Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
The current open thread for other issues here.
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July 1, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-155
Comments
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 23:14 utc | 190
I read Simplicius76 reports regularly, his reports are packed with information, which I either have no resources or no time to collect. So I really regard his reports as a valuable supplementary information source.
Highly recommend barflies to read it. Have your own judgement after.
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jul 2 2023 0:13 utc | 201
@ UWDude | Jul 1 2023 23:44 utc | 200
Yes, I support your idea, sure, with some more known strategy behind it, because its a history.
Why invent the hot water again?
Concerning a claim that capturing Odesa Raion ends the war, I hope we do agree on that.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 2 2023 0:17 utc | 202
Caitlan is never far off the mark, regardless of what she writes about, and she writes about the Western Narratives/propaganda wars very well; oh yeah and class warfare too
https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2023/06/30/of-course-greta-met-with-zelensky-notes-from-the-edge-of-the-narrative-matrix/
Of COURSE Greta Met With Zelensky: Notes From The Edge Of The Narrative Matrix
“….Of course Greta Thunberg met with Zelensky. Of course she did. That was the only box left to check off in the most PR-intensive proxy war of all time. They got Bono. They got Mark Hamill and Sean Penn. They got appearances at the WEF, the New York Stock Exchange and the Grammys. They just needed Greta…..
…A 2014 study found that Americans have no idea how bad income inequality in their country really is; participants believed things are vastly more equal than they are. This is because western media never report on the class warfare that is being waged against the working class. The media are owned and controlled by extremely wealthy people who have a vested interest in keeping everyone from looking at class warfare…”
Posted by: michaelj72 | Jul 2 2023 0:17 utc | 203
Now as to the ZPP. I call bullshit on everything being reported about this from both sides. We’ve been hearing about a “false flag” since before the war started. None has occurred yet. The IAEA has people on the ground, they are reporting nothing but that everything is calm, there is no “mining” or any of that crap. As someone above noted, if the Ukrainians want to blow up a nuclear plant, they have several under their control that they can choose from.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 23:14 utc | 190
This one we can probably rule out in less than two weeks. Lets hope it’ll pass.
Simplicius mentioned that AFU might even make their hike with infantry across the drained river, however suicidal, and they’ll throw everything they have everywhere on the front on the runup to the Nato meeting. If they plan to use ZNPP for some disinfo operation, it would probably involve the photoshoot with the plant on the background with information that RU forces ran away – after which, there may or may not be some sort of plant incident or more than likely, US simply faking the radiation data to fit a narrative.
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 2 2023 0:21 utc | 204
Is it possible to create a WWII thread for those Barflies who wish to (endlessly) revisit that history ?
Sometimes 2/3s of the Ukraine threads are discussing some minutia of WWII. It’s frankly a bit dull. Almost like going into obsessive detail about Waterloo (1815) EIGHTY years later (aka 1895).
Posted by: Exile | Jul 1 2023 16:21 utc | 10
Those who don’t understand history, are doomed to repeat it
Those who do, are doomed to watch as everybody else repeats it
Posted by: Rattus | Jul 2 2023 0:26 utc | 205
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 2 2023 0:17 utc | 206
Its not my idea. I was just countering somebody calling Shoigu and Gerasimov fools or traitors for not creating a buffer zone around ZNPP.
I would have no idea how to break the stalemate at the front, and I certainly would not know better than those two, especially considering I have suspicions of Putin’s strategic goals, but certainly nothing I would claim to be the “ideas guy” Russia needs to win.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 0:27 utc | 206
kupkee@185
(Others should scroll past)
The first post war iteration of the Welfare State was in the UK where the Labour government was elected to carry out the Beveridge Report’s recommendations and the programme, including an NHS, outlined in the manifesto which brought Labour a landslide majority.
At the same time that Labour was carrying out its programme the US called in its debt by way of ending lend lease and, to put it in simple terms, taking advantage of the UK’s weakness after years of war, imposing the Bretton Woods settlement on the UK.
As to Defence: the UK was spending a much higher proportion of the national income, largely in attempts to hold on to the Empire (from which it got the dollars that the usurers in Washington demanded), than the US was. It continued to do so until at least the mid-fifties.
This expenditure included financing the British Army on the Rhine, a force of some tens of thousands which existed from 1945 for half a century.
Conscription of 18 year olds (men only, sadly) ran from 1942 to 1960. THe UK was the most highly mobilised population in the world during the war.
What American taxpayers might want to consider is not the nonsense that they paid for Europe’s defence, but that the decades of relative prosperity they enjoyed after the War, were based in some considerable part on taxing the working class of Britain, whose sole hedge against poverty was, for many years, the Welfare State that, ever since its introduction has been the object of US ruling class hostility. And is now crumbling much to the satisfaction of the US oligarchy for whom the only good worker is an enslaved worker.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 2 2023 0:28 utc | 207
what the
how thid dhes channel even appear
some green intelligence magic!?
Posted by: Macpott | Jul 2 2023 0:30 utc | 208
We should be discussing the “tit for tat” implications of what is revealed here:
http://infobrics.org/post/38703/
Posted by: windjammer | Jul 2 2023 0:31 utc | 209
Unfortunately; as an American, I resemble that remark. President Trump was the only President who refused to initiate a new foreign war without a declaration of war from Congress as our Constitution requires. For that grievous offense, he was impeached.
Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Jul 1 2023 15:57 utc | 5
You mean the guy who reversed policy to send American military assistance to Ukraine? And he waged no wars without Congressional approval? That’s news to Africa.
Posted by: Gengar | Jul 1 2023 21:49 utc | 156
Where in Africa did Trump wage war?
Yes, Trump did escalate to providing lethal aid to Ukraine. This is an example of the untoward influence of the Deep State bureaucracy that presumes to dictate to the President that US policy is effectively dictated by the precedents of previous Presidents as interpreted by the Pentagon and State Department. Keep in mind that many Americans believe that President Kennedy was assassinated by the CIA, Pentagon and FBI in retaliation for agreeing to withdraw Jupiter nuclear missiles from Turkey and Italy in return for the Soviet Union withdrawing nuclear missiles from Cuba. Also keep in mind that President Clinton was the first US President since before WW2 that had zero military experience. He was the imbecile who could be easily manipulated into the relentless expansion of NATO when it should have been disbanded.
