Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
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July 20, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-173
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict. The current open thread for other issues here. Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Comments
Perhaps not many people on “our side” are yet ready to ask the hard questions, but since it’s all come down to this, we might as well start asking them. What the hell was the point of the grain deal in the first place? I don’t think that helping out a scum-bucket like Erdogan was worth it, do you? And now, supposedly, Russia intends to retaliate for the latest Kerch bridge terrorist attack by targeting more Ukrainian “decision-making centers.” Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 14:28 utc | 1 The war will be decided (in Russia’s favor) by logistics but this will take time. The battle for political support requires short-term symbolic actions, like responses to provocations. Putin and his advisors have a stock of moves that can satisfy their public’s need for symbolic responses. For example, on any given day, Russia could level the main government buildings in Kiev. Striking decision centers is part of this reserve of political actions. Posted by: HH | Jul 20 2023 14:40 utc | 2 #1 Intelligent Dasein…you are right…if your enemies torture your soldiers, kill innocent civilians ..do openly terrorist acts against non military personnel and infrastructure..you do not act against them with.. police action (SMO)…wander what it take VVP/SHOIGU to start real war against NATO forces already in the UKRAINE territory….. 1: “By ordering the deployment of 3,000 more reservists to Europe, US President Joe Biden is preparing to fight Russian forces on the ground in Ukraine, Democratic presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has said. ‘I want people to understand what this troop mobilization is about. It’s about preparing for a ground war with Russia,’ he said.” Posted by: doim | Jul 20 2023 14:57 utc | 5 The Million Monkey Paradigm Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jul 20 2023 15:00 utc | 6 Lots of concern posted here… Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 20 2023 15:06 utc | 7 I.D. & Sejmon, Posted by: Dfnslblty | Jul 20 2023 15:09 utc | 8 What’s the point of the grain deal? Judging from western hysterics, the point had been to ship arms in while shipping grain out. Apparently, that’s all over now. Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jul 20 2023 15:11 utc | 9 Posted by: doim | Jul 20 2023 14:57 utc | 5. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has said. ‘I want people to understand what this troop mobilization is about. It’s about preparing for a ground war with Russia,’ he said.” Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jul 20 2023 15:13 utc | 10 @1. The whole point of the SMO appears to be the presontation of the narrative “say hello to the new boss not even close to the same as the old boss” Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 20 2023 15:13 utc | 11 Looks like the Black Sea is going to host a big game of Battleship with Russia and Ukraine threatening to take out ships heading to Russian and Ukrainian ports. Posted by: gottlieb | Jul 20 2023 15:14 utc | 12 My theory as to why the military operation is taking so long: Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Jul 20 2023 15:25 utc | 13 Intelligent Dasein@1….. apparently you know no more about war than I do, or so I’ve been told. Agree with everything you have written….what the SloMo ditherers miss that while Russia may have the upper finger and thumb, well, that thingy that blew in Crimea after the RF reprisal attack, hmm, still going off and they had to move three towns of people out. That’s winning? That’ll end? When Russia takes Odessa and the coast? SloMo work in progress …….death piled high. Oh and they might get F16s to carry the nbombs, which some speculate, Mr Putin himself, that they may even have kicking around. If they can rig a SU to carry SCALPS and Shadows, they can be modified for other more lethal weapons systems. And, have you noticed, they never even come close to running out of fuel for all their military equipment. It might lead one to believe, the RF is not attacking fuel supplies on purpose. I guess it’s needed to bring the NATO weapons to the front. Cause that’s what you do in war. You give your enemy every chance you can and even supply them with materials so they can kill you…..and that, apparently, is how war works. Not sure if Sun Tzu(sp) covered that part. Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 20 2023 15:31 utc | 14 Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Jul 20 2023 15:25 utc | 13 Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 15:38 utc | 15 There are only two types of Navy ships… submarines and targets. (McGregor) Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 15:39 utc | 16 Putin is a stronger leader than those of us in the West are accustomed to, but he is not an aggressive man. And he is, I think, touched by what I think of as the Russian disease…he, like so many other Russians, wants to be part of the West, not fight with it. Of course, we’ve gone so far off the deep end these days that even the most pro-western Russians have got to be thinking, “Wtf?”. Posted by: bemused observer | Jul 20 2023 15:53 utc | 17 I only see 2 options clearly anyways. Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 20 2023 15:56 utc | 18 John McIntyre is an American soldier who went to Ukraine, observed and recorded what was going on, and then after a year defected to Russia. The linked story in Newsweek was published in early March. Interestingly, an interview with McIntyre uploaded shortly afterwards has accrued less than 1500 views on youtube. Posted by: farm ecologist | Jul 20 2023 15:59 utc | 19 @ farm ecologist | Jul 20 2023 15:59 utc | 19 Posted by: james | Jul 20 2023 16:04 utc | 20 @ Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 14:28 utc | 1 Posted by: james | Jul 20 2023 16:09 utc | 21 Posted by: james | Jul 20 2023 16:04 utc | 20 Posted by: farm ecologist | Jul 20 2023 16:23 utc | 22 If you know where these decision-making centers are, and you have the ability to target them, and targeting them would hurt Ukraine, then what the blessed fuck are they still doing there in the first place? Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 17:39 utc | 23 How many more times will I have to explain this? Posted by: Zet | Jul 20 2023 17:45 utc | 24 I forgot, I also have to explain every time Russia bombs command centers all the time, “retaliation” or not. Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 17:47 utc | 25
What a comical juxtaposition. Do you not see what you just said? Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 17:56 utc | 26 @1 intelligent daesin Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 18:03 utc | 27 What a comical juxtaposition. Do you not see what you just said? Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 18:17 utc | 28 Do you remember why they didnt bomb the GRU building? Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 18:27 utc | 29 If I remember, so long ago in the SloMo, but decision making centres were on the RF target list, that was untill someone painted rainbow lines over Russia’s red ones…… Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 20 2023 18:53 utc | 30 “A drone attacked the northwestern part of Crimea early in the morning, killing a 14-year-old teenage girl. Four administrative buildings were also damaged, head of the republic Sergey Aksenov said in his Telegram channel.” Posted by: rk | Jul 20 2023 19:00 utc | 31 Grain deal is about making Beer ! And feeding Pigs ! Somewhat Bread on occasion, the crusty one not the folding , wallet , types ! Australian soldier saying “6 cans per man per day “ or no war ! Posted by: George Plethon | Jul 20 2023 19:00 utc | 32 If russia’s goals is to get more NATO around, destroy economy, lose markets, lose allies and get enemies, murder and maul russians and russian-speaking Ukrainians, militarize and extremize Ukraine – these goals are already met. Posted by: Jan | Jul 20 2023 19:05 utc | 33 For clarification russia agreed to the grain deal because they can’t actually enforce a blockade. Any surface ship will get sunk within range of antiship missles. Therefore theres no cost to trying it and multiple possible benefits. Having failed at realizing the benefits the Russians have started hitting the port facilities with missles, the big targets ukraine constructed while protected by the deal. You’ll not there’s no naval action accompanying it, nor can there be. At most some stray mines will be snuck in. Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 19:15 utc | 34
Are you saying that Russia is not competent to find and destroy Ukrainian commanders? That is a strange way of defending Russia’s superiority. Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 19:18 utc | 35 @34 Jan Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 19:22 utc | 36 @36 intelligent dasein Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 19:28 utc | 37 Assisted assassinations…….don’t let anyone know where you are. Like, New Year’s parties in war zones, bad form. Like lunch with your wife, a few miles from the front, like, really bad form. Like a General taking a crap in a hotel’s bogs, far from the front, gets his and several officers asses SCALPed. Shuuuush, don’t tell anyone where you are. Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 20 2023 19:32 utc | 38 Wagner seems to be settling in nicely in Belarus and is even doing combat training with the Belarusian army. Posted by: Brendan | Jul 20 2023 19:38 utc | 39 Comment from someone on the Duran. Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 19:39 utc | 40 @ scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 19:39 utc | 41 Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 20:05 utc | 41 Are you saying that Russia is not competent to find and destroy Ukrainian commanders? That is a strange way of defending Russia’s superiority. Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 20:13 utc | 42 Can this be proved? It made me nauseous..😣 Posted by: DunGroanin | Jul 20 2023 20:42 utc | 43 Who is closer to ‘winning’? Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 20 2023 20:45 utc | 44 I think the best Copium Ukr Thread is that one Reddit as always Posted by: Macpott | Jul 20 2023 20:57 utc | 45 Wagner cemetery: Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 20 2023 20:59 utc | 46 @45 west of England Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 21:22 utc | 47 This is a general comment. Russian tank guns are being used for indirect fire and directed by drones. It seems logical to me to merge counter battery radar with advancing tank columns and using the indirect fire capabilities of the 125mm gun for counter battery fire. Tanks need some offensive punch against artillery. Also some armored units are sent as kamikazes towards trench lines filled with explosives. They need to use this tactic to draw artillery fire for counter battery action… this would save lives imho…. Posted by: Mirrorspock | Jul 20 2023 21:31 utc | 48 Military summary: Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 21:31 utc | 49 Alert declared at Kerch bridge. Drivers should evacuate it. Posted by: La Défaite Russe | Jul 20 2023 21:36 utc | 50 Also, incoming artillery shells can be detected acoustically with drone based microphones. Several drones in the air and geolocated can triangulate the position of an artillery piece. Drones can transmit to the operator who performs the triangulation…. on an app … lol. Just need an accurate speed of sound measurement for the weather conditions…. Posted by: Mirrorspock | Jul 20 2023 21:50 utc | 51 @ Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 21:22 utc | 48 Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 22:02 utc | 52
Two little piglets in Spain. Wonder if these will ever get rounded up or not? Because they are needed for the war effort to be kept going. Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 22:08 utc | 53 Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 14:28 utc | 1 Posted by: watcher | Jul 21 2023 0:10 utc | 54 Some videos for today. Posted by: Nate | Jul 21 2023 0:25 utc | 55 Military summary: Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 21 2023 2:20 utc | 56 The Big Reveal — Posted by: blues | Jul 21 2023 2:24 utc | 57 As an ex combat soldier familiar with US and NATO warfare, I find it amazing that most analysis and thought surrounding this conflict does not seem to realize that warfare is changing before their very eyes and all the old paradigms are either being washed away or fundamentally altered. Posted by: Archetypex | Jul 21 2023 2:29 utc | 58 If things end up spiraling out of control, there is no way that the verdict of history will fail to place a good portion of the blame directly on Putin himself for dragging this conflict out and not acting more directly. Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 21 2023 2:45 utc | 59 Re: Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 17:56 utc | 27
They are clearly not targeted for one obvious reason – Russia doesn’t want to. Posted by: Julian | Jul 21 2023 3:25 utc | 60 No idea wtf to make of this one: https://www.ft.com/content/85161699-2808-45b2-800d-46189916fe9e Posted by: OrCastrated Mess | Jul 21 2023 3:30 utc | 61 You all need to understand Russia is fighting NATO, the war isn’t over because the Russians are fighting one of the largest armies on the planet, they have been heavily outnumbered the entire time. Ukraine has had “modern weapons” since day one. Posted by: OohCanada | Jul 21 2023 3:38 utc | 62 Re: Posted by: OrCastrated Mess | Jul 21 2023 3:30 utc | 62 Posted by: Julian | Jul 21 2023 3:48 utc | 63 OH FFS Posted by: watcher | Jul 21 2023 4:02 utc | 64 Below is a current Reuters posting heading and sub heading
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 21 2023 5:51 utc | 65 pyschohistorian no. 66 Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 21 2023 7:45 utc | 66 Posted by: Mirrorspock | Jul 20 2023 21:31 utc | 49 Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 21 2023 8:30 utc | 67 From @Grayzone TG translated url Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jul 21 2023 9:30 utc | 68 On the territory of Belarus🇧🇾 joint exercises of special operations forces of the Armed Forces of the Republic and fighters of the PMC “Wagner Group” are held 🪖 Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jul 21 2023 10:37 utc | 69 Julian@61…..they can resolve them, yes? But they don’t for their own reasons……I suppose that makes sense as long as one isn’t getting needlessly killed. We need more deaths, needless senseless deaths…..but never ever, for fear of the Unknown Merc, kill the leaders, that might lead to something scary…… Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 21 2023 11:19 utc | 70 Ukrainian forces have begun using US-supplied cluster bombs – which are banned by more than 120 countries – in the ‘“last week or so” and they are “having an impact” on Russian defences, a White House spokesperson has said. Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 21 2023 12:18 utc | 71 And: Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 21 2023 12:21 utc | 72 Putin at Security Council – Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian military unit is planned to be used for the subsequent occupation of Ukraine. Poland wants to tear off part of the western territory of Ukraine and Belarus under the NATO umbrella, this is a dangerous game. Unleashing a war by Poland against Belarus means a war against Russia. Posted by: rk | Jul 21 2023 12:23 utc | 73 Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 21 2023 5:51 utc | 66 Posted by: unimperator | Jul 21 2023 12:42 utc | 74 blues @ 58 Posted by: thecelticwithinme | Jul 21 2023 13:04 utc | 75 Could somebody help with an aspect of the Grain Deal, which I find quite important, but could not find any source:
So – are we talking about a not fulfilled agreement or new demands from one side? The closest description I could find is a quotation from TASS (retranslated from the German version at anti-spiegel.ru):
So apparantly there are three declarations/agreements around, one from RF (fulfilled), one from UA (fulfilled?) and one from the UN (warm words about support, not fulfilled) – is that correct? Any chance to read these documents somewhere?
