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July 1, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-155
Comments
Any links to Swiss rioting?
Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Jul 2 2023 12:24 utc | 402
Posted by: Be | Jul 2 2023 12:37 utc | 401
Re: French Uprising ?
My wild guess is if the scale of violence continues into Monday night; then it’s not a riot – it’s an Uprising.
So far it appears to be just angry unfocused revenge against the system. However, Someone who follows uncensored alternative social media might be seeing some political leaders emerging. Perhaps that’s why the authorities are nutso about locking down social media.
Watch this space Tuesday am local
Time
Posted by: Exile | Jul 2 2023 12:39 utc | 402
Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 2 2023 10:42 utc | 360
Prigozhin is a man in need of cashflow to service 400 businesses………
Utkin is a Neo-Nazi with SS tattoos and is of Ukrainian origin………he might be the bigger problem – I read his call-sign is “Wagner” – he apparently like’s Hitler’s favourite composer
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jul 2 2023 12:44 utc | 404
As usual the Lake Geneva ex-pat community completely insulated fron reality.
Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Jul 2 2023 12:44 utc | 405
Given that the Ukraine war will end in a hostile armistice, the amusing and ironic part is that the EU will then have its very own North Korea – angry, poor, devastated,with a tyrannical government and its population constantly running away. They will be an economic burden for years to come. Perhaps they will then be more able to commiserate with what China has to put up with.
Posted by: Eighthman | Jul 2 2023 12:50 utc | 406
My wild guess is if the scale of violence continues into Monday night; then it’s not a riot – it’s an Uprising.
Posted by: Exile | Jul 2 2023 12:39 utc | 410
———-
When the ‘local riots’ don’t appear to have a single leader, it would be very hard to crush. It’d be nice to see these ‘local riots’ grow into an uprising, even with many ‘local’ leaders. It might be interesting to see, if something like that would start in Germany and Britain too. 🙂
Posted by: ostro | Jul 2 2023 12:54 utc | 407
“The NATO ‘top brass’ and the politicos will meet in Vilnius in July, but with security guarantees from Russia. Still, it is the best time to knock the lot off the face of Earth.”
Posted by: ostro | Jul 2 2023 10:04 utc | 343
Well observed ostro.
Nato politicos are some of the most cowardly scum on the planet. They’re not about to meet in Vilnius within spitting distance of a Kaliber battery without some solid assuarances of their safety. Perhaps that’s one reason why Burns quickly called the Kremlin during the Prigozhin episode; to distance Nato from the deluded thug’s actions and to beg for assuarance of Russian ‘cooperation’ during the meeting. Russia won’t be tempted to attack but it won’t hurt to be doubly sure.
I would love to see the Russian air force troll the politicos by flying towards Vilnius in attack formation but well within Russian airspace, and turning round just before the border to coincide with the opening ceremony. Or a snap military exercise near the border. Won’t happen because the Russians are too level-headed but it would be fun to see warmonger Stoltenberg sh***ing his pants while scrambling for a foxhole.
Posted by: Panza | Jul 2 2023 13:03 utc | 408
Ostro,
Violence is never the solution, peaceful reform is much better. Recall that:
“A Revolution always eats its Children’ as the Jacobians learned
Posted by: Exile | Jul 2 2023 13:05 utc | 409
Richard Steven Hack @278:
In other words, it looks like the Russian MoD collected up a bunch of painful losses inflicted upon them by NATO and attributed them to Wagner in order to cynically cover their own incompetent, fat, desk-bound asses. That’s pretty much what I suspected since there was no point to confronting the Wagner protest opera with EW aircraft. What could such aircraft accomplish? While the Pantsir has radar that can be jammed, it also has optical tracking like the Strela-10 that cannot, so wasting radar jamming aircraft on them would be a sign of utter incompetence. Don’t the Russian MoD know what their own equipment is capable of?
And speaking of capabilities, can the Pantsir and Strela-10 systems operate effectively while parked on flatbed trailers rolling down the highway? Do the operators of those systems sit at their stations while those systems are being transported on trailers? Just asking as it would be unexpected, at least by me.
