Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 10, 2023
Ukraine SitRep: ‘Mosquito’ Tactics – S-200 Land Attacks

The U.S./NATO doctrine, as it had been taught to the Ukrainian units that were prepared for the counter-offensive, has failed.

As a comment allegedly made on a forum of veterans of the West Point Academy describes it:

Classic attacks under our combat regulations involve the preliminary suppression and destruction of enemy defensive positions by artillery and aircraft, as well as the simultaneous destruction of its combat controls to the depth of the defense zone and the prevention of the approaches of its reserves. Since Ukrainians have almost no aviation and they are significantly inferior to the Russians in the amount of artillery, classic attacks lead to nothing but a massive loss of expensive military equipment on the way to Russian positions, disorganization and demoralization of attackers with subsequent retreat. Almost three weeks of such attacks could not break through the Russian support band, in addition, as I was told by the G-3 from USAR EUR-AF in Stuttgart, they lost up to a quarter of our Bradleys, and they are now forced to urgently send two companies of Bradleys and a large quantity of other equipment to replenish and restore the combat readiness of two brigades of the Ukrainian strike unit.

When I was in officer school, pre-1991, NATO was less dependent on air-superiority than it is today. We also had some good air defense systems. Our artillery was not superior to the Soviet one but was well layered – from short, medium to long ranged systems – and would have created very significant damages. We also had good pioneer equipment that allowed for the crossing rivers and ditches as well as serious mine fields.

All this changed after the 1991 Gulf war in which U.S. air superiority and tank fist destroyed the Iraqi defense forces. That war was misconstrued as a big win when it in fact was simply the effect of a by far superior professional force over a unmotivated conscript army with old and often defunct weapons.

As an effect of the first Gulf war and later operations in Serbia, Afghanistan and again in Iraq the believe in NATO air-land doctrine was reinforced. Air superiority was the holy grail while the strong land force capabilities atrophied. An emphasis on guerilla suppression and on vehicles that could withstand simple improvised explosive devices (IEDs) in Iraq and Afghanistan further unbalanced the force.

It explains why the Ukrainian troops were miss-trained and miss-equipped for a counter-offensive even when the opposing force was a much harder to crack one than some goat herders from Helmand, Afghanistan.

The Ukrainian combined-arms-warfare units, without air-support and little artillery, were defeated. Western mining equipment failed to clear real 20 kilogram anti-tank mines from the heavy Ukrainian grounds. Armored Ukrainian troops were destroyed in mine fields (video) well before they could reach their targets.

Seeing that the tank heavy concept was failing the Ukrainians switched to a much older and more bloody technic:

In these conditions, our guys, together with Ukrainian commanders, developed tactics of “mosquito” promotion: continuous attacks of Russian positions by small tactical groups of Ukrainian infantry. The Russians, who are much more sensitive to losses in manpower, try to prevent close (“contact”) battles and retreat when Ukrainians reach their trenches, allowing artillery to destroy the enemy. This usually succeeds: Ukrainians die or retreat. But this tactic has a positive effect. Several such attacks almost completely destroy the Russian position, most often with their own fire, after which the Russians are forced to retreat to a new line, where this tactic is repeated. That’s how in two weeks the Russians were pushed back three miles from Makarov’s strategically important position. And this tactic is constantly improving. Our side believe that, at the continuing pace of such progress, in two weeks Ukrainians will be able to overcome the Russian support band and start storming their main line of defense, while maintaining the offensive potential of their strongest brigades. Perhaps that’s what General Milley meant yesterday about the ten weeks of the Ukrainian offensive.

This tactical technique has another important effect. Russians are forced to spend more artillery shells to repel such “mosquito” attacks, the stocks of which they replenish more slowly than they spend. And in two weeks of such battles, they may well approach the depletion of their stocks. Of course, this leads to great losses of Ukrainians but, as I said at the beginning, they are not sensitive to the death of their soldiers. In addition, advances however small are a better justification for their death than unsuccessful attacks. And here, we must admit that the Russians today are much closer to the armies of Western countries than the Ukrainians are in this respect: the Russians take care of their soldiers …

The "mosquito" technic replaces losses in armored vehicles will more heavy losses of infantry. The 128th Mountain Assault Brigade, which had led the fight on the western part of the Zaporozhia front, has just been pull back from the front line because it had lost too many of its soldiers.

After the Russian lost a few trenches to storming Ukrainian troops that did not care for their own losses they modified their own tactic. Its troops still leave the forward trenches when under pressure but they now booby-trap those before taking off. These videos show how Ukrainian troops jump into an empty Russian trench only to be blown up by several small explosions. The Russian's need no artillery to do that. The trenches are kept intact but for a number Ukrainian corpses that can easily be moved aside.

A few days ago the Austrian Colonel Markus Reisner said in an interview (in German) that Ukraine had deployed all but four of its twelve reserve brigades that were supposed to be the armored counter-offensive fist that would defeat Russian defenses. Since than the 116th, 117th, and 118th Mechanized Brigades, part of last reserve, have been deployed near the Zaparozhia front. They will replace the 128th and other units that were mostly destroyed while gaining only a few kilometer in the sparsely inhabited countryside. Half of Milley's ten weeks of counter-offensive operations have passed with no relevant gains for the Ukrainian side. The next five weeks will likely destroy the rest of the battle ready Ukrainian forces.

Another change has been made in long range fire capabilities on the Ukrainian side. Yesterday it launched several S-200 missiles against the Kerch bridge and other Russian targets. The Russian side says that all these attacks were defeated by its air-defense forces.

The S-200 is an air-defense missile first deployed in the mid 1960s. Unlike the Nike-Hercules and S-300 it does not have inherent land attack capabilities. Its original targeting system is unable to steer it towards certain points on the map:

The missile uses radio illumination mid-course correction to fly towards the target with a terminal semi-active radar homing phase.

The Ukrainians, likely with some foreign help, must have developed and tested a completely new targeting system to give the S-200 some land attack capability. Its maximum range of about 300 kilometer is sufficient to attack strategic targets on the Russian side. But even standard Russian air-defenses have no problem with it.

That this was even tried, shows again the hybris of western military thinking. Like 80 years ago there is still a believe that Russia is, economically and militarily, incapable of defending itself. Please read Conor Gallagher's latest piece on this:

Underestimate Russia at Your Own Risk: A Comparison of Hubris by Germany During WWII and Today’s Collective West

NATO's doctrine is still depending on air-superiority. It lacks infantry and good tanks. It constantly underestimates Russian capabilities.

How would the real fight look if it had to overcome the superior Russian air-defenses while depending itself on system like the very expensive Patriot with a poor record of hitting anything but its own forces?

Comments

Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 11 2023 10:56 utc | 198
I knew about US GMC trucks in Red Army, I dont know about boots and socks but,
I fail to see where those were used especially tanks and airplanes …
We still dont have pictures of Russian Shermans taking German cities nor Soviet B25 bombing German positions. May be soviet censorship?

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 11 2023 11:13 utc | 201

Re: Barfleas
Notice how on weekends we get the hopeless summer intern trolls. During the workweek it’s different. Today, Tuesday early AM, we are getting some talent. Monday must have been a training day.
Did Barflies also notice during the 4.July Holiday week, we only got the loser trolls posting ? The senior level trolls were on vacation.

Posted by: Exile | Jul 11 2023 11:23 utc | 202

Russians have long memories and if they take all of the black sea they will then deal with Erdogan
Echo Chamber | Jul 11 2023 10:38 utc | 195
Today, the Black Sea is very unlikely. They have no army on the ground and zero political will to even move the front line at the Donbass borders and away from border regions.
Erdo played the neutral game for elections and for business with Russia. He received more votes, made profit on the grain deal, has stolen grain for Africa, lots of other trade with Russia and other benefits you can find using a simple search on any RU news agency. After elections is a different story. He provides again drones and a drone factory for Ukr and approves Sweden without getting anything from his previous demands, because they were all fakes. Don’t be surprised if he shoots another Russian plane in Syria just for fun. Did Russia shoot one of his planes? Of course not, they pissed their pants and kissed his butt. Hungary will have to do anything Erdo tells them or the Russian resources will be turned off in Turkey.
India is going anti-BRICS and full US slave. They approved US ports, are against a BRICS currency and everything they get almost free from Russia give back to natostan to support their war against Russia. The multipolar joke is getting funnier.

Posted by: rk | Jul 11 2023 11:30 utc | 203

NATO is not losing a war, they have all their soldiers and aircraft , I doubt they are worried at all.
What’s the worst that happens? They lose east Ukraine? They have already said to the last Ukrainian and they ain’t even close yet.
They just Replaced everything Ukraine lost and gave them longer range weapons. It’s an absolute nightmare for the Russians.

