Arioch no. 2
MSM print anything. Here’s the latest from sly news:
“Where is Yevgeny Prigozhin? It’s a question that many of us are wondering about and largely remains unanswered.”
“But one former US military leader has weighed in on the conversation and says he doesn’t think the Wagner boss is alive and if he is – he could be in prison.”
What do they know? It’s all speculation at this time.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 13 2023 14:05 utc | 4

@ leaf | Jul 13 2023 13:52 utc | 1
people have been posting this link for the past few days here at moa.. it doesn’t hurt to post it again… it is worth watching.. i recommend it to others… let us know when part 2 comes out.. thanks…

Posted by: james | Jul 13 2023 14:09 utc | 6

Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 13 2023 13:28 utc | 309
“…daily grinding the lower social strata of Ukrainian society, those who were not lucky enough to be in the upper cabins of the Titanic.”
Agree with your post but have to nitpick on this one. The First Class cabins turned out the most unlucky! They contained a choice selection of J.P. Morgan’s adversaries in the question of whether or not to install a Federal Reserve bank. Most adversaries sank with the Titanic (or was it the Olympic?), and the Fed was duly created the following year.

Posted by: Leser | Jul 13 2023 14:12 utc | 8

“‘General Popov’ That story is now on the BBC front page of its website
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 13 2023 12:43 utc | 307”
“Popov” is a traditional name for fictional characters in Russia. It’s kind of a standing joke.

Posted by: Catilina | Jul 13 2023 14:26 utc | 10

@2 Arioch = re: General Popov.
Is this reported in Russian media?
I’m guessing yes.
Either the whole Prigozhin episode was widely reported in Russia or I’m pretty sure the western media would have mentioned that (they didn’t mention their sources either).
Found: https://www-kommersant-ru.translate.goog/doc/6097951?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US&_x_tr_pto=wapp
And some hours before western media.
I only checked one russian media source

Posted by: Michael Droy | Jul 13 2023 14:36 utc | 12

What news – if any – is there about Surovikin?

Posted by: Sentient | Jul 13 2023 14:48 utc | 14

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jul 13 2023 14:07 utc | 5
Maybe 1 week ago they said AFU left Piyatikahtki and replaced the 128 brigade with 117 and 118 brigade and a “jaeger” brigade which accumulated north of the village. Then they resumed their attack attempts originating from that village, but apparently they were stopped.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 13 2023 15:11 utc | 16

So the whole Popov thing is just Russia trolling the west again. Love it!! Making a laughing stock out of the MSM. Not that they really needed any help in that regard.

Posted by: Watzov | Jul 13 2023 15:13 utc | 18

There have been a number of videos purportedly from Pyatikhatki shown lately of mostly unsupported infantry attacks and the Russian tactic of falling back from initial positions to a second prepared position while leaving the initial positioned mined and zeroed in for immediate artillery scouring. This is causing horrendous Ukrainian casulaties, which are also often abandoned without evacuation in those forward positions. Ukraine seems to spend more effort on retrieving damaged Western hardware than on its own soldiers.
Infantry in modern high intensity warfare is already extremely vulnerable due to advances in optics and target recognition without foolish leadership making futile, pointless assaults. How long before Ukraine morale collapses completely under such tactical genius?