Let’s just wrap what we are supposed to believe all together here: A battalion of troops tooling down the highway in presumably hostile territory with (possibly) a loaded Strela-10 and a Pantsir system on trailers was able to shoot down – what, it is seven now? – aircraft, at least one at medium range, while being blanketed by Russia’s best Electronic Warfare systems.
Sorry, but that is Rambo-level Hollywood bullshit. Maybe some of the helicopters were shot down with a bow and arrow?
It is a silly fiction, and the parties involved are all going along with it for their own various political reasons.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 2 2023 13:07 utc | 410
The Crimea and Donbass are a part of Russia again and the Bear will never give them up.
How hard is this to understand?
Posted by: Morongobill | Jul 2 2023 13:10 utc | 411
Given that the Ukraine war will end in a hostile armistice, the amusing and ironic part is that the EU will then have its very own North Korea – angry, poor, devastated,with a tyrannical government and its population constantly running away. They will be an economic burden for years to come.
Posted by: Eighthman | Jul 2 2023 12:50 utc | 414
—
Would hardly be anything new. We already have a lot of experience with such kind of ally. Angry, poor, devastated, with a tyrannical government and its population constantly running away. An economic burden for years to come.
Posted by: Nobody | Jul 2 2023 13:14 utc | 412
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 8:07 utc | 305
Pretty sure most folks here had sense enough to just read the transcript.
Posted by: Morongobill | Jul 2 2023 13:15 utc | 413
“…Bevin resorts to using the “conspiracy theory” smear repeatedly…” Wisco@262
Where do I employ that term?
No doubt I have used it in the past but I do so very rarely.
That the capitalist class retains its grip on power by acting in a coordinated and ideologically organised fashion is what I claim. It is not a conspiracy, it is just the way that class rule works.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 2 2023 13:15 utc | 414
Russia has no US pipeline to hit to revenge Nordstream. But if Iran closes the Straits to US tankers…
USA will need a third front.
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 2 2023 12:29 utc | 406
Russia has a surfeit, a plethora, an abundance of ways to hit back, which explains the calm demeanor of the Russian brass in the face of all this panic and noise.
=====
COVID: Biological weapons are crappy weapons, they are hard to aim and you never know how much damage they are going to do, or to whom exactly. COVID exemplifies all of that.
=====
RIOTS: Large numbers of newcomers are hard for any society to handle and in general it is a dumb thing to do to anybody when you don’t have to.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 2 2023 13:18 utc | 415
Any links to Swiss rioting?
Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Jul 2 2023 12:24 utc | 402
Lausanne. RT.com
Posted by: Panza | Jul 2 2023 13:23 utc | 416
Posted by: Exile | Jul 2 2023 13:05 utc | 417
Violence is never the solution, peaceful reform is much better
Neither Violence nor Peaceful Reform are the solutions.
The only solution is Mass Subversion From Within…
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 2 2023 13:28 utc | 417
Bemildred @ 423
COVID: Biological weapons are crappy weapons, they are hard to aim and you never know how much damage they are going to do, or to whom exactly. COVID exemplifies all of that.
It’s not impossible that COVID was an attempt by the USA to bust up the Chinese economy, Russia was to get the sanctions tsunami and China the bug blitz. If so, just like WW1 poison gas and a quick shift of the wind, the outcome of COVID was the UK went tits up, bankrupt, as that was the exact reality behind Liz Truss’s 15 minutes, and pretty much bankrupting the USA, just have to look under any bridge to get an idea of post COVID reality there.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 2 2023 13:32 utc | 418
That the capitalist class retains its grip on power by acting in a coordinated and ideologically organised fashion is what I claim. It is not a conspiracy, it is just the way that class rule works.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 2 2023 13:15 utc | 422
—
Which is actually the crazy part of it. Capitalists demonstrate a better understanding of Marxist theories than the working class. 🙂
Posted by: Nobody | Jul 2 2023 13:35 utc | 419
That the capitalist class retains its grip on power by acting in a coordinated and ideologically organised fashion is what I claim. It is not a conspiracy, it is just the way that class rule works.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 2 2023 13:15 utc | 422
—
Which is actually the crazy part of it. Capitalists demonstrate a better understanding of Marxist theories than the working class. 🙂
Posted by: Nobody | Jul 2 2023 13:35 utc | 420
B, stop it with the “the Ukraine”. It’s Ukraine. Why would you add “the”?
