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July 8, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-162
Comments
RT says that Ukraine is pulling troops from area near ZNPP.
false flag imminent, or just normal flow of war??
Posted by: Oldcutlas | Jul 8 2023 15:20 utc | 1
Responding to yesterday’s comments here: Note how the knee-jerk reaction to denunciations of giving US cluster bombs to the Kiev regime is “Russia uses them too!”
What happened to “That’s whataboutism!”?
I wish I had a dollar for every time I have pointed out American hypocrisy and was told “You can’t talk about that. That is whataboutism.”
Must be the rules-based order. The rules change with the atrocities, depending on who commits them.
Posted by: wagelaborer | Jul 8 2023 15:25 utc | 2
Most days now. I am in awe. I am in awe of Russian restraint. This gives all of us something to be thankful for. So take it and spread it. As to Ukraine just because they arent using chambers or camps its no less holocaustish. Where are all the never againers? Nukes. I am of the opinion that any nukes will b in ME theater as the Ukraine is obviously being purposefuly depopulated
Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 8 2023 15:31 utc | 3
@ |2
“Whataboutism” is the distress-cry of an exposed hypocrite.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jul 8 2023 15:34 utc | 4
Slavyangrad reports ….
” Captured commanders of the Mariupol garrison – Denis Prokopenko, Svyatoslav Palamar, Serhiy Volynsky, Oleg Khomenko, and Denis Shlega, who were captured, are returning to Ukraine from Turkey.
The video with them is published by the office of Zelensky. They flew home with him while he was leaving Istanbul.
These are the commanders of Azov and the 36th Marine Brigade, who were captured in Mariupol in May 2022.
Later they were handed over to Turkey, where they were under house arrest – such was the agreement with the Russian Federation. Russia has not yet commented on this.
That Ukraine has a right join NATO. ”
Erdogan is a bit of a gangster and plays both sides to get everything he can. Somebody you would never really be able to trust if your life depended on it.
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 8 2023 15:36 utc | 5
Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has decided to transfer the commanders of Azov (terrorist group banned in Russia, ed) to Ukrainian leader Vladimir Zelensky. As previously agreed, these people would remain in Turkey until the end of the armed conflict. Among the commanders transferred are Denis Prokopenko, Svyatoslav Palamar, Sergei Volynsky, Oleg Khomenko and Denis Shlega
Posted by: A.cagliostro | Jul 8 2023 15:37 utc | 6
Posted by: Oldcutlas | Jul 8 2023 15:20 utc | 1
I beleive they were told to back away, now that the rhetoric has shifted from a “nulcear false flag coming soon from Russia” to a nothing burger. Ukraines western masters told them to back off, they’re backing off. My opinion.
Posted by: madmarc | Jul 8 2023 15:39 utc | 7
“Whataboutism” is the distress-cry of an exposed hypocrite.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jul 8 2023 15:34 utc | 4
Perfect! I must remember that one.
Posted by: wagelaborer | Jul 8 2023 15:42 utc | 8
Azov-Nazi-scum returns home:
https://twitter.com/KyivPost/status/1677678795900215301
https://euromaidanpress.com/2023/07/08/ukrainian-mariupol-defenders-returned-to-ukraine-from-turkey-after-internment/
Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 8 2023 15:46 utc | 9
Erdogan shows it is a war of the elites, like every war before it. It is the lower classes that always suffer.
Even the latest Soyuz launch had western satellite’s in it apparently. Even one from the UK. It’s all about the munnie. Keep the Money flowing to the elites, even though those who you take money from have declared war against you.
I’m about to give up on this war for this very reason. The upper classes always win and what will be, will be. Neither side deserves the lower class support.
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 8 2023 15:49 utc | 10
It’s getting harder and harder to avoid the conclusion that Putin is just not willing to prosecute this war seriously. The Mr. Nice Guy stuff is all leading to some very predictable stabs in the back, and if this goes on too long, one of those stabs is going to prove fatal.
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 8 2023 15:57 utc | 11
soyuz which sends british satellites into orbit without counting the other western ones, gas and oil which transits freely through ukraine and poland to feed companies that produce weapons to be used against the russians erdocane which shoots down russian planes and supplies weapons to the ukronazis up to freeing azov criminals
but how much are the Russian and American governments taking the piss with us since they are all ass and shirt in the face of those who die
Posted by: A.cagliostro | Jul 8 2023 16:02 utc | 12
Have cluster bombs ever been used in an offensive operation?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cluster_munition#History_of_use
The U.S. and Israel dropped a massive number of cluster bombs in Vietnam, Camb odiam, Laos, and southern Lebanon on territory it never had to occupy.
I can see using cluster bombs to thwart attacks but looks like a bad weapon if you plan to take territory because of the active duds it leaves behind. It’s a borderline area denial weapon. How is this going to help Ukraine’s counter-offensive?
On the bright side, when this war is finally over, the U.S. will blame every cluster bomb related injury on Russia (sarcasm).
Posted by: Christian Chuba | Jul 8 2023 16:04 utc | 13
What happened to “That’s whataboutism!”?
Above Posted by: wagelaborer | Jul 8 2023 15:25 utc | 2
Much more to the point is “What happened to ‘Where’s your evidence for Russia having used these at all in its SMO?'” The only alleged evidence I’ve heard of was a video that turned out to be of Ukraine having used them which the U.S. military (which has shown rather honorable objectivity about such claims against Russia at least twice in marked contrast to our politicians, media, and intelligence agencies) said was not credible.
Is it just my imagination or is this thread getting off to a less-than-auspicious start?
Posted by: StirThePot | Jul 8 2023 16:09 utc | 14
Mr. Putin is proving to be not a wartime consigliere. He is Russia’s own Tom Hagan.
Meanwhile, Recep “Sollazzo” Erdogan is fomenting a war between the Families for his own personal gain. He owns the airfields in Turkey where they grow the poppy, and the factories in mNATO where they process it into copium.
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 8 2023 16:12 utc | 15
Posted by: Oldcutlas | Jul 8 2023 15:20 utc | 1
Bar flies doing the false flag routine again. Last time we had a date for when it didn’t happen: July 5. On what day is it not going to happen this time?
Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 8 2023 16:12 utc | 16
Seems confirmed that Ukranazistan has evacuated Pyatikhatki and other “liberated” settlements it captured during Ye Olde Greate Springe Counteroffensive. Great going, man!
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jul 8 2023 16:12 utc | 17
Regarding Turkey, Ukraine and NATO: the word Erdogan used was ‘deserves’. In the world of international politics that is a very weak statement. In practice it means that there is no way in he** they will ever be admitted in to the club.
Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 8 2023 16:25 utc | 18
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jul 8 2023 16:12 utc | 17
The AFU 128th brigade that was tasked in expanding bridgehead near Piyatikhatki was depleted in that area and they had nothing other to replace it. No choice other than abandon area.
With that also goes any hope for ZNPP (which is probably why they gave up on the photo op / false flag plan for ZNPP a week ago).
