Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 20, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-173

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Comments

Perhaps not many people on “our side” are yet ready to ask the hard questions, but since it’s all come down to this, we might as well start asking them. What the hell was the point of the grain deal in the first place? I don’t think that helping out a scum-bucket like Erdogan was worth it, do you? And now, supposedly, Russia intends to retaliate for the latest Kerch bridge terrorist attack by targeting more Ukrainian “decision-making centers.”
Well, that leads to an even harder question. If you know where these decision-making centers are, and you have the ability to target them, and targeting them would hurt Ukraine, then what the blessed fuck are they still doing there in the first place? This is war, for crying out load. Target everything you can, as quickly as you can, and destroy the enemy before he has a chance to hurt you. Why would you let the enemy just hang around your neck like big, ugly leech, looking for an opportunity to sneak in another sucker punch?
Russia’s behavior is very baffling now, and it’s obvious in retrospect that Prigozhin was acting with genuine concern when he staged his so-called mutiny. Russia goes around the world making agreements that do it absolutely no good whatsoever, simply so that it can say it agreed to something. The purpose of negotiations should be to benefit your own country, although Putin seems not to have learned that part. He just seems to enjoy the process for its own sake.
If things end up spiraling out of control, there is no way that the verdict of history will fail to place a good portion of the blame directly on Putin himself for dragging this conflict out and not acting more directly.

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 14:28 utc | 1

The war will be decided (in Russia’s favor) by logistics but this will take time. The battle for political support requires short-term symbolic actions, like responses to provocations. Putin and his advisors have a stock of moves that can satisfy their public’s need for symbolic responses. For example, on any given day, Russia could level the main government buildings in Kiev. Striking decision centers is part of this reserve of political actions.

Posted by: HH | Jul 20 2023 14:40 utc | 2

#1 Intelligent Dasein…you are right…if your enemies torture your soldiers, kill innocent civilians ..do openly terrorist acts against non military personnel and infrastructure..you do not act against them with.. police action (SMO)…wander what it take VVP/SHOIGU to start real war against NATO forces already in the UKRAINE territory…..

Posted by: sejmon | Jul 20 2023 14:43 utc | 3

1:
Taking them quickly out would only make them martyrs and heroes. Better to let them expose themselves the scumbags and villains they are. Let the cauldron simmer.

Posted by: Catilina | Jul 20 2023 14:53 utc | 4

“By ordering the deployment of 3,000 more reservists to Europe, US President Joe Biden is preparing to fight Russian forces on the ground in Ukraine, Democratic presidential candidate Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has said. ‘I want people to understand what this troop mobilization is about. It’s about preparing for a ground war with Russia,’ he said.”
Victoria Nuland has not only “fuck[ed] the EU”, but the US as well:
https://jamesburrillangell.substack.com/p/strange-diplomacy-victoria-fck-the

Posted by: doim | Jul 20 2023 14:57 utc | 5

The Million Monkey Paradigm
Given time enough, even unlikely events are likely.
Recent photographs show Zelensky and Putin visibly time-worn.
War is not an art despite its famous self-claim. War also is not a kindergarten staring contest. Kinesis rules the day.
Everything bad happens to he who waits.

Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jul 20 2023 15:00 utc | 6

Lots of concern posted here…
Ukraine is headed for the drain. Russia will come out on top.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 20 2023 15:06 utc | 7

I.D. & Sejmon,
Turkey’s people are not scumbags, and the “if”s need to be capitalized and factualized.
Otan/Nato/the west/usa is the aggressor.
And as such, they should be grateful for Russia’s temperance in not warring further in face of the west’s belligerence.
The desire for hegemony/empire is based on fear.
The west needs serious counselling to avoid its self-destruction — think suicide prevention …

Posted by: Dfnslblty | Jul 20 2023 15:09 utc | 8

What’s the point of the grain deal? Judging from western hysterics, the point had been to ship arms in while shipping grain out. Apparently, that’s all over now.
Putin Strikes Back: Ukrainian Ports Devastated To Cap Grain Deal’s Termination
It’s nearly time to “strike,” as show-biz people say, in the Ukraine theater: to put away the folding chairs after the show is over. That’s the sense I get from Simplicius’ sitrep. Backstage: mounting desperation for Biden’s Ukraine gambit gang.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jul 20 2023 15:11 utc | 9

Posted by: doim | Jul 20 2023 14:57 utc | 5. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. has said. ‘I want people to understand what this troop mobilization is about. It’s about preparing for a ground war with Russia,’ he said.”
Not really. Biden and his ilks are doing a PR narrative: I am a war-President, let’s keep Biden and America strong. This reserve call-up was a PR stunt for 2024 primary season. Biden would not dare and he said so several times that US will not fight Russia directly.
All show, no substance, that is the gist of Biden’s whole political career. Obama had seen through Biden clearly. In December 2020, he warned that the Americans should not “under-estimate Biden’s abilities to f**k things up”. Well, Biden got elected. Debts and printed fiat money are sky high. What else has he achieved? Any?

Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jul 20 2023 15:13 utc | 10

@1. The whole point of the SMO appears to be the presontation of the narrative “say hello to the new boss not even close to the same as the old boss”
Only anti humans dont get it….Do you?

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 20 2023 15:13 utc | 11

Looks like the Black Sea is going to host a big game of Battleship with Russia and Ukraine threatening to take out ships heading to Russian and Ukrainian ports.
Does Blackrock have salvage operations too?

Posted by: gottlieb | Jul 20 2023 15:14 utc | 12

My theory as to why the military operation is taking so long:
Ukraine is an economic trip wire for the west as much as it was military trip wire for Russia.
A joint plan by Putin & Jinping to overthrow the US empire by dismantling US mandated global finance system
You see, most countries in the global south have broken economic systems and so much corruption that their elite/rich keep their stash in offshore accounts & instruments in dollars and euros.
It is those elite who are the primary obstacles to de-dollarization, not the US military.
Since government confiscation a.k.a. communism, is proven not to work in the long run, there has to be a better way. A scare tactic that posits assets could be frozen by the whims of the western class seems to be chosen as a carrot for de-dollarization. All is required is a demonstration.
Further, as long as Ukraine has a fighting chance, it keeps G7 politicians occupied/distracted while China acts to consolidate political and economic alliances around which it’s certainly doing since the last 12 months.
Teamwork by Putin and Jinping. If I sound too much like a conspiracy theorist, let me point out that they were caught on camera casually talking how they’re “driving changes together that the world has not seen in 100 years”.
Somebody in the Russian military brass (I don’t remember who it was or when or where I heard it, Duran I think) did say the timetable for conclusion is 2024. Given, what I said above, it makes sense as to why there would even be a timetable a whole 2 years ahead. So I wouldn’t hold my breathe for the armed conflict concluding soon, although I’m puzzled as to how Ukraine would continue from here with nothing left.

Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Jul 20 2023 15:25 utc | 13

Intelligent Dasein@1….. apparently you know no more about war than I do, or so I’ve been told. Agree with everything you have written….what the SloMo ditherers miss that while Russia may have the upper finger and thumb, well, that thingy that blew in Crimea after the RF reprisal attack, hmm, still going off and they had to move three towns of people out. That’s winning? That’ll end? When Russia takes Odessa and the coast? SloMo work in progress …….death piled high. Oh and they might get F16s to carry the nbombs, which some speculate, Mr Putin himself, that they may even have kicking around. If they can rig a SU to carry SCALPS and Shadows, they can be modified for other more lethal weapons systems. And, have you noticed, they never even come close to running out of fuel for all their military equipment. It might lead one to believe, the RF is not attacking fuel supplies on purpose. I guess it’s needed to bring the NATO weapons to the front. Cause that’s what you do in war. You give your enemy every chance you can and even supply them with materials so they can kill you…..and that, apparently, is how war works. Not sure if Sun Tzu(sp) covered that part.
Cheers M
I’m kinda looking forward to the first Brit or Yank flagged ship to sail for Odessa…..will another red line get washed out?