That isn’t the same as waging a war without an actual declaration of war by Congress. President Trump is the first and only President since World War 2 to not wage war without a declaration of war from Congress.
Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Jul 2 2023 0:32 utc | 210
I’m hoping the riots in France are a step toward that goal.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2023 22:01 utc | 164
Nah. Clearly the current French riots are racial in nature. Nothing to do with geopolitics of Ukraine. Same as the yellow vests of 2018. Just angry personal politics. And even with Macron out and ?LePen? in, there’ll still be delinquent black youths vs the police, poor black migrants vs the white Euro-snobs, neo-Marxists vs neo-fascists. As per the name of one bar member “France is Fucked”.
Like you, I fantasize about an EU revolution against The Empire in support of commonsense and peace. But see no real chance. Too asleep and indoctrinated and lazy.
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jul 2 2023 0:42 utc | 211
regarding why?
“The only thing I can figure for why we are running the war in the way we are is that it is being run by our political class”
Is this part of why the war is dragging on and on? Its back to the great
reset? see article at nexusnewsfeed-Ukraine could become world’s first
cashless economy – official.
Not to mention the depopulation agenda. All those innocent people on both
sides being killed maimed.
also all the weaponty and money etc being “given ” to ukre alreadykrainaine
comes with strings attached. It all has to b paid bak the IMF, world bank
way.
not to mention that all the predators like american companies blackrock etc
hav their filthy hooks in ukraine already.
This goes to what the council on foreign relations said many years ago.
The U.S. doesn’t hav to win these wars they get into. As long as the
profits are flowing and the tick buries its head deep into the victim its
all gravy. Dead people, ruined country no problemo for these psycopaths.
As long as they are profiting and seems they believe they are advancing
their globalist agenda its gonna be to fight to the last Ukie and kill as
many russians as possible. I think the UKies and ruskies being “cousins”
shoild join together and kick the instigators of this mess in the ASS!
As i once read “kill them all (whos behind this crime against humanity)
and let god sort it out.
Not to mention the huge amount of graft these “wars” allow the U.S. to
perpetrate on the taxpayers. and thats just part of it!
Posted by: billy | Jul 2 2023 0:45 utc | 212
As many know, the spent fuel storage at ZNPP is apparently much more vulnerable than the reactors.
Why cant Russia gradually remove it out of harm’s way? A couple of hundred warmish 44 gallon drums would only take a few nights to fridge-truck off to another cooling pond. Aren’t there other RF NPPs they could go to?
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jul 2 2023 0:50 utc | 213
What’s the future of Ukraine’s most zealous supporter – Britain?
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2023/jun/29/uk-households-withdrawing-savings-at-fastest-ever-rate-official-figures-show
There are different ways to interpret this drawdown of savings. The easiest is that Britain is going broke with inflation rampant. Historically, it’s huge, maybe the biggest ever. They can’t afford their military as it is.
Posted by: Eighthman | Jul 2 2023 0:55 utc | 214
Posted by: michaelj72 | Jul 2 2023 0:17 utc | 207
My jaw hit the floor when I saw that. At first I thought it was a deepfake vid, then remembered that Ms Thunderberg is now one of the political ‘regulars’… Just another f’n Clown World Show…
Posted by: nathan in WA US | Jul 2 2023 1:04 utc | 215
@ UWDude | Jul 2 2023 0:27 utc | 210
Yes, I got that. I was widening the perspective with preventing just that. Nobody knows RF’s military goals and aims. Or that was the intention of my comment. It is known how things are done there, from many past wars. One doesn’t stop at the river crossing but goes on quickly to widen the buffer-zone for easier logistics delivery. We are talking about achieving 50 km in-depth and 200 km wide op.
The issue was no airborne troops without advance of ground troops.
On anything around NPP, is unknown pile of unknowns, so no comment there.
Why and how is that an issue? Again.
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 2 2023 1:05 utc | 216
Another little tidbit from the guardian displaying the futlity of sanctions .
Shipping oil and liquid gas around the world has also been a very profitable business. According to the shipping consultancy Drewry, in the three years from 2020 to 2022, the industry generated as much profit as it had during the previous six decades combined.
Also, companies like nestle and other major food companies are profiteering from price gouging.
Posted by: Oh | Jul 2 2023 1:09 utc | 217
Posted by: whirlX | Jul 2 2023 1:05 utc | 220
Oh, my bad. Karlof has proposed a couple of time to do an airjump to secure the right bank.
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 1:09 utc | 218
Posted by: windjammer | Jul 2 2023 0:31 utc | 213
“We should be discussing the “tit for tat” implications of what is revealed here:
http://infobrics.org/post/38703/
You’re right, Windjammer. We should be discussing this. I don’t know whether others were aware of it but I certainly wasn’t. Thank you for posting the link. Below are the opening paragraphs of the article, just so barflies know what this is about:
Amid numerous disturbing reports about possible false flag operations involving nuclear devices and weapons, the Kiev regime seems to be escalating its actions in this regard. According to various local sources, the South Ukraine Nuclear Power Plant (NPP), located in the city of Yuzhnoukrainsk in the Nikolayev region (oblast), has been effectively taken over by the Neo-Nazi junta forces. Although troops have been stationed in and around the NPP since the start of the special military operation (SMO), in recent weeks this has escalated. Apparently, mysterious “guards” have appeared at the NPP and have even restricted access to the reactor facilities, including to the staff responsible for the critically important maintenance of the reactor and the NPP’s key systems and subsystems.
Worse yet, the “guards” are offering no explanation for their behavior, nor does anyone else, be it the military or civilian authorities. In essence, nobody really knows for sure, but many people are skeptical (to say the least). The “guards” have even placed what can only be described as ammunition crates inside the NPP. And it doesn’t seem to be small arms ammunition, but something much bigger, such as shells or even rockets, all of which have foreign markings. For over a year, there have been numerous reports about the Kiev regime hiding NATO-sourced weapons there, obviously in an attempt to prevent their destruction. Needless to say, having any sort of weapons at a nuclear facility of any kind is suicidal in and of itself, but having shells and rockets stored there is simply criminal.
Posted by: Mexicana | Jul 2 2023 1:10 utc | 219
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jul 1 2023 21:48 utc | 154
Re Mearshiemer’s latest article:
He states at the outset, his analysis is not about personal agendas but is purely logical-analytical. Hmmm, everyone has a bias, be it conscious or unconscious. His many other talks and writings clearly show he is an avid US-hegemon supporter at base. Since his book and 2022 public re-emergence from pariahship on behalf of the alt-Ukraine camp, he has just spouted the one thing, like a cracked record, ie, NATO moving east caused the SMO.