This is a habit some american journalists began decades ago, to call foreign countries “the” because they thought it made the writer sound advanced:
The Albania
The Congo
The Brazil
The Ukraine
For God’s sake stop. Everyone else has.
Posted by: Hegar | Jul 2 2023 13:39 utc | 421
I would love to see the Russian air force troll the politicos by flying towards Vilnius in attack formation but well within Russian airspace, and turning round just before the border to coincide with the opening ceremony. Or a snap military exercise near the border. Won’t happen because the Russians are too level-headed but it would be fun to see warmonger Stoltenberg sh***ing his pants while scrambling for a foxhole.
Posted by: Panza | Jul 2 2023 13:03 utc | 416
Posted by: ostro | Jul 2 2023 13:44 utc | 422
Violence is never the solution, peaceful reform is much better. Recall that:
“A Revolution always eats its Children’ as the Jacobians learned
Posted by: Exile | Jul 2 2023 13:05 utc | 417
—————-
I don’t really care for the safety (and peace) of the unfriedlies, especially the former (or still) colonial countries of Europe.
Posted by: ostro | Jul 2 2023 13:48 utc | 423
@ Hegar: My understanding is that Ukrainians object to “the Ukraine” because that implies a region snd not a state. But the joke’s on them because the word “Ukraina” translates roughly as “borderland.” Indeed, whose border? 😉
Posted by: malenkov | Jul 2 2023 14:09 utc | 424
It’s not impossible that COVID was an attempt by the USA to bust up the Chinese economy, Russia was to get the sanctions tsunami and China the bug blitz. If so, just like WW1 poison gas and a quick shift of the wind, the outcome of COVID was the UK went tits up, bankrupt, as that was the exact reality behind Liz Truss’s 15 minutes, and pretty much bankrupting the USA, just have to look under any bridge to get an idea of post COVID reality there.
Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 2 2023 13:32 utc | 429
Thank you for your comment, I consider COVID the biggest self-own of the last 30 years of big self-owns, by our wannabe Lords and Masters. Like all stupid people, they harm themselves and their friends and aid their enemies on their way. What was amazing is the Chinese got it exactly right, and saved everybody else in consequence, because they kept their economy going and did the work to deal with the disease, spent the money. Good Job!
Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 2 2023 14:20 utc | 425
The Ukraine is the correct description my friend.
Posted by: Language Police | Jul 2 2023 14:23 utc | 426
In re: Ingolf Eide 296
Thank you. Early on Jacques Baud was to me the best sane, informed, meticulous commentator out there. Recently I heard Ritter speak of him with respect. Again thank you.
After thinking over the Antonov bridge and the left bank of islands, the problem of re-supply – logistics for the embedded UKR forces seems large. And yes the artillery on the hills of the R bank help, but mechanized and artillery will be hard to deliver.
I am guessing that in many places the grass – sedges is nearly 1.6 meter tall. Trees not in abundance, but present? Mosquitoes, gnats, chiggers and ticks everywhere. I used to think, whoa, be some good fishing around there, but of course now, not so much.
Posted by: paxmark1 | Jul 2 2023 14:34 utc | 427
Antifa has come within blocks of a building I own in Texas…
HAHAHAHA LOL!!!
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 2 2023 14:54 utc | 428
Hegar @432
It is “The Ukraine”, and no, I will not use your preferred pronouns either.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 2 2023 14:56 utc | 429
Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 2 2023 13:07 utc | 421
Wow. I wasn’t aware there are more than 2 or 3 of us here that see through the bullshit about the helicopters.
Agreed.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 2 2023 14:58 utc | 430
Melaleuca | Jul 2 2023 3:34 utc | 259
*** Mike pence pilgrimage to Kiev was mostly ignored.
As it should be.