Posted by: OohCanada | Jul 11 2023 11:32 utc | 204

My overall opinion is that there is a trend in media coverage to hype the Ukraine conflict into some very big war the like of WWII.
The size of the conflict though is more like a regional conflict with platoon or company size clashes not even engagement at regiment even less division level.
It is under Korean war scale may be like ME battles in the Sinai in 1956 or slightly below.
What is of interest is that Ukrainian side is taking losses at the rate of German 6th army in surrounded Stalingrad for an overall similar sized army (300,000). Which is even worse since they arent surrounded nor deprived of supplies.
Certainly the end of the Ukraine military is nigh.
Question is what will follow?
Russia graciously accepting Minsk 2 at last after heroic resistance from Elensky?
The coalition of the willing enter western Ukraine to save the day?
What kind of comedy will play out: we need a gracious on-TV end?

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 11 2023 11:35 utc | 205

unimperator@186….those are not front line Russian trenches, those are pre dug Ukrainian graves. Maybe Russia is running out of Combat Hearses.
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 11 2023 11:44 utc | 206

Slavyangrad…..
This is really important!
Rostec Deputy CEO Vladimir Artyakov gave an interview to Rossiya-24 TV channel. Let’s go through the main theses:
▪️ The State Defense Order is being fulfilled in full. For some items, we are ahead of schedule, not only in terms of time, but also in terms of quantity.
▪️ On some items the production of combat aircraft has been doubled. These are such aircraft as the Su-30, Su-34 and Su-35. The State Corporation is ready to further increase production volumes.
▪️ 80% of the equipment involved in the Combined Air Defense System is Rostec’s production.
▪️ Kinzhal cannot be intercepted thanks to the technologies used in the missile. Stories about shooting down Kinzhals are lies for the purposes of anti-Russian propaganda. This complex is being mass-produced.
▪️ Rostec is ready to produce ground-based unmanned equipment in the required volume.
▪️ Ansat will fly on domestic VK-650 engines.
▪️ The gas generator system of the PD-8 engine will be used to create a new engine for the Mi-26 helicopter.
▪️ Next year PD-8s will be mass produced. Superjets will be equipped with these engines. In 2024, the aircraft will be fully import-substituted.
▪️ In 2024, the MS-21 will enter serial production and the first 6 machines will be shipped to Aeroflot.
▪️ Rostec is creating conditions for attracting and retaining personnel: from training and professional development to mortgage benefits.
https://t.me/s/Slavyangrad
” How are Russia going to pay for it. ”
NO!
” How are are Russia going to resource it ”
Russia knows fine well Russia has its own currency – the rouble. That means when Putin needs to buy skills and real resources he orders the Russian Central Bank to debit the Russian Treasury account at the central bank and transfer that to the supplier of the skills and real resources. That’s all he needs to do – forever and for as much as he wants to do that.
That causes an overdraft at the central bank which is an asset of the central bank, and that balances the new reserve liability created for the commercial bank of the skills and real resources supplier. That reserve liability at the central bank is an asset of the commercial bank, who then credits a new bank deposit for the skills and real resources supplier. The balance sheets of the central bank, and the commercial bank expand.
The skills and real resources supplier will accept roubles because it needs to pay its workers in roubles. The reason for that is because Putin imposes tax liabilities in roubles on both the skills and real resources supplier and the workers, which if not paid earns them a spell in a Russian jail.
That’s all the ‘confidence’ Russia needs to impose on its people for them to accept roubles – a confident assertion, backed by force, that they will be jailed if they don’t pony up the relevant amount of roubles when they are demanded. To clear the tax liability that has been imposed on them.
Those taxes are collected. Bank deposits are debited, and bank reserves transferred to the Treasury, which eliminates the overdraft asset and the balancing reserves at the central bank. The central bank balance sheet shrinks back down along with the commercial bank. This the taxes collected are destroyed in the process.
There is no need for interest payments. No need for ‘borrowing’. There is nobody who can say no. It all just happens and is perfectly self-sustaining throughout the entire area where Putin can impose his taxes.
By this mechanism, the tax liability drives the rouble. Russia has command over all the physical resources available within its border and can transfer them to the service of the state as required.
Of course early American settlers knew this very well below and would NEVER have fallen for the $billion Satchi and Satchi Marketing campaign in the 80’s that marketed the lie that there is no such thing as state money only tax payers money.
https://neweconomicperspectives.org/2016/02/debt-free-money-part-4-american-colonial-currency.html
The skills and real resources suppliers receive the roubles, which is taxed, they spend that money which is taxed, they pay their staff which is taxed, who spend that money at a shop, which is taxed and so on and so on. Until taxes collected = roubles issued.
Imagine a stone skipping across a pond where every bounce is a transaction and every ripple is taxation.
If you expand that sequence you’ll find that eventually the initial injection of money (G) for the skills and real resources supplier disappears in taxation (T).
Russian Bonds come about when not everybody in the sequence spends all their money – aka saving. There’s been a lot of that recently due to frightened people increasing their rainy day funds, people paying off loans and simple lack of opportunities to spend.
The increase in Savings (S) and decrease in Loans (I) creates a government deficit. A change in net savings in the private sector causes a change in the government sector deficit.
Under the current regime that deficit is swapped for Bonds. Green roubles are swapped for Yellow roubles (bonds), or in the UK Silver Pounds are swapped for Gold Pounds (Gilts).
The Treasury or the Gilt or the Russian bond is just a savings instrument held by somebody who didn’t feel like spending their money right now.
In our stone bouncing sequence above you can imagine the video is paused just after a ripple occurs. A Bond is a pause button in the spending sequence.
Eventually the sunny uplands will return, people will feel less frightened, go to the shops more, and break out the credit card again. And that is like hitting ‘play’ on our sequence. The saved money is then spent at a shop, which is taxed, who pay their staff, which is taxed, who then spend at the shop, which is taxed… The bouncing continues, creating a decrease in savings and/or an increase in Loans. A reduction in net savings causes additional tax!, due to the increase in economic activity.
And there, by accounting identity, is your extra tax, which reduces the government deficit and may even eliminate it completely and create a surplus. The extra tax ensures that bonds that mature are not reissued and the rate of issue of bonds slows downs and may even reverse.
The tax arises and the bonds disappear completely automatically when people who hold the savings they represent decide to spend their savings.
The same percentage of a bigger number is another bigger number. Mathematics will still work as it always has done post-the Ukraine war.
Can we now finally please put the tax payer money myth to bed ? Please!
Of course we can. Russia can NEVER run out of roubles they issue the Damn thing. Putin can run out of skills and real resources to BUY and government spending should be called government buying. When Putin hits his skills and real resources constraints.
That’s what taxes are for not only to drive the currency via the tax liability. Putin can tax areas in the Russian economy to free up more skills and real resources for his needs in this war. The stone skipping across the pond starts all over again. Taxes funded nothing they served a while different purpose entirely. Early American settlers knew it also.

Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 11 2023 11:57 utc | 207

Posted by: jayc | Jul 10 2023 18:19 utc | 42
>Swanson’s idea that Russia should have acceded to a massive incursion by Ukraine military into Donbass and towards Crimea so as to gain the “moral high ground” is the epitome of wooly-headed thinking. No responsible power would allow itself to be put on the back foot like that, and allow such a difficult military situation to occur.
By your logic, every country in history that was attacked first is acting irresponsibly. Russia was irresponsible in 1941, for example. Which is exactly USA neo-con thinking: immediately attack anyone who might possibly pose any future threat so as to always have the initiative. Your logic is a formula for endless war, overstretch, bankruptcy, eventual disaster when you bite off more than you can chew.
Also, your logic is hardly something that you and Putin alone understand. Surely the USA and Ukrainians are capable of thinking in the same way, so why did they “irresponsibly” wait until Russia attacked first? Why not attack Russia in early February, when Russia was delaying because of the Olympics? And Russia could then anticipate USA/Ukraine thinking and attack in January, and so on back to the start of humam history. Never wait, always strike first.
No one here knows all the details of what Putin knows, so maybe there were good reasons to act they way he did. In particular, striking first allowed seizing the land corridor to Crimea. That land corridor, Crimea itself and Donbas are small in value compared to cost of war. On the other hand, that land corridor puts immense political pressure on Zelensky because of the Ukrainian mantra of territorial integrity, this forcing Ukraine into the costly offensives which are currently destroying its military. Plus stupid people (majority of posters in this forum, majority of Russian people, majority of Russian soldiers) think territorial gains are important. Thus political advantages of attack might easily outweigh political disadvantages.
I still think CIA idea of bankrupting and regime changing opponents via insurgencies is the best way to conduct war, and so i think that’s what Russia should have been doing since 2014. Namely, supporting and financing insurgents and terrorists to wreck havok in Ukraine and NATO, without ever officially seizing or invading Ukrainian territory. Problem with Russia seizing Crimea in 2014 and Donbas in 2022 is that most of world really hates the idea of changing borders, because of the can of worms that opens. So I believe Crimea ultimately has to go back to Ukraine, after it becomes a Russian puppet state.
Though to reiterate, since i don’t have all the info Putin has, nor a firm grip on Russian domestic politics (and neither does anyone else in this forum), there may be reasons for doing what Russia did. The still poorly understand Prigozhin affair is yet another reminder that Russian politics is exceedingly complicated.

