Ukraine Open Thread 2023-161
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
The current open thread for other issues here.
Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Posted by b on July 6, 2023 at 13:52 UTC | Permalink
next page »Anyone know (or guess?) when the Russian offensive will happen?
July?
August?
September?
October?
November?
December?
2024?
2025?
I would guess ZERO chance there will be any Russian offensive before October and 50:50 between (October-December 2023 & 2024).
Thoughts (& Prayers).
For those who would say this is a "War of Attrition" - sure, but why does that Attrition have to include the citizens of Donetsk City?
Posted by: Julian | Jul 6 2023 14:08 utc | 2
Ukraine is 'running on empty.' As a 'war' things haven't gone well, but as a money-laundering scheme to keep the Bidens out of prison, it's been great.
But, alas, the fat lady is hanging by her heels, screaming for her life.
The only off-ramp is surrender. Too bad the secular humanists who run the Empire have a death wish (for everyone else.)
Posted by: gottlieb | Jul 6 2023 14:25 utc | 3
As long as the Russians are reluctant to take heavy casualties, the war will continue until Biden loses the 2024 election. Biden will pour U.S. weaponry and mercenary/proxy troops into Ukraine in sufficient quantities to shore up the battered Ukrainian army. There are thousands of Bradleys and Abrams in the U.S. inventory. A decisive Russian victory will not be cheap, and it will not be achieved until Putin is willing to pay the price.
Posted by: HH | Jul 6 2023 14:25 utc | 4
Confucius say: Virtuous man in patience superior is.
Sun Tan Zu say: If your enemy desires you to attack, don't.
The Great War ended first slowly and then suddenly.
" ...the war will continue until Biden loses the 2024 election..."
There will never be a fair election in the US anymore. Not ever.
The Wagner exile to Belarus does not serve the Polish land-grabbers well. Clever coincidence that.
Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jul 6 2023 14:30 utc | 7
Posted by: james | Jul 6 2023 14:31 utc | 8
About the night strike on Lviv.
According to preliminary information, a missile strike destroyed the building of the Academy of the Land Forces of Ukraine, located on the Heroes of Maidan Street. Judging by what's left of the building, a "Caliber" flew there.
The hit fell on the 9th academic building of the Academy of the Ground Forces.
According to some reports, the facility was used to accommodate foreign specialists in combat training, mine-blasting and sabotage activities. All the dead, presumably, had to go closer to the front line to check and train the assault and mechanized units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
milchronicles
Posted by: Fives | Jul 6 2023 14:33 utc | 9
Posted by: Julian | Jul 6 2023 14:08 utc | 2
By fixating on the narrative of the "missing offensive" from Russian side you can miss the major red flag on AFU side, namely their Lvov military commissioner said that 80% of their recruits now come from raids off the street and from private houses. That means the end is getting near, unless of course Poland is willing to send 100k people or more to fight for them.
The narrative of the missing offensive is not true by the way, it's just a fact of life how the war is. There are tactical counter-offensives all the time, and Ukraine is the one willing to do the attacks and often in the more wasteful manner, so RU is defending. They make occasional counter-attacks to retake some position which are deemed vital. There will probably be a larger offensive if/when things stabilize as AFU offensives dry up.
It's obvious that there's more than one way to skin a cat, or win a war as they say.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 6 2023 14:33 utc | 10
Ukraine losing senior mil guys.
§ The commander of the battalion of the Zhytimir troops, Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Verbilo, was eliminated in the combat zone.
§ The Russian military destroyed the deputy battalion commander of Ukraine.
- Major Ivan Tereshchenko
Safari tourists with one-way tickets
§ It became known that a Lithuanian mercenary in the direction of Bakhmut was liquidated.
Valery Polkovnikov (Valerijus Polkovnikovas). The militant arrived in Kyiv to train local players on how to use FVP drones but was killed in a shootout, his classmate reported on social media.
§ VDV destroyed a enemy group on the Kremena-Liman frontline....there was an American among them it's reported
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 6 2023 14:35 utc | 11
https://t.me/remylind21
“Today the reconnaissance and artillerymen of the western group of troops had a good day.
1) The enemy ammunition depot was opened and destroyed in the settlement. Volchansk;
2) after 10 minutes, the enemy's PVD was covered at a factory in the same Volchansk;
3) After that, the APU officers were evacuated to the settlement in a panic. White Well, but there they were waiting for a gift from the MLRS “Tornado-G” and “Tornado-S”;
4) By the end of the working day, the enemy air defense system in the settlement was destroyed. “
~ Cossack Lopan.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 6 2023 14:40 utc | 12
Julian | Jul 6 2023 14:08 utc | 2
CNN told me Russians always have been, and always will be, offensive.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 6 2023 14:43 utc | 13
oldhippie | Jul 6 2023 14:36 utc | 14
Nah, U$ money markets aren’t OT.. the Sanctions From Hell™️ were intended to defeat Russia in 6weeks. Three months, tops.
That Russia’s economy is proving resilient, and the U$ (and EU) economies fragile, is an unintended consequence, and greatest irony of the war USNATO provoked.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 6 2023 14:49 utc | 14
The source of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation specified the goals of the night strike with "Caliber" on Lviv.
The target of today's strike on Ukraine's reserves was Western equipment and militants on the territory of the military academy in Lviv.
On the territory there were Western armored vehicles, with a high degree of probability, and British Challenger tanks.
It is also reported that there were up to 800 Armed Forces of Ukraine and foreign mercenaries on the territory of the Academy of the Armed Forces of Ukraine at the time of the strike.
CC
Posted by: Fives | Jul 6 2023 14:51 utc | 15
Where is the poster with the handle “Rk?”
He needs to tell us that everything is peaceful In Lviv.. nothing for tourists to worry over.
Don’t mind the NATO merc entrails in the street and the blood on your copy of “Eastern European travel guide.”
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 6 2023 15:02 utc | 16
[2]
Julian, did you ever reflect on the Marxist approach of Hitler and Churchill to bombimg cities ? Rarely were middle class areas bombed, even at the outset of WW2 proposals to burn the Black Forest were nixed on grounds it was “private property”. Yet working class areas were bombed, flooded from breached dams, or burned with incendiaries on the principle the Proletariat would rise up against those coordinating the war.
That is why Britain and US guide and direct strikes in civilians in Donbass to make them suffer and blame Russia for not destroying the incoming and insist on diversion of resources to attacking mobile artillery firing into Donbass City
It is why UK has given longer range weapons to overcome distance Russia has forced Ukraine to retreat - now as Lavrov stated Russia needs a bigger Buffer Zone/DMZ - in fact it needs total destruction of fuel supplies, manpower, electricity, and vehicles across most of Ukraine to the Polish border
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jul 6 2023 15:20 utc | 17
NATO is the USA's PMC (Public Military Contractor). For which EU vassals pay the entire tab. Good work if you can get it.
Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jul 6 2023 15:22 utc | 18
@ Ghost of Zanon | Jul 6 2023 15:02 utc | 23
Right and true – how someone can be led to believe that any place away from the front-lines in Ukraine is safe?
I would render 100 km around West-South-West borders of Ukraine extremely unsafe to be, even as a tourist.
Less fear and danger that might be coming from Russian side, as more is to worry from the fallouts from the NATO side.
Apparently, NATO had 5 planes and 2 helis crashed while training, so far around Ukraine in a last few months. Stuff falls from the sky now and then. Nobody died on the ground, luckily.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 6 2023 15:26 utc | 19
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jul 6 2023 15:20 utc | 20
Given the CEP for an early war night bomber was 5 miles, I doubt a policy of deliberate, class-based, discrimination was followed, rather that working class areas were more numerous, close to industrial targets and their distinctive landmarks. The fire-maps of Bomber Command specifically target the timber houses, favoured by the well-off, due to their construction and hard to access, for fire crews, locations.
Posted by: Milites | Jul 6 2023 15:40 utc | 20
A perspective:
https://noraloreto.substack.com/p/daring-to-talk-diplomacy
Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jul 6 2023 16:05 utc | 21
@2.