But two years of careful observations and thinking has, imo, woken him up a lot. So biases aside,I happen to agree with all of his latest — which does not make me or him right or wrong, just same-viewed.
Imo, he well-argued the 3-way existential perceptions and motives of RF, Ukraine, NATO(-US), such that talks are impossible, with the only likely outcome as a “messy win” for Russia over THE LONG TERM. This, to me, is 100% realist.
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jul 2 2023 1:15 utc | 220
Eighthman | Jul 2 2023 0:55 utc | 218
The Brits I know in Spain are opening Spanish bank accounts and converting to Euros. Keeping their rental properties in the UK of course.
Posted by: dh | Jul 2 2023 1:21 utc | 221
Reasons for twtr tizzy (conjecture from the interwebs)
France (+Belgium)
Musk ordered to shut down vids of French early Bastille Day festivities under French law.
EU had already threatened twtr for allowing thought criminals to tweet.
Tucker Carlson + RFKjr, etc. twtr becoming too open to the “wrong” voices.
Money. (Doh!)
And of course the Ukraine war. The pics of destroyed USNATO toys becoming too hard to hide… and can’t be reassigned as Russian losses, because obviously western not Soviet.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 2 2023 1:26 utc | 222
@1 – Posted by: Crazy chump | Jul 1 2023 15:44 utc | 1
So that’s an example, what also could happen within next days, against the always BLUE-YELLOW publicly dressed Missus v.d.Liar or v.d.Mining, when speaking about another >60 Bln EUR support for “UKR” ..
Where is the sniper behind focusing the zoom at this person, just now ? …
Posted by: spare_truth | Jul 2 2023 1:32 utc | 224
James @160
Tom_A @171
Thanks! We should always be thankful for thoughtful readership.
Pretzelattack @164
I’m very much with you on not seeing Ukraine anything longer as the primary combatant–as you say, we may yet hope for at least some countries–Hungary, perhaps Turkey, even maybe France–peeling away from NATO.
But I wonder if Russia has decided they can’t much longer avoid giving the US a bloody nose directly. And a false-flag at the ZNPP might just be that moment.
Many speculate that RF will move into higher gear after the Offensive is spent. Maybe so. But it may be that RF keeps applying steadily increasing pressure along the line–until such time as they can feel confident that NATO will no longer attack directly.
Until then, I suspect that RF will continue to pursue its goals, but prefers to fight NATO from SE Ukraine rather than while being spread out all the way to the Polish border.
LightYearsFromHome @173
Not often being suspected to be a master-debater can be treated as a compliment. Thanks!
Ahenobarbus (sp?) @177
I appreciate Hudson (especially in written form), and though I haven’t read Lenin I see nothing to fear and much to gain. So thank you.
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jul 2 2023 1:34 utc | 225
Another good article up at Simplicius site.
Without further degrading Ukrainian AD Russia will not attempt an offensive, except to continue grinding all along the front. I don’t expect the Ukrainian offensive to end until October, so this still has a long ways to go.
Generally Russia will continue to play defense, until two things happen, the Ukrainian Army loses it’s offensive capability and Russia eliminates Ukraine’s AD. Simplicius is right, this war has a long way to go yet.
Mid 2025 is my guess, at that point the Donbas nut will have cracked and Russia will be pushing towards the Dnieper and sieging Kharkiv. At that point either NATO will involve itself directly leading to nuclear war shortly after, or a peace deal will be reached ceding Crimea and the four Donbas Republics along with a Neutral Ukraine agreement.
Russia has no plans to take all of Ukraine, never has.
Not to toot my own horn, and not saying that I have prognosticated correctly 100% of the time, but I have been right more than anybody at this site or any other for that matter.
Posted by: Haassaan | Jul 2 2023 1:42 utc | 226
A ZNNP threat, sometimes claimed by the UKR-President Elendsky-Piano-Cock player:
Answer to an unknown question by an unknown intelligent person:
“Why cannot “take-away” all not-cooling nuclear materials of this ZNNP site ?”
IAEA should do this, asap !
Posted by: spare_truth | Jul 2 2023 1:51 utc | 227
Posted by: KitaySupporter | Jul 2 2023 0:13 utc | 205
I used to follow his stuff regularly as a subscriber, but when I decided to cut back on Ukraine stuff (as most of it is irrelevant to the ultimate outcome) and when he started talking about the war going on for 2-5 years, I dumped him
He packs a lot of information into his articles, I agree. But as I said in my post, a lot of it is just recapping the nonsense from the Western media to fill up his post. Count how many paragraphs he actually writes; not that paragraph count counts. 🙂 And his assessments of how the stuff he’s posting from the Western media is nonsense is, of course, spot on.
But his own interpretations seem to be off the mark, at least in some cases. This article is one of them.
I’m not blanket denouncing his stuff, I just don’t agree with him on various points.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 1:53 utc | 228
Belarus Wagner speculation.
https://apnews.com/article/russia-belarus-wagner-ukraine-mercenary-mercenaries-lukashenko-82d304924c6531b95fba279acd783a84
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 2 2023 1:55 utc | 229
Long time lurker, first time post. Thank you B and commenters for the information on this site.
Re: ZNPP false flag attempt,
FWIW, all nuclear detonations, accidents, etc, have a radioisotope signature – particular to the material and facility from which the material is derived. A timely forensic analysis of this signature following an incident rules in/rules out possibilities of the derivation of the material and may even pinpoint the origin.
Therefore, it would be difficult to “suitcase” in (in a artillery shell, missile, etc) material from another reactor/source and attempt to claim it was from a ZNPP incident. Certainly IAEA and Rosatom/Russia are very aware of the radioisotope signature of ZNPP.
Of course, the West and it’s propaganda organs would never allow such evidence to enter the public sphere.
Posted by: Spasiba | Jul 2 2023 1:55 utc | 230
Posted by: unimperator | Jul 2 2023 0:21 utc | 208
I agree. It’s all PR, all day, every day, from Ukraine and the West. Tune in tomorrow for the next exciting episode!
