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July 9, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-164
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Are there genuine currents of dissent about the use of cluster munitions
Or is it just posturing and Pearl clutching.
Never heard anything about the DU munitions despite the indisputable evidence that they are a long term health disaster.
Posted by: jpc | Jul 9 2023 12:58 utc | 1
Re: Cluster munitions ?
Rules-based-order doesn’t care. These are the same people that justify forced sterilization of Negros, killing 10 million Korean civilians, 5 million killed South East Asians civilians, Not-germ-warfare-honest tests over San Francisco, and much more.
A college roommate of mine was a lifer at State, now retired – he strongly defends the expansion of NATO because he says a verbal commitment doesn’t count. They believe their own lies.
Cluster munitions ain’t nothing.
Posted by: Exile | Jul 9 2023 13:13 utc | 2
The US is destroying NATO over the supply of cluster munitions for the Armed Forces by Lyubov Stepushova for Military Pravda.
According to the liberal nature of the Western world, a split in NATO over the supply of cluster munitions to the Armed Forces of Ukraine has a more destructive effect on the alliance than other disagreements.
The life of a Ukrainian is insignificant for Washington and Kyiv
The United States will send Ukraine old models of cluster munitions that do not work immediately in 14% of cases, The New York Times reported. Military experts told the newspaper that this was an “unacceptably high” level, as it would lead to huge civilian casualties. Cluster munitions consist of containers that open in the air and scatter a large number of small projectiles randomly.
According to Joe Biden , Washington decided to supply “cassettes” because it ran out of conventional shells for the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
National Security Adviser to the President of the United States Jake Sullivan at a press conference at the White House explained as follows:
“We understand that cluster bombs pose a risk to the civilian population. That’s why we delayed this decision as long as we could… but it will be even more risky if Russian troops go ahead and take even more Ukrainian territory, because Ukraine has no artillery “.
With Vladimir Zelenskii, he does not care that the population of Ukraine will be destroyed.
This is despite the fact that the former press attaché of the White House, Jane Psaki, stated in February 2022 that the use of cluster bombs is a war crime. However, the United States can change its mind, international law has not been a decree for them for a long time. Moreover, after the depleted uranium, which floated in a cloud through western Ukraine to Poland, cluster shells are “not so scary” for Washington.
Cognitive dissonance of the liberal world
NATO, through its Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg , said on Friday that each member state should decide on a case-by-case basis whether to give a green light to cluster munition shipments.
It must be taken into account that the liberal world thinks that it is to take care of the “little man” and his rights, and the right to life is the main right, and this is put at the forefront of their entire philosophy and requirements for another world. Therefore, Washington’s decision caused a shock in the West.
Germany, Britain, Spain, Canada opposed the supply of cluster munitions, which signed the 2008 Convention on the Prohibition of the Production and Use of Cluster Munitions (Russia, the USA and Ukraine did not sign it).
Spanish Defense Minister Margarita Robles stressed that this is a US decision, not NATO. In her opinion, such weapons should not be used even in the framework of “legitimate defence”.
The list of disagreements is expanding, a split is planned in NATO
Differences within NATO are widening on many other issues, including:
[*]admission of Ukraine to NATO. The US and Germany are pushing to focus on arms and munitions rather than a more provocative step towards a formal invitation to join NATO.
[*]increase in the production of ammunition for Ukraine. France is against the involvement of countries that are not members of the alliance;
[*]admission of Sweden to NATO (against Türkiye and Hungary). Recep Tayyip Erdogan accuses Sweden of being too lenient towards “Kurdish terrorist groups”;
[*]increased military spending by each NATO country. NATO leaders in Vilnius are to sign a new defense spending commitment of “at least” 2% of gross domestic product. But many countries, including Luxembourg, Germany, Canada and Italy, are against it. According to estimates released by NATO, only 11 out of 31 Allies are expected to hit the 2% target this year;
[*]the election of a new NATO Secretary General – there is no compromise option;
[*]the policy of containing China, which will lead to the destruction of the economies of the EU countries in order to prepare for war with the PLA.
Russia’s opinion on cluster bombs for the Armed Forces of Ukraine
The Russian Foreign Ministry believes that the American decision on cluster munitions is a “gesture of desperation” and “evidence of impotence” against the background of the failure of the publicized Ukrainian “counteroffensive” in order to prolong the agony of the Ukrainian authorities. This was stated by the Ambassador to the United States Sergei Antonov.
He warned that the next “miracle weapon”, which Washington and Kiev are counting on, without thinking about the grave consequences for the civilian population, will in no way affect the course of the special operation, the goals and objectives of which will be fully achieved. And Washington will actually be an accomplice in the mining of the territory and will fully share the responsibility for those who died from explosions, including Russian and Ukrainian children.
Posted by: NYABo | Jul 9 2023 13:15 utc | 3
Never heard anything about the DU munitions despite the indisputable evidence that they are a long term health disaster.
Posted by: jpc | Jul 9 2023 12:58 utc | 1
There have been protests for decades, but nothing that rises to the level of having to be paid attention to. Modern media is a great pacifier, people suck on it all day. When we were a nation of farmers, they never would have put up with this pollution everywhere.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 9 2023 13:16 utc | 4
Exile @ 2
Cluster munitions ain’t nothing.
Yup, I had replied to karlof1 @ 223
in the last thread but I’ll move it to here:
The discord is pure show, they are all equally amoral and bloodthirsty and they are playing good cop bad cop with the cluster munitions. In the EU there is just enough popular consciousness to make endorsement problematic, so they delegated it to the USA where most citizens when it comes to military policy believe in doing whatever is necessary to get the job done. Difficult sell for Scholz, Meloni, Macron, easy sell for Biden so he got the gig.
I’ll bet the EU nations still have stocks of cluster munitions, the ex-Warsaw pact certainly do, Poland supposedly still makes them, they will all pour them into Ukraine under the USA flag while publicly absolving themselves.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 9 2023 13:22 utc | 5
I wouldn’t be surprised if the location of the DU shells was deliberately leaked to Russia by the US in a backroom deal.
Many things done in this conflict appear to be done exclusively for appearances.
I also wouldn’t make much of the token opposition to the cluster bombs. The UK is salty the Americans shot down Wallace for Stoltenbergs role, which again, is probably retribution for UK escalating the war past what Biden wanted.
Or so the rumours go. We just don’t know much, and only one thing for certain – Ukraine is fucked.
Posted by: V86 | Jul 9 2023 13:26 utc | 6
The controversy over the supply of cluster munitions is a welcome sight.
It seems to be a step too far for some in the coalition of the clueless who have been cheerleading this tragic slaughter thus far.
Although it bears keeping in mind the last supply of toxic munitions sent to Ukraine, the Depleted Uranium shells.
If my memory is correct, these poisonous artillery rounds did not make it to the front lines,Russian reconnaissance and electronic intelligence allowed them to follow the supply chain and destroy them in situ West of Kiev.
I would not be surprised if a similar fate was in store for the cluster grenades when they arrive on Ukrainian soil.