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jul 13 2023 15:25 utc | 20

⚡️Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation
(13 July 2023)
Part I
◽️The Russian Armed Forces launched a long-range sea-based high-precision weapons strike against AFU ammunition depots. The goal of the attack has been reached. All the assigned targets have been neutralised.
◽️The AFU continued to attempt offensive actions in Donetsk, Krasny Liman and South Donetsk directions.
◽️In Donetsk direction, as a result of courageous actions by the units of the Yug Group of Forces, 16 enemy attacks have been successfully repelled close to Vesyoloye, Krasnogorovka, Severnoye, Novomikhailovka and Maryinka (Donetsk People’s Republic).
◽️The actions of 1 Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group have been suppressed near Kurdyumovka (Donetsk People’s Republic).
◽️The enemy losses were up to 480 Ukrainian servicemen, 6 pickup trucks, 3 Polish-manufactured Krab self-propelled artillery systems, as well as Msta-B and D-30 howitzers.
◽️In addition, 1 AN/TPQ-50 counter-battery radar station has been destroyed close to Predtechino (Donetsk People’s Republic).
◽️In Krasny Liman direction, as a result of the attacks launched by the units of the Tsentr Group of Forces, aviation and artillery, the 63rd, 66th and 67th mechanised brigades of the AFU close to Torskoye (Donetsk People’s Republic), Karmazinovka and Kuzmino (Lugansk People’s Republic).
◽️In addition, 3 enemy attacks have been repelled close to Chervonaya Dibrova and Kremennaya (Lugansk People’s Republic).
◽️The enemy losses were up to 90 Ukrainian servicemen, 4 armoured fighting vehicles, 4 pickup trucks, 1 Akatsiya self-propelled artillery system, and 1 D-30 howitzer.
◽️In South Donetsk direction, artillery and heavy flamethrower systems of the Vostok Group of Forces have foiled the attempts by the enemy to launch two attacks close to Rovnopol and Novodonetskoye (Donetsk People’s Republic).
◽️In Zaporozhye direction, the coordinated actions of Russian troops defeated a manpower and hardware concentration area of the AFU 128th Mountain Assault Brigade near Pyatikhatki (Zaporozhye region), and also repelled an attack by the enemy units of the 65th Mechanised Brigade near Rabotino (Zaporozhye region).
◽️The enemy losses were over 180 Ukrainian servicemen, 1 tank, 5 armoured fighting vehicles, 2 motor vehicles, 1 U.K-manufactured AS90 Braveheart self-propelled artillery system, 2 Msta-B howitzers, 3 D-20 guns, 1 Gvozdika self-propelled artillery system, and 1 Grad MLRS.
⚡️Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation
(13 July 2023)
Part II
◽️In Kupyansk direction, the attacks, launched by Operational-Tactical and Army Aviation, as well as artillery of the Zapad Group of Forces, have resulted in the neutralisation of the enemy manpower and hardware close to Krasnoye Pervoye, Liman, Pervy (Kharkov region), and Novosylovskoye (Lugansk People’s Republic).
◽️The enemy losses were up to 30 Ukrainian servicemen, 2 armoured personnel carriers, 2 motor vehicles, 1 D-20 howitzer, and 2 Gvozdika self-propelled artillery systems.
◽️In Kherson direction, the enemy losses were up to 70 Ukrainian servicemen, 1 armoured fighting vehicle, 3 motor vehicles, as well as 2 self-propelled artillery systems: Akatsiya and Gvozdika.
◽️Operational-Tactical and Army aviation, Missile Troops and Artillery of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation have neutralised 73 AFU artillery units at their firing positions, manpower and hardware in 96 areas.
◽️Ammunition depots of the AFU 28th Mechanised Brigade and the 125th Territorial Defence Brigade have been destroyed close to Kurdyumovka and Yampol (Donetsk People’s Republic).
◽️Air defence facilities have shot down 11 projectiles launched by HIMARS MLRS.
◽️In addition, 14 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles have been destroyed close to Lyubimovka, Urozhaynoye (Zaporozhye region), Petrovskoye, Yakovlevka, Soledar, Zaitsevo (Donetsk People’s Republic), Verkhnekamenka, Chevonopopovka and Kremennaya (Lugansk People’s Republic).
📊In total, 455 airplanes, 242 helicopters, 4,995 unmanned aerial vehicles, 426 air defence missile systems, 10,687 tanks and other armoured fighting vehicles, 1,138 fighting vehicles equipped with MLRS, 5,440 field artillery cannons and mortars, as well as 11,646 special military motor vehicles have been destroyed during the special military operation.
🔹 Russian Defence Ministry (https://t.me/mod_russia_en)

Posted by: rumod report | Jul 13 2023 15:43 utc | 22

Slavyangrad:

“Rating” poll conducted. It turned out that in Ukraine, 32% believe that Kiev needs six months or a year to win, 30% – more than a year, and 17% believe that several months or less are needed to achieve it. Only 1% of Ukrainian citizens do not believe in the victory of Ukraine. If we proceed from what is in the minds of most of my acquaintances in Ukraine, then the results of the survey as a whole reflect psychic reality. They really believe in their inevitable victory.

No source is given

Posted by: 2+2=5 | Jul 13 2023 16:04 utc | 24

@ Figleaf23 | Jul 13 2023 15:54 utc | 23
Right, but there is an article praising him in a Red Star. So he exists and he seems competent. Truth is that some politician used that unofficial communication within the Army, to scream aloud how things are not right. Also Popov’s deputy was Storm-Shadowed few days ago, so there are changes.
Apparently, RF Military is trying not to get involved with the politics.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 13 2023 16:16 utc | 26

Perimetr @ 25
They’ve been working on it since the end of WW2 if not during the war, it must be pretty advanced by now. The Japanese were and their scientists were incorporated into US military research just like the Nazi scientists.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 13 2023 16:31 utc | 28

From RT today:
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said:
The plans to supply F-16s to Kiev is yet another example of an escalatory move by the West and in itself is “an extremely dangerous development,” he stated.
“We have informed the nuclear powers – the US, UK and France – that Russia can’t ignore the ability of these aircraft to carry nuclear weapons,” the foreign minister continued.
“No assurances [by the West] will help here,” he warned. In the midst of fighting, the Russian military isn’t going to investigate whether any specific jet is equipped to deliver nuclear weapons or not, he added.
“The very fact of the appearance of such systems within the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be considered by us as a threat from the West in the nuclear domain,” Lavrov said.
I hope that Russia confines itself to a no-fly zone and intensive bombing of all 404 airfields.