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 20 2023 15:31 utc | 14

Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Jul 20 2023 15:25 utc | 13
Aleks on BMA says that the organized resistance will be gone soon. But the unorganized resistance may continue for years. A primary concern for Russia was to avoid fighting for every single town in Ukraine the same way they had to do in Mariupol.
Larry Johnson also compared AFU to a clone that’s getting continuously re-cloned. The end result is the clone down the line will be CP/retarded. That’s what’s happening in AFU and the command structure, experience levels decline, the level of command adequacy declines and you get simply more stupid stuff, stupid attacks and decisions going on the battlefield.
Sure, the Nato wundewaffle has caused damage to Russians and their commanders too, unfortunately. But mainly Storm shadow and Himars are applicable in areas which aren’t defended / lower priority, because RU air defense is completely adapted to them and by reports has very high intercept ratio.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 15:38 utc | 15

There are only two types of Navy ships… submarines and targets. (McGregor)

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 15:39 utc | 16

Putin is a stronger leader than those of us in the West are accustomed to, but he is not an aggressive man. And he is, I think, touched by what I think of as the Russian disease…he, like so many other Russians, wants to be part of the West, not fight with it. Of course, we’ve gone so far off the deep end these days that even the most pro-western Russians have got to be thinking, “Wtf?”.
But it has been like that for Russia for centuries…they wanted to be part of the ‘European Club’, but it was a club of snobs who never accepted them. The US, in that regard, is just the even snottier little brother of Europe, just keeping the whole shitty little junior high school cliche crap going…
Why do Russians even want to belong to this club? At this point, they should be making their own ‘club’, and I hope this BRICS thing is a start. Getting their economy off the western teat and running in a new direction will allow them to generate wealth outside the western banking system. But they have to get away from the rot that is today’s American culture…it isn’t blue jeans, rock music and action movies anymore. Now they’re sterilizing and mutilating our children over here, thank God they have a leader willing to stand up against this garbage, because we sure as hell don’t.
But I do believe that Putin harbors a faint hope that the current madness will burn itself out, and is hesitant about getting too ‘escalatey’ in the interim, if at all possible. Although I think the ‘club’ is becoming less and less desirable to many Russians, Putin hasn’t been willing to close all doors just yet. Some may call that weak, but it is in fact evidence of the kind of longer-term, big picture thinking that is so lacking among leaders these days.

Posted by: bemused observer | Jul 20 2023 15:53 utc | 17

I only see 2 options clearly anyways.
Option 1 The SMO is actually what it has been stated to be,many times by Russia. So…. not war as we knew/know it. ‘Kinder gentler machine gun hand’ Still doing bussiness w the enemy can be seen as Contractual. Again new boss is different than old boss.
Option 2. There are no sovereign elites and all parties are kay faybin and this all collapses into the hunger games for us and 21st century lifestyle for them.

Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 20 2023 15:56 utc | 18

John McIntyre is an American soldier who went to Ukraine, observed and recorded what was going on, and then after a year defected to Russia. The linked story in Newsweek was published in early March. Interestingly, an interview with McIntyre uploaded shortly afterwards has accrued less than 1500 views on youtube.
I am impressed by their shadow-banning abilities, but also dismayed.
Watch and share widely.

Posted by: farm ecologist | Jul 20 2023 15:59 utc | 19

@ farm ecologist | Jul 20 2023 15:59 utc | 19
one person who watched it was scott ritter. he included john mcintyre in is part 2 on zelensky..

Posted by: james | Jul 20 2023 16:04 utc | 20

@ Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 14:28 utc | 1
yes, things are baffling, so consider asking more questions as opposed to coming up with a lot of conclusions… try that for a change..

Posted by: james | Jul 20 2023 16:09 utc | 21

Posted by: james | Jul 20 2023 16:04 utc | 20
Yes, thanks for the reminder. The Ritter video (which should also be watched by all) is what originally clued me in to McIntyre’s story.

Posted by: farm ecologist | Jul 20 2023 16:23 utc | 22

If you know where these decision-making centers are, and you have the ability to target them, and targeting them would hurt Ukraine, then what the blessed fuck are they still doing there in the first place?
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 14:28 utc | 1
How many more times will I have to explain this?
You do not bomb command centers unless the commanders are actually there. Otherwise you are just bombing an empty building.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 17:39 utc | 23

How many more times will I have to explain this?
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 17:39 utc | 24
He is a troll and he is asking the same questions on every thread… maybe we could have a SloMO thread where we can safely ignore people like Intelligent Dasein instead of getting caught in their pointless rants every day, again and again…

Posted by: Zet | Jul 20 2023 17:45 utc | 24

I forgot, I also have to explain every time Russia bombs command centers all the time, “retaliation” or not.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 17:47 utc | 25

You do not bomb command centers unless the commanders are actually there. Otherwise you are just bombing an empty building.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 17:39 utc | 24
I forgot, I also have to explain every time Russia bombs command centers all the time, “retaliation” or not.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 17:47 utc | 26

What a comical juxtaposition. Do you not see what you just said?
Indeed. Russia seems to be well aware of that and has assiduously taken your point, considering that, despite supposedly bombing command centers “every day,” all the Ukrainian commanders are still alive and walking around, visiting foreign countries, giving interviews, etc. Absolutely no effort has been made to target them. Why is that?

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 17:56 utc | 26

@1 intelligent daesin
1.the grain deal was supposed to have benefits for russian exports, which failed to materialize. It was supposed to also offer a basis for peace talks and win win scenarios. It was worth a try, and since russia is hard pressed to actually keep ships afloat near the coast it didn’t cost too much either.
Worth the effort on its own merits, it was never mainly about erdogan.
2. Decision making centers are where nato personnel are located. Russia may not actually know where that is all the time. Knowing ukraine they probably keep day cares as sacrifices in their government buildings, so that’s tough. Also russia gets a lot of double agents lying to them. I imagine it’s pretty tough to find and hit them at the right time. So mostly that’s idle threats.
As for russian grand strategy this war has to end when nato calculates that pursuing anti russian policies isn’t worth it. A quick victory taking all of ukraine wouldn’t do it. They need to really suffer and that will take many years. So russia has to pace itself, it can’t throw all in at the beginning.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 18:03 utc | 27

What a comical juxtaposition. Do you not see what you just said?
Indeed. Russia seems to be well aware of that and has assiduously taken your point, considering that, despite supposedly bombing command centers “every day,” all the Ukrainian commanders are still alive and walking around, visiting foreign countries, giving interviews, etc. Absolutely no effort has been made to target them. Why is that?
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 17:56 utc | 27
Nothing comical about it.
Russia is not going to assassinate a commander on non ukrainian soil.
Why doesn’t Ukraine just launch missiles at all the front line generals?
Is war easy? Is it easy to know in a country where somebody is, especially somebody who is intentionally careful not to let their whereabouts be known?
Ever see a military parade of a country or faction at war, and wonder, “why dont they just bomb them during the parade,OMG, THEY WOULD KILLZ!!
Why didnt the allies “just bomb” all the nazi commanders on the fronts? Why did they bomb factories when they could “just bomb” command centers?
Hell, war is so easy, why even bother fighting soldiers, “Just bomb” the presidents or dictators, and end it!
Is there anything more chaotic, risky, multifaceted and difficult than war?
Is it so easy to do as you wish, Daesin? Is it simple? Is ot easy? Is it even doable?

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 18:17 utc | 28

Do you remember why they didnt bomb the GRU building?
Do you remember how they did it when they did, and supposedly killed Budanov, but didn’t?

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 18:27 utc | 29

If I remember, so long ago in the SloMo, but decision making centres were on the RF target list, that was untill someone painted rainbow lines over Russia’s red ones……
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 20 2023 18:53 utc | 30

“A drone attacked the northwestern part of Crimea early in the morning, killing a 14-year-old teenage girl. Four administrative buildings were also damaged, head of the republic Sergey Aksenov said in his Telegram channel.”

Posted by: rk | Jul 20 2023 19:00 utc | 31

Grain deal is about making Beer ! And feeding Pigs ! Somewhat Bread on occasion, the crusty one not the folding , wallet , types ! Australian soldier saying “6 cans per man per day “ or no war !

Posted by: George Plethon | Jul 20 2023 19:00 utc | 32

If russia’s goals is to get more NATO around, destroy economy, lose markets, lose allies and get enemies, murder and maul russians and russian-speaking Ukrainians, militarize and extremize Ukraine – these goals are already met.