Posted by: Orchard1 | Jul 9 2023 13:29 utc | 7
Military summary:
-AFU 128th brigade was withdrawn from Piyatikhatki, replaced by 117 / 118 brigade (these are Nato reserves armed with the T-72E and Twardy tanks)
-They are supposedly tasked with re-attacking toward Zerebyanky and expanding Piyatikahtki bridgehead, but seems they are starting from square 1
-AFU tried to attack east of Robotino on the fields but was pushed back
-AFU tried to attack frontal trenches of Robotino and managed to take it. AFU sent tanks and armored vehicles to support them, but weather became rainy, the field became mud and the vehicles got stuck. The AFU infantry vanguard in front of Robotino was shelled, forced to withdraw and trench was retaken
-RU has used kamikaze vehicles packed with explosives succesfully south of Marinka, near Novomikhalovka to take another trench closer to this settlement
-AFU strategy is to attack between Klischheevka and Artemovsk to cut the road, so far all their attacks on Klischeevka have failed
-RU managed to retake some AFU position west of Yahidne or Berkhovka
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 9 2023 13:31 utc | 8
LightYearsFromHome@5….ah, yes, but remember, it’s a SLoMo, the gift of war that just keeps on giving….hopefully they send the child friendly versions, specially designed to just blow a hand or foot off, bit of a drain on the system, but the kid gets to live, future organ donor perhaps. Big market, kids blood n stuff, well maybe that’s just movie star speculation. Although there are 16 century wood carvings depicting such delightful scenes.
Cheers M
A common refrain heard as a kid, “stay away from the waste ground.” It wasn’t waste ground technically, just a section of houses that had been blown up by the Germans during WWII. Many streets had waste ground sections, the fear was unexploded ordinance. We still played in the waste ground, can’t imagine as a kid having to side step anti personnel mines.
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 9 2023 13:40 utc | 9
Drole de guerre.
Like Stalin sending General Paulus and his men to Turkey to make their way home to the Reich in due course.
Posted by: anon | Jul 9 2023 13:40 utc | 10
[*]the policy of containing China, which will lead to the destruction of the economies of the EU countries in order to prepare for war with the PLA.
Posted by: NYABo | Jul 9 2023 13:15 utc | 3
That sounds kind of self-defeating. The Baltic chihuahuas are “excited” and endorse the US plan to stop trade with China. But destroying the economy this way won’t help any sort of war preparation.
Probably China itself won’t end trade with EU or US (unless they themselves end it). But they will start applying more focused embargoes on some single strategic resources or commodities, to the extent China as a state is able to do so.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 9 2023 13:42 utc | 11
@Posted by: unimperator | Jul 9 2023 13:42 utc | 11
“Probably China itself won’t end trade with EU or US (unless they themselves end it). But they will start applying more focused embargoes on some single strategic resources or commodities, to the extent China as a state is able to do so.”
The CCP has plans out to 2049, their leadership displays incredible patience in the face of their enemy committing collective slow-motion suicide. Why invade Taiwan when it will fall into your lap after you better the West in chip technology and the West will be so much weaker? Why create a crisis with the EU when you can just keep turning the thumb screws a little at a time? In response the Western elites display collective ADHD and an utter ignorance of long term strategy, subtlety and finesse.
The German car industry (and the Japanese one) is currently busy losing a huge amount of its sales and profitability as it gets crushed by the EV manufacturers in China. The Chinese state can simply sit back and enjoy the show. The exports of Chinese EVs to Europe are only slowly ramping up, better to boil the European market slowly than cause a big sudden reaction. Also better to focus resources on killing the foreign competition in China and Asia. Long term strategy, patience, subtlety and finesse.
Ukrainian flak
If I do this, I spend the evening cleaning the guns.
Posted by: Passerby | Jul 9 2023 14:00 utc | 13
Boris Rozhin quotes Azov commander “Volyna” from his interview with the Turkish media:
I’d like to start training reinforcements. My combat experience is limited to the defense of Mariupol, and since then military practice has advanced a lot. All this needs to be mastered. I don’t want to go straight to the front. Perhaps this would be important for propaganda purposes, but we have already been kept for almost a month in the catacombs under Azovstal for propaganda purposes, where we senselessly lost hundreds of our soldiers. And, probably, almost everyone would have died there if not for the intervention of the Americans, who made a deal with the Russians to withdraw their high-ranking officers from the facility in exchange for the capitulation of the garrison…
Posted by: S | Jul 9 2023 14:07 utc | 14
“Washington will actually be an accomplice in the mining of the territory and will fully share the responsibility for those who died from explosions, including Russian and Ukrainian children.”
Posted by: NYABo | Jul 9 2023 13:15 utc | 3
This is an approval of “late-term abortion” of Slavic children by Biden the Catholic (“I am a Zionist”) guided by the genocidal deciders at the US State Department. Nuland-Kagan wants to snatch laurels from the late monster Madeleine Albright, “the death of 500.000 Iraqi children was worth it.”
Posted by: Cerena | Jul 9 2023 14:12 utc | 15
155 mm us cluster shell has older bomblets.
in spite of the propaganda the dud rate is multiples of the stated rate, referring to tests.
us designed them to take out huge amounts of meat, both intentional, and otherwise
Posted by: paddy | Jul 9 2023 14:19 utc | 16
14 Home made flak:
When you throw stuff into the air it may hit something. Soviet infantry used similar tactics against Germans, and at least one bomber pilot regarded it as scary and perilous.
Sooooo…Sputnik has up to date article on the funding of Ukraine military and other spending lending etc…but Biden says it must double to see Ukraine through autumn winter. Nato seems to be drafting up a “Memoranfum of Understanding” at Vilnius for potential Nato mebership maybe Ukr is not invited to attend… individual countries will ???make agreements under an “umbrella’…ie anything to avoid Ukr to join Nato and might trigger Article 5….maybe is a get out for western countries too as maybe just maybe the “alliance ” is having a wake up call from some senior politicians in uSA and EU???
UK paper says Gerasimov has gone????
Posted by: Jo | Jul 9 2023 14:23 utc | 18
Link to Wikileaks-unidos-valora-enviar-bombas-racimo-ucrania-apoyar-contraofensiva_2023070764a7dad8f78688000118db3a.html”>Spanish tv. News item about cluster bombs; the video shown does not look like cluster bombs; looks more like incendiaries.
Posted by: Pablete | Jul 9 2023 14:30 utc | 19
Craig Murray today:
Apart from being morally disgusting, dropping unmarked minefields leaving scattered explosives to kill children for years, cluster bombs are a weapon that admits the vaunted “counter offensive” is a failure.
If you are going forward you don’t sow a minefield in front of you.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 9 2023 14:38 utc | 20
@Exile 2:
“…he strongly defends the expansion of NATO because he says a verbal commitment doesn’t count.”
Would a written and signed commitment have counted? How many treaties has the Imperialist States of Amerikastan signed and torn up in the last 25 years?