Posted by: Jams O’Donnell | Jul 13 2023 16:47 utc | 30

Posted by: 2+2=5 | Jul 13 2023 16:04 utc | 24
>”Rating” poll conducted. It turned out that in Ukraine, 32% believe that Kiev needs six months or a year to win, 30% – more than a year, and 17% believe that several months or less are needed to achieve it. Only 1% of Ukrainian citizens do not believe in the victory of Ukraine. If we proceed from what is in the minds of most of my acquaintances in Ukraine, then the results of the survey as a whole reflect psychic reality. They really believe in their inevitable victory.
I don’t discuss victory/defeat with my Ukrainian acquaintances, all of who are young women who’ve left for western Europe. But from forums I visit, yes, many young Ukrainians (older Ukrainians are typically not internet savvy) do believe in ultimate victory, and have since the beginning of the war. This is why Russia needs to go slow and why defeat has to be prolonged and painful. Quick defeat (=quick victory by Russia), and especially Ukrainian surrender, would result in feelings of betrayal: “We were just about to turn the tide, and then our leaders betrayed us.” To truly win hearts and minds of average younger Ukrainians, they must get past the denial, anger and bargaining phases and enter the depression phase of the mourning process. That is still 6 months to 2 years in the future.

Posted by: Revelo | Jul 13 2023 17:02 utc | 32

Why doesn’t the Russian army go on the offensive and actually capture some territory.
Above Posted by: Julian | Jul 13 2023 15:31 utc | 21
Likely because it understands the overall situation infinitely better than you do. Spend more time reading here than repeating such questions and you might learn something.

Posted by: StirThePot | Jul 13 2023 17:07 utc | 34

“..There is no chance to reeducate them, Russia failed re-educating them for last 300 years, and Poland failed it a hundred or two years before that. It just does not work. ..” Arioch@33
This smacks of the same sort of racism that the Ukrainian fascists employ. Just in reverse.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 13 2023 17:27 utc | 36

@ Arioch | Jul 13 2023 17:02 utc | 33
Those lands are not some tiles in “strategy” videogame, they are… troubles. The problem is, how to manage those spaces so the troubles be minimized.
Could be easier than that. It is not a war against civilians, for RF, and there was no neighbor-on-neighbor civilian ethnic cleansing in those areas, as in Balkan wars. There, things were quenched in a trainload of money, a hate put aside (for a moment).
RF can handle that though its allies, doing reconstruction and attracting people of all kind and sorts, as well as a slow return of refugees. It is a good strategy, but for the defined border with the West, long time assurance is needed for the BRICS crowd to jump in the development. So nobody knows where that border is, except those who do – RF knows, but it is not telling.
Make America Argue with Everyone, and for a long time. That is basically an outcome, unless the USA backs down. Very difficult to sustain and bad for everyone’s business.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 13 2023 17:54 utc | 38

@ bevin | Jul 13 2023 17:27 utc | 36
This smacks of the same sort of racism that the Ukrainian fascists employ. Just in reverse.
Agree, adding, that it gives a bit of a wrong picture, if one is looking down at anyone, including enemies. It is just how Lavrov’s ministry is not behaving and I think that it might be liked by many Russians.
“Reeducating” in Soviet union was handled by the local people, guided by Communist Party. It wasn’t Russians being occupiers of all the offices and ministries behind the Iron Curtain, telling their minions to arrest, censor and torture local populace. Locals were controlling locals. Deliberately avoiding a Nazi-style occupation was a doctrine for a long time.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 13 2023 18:13 utc | 40

@Arioch #2:

Early warning. Liberoids media in Russia invented some “General Popov”…
…
The name is pretty mundane, so probably there are many with the name in RuArmy. But at very least there was NO such a commander of the 58th army yet.

What utter and complete bullshit!
General Major Ivan Popov is real and was, until recently, the commander of the 58th Army. Here’s an article published a month ago in MoD’s official publication Zvezda:
The commander of the 58th Army of the Southern Military District Popov reveals the details of the night battle in the Zaporozhye direction (Zvezda, Ignat Dalakyan & Nikolay Baranov, June 8, 2023 — in Russian)
The article also features an audio recording of Popov.

This probably is a non-existent person invented month ago, and the Wikipedia pages (EN, cloned into RU and CN) being created yesterday from USA to “retcon” him into MSM-reality

The reason Wikipedia page was created yesterday is because Popov got in the news yesterday.

https://structure.mil.ru/management/info.htm?id=12212106@SD_Employee – the actual commander of the mentioned 58th army

Clearly, the page at the MoD’s website has not been updated. Probably on purpose, as the MoD does not want to disclose who commands what after the start of the SMO.

Posted by: S | Jul 13 2023 18:30 utc | 42

Posted by: kupkee | Jul 13 2023 18:35 utc | 43
That NATO scriptwriters chose fatigues for Z’s
costume lends credence to the theory they were expecting quick Russian victory followed by draining insurgency.
Fatigues say “plucky insurgent, fighting imperial forces”, while suit says “civilian representative of democracy”.
Cults of personality need that defining characteristic so normal looking Z had to be put in a defining costume, and it is too late to rebrand now.
Also, i think, NATO was keenly aware of Ukrainian affinity for Star Wars, which has manifest itself many times in Ukraine, most recently as a baby Yoda pin.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 13 2023 18:58 utc | 44

Was Wallace’s public quarrel with Zelenski just a coincidence? I guess not. Now when each NATO member is free (and maybe obliged) to write a security guarantee for Ukraine such nasty verbal fight is a nice way for the UK to escape any tough and serious language used in its guarantee. The world can still learn a lot of tricks from treacherous Albion. At the end it will be just Poland who will be forced to go into war with Russia when UKR army gets near military collapse. Germany has no ammo and heavy weapons (why everybody says that Merkel was stupid? She was a visionary.) and France can’t risk that it gets anihilated in nuclear confrontation with Russia. The rest of NATO doesn’t count and Turkey is in NATO only to cherrypick not to fight a hand which feeds it.