Posted by: Jan | Jul 20 2023 19:05 utc | 33

For clarification russia agreed to the grain deal because they can’t actually enforce a blockade. Any surface ship will get sunk within range of antiship missles. Therefore theres no cost to trying it and multiple possible benefits. Having failed at realizing the benefits the Russians have started hitting the port facilities with missles, the big targets ukraine constructed while protected by the deal. You’ll not there’s no naval action accompanying it, nor can there be. At most some stray mines will be snuck in.
Now however at the very least russia has some propaganda points, that is to say they tried it the nice way. Similar to their proposal for nato to retreat. Hey at least peace was there first option?
And you know it’s not wrong. Because now nato propaganda can’t just say that Russia blocked the food without acknowledging that they had done so in the past which a modestly curious person would ask why?
At any rate it sounds like the Ports are receiving serious damage they’re alread6 estimating lengthy repair times and there’s enough doubt about russias naval capabilities to discourage shipping traffic, just in time for harvest.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 19:15 utc | 34

Is it so easy to do as you wish, Daesin? Is it simple? Is ot easy? Is it even doable?
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 18:17 utc | 29

Are you saying that Russia is not competent to find and destroy Ukrainian commanders? That is a strange way of defending Russia’s superiority.
In any case, you might want to direct your question not to me but to Putin. He is the one saying that Russia was winning from Day 1, that he hadn’t started anything serious yet, and that he could hit any building in Ukraine any time he wants.
And do you know what? I believe him. I believe Russia is quite obviously superior to this enemy. So again I ask, what the hell is the holdup?

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 19:18 utc | 35

@34 Jan
War was coming to Russia and its former imperial terriorites no matter what they did. You see the US needs russias nukes and space program gone for global domination. If they retreated strictly to their borders, it wouldn’t stop. The breakup of russia is the goal. So logically they elected to fight on Ukrainian territory so as to avoid the devastation on their own territory.
It’s a clear case of self defence as we can now see how kiev is actively trying to genocide the russian culture and language, next it’ll end Cyrillic and use the Latin alphabet. The religious schism as well. It’s all a template for canceling russia.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 19:22 utc | 36

@36 intelligent dasein
The Ukrainian leadership takes its orders from foreigners. There’s no point to hit them, it has no impact other than making martyrs. Better for them to keep barking and buying expensive cars. That’s a better message

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 19:28 utc | 37

Assisted assassinations…….don’t let anyone know where you are. Like, New Year’s parties in war zones, bad form. Like lunch with your wife, a few miles from the front, like, really bad form. Like a General taking a crap in a hotel’s bogs, far from the front, gets his and several officers asses SCALPed. Shuuuush, don’t tell anyone where you are.
Regardless of what Russia has done to date, the UsUk keep on sending Ukrainians to kill Russians. Will the Ukrainians run out of men, before Russia runs out of missiles…..seems 50/50 either way atm.
Ante is up …..bluffs be called…..get yer poker face on.
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 20 2023 19:32 utc | 38

Wagner seems to be settling in nicely in Belarus and is even doing combat training with the Belarusian army.
https://eng.belta.by/society/view/pmc-wagners-experience-deemed-invaluable-for-belarus-special-operations-forces-160410-2023/
No mention there of Prigozhin but there are other reports since yesterday of him with Wagner in Belarus.

Posted by: Brendan | Jul 20 2023 19:38 utc | 39

Comment from someone on the Duran.
‘RUSSIA DID NOT DESTROY ALL THE PORTS . . . . . THEY LEFT ONE (the largest) INTACKED. Smart Russia want a mutually working grain/fertilizer deal just as much as Ukraine.
There are 3 ports in the area of Odessa (1) Odessa Main Port (2) Odessa North (3) Several miles North of Odessa is the third and the largest GRAIN PORT by far. The Russian attacks over the last 3 days have been at port #1 and Port #2. The third has been untouched . . . so far. By the way #3 port’s Grain Terminal is where U.S. Cargill Agri-Corporation bought the massive Grain Export Terminal.
REPORTEDLY RUSSIA IS WILLING TO EXTEND THE GRAIN DEAL AS SOON AS THE WEST HONORS THEIR HALF OF THE DEAL (a) NO WEAPONS ON SHIPS (b) RUSSIA IS ALLOWED TO SHIP GRAIN AND FERTILIZER.
If the West doesnt ant to deal Port #3 (Cargill’s GrainTerminal) will most likely be taken out also.
It will be easy to monitor as Port #3 is all grain terminals. No warehouses to hide military equipment and ammo.
P.S. US Congress just authorized $260 million to aid Ukraine Farmers More charity for U.S. corporations. . LOL, U.S. Corporations Cargill and Monsanto bought up 46 Million acres of PRIME Ukraine Farmland as of September 2021. I’m sure that number has gone up much more’
Comments?

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 19:39 utc | 40

@ scepticalSOB | Jul 20 2023 19:39 utc | 41
All I heard is just before a contract for a rent on Sevastopol Naval Base was renegotiated, around 2013, the USA pressured Ukraine, that was in the mess itself, to change the constitution to forbid any foreign military to be stationed in Ukraine. They also had to restrict some laws on landownership and land lease duration. So probably that drove the big sell-off of the land there.
I do not know if they understand that every foreign investment in Ukraine, is like throwing money on the pyre. They will not get one single cent back, and I hope they are insured well.
Btw. RF needs a grain port too. And in silos you can hide whatever one wants, not too much, but enough. Izmail seems very strategic, too.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 20:05 utc | 41

Are you saying that Russia is not competent to find and destroy Ukrainian commanders? That is a strange way of defending Russia’s superiority.
In any case, you might want to direct your question not to me but to Putin. He is the one saying that Russia was winning from Day 1, that he hadn’t stopped
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 19:18 utc | 36
1) I am not defending Russia’s superiority. I am talking reality. You will find I often emphasize here that Russia’s losses are greater than generally assumed here, and Ukraine’s less. I also stress that this is not an easy war for Russia, and NATOs weapons and support are definitely making it difficult.
2) If a team doesn’t score a goal every half they play, does that mean they are incompetent?
3) You dont sound like you believe Russia is winning.
I think Russia will win. How costly it will be to Russia, and the world, is the bigger picture.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 20 2023 20:13 utc | 42

Can this be proved? It made me nauseous..😣
No wonder the paedo British and US establishments are so invested in the ukraine.
—————————

🔥 The thief’s hat is on fire. While Ukraine is screaming that Putin and Lukashenko have stolen its children, the kidnapping of Ukrainian children in the EU has reached simply shocking proportions.
➡️ May 2023. A 52-year-old Ukrainian refugee has been arrested in Poznan and accused of selling children to pedophiles. She came from the Dnepropetrovsk region last year. The woman has no children of her own, she brought up foster children – 10 children aged from four to 16 years old. Investigators found out that the woman sold children to pedophiles in Ukraine and Poland. It is noted that when the clients abused them, the Ukrainian woman stood next to them and watched the allotted time (the sessions lasted 20 minutes).
➡️ An entire orphanage with 85 children was sold to Spain from Ukraine. The children were taken to the EU from Mariupol back at the beginning of the SMO and they disappeared there. Spanish newspapers tried [to find out] what [happened to] the kids, but couldn’t.
➡️ 500 children from the territory of Donbass controlled by Kiev were taken to Poland and Israel by a certain little-known organization “Ukraine Without Orphans”. A Western religious organization, whose members call themselves “Neo-Pentecostals”, also plundered at the beginning of the SWO.
➡️ In the Netherlands, 170 Ukrainian teenagers were reported missing.
➡️ Another 30 or 40 children from another Ukrainian orphanage were supposed to have travelled from Madrid to the Canaries in Spain, but disappeared without a trace on the way.
➡️ Another 159 orphans were evacuated from southern Ukraine to Turkey, but their trail was lost. They were placed in a hotel in Antalya, allegedly for security reasons. The further fate of the children is unknown.
➡️ A group of 43 children from Ukraine was detained in Lithuania. The children from the private orphanage “Perlynka” were allegedly taken for “adoption” to other countries, but the caregivers are now suspected of human trafficking.
➡️ About a month ago, the Ukrayinska Pravda newspaper, citing the Ukrainian ombudsman for children’s rights, wrote about 240 cases of children being taken away from refugees in the EU countries because of incorrect documents. Social services removed children from refugee families “due to differences in legislation”.
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/55939

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jul 20 2023 20:42 utc | 43

Who is closer to ‘winning’?
Russia? If we go back to the start of the SMO we will find President V V Putin stating the twin aims of “demilitarisation and deNazification”. These appear to be proceeding at a studied, methodical and thorough pace, no particular need to rush. After all, Russia has been seeking an inclusive security arrangement for Europe since Munich 2007, at least.
Ukraine? Does Zelensky even have an idea of what Ukraine “winning” actually looks like?
Empire? For them, winning would be overthrowing the Russian peoples choice of leadership, installing a compliant stooge and proceeding to break the nation up, in order to facilitate the looting of natural resources to subsidise the financialised bloat that masquerades as ‘wealth’. They seem to be a long, long way from any of this.

