Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
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July 3, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-158
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict. The current open thread for other issues here. Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Comments
@all bevin shared this at the tail end of the previous thread, but it is worth sharing again.. john helmer gives an overview via polls on the public mood in russia on this war and the characters, including prigozhin.. thanks bevin and the many posters who offer valued insights and links on what is happening in this proxy war in ukraine.. Posted by: james | Jul 3 2023 15:40 utc | 2 I know some people refuse to believe that corruption, poor leadership/management or mistakes are actually possible in the Russian MoD. That’s obviously a fantasy. Any keeping up on the conflict by reading primary sources from Russia will reveal that. I think they’re worth discussing because this is likely the first “modern” war where the doctrines have to confront a different reality than they were designed around. So who adapts fastest and best is critical to analysis much less victory by either side in the conflict. Posted by: Lex | Jul 3 2023 15:46 utc | 3 I believe that even in Washington realpolitik has won and I expect the caravan to move on. This means that the USA is about to drop Ukraine unceremonially. It’ll be a huge surprise to many but not so much for us. The mess that remains will be safely left to EUropa. Posted by: Konami | Jul 3 2023 15:50 utc | 4 Posted by: Konami | Jul 3 2023 15:50 utc | 4 Posted by: alek_a | Jul 3 2023 16:11 utc | 5 @ Konami | Jul 3 2023 15:50 utc | 4 Posted by: james | Jul 3 2023 16:15 utc | 6 Konami, Posted by: Exile | Jul 3 2023 16:16 utc | 7 “A centre for the prosecution of crimes of aggression committed in Ukraine has opened in The Hague with the backing of the EU, the US and the international criminal court (ICC).” Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 3 2023 16:17 utc | 8 I am puzzled by the lack of information on the status of the Patriot SAM systems in Ukraine. Have the Russians abandoned trying to destroy them? Since they are not very mobile and are vulnerable to hypersonic missile attacks, they should be priority targets. Why don’t we hear anything more about them? Posted by: HH | Jul 3 2023 16:17 utc | 9 “I believe that even in Washington realpolitik has won and I expect the caravan to move on.” @ Konami | Jul 3 2023 15:50 utc | 4 Posted by: too scents | Jul 3 2023 16:21 utc | 11 Last year somebody posted something similar to this logic–can somebody please shed some insight into the conclusions? Posted by: Atlantis Dreams | Jul 3 2023 16:39 utc | 12 I agree with you, but why shouldn’t the US move on? Its Mission Accomplished-Nordstream gone (Europeans now buying expensive US LNG), relations with Russia and the EU have been severed,… Posted by: ostro | Jul 3 2023 16:39 utc | 13 The US proxy war has had many unintended consequences. Russians have demonstrated it has superior weaponry and manufacturing capacity. No amount of spin by the salespeople at the Pentagon PR division, i.e., Western MSM, will convince customers pay more to get less “bang” for the buck. Posted by: Willow | Jul 3 2023 16:39 utc | 14 Pretty obviously Russian MoD nearly ignored drones beyond the handful of reconnaissance drones and development of the heavy strike drone with stealth. It created real problems early on. I find it mystifying because it’s a tech suite Russia would almost certainly be excellent at, and the leaps and bounds improvement over the course of the SMO indicate that’s true. Posted by: John2007 | Jul 3 2023 16:41 utc | 15 By the way, the Ukraine is not talking about the Patriot AA systems these days, maybe because they don’t have them any more, after the first few got kinzhalled. Posted by: Ostro | Jul 3 2023 16:43 utc | 16 @ HH | Jul 3 2023 16:17 utc | 9 Posted by: whirlX | Jul 3 2023 16:58 utc | 17 “ No amount of spin by the