Posted by: S.chneider | Jul 13 2023 19:05 utc | 46

@Arioch #2
Member of the State Duma, retired Lieutenant General Andrey Gurulyov, who himself was the Commander of the 58th Army in 2012–2016, has published Ivan Popov’s address to the subordinates in his Telegram channel yesterday, on July 12, at 22:32 (MSK):

[audio]
Address of the commander of the 58th Combined Arms Army of the Southern Military District of the Russian Armed Forces, Major General Ivan Popov, to his soldiers.

Adding a further note at 22:36 (MSK):

The callsign of the Commander of the Army is SPARTAK. Accordingly, he is addressing his subordinates as GLADIATORS.

Do you seriously think Gurulyov, having commanded the 58th Army in 2012–2016, does not know who is commanding it now? Do you think he “invented” Major General Popov?
Andrey Turchak, First Deputy Chairman of the Federation Council and the Secretary of the General Council of the United Russia Party, has defended Popov and criticized Gurulyov for publicizing Popov’s address, today, on July 13, at 10:29 (MSK):

General Popov’s address was non-public and posted in private chats of the commanders and soldiers of the 58th Army.
The fact that the “member of parliament” Gurulyov somehow obtained it and made a political show out of it, let it remain on his conscience. As well as his other statements and comments.
Ivan’s conscience is clear. The Motherland can be proud of such commanders.
The army was and remains out of politics.

Do you think Turchak “invented” Major General Popov?
Member of the State Duma and the Chairman of its Defense Committee, retired Colonel General Andrey Kartapolov, who himself was the Commander of the 58th Army in 2010–2012 and served as Deputy Defense Minister in 2018–2021, has provided a comment on the Popov situation to the Telegram channel VY SLUSHALI MAYAK, published today, on July 13, at 15:01 (MSK) (emphasis original):

[video]
The Chairman of the Defense Committee of the State Duma Kartapolov commented on the situation with the commander of the 58th Army Ivan Popov
— I’m sure they will solve it [the issue — S].
— Was it worth it publishing such information at all?
— Ask Gurulyov about it. I have my own opinion.
— Will Popov be allowed to work, for example, in the State Duma?
— Popov should serve in the army. He is a promising general. He has everything ahead of him. Let’s wait.
— What’s going on in the army anyway?
— The army is performing combat missions, pushing back the enemy’s offensive on all directions. Moving forward on some directions. People are fighting.

Do you think Kartapolov, given his current position, does not know who is commanding the 58th Army? Do you think he “invented” Major General Popov?

Posted by: S | Jul 13 2023 19:09 utc | 48

Gordon Hahn’s latest. It could do with some editing, but good material.
https://gordonhahn.com/2023/07/13/cracks-in-natos-ukraine-project/

Posted by: KMRIA | Jul 13 2023 19:18 utc | 50

Ben Wallace to Zelensky translated: ‘we send you billions in weapons and billions more to prop up your mickey mouse economy and all we ask is that you sacrifice a quarter million of your people, and this is the thanks we get? What do you think we are, f__king Amazon?’
Maybe Zelensky should have signed up for Prime.

Posted by: Mike R | Jul 13 2023 19:22 utc | 52

popov popped off after a storm shadow incoming
the storm shadow uses plato cave sim hunting technology
developed at the tavistock by Jasper Maskelyne mime artist lgbt plus minus troops

Posted by: norman wisdom | Jul 13 2023 19:25 utc | 54

Posted by: Waldorf | Jul 13 2023 19:02 utc | 45
Tymoshenko, actually.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 13 2023 19:26 utc | 56

For Warsaw, the war in Ukraine is just a means to an end.

Not that it’s exactly different for anyone else involved in this.

Posted by: Aleksandr Nevsky | Jul 13 2023 19:27 utc | 58

zrada! prigozhin & kadyrov’s media practice is spreading. general major ivan “spartacus” popov, the head of the 58th combined arms army, has published an audio message to his comrades about circumstances of his dismissal and details on the report he has presented to army leadership: https://twitter.com/Teoyaomiquu/status/1679239805094313987 it makes him the first army official so far who openly speaks against shoigu.
(about surovikin: there are new rumours that he is in his way to belorussia)

Posted by: Dreadwhitegazebo | Jul 13 2023 19:33 utc | 60

That was honestly pretty sad. You can tell he really cares about his guys and is sick of the incompetence in the high command. It doesn’t sound like he’s prepared to rise up against Shoigu, but it’s pretty damning for the MoD either way.

Posted by: Moose | Jul 13 2023 19:37 utc | 62

Posted by: Udkanten | Jul 13 2023 18:24 utc | 41
Yeah. The smallest thermonuclear warhead is around 100kt. In 200 meters of water 20-30km from land it would have produced a wave that would have swamped Bornholm islands east coast and given anyone on the beaches in Gdansk a very bad day. If even a small fissile tactical nuke were used observable to the naked eye displacement of water would have been seen and none was. Did not happen. Only 3 of the 4 mined pipes broke so again not a nuke.