Seems like russia is already increased the tempo around kupiansk south to Lyman. I think that in this type of war counts as an offensive. It could be ukraine is pulling reserves away from zaporohzia to repel them.
It doesn't make for large sweeps but does count for attritional warfare.
I think a big offensive will come from the north to sumy when what your looking for happens. There's no big build up to indicate that yet. It all depends on how thin the Ukrainian lines get and on the amount of weapon deliveries.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 6 2023 16:06 utc | 22
Why hasn't Russia destroyed US funded (more than $200M) biological laboratories, the ones dealing with infectious disease in Ukraine?
Trust in the Neo-Nazi regime or more generally trust in human nature in wartime?
Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jul 6 2023 16:07 utc | 23
Putin is planning a nuclear disaster
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ukraine-says-putin-is-planning-a-nuclear-disaster-these-people-live-nearby/ar-AA1djHvv
"Warnings from Ukrainian officials and atomic energy experts about a potential disaster in southeastern Ukraine have gained urgency"
And buried way down, towards the end of the story, WaPo finally says ...
"[Rafael Mariano Grossi, and IAEA official] said he saw no evidence it had been mined."
Funny how the U.S. treats Zelensky's statements as gospel truth and ignores the inspectors who were actually on site. Granted the IAEA wasn't looking for bombs but they did examine the critical systems at the Nuke plant. Ukrainian workers could pass along this type of information but they would also mention this to the IAEA staff if it was true.
Posted by: Christian Chuba | Jul 6 2023 16:16 utc | 24
Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jul 6 2023 15:22 utc | 21
“NATO is the USA's PMC (Public Military Contractor). For which EU vassals pay the entire tab. Good work if you can get it”
Sure is. About to double in the near future, and quadruple soon enough. Awaiting eagerly Dima’s response. Nuclear threats, if I’m not mistaken?
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Jul 6 2023 16:16 utc | 25
For those who would say this is a "War of Attrition" - sure, but why does that Attrition have to include the citizens of Donetsk City?
Posted by: Julian | Jul 6 2023 14:08 utc | 2
##############
Something that I think Slovaks understand innately, is sacrifice for the end goal. The same reason why so many fathers volunteer for war. It's for the future, for their children's children.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 6 2023 16:16 utc | 26
As long as the Russians are reluctant to take heavy casualties, the war will continue until Biden loses the 2024 election. Biden will pour U.S. weaponry and mercenary/proxy troops into Ukraine in sufficient quantities to shore up the battered Ukrainian army. There are thousands of Bradleys and Abrams in the U.S. inventory. A decisive Russian victory will not be cheap, and it will not be achieved until Putin is willing to pay the price.
Posted by: HH | Jul 6 2023 14:25 utc | 4
#############
There are many kinds of victory. The destruction of the dollar is a victory. The de-militarization of NATO is a victory. The applications to the SCO and BRICs are victories. The success of all of those battles is dependent on the Russian people being able to enjoy the fruits of those wins.
Personally, I love that Putin so highly values human life, first his own, and second those of his opponents. It's rare for a Christian to actually try to live Christian values today, when there are many faster and easier paths to take.
It should inform everyone about the pace of the SMO that the Russian people largely are well behind Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin. Sure there are people who complain and criticize, but they are a relatively small, but loud, minority.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 6 2023 16:22 utc | 27
Posted by: Christian Chuba | Jul 6 2023 16:16 utc | 33
The US press are simply prostitutes who have whored themselves out to the MIC.
In exchange for surrendering their integrity and calling to be a watchdog over the government, they get a cozy gig pushing propaganda.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 6 2023 16:22 utc | 28
Eventually, the Russians have to establish a long zone along the Polish border with Ukraine to destroy any equipment and personnel trying to enter Ukraine!! Until that happens this tragic war will continue!!
This war might go on to the last " European "!!
Posted by: cousin lucky | Jul 6 2023 16:24 utc | 29
Why hasn't Russia destroyed US funded (more than $200M) biological laboratories, the ones dealing with infectious disease in Ukraine? Trust in the Neo-Nazi regime or more generally trust in human nature in wartime?Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jul 6 2023 16:07 utc | 32
Someone noticed that the territories first caputured back Feb/March were aligned with the locations of the bioweapons labs. The RF captured troves of documents and labs. Lots of publicity and UN hearings on the subject. Even Pelosi made a stink.
So apparently the bioweapons labs are no more.
Posted by: Exile | Jul 6 2023 16:27 utc | 30
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 6 2023 14:33 utc | 10
It’s all a matter of equilibrium, if the Russians plan to launch a counter-offensive, big if, they have two choices when to do, to maximise its chances of success.
Pre-equilibrium: the attack happens when momentum still favours the attacker, but inertia has set in. Advantages: the attacker is still configured for offensive action and only relies on hasty defences to stop the counter-attacking forces. Disadvantages: the counter-attacker is still subject to enemy offensive action. Example 1942 Operation Frederikus, the Germans attacked whilst the Russian Operation was still continuing.
Equilibrium: the attacker has ‘run out of steam’, units are beginning to consolidate their positions and transition to defensive postures. Advantages: the initiative has been ceded to the counter-attacking forces. Disadvantages: the enemy are already in defensive positions which will only strengthen. Example 1943 Operation Kutuzov, launched just after the German offensive had clearly stalled.
Choosing when to strike during the chancing equilibrium cycle is critical, especially as modern ISR favours the defender heavily, removing many of the traditional advantages of having the offensive initiative. They could always opt for the Bagration option, only attacking when Ukrainian forces are over-stretched and lacking in everything, though that offensive’s success was massively boosted by the preceding deception operation.
Posted by: Milites | Jul 6 2023 16:30 utc | 31
And that is why it is instructive to count the percentage of the population fighting on either side. Somehow, invaders rank just a tiny bit lower. Wonder if the Glory of Putin is not so high as their children’s children?
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Jul 6 2023 16:24 utc | 39
##################
You're taking a very Western perspective on this, hyper-focusing on Putin, when it's really about the greater Russian state, which has seen many wars over the last 1,000 years.
For Americans, the SMO is a big deal. For Russians, in a cultural sense, this is just another day living on the edge of Europe.
Continue to count the %s.
I will count the territory taken, the equipment destroyed, and the relative strengths of the currencies.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 6 2023 16:31 utc | 32
Ok, I hope everyone remembers this when reading your posts :)
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Jul 6 2023 16:27 utc | 40
##############
Ungenerous readings are a clear sign of bad faith (which isn't a surprise given your ideological disposition).
I obviously meant the Russian people, not Putin's own life. If he was worried about himself first, he could have retired in style a long time ago. And anyone who thinks that Russia's violence hasn't been restrained under Putin is probably on the far left side of the IQ bell curve.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 6 2023 16:35 utc | 33
@ Neofeudalfuture | Jul 6 2023 16:06 utc | 31
All that is nice and fine, but at the moment prevention of Ukraine to shell Donetsk must be a priority. Since Avdeevka is yet another NATO fortress left to fall, I can see the idea that RF is circling on that area from the North, a bit long way from where they are now.
However, it would be reasonable circumventing Artemovsk-like situations.
That will keep the RF's casualties at some reasonable minimum, still way better than trying to take down the enclave directly. Lots of work there still.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 6 2023 16:38 utc | 34
I am worried by the new humanism in the Usa.
They want to bring Putin to Hague as a war- criminal.
That is a worrysome development from the illegal prison at Guetanamo Bay, where people have been sitting without a trial for 20 years now.
Saddam, Gadaffi and Obama was not brougth to Hague.
Have the americans grown soft?
SlavaLira
Posted by: Paul from Norway | Jul 6 2023 16:38 utc | 35
Determine to escalate.