But still. How irrelevant can a presidential candidate be if he can’t even score a participation point for obsequious service to the clown-king of Kiev.***
Mike Pence, supposedly a hard-line “christian” and armageddonist…..
Panders to a squalid litle Nazi Jew.
And has no problem in fervently endorsing overtly ‘satanistic’ top regiments of the Kievan armed forces … or the LGBT++ “values” to be imposed worldwide by NATO.
Not to mention the imposition of an economic system based upon money-lending / changing, about which Pence should, surely, also have big reservations.
Same goes for Pompeo and others….
In theological terms just what *are* they, really?
Posted by: Cynic | Jul 2 2023 14:58 utc | 431
@anon2020 #403:
Propping up superiors in light of their failure while knowing they’ll probably do so again is undoubtedly at the root of these SMO failure I’ve have mentioned … the phenomena of “yes men” is a well known fact of bureaucratic life in Russian culture.
Thanks. You get it.
It’s funny how Westerners, primarily U.S.-ians, have lectured me and even accused me of being some sort of Western shill just because I occasionally posted reports by Russian war correspondents that indicated serious problems in the Russian military.
People who are demanding to silence those who are reporting the problems are unknowingly or knowingly working for the enemy.
Posted by: S | Jul 2 2023 14:58 utc | 432
…
Essential analysis from the inimitable John J. MEARSHEIMER. Thoughts?
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 1 2023 16:55 utc | 14
Thanks for the link to JM’s Ukraine perspective at Stategic Culture. It hadn’t showed up on my link to SC’s main page.
It’s a handy precis of NATO’s tosh and malfeasance from the beginning of the conflict to the present. More importantly, it shines a light on the stuff the MSM obscured such as the ‘unprovoked’ lie.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jul 2 2023 15:25 utc | 434
to france is fucked | Jul 2 2023 11:04 utc | 377 ….
It is merely what liberals in the UK call “cultural enrichment”.
Posted by: Cynic | Jul 2 2023 15:27 utc | 435
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 2 2023 14:54 utc | 439
In the George Floyd riots I refer too, someone who could not be named delivered pallets of bricks to strategic locations along the route to ease the burden of property destruction.
Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Jul 2 2023 15:30 utc | 436
ostro@418…having lived through the aftermath of Bloody Sunday…..if troops come out, they will not be shooting politicians. Order will be restored. Flesh and bones never fare well against fully automatic weapons. Many civilians will die. Now if they stayed home, refusing to work mass strike…..lives will be saved. Most disorganized groups only know violence, still trudging down the evolutionary knuckle dragging trail.
Cheers M
Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 2 2023 15:41 utc | 437
Revelo | Jul 2 2023 12:28 utc | 407
*** These conditions amount to turning Ukraine into a permanent vassal of Russia but restoration of territorial integrity is a way to sell the deal to Ukrainian citizens. Might be wise to carve out Lviv and give that to Poland, then exile all the fanatics there. But keep the Carpathians, especially the tunnel to Hungary.***
These hypothetical conditions would justify liquidating whatever traitors were in charge of Russia, and would certainly NOT assure any safety and security (except for the rulers of “the West” and their functionaries).
Donetsk, Lugansk and Crimea are regions of Russia.
Such a proposal would be to absolutely betray them.
As for west “Ukrainian citizens”, they had their chances — several times since the end of the USSR — and converted what was potentially the richest country in Europe into a total NATOised oligarchic, degenerate shit-hole … so to hell with the lot of them, and the sooner the better.
Posted by: Cynic | Jul 2 2023 15:50 utc | 438
[432]
Why are you so late to the party ?
It is „The Ukraine“ because in English we use a definite article and in Russian it does not exist so „The Borderlands“ in English and „Borderlands“ in Russian
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jul 2 2023 16:01 utc | 439
Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 2 2023 8:20 utc | 314
HELLO? Did you know that the UAF has some 100K combat personnel and artillery deep in RIGHT BANK as well as LEFT BANK Zaporizh* oblast that the RFAF does not “control” from which they have fired at will on the ZNPP since March 2022?