Posted by: Revelo | Jul 11 2023 12:03 utc | 208

Someone asked in another thread where Eric Zuesse was publishing his articles.
Here is one answer:
https://theduran.com/my-reply-to-professor-karaganovs-proposal-for-russia-to-launch-ww-iii/
He is complaining that his article was refused by RT News. No surprise considering the article.

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 12:07 utc | 209

So I believe Crimea ultimately has to go back to Ukraine, after it becomes a Russian puppet state.
Posted by: Revelo | Jul 11 2023 12:03 utc | 207
And we see by this example that nazis do not care at all about the will of the people, her the Crimeans.
It is kind of funny to see how anticommunists are now applauding decisions taken once upon a time by… communists.
And btw CA, AZ, NM and TX have to go back to Mexico. And Alaska to Russia.

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 12:20 utc | 210

Regarding France and long range missiles and Turkey wobbling and Ukraine security guaranties.
At some point Russia may need to strategically widen the conflict – do they wait until NATO decides they are ready to engage? The west is particularly fragile at present.

Posted by: jared | Jul 11 2023 12:39 utc | 211

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 12:20 utc | 209
>And we see by this example that nazis do not care at all about the will of the people, her the Crimeans.
What little people want is never of importance, except to the extent leaders can manipulate little people by acceding to their desires now and then. If and when leaders think it expedient, they will always and everywhere disregard little people’s desires. Society everywhere is and always has been a hierarchy. Unless you are near the top, you don’t have much power.
Personally, I merely want to know what is going to happen in the future, so i can prepare. I certainly don’t think i can affect world affairs. I shake my head at the foolishness of little people here who think their opinions matter.
>And btw CA, AZ, NM and TX have to go back to Mexico. And Alaska to Russia.
The issue is that most of the world accepts borders as of 1945, and is extremely resistant to changing those borders, except under extraordinary circumstances. Obviously borders were different long before 1945. Russia could, of course, ignore world opinion to satisfy the revanchist dreams of little people in Russia or elsewhere. More likely, the little people will be manipulated first to desire some scraps of territory, then manipulated not to care. Little people have peasant mentality: they are always thinking of land as the source of wealth and power. If land truly mattered, USA would long ago have absorbed Canada and Mexico.

Posted by: Revelo | Jul 11 2023 12:54 utc | 212

@ libegafra | Jul 11 2023 12:07 utc | 208
Thanks for the link provided.
There were some voices against and have been published on RT and propagated through the media. Namely, Ivan N. Timofeev and Ilya S. Fabrichnikov ,however none of them actually questions RF on a ‘simultaneous retaliation doctrine’, as a current state of the things are concerning a nuclear strike.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 11 2023 12:55 utc | 213

At some point Russia may need to strategically widen the conflict – do they wait until NATO decides they are ready to engage? The west is particularly fragile at present.
Posted by: jared | Jul 11 2023 12:39 utc | 210

You have to look at all the resources “Nato” has. Calculate every ship, every aircraft, every missile launcher and every tank in eastern Europe. That is the basis on which the real war needs to be planned.
Can Russia resource itself enough ground and sea launchers for Zircon’s to sink every Nato ship? Can they resource enough S-300 and S-400 launchers and AWACS aircraft to shoot down all the Nato aircraft? Can they resource enough Iskander’s to hit all the Nato airbases? Can they source enough tanks to ambush and destroy attacking Nato tanks?
Even this is seriously hypothetical, nevertheless, it’s the way a war needs to be planned for. Nato isn’t “unified” in a way many people think. Read article 5 – it is designed in a way that permits the anglo’s to jump ship, once they manage to get one vassal to attack.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 12:59 utc | 214

🌏 (https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/548480125650337803/1128282894750711881/image.png) Statements by participants at the NATO summit in Vilnius
🔻 Statements by the head of the North Atlantic Alliance, Jens Stoltenberg :
▪️El main goal of the bloc is the victory of Ukraine as a “democratic nation of Europe”, and without this there can be no security guarantees.
▪️ Our message to Russian President Vladimir Putin: “NATO’s doors remain open and the fight will only bring more NATO to your doorstep”.
▪️ We follow Russia’s actions at the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant and condemn the deployment of tactical nuclear weapons in Belarus.
▪️ The inaugural NATO-Ukraine summit will take place, where the standard plan for Ukraine’s accession to the Alliance will be cancelled, speeding up the accession process.
▪️ NATO must respond to Kiev’s failures by expanding arms supplies. Ukrainian troops face fierce resistance from the Russian armed forces, which have built up a ready line of defence.
▪️ NATO does not see the movement of Wagner PMC fighters in the direction of Belarus.
🔻 Statement by Polish President Andrzej Duda:
▪️ After the end of the armed conflict in Ukraine, it is possible to send a NATO peacekeeping mission, in which Polish military personnel can participate .
🔻 Statement by Hungarian Foreign Minister Peter Szijjártó :
▪️ The draft final document of the NATO summit does not contain an exact time or an agreed plan for Ukraine’s admission to the alliance.
🔻 Statements by Belgian Prime Minister Alexandre de Cros :
▪️ Ukraine will receive an invitation to NATO after obtaining the consent of all all alliance members and fulfilling all conditions.
🔻 Statements by French President Emmanuel Macron :
▪️ Long-range missiles will be transferred from France to Ukraine to “support” the offensive of the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Presumably, we are talking about MBDA Scalp-EG missiles, which are analogous to Storm Shadow.
🔻Statements by German Chancellor Olaf Scholz:
▪️ Germany will provide Ukraine, as part of a new military assistance package worth more than €700 million , with Puma infantry fighting vehicles, two Patriot batteries, 25 Leopard 1A5 tanks and 40 Marder armoured personnel carriers with shells for them.
🔻 Statements by Norwegian Prime Minister Jonas Gahr Støre :
▪️ Norway proposes five-year plan to support Ukraine, increases country’s military aid fund to $900 million.
▪️ Ukraine has a plan to join NATO. With the unanimous consent of the bloc’s members, it will be able to join the North Atlantic Alliance.
@rybar (“>https://t.me/rybar)

So, the Nato statements are out. There are verbal statements of “securing Ukrainian democracy”. Concrete statements include 25 new Leopard tanks and 40 Marder vehicles. SCALP missiles from France (essentially Storm shadow missiles). Seems that the level of Nato support can remain the same, or perhaps it even decreases compared to last year.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 13:18 utc | 215

usa when it is ripe will do a “tonkin gulf’ incident!
i would refrain to gve the u$$A nazis a propaganda meme!
and the project to let them send the unreliable stuff a thousand miles away from any support is a good one!
let them roll into kessels!

Posted by: paddy | Jul 11 2023 13:21 utc | 216

Finally to end with this stinky shit, I recall reading some book about the post-WWII conferences in which it was mentioned how complicated and tedious the management of languages and translations was between the gathered foreign secretaries, a problem which reportedly didn’t exist at all in the side-meetings of the foreign secretaries’ wifes who communicated with each other in a common language, Yiddish.
Posted by: Mushroom | Jul 11 2023 1:34 utc | 129
It is indeed stinky shit, as you say, also bordering on being taboo, indicating a deeply serious ‘disturbance in the force.’ It’s like we all walk around in turd-strewn streets and get a whole load of it sticking to the soles of our shoes and then we all sit around in the living rooms inside having polite conversations about this and that precluded by polite convention from either acknowledging the stench which everyone can smell vividly or, heaven forbid, actually cleaning it off. No, we have to pretend it isn’t there making us ignorant, lazy, cowards who deserve to be exploited.
I don’t know which is worse: that bevin believes his extreme whitewashing narratives or that he doesn’t but pushes them anyway protected by taboos backed by unethical laws. Either way, he wants us to keep dragging stinky shit carrying shoes into our living rooms and pretending that we don’t smell anything disgusting. This collective hypocrisy has brought about the collapse of our civilization. And since the new one rising shares many of the same founding narratives and taboos, it will not end well and might even, over time, prove worse. Karma 101.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 13:24 utc | 217

What little people want is never of importance,
Posted by: Revelo | Jul 11 2023 12:54 utc | 211
OK, you have a typical nazi or nietzschean Weltanschauung, also typical for individualist, egoist, egocentric and hedonist western people. This is an obvious fact from what you wrote and not an insult.
If your opinion does not matter, what are you doing here?
What the future will be no one knows.
There is no such thing as “most of the world”. About borders, tell that to the Yugoslavian people.

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 13:26 utc | 218

… Turkey will never become a member of the EU. Erdogan is dreaming.
Posted by: B. Wildered | Jul 11 2023 8:37 utc | 176

Erdogan must know that, likely it’s a play for domestic consumption, might help to offset being pushed out of northern Syria.
Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 11 2023 9:38 utc | 183
Did something of Macron’s just blow up in Syria?

Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 11 2023 13:28 utc | 219

Tacitus | Jul 10 2023 21:04 utc | 86
***So the sultan swings again and expects to get eu membership in 2 years, schengen now and counter terror in sweden for his approval of sweden in nato. I wonder if his expectations will be met.***
Germany collapses to make way for a new version of the Turkish empire in Europe as well as central Asia… and remember that years ago when Erdogan was more openly ‘friends’ with Israel, he went on about their shared Turkic ancestry (presumably meaning the Khazars, not Sephardics). So the Ukraine region comes into it too, as well as the “Stans”..
Is that what Erdogan still fantasises about — and does he seriously imagine that the rulers of the USA would accept it unless his new power-arrangeent was 100% *their* vassal?