Or all that's left?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/06/world/europe/ukraine-cluster-munitions.html
Posted by: jpc | Jul 6 2023 16:51 utc | 36
The very fact that 3rd rate country like England is openly plotting and running wars against Russia is because if special respect shown by Russia to her arch enemy the English pirates. Russia should have atleast bombed mi5 headquarters in London with s1000 bomb
Posted by: Sam | Jul 6 2023 17:04 utc | 37
Posted by: Milites | Jul 6 2023 16:30 utc | 42
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 6 2023 14:33 utc | 10
It’s all a matter of equilibrium, if the Russians plan to launch a counter-offensive, big if, they have two choices when to do, to maximise its chances of success.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Key concerns are macro level, especially:
1. The degree of support within Ukraine able to both lead/represent the population and do so without being beholden to the (Finance) Empire. Without such, RF has nobody within Ukraine to deal with. So they won't until then. We are not there yet by a long shot.
2. Exhaustion on the part of NATO axis such that they can no longer project force into and continuously meddle in the internal affairs of foreign nations far away from their shores, like Ukraine. Such exhaustion might only require the fall of the neocons and their networks out of favor. But since these guys are just secretaries for the very considerable power networks still very much in the Western saddle, this isn't going to come soon either, oldhippie's smart warning notwithstanding.
Part of the problem lies with the inherent flaws in latter-day 'capitalist' - or criminal credit cartel if your prefer - model which is that the rich get richer as the poor and middle get poorer. There are two core ways this happens:
1. They literally make more money in good times by increasing their percentage take of the gross economy. Usually they game the system as they accrue more power meaning that good people have a harder time prospering whilst bad people an easier time. Over time, this destroys the polity from within, but it can keep going for a long time when everyone more or less is doing well even if a small clique is doing better.
2. Less well understood but the exact same in principle: they also benefit from contractions, even depressions or defeats in war (such as Germany in the 50's), because as weak players are squeezed out of the system only a few are left standing. Those few are not making more money necessarily in gross terms, but relatively speaking they are greatly increasing their 'differential' percentage ownership of all profit-making (and influencing) assets so that when growth returns, relatively they are even more powerful than they were before the downturns started and will gain the most.
What this means is that the elites are perfectly comfortable driving the West into the ground. They stand to become even more powerful. And since they own much of the trade flows out of China into everywhere else, as China's differential share grows, so does theirs.
So from their POV they are in a win-win situation. So: the more destruction the better - anywhere, anytime suits them just fine. They just need to fool enough of the people enough of the time into undertaking such reprehensible, ugly, damaging and destructive actions. And it seems they are regularly able to do so. Populations are surprisingly easy to manipulate into supporting those who hate them.
And the bad guys have not yet been proven wrong. From the POV of ordinary citizens, common sense and basic morality, they are messing up big time and much they do seems crazy or stupid. This may be an accurate appraisal but meanwhile the bad guys are becoming relatively more powerful and influential so from their perspective, all is hunky dory.
At some point, the center will not hold. Two entirely different realities like this cannot coexist forever. But many of the bad actors are part of networks that have been successful for many centuries and they know how to fool populations and their native leadership. Indeed, they are not as stupid as many are now projecting just because what they do doesn't seem to benefit the countries they are (falsely) presumed to be leading.
(That's why I have resistance to the term 'US Empire.' The 'US' has been captured, long ago. One author in Unz this week calls it a Talmudic Empire. Perhaps it's more accurate though probably also an incomplete, overly cartoonish depiction. Whatever it is, it has almost nothing to do with the American people or their Constitution or, therefore, 'the United States' which, practically speaking, no longer truly exist as such.)
@45 whirlx
Actually keeping donetsk 100 per cent safe isn't the priority. The occasional Ukrainian shelling of it doest hurt the war effort and keeps people aware of who their enemies are.
Same goes or belograd
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 6 2023 17:19 utc | 39
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 6 2023 15:02 utc | 18
Perhaps he is Kalibrating a response from beyond?
Posted by: badjoke | Jul 6 2023 17:24 utc | 40
and this came via NBC News today, about alleged secret talks held in NY in April between Lavrov and ex-US government personnel and think tankers on the war.
wonder if there is a Russian side to that.
Posted by: AG | Jul 6 2023 17:32 utc | 41
@ Neofeudalfuture | Jul 6 2023 17:19 utc | 39
I got that, but it is also a way to generate anger and disbelief in RF's army, that feeds, again, the 5th column of TGs, VKs and bloggers as an impotence and a SMO objectives failure.
However, I know that as in WWII things lingered very slow, and then, suddenly a quick big red arrows and a sudden death of Wermacht unfolded.
I do expect the very same happening in Ukraine, too.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 6 2023 17:35 utc | 42
Today I'm wondering what an honest deep dive into the economic outlook of Ukraine looks like. What are Ukraine's immutable liabilities? What are its unencumbered assets? What are its mortgaged assets?
How many of its best managers and technical staff have fled with their families, and started new lives in other countries? How much of its essential infrastructure has been damaged, and what would it cost to repair it/how long will it take to repair it/ what negative impact does it exert on the rest of the economy, and does Ukraine still have within its borders what's needed to begin repairs?
Is the West already figuring that rebuilding Ukraine would require the West to essentially both fund it, and manage it, including supplying much of the labor and supervision?
Would areas adjacent to what Russia occupied be considered too risky to invest in, and would only the parts of Ukraine still more or less functional, albeit heavily subsidized, be able to count on getting restored?
How much of Ukraine's economy is on life support? What companies and even industries are hanging on by their fingernails, and would go under if the West wasn't ensuring they got supplies that Ukraine can't make, or can't afford on its own to import?
I'm wondering at what deals Western governments have made with various companies, and what deals the Zelenskyy regime has made with those governments and companies. Who exactly is on the hook for exactly what?
Here in America we saw municipalities like Detroit nearly go totally under, and that was without its factories getting bombed, or its workers getting yanked off the streets and sent to get slaughtered in mine fields. The lesson learned from Detroit is that the time to stop a death spiral is before it even starts. Detroit had the State of Michigan, and the Federal government, as a backstop, and a lot of its debt was ameliorated by the power of the courts and coercive negotiations. The pensions of its auto workers were infused by the Obama administration.
Ukraine has vast assets in natural resources while Detroit merely had business opportunities to entice investors, so there's no great comparison between the two, especially given that Ukraine is a vast territory. But the solutions to their economic dilemmas are markedly similar in one respect. They both involve vast infusions of cash that are hard to justify as being good investments in the short term, or as good investments in a strict business sense.
Keeping them viable is done because it's unthinkable politically to not do so. But the cost still gets haggled over, and imo sooner or later the cost of keeping Ukraine afloat is going to come front and center. And following on the heels of that will be discussion of the cost of rebuilding Ukraine. Two of the big questions there will be, who foots the bill, and what can they expect in return?
That discussion could be an amazing spectacle.
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 6 2023 17:39 utc | 43
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 6 2023 16:35 utc | 44
And what is "your ideological disposition" amirite? Are you basing in your superior moral stance while the people of Donbass you profess to love are still bombarded by Ukro-fascist goons and their masters? Is this "Christian" conviction validated when Putin's own people, like Tatarsky and Dugina (and these are known individuals) are murdered with impunity?
Are you suggesting there is some form of Christian charity involved in letting the apatride Russian elites - those who put to shamethe Latin American equivalents by their post-Soviet lack of patriotism - skate, toor where they please and then return to the motherland if things aren't to their liking? Do you even comprehend how simple, patriotic Russians feel when they see a obcenely wealthy bimbo return to the country in a Rolls Royce after her early escapade?
It is no wonder that people bring up Stalin as an example of a dedicated Commander-in-Chief nowadays, when even Russian strippers are more patriotic than so many of the Russian elites. And yet, the people still have to endure the spectacle of parasites like Vladimir Potanin increasing the property during the war by swallowing former western corporate assets for a dime (yes, the same scumbag who made himself a billionaire in the 90s through treasonous chicanery and now opposes nationalizations, while the US State Department hardly enacted any sanctions against him, I wonder why), when others struggle with the losses of their kin, often in a brutal, publicized manner by Ukro-Nazis or even with financial difficulties.
So tone down your ravings about a superior morality when the policies that are supposedly driven by it are carried by many while the chosen few can roll as previously without having to meaningfully express any sort of patriotic life stance with its attended consequences.