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 8 2023 16:34 utc | 19
Azov are free! Thank you Mr. Putin. Your restraint is saving the world. You are a great Christian man.
Cluster munitions now for Kiev. This is a joke. Russia will take them out and might even send a few missiles into Poland. The 404 is desperate!
Zelensky visited Snake Island and mocked Russia’s inability to hit him. Haha. He did it in a little boat. He is scared.
Truth: Putin and Friends continue doing their job. Slowly suffocating Russia. Never escalating. Russia does not have 10-years for this embarrassment to continue. Supplies and people move freely in Ukraine. US politicians go to the center of Kiev at a pre-planned time and mock Putin. Erdogan stabs him in the back.
Posted by: Sergei | Jul 8 2023 16:42 utc | 20
Russia is getting a mothelode of information on the US-NATO militaary capabilities from this conflict.
The West is too about Russia but they will mostly analyze it emotionally, whereas Russia will analyze it logically.
Russia must play it cool because, unless you haven’t noticed, the West is on its way to relative obscurity.
Posted by: Drapetomaniac | Jul 8 2023 17:13 utc | 21
which comedian thought of sending cluster munitions to try to save a cluster fk?
Posted by: hankster | Jul 8 2023 17:17 utc | 22
To Those who believe Moscow is pussy footing around, note that The Ukrainian Civil War is a mere sideshow. This Global Conflict will be won or lost thru the success or failure of De-dollarization. On the de-dollarization front, Eurasisa is extremely agreesive.
For example, yuan share of global trade in last 12 months – went from 1% to 5%. 5% might not seem like much, but it’s the pace of change that’s important. Also note, USD dropped to 47% of Central Bank Reserves ( down from like 80% 15 years ago )
The war ends when Washington can no longer sell debt to fund it.
Posted by: Exile | Jul 8 2023 17:17 utc | 23
The war ends when Washington can no longer sell debt to fund it.
Posted by: Exile | Jul 8 2023 17:17 utc | 23
————
Yes. When other countries decide they would rather have currencies other than the USD. Ie rubles or yuan for gas and oil.
Posted by: financial matter | Jul 8 2023 17:28 utc | 24
@financial matter #24
Heck, all they’d have to do is offer a slightly discounted price for CNY rather than USD purchases and the demand for yuan would skyrocket as much or as little as they wanted. The US has to offer ever higher interest rates to get folks to hold USD..
Posted by: BillB | Jul 8 2023 17:32 utc | 25
Given that de-dollarization and the construction of multipolar institutions will take time, I am increasingly convinced that many of the commenters complaining about Russia going slow are actually working for ‘the west’.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jul 8 2023 17:37 utc | 26
From Telegram:
“Of course, taking into account the fact that there is a Russian guard with light weapons at the station itself, and there is an open nuclear waste storage facility on the territory of the station (not to mention the station’s aggregates), open mining of the station would look like the height of stupidity from the Russian Federation, since even a simple shelling could, among other things, lead to the detonation of explosives, increasing damage to the station and damage to the Russian military. Therefore, it is clear that no one has mined the station.
But the perimeter, on the contrary, is reinforced with anti-personnel mines, reacting to the threats of landing and seizing the station. Without heavy means of engineering mine clearance, any landing in the area of the NPP will have serious problems with overcoming unmarked minefields.
Hence the interest shown in the minefields around the NPP, which of course cannot pose a threat to the station, but pose a great threat to any landing. Therefore, these throw-ins are not only routine trash propaganda about the fact that “Russia wants to blow up the NPP”, but also an attempt to probe the possibility of obtaining at least partial access through the IAEA to maps of minefields in the area of the station.
https://t.me/readovkaru/3732
”
Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 8 2023 17:51 utc | 27
“Whataboutism” is the distress-cry of an exposed hypocrite.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jul 8 2023 15:34 utc | 4
########
Too true. Their use of preferred code words tends to give them away.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 8 2023 17:55 utc | 28
Most days now. I am in awe. I am in awe of Russian restraint. This gives all of us something to be thankful for. So take it and spread it.
Posted by: Tannenhouser | Jul 8 2023 15:31 utc | 3
#########
Sadly, patience and restraint are not virtues in the modern era, particularly in the West.
If the Russians weren’t so patient and enduring, many of the Western regulars at the bar may be feeling the kinetic effects of war touching their lives, and the lives of their loved ones.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 8 2023 17:59 utc | 29
Figleaf23@26 ….ending the conflict asap, saving human lives….before it spills outside the conflict zone and engulfs the ROW more so than it already has…..that makes people western agents….. that’s just dumbfuckery.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 8 2023 18:00 utc | 30
CounterPunch posted a transcript of a discussion amongst western legal scholars – including Richard Falk – regarding possible means to negotiate a settlement in Ukraine. The most promising approach, which would come closest to the interests of both sides, is essentially a new version of the Minsk agreement. This has been apparent for some time, and always results in a degree of dissembling by western commentators due to the fact it was Ukraine, with the support of its sponsors, which ultimately rejected this agreement and prepared to “take back” Donbass and Crimea by force of arms.
https://www.counterpunch.org/2023/07/07/why-isnt-there-peace-in-ukraine-a-counterpunch-colloquy-in-geneva/
Western “experts” also don’t seem to understand that Crimea was not a simple land grab, and that the Russians were never going to abandon their naval facilities let alone pass them over to NATO. The western response appears to be: they “have to” due to international law. Well…it still will not happen.If the west chooses to participate in a war to change the circumstances then such is already happening, but the idea this was “unprovoked” is just stupid.
Last year, left commentator David Swanson drew up a list of measures the Russians could have enacted short of military operations. One of these consisted of allowing Ukraine, with its assembled build-up of forces on the borders, to attack Donbass and Crimea in February 2022 and thereby concede to Russia the “moral high ground”. That is also just stupid – what responsible power would allow itself to be put on the back foot like that and for what? several dozen votes in the UN General Assembly? Delusions run deep in the west’s commentariat.
https://davidswanson.org/30-nonviolent-things-russia-could-have-done-and-30-nonviolent-things-ukraine-could-do/
Posted by: jayc | Jul 8 2023 18:00 utc | 31
@Christian Cuba
Very good point. Cluster bomb use would indicate they’re ceding that territory.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 8 2023 18:01 utc | 32
It’s getting harder and harder to avoid the conclusion that Putin is just not willing to prosecute this war seriously. The Mr. Nice Guy stuff is all leading to some very predictable stabs in the back, and if this goes on too long, one of those stabs is going to prove fatal.
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 8 2023 15:57 utc | 11
##############
I find your concern for Mr. Putin touching. I always appreciate when someone posts their sincere and heartfelt concerns.
You know, concern posters. God Bless them.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 8 2023 18:03 utc | 33
In response to StirThePot@14,
If the Russians did use them, it would have been in a mine-laying configuration as an area denial weapon to prevent Ukraine from crossing the grey zone, back when parts of the frontline were still relatively undermanned and vulnerable to breakthroughs by small groups with light vehicles. I remember at least hearing about Russia using artillery dispersed PFM-1S butterfly mines some time last year, from Russian war correspondents, though I can’t remember where. It was emphasized in the report that these mines were set to automatically disarm themselves once their time was up.