Posted by: Cynic | Jul 11 2023 13:29 utc | 220

anthony sutton
eustace mullins
FROM MAJOR JORDAN’S DIARIES
“We are determined that nothing shall stop us from sharing with you all that we
have …”
– Harry Hopkins, AT THE RUSSIAN AID RALLY, MADISON SQUARE
GARDENS, JUNE 1942.
“… I want to put in permanent form the full story of my experiences as a Lend-Lease expediter and liaison officer with the Russians during the war, when I served for two crucial years, from May 1942 to June 1944, both at Newark Airport and at the big air base at Great Falls, Montana …”–Pref.
https://archive.org/stream/GeorgeRaceyJordanFromMajorJordansDiaries/George%20Racey%20Jordan%20-%20From%20Major%20Jordans%20Diaries_djvu.txt

Posted by: norman wisdom | Jul 11 2023 13:29 utc | 221

usa when it is ripe will do a “tonkin gulf’ incident!
Posted by: paddy | Jul 11 2023 13:21 utc | 215
Such as bombing a NPP on ukronazi controlled territory?!

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 13:30 utc | 222

@libegafra 208
thx for the link, here too.
-The major issue is not WMDs in Europe. Albeit their positions near Russia is the evident argument and has been since the 1950s for a non-nuclear zone “Europe” in the same vein as South America or Africa, militarily US capabilities on the sea and in the air are the major threat.
And how to roll back that, no clue. over the course of 100 years?
As to NATO: I dont know how in reality FRANCE (and GB) would react to a Russian first strike, which is very unlikely to occure.
If Europe has a function its dragging in the US.
Were France to retaliate it is unlikely the US would not act likewise.
Above all, US miltary planning still considers its arsenal superior to RU and CHN forces.
But to actually argue on the basis of using WMDS is just dumb.
We have already have to many examples where the chain of command in moments of crisis in fact failed.
Which means: Had the officers on the ground/in their subs acted as their Supreme Commander ordered them or had they stuck to SOP we would not exist any more today.
Thus we have proof that the control of the WMD regime does not work.
The control of WMD does not work.
-Trying to disrupt NATO by bilateral negotiations could backfire and provoke war.
Besides I doubt any major NATO nation would ever even ponder such a move for a second.
You dont do that kind of thing after 80 years of ties between EU and USA.
Too many strings attached on too many levels.
And: What after that? What if Hungary left NATO? Would anybody care?
Would it change anything?
No.
The US has 100 warheads stationed in 5 NATO countries outside GB.
Thats it.
NATO is 1st air force, 2nd nuclear force. That is its entire logic. From day #1.
Without it there is no NATO.
And 99% of those are under US ownership. So what if the appendix of USA, NATO, would “shrink”? Get a beauty surgery?
So I find that notion rather very naive.
And I really doubt that would be the RU way. Not a nice move it would be diplomatically.
And actually RU has by now abandoned the West anyway.
They will go “Chinese” and build up the counter institutions.
They dont look at EU any more they are looking at the globe now.
The only thing we can do here is try to support that by influencing the domestic movements in the coming 30 years.
But that RT rejected the text I dont get.

Posted by: AG | Jul 11 2023 13:31 utc | 223

@ Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 12:59 utc | 213
Well, I am sure it is complicated and would have to be gamed-out, but I think it might be incremental retaliation or perhaps better is sudden punch in the nose delivered with conviction. I know that the professionals know much more than I do, but maybe sometimes they outsmart themselves – someone is trying to channel Sun Tsu and win the war without firing a shot. Russia and China seem to be banking heavily on prospect that west will collapse of it’s own incompetence and corruption – that is likely at some point but may become much more dangerous in the interim. Russia fighting a beast with many heads.
Putin for all his excellent qualities seems to manage things like an accountant. He will need a successor anyway (I hope at some point), I think they could use the character of Kadyrov.

Posted by: jared | Jul 11 2023 13:36 utc | 224

uncle tungsten | Jul 10 2023 23:54 utc | 117
***Perhaps the USA can never forgive the French for giving away losing Vietnam especially Dien bien phu.***
The US was covertly *against* France and the UK ‘imperialism’ in Indo-China.
But with them removed, things didn’t work out the way the US intended.

Posted by: Cynic | Jul 11 2023 13:45 utc | 225

Greg Galloway @ 204
“My overall opinion is that there is a trend in media coverage to hype the Ukraine conflict into some very big war the like of WWII.”
I have noticed this, plus a continual reference to “WWIII,” as though it were a foregone conclusion that the whole world can be drawn into the Ukraine conflict if certain weapons are used.
Or perhaps this is an unconscious assumption that any conflict involving any “western” states is actually a world war. WWI and WWII also didn’t actually involve all the world’s nations, although there were obvious knock-on effects, and European nations’ colonial possessions made it look like more of the “the world” was involved.
Now, it seems like any nation with an IQ over room temp (as Andrei Martyanov would say) would steer very, very clear of (open) involvement in a USA/NATO vs. RF conflict.

Posted by: Jane | Jul 11 2023 13:53 utc | 226

Vilnius is close to the Russian border, isn’t it?
And even closer to the Belarusian border.

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 13:55 utc | 227

Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 13:24 utc | 216, I must say that post surprised me.
My first thought was that your moniker had been highjacked. Perhaps not? If not you have fallen an extremely long way, which is very disappointing. ‘bevin’ is a very well informed commenter compared to ‘mushroom’; you may be ideologically challenged by his narratives, but those narratives are informed by so much more than the rantings and vague insinuations of the commenter that appears with whom you share opinions. I sincerely hope your moniker has been highjacked.

Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 11 2023 13:56 utc | 228

Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 13:24 utc | 216
Well the name-link goes nowhere, which happens periodically.
Sorry about the penultimate sentence – a case of sloppy editing.

Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 11 2023 14:01 utc | 229

Posted by: rk | Jul 11 2023 11:30 utc | 202
Everything you posted, even if it were all true, is irrelevant.
The world is going multi-polar because the West has abandoned reason.
To quote the great Ayn Rand:
“Western civilization was the child and product of reason – via ancient Greece. In all other civilizations, reason has always been the menial servant – the handmaiden – of mysticism. You may observe the results. It is only Western culture that has ever been dominated – imperfectly, incompletely, precariously and at rare intervals – but still, dominated by reason”
These words were written nearly 50 years ago. Too bad they weren’t heeded.
The West has now entered back into mysticism. Gender is not a biological fact, but a feeling. I “feel” like a woman today, so I must be one. This sort of nonsense violates the fundamental basis of reason – the law of identity.
Other examples of western mysticism at work:
+ We can print money and create wealth
+ An experimental non-sterilizing agent is a “vaccine”
+ Denying reality itself (‘we make our own reality – Bush/Cheney’)
The rest of the world will realize if they have not already that to join the West is to return to the dark ages.
Multipolarity is inevitable. To quote another great, from the Matrix:
“You hear that, Mr. Anderson? That’s the sound of inevitability. That’s the sound of your death”

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 14:04 utc | 230

It’s just there needs to be some way to address the matter of other nations sending weapons to be used against Russia.

Posted by: jared | Jul 11 2023 14:07 utc | 231

Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 11 2023 13:28 utc | 218
It’s difficult to know what Erdogan is up to – it could be as complicated as Putin’s relations with Prigozhin. Erdogan has never shown any interest in joining the EU, which was the policy of the previous government twenty years ago. It is not certain that he wants it now, but not unlikely that we’re faced with some complicated game that is not obvious. His electorate in Anatolia don’t care too much, but in the face of economic difficulties might be interested in visa-free travel to go and work in Europe.

Posted by: laguerre | Jul 11 2023 14:07 utc | 232

Re: Atom Bombs etc in Europe
Mainstream Magazine Article from 2012, that concluded based on newly de-classified material that Washington had stored 5,000 atom weapons on German soil during the Cold War. article also concludes that its unknown how many Atom
bombs remained after Cold War ended.
https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/neue-aktenfunde-usa-lagerten-heimlich-atomwaffen-in-deutschland-a-819147.html

Posted by: Exile | Jul 11 2023 14:08 utc | 233

Posted by: AG | Jul 11 2023 13:31 utc | 222
The doctrine of the Russian use of nuclear weapons did not change and has no reason to change.
Western elites are cowards.
Now we have the example of the two ballistic missiles fired from the Spanish area against Syria under Obama which fell into the Med sea.
Let imagine nuclear missiles fired at the RF and falling before Russian territory…
Lavrov explained once in agreement with Putin that Russia does not wage war against civilian populations. Hence (my understanding only) first targets would be the western elites. See a few lines above.
As for the ukronazi elites, there are the examples of Zalujny and Budanov. Next.