Posted by: Constantine | Jul 6 2023 17:42 utc | 44
Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 6 2023 17:07 utc | 38
Agree about the macro inhibitors and inertia, but the poor are not being squeezed as much as the middle-class, whom the ruling elite both loathe and fear. Remember, it’s from the middle-classes most revolutions are initiated and led, the masses just go along with someone who might alleviate their burden, however self-inflicted it might be. I agree with your conclusion that the status quo is unsustainable, a fact the elites seem to viscerally recognise, hence their attempts at ever greater control mechanisms. But, as a realistic optimist, I think we might be seeing the coalescence of a real publicly driven ‘revolution’ against the narrative’s imposed orthodoxy.
Posted by: Milites | Jul 6 2023 17:44 utc | 45
Ghost of Zanon | Jul 6 2023 15:02 utc | 16
Once a year is nothing. The 800 number is wishful thinking, 50-100 more realistic.
Compared to what is in Belgorod tonight is absolutely nothing.
Try again next year
Posted by: rk | Jul 6 2023 18:06 utc | 46
Scorpion | Jul 6 2023 17:07 utc, who proposed that he had "resistance to the term 'US Empire.'"
Perhaps a better definition would be an acknowledgment that Washington DC represents the 'Imperial Centre' of the world-wide-credit-empire because the polity, for want of a better word, has been 'captured' by the economic elites. The USA is consequently 'the front' for that class. As a state it no longer operates by the People for the People. However, its reach is world-wide and that world - as long they use $'s - pays for the USA's upkeep. As far as I can see that describes every empire there has ever been. Radhika Desai and Michael Hudson explain the mechanics of imperial extraction using the example of GB and India during the 'Raj' in the Geopolitics series of programmes they did over last few months.
By comparison, despite some suggestions by the usual suspects, the polities of Russia and China remain seperate from the economic elites of those states and do not favour their interests over those of The People.
Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 6 2023 18:15 utc | 47
Russian hackers have supposedly deleted AFU database for information on conscriptable men and it's doubtful how much if at all can be recovered. That combined with (like mentioned earlier) the need to go search for 80 % of conscripts might throw some sand in the mobilization machinery.
https://twitter.com/onlydjole/status/1676984639703900162
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 6 2023 18:20 utc | 48
The tally of dead or wounded today is 770 aro., similar to most days. What is most unpalatable is the knowledge that there are those who just don’t care about this loss of life, or even worse, are glad about it.
Every day that goes by, this atrocious loss of life, the responsibility of which falls squarely on the US administration of death and NATO, can easily be stopped. Russia does own some responsibility too. By slow walking this SMO they prolong the conflict and suffering. Expert opinions conclude that Russia is more than a match for NATO, and that Russia is still approaching this war with limited resources. One big push. Take the whole country and secure it. Then determine what to do about perhaps allowing Hungary or Poland some land they have owned historically.
Destroy the NAZI regime completely and the country can begin to recover.
Posted by: Áobh O’Sheachnasaigh | Jul 6 2023 18:40 utc | 49
Posted by: MajorMajor | Jul 6 2023 18:40 utc | 50
Ukrainian army was more powerful than the US army. US and British army is welcome to go die on the same Zaporozhye fields if they want. Those defensive lines weren't built only AFU in mind.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 6 2023 18:47 utc | 50
@49 aos
I'm thinking a big push to natos borders doesn't help too much for russia. Because then their supply lines would be stretched where they could easily be rolled by a nato expeditionary force.
Back east in the donbass the opposite is true and it forces nato to come to them with their equipment and special forces where they can be identified and destroyed before they can start in on them.
Also by leaving ukraine as a space to fight in they can target nato resources outside of the article 5 territory leaving nato with no option for all out war.
Finally it leave nato with a Giant black hole of ukraine to support, with its infamous corruption. The costs there have already bankrupted the EU, which is now panhandling for more contributions from its constituent states and the US is groaning somewhat as well.
It's a brutal bloody strategy but it can work and so far is. The Ukrainians being killed are unfortunate but there's no help for them now, it can't be helped as the Russians might say.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jul 6 2023 18:49 utc | 51
Milites @ 46
I agree with your conclusion that the status quo is unsustainable
I also agree unsustainable, but that doesn't mean it can't be sustained for decades more. One could argue capitalism has never been sustainable going back to the Luddites, and yet they keep sustaining it through 300ys of tolerable, bad, and disastrous.
The rulers have the prerogative of power that's exclusive to them, they can use any method small and big, they can use reward and punishment, positives and negative, corruption, malfeasance, immorality, threats and lies, are equally valid to any social acceptable means, even smart or stupid tactics does not matter as they are free to jury rig on the fly any consequences, and of course they use the hard work of the working and managerial class against them as they extract taxes for their repression, making the working class punch themselves in the face over and over. And, most importantly they have class solidarity, historical memory (aristocracy) - cultural hegemony, all the 99% have is revolution, and that's a bitch to organize, solidify, and effect.
Long, slow, hard road ahead. I doubt most of the geezers here will see any improvement in their lifetime, in fact the opposite.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 6 2023 18:50 utc | 52
Posted by: Áobh O’Sheachnasaigh | Jul 6 2023 18:40 utc | 49
Not doing the SlOMO would have come with far greater destruction of infrastructure and brought about a frontless insurgency that would have killed even more civilians. By doing what they have been it limits the damage and loss of life. A ten year long insurgency like Afghanistan was what the west planned for not a strait up fight.
Posted by: badjoke | Jul 6 2023 19:02 utc | 53
NATO’s Scorched Earth in Ukraine
There is enough evidence now to satisfy the Global Majority that U.S. regime change and controlling operations in Ukraine since 2013 have been above all cynically aimed at weakening and destabilising Russia. Remembering their own viciously exploited colonial history, the Global Majority are glad these Western efforts are failing.
Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jul 6 2023 19:14 utc | 54
Destroy the NAZI regime completely and the country can begin to recover.
Posted by: Áobh O’Sheachnasaigh | Jul 6 2023 18:40 utc | 49
The nazi regime is run from the nazis in Wash. DC. That is the regime that must be destroyed to have peace or recovery.
And the most effective way is to destroy their power by destroying the petrodollar, (satisfying as it might be to the people of the world [including the people of flyover USA] to see them actually Kinzhalled.)
Posted by: wagelaborer | Jul 6 2023 19:24 utc | 55
Larry Johnson has posted a good crystallisation of how we got here and where we might be going: https://sonar21.com/background-paper-russia-united-states-ukraine/
A sample:
It is not surprising that Washington cannot come up with a coherent grand strategy, or even cope with the questions and troubles that are piling up. The bleak outlook evident in John Mearsheimer’s recent manifesto is apparent in the title: The Darkness Ahead: Where the Ukraine War Is Headed. A similar pessimism is found in the current Foreign Affairs article by Samuel Charap, of RAND Corporation, entitled: An Unwinable War: Washington Needs an Endgame in Ukraine.
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 6 2023 19:31 utc | 56
Determine to escalate.
Or all that's left?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/06/world/europe/ukraine-cluster-munitions.html
Posted by: jpc | Jul 6 2023 16:51 utc | 36
escalate may not be the right word: according to the landmine and cluster ammunition monitor, Ukraine owned 700000 tons of cluster ammunition in 2011, 35% of it's total ammunition stocks.They destroyed 10-20000 tons per year, leaving more than half a million tons at the start of the war.
Half a million tons of cluster ammunition.
Now they are begging for more. Raising the question what happened to the 500000 tons of banned cluster ammunition they owned a year and a half ago...
If Selensky really fired 30000 tons of cluster ammunition per month since the start of the war, whatever amount the US may be able to ship over will hardly be an escalation...