Posted by: badjoke | Jul 13 2023 19:39 utc | 64

trolls out today

Posted by: paddy | Jul 13 2023 19:52 utc | 66

@bevin #36:

“..There is no chance to reeducate them, Russia failed re-educating them for last 300 years, and Poland failed it a hundred or two years before that. It just does not work. ..” Arioch@33
This smacks of the same sort of racism that the Ukrainian fascists employ. Just in reverse.

Exactly.
Incidentally, the same Vityazeva/Rodzhers/“Koshkin Sibiryak” clique that is smearing everyone pointing out real problems in the Russian military as “grifters” or “traitors”—even volunteers like Vladimir Grubnik who’s been helping Donbass for many years and who is currently one of the leading organizers of the volunteer movement—has also been pushing this chauvinist notion that all Ukrainians/Malorussians are “beyond redemption,” even though their behaviour is well-explained by the 100 years of persistent Western-sponsored Ukrainian Nationalist propaganda that was in many ways assisted, not opposed, by the Soviet Union (because Lenin drank the Ukrainian Nationalist kool-aid), then barely opposed by the Russian Federation.

Posted by: S | Jul 13 2023 20:02 utc | 68

Good article on recent developments.
https://seymourhersh.substack.com/p/fear-and-loathing-on-air-force-one

Posted by: jpc | Jul 13 2023 20:07 utc | 70

jpc @ 70
That was good, most insightful info yet on Erdogan happenings, much better then Hersh’s “no shit, Sherlock” NS2 “revelations”. The USA had Erdogan in its sites since the failed coup, after that failed they started using their financial market control to destroy Turkiye’s economy, they couldn’t sanction it but they could undermining like they did to Japan back in the 1980s. That, like many, many other things only started to make sense after the NATO attack on Russia.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 13 2023 20:20 utc | 72

As a person Popov is real (the name is mundane, there are a lot Popovs)
Colonel Ivan Popov was mentioned in 2017 at https://function.mil.ru/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12143316@egNews
Not one mention in 2023 – sadly search filters are jot persisted in the URL, https://function.mil.ru/function/search_the_site.htm
The idea that the army could deliberately spoof/delay indofrmation would apply to army media as well, TV Zvezda.
The equal search for 58th army since Jan 01 shows at least two personal pages related been updated in 2023:
https://structure.mil.ru/management/info.htm?id=12452847@SD_Employee
https://structure.mil.ru/management/info.htm?id=12452860@SD_Employee
So the idea that mil.ru site does not update biographies is questionable.
It might be reasonable to suspect the actual commanders pages are removed from public access, but the former commanders pages would probably get updates to reflect their “former” status.

Posted by: Arioch | Jul 13 2023 20:39 utc | 74

@KMRIA 50
thought so too, except may be his last phrase which as often in his texts does glare with some apokalypse:
” I sense that in a pinch the project may go forward anyway. If it does, crunch time comes closer for all Europe. ”
What of course this means is the threat of WWIII via combined NATO Baltic troops in UKR.
I could do without that sense.

Posted by: AG | Jul 13 2023 20:48 utc | 76

This smacks of the same sort of racism that the Ukrainian fascists employ. Just in reverse.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 13 2023 17:27 utc | 36
There is at least one difference: they want to colonize and dominate, we want divorce and independence.
I also heard Hitler brushed he teeth, so I would brush line tonight. And I am sure, such a principled person you sound would never brush his teeth ever again.
Now your words smack of the same “feel good” denial that made USA and West home for all kinds of illegals, enforcing their culture upon their hosts.
This “we would inject them into your house and you will be responsible to educate them by mere example” attitude was exemplified by mentioned above Lenin and then pationate but naive bolsheviks.
We do not want bolshevik experiment run over us again. You want the 2nd run, do it, but in YOUR house and at YOUR expense, we would gladly learn form results of YOUR experiment.
Russians are bad nationalists? Okay the, help Ukrainians, save them from us into YOUR house. Or go on and take their land by YOUR forces and lives.
But don’t demand others to do what makes you feel good. That’s cheap.
– – – – –
BTW all that hand-wringing about 100 years of American and Bolshevik propaganda are irrelevant. They explain nothing. All ex-USSR nations were equally subjected to both. Still different nations entered different trajectories.
In practice, I think, it only means next 100 years there would be some other explanations (and the life would always have new usefully bitter aspects) made. That was how it went for centuries, why should it change now?
Also, the pre-1917 Russian writer Kuprin wrote a somewhat romantic short novel “Olesya”, there later was French movie loosely based on it. Those who sincerely think Ukrainians are only became Ukrainians when Lenin and NATO took Sauron hat and cursed them should perhaps read the opening pages of that book that predates both.