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 14:11 utc | 234

Jane | Jul 11 2023 13:53 utc | 225
“The world” is only that collection of people whose judgment matters to us in some way. Empire managers are going to find out the Western “world” is a lot smaller than they thought.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen | Jul 11 2023 14:15 utc | 235

#232
That sounds like a question for Scott Ritter. remember, his old job was the monitoring, counting, and witnessing the de-commissioning of atomic weapons. he should have a good idea what happened, with the evidence to support it.

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 11 2023 14:16 utc | 236

@Revelo | Jul 11 2023 12:54 utc | 211

The issue is that most of the world accepts borders as of 1945,

Baaad troll. You guys cannot even keep up with your own narratives. Were all the grown ups out for lunch?
1954 was long after 1945.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transfer_of_Crimea_in_the_Soviet_Union

Posted by: Lurk | Jul 11 2023 14:19 utc | 237

Macron just declared to supply more weapons and ammunition to strike deeper…
How stupid.

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 14:19 utc | 238

That sounds like a question for Scott Ritter. remember, his old job was the monitoring, counting, and witnessing the de-commissioning of atomic weapons. he should have a good idea what happened, with the evidence to support it.
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 11 2023 14:16 utc | 235

Brilliant ! Someone should get Ritter to investigate -just how many of those 5,000 Cold War nukes remain in Germany ?

Posted by: Exile | Jul 11 2023 14:21 utc | 239

https://t.me/vladimirtupin/32240
Comments by Attenborough
Please, try not to laugh…

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 14:27 utc | 240

I am convinced that the post in b’s OP is a troll. There is a tell in some of the wording, such as use of the meme term “two weeks”, and the line about “russia cares about its soldiers”. It was also posted by a pro-RU twitter that masquerades as pro-UA.

Posted by: catdog | Jul 11 2023 14:31 utc | 241

Posted by: Lurk | Jul 11 2023 14:19 utc | 236
You are right, of course.
And Korea, and Vietnam, and Germany, and Comores, and Sudan, and Ethiopia, and Yemen, and Israel, and Yugoslavia, and Soviet Union…

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 14:32 utc | 242

@ libegafra | Jul 11 2023 14:11 utc | 233
I remember RF Calibrating Syria from the Caspian Sea. That was in awe, for the West.
But, it seems that majority might have misunderstanding of very big differences in nuclear tactical responses, between RF and West. ‘Second strike’ was a tactical obfuscation, as it is not possible to deliver for the retaliator.
So, to simplify it, RF’s posture is that RF will never strike first, but last. Meaning that if the West tries to ICBMs RF, RF launches simultaneous air defense and an attack. That differs to the AEGIS concept of setting ‘the wall’ around RF or making any difference there due to the sheer volumes of missiles that it has to counter.
Here one can read more of how and why, if unclear.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 11 2023 14:37 utc | 243

There has been some debate in this place as to what Russia might do if NATO was preparing some kind of attack, say 6 months from now, either by air, or air / naval power (maritime planes and cruise missiles adding to the force weight). Or even WORSE, building up a few divisions of US, UK French Polish manpower in a neighbouring country.
Unlike, IRAQ, Russia won’t sit watching the build-up and do nothing. The build-up could not be passed off as a defence force or a plan to suppress Transinistria, or some other preposterous cover story. (say).
Classically, Russian doctrine would allow SOME build up, and then they should bomb and erase the prepared airfields, and encroaching aircraft carriers (Black Sea, Baltic, Possible the Fifth Fleet in the Arabian gulf, from their Syrian bases). and the localised military concentrations. They would have the advantage of choosing their moment. There’s no point worrying about triggering war with NATO, when they can see that the build up is for a war with them!
I would still not expect, as some here suggest, that Russia would over reach and try to destroy far off NATO Outposts. They would focus on the Near Abroad. Let the US have the global logistics problem.
The main Russian decision-point would be the status and stockpiles supporting their air defence infrastructure, to cope with the extremely hostile air counter-attacks that would come from NATO. In a conventional weapons conflict, both sides would inflict heavy casualties, but the NATO air forces would be decimated by Russia’s air defence. They would have to bring up second and third levels of reserve aircraft. I’m not sure they could ever achieve air dominance, never mind air supremacy.
As to whether either side then reached for the nuclear button, that is another tale for another day.

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 11 2023 14:40 utc | 244

Macron just declared to supply more weapons and ammunition to strike deeper…
How stupid.
Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 14:19 utc | 237
You have to understand that he can’t do otherwise, like the others. Ukraine has no manufacture of weapons or ammunition. If NATO refused, Ukraine would have to surrender in a month.

Posted by: laguerre | Jul 11 2023 14:42 utc | 245

Revelo | Jul 11 2023 12:54 utc | 211
*** USA would long ago have absorbed Canada …***
Hasn’t it, effectively?

Posted by: Cynic | Jul 11 2023 14:44 utc | 246

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 14:04 utc | 229

“Western civilization was the child and product of reason – via ancient Greece. In all other civilizations, reason has always been the menial servant – the handmaiden – of mysticism. You may observe the results. It is only Western culture that has ever been dominated – imperfectly, incompletely, precariously and at rare intervals – but still, dominated by reason”
These words were written nearly 50 years ago. Too bad they weren’t heeded.

They were complete bullshit though.
The statement:
It is only Western culture that has ever been dominated – imperfectly, incompletely, precariously and at rare intervals – but still, dominated by reason”
Would apply equally well to any significant civilisation throughout history, from the ancient Chinese and Indians, to the Persians, Sumerians, Assyrians, Akkadians (The Code of Hammurabi??) and even the Mongols and onwards.
The Persians, before and after the Islamic Golden Era, while they were busy correcting the mathematical errors of the Greeks and expanding on their philosophies as they resurrected and recovered the works of Archimedes, Aristotle, Anaximander, Hipparches and other long forgotten greek teachers and inventing Algebra and Algorithm would have been astounded to hear Rand (yet another Khazar) dis their achievements while “Westerners” at that time were running around in low fashion avoiding their baths, burning maidens at the stake and indulging in Spanish Inquisitions and genociding the New World in the name of God, Logic and Reason… And that’s just one counter example.
The Child and Product of Reason my ass …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 11 2023 14:48 utc | 247

@ Exile | Jul 11 2023 14:21 utc | 238
Brilliant ! Someone should get Ritter to investigate -just how many of those 5,000 Cold War nukes remain in Germany ?
I think Ritter was not the only UN inspector employed in the whole world.
What is known is that US air launched gravity drop bombs B61 were present in Europe varying in numbers from 300-500, shared between The Netherlands, Italy, Germany and on-off some others.
Here is a claim, but overall feel is that

The U.S. nuclear arsenal in Europe consists entirely of B61 gravity bombs, which are designed to be dropped from allied bombers or fighter aircraft. In service for more than fifty years and modernized many times, the B61 is the last remaining tactical nuclear weapon the United States has.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 11 2023 14:50 utc | 248

libegafra@239
Thanks, but we really don’t need links to idiocies. We generate plenty right here, on site.
Take Scorpion@216 for example where those of us who maintain that the world is not ruled according to the guesses that the Tsar’s Secret Police made in their forged Protocols of the Elders of Zion are accused of whitewashing-presumably the Jews, but it is not made clear.
He then makes a brief tour of the living room-not a pretty sight- before blaming this ‘hypocrisy’ of pretending that the globe is not dominated by his chosen scapegoats for bringing “about the collapse of our civilization…”
When he is not providing insights of this level of profundity Scorpion ‘casts’ (whatever that means in the circumstances) ‘I ching’ whatevers and thus prophesies the future aims of the objects of his and Hitler’s ire.
And the moral of the story is not to try to make up for innocently acquired ignorance by reading silly books which explain the complexities of history in terms of the malice of the Inquisition’s betes noir-Jews, becoming Masons transforming into Communists.
And all in the employ of the Rothschild family.
Is Attenborough really stupider than that?

Posted by: bevin | Jul 11 2023 14:52 utc | 249

Just in. There appears to be no fact track to NATO membership for Ukraine. Not even a time-table is offered. So Western countries scramble to offer the naughty naughty a few pieces of candy, like the French long-range missiles, so as to stop him pissing during the conference.
https://www.reuters.com/world/nato-summit-seeks-agreement-ukraine-bid-after-turkey-deal-sweden-2023-07-10/
https://www.rt.com/news/579545-zelensky-ukraine-nato-membership/

Posted by: YIU | Jul 11 2023 14:55 utc | 250

#235
Unlike other inspectors, he is available for questions online twice a week. Plus he would indicate the documentation and references to back his response.
Or are you just flying a kite?

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 11 2023 14:55 utc | 251

Re: 5,000 Pentagon Nukes in Germany
The 2012 article using de-classified files from 1981; establish that the Pentagon stored the Nukes on German soil in secret and in violation of Agreements between Washington and the German gov’t.
Sooooo why would anyone believe those published numbers the Pentagon shows today ?

Posted by: Exile | Jul 11 2023 14:57 utc | 252

Typo in my previous message just went out : should be “no fast track:.