I’d rather watch “The Blacklist”, which, unfortunately, is ending its run in the next couple episodes. Gonna miss ol’ “Red” Reddington.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 1:55 utc | 231
CIA called Kremlin to assure no involvement with Priggo’s million man mutiny march on Moscow (MMMMM).
https://www.wsj.com/articles/cia-chief-william-burns-called-to-reassure-kremlin-after-wagner-mutiny-a5016557
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 2 2023 1:58 utc | 232
ZNPP-threat:
UKR and US/UK-guiding guys still have only 1 option open today:
Fire at the cooling pools, make them the water running off asap. and then it’s empty for a further discussions about ceasefire, then fire will start immediately eg. to RAMSTEIN ..
Posted by: spare_truth | Jul 2 2023 2:05 utc | 233
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 0:27 utc | 210
“certainly nothing I would claim to be the “ideas guy” Russia needs to win.”
That would be me. 🙂
I once made the offer – to anyone who would read it on the particular site, as I do here – to capture Osama bin Laden – dead or alive, but dead is better – within 90 days at a fixed cost of one billion dollars, expenses taken out of that sum, at which price I expected to make a profit of 900 million dollars.
This was done to express my opinion that the CIA were simply refusing to find him, with all their resources. I watched “Zero Dark Thirty”, that was a joke. The aftermath, with them burying the alleged body at sea, well, no one bought that.
But I was serious. You give me a billion dollars and I’ll do damn near anything you want. That’s a LOT of money in actual cash. It doesn’t take much brains to do something useful with that much money, which is why I’m amazed at how fucked up all these billionaires actually are, spending it on mansions, cars, yachts, planes, etc.
There was a guy at LinkedIn who posted an article that said the top billionaires in the world had 24 trillion dollars IN CASH – explicitly NOT including all the assets I listed above plus stocks, bonds, precious metals or gems, etc. He said they could give away 12 trillion dollars for any purpose and STILL have 12 trillion in cash left over.
Think about that. These people need to go because wasting that kind of resource is the only real criminality.
Excuse my off-topic rant. I had to respond to your “I’m not the ideas guy”. It seems almost no one is. Certainly not Elon Musk.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 2:07 utc | 234
Posted by: windjammer | Jul 2 2023 0:31 utc | 213
This guy is saying the Ukrainians are prepared to blow up their own nuclear power plant… BUT they’ve also made it their ISR command center.
What’s wrong with this picture?
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 2:09 utc | 235
Posted by: Haassaan | Jul 2 2023 1:42 utc | 230
“Russia has no plans to take all of Ukraine, never has.”
Wrong.
“Not to toot my own horn”
As he toots it…
“and not saying that I have prognosticated correctly 100% of the time, but I have been right more than anybody at this site or any other for that matter.”
Even I wouldn’t make a claim like that. And since no one will ever fucking remember whatever you said last week here, let alone ever, it’s an easy claim to make.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 2:14 utc | 236
If NATO support is found in the terrorist attack on Nord Stream, Russia must retaliate by destroying some trans Atlantic undersea internet cables.
Only such action can force NATO to abandon terrorism.
Posted by: Jason | Jul 2 2023 2:15 utc | 237
US supplied weapons to Ukraine have been found in the hands of anti racism rebels in France.
That’s an interesting development.
Posted by: Jason | Jul 2 2023 2:17 utc | 238
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 2:07 utc | 238
.. Excuse my off-topic rant. ..
No matter here to excuse.
The off-topic RAND paper is another fact-based document where now to have followed-up the next days & weeks. Let’s go “BLUE-YELLOW” publicly dressed !
Like U.v.d.Liars / U.v.d.Minings, etc. and all those puppets not yet having a sniper behind their shoulder ..
Posted by: spare_truth | Jul 2 2023 2:21 utc | 239
james no. 157
That’s what i was afraid of. But didn’t want to voice it because it’s so obscene. Hopefully it is just rhetoric to instill more fear.
Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 2 2023 2:26 utc | 240
For ALL those warmongers, pro-Ukraine, Russian haters. Should be reminded of what the US of A did when IT illegally invaded Iraq, tortured, raped, de-humanized ‘Abu Ghraib’ prisoners, killed millions of Iraqi’s according to a ‘Lancet’ study which the US/UK discredit the numbers, but when it involves other countries atrocities, they fully back the Lancet study.
This is your beloved country that defends freedom and democracy.
how quickly we as the people forget, and cheer for war.
Love and chase PEACE
Posted by: crazycanuck | Jul 2 2023 2:27 utc | 241
Posted by: Jason | Jul 2 2023 2:17 utc | 242
Now the question. Are these weapons coming from the corrupt AFU or is Russia doing a timber sycamore? If it’s the corrupt as fuck AFU then it’s not as bad as if the RF has decided to pay France back for Syria. Next question is if any of those weapons wind up in the USA. Time will tell I guess.
Posted by: badjoke | Jul 2 2023 2:39 utc | 242
.. and destroying the “Under-Seawater communications” will only affect such Internet users like me & yours ..
But not the dear Misters of Biden and Putin etc.
Beside a question: What would the green girl GRETA Thunberg company just have spoken with the Piano-Cock-Player Elendski in Kiew ?
I do not know – but is it simply a PR gag .. for what of a climate change after the ZNPP “incident” –
So GRETA T. : Pls. fix yourself in front of this ZNNP and take bath in the cooling pools !
Posted by: spare_truth | Jul 2 2023 2:40 utc | 243
Spasiba | Jul 2 2023 1:55 utc | 234
Evidence/ investigation of an “incident” at ZapNPP or wherever.
In a world where Sunday sailors on catamarans can take out the NS2, no one cares about “evidence” or impartial investigations.
The IAEA buys the farce that Russia, while in control of and having troops installed, is firing HIMARS missiles at ZapNPP from Ukrainian territory.
If ZapNPP is false flagged, no one will do anything other than blame Russia.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 2 2023 2:43 utc | 244
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 0:04 utc | 202
Touché!
Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 2 2023 2:55 utc | 245
@ Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 21:03 utc | 128
“Hovercrafts! We NEED Hovercrafts. NATO/OTAN should send us Hovercrafts as soon as possible!!”
Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jul 2 2023 3:03 utc | 246
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 2 2023 2:43 utc | 248
.. missiles at ZapNPP from Ukrainian territory.
..
If ZapNPP is false flagged, no one will do anything other than blame Russia.