For large area destruction, the only real target would be a long trench sections, for which cluster munitions would be comparatively inefficient compared to the thermobaric weapons Russia uses. Neither side is particularly keen on gathering large formations of men and machines in the field but, even supposing that they did, there would still probably be better alternatives for maximizing enemy casualties than the use of cluster bombs.
I would think that the observed preference for precise strikes delivering a measured payload demonstrates that this approach is simply a more practical and effective option for must situations, particularly when the potential targets for such a strike are few and far between. A cluster munition, even when accurate, would disperse its destructive potential over a wider area, thus effectively softening the effect of a direct hit compared to a conventional munition, making it unreliable.
Posted by: Skiffer | Jul 8 2023 18:04 utc | 34
To Those who believe Moscow is pussy footing around, note that The Ukrainian Civil War is a mere sideshow. This Global Conflict will be won or lost thru the success or failure of De-dollarization. On the de-dollarization front, Eurasisa is extremely agreesive.
For example, yuan share of global trade in last 12 months – went from 1% to 5%. 5% might not seem like much, but it’s the pace of change that’s important. Also note, USD dropped to 47% of Central Bank Reserves ( down from like 80% 15 years ago )
The war ends when Washington can no longer sell debt to fund it.
Posted by: Exile | Jul 8 2023 17:17 utc | 23
###########
This is a deeper angle, I don’t think many consider. I’d almost argue that the SMO has become a smokescreen for the background economic re-alignment, kind of like Cocaine in the WH has become the latest obsession to distract and avoid more pressing issues.
De-dollarization will not only change and re-orient the world, it will solve many problems. Think about all of the evil in the world that is only possible with the ability to debauch the global currency. Very few of these agendas and rackets will hold up if they have to pay their bills in real time.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 8 2023 18:07 utc | 35
Erdogan was always a double-dealing eel.
Slippery and hard to catch. With some nasty teeth as well.
The mistake was ever trusting him in the first place.
On the bright side, it looks like Ye Olde Cuckster-offensive has collapsed. An entire division was nearly wiped out at Pretty-hockey (phonetic spelling as I’m too lazy to look it up.)
Any survivors abandoned their positions and left the town to the Russians. Weeks of battles and hundreds of dead men, all for nothing.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 8 2023 18:09 utc | 36
The war ends when Washington can no longer sell debt to fund it.
Posted by: Exile | Jul 8 2023 17:17 utc | 23
Yes, and Russia having more success on the battlefield would greatly accelerate its de-dollarization efforts, so this argument isn’t quite the trump card you think it is.
Besides, economic hardships are vastly overstated as a constraint on belligerent nations in a time of war. Nations will continue to fight each other long after financial prudence would have dictated that they seek peace, sometimes for years.
There is no longer any solid, concrete, obvious reason for Russia to be slow-walking this thing, and Erdogan’s recent betrayals only underscore that point. Slow-walking does more harm than good now.
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 8 2023 18:09 utc | 37
Whataboutism was never a logical fallacy. And the legal principles of jurisprudence and precedence are based around it.
It’s only a leftist dodge to their ever changing narrrative.
Posted by: Meh | Jul 8 2023 18:11 utc | 38
Erdogan was always a double-dealing eel.
Slippery and hard to catch. With some nasty teeth as well.
The mistake was ever trusting him in the first place.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 8 2023 18:09 utc | 36
##############
Playing both sides is the oldest geo-political game in the book. Erdogan is a genius at it. No one really knows whose side he is on, but they all want him on their side. That gives him outsized power in international diplomacy.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 8 2023 18:17 utc | 39
“Whataboutism” is justified if one intends to appeal to a universally applicable standard of fairness.
Whataboutism is offensive and insidious when used as a figleaf over one’s own evil behavior.
Posted by: malenkov | Jul 8 2023 18:19 utc | 40
@ jayc | Jul 8 2023 18:00 utc | 31
I was so tempted to say that I stopped reading after the first word of your comment, but I read on and appreciate the confirmation of the cited website’s uselessness.
Posted by: malenkov | Jul 8 2023 18:22 utc | 41
” Captured commanders of the Mariupol garrison – Denis Prokopenko, Svyatoslav Palamar, Serhiy Volynsky, Oleg Khomenko, and Denis Shlega, who were captured, are returning to Ukraine from Turkey.
The video with them is published by the office of Zelensky. They flew home with him while he was leaving Istanbul.
These are the commanders of Azov and the 36th Marine Brigade, who were captured in Mariupol in May 2022.
Later they were handed over to Turkey, where they were under house arrest – such was the agreement with the Russian Federation. Russia has not yet commented on this.
That Ukraine has a right join NATO. ”
Erdogan is a bit of a gangster and plays both sides to get everything he can. Somebody you would never really be able to trust if your life depended on it.
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 8 2023 15:36 utc | 5
—————————————————————-
Erdogan cannot appear to take sides. If he openly moves too close to Russia (Putin) he will be removed from office in a color revolution.
People should remember that the US/NATO has two large military bases in Turkiye:
Incirlik Air Base which houses the United States Air Force, Turkish Air Force and the British Air Force, and it is a NATO base as well. It is situated in Incirlik which is on the eastern side of Adana, Turkiye and 35 miles away from the Mediterranean Sea, and the Izmir Air Force Base in Izmir.
It was announced that Putin will visit Erdogan in Turkiye next month. What other NATO country is allowing visits from President Putin. Putin has also exchanged neo-Nazis fighters for Russian POW’s as well. And I suspect that Putin has approved the release these Mariupol garrison – Azov Nazis as a jester to the US and its butt boy Zelensky.
Posted by: Ed | Jul 8 2023 18:23 utc | 42
Yes, and Russia having more success on the battlefield would greatly accelerate its de-dollarization efforts, so this argument isn’t quite the trump card you think it is.
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 8 2023 18:09 utc | 37
############
More success on the battlefield may encourage a NATO intervention, instead of bleeding the West dry over time as has been happening. Once NATO intervenes, a nuclear exchange becomes much more likely
Sometimes, to get the total victory, you have to play the battle slow, to allow the enemy to exhaust himself ala Muhammad Ali vs George Foreman. Again, no one respects patience these days. Putin is doing something most people don’t have the ability to do. To outlast his opponent on his terms.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 8 2023 18:25 utc | 43
Figleaf23 | Jul 8 2023 17:37 utc | 26
What is the connection between a forever war and better de-dollarization? A very long smo, stuck inside Russia like today, and a delayed brics move to a new currency (like Putin suggested last year) won’t attract others to the club. And without strong military support for anyone who joins the club, nothing will last. A little civil war, a few drones, a few tomahawks and re-dollarization will appear if there’s no army. Look at Sudan. Only a few weeks then war and bye bye naval base, at least for the near future.