Posted by: YIU | Jul 11 2023 14:57 utc | 253

Everything you posted, even if it were all true
Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 14:04 utc | 229
“IF true”? You don’t read any news, do you? Not even TASS?
Let me know when multipolarity appears. Until then enjoy Jaishankar anti-BRICS, pro-US/EU speeches or the Modi-Biden very long list of agreements, including the three US navy repair ports in India, to be used by nato during peace and war time. Can you imagine if Turkey gets into BRICS? It’ll be comedy gold. Or Vietnam, who asked US for help against China and they had USS Ronald Reagan visiting Da Nang for a week last month, to show Xi who is the boss.

Posted by: rk | Jul 11 2023 14:58 utc | 254

@ Revelo | Jul 11 2023 12:54 utc | 211
you ought to examine the borders of yugoslavia and how they were changed with natos war… specifically consider the new country kosovo and how that came about… that will give you something to ponder on with regard to crimea..

Posted by: james | Jul 11 2023 15:03 utc | 255

posted by: Shoplifter
The Institute for the Study of War is a neocon outfit staffed by war profiteers. It has all the credibility of Pinocchio on a bad day.

Posted by: G. Poulin | Jul 11 2023 15:04 utc | 256

Head of Rheinmetall announced an agreement to set up a factory in Ukraine.
He did not disclose the location, but the plant is being built in Transcarpathia near Chornotysiv, the signs of which are shown in our map.

https://twitter.com/rybar_force/status/1678505087675650051
Looks like the new secret project has begun, who’s location no one, not even local residents know about this mysterious object.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 15:06 utc | 257

The Russians and the Straussian West are both interested in destroying the Ukrainians. For somewhat different reasons.

Posted by: catbonez | Jul 11 2023 15:11 utc | 258

The world is going multi-polar because the West has abandoned reason.
To quote the great Ayn Rand:
“Western civilization was the child and product of reason – via ancient Greece. In all other civilizations, reason has always been the menial servant – the handmaiden – of mysticism. You may observe the results. It is only Western culture that has ever been dominated – imperfectly, incompletely, precariously and at rare intervals – but still, dominated by reason”
These words were written nearly 50 years ago. Too bad they weren’t heeded.
[…]
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 14:04 utc | 229

Well I’d take advantage of your post to introduce some distinction, hope you won’t mind.
It is a common mistake to be unable to tell “Logic” from “Reason”.
These are two distinct – and actually very different – things.
Logic – from the Greek “logos” is the quality that gives speech its ability to stand examination.
It is based on the use of logical operators: in common Grammar: “coordinating conjunctions”.
Coordinating conjunction is a conjunction that connects words, phrases, and clauses that are coordinate, or equal to each other. There are seven coordinating conjunctions: for, and, nor, but, or, yet, so. Logic is absolute, speech is logical or not, can’t be somehow logical only.
OTOH, Reason – from latin “ratio” = measure or more accurately relationship – indicate the use of measurement in the assessing of a phenomenon or an object. At start body parts (Thumbs, Feet, Steps) were the units used for measurements.
It is always relative since it uses some unit of measure to process the measurement.
Ayn Rand above uses (latin) “Reason” for meaning (Greek) “Logic”: a common mistake.
Often people think about madmen as being deprived of “Logic” while they are deprived of “Reason” (measure) and of perfectly logical discourse – which makes them even scarier.
Many delusions are perfectly “logical” when you study them at the speech level: they make sense until you MEASURE them up to Reality!
The madman man is the one devoid of Reason/Measure because he’ll do anything. To name a couple: Hitler or Pol-Pot were perfectly logical minds. They were actually madmen because having no measure, they were unable to set up limits to their own actions,
following their insane discourse up to the bitter end.
Logic is the gift of every madman, as you can assess watching every day TV.
Reason is the precious gift of the sound and poised man.
Hope I didn’t waste too much of your time.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 11 2023 15:13 utc | 259

indian punchline from today –
What to expect from NATO Summit 2023

Posted by: james | Jul 11 2023 15:20 utc | 260

The Child and Product of Reason my ass …
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 11 2023 14:48 utc | 246
The major product of Greece was hubris. And it is the main heritage inside the western world.

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 15:24 utc | 261

Hope I didn’t waste too much of your time.
Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 11 2023 15:13 utc | 258
Not at all. Thanks!

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 15:27 utc | 262

Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 11 2023 13:56 utc | 227
No, not hijacked. Many different people here with different POV, some of them quite substantively so. Many years ago I went down the revisionist rabbit hole and though I don’t think that everything I read and concluded is necessarily correct, I feel fairly comfortable that it’s 80% right. With Mushroom’s post: he quoted several things have never read, for example that Trotsky had a Rolls Royce (or some such). That strikes me as unlikely. However, much of what he wrote accords with what I studied years ago. (I no longer remember the details, however, and have no desire to go back and refresh.)
Seems to me that we are living in a Big Lie matrix and that even the new nations arising, like Russia and China, whilst promising to serve as White Knights leading us out of the ghastly ruin of the Outlaw US Empire, depend on many of the same lies and false promises which they too hesitate to debunk or break free from – financial and narrative webs and so on.
In my heart I believe that all will turn out well, that goodness will somehow prevail. But I think LOTR was a wise tale in that even though the good guys won, much that was great and glorious in the world faded away, and some who caused the victory suffered wounds from which they could never recover.
And the head considers: no matter which version of Russian history one believes, bevin’s or a revisionist’s, millions upon millions of people died. The conservative estimate is around 65 million Russians died from the consequences of the 1917 revolution. I believe that is about half their starting population. It’s humongous and horrible no matter which side of any explanation you are on. Horrible. Ghastly. Unimaginable. Yet it happened.
For such things for whatever reason have happened in human history. And they can happen again.
Before things turn out well in any new world order, the same sort of ghastly Hell might be visited upon all of us. And I fear that as long as we remain trapped in a matrix of Lies that this is more likely than not. If we could, however, have a more honest appraisal of our past and present situations, then maybe we could indeed fashion a bright new world together.
That said, there are some extremely promising developments – like new BRICS+ currency/finance. Maybe this can break the back of the criminal credit cartel system which has hijacked western civilization and turned it into a cultural wasteland. But at this point, I’ll believe it when I see it for those same countries are also developing CBDC’s and surveillance state capabilities and part of the very strange world-wide pandemic. So right now it’s a Big Mess and am not comfortable with the narrative many here espouse that one side is All-Evil and the other side All-Good.
Put another way: given such deceptive ground, any fruit growing therefrom will almost certainly prove poisonous.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 15:27 utc | 263

scepticalSOB@243….if swarmed with drones, like Russia does, Russia will have the same issue, what do you shoot down, what is a decoy? NATO already uses those tactics, once the F16s show up, will it change the game? I’d say no, but a lot more Russians and their infrastructure will go poof…. disadvantage of a SloMo?
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 11 2023 15:28 utc | 264

Shoigu about the AFU offensive from 04.06.2023 to 11.07.2023.
1. Irretrievable losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine amounted to 26 thousand people and 3,000 units of various equipment and weapons.
2. AFU losses in equipment:
Tanks and BBM-1244, including 17 Leopards.
Artillery – 43 M777 howitzers, 46 M109 self-propelled guns, “Crab”, “Caesar”.
Aircraft – 21
Helicopters – 5
UAV – 483
Cruise missiles – 27
3. The enemy could not achieve results in any of the offensive directions.
4. The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation launched a counteroffensive in the Krasnolimansk direction. At the 2 km front, the advance was up to 1.5 km in depth (this is about the advance to Torsky, which the military commanders reported today).
5. In the case of supplies of American cluster munitions to Ukraine, Russia will begin to use similar ammunition against the AFU. At the moment, Russia refrains from using them. Russia has more than enough of such ammunition.
CC

Posted by: Fives | Jul 11 2023 15:30 utc | 265

@Greg Galloway
Thanks, for sure that is helpful and a reminder that reason and logic are separate things.
From her lecture on philosophy:

What is reason? Reason is the faculty which perceives, identifies and integrates the material provided by man’s senses. Reason integrates man’s perceptions by means of forming abstractions or conceptions, thus raising man’s knowledge from the perceptual level, which he shares with animals, to the conceptual level, which he alone can reach. The method which reason employs in this process is logic—and logic is the art of non-contradictory identification.

Rand like any person had her blind spots.
Other cultures and civilizations have had their own contributions equal to western ones, such as algebra (Arabs) and to claim that reason is the only thing differentiating the success of the West ignores the genocide of indigenous populations, colonialism, slavery, and other evil acts to oppress others.
But it does seem to me that abandoning reason will not end well. Many features of our current political leadership are outright denial of the laws of physics, such as ordering by diktat the abolishment of the internal combustion engine.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 15:32 utc | 266

Indian punchline has an article on the Nato summit and what it offers for Ukraine.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 15:34 utc | 267

Indian punchline has an article on the Nato summit and what it offers for Ukraine.

