most important audience are American lawmakers to keep the money spigot turned on. They more than anybody just wants to hear about dead Russians. One pundit noted that American lawmakers are in all likelihood getting their news about the Ukr not from any security briefings but from Western mass media outlets.
Posted by: Erelis | Jul 20 2023 19:16 utc | 83
Take the AFU combat infantry recruits, and be honest with them.
"Look to the soldier on your right, now look to the soldier on your left."
The AFU advances steadily to the point whereat every combat veteran with a year or more's experience will have met the following specification.
"Now understand that out of the three of you, on average one will get killed in action, one will get wounded so seriously that they get put out of commission, and the third will be left with the mental and physical scars of having barely survived."
That will become the reality for the core of the AFU's most capable veteran troops. And they'll know that back home things are far from good, and the only ones doing well are those who are taking part in the well known graft and corruption. They'll understand that their Slavic brethren across the front line have it much better, and that their families, back in homes within Russia, have it pretty good.
They'll know the true situation on the ground, and they'll understand that they're getting killed and maimed so Zelenskyy can better fill his begging cup as he goes down the line and swears to his supposed allies in the West that Ukraine is defeating Russia's forces.
They'll know that Zelenskyy and his clique don't get their tailored fatigues dirty and sweat soaked, and instead of rolling in the mud and across barbed wire and mine fields, they are rolling in the dough, and at bed time sliding their bodies across silk sheets.
You can BS the folks at home, and the Western media, about how the war is going, but you can't BS the combat vets who've had to carry their buddies broken bodies back from yet another foolish assault against the unbreakable Russian lines.
Paths of Glory (3/11) Movie CLIP - Charging the Ant Hill (1957) HD
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 20 2023 19:17 utc | 84
Russia has had no guts to impose no fly zone even in Black Sea which Russia has a right to do especially after her prime costly assets like Moscow, or gas pipe line of kerch bridge were bombed by English cowards who jump only because england is a concubine of USA
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 16:14 utc | 25
Now that Russia has pretty much wiped out the Ukr air force I'm looking forward to F16s & F35s joining the fray.
Posted by: Mary | Jul 20 2023 19:25 utc | 85
What is the "Ukraine"?
I keep wondering what keeps Ukranians together as a nation when they see failure of leadership day after day. Is it a nation actually ? Or is it just a group of self serving modern day GenZs who are infatuated with modern gadgetry 24x7 who have lost all the conscience and fellow feelings! Do they not feel loss of their bloodlines?Posted by: KD | Jul 20 2023 18:40 utc | 66
Ukraine is not a nation. It is a racist theory about the inferiority of the Russian people.
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jul 20 2023 19:34 utc | 86
Not strictly on topic, but not unrelated.
BBC website running a lengthy story about Ben Wallace's view that "Ukraine has 'tragically become a battle lab' for war technology..."
He describes lessons learned from the conflict, including the need to change defence procurement must change as "traditional, often decades-long programmes to get equipment" are now outpaced by innovation.
He says that analysing the strategies playing out in Ukraine would help "make sure that we can be match fit for any future conflict".
IMO this is the unmistakably the language of the defeated.
Link
Posted by: Badger | Jul 20 2023 19:38 utc | 87
@ LightYearsFromHome | Jul 20 2023 18:56 utc | 77
Maybe the next move is ridding their skies of AWACS?
Well, they did that before when they had some mutual agreement with NATO, 'The Free Skies' or something.
Point is, we await on how NATO is going to react to the Black Sea closure, at the line Constanta to Batumi, Georgia.
It is a 1100 km long straight line, that is off-line atm. So halving the Black Sea like that is a pretty nightmarish for NATO.
That would be a bold font front-page news in the old days.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 19:41 utc | 88
When will we start seeing battalion level surrenders like we did in Summer 2022 ?
Posted by: Exile | Jul 20 2023 19:44 utc | 89
@87 Ben Wallace should have learned the lesson long ago. Don't poke the bear.
Posted by: dh | Jul 20 2023 19:50 utc | 90
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 15:37 utc | 5
‘Russia certainly is NOT winning. Russia is a joke now, aways retreating…..’
That’s not very good propaganda Sam old chap. For propaganda to be effective it has to be at least somewhat believable.
Posted by: Áobh O’Sheachnasaigh | Jul 20 2023 19:50 utc | 91
Posted by: Sam | Jul 20 2023 15:48 utc | 12
‘Yes, I can guess that you are a western agent who do says things in support of Putin and idiot lavrov's action. Only enemy of Russia would support Putin's folly now. Cassad and his type patriots were far sighted to recognise incompetency of Putin team 7 D chess - my foot! A great Army like Russian's has been humiliated by that incompetent team.’