Fans of a long smo on yt are from natostan or from Ukr
Posted by: rk | Jul 8 2023 18:25 utc | 44
The Kremlin seems to be angry about the return of the Azov commanders to Ukraine.
Peskov gave a statement saying both Turkey and Ukraine violated the agreement according to which they were to remain in Turkey until the end of the conflict.Violating the agreement doesn’t do anyone any credit, he said.
https://ria.ru/20230708/vozvraschenie-1883008500.html
https://ria.ru/20230708/dogovorennosti-1883014503.html
Posted by: JB | Jul 8 2023 18:25 utc | 45
https://sputnikglobe.com/20230708/what-motivates-mercs-to-fight-in-ukraine-and-how-much-do-they-get-paid-1111754318.html
I have been skeptical about the numbers of mercenaries being much exaggerated and this tends to confirm it. Only a hundred French? At this rate, giving security guarantees to Ukraine sounds like a joke.Nobody is stopping guys from NATO countries from joining Ukraine in battle.
Posted by: Eighthman | Jul 8 2023 18:25 utc | 46
Posted by: Skiffer | Jul 8 2023 18:04 utc | 34
Yes both Russia and the AFU have used electronically fused mines that go inert after the battery runs down. The RAAM rounds for the 155mm are the only kind the AFU has had as far as I know. Russia has not used any mechanically fused cluster munitions as far as any confirmed reports. The AFU has used mechanically fused since 2014.
Posted by: badjoke | Jul 8 2023 18:27 utc | 47
@ Ed | Jul 8 2023 18:23 utc | 42
thanks ed and also thanks jb @ JB | Jul 8 2023 18:25 utc | 45 for the additional notes..
of course i agree with @ Exile | Jul 8 2023 17:17 utc | 23 post as well.. thanks exile..
Posted by: james | Jul 8 2023 18:31 utc | 48
@ sean the leprechaun | Jul 8 2023 18:00 utc | 30
Your commment was unnecessary. Everyone can already see you for what you are.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jul 8 2023 18:32 utc | 49
Regarding Turkey, Ukraine and NATO: the word Erdogan used was ‘deserves’. In the world of international politics that is a very weak statement. In practice it means that there is no way in he** they will ever be admitted in to the club.
Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 8 2023 16:25 utc
—————————————————————–
I think that is a very astute point of view. Erdogan’s statement does nothing to help Ukraine get into NATO. To begin with. Ukraine must end the war with Russia before it can actually be allowed into the NATO alliance.
Posted by: Ed | Jul 8 2023 18:33 utc | 50
More success on the battlefield may encourage a NATO intervention
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 8 2023 18:25 utc | 43
This is hilarious. I guess building tanks 24/7 happens in Russia now because they “bled the west” of 12 leopards. You should rename to HateDonbass or HateKremlin or HateBelgorod, it would match your post logic
Posted by: rk | Jul 8 2023 18:37 utc | 51
Alexander Bortnikov allegedly objected exchanging Denys Prokopenko and his neo-nazi comrades for Viktor Medvedchuk…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2022/10/01/prisoner-exchange-putin-fsb-ukraine
Posted by: Myriad | Jul 8 2023 18:39 utc | 52
Return of Ukrainian commanders ‘direct violation’ of agreement, says Moscow
“The return of five Ukrainian commanders from Turkey is a “direct violation” of a prisoner exchange brokered by Ankara last year, Russia has said.
It comes after President Zelenskiy tweeted a video of the men, who led the defence of the city of Mariupol until surrendering in May last year, boarding a plane with him to return to Ukraine.”
Maybe Putin won’t go to Turkey now.
Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 8 2023 18:41 utc | 53
@ jayc | Jul 8 2023 18:00 utc | 31
Counterpunch is clueless and has devolved into nothing but another Atlanticist b.s. outlet.
Nothing Minsk-like would be a satisfactory agreement for Russia. It’s sheer lily-livered western hopium. Russia is winning the conflict in Ukraine and the broader international transformation around it. Russia doesn’t need peace at this time. In fact, a premature peace would not be desirable before Russia has extracted maximum benefit from it’s outlay.
The status quo favors Russia AND any conceivable change of western strategy also favors Russia.
Accordingly, if peace is desired, it will have to be a peace that favors Russia, but that’s an inconceivable outcome for our ‘leaders’, and so the fighting goes on.
So at this point, what sort of peace offer might be an actual inducement for Russia to accept peace? Well, if I was Russia the minimum I would consider is:
-retain all regions that have voted to join Russia,
-free votes in each remaining Ukrainian oblast on future status with the choice being independence, joining Russia, or staying with a newly constituted Ukraine (see below);
-formal agreement from NATO that no more states closer to Russia will be admitted and that certain types of destabilizing weapons will not be posted in NATO states admitted since 199?;
-a new government and constitution in Ukraine, outlawing Naziism, committing to neutrality, and limiting military capabilities;
-indemnity against specious legal persecution of Russian citizens for events during the conflict;
-investigation of crimes by the Kiev regime and its agents between 2014 and 2022; and
-release and remediation of all Russian assets frozen, seized or damaged by NATO members since February 2022.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jul 8 2023 18:45 utc | 54
https://twitter.com/KyivIndependent/status/1677699339647430661
No words. If any of you don’t question Putin after this. And the Kremlin just stated they do not have a problem with the release.
Erdogan would have never released Azov leaders unless he knows that Russia is done. Erdogan is pragmatic. He is a survivor. Do you think he wants to make deals with a Hebrew LGBT supporter like Zelensky? Of course not.
The dollar is not collapsing…lol. Please stop with your dreams about America collapsing. America is stronger than ever. The world has no other options. America will lead for the rest of your lives.
Posted by: Sergei | Jul 8 2023 18:56 utc | 55
I’m chuckling at all the people second guessing Putin for not being “aggressive” enough. He’s balancing many long term goals and is well loved by his people for caring about the lives of servicemen, which is no doubt greatly helping recruitment. He’s playing the long game. He absolutely doesn’t want the kind of losses Ukraine took when making advances, and the US will always supply ISR for any troop concentration.
Russia is performing a war of attrition, period. As there are signs of mass desertions, lack of ammunition, and ever decreasing troop quality, the writing is on the wall. Probing attacks will continue until there’s a collapse. It is also possible that the entire Ukrainian government may collapse, even though it is likely thoroughly staffed by US insiders. It is sad to see just how much covert power the US has to prop up despotic governments.
It looks like the US has a scorched earth policy on all levels. It wants to leave an incredible cost to Russia when it wins, which includes leaving destroyed men and now evidently cluster bombs. This is the second layer of this war, the economic war, which Putin is well aware of.
Posted by: Matthew | Jul 8 2023 18:59 utc | 56
Probably a good idea to rebrand Ye Olde Counteroffensive as:
“Ye Olde Failed NATO death March.”
Equipped by NATO, press ganged by NATO, trained by NATO, and doomed by NATO.