Posted by: Arioch | Jul 13 2023 20:58 utc | 78

Two items stood out that I had overlooked.
Turkey is struggling financially add in the catastrophic earthquake.
That’s a huge burden.
Second the Russians have been giving the Turks gas on tic it seems.
I’d imagine this has the Russians displeased greatly and might be giving pause for reflection on the arrangement.
So Erdogan needs to decide what he needs most.
Consistent and reliable Russian energy.
Or US promised aid which I will guess could be shitty weapons and some credit to rebuild some homes.
Maybe there’s a promise of a gas line from the gulf.
Then again the Turks have the Euphrates dammed up which is pissing off the Iraqis.
Erdogans time of playing both sides might be in its final stages.

Posted by: jpc | Jul 13 2023 21:08 utc | 80

I’ll bite S. – Where is your ‘overwhelming’ evidence of actual planes being downed in the little Wagner theater? I know Langley looks like a bunch of country yokels on this one, so perhaps the sensitivity is understandable, but I have seen little evidence and certainly none ‘overwhelming’.
Some images of scrap in a field and Putins oblique reference to losses..that’s it. To be clear then, the evidence partially relies on Putin being truthful?
I’ll leave this one in the fog of war for now. There is ample room to speculate this was all theater for various purposes.
As an aside, if Ukraine were prosecuting anything like a successful ‘total’ war, or even partially, it would force Russias hand. The fact that the Ukrainian tactics and overall strategy thus far have been myopic, clumsy, hamfisted amateurish nonsense that gets everyone EXCEPT the planners killed means Russia has all the time it needs to maximize pain for the West. And those planners just keep on paying off….for Russia.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jul 13 2023 21:21 utc | 82

I was just watching some of the incredibly crass proclamations from the NATO conference. What a bunch of pompous, arrogant, ignorant, idiotic poseurs who purportedly run the World. It’s downright embarrassing. Have they no shame? Parading like preening peacocks but with nothing between the ears and no wondrous backside to flourish into a fan.
Once I had processed this abhorrence of a ‘show’ I turned to the content. Well, it seems to me as though a Tragedie of historical proportions is brewing. Zelensky, being several brain cells short of a functioning brain, sold his soul to the Devil for all the glories and riches in the world and for power and money only to realise, when the storming, steaming, snorting fire Devil came for his soul, he had achieved nothing, absolutely nothing other than the destruction of his country (out of sheer greed and hubris), the murder of 2 generations of men and some luxury mansions around the world and his offshore Billions. Can’t use those when he’s dead though. The Devil is waiting there, breathing and snorting into his ear, that his time has come and the prize, his soul, is about to be taken.
He is alone in the world really, even the collective West has had enough of him, his demands, his arrogance and his delusions of Power and grandiosity. Good luck with that Zelensky, you are not long for this world. Either the CIA MI6 or the Nazis will get you soon enough. Just like they did the Skripals.

Posted by: Jo Dominich | Jul 13 2023 21:31 utc | 84

Ukrainian blogger Andrey Sapunov on the new Ukrainian law banning all geographical names that are in any way associated with the Tsardom of Russia, the Russian Empire, the USSR or the Russian Federation:

The Ukraine bans all geographical (and not only geographical) names associated with the Russian Federation
In the Ukraine, a new law has been adopted, which should completely erase all names that are in any way connected with Russia and the Soviet Union. This law is called “On the condemnation and prohibition of propaganda of Russian imperial policy in the Ukraine and the decolonization of toponymy.” It will enter into force as soon as July 27, 2023. I decided to read this normative act and share it with readers.
What is banned? All geographical names, names of legal entities (that is, companies, shops, etc.) and objects of property rights are now prohibited if they contain the symbols of Russia, the name of Russia, mentions of outstanding, memorable, historical and cultural places in Russia.
It is also forbidden to use the names of Russian settlements (that is, Barnaul or Altay streets will disappear from Ukrainian cities), dates (for example, The 1905 Revolution Street), events (this includes such events as the Decembrist Revolt, for example, as it’s an event specifically of the Russian history).
The old law on decommunization eliminated the names of settlements and streets in which Soviet figures and events were mentioned, and under the new law, the erasure will be even more complete. Moreover, since this is a law, not a recommendation, not a single Belgorodskaya Street, say, or Kubanskaya Street will remain anywhere in the Ukraine, even in the smallest village.
The symbols mentioned above are allowed if they are in private collections (that is, you can possess commemorative Soviet rubles with Lenin, for example), are sold in antique shops, are present on tombstones in cemeteries, in museums, libraries, and on old documents issued before the year of 2023. The old names are also allowed to remain in museums, at festivals of historical reconstruction, in history books.
According to the law, all monuments that “symbolize Russian imperial policy” must be demolished (the only exception is the monuments at cemeteries).
Separately, the law stipulates that it is possible to preserve a monument that is not directly related to Russia, the USSR and their imperial policy, if Soviet/Russian symbols are removed from it.
Once again, here’s what is banned […]:
– symbols and names of the Tsardom of Russia (Tsardom of Moscow),
– the Russian Empire,
– the Russian Republic,
– the Russian State,
– the Russian Socialist Federative Soviet Republic,
– the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics,
– the Russian Federation.
Separately, it is stipulated that all regions, republics, rayons [districts — S] and oblasts, governorates, unrecognized states that were created in the periods from the Tsardom of Russia to the Russian Federation are also banned.
Also, a complete ban on mentioning all people who “participated in or contributed to the implementation of Russian imperial policy, publicly, including in the media, in literary and other works of art, supported, glorified or justified Russian imperial policy, called for Russification or Ukrainophobia.” This wording allows, in general, to enroll a very wide range of people in this ban.
Also, a ban on the names of toponyms and monuments to all people who “occupied leading positions in government and administration, political organizations, parties, armed formations” of all states from the Tsardom of Russia to the modern Russian Federation.
Another ban—all names of companies or objects of property rights “in honor of historical events, anniversaries and holidays” in historical Russia—from the Tsardom of Russia to the Russian Federation.
…