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jul 9 2023 14:51 utc | 21
Posted by: sillydog | Jul 9 2023 14:05 utc | 15
As I’ve said since the US invasion of Iraq, there is no such thing as “international law” that applies to war. As the more honest US officials state there is only the “rules-based order” which is made up of diktats that come from the Washington regime (the real “New Rome”). International law is an interesting fiction and has some resonance for many people but, obviously, is not enforceable and thus not law.
The Empire is what it is and will not fade away regardless of what happens with the proxy war in Ukraine which is being kept alive by massive spending from the Empire and, as far as I can see, all the ruling elites are taking their cut mainly in their ability to stay in power but also skimming some of the cash from the seemingly endless supply of money from the US Treasury.
Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Jul 9 2023 14:55 utc | 22
“Are there genuine currents of dissent about the use of cluster munitions?”
Yes, they leave a long-term mess.
“Or is it just posturing and Pearl clutching?”
Depends on the motive of the one advocating.
“Never heard anything about the DU munitions despite the indisputable evidence that they are a long-term health disaster.”
Damn man, you missed a lot.
Remember that exceptional explosion by Khmelnitsky?
Where did that cloud of Dust and Ashes with burnt up depleted uranium shells flow to again?
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas | Jul 9 2023 14:56 utc | 23
The cluster munitions don’t make much sense for an advancing army, though Kiev is willing to clear minefields with infantry. I’ll reiterate that real reason is the west being out of 155mm conventional shells (at least to the point where there are none to spare). And the production increase promised a year ago hasn’t happened yet. Sullivan said “until we ramp up”. He didn’t say, “until our new production capacity restocks depots” or, “until the factories we’ve constructed are at operational capacity, currently they’re at 80%”, or anything indicating that there was real new capacity on the horizon.
It was supposed to be 20k/month this spring. I’ll bet they’re struggling to keep up with the old 15k/month still. The timeline for sustaining Ukraine at anywhere near its current activity is probably measured in months and less than six of those.
Posted by: Lex | Jul 9 2023 14:59 utc | 24
oh …and what happens now since Turkey hroke agreement re sending back Azov to Ukraine.. Russia is p—-d off? Peskov certainly is.. on behalf of Putin. I bet Duma not happy with yet another agreement by Putin eg grain that just does not work …
Posted by: Jo | Jul 9 2023 15:16 utc | 25
Turkey’s in a very safe middle position with room to spare but there should be a sense of resignation for Erdoğan knowing he can’t choose sides without losing that safety: he sticks to small potatoes, swaggers a bit and stays put.
Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jul 9 2023 15:17 utc | 26
Roger 10
This is the curse we suffer from. Our politicians only think short term and don’t seem to ever plan or think of long term implications. The leadership in China and Russia plan years and decades ahead.
Posted by: Merandor | Jul 9 2023 15:17 utc | 27
If you are going forward you don’t sow a minefield in front of you.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 9 2023 14:38 utc | 18
The cluster munitions don’t make much sense for an advancing army, th
Posted by: Lex | Jul 9 2023 14:59 utc | 22
Good observations both
The escalation of desperation is happening.
What next?
Posted by: jpc | Jul 9 2023 15:19 utc | 28
Cluster munitions mark a turning point, as most of nato has signed treaties against it and no one can say they care about Ukrainians and then help kill Ukrainians with cluster munitions. Everyone is aware of how they stay behind and the US purposely left the dud rate higher at 2.35 percent
Sure nato doesn’t care about that but they do care about image and this will permanently tarnish it. Ukraine is already on record with the petal mines and the russian retreated regions suffer steady casualties from them.
It will make further aid smaller as some will not want to be a part of it any further. For example Vietnam just declared a virtual alliance with russia over it. They know all to well American “duds” which seem to work quite well when they kill a person there.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 9 2023 15:24 utc | 29
Damn man, you missed a lot.
Remember that exceptional explosion by Khmelnitsky?
Posted by: Thomas | Jul 9 2023 14:56 utc | 21
I totally forgot Thomas.
So many huge detonation.
It’s been memory holed as a msm subject since it occurred also.
Mot a peep!
No screaming and shouting about that toxic cloud of dust from those rather large explosions.
Strange that!
Posted by: jpc | Jul 9 2023 15:25 utc | 30
“The escalation of desperation is happening.
What next?”
jpc,
Ze Regime collapse.
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas | Jul 9 2023 15:26 utc | 31
It appears the NATO summit will reinforce the current status quo. Resources continue to be supplied to the Ukraine military hunta while maintaining non co belligerent status. South Korea is established and after a period of combat cessation the Ukraine military hunta joins NATO. Establishment of a permanent thorn in Russias side with permanent instantaneous WW3 possibility. Once Ukraine gets in NATO they get full bear poking privileges. Will individual security guarantees of some sort be declared outside of the NATO framework?
If so NATO is revealed as a farce as there is no consensus or solidarity with individual rogue members making even more farcical declarations to do as they wish.
NATO can not defeat Russia with conventional weapons. Ukraine is the true reflection of their best effort. Nor can the western countries prevail in a attempted economic isolation of Russia in the presence of BRICS, middle Asia and a Islam finding new economic identity. If genuine the attempt to turn the coup in Ukraine into a long term strangulation of Russia ala Korea model is hopelessly unrealistic as “the west” economic and military strength is way beyond its shelf life. The individual security guarantees will provide insight into the reality of the desire for the alternative to the fast fading military and economic power of USA INC and its pretend NATO- strategic nuclear exchange. Equally pretend is that the people who inhabit the USA have some sort of say in this.
I find arguments that this conflict will be decided one way or another by economic and conventional military rather naive. All parties will escalate to nuclear weapons should they be defeated by economic or conventional military. The only sane path is a negotiated settlement with Russia included not a long term hostile situation. So simple and these resources used for war by both sides could be used to try and help the Ukraine. This seems impossible with the rhetoric. The absence of the food produced by Ukraine will soon take its toll elsewhere.
These creatures swim in a sea of political motive. They know nothing else but power and its acquisition. Words are hollow things to them, empty tools to acquire power. I hope I am wrong but see no indicators I am. Change is coming. They dont have a decade to strangle Russia even if they could. All anyone can hope is they dont choose to blow up the world if they cant own it. In that time is on humanities side. If a genuine attempt is made to put Ukraine on the back burner via the Korea model that might be good news. If on the other hand what we see is increased mechanisms to initiate strategic nuclear exchange- not so good news.
Posted by: sillydog | Jul 9 2023 15:34 utc | 32
Would a written and signed commitment have counted?
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jul 9 2023 14:51 utc | 19
A few years ago, we were having drinks and I mentioned the US violating some treaty. He went on that that wasn’t a violation because of the way the section I cited was written. He was adament. ( Essentially the placement of a comma or some such weasel word ) . A bit of back and forth resulted; it turned out he had negotiated that exact treaty. LOL
Posted by: Exile | Jul 9 2023 15:35 utc | 33
Posted by: unimperator | 7
..Twardy tanks
Tawdry (adjective) Showy but cheap and of poor quality.
Posted by: Rattus | Jul 9 2023 15:43 utc | 34
Any nation that uses cluster munitions, especially outide its own territory, does not deserve to exist.
Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | Jul 9 2023 15:46 utc | 35
I wouldn’t dismiss the cluster bomb tempest – it has potential to undermine the pro-war legitimacy and wake people up.
I’m old enough to remember the impact on public opinion of US napalm in Vietnam.
You never know what straw can break the camels back, it’s a grand titration.
Posted by: bill wolfe | Jul 9 2023 15:48 utc | 36
“Would a written and signed commitment have counted? ”
One might look at the 200 some written and signed treaties with the native peoples of the USA for guidance in this. Hollow words are hollow words. Ink does not give them substance. The implied argument being that they were inferior cultures and what we witnessed was “manifest destiny”. Sound familiar?
Agreements are useless with those who use words as hollow tools to acquire power not a means to co exist.
Posted by: sillydog | Jul 9 2023 16:03 utc | 37
Posted by: bill wolfe | Jul 9 2023 15:48 utc | 34
I agree, I think the cluster munitions is a cluster f**k. Their use go against the habitual stance taken by progressive liberals, at least in Europe. And they come on top of the anti-democratic laws, the nazi insignia, the obvious nato intervention, the forced conscription, the failed sanctions and not least the obvious fiasco of the spring offensive.
My guess is that the back of the liberal camel is stretched pretty thin. Will this be the straw that breaks it? Not impossible.
Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 9 2023 16:09 utc | 38
Interesting statements from Volnya after returning from Turkiye. First that his only combat experience was in Mariupol. Second the whole story about the Americans and the negotiated surrender. But maybe most interesting is his claim of hundreds “senselessly lost” while holed up in Avostal.
While we need to assume that the hardcore Azov guys are always going to be that and will want to kill as many Russians as they can, maybe we shouldn’t assume their loyalty to Zelensky. He’ll probably need to send them off to the front ASAP so that the “heroes of Avostal” hopefully get killed off rather than potentially make trouble for him politically. If any of them feel like they were used by Zelensky they present a serious danger. (Only less so at the front.)
Posted by: Lex | Jul 9 2023 16:19 utc | 39
I had a thought regarding the release of the Azov commanders. Could it be Turkey’s way of decoupling itself from the position of primary NATO intermediary in any potential negotiated settlement? What I mean is, if the US is starting to push for negotiations behind the scenes, the only country in some sense representing a balanced principled position in the NATO camp would have been Turkey — if not for this, they would have had a proven track record of abiding by their agreements reached with the Russians.
Now, even if ROW can be convinced to pressure the Russians into a negotiated settlement, they can’t point to Turkey as a reliable go-between and, subsequently, NATO is locked out of potential future negotiations. This either upends the prospect of a near-term negotiated settlement entirely, or at least acts to limit negotiations to non-NATO participants only. From this pov, this creates some relief for Russia if we assume that they aren’t interested in negotiations at this time, but are being pressured to resume dialogue, as appeared to be the case with the visit of the African delegation. It also undermines direct NATO’s involvement in any effort of conflict resolution.
Posted by: Skiffer | Jul 9 2023 16:19 utc | 40
From reports I’ve seen elsewhere, something like 110 countries have made cluster munitions illegal and declared they would never produce, sell, buy, or use such weapons. Russia, Ukraine, and United States not among them. As I see it, so long as Russia keeps its own cluster munitions instead of destroying them, and doesn’t renounce their use, it has no grounds whatsoever to denounce the U.S. sending them to Ukraine, or complain about Ukraine using them. Make it 111 countries, Russia, then you can complain. But not one minute sooner.
As far as the Azov Nazi bastards that Turkey(ieyiïéÿ) let Ukraine have back, they should have been tried and hanged by DPR before it became part of Russia. Failing that, they should have been sent to Siberia, never to see daylight again. Now that accomplices have helped them escape, the same penalty should apply to them when they’re finally caught.
Posted by: Dalit | Jul 9 2023 16:20 utc | 41
Posted by: Exile | Jul 9 2023 15:35 utc | 31
###############
Male or female, true believer or atheistic nihilist, ego and self-interest usually carry the day.
Regrettably.
The only people I have found that we can sometimes reliably trust are those in our kin group. And America being a patchwork of people with very little in common beyond paper citizenship, are kin to no one, really.
That also makes this multipolar project interesting because the issues with bridging differences are inevitable. Perhaps Russia can lead on that, being a genuinely multi-ethnic civilization, in ways that the Chinese won’t tolerate, and the Indians fail miserably at.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 9 2023 16:22 utc | 42
from MSN news:
Russian Troops ‘Struggling With Poor Morale’ As Ukraine Launches Fresh Bakhmut Assault
Story by Kevin Schofield • 8h ago
Huff Post UK
Posted by: El Oso de Los Llanos | Jul 9 2023 16:24 utc | 43
German president says Berlin should not hamper US’ supplies of cluster munitions to Kiev
German President Frank-Walter Steinmeier said on Sunday that he thinks that Berlin should not be in Washington’s way on the issue of supplies of cluster munitions to Ukraine.
“It is right that such munitions are prohibited by the federal government in Germany and that German is against such supplies,” he said in an interview with the ZDF television channel. “But in the current situation, it (the German government – TASS) cannot be in the United States’ way.” (…)
https://tass.com/world/1644415
Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 9 2023 16:26 utc | 44
Biden defeated Progressives a year ago. The lack of left wing opposition to what we are doing in Ukraine is proof that we were already defeated. Democrats are almost 100% in favor of Buden’s approach, which is the Democraric party celebrating its victory over Progressives.
So we will shut up and regroup for the foreseeable future. My feeling is that our defeat was bad enough that it will be 10+ years before we have even a chance at rebuilding.
Posted by: Woke American | Jul 9 2023 16:29 utc | 45
AFU 128th brigade was withdrawn from Piyatikhatki, replaced by 117 / 118 brigade (these are Nato reserves armed with the T-72E and Twardy tanks)
…
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 9 2023 13:31 utc | 7
Destroyed tanks T-72EA, PT-91 Twardy and armored personnel carrier M113 of the Armed Forces of Ukraine somewhere in the Zaporozhye region. This is the first recorded loss of the PT-91 tank delivered from Poland.
https://t.me/CyberspecNews/35463
Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Jul 9 2023 16:37 utc | 46
“This is the first recorded loss of the PT-91 tank delivered from Poland.”
How nicely they burn.
Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 9 2023 16:39 utc | 47
Any nation that uses cluster munitions, especially outide its own territory, does not deserve to exist.
Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | Jul 9 2023 15:46 utc | 33
ahhh. Paraphrasing Sssullivan.
Q: Hey, thanks, Jake. To follow up on the cluster munitions. Last year in March, the U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations—she described those munitions as, quote, “exceptionally lethal weaponry, which has no place on the battlefield.” So how do you square those comments with this decision? And secondly, has Ukraine provided you with any assurances or guarantees, in terms of their use in civilian areas, that they won’t use them within a certain radius of civilian areas, for example?
SssULLIVAN: So, Ukraine has provided written assurances that it is going to use these in a very careful way that is aimed at minimizing any risk to civilians.