LOL! Excellent entertainment value. It’s true that bad jokes can be funny. Your propaganda comedy is so bad it’s hilarious. Dude, keep ‘em coming!
Posted by: Áobh O’Sheachnasaigh | Jul 20 2023 20:18 utc | 92
Áobh O’Sheachnasaigh | Jul 20 2023 19:50 utc | 91
Para a mentira ser segura
E atingir profunfidade
Há-de trazer à mistura
Um pouquinho de verdade
(António Aleixo)
For the lie to be safe
And reach depth
You have to bring it into the mix
A little bit of truth
Posted by: Antonio Ferrao | Jul 20 2023 20:21 utc | 93
Russia’s losses are far higher than anyone could have believed - Hamish de Bretton-Gordon, July 19, 2023
A closer read reveals that he is claiming 55,000 Killed and the rest wounded. I commented on the DT that they had reported months ago that 200,000 had been killed. In fact 55,000 dead may be accurate. The DT failed to mention that UAF losses must be 3 to 5 times those of Russia given their firepower disadvantage. But this guy Hamish is a total clown. And the DT cannot even keep its so-called facts straight.
Posted by: marcjf | Jul 20 2023 20:23 utc | 94
psycho and james, thanks for the good words. I'm not doing so well at the moment but b's question....
Susan summed it up well
"I have been marching against US wars all my life this war by the US of Assholes has blown me away. All the anti war people I knew with the exception of 2 bought the anti Russia anti China hook line and sinker. They will all march behind Biden to WW3 it is just nuts. I really do not know what is wrong with americans."
I see the same in the people about me.
I watched a video of Ukroids in a minefield some weeks back. Every time one took a step they had their foot or leg blown off.
Speaking to my sister over the past months has made me realize how devoid of reality most humanoids in the west are. They live in some barbie doll fantasy land.
Due to my health and the username usurpers I won't be commenting here much.
Mexicana, thanks - I do not recognize your username but there are many that have read for a long time without commenting.
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 20 2023 20:27 utc | 95
Posted by: Peter AU1 | Jul 20 2023 20:27 utc | 95
best wishes to you.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 20 2023 20:30 utc | 96
Posted by: marcjf | Jul 20 2023 20:23 utc | 94
That 55k may be close to the truth. Indeed 6 months ago British PRopaganda was claiming 200k.
Yet, far higher than expected.
Meanwhile, the British Challenger tanks which Hamish said will plow through defenses like knife through butter, are defending the 2nd line of AFU defense in Lvov.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 20:31 utc | 97
When will we start seeing battalion level surrenders like we did in Summer 2022 ?Posted by: Exile | Jul 20 2023 19:44 utc | 89
A few days ago Slavyangrad wrote a group of 40 surrendering in Zaporozhye direction. Everything needs to be done very discreetly and finesly, otherwise the Azov will shoot them in the back. There was also a video of two guys running to the Russian trench and jumping in while Kraken was shooting at them.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 20:39 utc | 98
Meanwhile, the British Challenger tanks which Hamish said will plow through defenses like knife through butter, are defending the 2nd line of AFU defense in Lvov.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 20:31 utc | 97
I'm sure Hamish has the answer to that. As soon as the plucky UAF troops break through the Russian lines and the F16s arrive those Challengers will plow through to Sebastopol.
Posted by: dh | Jul 20 2023 20:43 utc | 99
Re: Russian missile strike on Odessa
From the various media stories about the strike, the Ukrainians claim that 'one elderly man' was injured when debris from a shot-down missile struck his house. This indicates to me that 'the elderly man'- or civilians in general- were not the target of the strike; if civilians had been the intended target no doubt the casualties would be numerous even allowing for the number of missiles claimed to have been shot down by the Ukrainians.
I, for one, think at least some civilian injuries are entirely plausible- even probable- but at the same time Kiev lost its credibility with me a long time ago when they rolled out and doubled down on the 'Ghost of Kiev' tale. Then we had the 'hot sniper girls' making the rounds of Tik Tok and the like (who turned out to be Azov-affiliated), and most recently we have the 'Tomato Jar Woman of Kiev' allegedly bringing down a Russian drone with said improvised weapon. At this point I rarely trust anything the Ukrainians claim.
Posted by: John S | Jul 20 2023 20:50 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
The Ukrainians have to keep the propaganda cycle going - reality is not important.
Posted by: Wilhelm Kohl | Jul 20 2023 15:23 utc | 1