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 20 2023 20:45 utc | 44

I think the best Copium Ukr Thread is that one Reddit as always
well the Copium for people like us is MoA – I like it more 🙂

Posted by: Macpott | Jul 20 2023 20:57 utc | 45

Wagner cemetery:
https://t.me/wagnernew/8941

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 20 2023 20:59 utc | 46

@45 west of England
Russia has always been happy to sell their resources at a fair price. For instance the German industrial economy was predicted on cheap russian energy and they didn’t try to raise the price very high. Clearly Germany was willing and able to pay more.
No, it’s the nukes and space program in russia that’s the target, their development as Putin would put it. Thus why they seem price insensitive to this whole effort. If it was just money they could’ve done a profitable business with russia.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 21:22 utc | 47

This is a general comment. Russian tank guns are being used for indirect fire and directed by drones. It seems logical to me to merge counter battery radar with advancing tank columns and using the indirect fire capabilities of the 125mm gun for counter battery fire. Tanks need some offensive punch against artillery. Also some armored units are sent as kamikazes towards trench lines filled with explosives. They need to use this tactic to draw artillery fire for counter battery action… this would save lives imho….

Posted by: Mirrorspock | Jul 20 2023 21:31 utc | 48

Military summary:
-RU actually made a small expanding of territory near Kamyanske (shore of Dnepr river in Zaporozhye)
-AFU tried to make some demining operation near Robotino but they can’t attack here
-little happening in Urozhaine and Staramayorske
-AFU launched an attack with AFVs and tanks near Ugledar, which were spotted and hit with mines and artillery (6-7 vehicles)
-RU trying to hold coal mine between Maryinka and Krasnogorovka. Details: the coal mine isn’t large and can’t hold lot of troops, reinforcements need to be called every time AFU attacks. AFU managed to ambush the RU reinforcements. The same obviously applies in reverse if AFU holds the coal mine area
-RU hit a hangar with AFU AFVs inside west of Avdeevka
-RU managed to restore some positions N of Avdeevka
-no clear picture of Klescheevka, it will be sorted out in a few days
-RU launched some offensive around Kupyansk, deduced from higher AFU losses
-T90 and T72Bm3 tank production level increase
-Also video of S-70 Hunter, which is very large
-Wagner forces deployed to the SW corner of Belarus conducting training with Belarus army

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 21:31 utc | 49

Alert declared at Kerch bridge. Drivers should evacuate it.
https://t.me/chp_simferopol/12987

Posted by: La Défaite Russe | Jul 20 2023 21:36 utc | 50

Also, incoming artillery shells can be detected acoustically with drone based microphones. Several drones in the air and geolocated can triangulate the position of an artillery piece. Drones can transmit to the operator who performs the triangulation…. on an app … lol. Just need an accurate speed of sound measurement for the weather conditions….

Posted by: Mirrorspock | Jul 20 2023 21:50 utc | 51

@ Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 21:22 utc | 48
Clearly Germany was willing and able to pay more.
Germans always like to get a stable delivery guarantees, first, than the real price.
However, the idea of a ‘cheap’ is based on longevity of a contract.
Ukraine was always a trouble there and in the way. Or they stole the gas, or they didn’t pay on time, customers suffered etc. Enter NordStream, get blocked there. This is not how do you deal with RF.
Also one can see a bit of 90’s atavism in our minds, that we got used to the idea of cheap and good quality fuel and that illusion is fading away.
No, it’s the nukes and space program in russia that’s the target, their development as Putin would put it.
From a country that depends on SpaceX to fly to low orbit once awhile? Really?
Also from a country that is still using B-61 gravity nuke on F-16 to deter RF in Europe. Country that used Ukraine to smash it against the steel wall of fire. That country with a semi-functioning hackable software, prone to the inserting the wrong info via EW, rebooting at random, overly-complicated AEGIS glass ‘shield’ Combat System and F-35 with 200 sensors keeping it in the air?
Ah, yes, NATO’s crucial land and sea elements are in the range of RF missiles. Probably in the low and high orbit too, so good luck with that, really.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 22:02 utc | 52

Makar and his friend are not going back to Ukraine, they weren’t born to die for politicians.
Makar and his friend are fine in Spain.
Anyways, good luck in Zaporozhye and Slava Ukraini
https://twitter.com/narrative_hole/status/1682100472591548416

Two little piglets in Spain. Wonder if these will ever get rounded up or not? Because they are needed for the war effort to be kept going.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 22:08 utc | 53

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 14:28 utc | 1
As a usually intelligent poster this comment makes me query your intent.
Of bloody course Turkey is important to Russia. Not just important critical. What sort of an imbecilic Russian government would deliberately alienate Turkey when it has control of the Bosporus and Russia’s only access to the Mediterranean. So can Turkey extract unreasonable concessions from Russia? Yes of bloody course. International relations is not a game of smash ans awe aka a kids computer game.
Does Russia/Putin like this? Probably not but Russia will try every single possibility to keep Turkey sweet until such time as WWIII happens and Turkey possibly is a major opponent. Turkey has the largest military in NATO after the US, as well as controlling access to the Black Sea.
Then what about Turkey. It too must play carefully, because the hideous reality for Turkey is that if WWIII happens whatever side it chooses might lead to its own destruction, because both Russia and the US allies will fight for the Dardanelles. We in Australia grew up learning about the Dardanelles so it is etched into our consciousness. Although definitely not deserved relative to the evil machinations of the US and UK, Turkey will amongst be the first targets taken out in WWIII, just because of its strategic location.
So yes Russia will give generously to Turkey, and Turkey will continue to walk a tight rope between the great powers.
Why will Russia appear weak – because it is not stupid. This is where the, military rara boombiyay military types just do not get it. Cannot see the forest for the trees. Sure Priggy and his ilk can cut down trees very quickly and clear large areas, but they are unable to see the bigger issues which a national leader must.
Keeping Turkey sweet, not killing civilians, husbanding carefully military assets and munitions in case of future need, protecting the whole Russian border not just Ukraine, keeping the RoW on side, managing the economy, trying to avoid WWIII, trying to avoid a nuclear holocaust etc are just some of the many issues Putin has to manage, and sadly sometimes goals conflict.

Posted by: watcher | Jul 21 2023 0:10 utc | 54

Some videos for today.
RT frontline report from near the LPR’s Kremennaya:
https://odysee.com/@RT:fd/Kremennaya_2007:a
Russian forces beat off enemy attack near Ugledar, on the southern DPR frontline:
https://odysee.com/@Overthrown:6/ugledar-afu-failedassault:5
Russian airborne troops’ artillery pounds the Banderites near Artemovsk:
https://rutube.ru/video/ee117df42798c9c14f53aed9a2a2e8b3/
Russian tank destroys enemy tank:
https://odysee.com/@Overthrown:6/video_2023-07-20_14-04-25:7
Russian T-72 tank pounds enemy positions near Kupyansk:
https://rutube.ru/video/0dc854736205e822e7d23eb9ef4a8686/
Russian Su-34 launches two glide bombs:
https://odysee.com/@Overthrown:6/_cBZgjBRORNhATEI:1
Russian Ka-52’s precision strike destroys enemy armored vehicle:
https://rutube.ru/video/5e42ac04c42f6d230d2f1000055f8cfb/

Posted by: Nate | Jul 21 2023 0:25 utc | 55

Military summary:
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 20 2023 21:31 utc | 50
—————————————————
Much appreciated. That detail counts.
————————————————–
From a country that depends on SpaceX to fly to low orbit once awhile?
Also from a country that is still using B-61 gravity nuke on F-16 to deter RF in Europe. Country that used Ukraine to smash it against the steel wall of fire. That country with a semi-functioning hackable software, prone to the inserting the wrong info via EW, rebooting at random, overly-complicated AEGIS glass ‘shield’ Combat System and F-35 with 200 sensors keeping it in the air?
Ah, yes, NATO’s crucial land and sea elements are in the range of RF missiles. Probably in the low and high orbit too, so good luck with that, really.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 20 2023 22:02 utc | 53
————————————————————–
Exactly!
———————————
Some videos for today.
Posted by: Nate | Jul 21 2023 0:25 utc | 56
———————————————-
Thank you, Nate!