That’s correct. But no one else then would be able to document this fact.
So let’s wait what’s our “commanders” will decide, if not yet have been “eliminated by snipers” or by a real folk-based decision, eg. Elections ..
Posted by: spare_truth | Jul 2 2023 3:08 utc | 247
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 23:14 utc | 190
Wagner to Belarus
Not an official anything but this is the camp that is supposed to be being built for them.
https://twitter.com/Flash_news_ua/status/1675240183535476739
Posted by: Tim2 | Jul 2 2023 3:11 utc | 248
The Dolphin | Jul 2 2023 0:50 utc | 217
*** Why cant Russia gradually remove it out of harm’s way? A couple of hundred warmish 44 gallon drums would only take a few nights to fridge-truck off to another cooling pond. Aren’t there other RF NPPs they could go to?***
No doubt Kiev would cooperate by shelling any electrons that tried to escape.
Posted by: Cynic | Jul 2 2023 3:15 utc | 249
Soooo.. any proof of 7 downed choppers and 29 pilots killed by priggy yet? Any names?
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 3:20 utc | 250
Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jul 2 2023 3:03 utc | 250
as ref.by karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 21:03 utc | 128
.. “Hovercrafts! We NEED Hovercrafts. NATO/OTAN should send us Hovercrafts as soon as possible!!” ..
Asap. is not possible, because the shipment of those would be detected in advance by the RF-Intel guys.
But: Would be a good help – as a PR gag for EU chief U.v.Liars (claiming a new 66 Bln EURs) – to cross the biggest river of Ukraine, before then – this UKR offensive – having been eliminated by RF-Drones ..
once more ..
Posted by: spare_truth | Jul 2 2023 3:24 utc | 251
This certainly is another barflea infested thread with all sorts of OT bullshit
These new barfleas must be here so they can tell their friends they comment at MoA or are being paid to ZHdize the MoA comment threads
Stay on topic, add succinct value to the on-topic related conversations or STFU!
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jul 2 2023 3:30 utc | 252
Posted by: Crazy chump | Jul 1 2023 16:01 utc | 6
Madness, but with a cynical methodology involved. The West doesn’t want every dime it gives Ukraine to go to its Ministry of Defense, and the budgets of other governmental bureaucracies. No, in America for example, the congresscritters there want to see that their appropriation bills allow for a lot of the money sent to Ukraine is earmarked for humanitarian aid that goes directly or indirectly to the civilian population.
So what better way for Kiev to get that money back then to raise taxes and fees? Ukraine is like the town of Sweethaven in the 1980 film starring Robin Williams, Popeye.
The Tax Man : You just docked?
Popeye : I has.
The Tax Man : Ah ha, let’s see here, that’ll be 25¢ docking tax.
Popeye : What for?
The Tax Man : Where’s your sea craft?
Popeye : It ain’t no sea craft, it’s me dinghy and it’s under the wharf.
The Tax Man : Ah ha. Ahh-ha. This your goods?
Popeye : They is.
The Tax Man : Yeah. You’re new in town right?
Popeye : If you call this a town, yes.
The Tax Man : Well, first of all, there’s 17¢ new-in-town tax, and there’s 45¢ rowboat-under-the-wharf tax, and one dollar leaving-your-junk-lying-around-the-wharf tax, so all together, you owe the Commodore $1.87.
Popeye : Uh, who’s this Commodore?
The Tax Man : Is that the nature of question? There’s a nickel question tax.
The Tax Man : One sunflower, embarrassing the Tax Man tax.
The Tax Man : Not up to no good, are you? Because if you are, there’s a 50 cent “up to no good” tax.
The Tax Man : You moved out of the Oyl?
Popeye : None of your business!
The Tax Man : Four dollars twenty-five cents, movin’ out tax.
Popeye : Nuts to you and nuts to your taxes!
The Tax Man : You moved in here?
Popeye : What’s it look like?
The Tax Man : Five dollars twenty-five cents, movin’ in tax.
Popeye : Don’t forget: double nuts!
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 2 2023 3:32 utc | 253
The Dolphin @224
Thanks for your additional context on Mearshimer’s current stance.
It’s a shame that Jacques Baud–Col (ret.) Swiss Military Intel, seconded to NATO in Donbass in 2014, author of 3 books (so far!) on the present conflict– doesn’t do more interviews in English. His English is quite good.
But am currently watching an interview in French, in which he argues for the legitimacy of the Russian intervention (not primarily because of the expansion of NATO) but to protect the Donbass population. He argues also for its *legality* in international law, while granting that this could only be adjudicated by a currently unavailable body to weigh these matters in a trustworthy fashion.
He has a very relaxed and genial manner, which is something of a nice break from some of the more strident voices in this space.
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jul 2 2023 3:33 utc | 254
Mike pence pilgrimage to Kiev was mostly ignored.
As it should be.
But still. How irrelevant can a presidential candidate be if he can’t even score a participation point for obsequious service to the clown-king of Kiev.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 2 2023 3:34 utc | 255
Can China have a “Wagner” moment? Harder, because a political Commissar outranks a general for personnel, one general is in charge only of arms and another only for ammo. See the level of mutual “trust”? Xi Jinping has also chopped op longstanding army groups such that they will fight each other in case of mutiny. This Chinese ex-PLA Colonel says that 90% of the energy goes into halting internal uprising / war.
Still Xi Jinping fears loose cannons in the PLA, justified because it can lead to a civil war over a mutiny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajP0KjGxv-Y
Posted by: Antonym | Jul 2 2023 3:34 utc | 256
Antonym | Jul 2 2023 3:34 utc | 260
Such concern about hypothetical unrest in China.
France is in flames with rioting, raping and robbing right now.
Conflagration has spread to Belgium and now Switzerland.
But yeah. China.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 2 2023 3:39 utc | 257
I find that the posts by self-identified West Coast (and mountain states) people from the US or Canada at MoA seem more apt to question the media narratives than are self-identified East Coast US and Canadian people. Not just about this this Ukie conflict, but over many years of observing. Matbe there still is a more independent and, for lack of vocabulary “fearless truth-telling” attitude on the western side of North America. Obviously there are a lot of exceptions. More people thinking freely and not as constrained by the “narratives” pushed so hard by the US and Canadian governments and TV and legacy newspapers and Hollywood. Just an observation. Off-topic. Not trying to be divisive. Just seems West coasters are generally more apt to question government and media storylines, per capita.