Numbers from http://www.the-monitor.org/en-gb/reports/2021/ukraine/cluster-munition-ban-policy/
Posted by: Marvin | Jul 6 2023 19:34 utc | 57
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 6 2023 18:50 utc | 52
Your second paragraph could describe any entrenched system of power, including communism. I’m more more optimistic, given the paths of resistance are becoming more numerous, though based on capitalistic principles. Boycotts, new issue based parties (Dutch farmers) more migration from narrative media to predictive media, greater rejection of official mantras by younger generations etc. I think the problem socialists always run up against is that capitalism traditionally has delivered what working class people in the UK want, and any changes are based on a far more astute understanding, about the nature of humanity, than some of ‘their saviours’ who definitely reside on the lower levels of the ivory tower. I’ve spent more than a decade working with the UK’s working class and can quite understand how their stubborn refusal to fit into neat categories, prescribed by Marxist orthodoxy, drives Euro-socialists to distraction. In fact, the social attitudes of the working class are not dissimilar to those, ironically, of the upper class, it’s the middle classes that have always been the ham in the sandwich here, since they arose in the latter half of the medieval period.
Posted by: Milites | Jul 6 2023 19:35 utc | 58
Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 6 2023 18:15 utc | 47
Scorpion | Jul 6 2023 17:07 utc, who proposed that he had "resistance to the term 'US Empire.'"
Perhaps a better definition would be.....
====================
Yes, well said. I should have added one sentence perhaps: the term 'United States' presupposes a group of sovereign states agreeing to a Union. At this point, I don't think the States are what they should be because of Federal overreach, and the Federal Union isn't what it should be because of Criminal Power Cartel overreach. So I find it an increasingly meaningless term.
I believe that technically the United States is also a Corporation which is that which is now the USG and Administration. So even legally and technically what is now running the US is not the original United States but a new corporate front.
It would be nice to have a frequently used term that didn't reference the words of the original template. It may always have been compromised by bad actors from the get-go but it actually meant something to millions for a time. By the end of last century there were over 150 democracies inspired by its example whereas two hundred years earlier there was only one or two (US, Switzerland?). It was not all bad.
Generally, I tend to think of these things in terms of how they involved living people, human beings. I don't really care about the constructs themselves. America was a dream and aspiration that many gave their lives for whether or not it was what they believed it to be. I honor those aspirations and sacrifices and whatever it is that America/United States has become now it is no longer attuned to those aspirations but has been captured by those who profit from deception.
As some might have noticed in other threads, I high-balled ucranian casualties (and the figure was close to hack”s numbers) from the sociology institute of Kiev.
Nevertheless, if those numbers are true I would expect to see little to no. Un-injured, un-uniformed MEN pretty anywhere outside of Kiev .
Any videos analysis or personal information about that would be welcome.
Thank you.
Posted by: Newbie | Jul 6 2023 19:37 utc | 60
Posted by: Milites | Jul 6 2023 19:35 utc | 58
“migration from narrative media to predictive media”
Could you please define ‘predictive media’? Google wasn’t my friend :(
Maybe the predictions shape the narrative? :)
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Jul 6 2023 19:45 utc | 61
Ukraine is being carved up by big business like a turkey at Christmas.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jul 6 2023 19:46 utc | 62
Why hasn't Russia destroyed US funded (more than $200M) biological laboratories, the ones dealing with infectious disease in Ukraine?
Trust in the Neo-Nazi regime or more generally trust in human nature in wartime?
Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jul 6 2023 16:07 utc | 23
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The US will love that. Then there will be no evidence of biological crimes. At least that would be my guess.
Posted by: Ed | Jul 6 2023 19:48 utc | 63
Posted by: Marvin | Jul 6 2023 19:34 utc | 57
Given that both sides have already been using them I don't see much of an escalation.
Here is the UN on Russian use: https://news.un.org/en/story/2022/03/1115092
Here is a report on Ukrainian use: https://www.hrw.org/news /2023/07/06/ukraine-civilian-deaths-cluster-munitions#:~:text=A%20United%20Nations%20report%20also,examined%20is%20most%20likely%20greater.
Posted by: Ed2 | Jul 6 2023 19:57 utc | 64
Scorpion | Jul 6 2023 19:36 utc, I agree with your sentiments. Just trying to identify the Beast we are up against at the present time.
Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 6 2023 19:57 utc | 65
More assertiveness from the Global Majority; from Sputnik: https://sputnikglobe.com/20230706/latin-american-nations-reject-pro-kiev-position-ahead-of-eu-celac-summit-1111706206.html
Latin American Nations Reject Pro-Kiev Position Ahead of EU-CELAC SummitAhead of a summit later this month between the European Union (EU) and the Community of Latin American and Caribbean States (CELAC), the two blocs are disputing a number of passages in drafts of a joint declaration they hope to issue at the summit.
As part of the preparations for the Brussels summit on July 17-18, the two blocs have sent back and forth several drafts of the joint declaration, with one side adding lines while another deletes them. Of particular contention is an effort by the EU to turn the summit into another Western denunciation of Russia and endorsement of support for Ukraine.
The draft sent to CELAC by the EU reportedly included several paragraphs about the conflict in Ukraine, but the 33 countries of CELAC “deleted everything about Ukraine” when they sent back their version of the statement, according to one EU diplomat who spoke with European media.
nstead, CELAC’s version called for both blocs to “advocate for serious and constructive diplomatic solutions to the current conflict in Europe, by peaceful means, which guarantees the sovereignty and security of us all, as well as regional and international peace, stability and security,” according to one outlet that viewed the document.
In addition, CELAC has also rejected an appearance by Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky at the Brussels summit, who was invited by Spanish Prime Minister Pedro Sanchez.
"He invited me, but some Latin American leaders blocked the invitation," Zelensky told reporters last week.
While the EU and NATO nations have managed to rally some of their allies to condemn Russia’s special operation in Ukraine, the vast majority of the planet has refused to heed their call to condemn and isolate Moscow. Relations between Russia and Latin America have grown in recent years, and the region has been a beneficiary of Europe’s boycott of Russian energy exports, some of which were redirected toward Latin American markets, such as diesel fuel.
But Ukraine wasn’t the only thing CELAC changed about the draft joint declaration: the bloc also added a passage calling for reparations for the African slave trade, in which Europeans shipped some 12.5 million enslaved Africans across the Atlantic between the 16th and 19th centuries to perform manual labor on plantations and in mines in their colonies.
“We recognize the need for appropriate measures to be taken to restore the dignity of the victims, including reparations and compensation to help to heal our collective memory, and to reverse the legacies of underdevelopment,” the proposed draft declaration text states. It specifically notes “issues of healthcare, education, cultural development, and food security.”
“We acknowledge and profoundly regret the untold suffering inflicted on millions of men, women and children as a result of the trans-Atlantic slave trade of Africans,” the text states.
There’s a bit more background at this link: https://www.euractiv.com/section/global-europe/news/leak-latin-american-countries-push-back-on-ukraine-eu-agenda-ahead-of-joint-summit/ including the following:
Over the past year, Europeans have sought to reinforce ties with their partners around the world to rally support for the international rules-based order Russia dismissed in its attack on Ukraine.Brussels also has made an attempt to enhance political and economic ties with different world regions, including Latin America, with EU senior officials stressing the ‘like-mindedness’ with regional partners on a range of key policy areas.
However, the majority of Latin American countries have repeatedly said they wished not to be dragged into positioning themselves in the war they continue to see as a primarily ‘European problem’.
While Brazil’s President Lula da Silva has attempted to spearhead their own peace plan for Ukraine, senior Brazilian officials, joined counterparts from Ukraine, G7, India, Saudi Arabia, South Africa and Turkey last month to discuss efforts of bringing different perspectives together.
The summit cannot be ‘only’ about the Europeans calling on Latin American countries to support Europe’s fight with the Ukrainians, one Latin American diplomat told EURACTIV, highlighting the region’s own agenda – socio-economic development, environmental protection, and the prospect of a long-faltering trade deal with Mercosur countries Brazil, Argentina, Paraguay and Uruguay.
The counter-proposal the CELAC countries sent to Brussels shows “we are not on the same wavelength, or that the EU needs to work harder to convey its messages and not simply when it suits it,” an eighth EU diplomat said, pointing out that all references to fight against corruption had been erased.
In sharing what the Europeans see as a bold proposal, “it looks like they want to be perceived as equal partners,” they added.
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 6 2023 19:58 utc | 66
How important is the exchange rate of the Ruble to the Euro or the Dollar right now?