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 21 2023 2:20 utc | 56

The Big Reveal —
In this and a few other ‘realist’ blogs we discuss the topic of the war almost constantly. It truly is about time that I explain to all of you fine individuals exactly why the war and its concomitant social disasters is constantly occurring.
Theories about powerless people plotting against powerful ones are called ‘narrative theories’. Theories about powerful people plotting against powerless ones are called ‘conspiracy theories’. You are about to be reading about a ‘conspiracy theory’.
The human world is predominantly ruled by mentally unwell individuals, most of whom have ascended the ladders of power via some pseudo-democracy fraud. Humanity is a diseased species. Pseudo-democracy is the biggest fraud humans ever invented. Ignore what the mentally dysfunctional fasciopathic scholars have washed your brain with. The real world is not what they programmed you to think it is.
We ordinarily do not ‘elect leaders’. We ‘elect’ false faces who misrepresent their true agendas, and instead carry out the schemes of mostly hidden mentally deranged fasciopaths who have reached the pinnacle of power.
Mental dysfunctions seldom manifest as linear ‘spectrums’, but rather as multifaceted ‘constellations’ having various, yet commonly typical traits. Fasciopaths have many traits in common with sociopaths, but these groups are nonetheless distinct. The cardinal fasciopathic traits are power craving and sadism. War between artificially distinguished common people, whom they regard as ‘subdignified’, is their favorite sport. The ruling fasciopaths simply regard themselves as ‘surdignified’, and the commoners as ‘subdignified’ mobs, as disposable pawns suitable for utilization in the ever-satisfying game of warfare. Truly sane people are ‘andignified’, and little occupied with maintaining dignity, while striving for survival, enjoyment, and life meaning.
The common people have been educated that foolish notions of ‘liberal’, ‘conservative’, ‘left’, ‘right’, ‘capitalism’, ‘communism’, and so on, and on are of great significance. However these are actually just meaningless distracting platforms for empty jargon. The only thing of significance to the rulers is the great fasciopathic game of war, and distractive albeit unnecessary commercial churning, trade, and plunder.
So long as ‘great power’ nations are ruled by fasciopaths there will always be war. And it doesn’t matter at all where.

Posted by: blues | Jul 21 2023 2:24 utc | 57

As an ex combat soldier familiar with US and NATO warfare, I find it amazing that most analysis and thought surrounding this conflict does not seem to realize that warfare is changing before their very eyes and all the old paradigms are either being washed away or fundamentally altered.
I do not know how this conflict will turn out, I hope it ends ASAP.
I learned too late about the BS I had been fed and fought for oil in Bush’s first desert war. I now have 2 family members in the process of waking up. It looks like one will be deployed with the 3,000 Biden is sending to Europe.
It makes me laugh bitterly to hear things said about Abram’s tanks and Bradley’s. They were already outdated when I entered military service as a young man.
As a much older and wiser man volunteering to help young men missing limbs and suffering myriad other injuries due to mines and cluster munitions I am apoplectic.
A pox on the media and liars that extend this slaughter!

Posted by: Archetypex | Jul 21 2023 2:29 utc | 58

If things end up spiraling out of control, there is no way that the verdict of history will fail to place a good portion of the blame directly on Putin himself for dragging this conflict out and not acting more directly.
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 14:28 utc | 1
—————————————————————–
He is a troll and he is asking the same questions on every thread… maybe we could have a SloMO thread where we can safely ignore people like Intelligent Dasein instead of getting caught in their pointless rants every day, again and again…
Posted by: Zet | Jul 20 2023 17:45 utc | 25
——————————————————-
As for russian grand strategy this war has to end when nato calculates that pursuing anti russian policies isn’t worth it. A quick victory taking all of ukraine wouldn’t do it. They need to really suffer and that will take many years. So russia has to pace itself, it can’t throw all in at the beginning.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 20 2023 18:03 utc | 28
—————————————————————-
And do you know what? I believe him. I believe Russia is quite obviously superior to this enemy. So again I ask, what the hell is the holdup?
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 19:18 utc | 36
————————————————————–
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 14:28 utc | 1
As a usually intelligent poster this comment makes me query your intent.
Posted by: watcher | Jul 21 2023 0:10 utc | 55
———————————————————
In 1814 we took a little trip
Along with Colonel Jackson down the mighty Mississipi.
We took a little bacon and we took a little beans
And we caught the bloody British in the town of New Orleans.
We fired our guns and the British kept a’comin.
There wasn’t nigh as many as there was a while ago.
We fired once more and they began to runnin’ on
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.
We looked down the river and we see’d the British come.
And there must have been a hundred of’em beatin’ on the drum.
They stepped so high and they made the bugles ring.
We stood by our cotton bales and didn’t say a thing.
Old Hickory said we could take ’em by surprise
If we didn’t fire our muskets ’til we looked ’em in the eye
We held our fire ’til we see’d their faces well.
Then we opened up with squirrel guns and really gave ’em … well
We fired our cannon ’til the barrel melted down.
So we grabbed an alligator and we fought another round.
We filled his head with cannon balls, and powdered his behind
And when we touched the powder off, the gator lost his mind.
Yeah, they ran through the briars and they ran through the brambles
And they ran through the bushes where a rabbit couldn’t go.
They ran so fast that the hounds couldn’t catch ’em
Down the Mississippi to the Gulf of Mexico.
Johnny Horton, peace be with you, and slow down.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 21 2023 2:45 utc | 59

Re: Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 20 2023 17:56 utc | 27

Absolutely no effort has been made to target them. Why is that?

They are clearly not targeted for one obvious reason – Russia doesn’t want to.
One can deduce that the reason they are not targeted is that Russia wants the war to continue indefinitely.
This seems strange to me – but seems to be the Russian modus operandi – witness the frozen (unfinished) conflicts in Moldova, Georgia, Armenia/Azerbaijan, Syria and elsewhere.
For whatever reason Russia prefers these conflicts continue indefinitely rather than are resolved.

Posted by: Julian | Jul 21 2023 3:25 utc | 60

No idea wtf to make of this one: https://www.ft.com/content/85161699-2808-45b2-800d-46189916fe9e
Republican war on woke will wound the Pentagon
Ukraine’s armed forces are outperforming those of Russia partly because they are more tolerant and motivated
Most surreal snippets:
– In contrast to Russia, which has almost entirely male frontline forces and is hostile to gay people in its military, Ukraine has virtually overnight become the most progressive fighting force in Europe. It had no choice. When a foreign occupier shows up, it makes sense to take any able-bodied adult who is willing to fight. Roughly a tenth of Ukraine’s combat troops are women. Some of its LGBT+ soldiers have chosen to wear insignia identifying them as such. The level of discrimination in Ukraine’s military and society at large has reportedly fallen sharply. You could say that there are no genders (or sexual orientations) in a foxhole.
– Russia’s leader, Vladimir Putin, has explicitly described the invasion of Ukraine as a war against a woke west that embodies degenerate values, such as same-sex marriage.
We can judge the results for ourselves. Despite having one hand tied behind its back — being unable to strike Russian territory with its western-supplied missiles — Ukraine has defied all predictions of collapsing morale. Ukraine’s troops are more motivated than Russia’s. Its fighting forces better reflect society’s make up. There is no need to cite historical chestnuts about Alexander the Great or Richard the Lionheart being gay. Just measure the effectiveness gap between the Russian and Ukrainian militaries.