Get your priorities straight. The Dnieper is a barrier to UAF deployment from Kherson to unite E-W armored brigades in the SOUTH. UA has no navy, no “invincible year” pontoon bridges, and they forgot where they “float” their mines, settlement farmers, and dry powder. From Kherson high ground they pass time taking pot shots at Crimea, because WaPoo has telegraphed The NEW! Offensive Path® to Peace. Cockamamie Ukranews is struggling to spin a ≥ 7m depth of the “natural riverbad” (ie. Kakhovka Reservoir formerly contained by Kakhovka Dam that they destroyed) into a APC south-bound highway strategic strategy. Except the RF Kherson rearguard’s daily job now is defense, spotting UA “marine” landing targets for drone and missile destruction. Why would you dispatch different orders?
Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 2 2023 16:18 utc | 440
Russia has no US pipeline to hit to revenge Nordstream. But if Iran closes the Straits to US tankers…
USA will need a third front.
Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jul 2 2023 12:29 utc | 406
Oh yes it does–the Trans-Alaskan pipeline is quite vulnerable. Then there’re all those pipelines in the Gulf of Mexico leading from platforms to shore. Plenty of targets if Russia wanted to hit them.
Russia also has the ability to embargo certain things the USA would have great difficulty sourcing elsewhere.
Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Jul 2 2023 16:31 utc | 442
@William Gruff #421
Among the pilots who died on June 24 were two servicemen of the Pskov garrison (RIA Novosti, June 27, 2023, updated on June 28, 2023 — in Russian)
Among the military pilots who died during the events of June 24, there were two servicemen of the Pskov Territorial Garrison, Pskov Oblast Governor Mikhail Vedernikov announced in a video message published on his Telegram channel.
President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that the military pilots who died on June 24 have honorably fulfilled the order and their military duty.
As the head of the region clarified, among the dead military pilots mentioned by Russian President Vladimir Putin were servicemen of the Pskov Territorial Garrison: members of the crew of the Ka-52 combat helicopter, Lieutenant Colonel Alexey Vorozhtsov and Lieutenant Denis Oleynikov. The pilots, Vedernikov noted, remained true to their military oath and did everything to protect the country from the mutineers.
The governor expressed condolences to the families of the victims. “We will always remember those who embody the glory and honor of our military,” he added.
…
Ivanovo Oblast authorities reported the death of the Il-22 crew during the mutiny on June 24 (RIA Novosti, June 28, 2023, updated on June 29, 2023 — in Russian)
The authorities of the Ivanovo Oblast reported that on Saturday, the crew of an Il-22 aircraft based in the region died in the line of military duty, the press service of the regional government reported on Telegram.
“Governor Stanislav Voskresenskiy expressed his condolences to the families and friends of the servicemen and instructed to provide assistance to their families,” the post says.
According to the head of the region, during the service, the servicemen showed the qualities of true officers and fulfilled their military duty with honor.
…
So, in addition to the videos of the fall of the Il-22 (1, 2, 3), the video of the Il-22 debris, the photo of the Il-22 debris showing its tail number which matches its entry in a popular database of Russian aircraft, the video of the Ka-52 striking something on a highway and the photos of the Ka-52 debris, we have official confirmations from Pskov Oblast Governor and Ivanovo Oblast Governor reproduced by RIA Novosti, one of the three main Russian news agencies. Also, local authorities have installed a cross at the location where the Ka-52 crashed, with plans to install a monument and build a road there.
At this point, it is beyond reasonable doubt that one Il-22 and one Ka-52 have been downed and their crews have died.
Posted by: S | Jul 2 2023 16:31 utc | 443
@William Gruff #421
Among the pilots who died on June 24 were two servicemen of the Pskov garrison (RIA Novosti, June 27, 2023, updated on June 28, 2023 — in Russian)
Among the military pilots who died during the events of June 24, there were two servicemen of the Pskov Territorial Garrison, Pskov Oblast Governor Mikhail Vedernikov announced in a video message published on his Telegram channel.