Poor Ukrainian SOBs never had a chance. They should have fragged a NATO officer and called it a tie.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 8 2023 18:59 utc | 57
Bar flies doing the false flag routine again. Last time we had a date for when it didn’t happen: July 5. On what day is it not going to happen this time?
Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 8 2023 16:12 utc | 16
————————————————————-
The date July 5, came from Zelensky, not MoA Barflies. Zelensky said that was the date that Russia was supposed to blow up the ZNPP. Yes, it was bullshit, but it could have been a cover for a Kiev false flag operation. Still could be. It’s a good question: Why are the Uki forces leaving their positions in Zaporizhzhia?
Posted by: Ed | Jul 8 2023 19:02 utc | 58
@Sergei
I don’t think Erdogan is placing a bet. He’s an eel who takes the best deal for himself, regardless of prior agreements.
Perhaps Zelensky offered him something in return. He’s awful close to the Beltway regime change gang now, and he might have some details on their plans to go after Erdogan in the future.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 8 2023 19:08 utc | 59
Bahaha what did I say, what did I say, Russia always 1 step behind
Turkey’s release of Ukrainian neo-Nazis violates deal – Kremlin
Both Ankara and Kiev have broken a 2022 prisoner exchange agreement with Moscow, Dmitry Peskov has insisted
https://swentr.site/news/579406-kremlin-kiev-ankara-deal/
Russia had these nazis in their hands, literally, and then they release them into Turkey and now Turkey just released them to Zelensky.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 8 2023 19:10 utc | 60
Posted by: Sergei | Jul 8 2023 18:56 utc | 55
——————————————————
So now we at the MoA all know where you are coming from. Good to know.
Posted by: Ed | Jul 8 2023 19:10 utc | 61
I guess Erdogan wants this war to stop. If Selenskyj has some kind of a success, it’s easier for him to return to the negotiating table. So give him his beloved Nazis.
Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 8 2023 19:17 utc | 62
Posted by: A.cagliostro | Jul 8 2023 16:02 utc | 12
soyuz which sends british satellites into orbit without counting the other western ones,….
The above statement is not correct.
Foreign satellites were successfully launched into orbit by a Russian Soyuz rocket on June 27, 2023, for the first time since the war in Ukraine.
The rocket took off at 7:34 a.m. ET from the Vostochny Cosmodrome, Amur Oblast, Russia, carrying the meteorological satellite Meteor-M and 42 associated payloads for Moscow.
Also on board were three small foreign spacecraft, one from Russian ally Belarus, as well as two from the United Arab Emirates (UAE) and Malaysia.
Posted by: 2+2=5 | Jul 8 2023 19:18 utc | 63
@Sergei #55:
And the Kremlin just stated they do not have a problem with the release.
False.
Kremlin calls the release of Azov militants by Turkey a breach of agreement (RIA Novosti, July 8, 2023 — in Russian)
…
“The return of Azov leaders from Turkey to the Ukraine is nothing more than a direct violation of the terms of the existing agreements. Moreover, in this case, the terms were violated by both the Ukrainian and Turkish sides,” the Kremlin spokesman said.
According to the agreement, these persons were to stay in Turkey until the end of the conflict. At the same time, no one informed Russia about the transfer of militants, Peskov specified.
…
Posted by: S | Jul 8 2023 19:20 utc | 64
This is why Russia should avoid deals with Turkey. They have historically and continually shown they can’t be trusted. Turkey is in NATO. Russia is foolish to keep overlooking that.
This is also why Russia should have less of a policy of taking prisoners. It is best to destroy them in the fighting than negotiating surrenders which gets them released a few months to a year later.
Posted by: MiniMo | Jul 8 2023 19:22 utc | 65
The war ends when Washington can no longer sell debt to fund it.
Posted by: Exile | Jul 8 2023 17:17 utc | 23
Unfortunately, you don’t need to sell debt to fund anything !
Debt is a US treasury – a $ with a term and coupon attached. It is a stock not a flow. A stock of savings held by households and business that happens after the spending.
If you want to talk about the primary dealers and the myth of ” who is going to buy the debt “. I can explain all of that to you if you like ? The system gives the primary dealers the funds to buy the treasuries.
It is a nothingburger that will not work out how you expect. So don’t get your hopes up.
Read these first…
Currency Regime Shift Effects Over-Rated
http://www.bondeconomics.com/2022/03/currency-regime-shift-effects-over-rated.html#more
Reserve Currency Blues
http://www.bondeconomics.com/2023/04/reserve-currency-blues.html#more
If you want me to explain how the primary dealers are given the funds to buy the treasuries just ask and I’ll explain to you.
Posted by: Echo Chamber | Jul 8 2023 19:31 utc | 66
Reading about the release of the Azov militants my first thought was “Bye-bye grain deal extension”.
It’ll be verrry interesting to see how that plays out.
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 8 2023 19:32 utc | 67
Ghost of Zanon | Jul 8 2023 18:09 utc | 36
***The mistake was ever trusting him in the first place.***
Not as big a “mistake” as Moscow stopping the DPR from executing the Azovites.
So then, having already tortured and murdered a lot of Donbas civilians and Russian POWs, the captured criminals were sent on a luxury holiday in Turkey. Following which, they got returned to a ‘hero’ welcome in Kiev.
No doubt that will have reformed the Azovites….
Since he seems to think in a similar way way, perhaps Putin could get a job with one of the rabidly wokist/pc Councils in England.
Posted by: Cynic | Jul 8 2023 19:34 utc | 68
67 – I was pretty sure something like that would happen. He has his defenders here but Erdoğan is basically a scumbag.
Posted by: Waldorf | Jul 8 2023 19:35 utc | 69
Russia had these nazis in their hands, literally, and then they release them into Turkey and now Turkey just released them to Zelensky.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 8 2023 19:10 utc | 60
What were the Russians supposed to do with them? The nazis went to Turkey as part of a surrender deal. They didn’t want to go to Ukraine or Russia. Going to Turkey was their choice.
The Russians got what they wanted – they got them out of that steel plant in Mariupol. And if the nazis now go back to Ukraine… do you think Russia will offer them such good terms a second time?
That Zelensky now takes those commanders back just shows how desparate his situation now is. Theirs, too, probably.
Posted by: Martina | Jul 8 2023 19:36 utc | 70
Re: #37, #43
” ” . . . Russia having more success on the battlefield would greatly accelerate its de-dollarization efforts, so this argument isn’t quite the trump card you think it is.
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 8 2023 18:09 utc | 37
############
. . . Sometimes, to get the total victory, you have to play the battle slow . . .
. . . Putin is doing something most people don’t have the ability to do. To outlast his opponent on his terms.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 8 2023 18:25 utc | 43
= = = = = = = =
My addition:
The global audience, the uninformed, the illiterate, the vassal politicians (of Poland and elsewhere) need time for reeducation.
This takes time, and, “very likely”, a fatherly hand to cerrect wrong perceptions.