So, a complete erasure of Velikorussia from modern Ukrainian names. Even though most of what was left of the Ancient Rus’ population has moved to Velikorussia after the Mongol invasion. Even though it was the Zaporozhian Host that has repeatedly petitioned the Tsardom of Russia to allow it to become its vassal. Even though Novorossiya was never controlled by the Ancient Rus’—neither fully controlled by the Zaporozhian Host—and it was the Russian Empire that has conquered it and founded all of its cities, populating them with people from all over the Russian Empire, meaning, those cities have been speaking the Russian language and had Russian culture since the day they were founded.
In other words, a massive cultural genocide, a culturocide, if you will, is taking place right before our eyes. Yet the propagandists keep assuring us that “slow is best”—all to distract us from the failures and the guilt of those who had 8 years and trillions of rubles to properly prepare for the SMO, yet didn’t even supply the army with encrypted tactical comms.

Posted by: S | Jul 13 2023 21:47 utc | 86

@UWDude #81:

At the time, there was no evidence.

There was enough evidence at the time, and I was posting it, but it was dismissed as “fake”, “old CIA footage,” etc.

As of now the evidence points to at most 2 aircraft, and 13 fatalities. Not 7 aircraft and 33 pilots.

Yes. And I never claimed anything more that the Il-22PP and the Ka-52 and their crews.
@Doctor Eleven #82:

I’ll bite S. – Where is your ‘overwhelming’ evidence of actual planes being downed […]?

Read my comments in the Open Thread 2023-155 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5).

Posted by: S | Jul 13 2023 22:06 utc | 88

At the informal press conference Putin held today, he was aksed about Vilnius and the G-7 missive:

Question: The NATO summit has concluded. There, of course, it is already difficult to understand: they promise Ukraine NATO membership is not promised, or it is only, as they say, something looming in front of their noses. But still, some kind of easier path is supposedly promised.
In addition, the “Big Seven” adopted a declaration on certain security guarantees for Ukraine. It is stated that Ukraine will be To support “as long as it takes” is a quote. Paris begins supply long-range missiles.
How can you assess all this and how serious are you? Does this create a threat to the security of Russia, and Ukraine too?
Vladimir Putin: What As for Ukraine’s membership in NATO, we have repeatedly talked about this, it creates threats to Russia’s security, obviously. And, as a matter of fact, the reason one of the reasons for the special military operation is the threat of Ukraine joining NATO.
I am sure that this will not increase the security of itself Ukraine, and indeed in general, will make the world much more vulnerable and lead to additional tension in the international arena.
Therefore, I do not see anything good in this. Our position is well known and has long been formulated.
As for the supply of weapons, various weapons, then we see how many hopes were pinned on the supply of missiles far enough Range. Well? Yes, they cause damage, but nothing critical in the zone There are no hostilities with the use of these missiles. Ditto tanks foreign-made, infantry fighting vehicles.
As of yesterday evening, we have tanks – only from July 4 – 311 units were destroyed, of which a significant part, I think, one third at least, Western-made, including the Leopards.
I can tell you that Ukrainian servicemen Often they refuse to even get into these tanks. Why? Because they are a priority target for our guys, they are destroyed first of all on the battlefield – And this is an unpleasant circumstance that, in general, prevents them from being used. And they burn just like everyone else – even better than the rest of the famous ones Soviet-made T-72.
Therefore, from the point of view of a possible change [situation] on the battlefield, a new supply of new weapons will not give anything – only will aggravate the situation, and it will aggravate for the Ukrainian side and will inflame Further conflict. If someone is interested in this, and, apparently, such There are interested parties, then this is the best way to implement this task – to incite the conflict further, to supply new weapons.
Now about security. We have already many times They said: any country has the right to ensure its security, And, of course, it has the right to choose the way to achieve this goal, which considers it the most correct for himself.
There is only one limitation. It is due to the fact that that, in achieving the security of one country, there should be no threat to of another country. Therefore, we proceed from the understanding that this principle, which It has been repeatedly declared in various international documents, after all will be taken into account. And Ukraine, of course, has the right to provide its Security.
By the way, in the draft document that I am talking about I have already mentioned many times, namely in the draft agreement between Russia and Ukraine, which was prepared in Istanbul and which was then thrown into the trash can by the Ukrainian regime, this draft contained in great detail the issues of ensuring the security of Ukraine are outlined. We still had to think, Do we agree with everything that was stated there, but in general I believe that this The document was acceptable.
Therefore, it is not unusual for us to have it has now been declared both in NATO and in the Group of Seven, and we are not against the discussion questions of this kind. But I repeat once again: under the obligatory condition ensuring the security of the Russian Federation.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 13 2023 22:07 utc | 90