President Vladimir Putin said on Tuesday that the military pilots who died on June 24 have honorably fulfilled the order and their military duty.
As the head of the region clarified, among the dead military pilots mentioned by Russian President Vladimir Putin were servicemen of the Pskov Territorial Garrison: members of the crew of the Ka-52 combat helicopter, Lieutenant Colonel Alexey Vorozhtsov and Lieutenant Denis Oleynikov. The pilots, Vedernikov noted, remained true to their military oath and did everything to protect the country from the mutineers.
The governor expressed condolences to the families of the victims. “We will always remember those who embody the glory and honor of our military,” he added.
…
Ivanovo Oblast authorities reported the death of the Il-22 crew during the mutiny on June 24 (RIA Novosti, June 28, 2023, updated on June 29, 2023 — in Russian)
The authorities of the Ivanovo Oblast reported that on Saturday, the crew of an Il-22 aircraft based in the region died in the line of military duty, the press service of the regional government reported on Telegram.
“Governor Stanislav Voskresenskiy expressed his condolences to the families and friends of the servicemen and instructed to provide assistance to their families,” the post says.
According to the head of the region, during the service, the servicemen showed the qualities of true officers and fulfilled their military duty with honor.
…
Posted by: S | Jul 2 2023 16:32 utc | 444
Cont’d from #454
So, in addition to the videos of the fall of the Il-22 (1, 2, 3), the video of the Il-22 debris, the photo of the Il-22 debris showing its tail number which matches its entry in a popular database of Russian aircraft, the video of the Ka-52 striking something on a highway and the photos of the Ka-52 debris, we have Pskov Oblast Governor confirming the death of the Ka-52 crew and Ivanovo Oblast Governor confirming the death of the Il-22 crew, reproduced by RIA Novosti, one of the three main Russian news agencies. Also, local authorities have installed a cross at the location where the Ka-52 crashed, with plans to install a monument and build a road there.
At this point, it is beyond reasonable doubt that one Il-22 and one Ka-52 have been downed and their crews have died.
Posted by: S | Jul 2 2023 16:40 utc | 445
@William Gruff #421:
And speaking of capabilities, can the Pantsir and Strela-10 systems operate effectively while parked on flatbed trailers rolling down the highway?
Pantsir-S1 can operate while moving or being moved, so the answer is yes. Don’t know about Strela.
Posted by: S | Jul 2 2023 16:50 utc | 446
S @456: “Pantsir-S1 can operate while moving or being moved…”
The wheeled version uses hydraulic jacks to stabilize itself, so at least for that version I would be highly doubtful that it could be operated from a flatbed trailer. The tracked version might be able to operate from a trailer, though. Do you know which version Wagner brought with them for their parade?
Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 2 2023 17:14 utc | 447
@Paul Greenwood #415:
Utkin is a Neo-Nazi with SS tattoos and is of Ukrainian origin.
The claims that Dmitriy Utkin has Nazi tattoos are a Ukrainian hoax. This 2017 Fontanka article discusses a photo of Putin with four Wagner commanders, explaining who they are. Utkin does not look like the guy in the photo that Ukrainian and Western media keep posting.
It’s true that Utkin was born in the Ukraine (in 1970), however, he has Russian citizenship and has served in the Russian Armed Forces since the 90s (source).
Posted by: S | Jul 2 2023 17:15 utc | 448
@bevin | Jul 1 2023 21:57 utc | 163
Stalin purged most of the upper hierarchy of the Soviets, and since most of them were Jews that means Stalin purged the Jewish majority in the upper echelons of the Communist Party. So most of the Russians lamenting the end of the Soviet state were lamenting the end of the Russian Soviet state, and not the end of the Jewish Soviet state. Russians defeated the Nazi’s during WW2, not Jews. The JQ only surfaced in Russia again in the 1990’s with the oligarchs, and now again with Prigozhin.
