Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
The current open thread for other issues here.
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July 16, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-169
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict. The current open thread for other issues here. Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Comments
Brian Berletic’s latest is out at The New Atlas with a sane perspective on the bridge attack: Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 17 2023 11:23 utc | 201 Mushroom @199: Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 17 2023 11:24 utc | 202 Exactly how in technical means would USA return to Afghanistan? Just flying in? What would be the explanation? Some explanation would certainly be needed. UK Defence Secretary (Minister for War) Ben Wallace says he will step down as defence secretary at the next cabinet reshuffle after four years in the job. Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 17 2023 11:27 utc | 204 Ishchenko, a former member of the Ukrainian government (under Pres. Kuchma) : Posted by: osi | Jul 17 2023 11:27 utc | 205 Way I see it. Ben Wallace told Zaluzhny not to do anything stupid as Ukraine is losing and the West is,struggling to resupply Ukraine with equipment and weapons. Avoid even more escalation at all costs during this time. Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 17 2023 11:37 utc | 206 William Gruff | Jul 17 2023 11:24 utc | 202 Posted by: Mushroom | Jul 17 2023 11:37 utc | 207 Posted by: osi | Jul 17 2023 11:27 utc | 205 Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 17 2023 11:38 utc | 208 Posted by: osi | Jul 17 2023 11:27 utc | 205 Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 17 2023 11:49 utc | 209 I don’t know but looking at those photos it doesn’t look like much damage was done to the bridge. One modular span down, which can be easily replaced in a few days, from the stock of spares which we discovered existed the last time. Posted by: Laguerre | Jul 17 2023 11:52 utc | 210 Comments appreciated. Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 17 2023 11:53 utc | 211 Zaluzhny goes on this massive rant over the weekend about Crimea and nobody tells Ukraine what they can and can’t do. Attack the bridge. Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 17 2023 11:57 utc | 212 Russia’s response is to “suspend” the grain deal? How about stomping om the little cockroach who shot the bridge? Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 17 2023 11:59 utc | 213 The Nazi alliance (and I now count Turkey as part of that) will still attempt to maintain the grain corridor without Moscow’s consent. Posted by: Night Tripper | Jul 17 2023 12:01 utc | 214 Slavyangrad shows pictures of young boys who died fighting for Ukraine. This is their future being buried. People commonly feel ‘to the last Ukrainian’ is just feeble hyperbole but Russia must find a way to overcome this Vietnam war situation – since no one will oppose Zelensky. Posted by: Eighthman | Jul 17 2023 12:13 utc | 215 Wallace resigns and an even bigger psychopath Tobias Ellwood gets the job. Posted by: laguerrre | Jul 17 2023 12:20 utc | 216 Posted by: osi | Jul 17 2023 11:27 utc | 205 Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 17 2023 12:26 utc | 217 It would make sense to shoot those US/UK recon aircraft down. They were within 30km of Crimean coast and within 50km from the bridge. Not only territorial area but they are tied to the attack. Posted by: unimperator | Jul 17 2023 12:28 utc | 218 Posted by: osi | Jul 17 2023 11:27 utc | 205 Posted by: airstrip1 | Jul 17 2023 12:32 utc | 219 The attack on the Crimean bridge does not serve a military purpose, because Russian troops in Kherson and Zaporozhye oblasts are supplied via the land bridge (the DNR). Posted by: S | Jul 17 2023 12:34 utc | 220 Posted by: laguerrre | Jul 17 2023 12:20 utc | 216 Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 17 2023 12:38 utc | 221 The attack on the Crimean bridge does not serve a military purpose, because Russian troops in Kherson and Zaporozhye oblasts are supplied via the land bridge (the DNR). Posted by: Marvin | Jul 17 2023 12:52 utc | 222