Haas elaborated that the NATO countries can instead bilaterally “extend a security commitment to defend Ukraine’s right to exist… without reference to precise territory…comparable to what the US has long done for Israel.”
Haas believes that such a formal, open-ended commitment backed up with “the arms, intelligence, and training it requires” would signal that America “will not allow any entity to threaten” Ukraine’s existence, but without linking it “to any specific map” of the territory of Ukraine.
Interestingly, when asked about it during the press gaggle on Sunday, Sullivan also confirmed that such a concept is on the table whereby the US, its allies and partners “within a multilateral framework, will negotiate bilateral security commitments with Ukraine for the long term… to provide various forms of military assistance, intelligence and information sharing, cyber support and other forms of material support so that Ukraine can both defend itself and deter future aggression.”

https://www.indianpunchline.com/what-to-expect-from-nato-summit-2023/
It seems that they will keep Ukraine as a paper-entity, with no commitments to any sort of territory. This paper-entity called Ukraine would then be a proxy through which Nato can use to hit Russia with military and intelligence means, regardless whether Ukraine actually exists on the map.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 15:35 utc | 268

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 11 2023 15:13 utc | 258

It is a common mistake to be unable to tell “Logic” from “Reason”.
These are two distinct – and actually very different – things.

Thank you. I have tried to make that distinction many times on these forums.
I have even accorded some value to “insight by spiritual inspiration”.
One day perhaps it’s value will be understood here in “The West”.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 11 2023 15:36 utc | 269

“It is only Western culture that has ever been dominated – imperfectly, incompletely, precariously and at rare intervals – but still, dominated by reason”
Very difficult to find a more contradictory statement.
And completely ethnocentric, of course. And totally wrong for those… reasons or logic.
It is mainly the western culture which is destroying biodiversity and people, it is western culture which brought the 2 first WW. And is ready to start a third one, if not yet started.

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 15:41 utc | 270

Re: The Myth of Lend and Lease
” ” ” Like 80 years ago there is still a believe that Russia is, economically and militarily, incapable of defending itself
80 years ago Russia was economically incapable of defending itself; Russia couldn’t have prevailed against the might of the German army without the billions of dollars worth of lend lease military equipment, food and fuel provided by the US.
Of course that has now changed
Posted by: Sir Keef | Jul 11 2023 10:19 utc | 189 ” ” ”
It was written elsewhere that L&L deliveries were very close to the Stalingrad Battle, which broke the Camel’s back of the German Army (of Paulus). This event was the most important. The. If the L&L didn’t happened at all, it was estimated that the war with Germany (II WW) will take for Russia two years longer.
And, as we see, the L&L is not happening today, to the benefit of Russia, in order to finish quickly the Ukrainian suffering . . .
Germans of the II WW times should be thankful to USA for helping Russia to win the WAR (in 75%) quicker . . .

Posted by: LogosApplied | Jul 11 2023 15:41 utc | 271

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 15:32 utc | 265
But it does seem to me that abandoning reason will not end well. Many features of our current political leadership are outright denial of the laws of physics, such as ordering by diktat the abolishment of the internal combustion engine.
I have come to believe that it is not the abandonment of Reason, Logic, Science and Fact that has brought humanity to the brink.
In fact, if you look at the fruits of our “Reason” one thing is clear: The sum of all our “physics” has merely culminated in the tools of our own destruction.
Reason, like Logic, Science and even Inspiration serve neither Good nor Evil – they are blind and without allegiance. They serve whatever master commands them, whether he be compassionate or ruthless.
We have abandoned (or are at risk of abandoning) something far more than Reason, and without that “something” all the Reason and Logic in the world won’t save us.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 11 2023 15:43 utc | 272

They just Replaced everything Ukraine lost and gave them longer range weapons. It’s an absolute nightmare for the Russians.
Posted by: OohCanada | Jul 11 2023 11:32 utc | 203
A nightmare for the Russians? Who the fuck are you trying to kid? I thought kiev were supposed to be sunbathing on the crimea beaches by August? And that moscows streets were supposed to be flooded with anti putin protestors? And what happened to kievs “million man army” last september? Oh and what happened to the great spring and summer counter offensive this year?
No. The nightmare you speak of is not one recognised in the ranks of the Russian military, the political class in russia or amongst its peoples. The nightmare is felt in the Rada in kiev, in NATO’s top brass and in the trenches of the ukraine army who are daily being blown away by far superior, professional and experienced forces.
You are indeed a fool, a complete fool i might add, if you cannot (or will not) recognise the reality playing out on the ground.
DREAM ON!

Posted by: HERMIUS | Jul 11 2023 15:49 utc | 273

…for example that Trotsky had a Rolls Royce (or some such)
Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 15:27 utc | 262

The man with the Rolls Royce was Lenin. The car was a gift from factory workers.

Posted by: Nobody | Jul 11 2023 15:52 utc | 274

Turkey’s Foreign Policy objective from the start of this war was to not be dragged into it. While I think Russia is in a stronger moral position with regards to Ukraine, 350,000 dead Ukrainians isn’t anything anyone should be applauding. If Turkey backs Russia too strongly, it will become an enemy of the US. This is a war between Russia and the US, not Turkey and the US or Turkey and Russia. On some level, I find Erdogan’s decision reprehensible, on another I find it realistic and shrewd. If this was an independent decision balancing Turkish interests, I can appreciate that justification. My greater concern is the speculation that I hear in Turkey and elsewhere that Erdogan is ultimately a MB deep covert US asset effectively installed by UK and US intelligence as part of the Green Belt.

Posted by: Turk 152 | Jul 11 2023 15:54 utc | 275

If you look at World War 2 production statistics, Russia outproduced USA in:
-tanks and self propelled guns (92k vs 71k)
-artillery (516k vs. 257k)
-mortars (200k vs 105k)
USA outproduced Russia:
-machine guns (2679k vs. 1477k)
-trucks (2382k vs 197k)
Aircraft:
USA outproduced:
-fighters (99k vs 63k)
-bomber (tactical / medium bombers) (97k vs 21k)
-transport (23k vs 17k)
Don’t know about rail locomotives. But US made more contribution in trucks and fighter and bomber aircraft most likely, and very little contribution in ground weapons. It had direct and indirect effect, by releasing Soviet factories to do other stuff such as tanks and guns. Soviet industry was very impressive considering entire production lines were moved 700-1000km at the same time the rail network was crowded with military needs. US land meanwhile was untouched.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 15:54 utc | 276

About reason:
Animism = nature is sacred.
Judaism = our tribe is sacred.
Xianism = the individual is sacred. Thus there is no limit to the power which one individual can collect. It means that some people are above the laws and corruption can be generalized. Herd animals (=powerless people) can be treated like sheep and sent to meat grinders.
There is also a lot to say about reason and the fear of death.

Posted by: libegafra | Jul 11 2023 15:56 utc | 277

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 15:50 utc | 273
Russia have no friggin clue what is going on, as I have tried to say for over a year here now LOL, you should have listened!
I am surprised you didn’t include a reference from The Guardian.
Then again if you’re quoting The Telegraph you can’t go lower…

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 11 2023 15:57 utc | 278

Posted by: Nobody | Jul 11 2023 15:52 utc | 274
The man with the Rolls Royce was Lenin. The car was a gift from factory workers.
=====================
HA! Just goes to show that workers like their leaders to stand out. You would think from most (middle class written) socialist-style literature that they would have bought him a volks-wagen (peoples’ car) but no, they got him a Great British Imperialist car fit for a Tzar!!

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 15:59 utc | 279

Russia have no friggin clue what is going on, as I have tried to say for over a year here now LOL, you should have listened!
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 15:50 utc | 273
Haha. At least russia has a friggin clue. Thats more than kiev and NATO have. They have NO clue whatsoever.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Jul 11 2023 16:00 utc | 280

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 15:54 utc | 276
Also, US would never have set foot on European mainland without those results of battles German army had with Soviet army before D-Day. It would have ended up US nuking Berlin, like they did in Japan.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 16:04 utc | 281

Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 15:59 utc | 279
Lenin had several expensive vehicles including Buicks.
Trotsky got his Rolls Royce from Tsar Nicholas’ garage.

Posted by: dh | Jul 11 2023 16:10 utc | 282

@b – 273 is an impostor, probably the original Zanon, too cowardly to post under his identity.
We know that reason and logic alone do not produce a good society. To @arch bungles’ point.
My observation is that Western cultures have abandoned both reason and spirituality, leading to the worship of technology. Technology is a by-product of science, and amoral.
What is the core, fundamental error that led the West down the path of destruction? That would be an interesting debate. Probably way off-topic.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 16:12 utc | 283

276
In other words, the USA did what they did best, by far, (trucks and autos) .. which allowed the USSR to focus 100% on what they did best (tanks and artillery) And then the US sent about half those vehicles to the Eastern Front
In retrospect, a brilliant collaboration. Keep in mind, the Germans also did catastrophic damage to the industrial infrastructure in European USSR, so the Soviet Union’s actual output of 92K capable tanks is nothing short of miraculous

Posted by: Callmelennie | Jul 11 2023 16:12 utc | 284

HA! Just goes to show that workers like their leaders to stand out.
Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 15:59 utc | 279

It only shows the essential difference between classical Marxism and Marxism-Leninism, and the ultimate need for a revolutionary vanguard.