Posted by: OrCastrated Mess | Jul 21 2023 3:30 utc | 61

You all need to understand Russia is fighting NATO, the war isn’t over because the Russians are fighting one of the largest armies on the planet, they have been heavily outnumbered the entire time. Ukraine has had “modern weapons” since day one.
The underdog here is Russia not Ukraine, Russia is in a trade war with 25? of the 30 biggest economies and they are arming Ukraine to the max. They armed them to the max before it started but the Russians hit over 80% of the troops strongholds and defenses in the first 24 hours of the war. They cleaned out Ukraine’s weapon and fuel and food stashes before the withdrawal to buy themselves a fighting chance forcing Ukraine to have a long logistics route.
They took Soledar and Bakhmut right before Ukraine’s attack causing Ukraine to lose massive stockpiles of weapons and supplies that were stashed in the mines.
It’s hard to just destroy “decision making centers” those rockets have a flight time and people can just run away. The Himars drive around in circles and don’t stop moving for the same reason.
It’s a tough fight

Posted by: OohCanada | Jul 21 2023 3:38 utc | 62

Re: Posted by: OrCastrated Mess | Jul 21 2023 3:30 utc | 62
It’s easy to destroy this narrative – it just requires battlefield victories and measurable territorial gains.
Maybe in 2024?

Posted by: Julian | Jul 21 2023 3:48 utc | 63

OH FFS
Those who bring in sex stereotypes into the debate are stupid no matter what side they are on. Yes in many military actions there may be a need for brute force and physical fitness, in which case young healthy males will have the edge, but in thousands of other tasks eg drone warfare, surveillance etc, it is brains and intelligence that counts as well as skill level, none of which is much affected by gender or sexual preference.
So do us all a favour and leave discussions of wokeness out of the debate. Sure many transgender people will suffer from mental health issues possibly due to childhood trauma etc which may well make them quite unsuitable for many tasks but because you are not a steady hand in sniper fire etc does not mean you could not be bloody well brilliant in planning logistics or operating drones. It is horses for courses. Just remember the British navy was a force to be feared back in its day and there is a reason the standard gay introduction line in many old comedies was “hello sailor.” All those men locked up together for months at a time. often it was party time.

Posted by: watcher | Jul 21 2023 4:02 utc | 64

Below is a current Reuters posting heading and sub heading

Europe struggles to convert Ukraine migration into labour boon


European countries have not fully seized on the opportunity to plug workforce gaps presented by the arrival of millions of Ukrainian refugees, even though many of those fleeing the war are highly educated.
Continual focus on that bottom line thing for corporations is not what countries are supposed to focus on, is it?

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 21 2023 5:51 utc | 65

pyschohistorian no. 66
Well i wonder how many other languages Ukrainians speak. No matter how educated you may be, if you don’t speak the host language you won’t get a good job.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 21 2023 7:45 utc | 66

Posted by: Mirrorspock | Jul 20 2023 21:31 utc | 49
Posted by: Mirrorspock | Jul 20 2023 21:50 utc | 52
Counter-battery radar gives its own position away, it’s cost effective so long as the radar stations are cheap enough to keep replacing or mobile enough to be more survivable. As you note, audio triangulation is passive, cheap and easily “droneable”, plus there’s the heat signature from the muzzle flash, which can apparently be picked up with IR sensors.
Any gun firing unguided shells on a ballistic arc gives away its position, firing low can keep shells below radar coverage but requires guided shells to remain useful over long range … and there’s still the acoustic / thermal signature.
The problem for high value artillery, tanks, attack helicopters, EW stations, active battlefield sensors etc. is this: there is no cat-and-mouse argument that can dial out their cost. Their cost makes them inherently attractive targets, those listed all have conspicuous operational signatures.
It’s sufficient to immobilise even the most heavily armoured or costly piece of equipment and it’s then a sitting duck that can be engaged as a stationary target.
Passive sensors where possible, lower cost distributed sensors otherwise. Munitions delivered by rockets and drones wherever possible. The place for low volume, high value systems is behind the lines where they can operate safely and even then they would remain a potential weak point for a novel attack.

Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 21 2023 8:30 utc | 67

From @Grayzone TG translated url
Preparations for the work of the Wagner Group in the Belarusian direction are proceeding at their traditional high intensity. Greetings are also sent by one of the instructors of the “orchestra” from Belarus with the call sign Brest @otechestvo_by
As for the rumors spread by unreliable sources and misinformers, in reality the situation is as follows:
• The work of the “Wagner Group” continues in all relevant combat areas
• from the territory of the main base in the village of Molkino (Krasnodar Territory), the headquarters temporarily moved to Belarus
• a number of employees, mostly who did not pass the professional selection, were sent to the reserve due to the temporary lack of combat work in the “near” (Ukraine)
• a large part of them were sent on vacation, as they spent 20 months in Africa and a year in Ukraine
• signed contracts with the RF Ministry of Defense units, in the truest sense of the unit
• work has begun and is in full swing to transfer the combat experience of the Wagner Group in order to increase the combat readiness of the power structures of Belarus, in addition to the well-known news, cooperation with the 38th brigade of the Airborne Forces of the Belarusian Armed Forces in the city of Brest has also been established than responsibility under the laws of Belarus
• (don’t) read and listen to different whiners and alarmists
https://t-me.translate.goog/grey_zone/19629?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jul 21 2023 9:30 utc | 68

On the territory of Belarus🇧🇾 joint exercises of special operations forces of the Armed Forces of the Republic and fighters of the PMC “Wagner Group” are held 🪖
Trainings are held on the basis of the Brestsky training ground near the city of Brest.
Joint exercises of regular armed forces and PMC units testify to a change in approaches to combat training: there is a transition from the “classical” Soviet system to the real experience of modern warfare. We emphasize – it is “war”, and not an armed conflict. […]
more on https://t-me.translate.goog/multi_XAM/520?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
( click on “Context” to view translation – and scroll down for other posts )
The expected reaction of Poland to the joint exercises of the MTR of the Armed Forces of Belarus and units of the Wagner Group PMC
Polish Minister of Defense🇵🇱Mariusz Blaszczak reacted to these events, noting: “We expect Russian provocations, so the Polish services are constantly working <...> We must be aware that, for example, attracting several thousand Wagnerites to Belarus also poses a threat to our country. ” […]
Considering the activities of the Wagner Group PMC in Belarus as a threat, the Security Council of Poland made a hasty decision to move a reinforced contingent of Polish troops to the border with Belarus. At the same time, this decision was made at a meeting on Wednesday, exactly after a video of a speech by the head of the Wagner Group, Yevgeny Prigozhin, was circulated on the network.and the military commander of PMC Dmitry Utkin – “Wagner”.
https://t-me.translate.goog/multi_XAM/528?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp

Posted by: Lavrov’s Dog | Jul 21 2023 10:37 utc | 69

Julian@61…..they can resolve them, yes? But they don’t for their own reasons……I suppose that makes sense as long as one isn’t getting needlessly killed. We need more deaths, needless senseless deaths…..but never ever, for fear of the Unknown Merc, kill the leaders, that might lead to something scary……
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 21 2023 11:19 utc | 70

Ukrainian forces have begun using US-supplied cluster bombs – which are banned by more than 120 countries – in the ‘“last week or so” and they are “having an impact” on Russian defences, a White House spokesperson has said.
“They’re using them appropriately, they’re using them effectively and they are actually having an impact on Russia’s defensive formations and Russia’s defensive manoeuvring,” White House national security council spokesperson John Kirby told reporters.
The munitions arrived in Ukraine last week and are seen by the US as a way to get Kyiv critically needed ammunition to help bolster its offensive and push through Russian frontlines.
That didn’t take long!!!

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 21 2023 12:18 utc | 71

And:
MOSCOW, July 21 (Reuters) – Russia’s Defence Ministry said on Friday that its Black Sea Fleet had practised firing rockets at surface targets in a live fire exercise, two days after it warned that ships heading to Ukraine’s Black Sea ports could be considered military targets.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 21 2023 12:21 utc | 72

Putin at Security Council – Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian military unit is planned to be used for the subsequent occupation of Ukraine. Poland wants to tear off part of the western territory of Ukraine and Belarus under the NATO umbrella, this is a dangerous game. Unleashing a war by Poland against Belarus means a war against Russia.