Posted by: gT | Jul 2 2023 17:20 utc | 449
S | Jul 2 2023 16:40 utc | 455–
Thanks again S! As far as I’m concerned, the extraordinary evidence that proves the extraordinary event more than exists, it’s not even secret. Refusal to accept that evidence indicates those doing so have an agenda. That Burns supposedly called Narishkin to confess the CIA had nothing to do with Prigozhin’s event I’ve already commented on and called his excuse yet another Western Big Lie, for the West is 100% responsible for absolutely everything that happened during and after the 2014 Coup, for it was in essence an act of Aggressive War–a fact the West doesn’t want to confess to but is what it is.
Melaleuca | Jul 2 2023 5:29 utc | 291
Thank you for your reply to the question why Merkel/Hollande said, ‘gloated’ that they fooled Putin with Minsk agreements. In all respect to you, I think that it is naïve to think that they thought that way, they knew how shrewd Putin is, and that explanation is ‘psychological’, and not based on real-political reasoning. We probably will never know what was in their heads, so my question is basically not appropriate, some may say ‘academic’ or others even may say – it is stupid.
Posted by: fanto | Jul 2 2023 17:50 utc | 451
@William Gruff #457:
The wheeled version uses hydraulic jacks to stabilize itself, so at least for that version I would be highly doubtful that it could be operated from a flatbed trailer.
Again, Pantsir-S1 can operate while on the move. See the video in this Zvezda article: although it is moving very slowly, the hydraulic jacks are obviously not extended. I assume the jacks provide increased accuracy for the guns.
Do you know which version Wagner brought with them for their parade?
The wheeled version (video).
Posted by: S | Jul 2 2023 17:52 utc | 452
S @462
Indeed, that is the wheeled version of the Pantsir S1, and it is not on a trailer.
In any case, I am not saying Wagner didn’t succeed in shooting some aircraft down. In particular, the Ka-52 that shot at the Wagner parade made itself a valid target. It shouldn’t be surprising that the Wagner troops would shoot back if they have the ability.
What I find doubtful is that Wagner shot down the Mi-8 MTPR radar jamming aircraft. Why were they even there? What could they do? Likewise for the Il-22M.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 2 2023 18:32 utc | 453
What I find doubtful is that Wagner shot down the Mi-8 MTPR radar jamming aircraft. Why were they even there? What could they do? Likewise for the Il-22M.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 2 2023 18:32 utc | 463
Monitoring radio/phone comms to see if there were co-conspirators, I would suggest.
Posted by: ChatNPC | Jul 2 2023 18:47 utc | 454
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 8:13 utc | 311
Nice resource, thanks*. I was able to get a deal on the first tranche of his new series about an alien empire that had incorporated humanity, and his other series with a Medieval theme, about a rapscallion that put me to mind of some of Zelazny’s most engaging characters. Williams is really carrying the torch for we fans of Roger’s writings.
Amazon though is extortionist with their pricing on ebooks, and even top authors get a relative pittance in exchange. Lol, in their own way they help keep those selling used books viable with their businesses.
My last off topic comment: openlibrary.org is a free and legitimate way to read books online, though they are under pressure from the usual suspects to shut down their portal. No ads, and registration is free as well.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Library
*For Zelazny, here’s a link, and there’s more authors if you navigate around.
https://oceanofpdf.com/category/authors/roger-zelazny/
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 2 2023 18:54 utc | 455
By the way, I have geolocated the video of the helicopter launching a missile over an interchange. Here it is, right on the eastern edge of Voronezh.
Posted by: S | Jul 2 2023 19:02 utc | 456
Posted by: Morongobill | Jul 2 2023 13:10 utc | 422
«The Crimea and Donbass are a part of Russia again and the Bear will never give them up.»
Posted by: Revelo | Jul 2 2023 12:28 utc | 407
«restoration of territorial integrity is a way to sell the deal to Ukrainian citizens.»
The Crimea and Donbas do not belong to the people of Kiev or Lvov (or Moscow), but to the people of Crimea and Donbas.
It is awful that people in Kiev and Lvov, including _elensky, seem to have the colonial attitude that they own the land in which the residents of Crimea and Donbas are just temporary (a few hundred years…) squatters.