Not only that, but also they failed to take out the rail part of the bridge, so train traffic full of weapons can continue to flow to Crimea. Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 17 2023 12:53 utc | 223 Posted by: osi | Jul 17 2023 11:27 utc | 205 Posted by: Greg Ulster | Jul 17 2023 13:03 utc | 225 Alastair Crooke today: Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 17 2023 13:07 utc | 226 Ghost of Zanon | Jul 17 2023 12:53 utc | 223 Posted by: Concerned Citizen | Jul 17 2023 13:13 utc | 227 A request of help from fellow barflies: Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 17 2023 13:13 utc | 228 Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 17 2023 12:26 utc | 217 Posted by: Tim | Jul 17 2023 13:16 utc | 229 Kerch Bridge damage
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jul 17 2023 13:21 utc | 230 Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 17 2023 12:53 utc | 223 Posted by: Revelo | Jul 17 2023 13:22 utc | 231 Well we knew the US/UK were running spy planes back and forth south of Crimea, not rocket science to expect an attack on the bridge. While Russia can play whack a mole all over the Ukraine, they seem a bit ham strung when it comes to dealing with the main supporters of the Ukraine war effort. Anyone day dreaming about the day the Ukraine collapses….. dreams are fun, free too. Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 17 2023 13:23 utc | 232 From Oleg Tsarev’s Telegram channel:
Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jul 17 2023 13:31 utc | 233 Speaking of SloJokeaMo’s, this conflict will end similar to the Pakistani/India border dispute, or perhaps the North/South Korean border, heavily mined no man’s land. Lavrov said in order to be secure Russia would need to push NATO long range weapons back even further…..of course he didn’t explain how they would do that nor is there any physical evidence on the ground of such happening…..going to look for my rose coloured glass, if it looks better through them, I’ll let ya’ll know. Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 17 2023 13:34 utc | 234 Speaking of SloJokeaMo’s, Aleks at Black Mountain Analysis now says enough is enough, the Go-Slow-SMO strategy has worn out whatever benefits it ever had, and Russia needs to finish the theater war this year. All the Yes-men better head over there and call him a “troll” as well. Posted by: Flying Dutchman | Jul 17 2023 13:54 utc | 235 It’s almost like it’s synchronized groupthink, which does explain NATO performance in this war. The slow bleed is roasting the Western economies. The terrorist strikes are an attempt to rile up Russian popular opinion because Maerica NEEDS Russia to hurry up and finish Ukraine off. Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jul 17 2023 14:09 utc | 236 The grain deal is dead according to confirmation by Peskov. As you’d expect, the empire lackey’s are immediately shedding crocodile tears for “developing Global South countries”, disregard the fact that they didn’t get much as EU was hoarding most grain. Posted by: unimperator | Jul 17 2023 14:41 utc | 237 The West is propping up the Ukrainian kleptocracy to keep up appearances, but it is a hole in the pocket. Sure old weaponry to be retired are being upsold instead of written off, however that does not compensate for the gaping, suppurating void inhaling The West’s prosperity. A show government with its parasitic oligarchs, loss of cheap energy for its industry, and cannibalism of each other’s economies is quadrupling the costs of typical proxy war maintenance. Logistics says he who holds the hot potato longest gets burned the worst. 😉 Russia’s plan is, “Easy does it,” and it’s been bearing fruit in Western government instability & population misery. Posted by: titmouse | Jul 17 2023 14:44 utc | 238 I found the link I was looking for, on direct funding of Ukrainian sovereign debt from DC. To give fair credit, it was from @psychohistorian: Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 17 2023 14:46 utc | 239
They (US) will try to drive their cargo ships into Odessa port anyway. We also know from past occurrences that they shipped fuel and weapons into Odessa the same corridors as the grain deal. Posted by: unimperator | Jul 17 2023 14:48 utc | 240 Posted by: unimperator | Jul 17 2023 14:48 utc | 240 Posted by: unimperator | Jul 17 2023 14:53 utc | 241 Bemildred no. 226 Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 17 2023 14:56 utc | 242
Well Said Posted by: Exile | Jul 17 2023 15:02 utc | 243 Not the most realistic plan:
https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/73558 Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 17 2023 15:13 utc | 244 Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 17 2023 14:56 utc | 242 Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 17 2023 15:19 utc | 245 Membrum Virile | Jul 17 2023 9:20 utc | 180 Posted by: Cynic | Jul 17 2023 15:25 utc | 246 The elimination/severe injury of someone important in Ukraine is confirmed. A flying ambulance of the specialised airline ASL FLY MED flew to Rzeszów today and spent an hour there. Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 17 2023 15:28 utc | 247 Re: “ I can’t believe that little shit, Zelensky, is still walking around and breathing.” Posted by: Trubind1 | Jul 17 2023 15:29 utc | 248 Re the grain deal /bridge revenge. Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 17 2023 15:35 utc | 249 Lev Davidovich | Jul 17 2023 10:07 utc | 187 Posted by: Cynic | Jul 17 2023 15:37 utc | 250 tim@229 Posted by: paddy | Jul 17 2023 15:39 utc | 251 Most likely the grain deal is a rather pointless exercise at this time. Just the 22 vs 21 harvest was down by 40%, 23 will be even worse. The best farmland in Ukraine isn’t in Ukraine anymore, much of what’s left is an active war zone and much of what’s left after that will be problematic because it was irrigated by the destroyed reservoir. Recall that the western portion of Ukraine is not prime agricultural land, mostly growing lower grade feed grains (especially corn). This year Ukrainians planted less and is having difficulty with inputs, which are even more important in those poorer lands of the west than in the prime agricultural areas of the south and southeast. Ukraine likely needs all that it manages to grow this year to get through 2024, because 2024 will probably be worse for the agricultural sector than 2023. Zelensky will export until its gone because Kiev is bankrupt and dependent on either western aid or raising all the prices, taxes and tariffs on the population. A population which simply can’t afford the higher costs. Posted by: Lex | Jul 17 2023 15:41 utc | 252 Posted by: Ed | Jul 16 2023 15:54 utc | 27 Posted by: farm ecologist | Jul 17 2023 15:42 utc | 253 It is time to face the fact the the Turks have got what they can from Russia, this withdrawal marks the end of any ‘friendly’ relations that never actually occured in reality. Posted by: Night Tripper | Jul 17 2023 15:44 utc | 254 https://vk.com/wall701885602_82320
Posted by: shаdοwbanned | Jul 17 2023 15:45 utc | 255 In response to Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 17 2023 15:46 utc | 256 -> Doctor Eleven | Jul 17 2023 14:09 utc | 236 Posted by: whirlX | Jul 17 2023 15:47 utc | 257 Posted by: Lex | Jul 17 2023 15:41 utc | 252 Posted by: unimperator | Jul 17 2023 15:54 utc | 258 Whatever happened to Russia’s much vaunted acoustic counter artillery spotter, seems like Ukrainian arty is still a factor in this conflict, particularly with the complaints of a lack of counter battery work by Russian commanders. Posted by: madmarc | Jul 17 2023 15:55 utc | 259 But seriously, looking at the “West” , even if Zelensky was “gone”… he‘d just he replaced with some other annoying little shit. Posted by: rk | Jul 17 2023 15:56 utc | 260 Posted by: Night Tripper | Jul 17 2023 15:44 utc | 254 Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 17 2023 15:56 utc | 261 Well, looking at today’s ‘clobber list’ it seems that a bit of minor vandalism to a bridge has had no military impact whatsoever: https://eng.mil.ru/en/special_operation/news/more.htm?id=12473200@egNews
The gleefully gloating trolls need to work out if Ukraine is going to run out of missiles before Russia runs out of concrete and steel… Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 17 2023 15:57 utc | 262 @ Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 17 2023 13:07 utc | 226 Posted by: jared | Jul 17 2023 15:57 utc | 263 William Gruff | Jul 17 2023 11:24 utc | 202 Posted by: Cynic | Jul 17 2023 15:59 utc | 264 All this does is shut the mouths of those who try and reason with Putin not to go all in and completely destroy Ukraine. But maybe this is what is the desired outcome by the West? Maybe Russia should protected the black sea as the US protects the gulf of Mexico? Not sure of the talks going on behind closed doors… Posted by: Dferg | Jul 17 2023 15:59 utc | 265 Posted by: Cynic | Jul 17 2023 15:25 utc | 246 Posted by: Membrum Virile | Jul 17 2023 15:59 utc | 266 257 Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Jul 17 2023 16:00 utc | 267