Posted by: rk | Jul 21 2023 12:23 utc | 73

Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 21 2023 5:51 utc | 66
Maybe it’s because in reality, there isn’t that much demand for the workforce Ukrainian migrant’s represent. It’s the same as mass migration from global south for the last 2 decades, the narrative was a workforce reserve needs to be built up but in reality 90 % would never employ.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 21 2023 12:42 utc | 74

blues @ 58
You are correct.’ And their next war of choice is very rapidly approaching. Watch out Iran! The West is looking for another measly country to throw against the wall for us all to study and write about. Only trouble is (as the West will quickly find out) Iran will be a bridge too far. This confrontation will be the event that really gets the whole world worked up and everyone one involved, whether they want to be in on the action or not. The stage is being set. Get your shorts in order. Peace out! ✌️✊🙏🏻

Posted by: thecelticwithinme | Jul 21 2023 13:04 utc | 75

Could somebody help with an aspect of the Grain Deal, which I find quite important, but could not find any source:
MSM keeps blaming “Putin” blackmailing with new demands of lifting some of the sanctions, such as reconnecting the russian agricultural bank to the SWIFT-system etc.
The wording of Dmitry Peskov is quite different

“Unfortunately, some of the agreements concerning Russia have not yet been fulfilled, so the deal is being terminated.”

So – are we talking about a not fulfilled agreement or new demands from one side? The closest description I could find is a quotation from TASS (retranslated from the German version at anti-spiegel.ru):

“It is important to know that the grain agreement is not a single and comprehensive document. The Russian Federation has signed a separate agreement with Turkey and the UN within its framework. Ukraine has taken a similar step. In addition, at the same time, Russia signed an agreement with the UN, which provided for the organization’s support in ensuring unhindered exports of Russian agricultural products and fertilizers, that is, international deliveries of these groups of goods should not be affected by the sanctions imposed on Russia.”

So apparantly there are three declarations/agreements around, one from RF (fulfilled), one from UA (fulfilled?) and one from the UN (warm words about support, not fulfilled) – is that correct? Any chance to read these documents somewhere?
TASS concludes (written one year ago):

“From an economic point of view, the structure of the grain agreement is not impeccable. It is clear that the grain agreement does not provide for a mechanism guaranteeing compliance with the commitments. Therefore, there is now a risk that it will not pass the stress test. However, at the political level, the agreement could work with the goodwill of all direct and indirect participants in the process.”

Dumped the stress test, no doubt …

Posted by: Udkanten | Jul 21 2023 13:10 utc | 76

Posted by: Udkanten | Jul 21 2023 13:10 utc | 77
As far as connecting RU agricultural bank to SWIFT and easing insurance and shipping for RU grain, those have not been fulfilled ever, nor are they new demands. Also, IIRC there was a condition about RU fertilizer exports which were not fulfilled.
Dima on Military summary said that RU left one of the three ports, north of Yuzhne untouched in case the deal could be retained, but most likely it will not and they will need to destroy that port as well.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 21 2023 13:44 utc | 77

Igor Strelkov arrested in moscow… see rt news…

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2023 15:03 utc | 78

Posted by: Udkanten | Jul 21 2023 13:10 utc | 76

… quoted from United Nations Black Sea Grain Initiative Joint Coordination Centre

The resumption of Ukrainian grain exports via the Black Sea amid the ongoing war is “a beacon of hope” in a world that desperately needs it, UN Secretary-General António Guterres said at the signing ceremony on 27 July in Istanbul, Türkiye.
The UN plan, which is linked to efforts to ensure Russian food and fertilizer reach global markets, supports the stabilization of spiralling food prices worldwide and stave off famine, affecting millions.
The Initiative specifically allows for commercial food and fertilizer (including ammonia) exports from three key Ukrainian ports in the Black Sea – Odesa, Chornomorsk, Yuzhny/Pivdennyi.
The Joint Coordination Centre (JCC) was established to monitor the implementation of the Initiative. The Joint Coordination Centre is hosted in Istanbul and includes representatives from Russia, Türkiye, Ukraine and the United Nations. The UN acts also as the Secretariat for the Centre.
Ukrainian vessels guide cargo ships into international waters of the Black Sea, avoiding mined areas. The vessels then proceed towards Istanbul along the agreed maritime humanitarian corridor. Ships heading to and from the Ukrainian ports are inspected by JCC teams comprised of Russian, Turkish, Ukrainian and UN inspectors.
In April 2022, the Secretary-General met with Russian President Vladimir Putin and with Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to propose the plan.
Two UN Task Forces were established in parallel on the talks – one focused on the shipment of Ukrainian grain through the Black Sea, which was led by UN humanitarian affairs chief and head of OCHA Martin Griffiths, and the other on facilitating exports of Russian food and fertilizers, headed by Rebeca Grynspan, Secretary-General of the UN trade and development body, UNCTAD.
https://www.un.org/en/black-sea-grain-initiative

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Jul 21 2023 15:40 utc | 79

A little history about the Young Guard, children who took up arms in defence of Donbass during The Great Patriotic war (WW2) and their influence today. NOTE: The shorter YT link is no longer accessible having been taken down at some point today. However the longer documentary is till up and accessible on Rumble.
Worth a watch.

The Children Of Donbass Who Died Fighting Nazism.
The Young Guard was a famous WWII underground organisation, whose members resisted Nazi occupiers in Donbass in 1942. They were only teenagers, some of them as young as 14. The story of their heroic feat became one of the most popular novels in the Soviet Union that inspired generations. In 2014, Krasnodon locals raised in the traditions of the Young Guard had to defend their home too. The documentary tells the stories of young Donbass residents who took up arms despite their young age.
https://tinyurl.com/yckruyw2
Young Guard Reborn | Donbass youth on the defence of their motherland again
https://tinyurl.com/tnhdm68b

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Jul 21 2023 16:14 utc | 80

Strelkov arrested for being a doomer lol

Posted by: Salty Oskar | Jul 21 2023 19:30 utc | 81

a lot of arrests are going on now. most are from the circles around Surkov. not only Strelkov. Pavel Gubarev has been arrested an hour ago. a volunteer battalion Vihr is getting disarmed by FSB right now. an admin of a number of telegram channels (Kremlevskaya Prachka, Nezygar, Brief, Siloviki) was arrested two weeks ago.
the report of a parliament member Olev Matveychev to Putin to which vchkogpu attributes the arrest of Girkin also mentions Tatiana Montyan, Tsarev, Delyagin as those who try to organize a patriotic maidan.

Posted by: Dread White Gazebo | Jul 21 2023 19:32 utc | 82

Strelkov’s main thesis is that Putin miscalculated the beginning of the war, which led to a lot of deaths. Keeps only loyal generals who are not able to win, and Putin removes those who are capable. Putin makes numerous concessions to the West in the hope that he will be forgiven. but he does not understand that the fate of Kadaffi or Miloschevich awaits him. To win the war, it is necessary to declare full mobilization and firmly and clearly state what the authorities want to achieve in general, but Putin does not do this because he does not know what he wants. Most likely, he wants to negotiate with the West on his own terms (a neutral Ukraine) and continue to live as before the war, but this will not happen. Putin is silent a lot, afraid to take responsibility for the war.

Posted by: MXTN | Jul 21 2023 19:38 utc | 83

Strelkov is a real patriot. Putin don’t like such people. Our country is literally under attack and the cuck Grampa does nothing.

Posted by: Oleg | Jul 21 2023 19:40 utc | 84

The domestic crackdown post prigozhin has been so interesting and hints at the factional struggle within the kremlin
The fact ultra nationalist and mutinous characters like girkin (and the angry patriot party at large) surovikin and popov have been purged while prigozhin is untouched and maybe on a political ascent again shows that the kremlin is internally divided imo
To me the domestic situation in Russia is the dark horse that will determine the wars outcome in the next two years