I do find it disheartening that Bevin resorts to using the “conspiracy theory” smear repeatedly. I hate that term, and the way it is used to try to stifle free debate about certain topics.
Posted by: Wisco | Jul 2 2023 3:39 utc | 258
Posted by: Cynic | Jul 2 2023 3:15 utc | 253
ref:
.. The Dolphin | Jul 2 2023 0:50 utc | 217
*** Why cant Russia gradually remove it out of harm’s way? A couple of hundred warmish 44 gallon drums would only take a few nights to fridge-truck off to another cooling pond. Aren’t there other RF NPPs they could go to?***
..
No doubt Kiev would cooperate by shelling any electrons that tried to escape.
Ok – but that’s not only “electrons” you just mentioned.
There is a mixed radioactive “elements” You might have forgotten, as it is working in Your body for a life-long period, when consuming anything grain (Deal whats going?) or other vegetables from UKR or from West, depends on the current wind direction ..
So best suggestion from my side to UKR/US/UK Intel guys for a false-flag on ZNPP “incident” is as follows:
! Wait to do that, perform strictly your officers commands – but if the wind is not blowing to East, stop that action and await further commands.
Posted by: spare_truth | Jul 2 2023 3:44 utc | 259
Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 1 2023 20:20 utc | 101
I read a bit of trivia that claimed one explanation for the horses reacting to her name is because it could be translated to “glue”. Which would be a reference to the old adage of sending broken down horses to a glue factory. Lol, sounds like something Mel Brooks would come up with!
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 2 2023 3:44 utc | 260
Question:
why did Merkel, Hollande and Poroshenko admit that the Minsk agreements were a ruse to ‘give Ukraine more time’ ?
It seems to me that this disclosure was coordinated, but why, what was the purpose?
Posted by: fanto | Jul 2 2023 3:52 utc | 261
@ ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 2 2023 2:26 utc | 244
true, but obscene is a specialty of nato -the west and of course their puppet ukraine… so these kinds of crazy ideas totally fit into the mold they have going..i don’t expect much different..
@ Paul Damascene | Jul 2 2023 3:33 utc | 258
that jacques buad fellow has some good videos on youtube, but one needs to be patient and read english subtitles… i saw one recently of his where he is talking about how nato-west can’t make the ammunition that russia can and that is a problem and will continue to be a problem for the foreseeable future… it might change further out in time in a few years – but not in the next year or two… i trust his take on that… he is worth seeking out on youtube.. cheers!
@ richard steven hack – always fun to read your commentary.. i agree with some of your take on simplicius, and yet i really appreciate what simplicius has to share, even if it is a bit too much info… i dig the guy for offering up all he is offering…
Posted by: james | Jul 2 2023 4:01 utc | 262
@ fanto | Jul 2 2023 3:52 utc | 265
i don’t know that it was coordinated, but it is an interesting conjecture on your part.. maybe… i think it came out semi accidentally.. but put together it basically was the last nail in the coffin of the west making any kind of agreement with russia moving forward.. they really fucked it for nato and friends… i think russia won’t be fooled again..
putin as keith moon, lol..
Posted by: james | Jul 2 2023 4:04 utc | 263
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 21:59 utc | 162
I always imagined there was a sliver of subtext added into that scene in that the soldiers in their high tech body armor appeared to be of European descent, came across as mercenaries, and were in the employ of an Eastern/Asian potentate (I took that to be who Q was playing).
Which could have been the writer, D.C. Fontana* (or Roddenberry), taking a swipe at what she saw as being the future of America’s military, fighting wars at the behest of resource rich nations, and/or becoming their Janisaries**.
*Funny enough, she went on to write The War Prayer for the JMS SF TV show Babylon 5. Just the other day here I linked to that story by Mark Twain, which JMS wanted to remind the world of. Very anti-war, just like Encounter at Far Point.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D._C._Fontana
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_War_Prayer_(Babylon_5)
**https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 2 2023 4:08 utc | 264
Does anyone think the Ukraine will be allowed to be managed by Blackrock at the end of the SMO? As much as Putin says he doensn’t want to control/occupy Ukraine how else to keep The Western Big Ag conglomerates out?
Posted by: comrade simba | Jul 2 2023 4:12 utc | 265
Posted by: james | Jul 2 2023 4:04 utc | 267
Thanks for The Who link. I do like them. Title appropriate to the topic. The entry at 270 is not clear to me. Is that someone else using your name?
Posted by: fanto | Jul 2 2023 4:22 utc | 266
Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 1 2023 20:13 utc | 96
… I’m wondering what kind of people Shoigu and Gerasimov really are and what their goals are.
Anyone disinclined to question their abilities or character should at least be able to explain examples of their conduct that are acknowledged by all concerned.
Limit your concern to Shoigu, not Gerasimov. Gerasimov is military strategy. Shoigu is logistics and strategic safety.
Consider that there is nobody on the face of the earth right now with a longer track record of managing civil safety under conditions of political and military instability than Sergei Shoigu.
Not.
a.
Single.
Person.
You can wonder all you like but in the end you’ll wonder no matter who was in charge of the situation. Nobody has been in this situation before. Nobody. Shoigu is breaking new ground here and there is nobody better placed to handle this other than perhaps Putin himself.
So it would appear your ‘concern’ is rather misplaced.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 2 2023 4:27 utc | 267
Posted by: comrade simba | Jul 2 2023 4:12 utc | 269
Does anyone think the Ukraine will be allowed to be managed by Blackrock at the end of the SMO?
After the SMO whatever part of Ukraine that still remains under Western control will certainly be sold off to Blackrock.
It will not even be enough to pay the military debt owed to western countries for the “lend lease” scam that’s been run on that country.
As for the rest of Ukraine under Russian control (by proxy, by puppet, by voluntary allegiance) will be rebuilt using Chinese and Russian labour:
The Landsberger collection
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 2 2023 4:34 utc | 268
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 3:20 utc | 254
Well, a Google search finds this:
Pskov and Ivanovo authorities acknowledged deaths of pilots during Wagner mutiny
https://semnasem.org/news/2023/06/29/pskov-and-ivanovo-authorities-acknowledged-deaths-of-pilots-during-wagner-mutiny
It references a Telegram post (highlighting is mine):
https://t.me/horizontal_russia/24731
The names of the pilots who died during the rebellion of Prigozhin, said the Pskov governor Mikhail Vedernikov told (https://t.me/MV_007_Pskov/2962) about the death of the crew members of the Ka-52 helicopter: Lieutenant Colonel Alexei Vorozhtsov and Lieutenant Denis Oleinikov. According to the governor, they did everything “to save our country from the devastating consequences of the reckless actions of the rebels.” The helicopter was shot down (https://t.me/horizontal_russia/24554?single) near the Voronezh village of Talovaya.