My opinion is not very.
If the Ruble was to continue to fall against the Euro or the Dollar, it might eventually mean something?
Opinions?
Posted by: Ed2 | Jul 6 2023 20:03 utc | 67
Today I'm wondering what an honest deep dive into the economic outlook of Ukraine looks like. What are Ukraine's immutable liabilities? What are its unencumbered assets? What are its mortgaged assets?
The area governed by Kiev has no economy to speak of. Everything was wrecked after 2014. For example In 2021; 90% of wage earners grossed less than 500€/month. 30% earned around 250€/month.
Talent ? Between 2014-2021 - 8 million people fled overseas. (5 million to EU and 3 million to RF) Since 2022 another 8 million fled ( roughly at same ratio)
7 million people live in the DPR/LPR/Crimea. There ain’t no talent. And no one is returning.
The Ukraine was the most prosperous part of Russia. After 2014, it became the poorest place in Europe. Poorer than Albania !
All the industry and potential fir economic activity in the DPR/LPR/Crimea.
Kiev’s gov’t has been hovering billions from the various IMF + World Bank style lenders also since 2014. It’s beyond a basket case.
Posted by: Exile | Jul 6 2023 20:03 utc | 68
And that is why it is instructive to count the percentage of the population fighting on either side. Somehow, invaders rank just a tiny bit lower. Wonder if the Glory of Putin is not so high as their children’s children?
##################
You're taking a very Western perspective on this, hyper-focusing on Putin, when it's really about the greater Russian state, which has seen many wars over the last 1,000 years.
For Americans, the SMO is a big deal. For Russians, in a cultural sense, this is just another day living on the edge of Europe.
Continue to count the %s.
I will count the territory taken, the equipment destroyed, and the relative strengths of the currencies.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 6 2023 16:31 utc | 32
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OK, I am confused. How can Love Donbass be responding to "Posted by: Membrum Virile | Jul 6 2023 16:24 utc | 39", when Love Donbass is at comment # 32.
And again, at Love Donbass | Jul 6 2023 16:35 utc @ 33 is again responding to Membrum Virile | Jul 6 2023 16:27 utc @ 40.
Can someone explain this? I just returned to the site after being away for a few hours. Did "b" remove a bunch of comments? Was someone getting nasty?
Posted by: Ed | Jul 6 2023 20:09 utc | 69
West of England Andy | Jul 6 2023 19:31 utc
West of England Andy | Jul 6 2023 19:58 utc
Thanks for those two posts. What was that saying about things happening slowly until it happeens all at once? ;o)
Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 6 2023 20:12 utc | 70
Ed | Jul 6 2023 20:09 utc
something like that, but it has managed a brief comeback a few posts back IIRC
Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 6 2023 20:16 utc | 71
How important is the exchange rate of the Ruble to the Euro or the Dollar right now?My opinion is not very.
Posted by: Ed2 | Jul 6 2023 20:03 utc | 67
Agreed that the ₽/$ exchange rate is of no real importance. For one thing, Russia pays for its military equipment and weapons in rubles, so, in US$ terms the weapons represent excellent value for money!
Not entirely sure how Ukraine intends to settle its Western debts in hryvnia though...
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 6 2023 20:17 utc | 72
But Ukraine wasn’t the only thing CELAC changed about the draft joint declaration: the bloc also added a passage calling for reparations for the African slave trade, in which Europeans shipped some 12.5 million enslaved Africans across the Atlantic between the 16th and 19th centuries to perform manual labor on plantations and in mines in their colonies.
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 6 2023 19:58 utc | 66
Some estimates put the number of people trafficked by the west+israel at hundreds of thousands per year, or even more. Currently. Now, in 2023. And of course not a word from Amnesty or anyone else either. The slavery business never stopped since the khazar times.
Posted by: Mike | Jul 6 2023 20:20 utc | 73
Posted by: Ed | Jul 6 2023 20:09 utc
My nastiness can be seen in the comments by LoveDonbass.
Sorry about those, I try be be less confrontative in the future.
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Jul 6 2023 20:23 utc | 74
38 "That's why I have resistance to the term 'US Empire.' The 'US' has been captured, long ago. "
Excellent analysis, Scorpion, thank you.
US is only the façade of Empire like the Wizard of Oz- behind the curtain are the real leaders - the bankers in the City of London. Bankers (ancient Greek, Roman, Italian, German) have been around for millennia but in 1694 when they loaned 1.2 million pounds to King William III and created the Bank of England they unionized.
In 1759 at the Battle of Plassey Robert Clive, through the East India Company secured much Indian gold which really got the City of London going.
Yes, these secretive bankers thrive on misery or prosperity- they are clever, ruthless, nationless-and certainly Godless.
Julian @ 2
Anyone know (or guess?) when the Russian offensive will happen?
RESPONSE: Look to when the current AFU offensive will be neutralized by Russia. As long as the AFU is coming to them, why would Russia need to advance?
Such an approach also gives the Russians the opportunity to improve its military in multiple ways.
Posted by: young | Jul 6 2023 20:41 utc | 76
Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jul 6 2023 20:12 utc | 70
You’re welcome. In turn, while I’m here, thanks to @Aleph_Null | Jul 6 2023 19:14 utc | 54 for the Consortium News piece.
Posted by: Mike | Jul 6 2023 20:20 utc | 73
Well, our host b has made clear a current hawkish approach to off-topic matters, so further discussion on the subject you have highlighted would be better off in the non-Ukraine Open Thread here: https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/07/open-not-ukraine-thread-2023-160.html#comments
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 6 2023 20:52 utc | 77
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 6 2023 17:39 utc
"Ukraine has vast assets in natural resources while Detroit merely had business opportunities to entice investors, so there's no great comparison between the two, especially given that Ukraine is a vast territory."
Detroit was ruined by black people and insane Democrat politics. That's all there is to it. It was one of the greatest cities on earth until blacks got political power. This has happened over and over and over in America, yet the truth can't be spoken, even if everyone knows it. Non-Americans often don't understand the racial dynamics of America, nor how once blacks get beyond a certain percentage of a city's population everything falls apart.
As for Ukraine, it's never been a "poor" country. It has vast wealth. But since the fall of the USSR, Ukraine was looted by the usual Jewish gangsters, who own pretty much everything of any worth, and suck it dry. Ukraine is an exploited country, not a poor one. All the wealth is stolen by less than 1% of the population. Even to the point of huge amounts of organ harvesting, human trafficking and sex slavery, even of children, all run through Tel Aviv.
If Russia takes over the whole of Ukraine and ejects the oligarch set, the prospects for Ukraine are good. Less good now, of course, since Zelensky has slaughtered so much of the male population. All the better to exploit the women and children, however, if we end up with a rump Ukraine scenario. The human traffickers are already licking their lips at the prospects.
Posted by: ASensibleMan | Jul 6 2023 20:53 utc | 78
Posted by: Ed2 | Jul 6 2023 20:03 utc | 67
If the ruble lost value to the currencies of nations it imports from, then businesses in Russia that are eyeing the market share of imports might see an opportunity with that, though before investing heavily they'd likely, imo, want to research how long the ruble would be in its current state. Once the global economy perks up Russia's natural resources will be in high demand.
P.S. As long as Russia's work force, managerial class, and investors, are of good spirits and with optimism for the future then imo the Russian economy will do very well. Bleeding edge tech isn't needed for lots of prosperity in a country like Russia, and as long as they keep the friends abroad that they have now their economy won't have to struggle with adjusting to sanctions. Though of course the Russian economy will boom once sanctions get lifted. Russia being a land of great opportunity being part of the reason the West wants to control it.
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 6 2023 20:57 utc | 79
Posted by: Membrum Virile | Jul 6 2023 19:45 utc | 61
You won’t, it’s a term I use to describe social media sites that eschew narrative for analytical trawls of open source material, makes predictions which are then are largely proven correct: the failure of sanctions on Ukraine, the failure of Ukraine’s armed forces to alter the dynamics of modern warfare, the COVID responses being unscientific, the Biden corruption, the DS’s legislative attempts to remove Trump, the weaponisation of institutions to persecute political opponents, etc. Some of the websites I frequent are sometimes making predictions six months in advance, which are accurate, and have been ridicules as conspiracy theories. So, the MSM is largely a narrative that twists news to fit, the predictive media are more analysts who have filled the vacuum.