Dumped the stress test, no doubt … Posted by: Udkanten | Jul 21 2023 13:10 utc | 76 Posted by: Udkanten | Jul 21 2023 13:10 utc | 77 Posted by: unimperator | Jul 21 2023 13:44 utc | 77
… quoted from United Nations Black Sea Grain Initiative Joint Coordination Centre
Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Jul 21 2023 15:40 utc | 79 A little history about the Young Guard, children who took up arms in defence of Donbass during The Great Patriotic war (WW2) and their influence today. NOTE: The shorter YT link is no longer accessible having been taken down at some point today. However the longer documentary is till up and accessible on Rumble.
Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Jul 21 2023 16:14 utc | 80 a lot of arrests are going on now. most are from the circles around Surkov. not only Strelkov. Pavel Gubarev has been arrested an hour ago. a volunteer battalion Vihr is getting disarmed by FSB right now. an admin of a number of telegram channels (Kremlevskaya Prachka, Nezygar, Brief, Siloviki) was arrested two weeks ago. Posted by: Dread White Gazebo | Jul 21 2023 19:32 utc | 82 Strelkov’s main thesis is that Putin miscalculated the beginning of the war, which led to a lot of deaths. Keeps only loyal generals who are not able to win, and Putin removes those who are capable. Putin makes numerous concessions to the West in the hope that he will be forgiven. but he does not understand that the fate of Kadaffi or Miloschevich awaits him. To win the war, it is necessary to declare full mobilization and firmly and clearly state what the authorities want to achieve in general, but Putin does not do this because he does not know what he wants. Most likely, he wants to negotiate with the West on his own terms (a neutral Ukraine) and continue to live as before the war, but this will not happen. Putin is silent a lot, afraid to take responsibility for the war. Posted by: MXTN | Jul 21 2023 19:38 utc | 83 Strelkov is a real patriot. Putin don’t like such people. Our country is literally under attack and the cuck Grampa does nothing. Posted by: Oleg | Jul 21 2023 19:40 utc | 84 The domestic crackdown post prigozhin has been so interesting and hints at the factional struggle within the kremlin Posted by: basedandcoolpilled | Jul 21 2023 19:42 utc | 85
Posted by: Hardback Writer | Jul 21 2023 19:53 utc | 86 Bad time for Turkey to violate their agreement with Russia and release those AZOV members. Can’t imagine Russia will be too trusting in any future deals with Turkey involving the war in Ukraine. Posted by: Cheeto Babi | Jul 21 2023 19:56 utc | 87 Nobody trusts Turkey. Posted by: Figureitoutfboy | Jul 21 2023 20:00 utc | 88
Straight from the mouth of the arch-neocon in the top inner circle of the U.S. ruling clique. Posted by: Thevaram Acolytus | Jul 21 2023 20:06 utc | 89 Yeah, so stupid they stayed somewhat neutral the entire conflict which had them as pretty much the only credible negotiater and they fuck all of that up after 2 years to release a few larper nazi’s Posted by: Jase | Jul 21 2023 20:08 utc | 90 They’re clearly trying to find any way they can to undermine Russia. So from their perspective they get Russia to agree to this grain deal and that allows Ukrainian grain to leave for a little bit which lessens their burden and apparently gives them cover to launch attacks on Crimea from Odessa. If Russia pulls out they go to plan B which is launch a vicious propaganda campaign about how Russia is starving the world. That’s probably why Nuland is going to Africa right now to mess with BRICS countries. “Putin is trying to starve you! Why are you on his side?” Of course, Russia foresaw this and has apparently offered Russian grain to these countries for free. These people are just psychopaths. Posted by: ThrowsiesAwayForLife | Jul 21 2023 20:14 utc | 91 Posted by: basedandcoolpilled | Jul 21 2023 19:42 utc | 85 Yeah, but they are so caught up in their own propaganda that they really believe the entire world thinks the way they do. It’s also in their nature to just go on the attack at all times. They’re always scheming. Posted by: ThrowsiesAwayForLife | Jul 21 2023 20:16 utc | 93 https://edwardslavsquat.substack.com/p/39-questions-about-the-war-in-ukraine
Strelkov said last year that if he was arrested it would mean that the Liberal Oligarch wing is taking over and the patriot wing will have lost in which case Putin will not be pushing to ‘win’ in Ukraine rather find accommodation with the West, yet again. Interesting that this is now happening a few days after Kissinger in China…..
Posted by: Myrianda | Jul 21 2023 20:44 utc | 95 check out this crazy shit: Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 21 2023 20:53 utc | 96 indian punchline from today Posted by: james | Jul 21 2023 20:59 utc | 97 Storm clouds gathering in the Black Sea Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 21 2023 21:03 utc | 98 Re: Strelkov, Prigozhin, etc… Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 21 2023 21:24 utc | 99 IMO those 39 questions are worth reading. Here is a long comment in response by someone who has written an entire book on Russia-Ukraine, an answer to those 39 questions: |
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