Yet the propagandists keep assuring us that “slow is best”—all to distract us from the failures and the guilt of those who had 8 years and trillions of rubles to properly prepare for the SMO, yet didn’t even supply the army with encrypted tactical comms.
Posted by: S | Jul 13 2023 21:47 utc | 86
This is where S comes from. He is quite sure he knows better, and Russia could have prepared better.
Perhaps, in 2014, he was quite sure Russia could march into Ukraine and put Yanukovych right back in as president?
In 2014, I saw Russia as weak. I still do, but not nearly as weak as it was eight years ago. It also must be noted that the USA, er go NATO, was quite strong, politically, although on the slide since 2010 or so, when it became apparent Obama was not any more friendly to the world than Bush was.
I think of Russia could take Ukraine, quickly, without dusting it in the process, it would. However, it is fighting a formidable enemy. As I have noted before, the “wanderwaffen” are poo-pood here all the time. But that does not mean NATO is a secondary school team playing against Russias championship team. Both of them are championship teams, and this is the big game, and there is a lot to consider after the game as well
We dont even know if we are in the first half or first minute at this point.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 13 2023 22:25 utc | 92

@karlof1 90
Swissman Jacques Baud gave a “lecture” in Germany a week ago.
In the Q&A he very briefly mentions that Selenskij called the Swiss Foreign Ministry suggetsing that they offer Switzerland as the location for peace talks.
This allegedly took place on day#1 of the invasion (or so).
I am only mentioning it here, because Baud as longtime Swiss intelligence officer would not make things like that up.
Its his “home turf”.
And I did not read that anwywhere else.
He also reiterated that Lavrov called the first draft (March? I have to look it up again) a good basis.
(ex)-barfly Richard Steven Hack pronounced doubts about the seriousness of the 2022 negotiations.
But I assume it indeed was serious.
I see no reason to believe otherwise.
But we have to stick to some evidence, so I keep RSH´s argument in my mind.

Posted by: AG | Jul 13 2023 22:28 utc | 94

@ karlof1 | Jul 13 2023 22:07 utc | 90
Thanks for this summary.
I am trying to read his words in many ways, but fail to make any depth of it.
Do I understand that he is suggesting, that directly talking to Ukrainians is doable, but the USA is out of the picture for any negotiations until it respects RF’s security concerns?

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 13 2023 22:31 utc | 96

AG | Jul 13 2023 22:28 utc | 94–
Thanks for your reply. First and foremost, there was no invasion by Russia; however, there was an invasion by NATO of Ukraine in 2014 that persists. If the West calls its actions in Libya an R2P, then Russia is well within its rights to term what it did and continues to do an R2P.
As for Zelensky making said call, IMO that’s doubtful. Who made the arrangements for the talks in Belarus is unknown by me. Russia’s quick feints had their affect. I very much doubt we’ll ever know the truth about Ukraine’s actions related to the nixed negotiations.
whirlX | Jul 13 2023 22:31 utc | 96–
Thanks for your reply. Russia’s policy is that it will talk with anyone as long as some basic conditions are met. The so-called Zelensky Plan is a non-starter, and any solution must take into consideration Russia’s security concerns. The other Q that was asked was about the grain deal which I posted to that thread. In his answer, Putin made clear that the West must change and that Russia will wait “as long as it takes”–the Bidenism I pointed out. IMO, that also applies to Ukraine and NATO. There’re other aspects of Russia’s defense policy that Putin didn’t include, such as Russia’s response to long range missiles and F-16s, where he made the general observation that they’ll merely escalate and “aggravate” the situation. If Putin disagreed with Lavrov’s statement about F-16s, he would have said so, but then he would be contradicting himself as he’s made similar statements in the past regarding both jets and nuclear capable missiles. Putin vowed to destroy the missile launch sites if they ever launched, so I presume the same will apply to F-16s–if they enter the battlespace, their airfields and all means of support will be targeted wherever they are and the jets like the missiles will “burn.” Apparently, team Biden thinks Putin is bluffing, has forgotten what was said, or is again acting in its hubris and arrogant manner. And if that sort of escalation happens in the Ukraine theatre, I expect something similar to occur in Syria.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 13 2023 23:13 utc | 98

Jams O’Donnell @ 30
From RT today:
Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov has said:
The plans to supply F-16s to Kiev is yet another example of an escalatory move by the West and in itself is “an extremely dangerous development,” he stated.
“We have informed the nuclear powers – the US, UK and France – that Russia can’t ignore the ability of these aircraft to carry nuclear weapons,” the foreign minister continued.
“No assurances [by the West] will help here,” he warned. In the midst of fighting, the Russian military isn’t going to investigate whether any specific jet is equipped to deliver nuclear weapons or not, he added.
“The very fact of the appearance of such systems within the Ukrainian Armed Forces will be considered by us as a threat from the West in the nuclear domain,” Lavrov said.
RESPONSE: Thanks for posting what Lavrov said. In the current fog of war, what Lavrov says is always worth noting and listening to in order to help determine the current and future Russian moves in the existing conflict.

Posted by: young | Jul 13 2023 23:55 utc | 100