And, by the way, Ukraine—the democratically elected government of Ukraine has every incentive to minimize risk to civilians because it’s their citizens. It’s Ukrainians who they are trying to protect and defend. This is not Ukraine taking these and going and using them in the Middle East or in Southeast Asia or in some faraway land. They’re using them on their territory to defend their territory.
Savvy!
Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 9 2023 16:41 utc | 48
Looks like someone’s trying to provoke a response from RF that can be used to underwrite the formal introduction of NATO into Ukraine.
https://t.me/ZandVchannel/71159
‼️BREAKING
‼️🇺🇦🏴☠️🇬🇧💥🇷🇺 The Armed Forces of Ukraine tried to attack the ☢️Desnogorsk nuclear power plant in the Smolensk region and the military airfield in the Kaluga region with missiles.
‼️🇬🇧🏴☠️💥🇷🇺 These were, presumably, British Storm Shadow missiles – this is indicated by the wreckage that is now being found at the site of their impact. And if this is confirmed, today’s attack will be the first proven case of the use of NATO missiles on Russian territories, recognized by the UN and NATO. Ukraine pledged not to do this.
Both shells were shot down by Russian air defense – in the sky over the village of Bytosh, Bryansk region around 14:00. The first rocket fell in the field, the second – on the territory of the sawmill.
The video shows the consequences of the strike and the impressions of the locals.
Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 9 2023 16:42 utc | 49
The escalation of desperation is happening.
What next?”
jpc,
Ze Regime collapse.
Thomas
Posted by: Thomas | Jul 9 2023 15:26 utc | 29
The sooner the better.
I imagine that we all feel that way here.
Posted by: jpc | Jul 9 2023 16:59 utc | 50
The sooner the better.
I imagine that we all feel that way here.
Posted by: jpc | Jul 9 2023 16:59 utc | 47
###########
I’d rather it be done right, rather than done quickly.
I don’t look forward to revisiting this again and again.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 9 2023 17:05 utc | 51
But maybe most interesting is his claim of hundreds “senselessly lost” while holed up in Avostal.
Posted by: Lex | Jul 9 2023 16:19 utc | 37
Which reminds me.
All those captured Nsto officer’s.
Deffo a Canadian mentioned.
Again not a peep.
Posted by: jpc | Jul 9 2023 17:06 utc | 52
Just read a very illuminating article by a journalist named Luke Harding who writes for the Guardian, about everyday Ukrainians building homemade missiles with a range of more than a hundred kilometers. These do-it-yourself missiles are capable of penetrating well into Russia. So my question is, Why isn’t Russia doing the same? The more I think about it the more Russia’s Special Operation seems like an oligarch-driven war for profit under the pretense of defending a redline of national defense.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jul/09/its-simple-and-cheap-the-volunteers-making-ukraine-trembita-bomb
Posted by: Celtia | Jul 9 2023 17:10 utc | 53
Дмитрий Медведев
Если подтвердится попытка атаки натовскими ракетами
Смоленской (Десногорской) АЭС, необходимо рассматривать сценарий одновременного российского удара по Южно-Украинской АЭС, Ровенской АЭС и Хмельницкой АЭС, а также по ядерным объектам в Восточной Европе. Тут уже нечего стесняться.
Dmitry Medvedev
If an attempt to attack with NATO missiles is confirmed at Smolensk (Desnogorsk) nuclear power plant, it is necessary to consider the scenario of a simultaneous Russian strike on the South Ukrainian nuclear power plant, the Rivne nuclear power plant and the Khmelnytsky nuclear power plant, as well as on nuclear facilities in Eastern Europe. There is nothing to be ashamed of.
Posted by: Citan | Jul 9 2023 17:11 utc | 54
They never send us their best Trolls over the weekend – Celtia, are you a summer intern ?
Posted by: Exile | Jul 9 2023 17:12 utc | 55
Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 9 2023 16:42 utc | 46
Posted by: Citan | Jul 9 2023 17:11 utc | 51
Considering that AFU itself doesn’t probably make those attacks without British decision making and approval. An actual counter-target, or “eye-for-an-eye” target shouldn’t actually be NPP in Ukraine but a NPP in Britain. All of Ukraine can be destroyed but British won’t care until they get punched in the face.
Of course on the other hand, it’s the long game etc. and waiting for stupid enemies to self-destruct. Britain is self-destructing anyway.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 9 2023 17:23 utc | 56
“..a very illuminating article by a journalist named Luke Harding who writes for the Guardian..”
You must be joking.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 9 2023 17:33 utc | 57
sln2002 | Jul 9 2023 16:41 utc | 45
Thanks. What Jake Sullivan said after that is also weird. If what he said is true, there are are now several million unexploded Russian bomblets lying around in civilian areas in Ukraine. It’s remarkable that there’s no verified evidence of that.
(…), let me just say that the use of cluster munitions by Russia in this conflict is completely unacceptable on multiple counts.
First, they are using them to attack a sovereign country in flagrant violation of international law.
Second, they’re using them specifically to strike after civilian targets, not only military targets — also in flagrant violation of international law. And with this weapon system, as well as other weapon systems, we have identified war crimes committed by the Russians.
Third, and critically, there is a big difference between the type of cluster munition being used by Russia and the type that we would provide to Ukraine. As I mentioned before, ours have a maximum 2.5 percent dud rate; the dud rate of the Russian munitions is between 30 and 40 percent.
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 9 2023 17:34 utc | 58
Should have added this part to the end:
And, just so I don’t get this wrong, I will read it to you: The Department of Defense assesses that during the first year of the conflict alone, Russian-fired cluster munitions, deployed from a range of weapon systems, have likely expended tens of millions of submunitions, or bomblets, in Ukraine.
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 9 2023 17:38 utc | 59
Posted by: S | Jul 9 2023 14:07 utc | 13
Thank you S for posting this quote from one of the released Azov commanders. It seems he’s not ready to take orders from Zelensky: he doesn’t want to go back to the front. I wonder if his viewpoint is different after his experience as cannon fodder, then in Turkey for over a year. Anyone know what the Azov prisoners’ conditions were in Turkey? The one quoted seems to acknowledge the U.S. saved his life (along with NATO officers). If I were Zelensky I’d be nervous about these guys. They might have connections with Biden and could easily put together a hit team.
part of translation from S again:
“I’d like to start training reinforcements. My combat experience is limited to the defense of Mariupol, and since then military practice has advanced a lot. All this needs to be mastered. I don’t want to go straight to the front. Perhaps this would be important for propaganda purposes, but we have already been kept for almost a month in the catacombs under Azovstal for propaganda purposes, where we senselessly lost hundreds of our soldiers. And, probably, almost everyone would have died there if not for the intervention of the Americans, who made a deal with the Russians to withdraw their high-ranking officers from the facility in exchange for the capitulation of the garrison…”
Posted by: migueljose | Jul 9 2023 17:49 utc | 60
Canada is silent on US deployment of these child bombs, even though a signatory with 110 other countries to ban them!
Posted by: Arctic | Jul 9 2023 17:50 utc | 61
These do-it-yourself missiles are capable of penetrating well into Russia. So my question is, Why isn’t Russia doing the same?