salespeople at the Pentagon PR division, i.e., Western MSM, will convince customers pay more to get less “bang” for the buck. Posted by: malenkov | Jul 3 2023 16:59 utc | 18 We are almost a year and a half into the conflict and looking at the current front and the primarily defensive nature of the Russian actions utilizing the defensive improvements Russia has constructed over the past year, it seems to me that Russia decided some time ago that in order to accomplish their objectives in Ukraine their first task is to destroy the Ukrainian military potential as completely as possible utilizing their layered defense at its current position. Any attempt to take additional territory prematurely will inevitably result in the destruction of all captured urban areas and infrastructure as the front moves forward. The areas along the contact line are already heavily damaged or destroyed and extensively mined so there is comparatively little cost to continue fighting along it. This strategy assumes that the layered defenses will hold and at some point within the next 6-8 months the UAF will lack the manpower and sufficient artillery and amo to continue fighting along the entire contact line. Posted by: the pessimist | Jul 3 2023 17:01 utc | 19 An interesting article, I read in KP.ru. I am translating it as it is. Posted by: ostro | Jul 3 2023 17:04 utc | 20 Today’s Rivne NPP visit, as reported by Avia, below. I do not know how much Avia is reliable, as in news, but it appears so correct there.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 3 2023 17:06 utc | 21 So it is worth wondering where Russian drone tech would be today if it had started where it is now? It had everything to recommend it, being inexpensive and right in the sweet spot of Russian tech prowess (similar to missiles). It even slots right in to Geramisov’s doctrine – which turns out to be at least mostly correct. Posted by: jpc | Jul 3 2023 17:07 utc | 22 ostro | Jul 3 2023 16:39 utc | 13 Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Jul 3 2023 17:08 utc | 23 @HH | Jul 3 2023 16:17 utc | 9 Posted by: rk | Jul 3 2023 17:09 utc | 24 Thussprakezarathustra @8. I wonder whether there will be one for the very serious war crimes the AFU has committed? Posted by: Jo Dominich | Jul 3 2023 17:14 utc | 25 Roger Annis analyses the liberal imperialist apologias to be found at sites like Counterpunch and Common Dreams, whicxh are no longer readable. Happily Annis has a strong stomach and reads the stuff that others no longer can. Posted by: bevin | Jul 3 2023 17:17 utc | 26 YetAnotherAnon | Jul 3 2023 17:08 utc | 23 Posted by: Monos | Jul 3 2023 17:20 utc | 27 Many years ago, I offered an opinion live on air at CNN about Palestinians and Israel. I argued that Arafat was probably limited in what he could do with Israel and any peace proposals. If he were to agree to too much, they’d probably assassinate him. Posted by: Eighthman | Jul 3 2023 17:23 utc | 28 Re: population currently governed by Kiev Posted by: Exile | Jul 3 2023 17:26 utc | 29 Posted by Lex Posted by: Aobh OSheachnasaigh | Jul 3 2023 17:26 utc | 30 The war in Ukraine will only end when one of two things happens: either Ukraine runs out of bodies, or Ukraine runs out of money and ammo. I have no idea which is going to happen first. The West continues to somehow magically pull money, arms, and ammo out of its ass despite rampant inflation, a neutered industrial base, and a populace that is at best apathetic towards the war in Ukraine. Ukraine, meanwhile, continues to find bodies to fill in uniforms despite the appalling casualties sustained on the frontline and the demographic collapse resulting from ten million plus Ukrainians fleeing the country at the outset of hostilities. Posted by: Monos | Jul 3 2023 17:27 utc | 31 “The war in Ukraine will only end when one of two things happens: either Ukraine runs out of bodies, or Ukraine runs out of money and ammo. […] Any guesses on which will occur first and end the war?” Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 3 2023 17:30 utc | 32 To clarify my above point, The western antagonists together form a far larger population than Russia. My comment was not referring to continental landmass. Posted by: Aobh OSheachnasigh | Jul 3 2023 17:33 utc | 33 It seems like the war of jokes, Russia which continues to supply the West with gas and oil as well as uranium and many other things and which the West itself uses to produce weapons and military vehicles which it regularly sends, together with soldiers, to Ukraine to kill the Russians, Posted by: A.cagliostro | Jul 3 2023 17:35 utc | 34 Posted by: Monos | Jul 3 2023 17:27 utc | 31 Posted by: UWDude | Jul 3 2023 17:39 utc | 35 The SMO is bearing fruit. Western Europe (including France, BENELUX) is crumbling socially and probably economically, and Germany is crumbling economically, which contributes to further mayhem for social crumbling across Europe due to losing the free EU money effect. Posted by: unimperator | Jul 3 2023 17:48 utc | 36 Any guesses on which will occur first and end the war? Posted by: rk | Jul 3 2023 17:51 utc | 37 Atlantis Dreams @ 12 Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 3 2023 17:52 utc | 38 Posted by: Exile | Jul 3 2023 16:16 utc | 7
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 3 2023 17:52 utc | 39 APU has been coming for a month: what has changed during this time? Analysis of the Military chronicle Posted by: ostro | Jul 3 2023 17:54 utc | 40 Posted by: Monos | Jul 3 2023 17:27 utc | 31 Posted by: unimperator | Jul 3 2023 18:00 utc | 41 the counteroffensive is making no real progress, the Ukrainians are losing men and arms at a rate that cannot be sustained, and meanwhile the Biden Administration is facing increasing pressure to produce some kind of results that will justify it’s military policies, as the lives of ordinary americans continue to get worse due to inflation. the tension continues to ratchet up. Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 3 2023 18:02 utc | 42 2) Assume they are roughly equally distributed in ages between 1 and 100, so there are ~200,000 of each age Posted by: Aelfsige | Jul 3 2023 18:04 utc | 43 Anybody have any substack articles discussing Ukraine’s current demographics. I don’t see how they can keep going if there demographic problems are that severe. Posted by: Bob567777 | Jul 3 2023 18:15 utc | 44 I believe that even in Washington realpolitik has won and I expect the caravan to move on. This means that the USA is about to drop Ukraine unceremonially. It’ll be a huge surprise to many but not so much for us. The mess that remains will be safely left to EUropa. Posted by: Mike R | Jul 3 2023 18:17 utc | 45 Dmitri Medvedev’s very important essay, The Era of Confrontation,” is translated and can be read here. Posted by: Mike R | Jul 3 2023 18:17 utc | 46 Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 3 2023 18:27 utc | 47 I also don’t think it is going to be easy for the Biden administration and the neocons to simply pivot away from this war (the neocons won’t in any case, dismembering Russia is the entire point of their existence). this isn’t going to be possible to memory hole like Afghanistan and Iraq. Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 3 2023 18:29 utc | 48
RU and China have strategic military alliance which will be especially activated in the case that China drifts into conflict with US, UK or other Nato members. Posted by: unimperator | Jul 3 2023 18:32 utc | 49 Posted by: Monos | Jul 3 2023 17:27 utc | 31 Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 3 2023 18:35 utc | 50 It seems like the war of jokes, Russia which continues to supply the West with gas and oil as well as uranium and many other things and which the West itself uses to produce weapons and military vehicles which it regularly sends, together with soldiers, to Ukraine to kill the Russians, Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 3 2023 18:37 utc | 51 Posted by: Lex | Jul 3 2023 15:46 utc | 3 Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 