It’s also a way of distinguishing between the new media’s grifters, braggarts and phoney’s, often working hand in glove with corrupted institutions, to pretend that the professional politicians offer genuine democratic alternatives. I only ever consume the MSM to know what the enemy is thinking and to act as a check on any confirmation bias that might naturally begin to accumulate synaptically. Reading it though, I’m always reassured that my fundamental analysis of the opposition is sound and that they offer few, if any, solutions.
Posted by: Milites | Jul 6 2023 20:59 utc | 80
"Raising the question what happened to the 500000 tons of banned cluster ammunition they owned a year and a half ago..."
I dont think they hit the black market. There is very little reporting of Ukraine using cluster munitions in the MSM. Ukraine has the new USA x-3578. Any injuries to civilians from Soviet era cluster munitions must be the work of Russia right? Hey since all parties are deeply concerned with the well being of the Ukrainian people all parties will agree no cluster munitions or depleted uranium right? "collateral damage". Nothing is off limits to enforce the rules based order! Those plastic leaf nano bomblets attractive to children are for freedom! What child would not give his/her arm leg or life for freedom? We must keep the principles spoken by Madeline Albright in mind as we consider such things as unzipping ZNPP. All unmaimed children will enjoy freedom! Report to sniffer in chief for show and tell or get a little elective surgery. Their choice!
Posted by: sillydog | Jul 6 2023 21:07 utc | 81
I’m wondering, did the Ukrainian’s use a stealth variant of the Tochka-U missile to hit the ZNPP?
Posted by: Milites | Jul 6 2023 21:12 utc | 82
I’m wondering, did the Ukrainian’s use a stealth variant of the Tochka-U missile to hit the ZNPP?
Posted by: Milites | Jul 6 2023 21:12 utc | 82
It’s the new, previously untested Schrödinger variant...
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 6 2023 21:20 utc | 83
I didn't realise that there were those quantities.
But on the escalation or desperation observation.
The article attached is worth a read regarding consequences decades on.
Oh and that other contribution DU munitions.
https://www.globalresearch.ca/cluster-bombs-ukraine-warning-from-kosovo/5824884
Posted by: sillydog | Jul 6 2023 21:07 utc | 81
Posted by: Marvin | Jul 6 2023 19:34 utc | 57
Posted by: jpc | Jul 6 2023 21:20 utc | 84
West of England Andy | Jul 6 2023 19:58 utc | 66--
Thanks for providing that news. Its substance was remarked upon by Marai Zakharova during the Q&A portion of her weekly briefing today. Specifically, it's an example of what Russia calls "artificial Ukrainization." Maria's explanation is long, specific and like Lavrov has several examples. I include the Q as it provides some context, and some might have read the UNESCO issue I posted on the week in review thread:
Question: On July 3, the Foreign Ministry's website published your comment on the return of the United States to UNESCO. You have written about the risks of the United States' destabilizing work at UNESCO and the risk of "artificial Ukrainization." What examples of "artificial Ukrainization" do you expect and the risks of destructive work?Maria Zakharova: Let me explain what "artificial Ukrainisation" is. The situation around Ukraine, given its multicomponent nature and the fact that it is just one of the manifestations of a hybrid war, is naturally the central topic of all discussion platforms. This is the main point of attraction for the attention of the entire international community. When we talk about "artificial Ukrainization", we are talking about the fact that those international mechanisms and international structures, those existing tools for solving very specific, substantive problems are skillfully filled with the theme of Ukraine. But not from the point of view of finding a way out of the situation, but from the point of view of supporting, as they say in the West, the "narrative", the ideology of total support for the Kyiv regime and imposing a Western vision of the situation on everyone else. For example, a topic in the field of health care is being discussed, and still someone (representatives of the Western world, the USA, Great Britain, France) begins to talk about the situation in Ukraine not in the context of health care or what is happening there, but from the point of view of a "political appendage". In our childhood there was such a thing as "load". When goods were in short supply, they gave something scarce, and then they talked about the fact that it was imperative to buy what was not needed, "in the load". If you want to buy an interesting book, you are given an unnecessary one. If you want to buy a scarce product, then you are given an unnecessary one, but not for free, you must buy it. That's the same. The topic of Ukraine is given by the West "in the load" to everything that the international community discusses and tries to solve, as a "political appendage". This is unacceptable. It kills all the work.
Regarding Washington's approach to the situation at UNESCO. This is another prime example of confrontational thinking. Just think about it: it's the same story. Now they talked about "forced Ukrainization", and here - the imposition of Sinophobia and the use of existing mechanisms to counter someone. How can this be? A country should be a member of the organization of which it has been or wants to be, with some constructive intentions, with a desire to create, create, add value, and give a positive result. But it is the United States that professes the "logic of destruction" that it will be everywhere where it can counteract. In this case, they were going to oppose China. [My Emphasis]
There're several more paragrpahs on the UNESCO situation I cut since the definition was fairly well given. Such Western behavior merely helps drive nations to other multilateral organizations like SCO, BRICS, EAEU, and others, a phenomenon leading to what Lukashenko at the SCO meeting called the Global Globe that's eager to leave the West behind to wallow in its pig trough.
@ Scorpion, §84:
Your observations about the United States apply to Europe, which started off as a free association, a common market.
Of course, the politicos and power-mongers couldn´t wait to build a centralized empire out of it - and hence the rot started.
England has left. Next will probably be Austria & Hungary. Or it may blow apart suddenly if France or Germany throw off their current shackles, which is looking increasingly likely.
So maybe there´s hope for Europe yet - and America.
They´ve both just got to forget all that claptrap about being "global players" etc. That´s the language of the corporate Mafiosi.
Posted by: John Marks | Jul 6 2023 21:27 utc | 86
Well, the Biden administration just oked the sale/donation of cluster bombs to the Ukraine. Expect the civilian body count in Russian controlled areas to skyrocket soon.
Posted by: bored | Jul 6 2023 21:31 utc | 87
Detroit was ruined by black people and insane Democrat politics. That's all there is to it. It was one of the greatest cities on earth until blacks got political power. This has happened over and over and over in America, yet the truth can't be spoken, even if everyone knows it. Non-Americans often don't understand the racial dynamics of America, nor how once blacks get beyond a certain percentage of a city's population everything falls apart.
Posted by: ASensibleMan | Jul 6 2023 20:53 utc | 78
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I would postulate that white flight and anti-unionism is the reason for Detroit's demise as an automobile powerhouse, but that is just my view. If you want to go into detail, we can take to the non-Ukraine thread.
Posted by: Ed | Jul 6 2023 21:42 utc | 90
@Julian | Jul 6 2023 14:08 utc | 2
Russia won't give up the 10:1 kill advantage until after the NATO meting coming up. If Russia begins their big push before that, it would increase the support of NATO countries for Ukraine at the meeting.
Posted by: barstool | Jul 6 2023 22:13 utc | 92
Posted by: John Marks | Jul 6 2023 21:27 utc | 86
They´ve both just got to forget all that claptrap about being "global players" etc. That´s the language of the corporate Mafiosi.
Nothing wrong with being Global Players. Where everyone competes on a level field. As long as there is not one team making up all the rules. Then breaking them as they see fit.
That is what got us into this mess.
Posted by: Golddigger | Jul 6 2023 22:16 utc | 93
Golddigger | Jul 6 2023 22:16 utc | 93
Anyone into such childish behavior as "competition," let alone someone who sees it as the essence of society, should probably get back to doing useful physical labor instead of destroying other people's time with their emotions and judgments.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen | Jul 6 2023 22:26 utc | 94
@karlof1 85
it doesn´t fit 100, so sry - but the UNESCO thing reminded me of Nicolai Petro´s detailed account of how Kiev did, or rather did NOT deal with the COVID sit. in Ukraine in his book "Tragedy of Ukraine".