Posted by: Celtia | Jul 9 2023 17:10 utc | 50
NAFO Concernik asking if article written by paid MI6 asset Luke Harding about homemade rockets should be a model for the Russian army instead of their hypersonic Kinzhals which can reach Lvov.
I don’t laugh often, but I always welcome a good joke when it comes.
Posted by: Lemming | Jul 9 2023 17:50 utc | 62
Zelensky seems quiet about the Cluster bmobs.
If I cared about “my country”, I’d say no thanks to Cluster bmobs.
I guess his country is Israel or the USA.
Posted by: Chaka Khagan | Jul 9 2023 17:51 utc | 63
Posted by: Lex | Jul 9 2023 16:19 utc | 37
just read your post Lex. food for thought
Posted by: migueljose | Jul 9 2023 17:52 utc | 64
I just read the “progressive” media coverage “Dems oppose cluster bombs” narrative.
It smells like a setup.
Biden rescinds decision, then the Ukrainians and US military starts the “Vietnam syndrome” of “one hand tied behind our back” and “politicians stabbed us in the back” when the Russian military victory soon became too obvious to deny or spin.
Posted by: bill wolfe | Jul 9 2023 17:55 utc | 65
Woke American@42
Every time a ‘progressive’ candidate emerges the trolling community, led by the CIA, denounces him as being insufficiently radical, a sheepdog, or a ‘racist.
It happened to Bernie Sanders, of course if he really had been a sheepdog he would have been allowed, indeed encouraged, to gather the largest flock possible together to herd it into the Democratic corrale. Instead potential supporters were told that they were wasting their time-he would never be allowed to win. Its fairly clear that he won the NY State vote in 2016 and was counted out by the machine.
Biden’s presidency has been, on every level a total disaster- he has been revealed as corrupt in every sense. And has having been so for his entire inglorious career (this is a guy who first came to international notice for plagiarising Neil Kinnock’s autobiography, which is about as low as a man can go). Corrupt and ineffective- the tool of the super rich, a not very sharp instrument in the hands of the Merchants of Death. Anathema to the working class which increasingly finds itself on the sharp end of galloping inequality. Millions of Americans are plunging into poverty, most of them unaware of what is happening, homelessness, in the luxurious form of RV Nomadism as well as its more traditional and visible shape, is growing. And as interest rates rise it is likely to increase.
The only reason that there is not a grass roots rebellion within the Democratic party is that the Huey Longs of the era know that the game is totally rigged. And the Jacobins et al are as completely in hock to the Deep State as the media are- compltetely and quite transparently owned by the people who own the internet.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 9 2023 17:56 utc | 66
These do-it-yourself missiles are capable of penetrating well into Russia. So my question is, Why isn’t Russia doing the same?
Posted by: Celtia | Jul 9 2023 17:10 utc | 50
Thanks for the laugh.
Answer is. Russia is not a terrorist nation that has to build missiles in basements.
Posted by: Golddigger | Jul 9 2023 17:57 utc | 67
These do-it-yourself missiles are capable of penetrating well into Russia. So my question is, Why isn’t Russia doing the same?
Posted by: Celtia | Jul 9 2023 17:10 utc | 54
Terrorist groups that have to operate in secret because their country is being occupied can make use of this sort of thing. Roadside bombs, the Improvised Explosive Devices come to mind and apparently have been used with success. In Vietnam they got into making homemade little booby traps intended to damage a trooper who stepped on them. Our army responded by making boots with a metal plate in them so that the foot would not easily be damaged. Otherwise I doubt there is much return in homemade munitions when they don’t have to be built in a clandestine environment. But then building this stuff in a basement would be more fun than volunteering for duty in the army.
Posted by: Jmaas | Jul 9 2023 18:30 utc | 68
“eye-for-an-eye” target shouldn’t actually be NPP in Ukraine but a NPP in Britain. All of Ukraine can be destroyed but British won’t care until they get punched in the face.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 9 2023 17:23 utc | 53
That would have logic but Medvedev didn’t say it. Norway’s best friend loves London too.
Anyway, tg channels are active to say it was not a storm shadow. How these amateurs know such details so soon after the event is not explained. Expect no response for attacks, as usual
Posted by: rk | Jul 9 2023 18:38 utc | 69
The dissent of NATO members against cluster bombs might be fake.
But if true, this seems to imply the US decides on its own, without asking allies for their opinion, and afterwards informs the allieswhat decision has been taken. The special relationship does not seem an exception to this.
Posted by: Passerby | Jul 9 2023 18:40 utc | 70
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 9 2023 17:34 utc | 59
You must have missed the Whose-Autographed-Tochka-Missile-Killed-Kramatorsk caper of ’22. And the Flachette Litter of BUCHA! BUCHA! BUCHA! the month prior. Don’t pay Ssssullivan any mind. It’s the Kirby-content that kills brain cells.
Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 9 2023 18:47 utc | 71
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 9 2023 17:34 utc | 55
The projection is so blatant. 30-40% dud rate is what the report to congress said that US cluster munitions have in real world conditions. Aberdeen got 10% in proving trials with the bomblets hitting a concrete pad. So full of shit.
Posted by: badjoke | Jul 9 2023 19:03 utc | 73
Cluster Munition and Depleated Uranium
Well, this is just another example how the Rules Based Order works out compared to the Law Based Order.
As the Norwegian Prime-minister the current Nato boss Jens Stoltenberg negotiated the ban on cluster munition that was signed by him in the Norwegian capital Oslo.
His Foregn minister was Jonas Gahr Støre, Norway’s current Primeminister who will not critzice the deployment.
I am deeply ashamed over being Norwegian
Posted by: Paul from Norway | Jul 9 2023 19:12 utc | 74
Danger for next 100 years: Cambodian PM urges Ukraine not to use cluster munitions
The supply of cluster munitions to Ukraine will have serious consequences for the country’s civilian population for decades, Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen wrote in a tweet on July 9.
“This will pose a serious threat to Ukrainians for years or even centuries if cluster bombs are used on the territories of Ukraine occupied by Russian forces,” the politician wrote.
Hun Sen recalled Cambodia’s “painful experience” when it was bombarded with American cluster munitions in the 1970s, leading to the death and injury of tens of thousands of civilians.
“It has been half a century since then,” PM Hun Sen wrote.
“At that time, there were simply no means for their clearance. That is why I feel sorry for the Ukrainian people, and I appeal to the United States as the supplier and to Ukraine as the recipient of such munitions not to use these weapons in the war, as the real victims will be the civilian population of Ukraine.”
“>https://english.nv.ua/nation/cambodia-pm-urges-ukraine-not-to-use-cluster-munitions-ukraine-war-50337647.html
Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 9 2023 19:18 utc | 75
I particularly enjoyed Mr Harding’s second paragraph:
“Welcome to the Trembita, also known as the “people’s missile”. The prototype is Ukraine’s 21st-century answer to the V-1 flying bomb, or doodlebug, the long-range missile used by Nazi Germany during the second world war against targets in south-east England.”
Nazis using shitty missiles to strike indiscriminately against the Allies 80 years on, but this time the Nazis are the good guys – right Luke?