The people of Crimea and Donbas have the only right to the territorial integrity of the Crimea and Donbas, and have been the victims of repeated invasions of their homeland, during a brutal war of aggression from the fascists ukrainian governments.
https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/05/10/ukra-m10.html
«10 May 2014
With the open support of Washington and its European allies, the regime installed by Washington and Berlin in last February’s fascist-led putsch is now extending its reign of terror against all popular resistance in Ukraine. That is the significance of the events in the major eastern Ukrainian city of Mariupol yesterday. After tanks, armoured personnel carriers and heavily armed troops were unleashed on unarmed civilians in the city, the Kiev regime claimed to have killed some 20 people. The Obama administration immediately blamed the violent repression on “pro-Russian separatists.”»
Posted by: Blissex | Jul 2 2023 19:11 utc | 457
@William Gruff #463:
What I find doubtful is that Wagner shot down the Mi-8 MTPR radar jamming aircraft. Why were they even there? What could they do? Likewise for the Il-22M.
Channel 1 war correspondent Irina Kuksenkova on Prigozhin’s explanation as to why the Il-22 was shot down:
According to updated information, the Wagners near Voronezh have shot down not Il-18, but Il-22. There were 10 people on board. When Prigozhin was asked at the Southern Military District HQ why—as this plane does not strike, but performs other functions—he said: “The dumb air defense operator in the convoy was shooting down everything that was taking off…”
Prigozhin agreed to pay 50 million compensation to the families of the dead pilots.
I have no words.
The downed Il-22 was Il-22PP Porubshchik, a SIGINT/EW plane that, according to this RBTH article, can “counteract Patriot air defense systems.” Perhaps the Russian military tried to jam the Pantsir radar in a similar way? Or maybe they just ordered this rare, valuable plane in the air fearing that it will fall in the hands of the Wagners, who, according to some Telegram posts, were trying to occupy an air base in Voronezh Oblast.
Posted by: S | Jul 2 2023 19:39 utc | 458
Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 2 2023 12:26 utc | 406
More generic nonsense. I only read the first sentence of either bevause I know what type of person I am arguing with.
I told you, start with some specifics, or dont come at me with ant more generic crap. I told you, Name the breadth and depth of this buffer zone that would be so “relatively easy” to establish across the dneiper, name what kind of weaponry, AND how much, AND what front you would pull it from, AND how many drones you would need for 24-7 coverage.
Of course, because you dont know anything, just bluster, just bullshit, you write a whole bunch of words about how weak my argument is and my personality flaws, how I think, blah blah blah..
..but you couldnt even give an estimate of the sq km of this “relatively easy” buffer zone.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 19:41 utc | 459
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jul 2 2023 12:44 utc | 415
Fake news. Utkin has no visible tattoos. There is a picture of an old bald white guy covered in nazi tattoos, and people claiming its Utkin, but real picture of Utkin, the few that there are, he has no tattoos at all.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 19:46 utc | 460
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 19:41 utc | 469
Are you RSH’s long lost son? If not, you’re well on your way to grow up very like him — an egomaniac. Why don’t you start a block list like him. Feel free to put me on it.
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jul 2 2023 21:31 utc | 461
Sun Tzu says:
If your opponent is of choleric temper, irritate him.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 22:14 utc | 462
@anon 20 20
Quote. “I don’t understand why a zone of conflict has been permitted – accepted, actually – that has undoubtedly led to the loss of Kakhovka HPP and now imperils ZNPP. ”
Now you will understand why genuine patriotic Russians have genuine genuine to be angry at verbal diarrhoea sufferer Sergei. Lavrov, British agent peskey and important Putin
Posted by: Sam | Jul 2 2023 23:25 utc | 463
Posted by: paxmark1 | Jul 2 2023 14:34 utc | 438
You’re most welcome.
He’s one of my favourites because he doesn’t egregiously complicate things. In the case of Prighozen I still wonder if Baud may have gone with too simple a conclusion . . . the veering into pro-Ukrainian apologetics towards the end still seems very odd.
Posted by: Ingolf Eide | Jul 3 2023 8:21 utc | 464