3 2023 18:42 utc | 52 The U.S.A. are between a rock and a hard place: if they try to prolong the war against Russia, de-dollarization will accelerate and with it the total collapse of U.S. finance; if they relieve the pressure on Russia and drop the Ukraine, Western European states will restore their relations with Russia at lightspeed and U.S. (not European) hedge funds will lose the money they used to totally buy the Ukraine. In any case, they can’t prevent the disaster. Posted by: SG | Jul 3 2023 18:47 utc | 53 12 million population in Kiev territory now – heavily skewed towards elderly and unable to travel. Posted by: Exile | Jul 3 2023 18:53 utc | 54 Ukraine’s strategy seems not to be to win (it can’t), but to drag NATO into the war. But in order to achieve this, at least one nuclear catastrophe is needed. This, in turn, can only be achieved by a total meltdown of the Zaporozhye nuclear power plant, since Russia does not want to use nuclear bombs and Ukraine does not have any. However, a direct bombardment would be risky for Ukraine, as footage could identify the originator. In order to be able to blame Russia for this, the nuclear power plant must be at least temporarily occupied by Ukraine; then it can be claimed that it was “mined”. Possibly the blowing up of the Kakhovka dam served to make this possible. Posted by: xblob | Jul 3 2023 18:58 utc | 55 Posted by: Exile | Jul 3 2023 18:53 utc | 54 Posted by: Albert Balog | Jul 3 2023 18:59 utc | 56 To: HH | Jul 3 2023 16:17 utc | 9 Posted by: C | Jul 3 2023 19:03 utc | 57 My bad, I stink at geography sometimes lol. Reading your comment, I read it while thinking Kiev/Kiev oblast’s population was the size of Paris/Île-de-France region. Turns out Kiev city itself was less than 3 million before the SMO. Posted by: Albert Balog | Jul 3 2023 19:04 utc | 58 Monos | Jul 3 2023 17:20 utc | 27 Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Jul 3 2023 19:04 utc | 59 Posted by: Lex | Jul 3 2023 15:46 utc | 3 Posted by: Milites | Jul 3 2023 19:05 utc | 60 Russia are still paying transit fees to Ukraine, Ukraine are still transporting Russian gas to Poland, and Poland are still paying Russia for the gas. Posted by: Passerby | Jul 3 2023 19:06 utc | 61 @Posted by: the pessimist | Jul 3 2023 17:01 utc | 19
One of the best summaries I have seen of the current situation in Ukraine. The need to destroy the Ukrainian Army to the point that it collapses enough to limit the amount of warfare in the cities is a great insight. The West would want to leave a scorched earth in Ukraine if Russia wins, to saddle it with the huge costs of rebuilding while reducing Ukraine’s immediate economic output. Mariupol is an excellent example, and Russia is striving hard to make it a shining example of Russia’s positive intentions in Ukraine, to both the world and the Ukrainian people. But the cost of rebuilding that single city is very high. Russia needs to destroy the foreign mercenaries and sheep dipped NATO soldiers and the Azov, as they would be the obvious ones to destroy the dams, bridges etc. to take Ukraine back to the “Stone Age”. The destruction of the NPPs then becomes a way of giving a poisoned chalice to Russia, while also blaming them for such attacks. I put nothing past the West, they attempt to destroy everything that they cannot have: biological warfare and the levelling of everything in North Korea, agent Orange in Vietnam, the absolute destruction of Afghanistan, the same for Libya and the same for Syria. At some point the Russians may need to take risks to protect Ukraine’s critical infrastructure, or quietly threaten the West with consequences if such acts are carried out.
Absolutely standard practise for the West, their crimes against humanity are either memory-holed or are put down to “mistakes were made”. Always the need to vilify the enemies of the West as not civilized and monsters, just like Big Brother did in 1984 for whoever the enemy was at the time. The elite needs the repeated “two minutes of hate” to legitimize their crimes.