Posted by: Aelfsige | Jul 9 2023 19:19 utc | 76
Troll posts article claiming Russia has used 10m cluster munitions already. Asks, ” if true…”
10 million cluster munitions, not a single video showing one used by Russia…
They must be cloaked cluster munitions, indicating a secret Klingon alliance.
Troll got his crap booted. Bye “Brandon”.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 9 2023 19:21 utc | 77
Apollyon | Jul 9 2023 16:26 utc | 45
What an immoral scum. As foreign minister (Social Democrats!), Steinmeier was the person who signed the agreement against cluster bombs on behalf of Germany.
He also signed the agreement between Yanukovych and the Western-sponsored “opposition” (including the fascist Tyagnibok), only to have forgotten it the day after, when this “opposition” broke the agreement and he recognized the coup government. His refusal to visit the scene of the crime a few days after the Odessa massacre amounted to a declaration that the Kiev government was free to do as it pleased. – Along with Angela Merkel, Steinmeier is the one who didn’t get in the way of the US when the coup was staged in Kiev in 2014 – on the contrary, he eagerly helped.
None of today’s misery would have existed at all if he had made different decisions back then.
Since then, Western willingness to resort to criminal measures and subservience to the worst warmongers have steadily increased at the same rate.
Free after: RT OpEd (in German)
IN contrast, Cambodian Prime Minister Hun Sen urged Ukraine today not to use cluster bombs. “It would be the greatest danger for Ukrainians for… up to a hundred years if cluster bombs are used” Hun Sen tweeted. – US cluster munitions dropped in the early 1970s has left tens of thousands maimed or killed. “It has been more than half a century. There have been no means to destroy them all yet,” Hun Sen added. His country still grapples with deadly war remnants.
Source: ChannelNewsAsia
(I guess I understand why he did not appeal to the US to deliver these cluster bombs, they still owe him and the world official and satisfactory explanations why they used them in Cambodia and why they attacked this country in the first place. William Blume’s oultlines on that matter are just a starting point. Personal consequences, reparations, apologies…?).
Posted by: OttoE | Jul 9 2023 19:23 utc | 78
bevin@67….east or west, we all live under some form of Corporate Dictatorship. All doing business with each other and some times, as with the SloMo, kingly profits are made from war. I’d imagine undertakers are doing quite well also.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 9 2023 19:26 utc | 79
Posted by: Celtia | Jul 9 2023 17:10 utc | 54
Ah, the noted liar and wannabe spook Luke Harding?
Posted by: airstrip1 | Jul 9 2023 19:27 utc | 80
As I’ve said since the US invasion of Iraq, there is no such thing as “international law” that applies to war.
Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Jul 9 2023 14:55 utc | 23
“Silent enim leges inter Arma”
Posted by: Helmuth von Moltke | Jul 9 2023 19:39 utc | 81
Posted by: Catilina | Jul 9 2023 14:21 utc | 18
“When you throw stuff into the air it may hit something.”
Yes – in fact it WILL hit something. If it doesn’t hit something on the way up, it will certainly hit something on the way down – the Internet offers many examples of people killed and injured by small arms projectiles falling back to earth after shooting into the sky.
This “home made flak” looks like a subtle extension of Ukraine’s well established policy of killing its citizens with misfired and malfunctioning air defences.
Posted by: Badger | Jul 9 2023 19:41 utc | 82
@S | Jul 9 2023 14:07 utc | 15
almost everyone would have died there if not for the intervention of the Americans, who made a deal with the Russians to withdraw their high-ranking officers from the facility in exchange for the capitulation of the garrison…
In Syria literally thousands of NATO special forces operatives were captured during various sieges. Everyone thought Assad was going to subject them to Arab justice, which means eventual death, but Putin went and persuaded Assad to let them go in various deals. Russia was only intent in preventing Syria’s collapse to the NATO irregulars, not in ending the hostilities in Syria, hence the eventual active stalemate as exists in Syria now.
While its nice to see that Russia is using the same strategy in Ukraine as was used in Syria, meaning there is continuity and agreement at the command levels, this does not bode well for an end to the hostilities in Ukraine because all Putin wants in Ukraine is an active stalemate as well. Putin would therefore allow American / NATO forces into Ukraine but would not attack them, just like in Syria. So this could end up as a multi decade long war unless the collapse already evident in Germany, France, Denmark, etc happens a bit more quickly and thoroughly.
The poor armed forces of Russia, they are frothing at the bit to go head to head against the Americans and NATO, yet their political leadership wants to win this conflict without such actions. Unfortunately the army has to take its orders from the politicians, and this is the correct way of running matters. Putin should at least order his troops to make babies on each trip home as part of their military duties, and keep track of their efforts: maybe given medals out for success, the more success the more medals, else the troops are going to go crazy preparing for and waiting for a conflict that is never going to happen. Heck, the Russian public should also be given the same orders, as they are frothing at the bit as well.
Posted by: gT | Jul 9 2023 19:42 utc | 83
@OttoE
“What an immoral scum.”
Yes, he is.
Steinmeier was chief-of-staff under Chancellor Gerhard Schröder while Kurnaz was being tortured and interrogated at Guantanamo between 2002 and 2006. According to a later European Parliament investigation, Steinmeier turned down a US offer to release the inmate back to Germany as early as 2002, when the CIA and the country’s intelligence agency, the BND, knew he was innocent.
“>https://www.dw.com/en/steinmeiers-guantanamo-scandal-returns-to-haunt-him/a-36414978
Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 9 2023 19:43 utc | 84
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 9 2023 19:26 utc | 80
Wars are far more complex than “they just making money”. It discounts the hundreds of other reasons for their eruption, discounts human passions, and creates a super complex theoretical conspiracy that “they are secretly all in it together”, as if “all in it together” being twisted so far as to now meaning war, and its catastrophic economic consequences, especially for the loser sometimes, somehow means “working together”.
I assure you, China and the soviet Union did not supply assistance to Vietnam vs the Americans “for their filthy lucre”. If wars were for making money on both sides, why not just sell and fight for the highest bidder? Then there would be no war at all, just bidding wars, and the USA would win every time.
This is not some secret back – door deal between Russian arms makers and NATO arms makers to make a lot of money. Get real. NATO exists and has always existed to defeat Russia, and Russia knows it.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 9 2023 19:48 utc | 85
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 9 202
..east or west, we all live under some form of Corporate Dictatorship.
True, except for china. The CCP seems to have their corporate entities firmly in hand. Certainly no utopia, but a significant advance on the western model of, as you say, corporate dictatorship, which has no future.
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 9 2023 19:56 utc | 86
@Posted by: gT | Jul 9 2023 19:42 utc | 84
Those thousands of executed NATO special forces (who were helping the “moderate” rebels against the Devil Assad!) would have been splashed across the Western media as a cause celebre for massive NATO intervention in Syria. The Russians understand who they are dealing with, and the relative strengths and weaknesses. They know that victory against a powerful opponent that possesses WMD is not a simple thing.