It was an absolute utter desaster.
Now if anybody needs just one example to see and understand the UKR madness and idiocy of that government - beyond any doubt and talk of RU propaganda etc. - this is the prime example.
The Z administration messed up big time merely for reasons of racism, of nationalism, of jingoism. They failed their own population in a question of science due to everything BUT scientific thinking.
They neglected RU Sputnik vaccines AFTER meeting with US Embassy personnel, claiming that the vaccine is racist.
They then wanted Chinese, but eventually refrained after pressure and when they came back the Chinese had enough trouble of their own and said no.
Finally they went to the British and naturally the Brits gave them the finger and asked for a shitload of money (unlike the RUs who have always behaved benevolently in comparison).
They went to the Indians (who might have not been first choice since they are not exactly "white".)
and so on.
All this chaos while the population was ailing under the destroyed health system.
So this similiar irrational and destructive behaviour I observe in the instrumentalisation of UNESCO now.
(And of course virtually every other UN branch.)
Pathetic.
Posted by: AG | Jul 6 2023 22:29 utc | 95
Ed | Jul 6 2023 21:42 utc | 90
detroit!
i have spent weekends wandering there diuring multi-week business events!
at one time they built great lakes steel ships in detroit!
in one section of detroit is the skeleton of the packard automobile plant. it is 20 city blocks (1 mile) long and 4 city blocks wide, with a rail line running through it!
the materials for a packard automobile came in one end and packard cars came out the other!
what killed detroit was sub-contracting out all the components so they only did assembly. that and japanese quality!
also the power usa' industry had while the rest of the developed world was recovering from ww ii!
certainly a large number of blacks came north for better life, but the demise of us industry is more the government and external troubles.
when the good jobs went.....
Posted by: paddy | Jul 6 2023 22:32 utc | 96
West of England Andy | Jul 6 2023 19:58 utc | 66
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Thanks for providing that news.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 6 2023 21:27 utc | 85
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I agree with karlof1, it was a very good read, very encouraging.
Karl, above @ 89 you said:" We have an ignorant racist flea. And OT as well."
I understand the "racist flea," but at the risk of showing my own ignorance, what is an OT? I have seen it before on MoA, but didn't get the meaning.
Posted by: Ed | Jul 6 2023 22:40 utc | 97
Its too soon barflies to relax our vigilance in light of the upcoming NATO meeting in Vilnius (July 11-12), during which the Kiev government will be under intense pressure to show progress by whatever means possible. Ukraine is likely to continue making severe provocations up until the start of the meeting. Moreover, additional informational and psychological assaults are imminent.
Posted by: HERMIUS | Jul 6 2023 22:44 utc | 98
Posted by: Concerned Citizen | Jul 6 2023 22:26 utc | 94
So I take it you are a big fan of socialism.
Posted by: Golddigger | Jul 6 2023 22:52 utc | 99
Some, like Mearsheimer, say Russia needs to occupy all of Ukraine to be successful.
I disagree. All Russia needs to do, is make such an example of Ukraine, that nobody who sees Ukraine wants to be in its place.
Posted by: Passerby | Jul 6 2023 22:57 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
⚡️Russian Defence Ministry report on the progress of the special military operation (6 July 2023)
▫️The Russian Federation Armed Forces launched a concentrated strike with long-range sea-based high precision weapons against temporary deployment sites of AFU personnel and foreign mercenaries, as well as storage sites for foreign-manufactured armoured vehicles.
All the assigned targets have been neutralised. The goal of the attack has been reached. The enemy strategic reserves have sustained significant damage.
▫️In Donetsk direction, as a result of active actions by the defending units of the Yug Group of Forces, 9 enemy attacks have been successfully repelled close to Pervomayskoye, Vodyanoye, Opytnoye, Krasnogorovka, Severnoye (Donetsk People's Republic) and Zolotaryovka (Lugansk People's Republic).
In addition, enemy manpower and hardware concentration areas have been hit to the west of Kleshcheyevka (Donetsk People's Republic).
The enemy losses were up to 385 Ukrainian servicemen, 1 tank, 3 armoured fighting vehicles, 8 motor vehicles, 2 D-20 howitzers and 2 Polish-manufactured Krab self-propelled artillery systems.
▫️In Krasny Liman direstion, as a result of coordinated actions by the units of the Tsentr Group of Forces, Operational-Tactical tactical and Army aviation, artillery and heavy flamethrower systems, 4 enemy attacks have been repelled close to Yampolovka, Torskoye (Donetsk People's Republic) and Kovalyovka (Lugansk People's Republic).
In addition, AFU manpower and hardware concentration areas have been hit near Yampolovka, Torskoye (Donetsk People's Republic), Novoyegorovka and Chervonaya Dibrova (Lugansk People's Republic).
The actions of 2 Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups have been suppressed close to Nevskoye and Belogorovka (Lugansk People's Republic). The enemy losses were over 90 Ukrainian servicemen killed and wounded, 3 armoured fighting vehicles and 4 pickup trucks.
▫️In South Donetsk and Zaporozhye directions, as a result of active actions by the defence units of the Vostok Group of Forces, aviation, artillery and heavy firing systems, enemy manpower and hardware concentration areas have been hit close to Rovnopol, Makarovka, Novodonetskoye and Urozhaynoye (Donetsk People's Republic).
Also, the activities of 2 Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups have been suppressed near Urozhaynoye (Donetsk People's Republic) and Dorozhnyanka (Zaporozhye region).
The enemy losses were up to 165 Ukrainian servicemen, 3 armoured fighting vehicles, including 1 U.S.-manufactured Stryker armoured personnel carrier, 3 motor vehicles, 1 Grad MLRS vehicle, 1 French-manufactured Cezar self-propelled howitzer, and 1 Gvozdika self-propelled artillery system.
▫️In Kupyansk direction, by the actions of the units, Operational-Tactical and Army aviation, and artillery of the Zapad Group of Forces, an attack by the AFU has been repelled close to Novosyolovskoye (Lugansk People's Republic).
Also, the enemy units have been defeated close to Novomlynsk, Petropavlovsk, Timkovka, Berestovoye (Kharkov region) and Stelmakhovka (Lugansk People's Republic).
1 Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group has been neutralised close to Novosyolovskoye (Lugansk People's Republic). The enemy losses were up to 40 Ukrainian servicemen, 2 armoured fighting vehicles, 2 pickup trucks, as well as 1 U.S.-manufactured M777 artillery system.
▫️In Kherson direction, the enemy losses were up to 130 Ukrainian servicemen, 8 motor vehicles, as well as 1 Gvozdika self-propelled howitzer.
▫️Operational-Tactical and Army aviation, Missile Troops and Artillery of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation have neutralised 86 artillery units at their firing positions, manpower and military hardware in 119 areas.
▫️3 control points of the 118th Territorial Defence Brigade, the 10th Mountain Assault Brigade of the AFU and the 4th Brigade of the National Guard have been hit close to Stupochki, Vyemka and Zvanovka (Donetsk People's Republic).
Air defence facilities have shot down 2 Su-25 aircraft of Ukrainian Air Force near Novoandreevka and Georgievka (Donetsk People's Republic).
4 Storm Shadow cruise missiles have been intercepted, as well as 4 HIMARS multiple-launch rocket system projectiles.
15 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles have been destroyed near Kremennaya, Privolye (Lugansk People's Republic), Aleksandrovka, Vesyoloye, Rovnopol, Orlinskoye, Volodino (Donetsk People's Republic), Dneprorudnoye, Chistopolye (Zaporozhye region) and Konstantinovka (Kherson region).
📊In total, 451 airplanes, 241 helicopters, 4,908 unmanned aerial vehicles, 426 air defence missile systems, 10,547 tanks and other armoured fighting vehicles, 1,135 fighting vehicles equipped with MLRS, 5,356 field artillery cannons and mortars, as well as 11,468 special military motor vehicles have been destroyed during the special military operation.
🔹 Russian Defence Ministry
Posted by: rumod report | Jul 6 2023 13:58 utc | 1