Posted by: Nobody | Jul 11 2023 16:15 utc | 285

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 16:12 utc | 283
My observation is that Western cultures have abandoned both reason and spirituality, leading to the worship of technology.
On this we can agree.
Probably way off-topic.
Indeed. And yet ultimately fundamental to the topic …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 11 2023 16:16 utc | 286

And Alaska to Russia.
Posted by: Revelo | Jul 11 2023 12:54 utc | 211
—————————————————–
Interesting concept, Revelo. Whatever gave you that idea?
The USA paid for ‘Seward’s Folly’, fair and square. I have seen the original receipt in the National Archives in DC on exhibit for all the world to see.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 11 2023 16:18 utc | 287

james no. 260
Good article, thankyou. I wonder if there is any merit in the last paragraph.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 11 2023 16:31 utc | 288

Posted by: Shoplifter | Jul 11 2023 10:27 utc | 191
Apples and oranges comparison, that’s rather like saying 10 sq m of real estate in Monaco is the same value as 10 sq m in Cairo, secondly what is the blood and treasure price paid, per sq km, that both sides have paid? If you have to play tricksy games with statistics you ain’t on the winning side, that’s for sure.
Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 11 2023 10:56 utc | 198
Don’t forget the: radios, engines, rolling stock, rails, explosives, aluminium, lathes, aviation fuel, and copper. We can forget the M-3’s though, or the ‘grave for seven brothers’.
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 11 2023 10:38 utc | 195
That was evil lord Sutekh, sorry Sunak’s job after the coup that removed Boris, reversing Brexit and ushering in at least five years of The establishment’s favoured party, Labour.

Posted by: Milites | Jul 11 2023 16:32 utc | 289

Also, US would never have set foot on European mainland without those results of battles German army had with Soviet army before D-Day. It would have ended up US nuking Berlin, like they did in Japan.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 16:04 utc | 281
—————————————————–
In support of that hypothesis, I have some data, having returned from a cruise past the French Atlantic coast.
The US war cemetery near Omaha Beach (cf. Saving Private Ryan) contains about 10,000 graves. There are three German war cemeteries not far away, said my tour guide when I asked.
The largest (Andilly) containing 33,085; the second largest (La Cambe) containing 21,200; Champigny-Saint-André 19,831 and the third Marigny 11,169.
I found a few more. France (Normandy) – World War II, source Wikipedia
Orglandes 10,152
Huisnes-sur-Mer 11,956

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 11 2023 16:38 utc | 290

Quote “The NATO Vilnius Summit begins on the 11th of July.”
Not only Ukraine is obsessed with vi LP is meeting but Russia also is fearful of Vilnius meet as shown by reference to it so many times by the pro Russia commentators.
If Russia had been powerful then she would not wait for this or that meeting. Russia was even waiting for American election result as if that would have changed things this she’s that Russia has no guts .that is why 3rd rate country Ike England harasses, insults,plots against Russia with impunity and Russia looks sideways

Posted by: Sam | Jul 11 2023 17:03 utc | 291

@207 echo chamber
I truly enjoyed your explanation of how money and taxes work.
Fortunately(?) for russia they’ve been sanctioned so much their resources, particularly energy, is being fed back into their economy. Their energy prices are relatively much cheaper than their competitors which will show eventually into a huge advantage.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 11 2023 17:16 utc | 292

Posted by: Sam | Jul 11 2023 17:03 utc | 292
Who wouldn’t be nervous about the NATO meeting? Regardless of the position you hold, you would really need to be a complete moron NOT to be nervous.
First of all their proxy is clearly losing the war and losing spectacularly, despite being armed and marshalled by NATO. Second, bear in mind the fact that they are a bunch of ideologically driven, intellectually sub par war-mongers presided over by Biden who is in provable cognitive decline (I’m being kind) and liable to do anything.

Posted by: airstrip1 | Jul 11 2023 17:25 utc | 293

Since Ukrainians have almost no aviation and they are significantly inferior to the Russians in the amount of artillery,
Feels like a high time to congratulate Ukrainians for succesfully infecting gringos with their the-phobia…

Posted by: Arioch | Jul 11 2023 17:26 utc | 294

The Russians and the Straussian West are both interested in destroying the Ukrainians. For somewhat different reasons.
Posted by: catbonez | Jul 11 2023 15:11 utc | 257
———————————————————
The Straussian’s (neo-cons) are interested in destroying Russia, and they are willing to destroy Ukraine to do it. Russia is not an anyway interested in destroying Ukraine, Putin has proved that in his SMO, which is slow and careful. The decision to use Ukraine as a proxy to weaken Russia was made by US and NATO Bloc neo-cons. It wasn’t necessary, the US and the NATO Bloc were not in danger if Ukraine and Georgia remained a natural. Both countries are/were free to do business with the EU, but the EU (that is to say the NATO Bloc) demanded that President Viktor Yanukovych agree to a business arrangement with the EU only, and not with Russia as well. Putin was fine with Ukrainian’s doing business with both the EU and Russia, and that is what Yanukovych wanted to do.
The Nuland’s in the Obama Administration said FUCK the EU and Yanukovych and did a coup d’état against the government of Ukraine in 2014.
I provide you catbonez with this information because, based on your comment, you do not seem to be aware of what’s going on in the world around you.

Posted by: Ed | Jul 11 2023 17:35 utc | 295

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 11 2023 16:38 utc | 291
And the outcome of those battles would have not been the same, without Lend Lease and the diversion of a considerable percentage of German aircraft and AD systems. Your point being?
The moment Russia and her supporters vanquish their insecurities will be the moment Russia has undoubtably bested the West. The British traditionally were very courteous toward opponents, often creating narratives that were positively flattering, simply because in their heart of hearts they know they were the best, hence the traditional rivalry with the French who have a similar sense of their own superiority. Nowadays, the relentless stream of propaganda only goes to show a collapse in that institutional certitude, a result of their undermining the very pillars that supported it, often for personal gain.

Posted by: Milites | Jul 11 2023 17:45 utc | 296

@Gringo
Quote “Every war is a jewish war but try telling that to Col. McGreggor who–”
Not at all
Every war is England’s plotting.it is English pirate race that plots all major wars .including 1st and 2nd world wars. Iraq war, Syrian war and this Ukraine war.
They blame Jews and Russians to distract from themselves . Russia must annihilate English pirates for saving Russia and the world there is no other way it is Anglo-Saxon war on the non Anglo world

Posted by: Sam | Jul 11 2023 18:41 utc | 297

Warning signs have been there for a long time but appeasement by Russia has emboldened pirate English race to plot more wars brazenly .
.
Chechnya ’s sitting President Ramzan Kadyrov, who was a teenager during the First Chechen War, believes that the war in Chechnya was masterminded by the West. Western countries, Kadyrov thinks, instigated the war to make the USSR and then Russia collapse.
“It is an open secret nowadays that the Soviet Union fell apart contrary to the will of its people. They decided in the West that they should not stop at that. They wanted to fire up a local war which would embrace more regions and eventually weaken or even destroy Russia as a joint nation,” Kadyrov told journalists December 11,2009 .in Grozny.
august 2013.
“the source said the US and Britain are looking at the new Al-Qaeda force as an instrument to attain their goals and do not intend to support them to ascend to power, “because if Salafi elements in Syria ascend to power, they will create many problems for the US, the Western states and Turkey in future”.
“Thus, the US, Britain and Turkey are looking at the Al-Qaeda as a tactical instrument,” he said, and warned of the regional and global repercussions of the US and Turkish aid to the Al-Qaeda and Salafi groups.
“Unfortunately, these group of countries have just focused on the short-term benefits that the Salafis and the Al-Qaeda can provide for them and ignore the perils of this support in the long run,” he said.
“At present, the western countries, specially Britain which hosts and controls the Jihadi Salafi groups throughout the world are paving the ground for these extremists to leave their homes – mostly in Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab Emirates (UAE) as well as those who live in Europe and the US – for Waziristan,” the source added.

Posted by: Sam | Jul 11 2023 19:08 utc | 298

The UK regime reportedly intends to severely blur the difference / divide between military and civil administration, with a potentially “thin end of the wedge” proposal “to allow soldiers to ‘zigzag’ between civil service and military”.
Bear in mind that the UK military now has at least two brigades — best known being the 77th — which are entirely for the production and distribution of political propaganda and disinformation.
Sunak said (Daily Telegraph, 11 July 2023):

.. what we are doing is making it easier for people to move from the services into the civil service and into government so we can then benefit from their expertise because that set of skills is equally valuable to the country and government.

The military officers would repeatedly switch between (supposedly non-political) civil service, military, and government itself….
Innocuous, or the trial of a form of militarised control of the future public within NATO?

Posted by: Cynic | Jul 12 2023 0:20 utc | 299

” Of course, this leads to great losses of Ukrainians but, as I said at the beginning, they are not sensitive to the death of their soldiers.”
Correction, the Jewish government that runs Ukraine (in cahoots with the Jewish oligarchy that runs the USA) is not sensitive to the death of Slavs. In fact, that is very likely part of the plan. Make Ukraine a second Israel.

Posted by: jim | Jul 12 2023 2:02 utc | 300