This is not a computer game, and is part of a much bigger strategic game. Russia is lucky to have a Putin capable of managing this complexity. The few Nazi Nutters released from Turkey will not affect the results on the battlefield, but are a great reason for Russia to pull out of the grain deal. The West would love Russia to go full Mad Max in Ukraine, as it would remove much of its legitimacy with the rest of the world and leave an ungovernable and destroyed Ukraine for Russia in a pyrrhic victory.
And, just so I don’t get this wrong, I will read it to you: The Department of Defense assesses that during the first year of the conflict alone, Russian-fired cluster munitions, deployed from a range of weapon systems, have likely expended tens of millions of submunitions, or bomblets, in Ukraine.
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 9 2023 17:38 utc | 60
… very bad for real estate value …
Anyway …
Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 9 2023 20:02 utc | 88
And, just so I don’t get this wrong, I will read it to you: The Department of Defense assesses that during the first year of the conflict alone, Russian-fired cluster munitions, deployed from a range of weapon systems, have likely expended tens of millions of submunitions, or bomblets, in Ukraine.
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 9 2023 17:38 utc | 60
… very bad for real estate value …
Anyway …
Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 9 2023 20:02 utc | 89
The cluster munitions don’t make much sense for an advancing army, though Kiev is willing to clear minefields with infantry. I’ll reiterate that real reason is the west being out of 155mm conventional shells (at least to the point where there are none to spare). . .
Posted by: Lex | Jul 9 2023 14:59 utc | 25
Which makes me wonder, will an artillery round filled with cluster munitions have any effect on a tank or armored vehicle. A high explosive round can destroy a tank in a direct hit, but hundreds of small grenades? Lethal near humans, but heavy armor? Perhaps someone more knowledgeable can weigh in on this. Also, these are 155mm shells. I assume they can be fired by M777, and some other western artillery pieces, but not Soviet made guns (152 mm).
SssULLIVAN: So, Ukraine has provided written assurances that it is going to use these in a very careful way that is aimed at minimizing any risk to civilians.
Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 9 2023 16:41 utc | 49
And the very next post, anon 2020 points out that the Ukies attacked a Russian NPP with Storm Shadow missiles. Yes, those Ukies are very careful how they use those weapons provided to them. Very, very careful.
Posted by: Mike R | Jul 9 2023 20:04 utc | 90
Regarding the release of Azovian shitbirds, as usual with the Turkey-Russia relationship, there is a public veneer over a quieter reality.
Appearing to annoy Russia buys Turkey some more credibility at the NATO summit. Meanwhile, for Russia it’s much easier to kill the shitbirds in Ukraine than it would be in Turkey. And the shitbirds might not be such a big benefit to Zelensky’s regime.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jul 9 2023 20:07 utc | 91
@Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 9 2023 19:56 utc | 87
“True, except for china. The CCP seems to have their corporate entities firmly in hand. Certainly no utopia, but a significant advance on the western model of, as you say, corporate dictatorship, which has no future.”
Xi was chosen specifically to do this after the excesses of the go-go years (1990-2010), and has been regularly beating corporate leaders and billionaires until they “get” who the boss is (the CCP representing the interests of the Chinese people). China is Marxist with a social-market economy not state-capitalist. Growth is being driven toward true development rather than rentier activities, and wealth and income being better balanced. The Chinese economy is already significantly larger than the US in PPP terms and per capita at PPP is over US$20k.
Another decade or so of 5%+ growth per year and it will be at US$40k, with that GDP consisting much more of real beneficial to the many output rather than rentier profiteering masquerading as output. The Western elites know that they have a decade at best before they are fully defeated and that defeat is blazingly obvious to all, hence their desperate attempts at stemming the inevitable tide – just like King Canute.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 9 2023 17:23 utc | 57
Agreed, crazy situation. Limited retaliatory strikes on military targets seems to be the limit, and still appears to be the best option.
Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 9 2023 20:18 utc | 93
I’m not sure if b normally links to this blog, but in case he doesn’t:
Russia, US exchange glances as Prigozhin heads for Moscow
I don’t agree with everything Bhadrakumar writes, but his perspective is always interesting, at least to me.
Posted by: Comacho in Chief | Jul 9 2023 20:23 utc | 94
USA/Ukraine openly escalate to cluster munitions, solidifying their historical record as terrorist nations, but why — who benefits? So far as I can tell, the only coherent excuse I’ve heard is “because we’re running out of other ammunition.” Really?
Because we have to do something — though we’re incapable of forethought, of considering whether the thing we do only makes matters worse. It’s another incremental step, after going ahead with depleted uranium, up the ladder toward complete thoughtlessness — practically a Winston Smith re-education exercise for the whole polity.
We get to see a few momentary, pathetic bleats of principled opposition, here and there. Remember principles? We get to watch principles blowin’ in the wind, like dandelion blossoms.
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jul 9 2023 20:25 utc | 95
In Germany every couple of months they still discover unexploded WWII Fliegerbomben . 80 years later. Steinmeier should be ashamed of himself.
The Cambodian is correct in his stark warning about cluster munitions. Good one, honorable fellow.,
Posted by: Exile | Jul 9 2023 20:27 utc | 96
As well as German president Steinmeier saying that the government cannot stop the USA from delivering cluster munition, the German government spokesman Steffen Hebestreit said this (machine translation from German)
“Ukraine is using ammunition to protect its own civilian population. It’s about a use by its own government to liberate its own territory,”
“So we should also remember that Russia has already used cluster munitions on a large scale in a war of aggression against Ukraine that violates international law.”
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 9 2023 20:35 utc | 97
Lex | Jul 9 2023 16:19 utc | 40–
Thanks for your comment and for S’s contribution that led to it. Politically those “heroes” are clearly threats which is why they’re back in Ukraine. Think about Germany sending Lenin to Russia for very similar purposes. Recall Zelensky cancelled presidential elections; who better to confront him on that then those men?
Another decade or so of 5%+ growth per year and it will be at US$40k, with that GDP consisting much more of real beneficial to the many output rather than rentier profiteering masquerading as output.
Posted by: Roger | Jul 9 2023 20:08 utc | 93
I try not to wade into the economic debates because they really bore me and never end and somehow end up boiling down to religious-type arguments and name calling rather than an exchange of objective views, but please understand that:
1. Many countries (including all of western ones) can generate just about any growth rate they want–all they need to do is rack up lots of debt to achieve their targeted growth rate. In other words, so long as a country uses GDP as an input rather than an output, this is a meaningless number. China has increased its debt to GDP over the last decade from ~200% to 300%, and this is simply unsustainable.
2. GDP measures economic activity, not growth. In other words, it does not necessarily translate into improved current or future standards of living
3. China is basically growing by subsidizing its exports. In other words, China’s growth requires that the rest of the world can accommodate what it produces. This is really important to understand, especially now, because it is becoming an increasingly tenuous proposition.
Take it for what it’s worth.
Posted by: Comacho in Chief | Jul 9 2023 20:38 utc | 99
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 9 2023 20:35 utc | 98
Fixed link (hopefully) of machine translation from German
Posted by: Brendan | Jul 9 2023 20:43 utc | 100