And, I think, this approach is working. Illustration: Ze on the airship trap and at the tarmac in Sofia, Bulgaria. Not very many greeters (one) , and no red carpet for the Man of Our Times!! (several covers of periodicals, early March of 2022, PL). So, “hasten the annihilation of the Nazi!!!” – is not good for Russia – and for this reason there are “concern accelerators” of the SMO steamroller.
Posted by: LogosApplied | Jul 8 2023 19:37 utc | 71
Besides, economic hardships are vastly overstated as a constraint on belligerent nations in a time of war. Nations will continue to fight each other long after financial prudence would have dictated that they seek peace, sometimes for years
Good point – the key question will then be, would the American people stand for their 401(k) savings to be looted to fund The Ukrainian Civil War. Because that’s the only real option Washington has once interest on Treasuries reflects de-dollarization risks.
BTW – Yellen has mentioned de-dollarization as a serious risk a number of times.it’s real
Posted by: Exile | Jul 8 2023 19:39 utc | 72
“Whataboutism” is the distress-cry of an exposed hypocrite.
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jul 8 2023 15:34 utc | 4
Nice one! I’ll remember that.
Even the term shrieks of muddled thinking.
My favorite responses are “people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones” and “judge not less thee be judged”.
Posted by: Michael.j | Jul 8 2023 19:42 utc | 73
Ay updates on what HRW posted as ‘real’ evidence of the use of cluster munitions by showing a photograph of large quantities of deployed Russian munitions in Kharkov, of all neutral places?
The US stating that if they cannot get spare 155mm regular for Z the cluster version is all that is left, but what about the 500,000 rounds that some thought the Ukies had left?
The upcoming NATO meeting for the church ladies in Vilnius can only confirm that Ukraine faces challenges and that its advances have been slowed down more than they would have liked. It will surprise me if it turns into more than the ‘Red Hat Ladies’ luncheon meetings. The Patriots ‘protecting’ the airport are a hoot. The show must go on and maybe there are fewer true believers. Hard to tell.
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 8 2023 19:43 utc | 74
CounterPunch posted a transcript of a discussion amongst western legal scholars – including Richard Falk – regarding possible means to negotiate a settlement in Ukraine. The most promising approach, which would come closest to the interests of both sides, is essentially a new version of the Minsk agreement. This has been apparent for some time, and always results in a degree of dissembling by western commentators due to the fact it was Ukraine, with the support of its sponsors, which ultimately rejected this agreement and prepared to “take back” Donbass and Crimea by force of arms.
Posted by: jayc | Jul 8 2023 18:00 utc | 31
———————————————————
Counterpunch used to be a great internet magazine, but it has been taken over by the pro-Democratic Party, pro NATO Atlanticist, and pro-Western imperialist.
That being said, after the failures and dishonesty of the Minsk 1 & 2 agreements, why would Russia sign another phony Minsk agreement? The US and the EU can’t ever be trusted. The people living in Crimea and the four Oblast have voted to join the Russian Federation. When will Counterpunch support these people and their wishes to be free from a Ukrainian neo-Nazis regime that came to power through a US organized and paid for coup against an elected president and government?
There was a time when the editorial position at CP would have condemned NATO’s push to surround Russia at its borders, and the color revolutions to accomplish this imperialist goal.
Posted by: Ed | Jul 8 2023 19:45 utc | 75
Ed | Jul 8 2023 19:10 utc | 61–
Roughly 50% of newbies appearing here are fleas, a rather stable ratio over since Russia intervened in Syria almost 8 years ago.
“Generally speaking, an adult flea only lives for 2 or 3 months. Without a host to provide a blood meal, a flea’s life can be as short as a few days. Under ideal conditions of temperature, food supply, and humidity, adult fleas can live for up to a year and a half.”
The above tells you why fleas aren’t to be fed as they quickly die when denied blood, which in our case are responses to their crap. Let them banter amongst themselves until they perish.
As it doesn’t appear to be posted yet, here’s today’s ‘clobber list’ from the Russian Defence Ministry: https://eng.mil.ru/en/special_operation/news/more.htm?id=12472398@egNews
Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation
The AFU continued to attempt offensive actions in Donetsk, Krasny Liman and South Donetsk directions.
In Donetsk direction, as a result of the competent and courageous actions of the defending units of the Yug Group of Forces, nine enemy attacks have been successfully repelled close to Druzhba, Severnoye, Maryinka, and Pervomaiskoye (Donetsk People’s Republic).
In addition, enemy units were hit close to Krasnogorovka, Avdeevka, Veseloye and west of Kleshcheevka (Donetsk People’s Republic).
An ammunition depot of HIMARS multiple-launch rocket system projectiles has been destroyed near Mikhailovka (Donetsk People’s Republic).
One ordnance depot of 110th Mechanised Brigade of the AFU has been destroyed near Avdeevka (Donetsk People’s Republic).
The enemy losses were up to 500 Ukrainian servicemen killed and wounded, three tanks, six armoured fighting vehicles, four motor vehicles, two pickup trucks, two U.S.-manufactured M109 Paladin self-propelled artillery systems, and one D-30 howitzer.
In Krasny Liman direction, as a result of the active actions by the units of the Tsentr Group of Forces, as well as aviation, artillery and heavy firing systems, an enemy attack has been repelled near Torskoye (Donetsk People’s Republic).
An AFU manpower and hardware concentration area has been hit close to Chervonaya Dibrova (Lugansk People’s Republic) and Serebryanka (Donetsk People’s Republic).
The activities of one Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group have been suppressed close to Torskoye (Donetsk People’s Republic).
The enemy losses were over 60 Ukrainian personnel, three armoured fighting vehicles, three pickup trucks, and two D-30 howitzer.
In addition, three ammunition depots of the 66th mechanised and 81st airmobile brigades of the AFU have been hit close to Novolyubovka (Lugansk People’s Republic) and Serebryanka (Donetsk People’s Republic).
In South Donetsk direction, as a result of the active action by aviation, artillery and heavy flamethrower systems of the Vostok Group of Forces, an enemy attack has been repelled and one Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group has been eliminated near Urozhaynoye (Donetsk People’s Republic).
In Zaporozhye direction, AFU manpower and hardware concentration areas have been hit near Pyatikhatki and Orekhov (Zaporozhye region).
Two combat reconnaissance actions by AFU units near Marfopol and Rabotino were repelled (Zaporozhye region). In addition, the actions of an Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group have been disrupted close to Dorozhnyanka (Zaporozhye region).
The enemy losses were up to 170 Ukrainian servicemen, three armoured fighting vehicles, three motor vehicles, and one pickup truck.
One French-manufactured Cezar self-propelled howitzer, one U.S.-manufactured M777 artillery system, two Msta-B howitzers, two D-20 guns and one Gvozdika self-propelled artillery system have been also destroyed.
One ordnance depot of the 65th Mechanised Brigade of the AFU has been destroyed near Orekhov (Zaporozhye region).