During the rebellion of Prigozhin, the Ministry of Defense lost (https://t.me/horizontal_russia/24584) at least seven units of air equipment. On June 27, Vladimir Putin announced a minute of silence in memory of the pilots shot down by Wagner PMC fighters. But he did not name the number of dead. Earlier, the anonymous Telegram channel of the Cheka-OGPU published (https://t.me/vchkogpu/39613?single) the names of eight crew members of the downed IL-22M. Channel One military commander Irina Kuksenkova said that ten people were on board the IL-22M and all of them died. Video by Mikhail Vedernikov
That last I highlighted was one I cast doubt on back when it was posted.
I also found this:
IStories speaks to family of pilot killed during PMC Wagner rebellion
Pro-Russian Telegram channels say 13 individuals were killed
https://novayagazeta.eu/articles/2023/06/26/istories-speaks-to-family-of-pilot-killed-during-pmc-wagner-rebellion-en-news
“Kirill’s helicopter was not combat.” The names of the pilots who died during the Wagner PMC mutiny became known. Updated
Note that the article references the same FighterBomber and HelicopterPilot Telegram channels and the Verska news site that I cast doubt on when they first posted this report. I see no reason to change my opinion on them.
I also found this:
“Important stories”: The names of the pilots who died during the Wagner PMC mutiny became known
https://russianfreepress.com/2023/06/26/important-stories-the-names-of-the-pilots-who-died-during-the-wagner-pmc-mutiny-became-known/
Note that that story was published on the 26th whereas these others were published later. So iStories appears to be the actual source.
Also note this quote which is interesting (highlighting is mine):
Journalists of the publication contacted the brother of the deceased, who said that the Ministry of Defense informed the family about the death of Kirill, but did not specify under what circumstances this happened. According to his brother, Kirill was on board a non-attack helicopter (probably a Mi-8MTPR – an electronic warfare helicopter) that “crashed on June 23”, presumably near Lugansk.
“I asked this question [about how Kirill died], they said that it is still unknown, then there will be information. [The fact that] “Wagners” are not sure yet, because the rebellion began after the helicopter crashed. This version is possible, but there is no clear evidence of any kind, ”the helicopter pilot’s brother quoted the publication as saying.
Meduza – which is banned in Russia – has this:
Ivanovo governor confirms crew of an Il-22 aircraft killed during Wagner rebellion
https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/06/28/ivanovo-governor-confirms-crew-of-an-il-22-aircraft-killed-during-wagner-rebellion
They also have this:
The governor of the Pskov region named the names of two pilots who died during the Wagner PMC rebellion
https://meduza.io/news/2023/06/28/gubernator-pskovskoy-oblasti-nazval-imena-dvuh-letchikov-pogibshih-vo-vremya-myatezha-chvk-vagnera
Their sources appears to be the “Important Stories” site.
According to Wikipedia, iStories is an “independent” Russian news site founded by people who left the other site above, Novaya Gazeta. They are located in Latvia, which tells you a lot about their orientation.
iStories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IStories
Novaya Gazeta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novaya_Gazeta
In other words, both of these sites as well as Meduza are anti-Russian “independent” news sites either banned or blocked in Russia and oriented around publishing everything bad they can find about Russia. Well, one can argue that’s what journalism should be doing. So whether they are “reliable” or not has to be determined by whether the stories they publish are actually correct – something I have no idea about and no interest in pursuing.
I have enough problems trying to keep up with the corruption in US media.
So all we can say is that it is claimed that a Russian governor of one oblast named two pilots who died. Another pilot may or may not have died either before or during the Wagner stunt – remember that I had seen a report before the stunt occurred which said an Mi-8 helicopter had made a “hard landing”. The rest of the alleged pilots appear to be “named” by the same Telegram sites that reported the initial stories without providing any evidence except one crappy, probably faked video of what was alleged to be a downed helicopter on fire.
Zero Russian official confirmation of any of this outside of the one oblast governor.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 4:51 utc | 269
Made a huge post about the naming of the downed pilots…
Fucking filter won’t accept it… FIX THIS PIECE OF SHIT, B!
So let’s try it in bits and pieces with my alternate user ID…
Part One:
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 3:20 utc | 254
Well, a Google search finds this:
Pskov and Ivanovo authorities acknowledged deaths of pilots during Wagner mutiny
https://semnasem.org/news/2023/06/29/pskov-and-ivanovo-authorities-acknowledged-deaths-of-pilots-during-wagner-mutiny
It references a Telegram post (highlighting is mine):
https://t.me/horizontal_russia/24731
The names of the pilots who died during the rebellion of Prigozhin, said the Pskov governor Mikhail Vedernikov told (https://t.me/MV_007_Pskov/2962) about the death of the crew members of the Ka-52 helicopter: Lieutenant Colonel Alexei Vorozhtsov and Lieutenant Denis Oleinikov. According to the governor, they did everything “to save our country from the devastating consequences of the reckless actions of the rebels.” The helicopter was shot down (https://t.me/horizontal_russia/24554?single) near the Voronezh village of Talovaya.