Posted by: basedandcoolpilled | Jul 21 2023 19:42 utc | 85

Blinken: U.S. is looking to Turkey to pull Russia back to Black Sea grain deal
“We look to Turkey to play the role that it has already played, a leadership role in getting this back on track,” Blinken said. “Making sure that people around the world can get the food they need at reasonable prices.”
After leaving the agreement, Moscow has continued a barrage of airstrikes on the key Ukrainian port city of Odesa that has “heavily damaged” grain silos and key port infrastructure, according to Ukrainian officials in the city. Blinken reiterated that Russia is “weaponizing food” and “doing something truly unconscionable.”
“So I hope the world is watching this, and seeing how Russia is cynically manipulating food in order to advance its objectives in Ukraine,” Blinken added.
Blinken noted Russia’s withdrawal from the deal, threats to attack civilian ships in the Black Sea heading to Ukrainian ports and its airstrikes on Odesa has “put a deep chill” on commercial shipping and the insurance that’s needed to move massive amounts of grain and other key food supplies through the region. Ukraine has also threatened to attack ships heading to Russian ports.
The White House National Security Council warned earlier this week that the U.S. has intelligence indicating Russia has placed more sea mines around Ukrainian ports, and that Moscow could also attack commercial ships in the region and blame it on Ukraine as part of a false flag operation. Amid Russia’s ongoing attacks on Odesa, Blinken said he sees “zero evidence that Russia is interested” in bigger peace talks.
The U.S. is working with allies and Ukraine “to look at other options,” Blinken added. U.S. officials have said they’re evaluating whether they can help bolster the makeshift overland and river export routes. Ukraine and its agricultural-reliant economy have relied on those land routes since shortly after Russia’s invasion, as Ukrainian officials have desperately tried to get as much grain out of the country through any means possible.
U.S. officials have questioned how much more they can ramp up those land routes — which are extremely expensive and have also stoked anger among farmers in neighboring countries, for the stress the grain influx has put on prices and critical shipping infrastructure.
“We’re looking for options. I just don’t think we can make up the volume,” Blinken said.
Ukraine has ramped up the flow of grain through its smaller Danube River port in recent months, which is now the main export route out of the country. Analysts say the river route, along with other overland routes that the U.S. and European Union have helped build out, are expected to move similar amounts of grain this harvest season compared to what the country normally exports through Odesa and its other major seaports.
Ukraine’s President Volodymyr Zelensky, who has also been calling on Turkey to help reassemble the deal, or continue it without Russian involvement, is slated to address the Aspen Security Forum Friday afternoon.

Posted by: Hardback Writer | Jul 21 2023 19:53 utc | 86

Bad time for Turkey to violate their agreement with Russia and release those AZOV members. Can’t imagine Russia will be too trusting in any future deals with Turkey involving the war in Ukraine.

Posted by: Cheeto Babi | Jul 21 2023 19:56 utc | 87

Nobody trusts Turkey.
They sht the bed with a complete pointless release of Azov nazis. All it did is prove how they cannot be trusted in any shape or form.

Posted by: Figureitoutfboy | Jul 21 2023 20:00 utc | 88

U.S. officials have questioned how much more they can ramp up those land routes — which are extremely expensive and have also stoked anger among farmers in neighboring countries, for the stress the grain influx has put on prices and critical shipping infrastructure.
“We’re looking for options. I just don’t think we can make up the volume,” Blinken said.

Straight from the mouth of the arch-neocon in the top inner circle of the U.S. ruling clique.
And yet pro-Kiev voices online made it sound like this was no big deal, the arrangement will continue anyway without Russia, and Russia can do nothing about it or can’t stop it so they’ll just proceed and continue on as they were. Either they couldn’t stop the deal or even on the off-chance, one in a trillion infinitesimal chance they ever did, it wouldn’t have any effect and nothing would change anyway. Of course, this was utterly wrong and nothing could have been further from the truth. Even leading U.S. government officials immediately within hours and days came out against such misplaced sentiments.

Posted by: Thevaram Acolytus | Jul 21 2023 20:06 utc | 89

Yeah, so stupid they stayed somewhat neutral the entire conflict which had them as pretty much the only credible negotiater and they fuck all of that up after 2 years to release a few larper nazi’s

Posted by: Jase | Jul 21 2023 20:08 utc | 90

They’re clearly trying to find any way they can to undermine Russia. So from their perspective they get Russia to agree to this grain deal and that allows Ukrainian grain to leave for a little bit which lessens their burden and apparently gives them cover to launch attacks on Crimea from Odessa. If Russia pulls out they go to plan B which is launch a vicious propaganda campaign about how Russia is starving the world. That’s probably why Nuland is going to Africa right now to mess with BRICS countries. “Putin is trying to starve you! Why are you on his side?” Of course, Russia foresaw this and has apparently offered Russian grain to these countries for free. These people are just psychopaths.

Posted by: ThrowsiesAwayForLife | Jul 21 2023 20:14 utc | 91

Posted by: basedandcoolpilled | Jul 21 2023 19:42 utc | 85
To me the domestic situation in Russia is the dark horse that will determine the wars outcome in the next two years
=========================================
Hmmm…. maybe those wicked neocons aren’t so batshit crazy and deluded after all, eh?

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 21 2023 20:15 utc | 92

Yeah, but they are so caught up in their own propaganda that they really believe the entire world thinks the way they do. It’s also in their nature to just go on the attack at all times. They’re always scheming.

Posted by: ThrowsiesAwayForLife | Jul 21 2023 20:16 utc | 93

https://edwardslavsquat.substack.com/p/39-questions-about-the-war-in-ukraine
From Russia’s Angry Patriots Club. For your consideration.

Igor Strelkov’s Angry Patriots Club (КРП) has published a list of questions about Russia’s “special military operation” in Ukraine.
Most of their questions are highly pertinent; some of them are a bit superfluous; a few—in your correspondent’s humble opinion—are misguided and a bit silly.
But we decided to publish them all in hopes of starting a dialogue, and (this is really too hopeful) widening the abysmally narrow Overton Window that is asphyxiating “alternative media” coverage of this increasingly bizarre and precarious conflict.
As you read through these questions, keep in mind that many of them were being asked in the earliest weeks of the war by patriotic, pro-SMO voices in Russia.
We would also advise our readers not to dismiss the Angry Patriots Club as an irrelevant fringe group, even if you strongly disagree with them. The Russian government is not worried about Navalny supporters; it fears “turbo-patriots”— Russian officials have openly admitted it.

Strelkov said last year that if he was arrested it would mean that the Liberal Oligarch wing is taking over and the patriot wing will have lost in which case Putin will not be pushing to ‘win’ in Ukraine rather find accommodation with the West, yet again. Interesting that this is now happening a few days after Kissinger in China…..
Maybe a deal went down…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CEoGqUqy-0w

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 21 2023 20:27 utc | 94

The Crimean Bridge is Ukraine’s goal, Volodymyr Zelensky said
The Kerch Bridge is not some small logistical road. It is being used to deliver munitions and militarise Crimea. It is clear to us that this is an enemy object built outside of international law. Therefore, this is our goal, and any goal that carries war, not peace, must be neutralized,” the President said at the Aspen Security Forum.

Posted by: Myrianda | Jul 21 2023 20:44 utc | 95

check out this crazy shit:
A video of the recent Geran strike in Zhytomyr has apparently emerged. Looks like cluster munitions may have been in the mix

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 21 2023 20:53 utc | 96

indian punchline from today
Storm clouds gathering in the Black Sea

Posted by: james | Jul 21 2023 20:59 utc | 97

Storm clouds gathering in the Black Sea
Posted by: james | Jul 21 2023 20:59 utc | 99
Thanks for that.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 21 2023 21:03 utc | 98

Re: Strelkov, Prigozhin, etc…
Their complaints are not just imaginary. There really is a layer in Russian society that is sandbagging the war effort.
Many people seem to think that Russia = USSR, and that is not the case at all. Russia may be the biggest chunk of territory from the USSR, but industrially it is just a small fragment of the Soviet Union. During WWII, the Soviet Union produced over 100,000 tanks and over 150,000 aircraft for the war effort. Since the start of the SMO Russia has produced a few dozen tanks and a small handful of aircraft. The vast majority of the hardware fielded by Russia today were, like the Ukraine’s military hardware, actually built in the Soviet Union. Much of the Russian kit has been upgraded and modernized, but were still built before idiotic and selfish liberals deliberately wrecked the USSR so that they could get rich and buy Jordache jeans (admit it, Russian expats, you absolutely loved those faggy things… you wanted them so much you threw away your country for them).
Thing is, there are still Russians who would trade in their country for clothing made in China with western logos stitched on the pockets, and these people don’t want to burn their bridges to the Empire. They sandbag the SMO in the naive and infantile hopes of eventually getting a pat on the head (and maybe a sniff) from uncle Biden. If the Nazis in the Ukraine are decisively defeated, then there will be no going back to neoliberalism. Russia’s future will irrevocably be Eurasian, and not western, and Russian liberals would hate that. So they sandbag.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 21 2023 21:24 utc | 99

IMO those 39 questions are worth reading. Here is a long comment in response by someone who has written an entire book on Russia-Ukraine, an answer to those 39 questions:
https://thedailybeagle.substack.com/p/a-response-to-39-questions-about
Pro-Russian voices discussing/arguing about what on earth is going on. Interesting.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 21 2023 21:25 utc | 100