In Kupyansk direction, the attacks, launched by Operational-Tactical and Army aviation, as well as artillery of the Zapad Group of Forces, have resulted in the neutralisation of manpower and hardware of the Armed Forces of Ukraine near Stelmakhovka, Novosyolovskoye, Artyomovka (Lugansk People’s Republic), Sinkovka, Berestovoye, and Dvurechnaya (Kharkov region).
The enemy losses were over 30 Ukrainian servicemen, two motor vehicles and one U.S.-manufactured AN/TPQ-50 counter-battery radar.
In Kherson direction, the enemy losses were up to 40 Ukrainian servicemen, one tank, four motor vehicles and one Gvozdika self-propelled artillery system.
Operational-Tactical and Army aviation, Missile Troops and Artillery of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation have neutralised 102 artillery units of the AFU at their firing positions, manpower and military hardware at 126 areas.
A fuel base for AFU military equipment has been hit close to Zaporozhye.
Air defence facilities have shot down one Su-27 airplane of Ukrainian Air Force near Novogrigorovka (Donetsk People’s Republic).
Six HIMARS multiple-launch rocket system projectiles have been intercepted.
In addition, 17 unmanned aerial vehicles have been destroyed close to Verkhnekamenka (Lugansk People’s Republic), Maryinka, Volodino (Donetsk People’s Republic), Ostrikovka, Shirokoye, Mirnoye (Zaporozhye region), Novaya Mayachka, Novaya Kakhovka, Malokakhovka, Ulyanovka (Kherson region) and Volfino (Sumy region).
In total, 453 airplanes, 241 helicopters, 4,938 unmanned aerial vehicles, 426 air defence missile systems, 10,582 tanks and other armoured fighting vehicles, 1,135 fighting vehicles equipped with MLRS, 5,383 field artillery cannons and mortars, as well as 11,512 special military motor vehicles have been destroyed during the special military operation.
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 8 2023 19:47 utc | 77
Biden just said straight out walking by a reporter who asked:
-Why are we sending cluster ammunition now?
-We’ve ran out of ammunition!
So cluster munitions will be the only ammunition Ukraine will be using for quite a while.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 8 2023 19:52 utc | 78
“Do you think he wants to make deals with a Hebrew LGBT supporter like Zelensky? Of course not.
[snip]
Posted by: Sergei | Jul 8 2023 18:56 utc | 55”
Given Erdogan’s friendship with the bandits occupying Palestine, a friendship spanning two decades with only occasional and cosmetic interruptions — why would this be surprising?
Posted by: malenkov | Jul 8 2023 19:52 utc | 79
When the ‘clobber’ list mentions 500 KIA in one area, it makes me wonder about exactly 500. Not 510 or 507 or even 501.
I don’t doubt Russian numbers. If anything, I wonder if they get tired of counting amidst Ukrainian human wave attacks. Good Grief.
Posted by: Eighthman | Jul 8 2023 19:56 utc | 80
Azov are free! Thank you Mr. Putin. Your restraint is saving the world. You are a great Christian man.
Zelensky visited Snake Island and mocked Russia’s inability to hit him. Haha. He did it in a little boat. He is scared.
Posted by: Sergei | Jul 8 2023 16:42 utc | 20
Yeah, everyone pretty much remembers and is laughing at the two or three waves of AFU special force attacks (designed by British “military experts” btw) with boats and helicopters on Snake island in May 2022 which cost them a bunch of those helicopters, boats and spec forces. And a month after that the Russians just figured the island wasn’t worth the trouble, packed up and left.
Fife Azov guys are going to change what, exactly?
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 8 2023 19:56 utc | 81
Any thoughts on how/if Frank Herbert’s commentary about mastery of the art of patience relates to how Putin and the Russian MOD have run the SMO in Ukraine so far?
The clobber list total of destroyed weaponry indicates to me that the Russians have some degree of mastery there with that.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Talk:Spannungsbogen
The Ukrainian Neo-Nazis would make for the Harkonnen’s in this analogy, and from there we could draw other connections to Dune.
Spoiler alert:
Even with a crap load of off planet support, things did not end well for the Harkonnen in charge, the Beast Rabban.
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 8 2023 20:01 utc | 82
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 8 2023 19:43 utc | 74
Russian aerial interdiction of supplies, driven by an ever-improving ISR network, has obviously put a dint in their supplies; however there may be two other reasons for shipping of cluster munitions now. The first is that the West are expecting a Russian counter-offensive, so have prioritised weapons capable of engaging armoured formations, the second, that they are trying to stockpile 155 HE and are trying to uses the DPICM as a stop-gap. Conceivably they are preparing to supply ATACMS with cluster munitions, perhaps the Kerch bridge, rail hubs and airfields could be on the target list. Again, these would be struck to disrupt a Russian offensive, not support the Ukrainian remake of the Somme.
Posted by: Milites | Jul 8 2023 20:01 utc | 83
@Hartz4ukr
“The clown Z arrived in Lviv with the Nazis released by Erdogan
Another great 5D chess move by chessmaster Vlad?
With such a „president“ Russia doesnt needs enemies”
Are these guys some military geniuses? Or just some f—-g Nazis, who will be destroyed by Russian artillery next time they show up at the front?
Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 8 2023 20:02 utc | 84
Regarding prisoner releases:
The calculation is the relaxing of the Ukrainian threat to the znpp and the release of the prisoners. First they were sent to turkey to stop the mariupol battle, now they’re sent back to stop the nuclear terrorism. Clearly russia is in on the deal and will have a fake spat with turkey to cover it up. It’s a tough call, but the stakes are high enough to justify this humiliation. Clearly someone in russia is making tough calls.
And finally at karlof1 and his fleas comment. Really? Who appointed you the arbiter of the truth? The dehumanizing arrogance of that statement diminishes you sir. People with different opinions aren’t necessarily fake you know.
Good day to you.
Good day.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 8 2023 20:07 utc | 85
The above tells you why fleas aren’t to be fed as they quickly die when denied blood, which in our case are responses to their crap. Let them banter amongst themselves until they perish.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 8 2023 19:46 utc | 76
——————————————————
That is a good point karlof1, and I do not disagree. Still, some fleas deserve to be pinched to death which is hard to do when it comes to fleas.
Posted by: Ed | Jul 8 2023 20:07 utc | 86
Posted by: LogosApplied | Jul 8 2023 19:37 utc | 71
##########
Indeed. Big changes usually take time, and a persistent application of pressure.
It’s easy to level Kiev. Harder to change hundreds of years of Western dominance.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 8 2023 20:08 utc | 87
I took a look at the post of yesterday and noticed a huge decrease in comments. Are the usual posters going on vacation?
My take is that Russia is in a controlled defense mode that allows defense stocks be increased, meanwhile Ukraine has this huge ongoing deficit of manpower. Increasingly Ukrainian units have been found to have foreign fighter operating within, a distinct sign of NATO’s directed input that has to increase to make any headway. I suspect that Russia is in deep rotation of troops to get them properly up to the task and taking slightly heavier losses than would be liked due to this effort, but essential for any stinging offense. The objective of averting a nuclear war is seemingly diminishing as all indications of sanity in the West are only from the outsiders.