Exactly! Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 3 2023 18:35 utc | 50 Posted by: Milites | Jul 3 2023 19:14 utc | 63 Maybe we should be surprised that Ukraine hasn’t sent terrified women and weeping children to clear minefields and assert that ‘Russia will never shoot them’ as human shields. Posted by: Eighthman | Jul 3 2023 19:17 utc | 64 Passante 61 Posted by: A.cagliostro | Jul 3 2023 19:18 utc | 65 Posted by: HH | Jul 3 2023 16:17 utc | 9 Posted by: Milites | Jul 3 2023 19:24 utc | 66 The English state propaganda machine the BBC, its news programme today at lunchtime saying that Ukrainian forces are making good gains against Russian forces, and that its only a matter of time before they defeat Russia, one fly in the Ukrainian advancement is that mines are holding them back, otherwise they’d be marching on Moscow within a week. Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jul 3 2023 19:31 utc | 67 @Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Jul 3 2023 19:04 utc | 59
And the big US corporations got compensation for their bombed German factories that were producing for the German war effort. Throughout the war IBM supplied the filing systems through which Germany ran the massive information gathering and tracking mechanisms needed to support the Holocaust.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/17/dark-money-review-nazi-oil-the-koch-brothers-and-a-rightwing-revolution From the front: SVT Today: Posted by: Reader | Jul 3 2023 19:34 utc | 69 Posted by: Eighthman | Jul 3 2023 17:23 utc | 28 Posted by: badjoke | Jul 3 2023 19:34 utc | 70 Posted by: HH | Jul 3 2023 16:17 utc | 9 ” Patriot SAM systems in Ukraine” Posted by: Tim2 | Jul 3 2023 19:41 utc | 71 @Konami | Jul 3 2023 15:50 utc | 4
I’d offer two other causes: Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 3 2023 19:42 utc | 72 Re: The Ukraines Population Posted by: Exile | Jul 3 2023 19:43 utc | 73 @ Don Bacon | Jul 3 2023 19:42 utc | 76 Posted by: james | Jul 3 2023 19:49 utc | 74 Today, the Geran-2 kamikaze drones struck the SBU building in Sumy. The building was filled with (Gestapo) Sbushniki, but the number of liquidated militants is still unknown. t.me/RVvoenkor Posted by: ostro | Jul 3 2023 19:55 utc | 75 From Sputnik: https://sputnikglobe.com/20230703/ukraine-has-only-one-option-all-in-offensive-before-nato-summit-in-vilnius-1111641528.html
I’ve got a gut feeling this forthcoming Vilnius summit will be quite acrimonious behind the scenes, despite the public platitudes about “unity”, “steadfastness” and “common goals” etc. Posted by: West of England Andy | Jul 3 2023 20:04 utc | 76 Republicofscotland no. 68 Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 3 2023 20:10 utc | 77 Jo Dominich no. 20 Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 3 2023 20:11 utc | 78 It doesn’t matter much how UKR manages any offensive this week.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jul 3 2023 20:12 utc | 79 With the Russian ability to destroy tanks and APCs seemingly at will during Ukrainian attacks the latter have now been forced into an even worse version of the failed tactics of the Battle of the Somme, infantry advancing on foot against dug in machine guns through minefields, mass artillery, guided munitions, drones, and attack from the air. They have traded less vehicle losses for far higher infantry losses. This will just speed up the liquidation of the Ukrainian army. … It does, however, explain why the Russian MoD is being careful not to waste lives. … Posted by: 600w | Jul 3 2023 20:31 utc | 81 “That splurging in the EU and similarly in the US is the reason for the high inflation we are experiencing now. Whenever liberal progressive take power, they leave a devastated budget behind.” – Posted by: alek_a | Jul 3 2023 16:11 utc | 5 Posted by: DocHollywood | Jul 3 2023 20:49 utc | 82 Thussprakezarathustra @8. Posted by: Stierlitz | Jul 3 2023 20:49 utc | 83 Since it is apropos to the notion of MIC budgets, graft and inflation, https://thehustle.co/08032022-Greedflation/ . Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 3 2023 20:51 utc | 84 Roger | Jul 3 2023 20:15 utc | 81–
I cannot say how many important figures in the USA want a war against Russia or China. But I think it’s possible and important to say that the Ukraine-Russia was *already useful*: while it didn’t achieve the goals against Russia, it severed EUropa from Russia; triggered US reindustrialisation; immediate windfall gains from energy and weapon exports.
Exactly, that’s my whole point. I think it’s important to stress this against the Nuclear Cult people. And because there’s rationality (but of course no morality) in what’s happening.
Agreed. The future for the average citizen of the former First World looks gloomy. Ukrainians are fucked. The other day we talked to a mother from Ukraine who proclaimed that she’ll “have holidays at home after we won the war”. The hate will take generations to wash out, and it may never happen.