I don’t think so. Erdogan’s economy is in shambles due to inflation and costs from the earth quakes. According to Alex Mercouris, the economic situation is so dire that Turkey had no choice but make some leeway to the Waste to get an IMF loan, which requires dealing with Biden. Posted by: unimperator | Jul 17 2023 16:01 utc | 268 Arch Bungle | Jul 17 2023 11:38 utc | 208 Posted by: Cynic | Jul 17 2023 16:09 utc | 269
Posted by: Night Tripper | Jul 17 2023 15:44 utc | 254 Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 17 2023 16:11 utc | 270 @ Chaka Khagan | Jul 17 2023 16:00 utc | 267 Posted by: whirlX | Jul 17 2023 16:11 utc | 271 Posted by: robjira | Jul 17 2023 0:15 utc | 108 Posted by: Milites | Jul 17 2023 16:14 utc | 272 I believe a military conflict between Russia and Turkey is now brewing. Posted by: Turk 152 | Jul 17 2023 16:17 utc | 273 @ Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 17 2023 13:07 utc | 226 Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 17 2023 16:17 utc | 274 indian punchline from today… Posted by: james | Jul 17 2023 16:21 utc | 275 Given the Chonhar bridge attack led to the Kramatorsk strike, less than a week later, I wonder what retaliation will be visited for this attack on the Kerch bridge? Posted by: Milites | Jul 17 2023 16:26 utc | 276 Escobar posted a portion of Dugin’s reaction to the Crimea attack at his Telegram: Posted by: Cynic | Jul 17 2023 16:09 utc | 269 Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 17 2023 16:39 utc | 278
Posted by: james | Jul 17 2023 16:21 utc | 275 Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 17 2023 16:44 utc | 279 Informative opinion in the Global Times By Brian Berletic Posted by: whirlX | Jul 17 2023 16:45 utc | 280 275 – The UK has only 40 main battle tanks? No wonder it is not rushing to supply them to Kiev… Posted by: Waldorf | Jul 17 2023 16:53 utc | 281 Headline from the Telegraph (prospective successor to The Onion) today: Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 17 2023 16:55 utc | 282
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 17 2023 16:55 utc | 282 Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 17 2023 17:10 utc | 283 Bemildred no. 245 Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 17 2023 17:14 utc | 284 The Telegraph has so thoroughly ruined it’s reputation over Ukraine. Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 17 2023 17:46 utc | 285 This latest Kerch bridge sabotage attempt shows that the underwater drones Ukraine has access to are not designed for targeting large structures like bridges and are not particularly effective at doing so. This particular drone had to be loaded with extra explosives to do any significant damage at all. Posted by: nazcalito | Jul 17 2023 18:00 utc | 286 Posted by: Tim | Jul 17 2023 13:16 utc | 229 Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 17 2023 18:26 utc | 287 Inki 149 “It’s all so terribly sad and dumb. All people really want is a roof over their heads, food, health care and a bit of culture but they get whacked down again and again.” Posted by: Patrick Constantine | Jul 17 2023 18:55 utc | 288 @shadowbanned #255 Posted by: S | Jul 17 2023 19:08 utc | 289 Regarding Russia going slow, if they are supposed to have escalation dominance, they can well escalate slow if they so choose. The country should not be destroyed. Nor its people. Time is not money. Time is life. Posted by: Stephane | Jul 17 2023 20:30 utc | 290 Doctor Eleven | Jul 17 2023 14:09 utc | 236 Posted by: donten | Jul 17 2023 21:14 utc | 291 I’m constantly trying to understand MH370 and yesterday not realising it was the anniversary of MH17 I thought was it the US as a warning to Malaysia to say nothing. They had the black boxes but as I understand it have not said a word. This may already have been discussed endlessly apologies if it has. That’s a rather radical suggestion coming from a conservative. Postponing elections IMO is the wrong thing to do. Kerch bridge attack was done with British plot and with British help Posted by: Sam | Jul 18 2023 21:08 utc | 295 Meant that Russia must kill all MI16 employees at London HQ. Posted by: Sam | Jul 18 2023 21:10 utc | 296 |
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