Turkiye’s abdication of holding these ‘Commanders’, to me has the tasid approval of the Kremlin, as no one wants these guys in a post-conflict Ukraine anyway, they have super inflated egos and will only cause problems with the NATO command structure.. and it sort of gives Turkiye a better voice in the NATO summit.
Posted by: T S | Jul 8 2023 20:10 utc | 88
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 8 2023 20:01 utc | 82
Dune parallels could get seriously off-topic here, but I do like the idea of Zelensky as Beast Rabban!
Who else can we think of? Biden as the Padishah Emperor??? Xi Jingping as Reverend Gaius Mohiam???
Blackrock and Vanguard would definitely be part of CHOAM…
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 8 2023 20:11 utc | 89
@ed and his fleas.
You are also diminished by this incredible analogy.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 8 2023 20:12 utc | 90
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 8 2023 20:07 utc | 85
In a static/frontal war like this where defending side has a big artillery advantage, and advantage in air support, the quality or heroics of a single soldier means less compared to a mobile, quickly drifting front. The current war is like AFU drops their infantry several km away from the trench, who then try to approach the defensive trench (often times without any sort of support).
If they manage to get to the trench, then they can even their chances against the defender, but a lot of times their group gets hit before they get to the trench. In this case, “quality fierce” Azov or SS soldier doesn’t really matter. If they can get to a trench, then their individual close combat skill can probably make a difference. This doesn’t happen often.
Contrary to popular belief, the first few months of WW1 were also very mobile. The Germans got 100 or 200km away from Paris by August, but were steadily pushed back from Paris, which then stabilized starting from Ypres. The eastern front of WW1 was also very mobile, a bit longer than the western front. This war is similar in that sense.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 8 2023 20:16 utc | 92
The above tells you why fleas aren’t to be fed as they quickly die when denied blood, which in our case are responses to their crap. Let them banter amongst themselves until they perish.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 8 2023 19:46 utc | 76
——————————————————
That is a good point karlof1, and I do not disagree. Still, some fleas deserve to be pinched to death which is hard to do when it comes to fleas.
Posted by: Ed | Jul 8 2023 20:07 utc | 86
Don’t go too hard or you’ll kill some good flys too. Peace be with the bar!
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 8 2023 20:18 utc | 93
@unimperator
I think this deal demonstrates the ukrainian preference for propaganda over more substantive gains.
Spot on.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 8 2023 20:19 utc | 94
To all the folks replying to the SloMO trolls: don’t do it, they will be back tomorrow ranting again and derailing the next thread too. Just please ignore them otherwise it won’t stop…
Posted by: Zet | Jul 8 2023 20:19 utc | 95
Russia is performing a war of attrition, period.
Posted by: Matthew | Jul 8 2023 18:59 utc | 56
This seems to be a general consensus among military experts.
Now if we go back and think about it, Bakhmut was an ideal place for Russians to execute this strategy. Confined space with high concentration of Ukrainian forces and narrow supply line exposed to the Russian artillery. And Ukrainians continue bringing fresh forces into a killing fields.
My question is: why Russians did not continue their tactic?
Well, it seems that Prighozin sacrificed twenty thousand of his fighters to prevent that.
Posted by: 2+2=5 | Jul 8 2023 20:19 utc | 96
Vladimir Putin is taking L after L.
Posted by: Temari | Jul 8 2023 20:14 utc | 91
#########
You’re right. He’s had to return Crimea to Zelensky, drawn down his mobilization, remove his nukes from Belorussia, and has bottomed out in the Russian opinion polls.
It’s all crashing down!! As they love to say in America, “the walls are closing in!” and that madman Putin will have to give away to someone more level-headed like Medvedev.
I literally giggled as I typed that last sentence.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 8 2023 20:20 utc | 97
Intelligent Dasein insists on Russian offensive action, sooner rather than later, as if he is in a position to make that happen! His or her handle, as many may recognize, ridicules makers of an argument regarding cosmology and reverences an Hegelian neologism dear to and expanded upon by Heidegger, Dasein, which means Being Itself as having aseity as yet while wrapped in existence. The Vedic correlate of Dasein is Jivatma. The nearest Western (Latin) Christian correlate is Avila’s Interior Castle, the existential locus of primordial eternity, or Guyon’s Quiet.
While others have answered Intelligent Dasein’s impatience, I offer the following, which goes to the fundamentals of conflict doctrine itself, and as such, applies to The Church and the churches — Latin and Greek-Russian — as much as it does to National Defense Doctrine and a nation’s Joint Force Operations:
1- You win by killing more of your enemy’s than he kills of yours.
2- You kill the most, proportionately to your own losses, by being on defense.
3- Ergo, defense is preferable to offense.
4- Ergo, you use offense to draw your enemy into your defensive works and / or to lop off his intellect in the operational and strategic depths.
5- The best defense is defense itself supplemented occasionally by a luring and / or lopping offense.
6- Offense is mainly a tactical and sometimes operational asset and only rarely a strategic one. Defense is all three: a tactical, an operational, and a strategic asset.
7- A Great Captain has a sniper’s patience at the operational and strategic depths.
Posted by: The Rev. David R. Gr | Jul 8 2023 20:20 utc | 98
@Temari
“Vladimir Putin is taking L after L.”
Absolutely right. If nothing changes, Russian tanks will roll through the Brandenburger Gate very soon.
Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 8 2023 20:25 utc | 99
“The war ends when Washington can no longer sell debt to fund it.”
Yes. Concurrently the “money” created by debt no longer is desirable and cant be traded for anything. This is the reason for Russian “restraint”. It also the reason for USA escalation/urgency. All that remains is to see if “NATO” is wanting to blow up the world rather than lose the hegemony. We may find out on the 11th. If Blinken and Nuland take a visit to their second passport country at the same time, time to break out that bottle of scotch.
You know that country that is not signature to the nuclear non proliferation treaty that has a whole bunch of nukes. They are invisible you see. That country that no one demands to take a stand on Ukraine. The people of that country suffered such unspeakable horror in the past that their countries government is not to be questioned on any matter. To apply the standards of all the other governments to that country is to be a advocate of those unspeakable horrors of the past. That country probably will not get pasted in a nuclear war. The real players will be in the southern hemisphere just in case where a civilized manner of order is established to their liking. A rule based order where the rules are a tad malleable. Once this unfortunate incident is over we can get back to business with other wise countries that did not choose this self destructive path like China.
After all if the commoners of the world choose to blow themselves up… Ke sera. Its not like they didnt have a choice. They could have capitulated. We gave them every opportunity to capitulate. It was our wish they save themselves but alas that was not their choice. They took their blinders off. They were a REALLY nice pair of blinders too! The executioner gets ended along with the rest its function fulfilled. Only fair. He ate a lot anyway. The food bill was horrendous. Thats the way they wants it so they gets it. We dont like it anymore than you do.
Posted by: sillydog | Jul 8 2023 20:28 utc | 100