I see the weapon imports as the equivalent of what used to be tribute payments in ancient times. You even get a shiny trinket to show to your populace!
I agree. A country like Ukraine is a consumable item in the hands of the USA, and the resource has not yet been entirely used up. That’s the part of Washington arguing for stronger war support. It is also clear that even if there was an armistice, there’ll be terrorist and sabotage actions, as this is standard US practice. But I believe the war will fade out from the TV screens and the minds of Western citizens. As you mention Trump: I’ve read today that in his campaign speeches, he boasts being the one president who didn’t start a war. He’s not wrong there.
Yes, that’s true. There are some funny sounds from Macron but he’s no de Gaulle. I consider the EUropean states to be tributary, dependent vassals. The empire is alive and, in decline, squeezes its vassals harder. I have the feeling that a lot of common people see this in some form. The people who are blind to it are “intellectuals”, in my experience. Posted by: Konami | Jul 3 2023 21:04 utc | 86 @ Stierlitz, §87: Posted by: John Marks | Jul 3 2023 21:07 utc | 87 @Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 3 2023 20:56 utc | 89 Posted by: Tim2 | Jul 3 2023 19:41 utc | 72 Posted by: Milites | Jul 3 2023 21:13 utc | 89 Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 3 2023 20:51 utc | 88 Posted by: alek_a | Jul 3 2023 21:13 utc | 90 I don’t know how things are going to play out in the future but looking back 8 months on some postings, has anyone modified their positions based on what happened between then and now? A lot of talk about a failed Ukrainian offense. Posted by: Tim2 | Jul 3 2023 21:20 utc | 91 Tim2 | Jul 3 2023 21:20 utc | 96– Does anyone else think that in the event of a nuclear false flag attack the Rivne NPP is a far more likely target than the ZNPP? Zaluzhny was at Rivne NPP a few days ago on the pretext of gathering information in case of an attack on ZNPP. Maybe this is true and maybe it isn’t, but in any case blowing up an active NPP like Rivne would be orders of magnitude more serious than at ZNPP where Russia has taken steps to mitigate any potential damage. Posted by: Peter 4805 | Jul 3 2023 21:29 utc | 93 Posted by: ostro | Jul 3 2023 17:04 utc | 20 Posted by: Blissex | Jul 3 2023 21:30 utc | 94 If the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant (ZNPP) starts leaking radiation and if that radiation moves into NATO countries, this will invoke a call for the activation of NATO’s article 5. Posted by: young | Jul 3 2023 21:36 utc | 95 Posted by: alek_a | Jul 3 2023 21:13 utc | 94
Also keep in mind the monopolization of numerous good and commodity producers. These conglomerates can frankly get away with charging whatever they want whenever they want regardless of market conditions in many cases. They don’t have any (real) competition. Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 3 2023 21:37 utc | 96 Chris Hedges with his view of things…
Whoever Hedges might be trying to impress with such mush-mouth obliviousness, the effect of this standard nod to Russophobia here, in Hedges column, is to completely undermine the piece’s putative theme — that USA is lying about this war, as about previous wars. If it’s just us, the good empire, versus them, the bad empire, then isn’t it okay to lie in the cause of eternal justice and vanquishing evil? Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jul 3 2023 21:40 utc | 97 Roger | Jul 3 2023 21:09 utc | 92– Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 3 2023 21:28 utc | 97 Posted by: badjoke | Jul 3 2023 21:43 utc | 99 The weakest point of defense for Russia (and Russia of course knows this very well) is not Russia itself, but rather Belorussia, whose military is significantly less prepared and of an overall lesser standard than both Russia’s and the NATO-trained Ukraine’s. Ukrainian paramilitary incursions into Belorussia, if they’re significantly disruptive, might prove a very powerful propagandistic blow to Lukashenko’s regime and the internal oligarchy upon which his rule depends. Posted by: Jupiter | Jul 3 2023 21:44 utc | 100 |
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