During the rebellion of Prigozhin, the Ministry of Defense lost (https://t.me/horizontal_russia/24584) at least seven units of air equipment. On June 27, Vladimir Putin announced a minute of silence in memory of the pilots shot down by Wagner PMC fighters. But he did not name the number of dead. Earlier, the anonymous Telegram channel of the Cheka-OGPU published (https://t.me/vchkogpu/39613?single) the names of eight crew members of the downed IL-22M. Channel One military commander Irina Kuksenkova said that ten people were on board the IL-22M and all of them died. Video by Mikhail Vedernikov
That last I highlighted was one I cast doubt on back when it was posted.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 4:55 utc | 270
Better, better…
Part 2:
I also found this:
IStories speaks to family of pilot killed during PMC Wagner rebellion
Pro-Russian Telegram channels say 13 individuals were killed
https://novayagazeta.eu/articles/2023/06/26/istories-speaks-to-family-of-pilot-killed-during-pmc-wagner-rebellion-en-news
“Kirill’s helicopter was not combat.” The names of the pilots who died during the Wagner PMC mutiny became known. Updated
Note that the article references the same FighterBomber and HelicopterPilot Telegram channels and the Verska news site that I cast doubt on when they first posted this report. I see no reason to change my opinion on them.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 4:57 utc | 271
Part 3:
I also found this:
“Important stories”: The names of the pilots who died during the Wagner PMC mutiny became known
https://russianfreepress.com/2023/06/26/important-stories-the-names-of-the-pilots-who-died-during-the-wagner-pmc-mutiny-became-known/
Note that that story was published on the 26th whereas these others were published later. So iStories appears to be the actual source.
Also note this quote which is interesting (highlighting is mine):
Journalists of the publication contacted the brother of the deceased, who said that the Ministry of Defense informed the family about the death of Kirill, but did not specify under what circumstances this happened. According to his brother, Kirill was on board a non-attack helicopter (probably a Mi-8MTPR – an electronic warfare helicopter) that “crashed on June 23”, presumably near Lugansk.
“I asked this question [about how Kirill died], they said that it is still unknown, then there will be information. [The fact that] “Wagners” are not sure yet, because the rebellion began after the helicopter crashed. This version is possible, but there is no clear evidence of any kind, ”the helicopter pilot’s brother quoted the publication as saying.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 4:58 utc | 272
Part 4:
Meduza – which is banned in Russia – has this:
Ivanovo governor confirms crew of an Il-22 aircraft killed during Wagner rebellion
https://meduza.io/en/news/2023/06/28/ivanovo-governor-confirms-crew-of-an-il-22-aircraft-killed-during-wagner-rebellion
They also have this:
The governor of the Pskov region named the names of two pilots who died during the Wagner PMC rebellion
https://meduza.io/news/2023/06/28/gubernator-pskovskoy-oblasti-nazval-imena-dvuh-letchikov-pogibshih-vo-vremya-myatezha-chvk-vagnera
Their sources appears to be the “Important Stories” site.
According to Wikipedia, iStories is an “independent” Russian news site founded by people who left the other site above, Novaya Gazeta. They are located in Latvia, which tells you a lot about their orientation.
iStories
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IStories
Novaya Gazeta
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novaya_Gazeta
In other words, both of these sites as well as Meduza are anti-Russian “independent” news sites either banned or blocked in Russia and oriented around publishing everything bad they can find about Russia. Well, one can argue that’s what journalism should be doing. So whether they are “reliable” or not has to be determined by whether the stories they publish are actually correct – something I have no idea about and no interest in pursuing.
I have enough problems trying to keep up with the corruption in US media.
So all we can say is that it is claimed that a Russian governor of one oblast named two pilots who died. Another pilot may or may not have died either before or during the Wagner stunt – remember that I had seen a report before the stunt occurred which said an Mi-8 helicopter had made a “hard landing”. The rest of the alleged pilots appear to be “named” by the same Telegram sites that reported the initial stories without providing any evidence except one crappy, probably faked video of what was alleged to be a downed helicopter on fire.
Zero Russian official confirmation of any of this outside of the one oblast governor.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 4:59 utc | 273
Re post 190
I just read Simplicius latest article…I call bullshit on most of it. … his interpretations are all over the place. … So 500-750,000 troops aren’t enough for a “blitzkrieg attack”?
Interesting. I like reading Simplicius’ articles but sometimes I get the nagging sense that I’m reading an overly positive WallStreetBets type “due diligence” post and that something is missing, i.e., an analysis of how everything could fall apart, the ways in which he could be wrong, and/or the fallibility of predictions. You on the other hand think he’s being too conservative. Maybe he’s in the right place — I’m definitely a glass half empty type of guy (but I’ve earned that perspective).
Posted by: ancow | Jul 2 2023 4:59 utc | 274
Is it possible to create a WWII thread for those Barflies who wish to (endlessly) revisit that history ?
Posted by: Exile | Jul 1 2023 16:21 utc | 10 <<<
And how about a permanant "Jew Thread" for all those who like to inject that topic into all sorts of perspectives, pro- or anti-, whether relevant or not.
Those who don't understand history, are doomed to repeat it
Those who do, are doomed to watch as everybody else repeats it
Posted by: Rattus | Jul 2 2023 0:26 utc | 209
@Exile was not denigrating knowledge of history per se, but just pointing out the amount of tangential historical substance clogging up these threads.
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jul 2 2023 5:00 utc | 275
I messed up the iStories link due to copying from my failed post to my editor and back again.
Here is the original iStories link:
“Kirill’s helicopter was not combat.” The names of the pilots who died during the Wagner PMC mutiny became known. Updated
https://storage.googleapis.com/istories/news/2023/06/26/vertolet-u-kirilla-bil-ne-boevoi-stali-izvestni-imena-letchikov-pogibshikh-vo-vremya-myatezha-chvk-vagner/index.html?utm_source=telegram&utm_medium=mainpage
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 5:02 utc | 276
Posted by: james | Jul 2 2023 5:09 utc | 284
You sure he’s homo? He could be bi… I mean, woke is woke, right? We can’t limit his choices! 🙂
Apparently that principle also means we can’t limit the choices of those who choose to be morons and assholes…
I prefer anarchism where morons and assholes have to deal with the direct consequences of same, i.e., a bullet in the head.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 5:16 utc | 277
@ Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 5:16 utc | 285
he has some fucked up sexual problem based on his stupid posts.. that much is clear.. woke, or whatever – the fellow is very insecure.. that much is apparent..
Posted by: james | Jul 2 2023 5:21 utc | 278
i am not sure this will fulfill jacques baud viewpoint nato and friends can’t get the ammo they need soon enough..
data from https://t.me/s/Slavyangrad
“The German defense concern Rheinmetall plans to launch a new production line due to the conflict in Ukraine.
According to Die Welt, the company is going to increase its capacity to the level of the 1980s, achieve production of up to 600,000 ammunition per year and hire hundreds of new employees.
According to the publication, Rheinmetall received 18% more orders in 2022 than a year earlier, and expects double-digit sales growth.
It is noted that now at the plant in the commune of Unterlus (Lower Saxony), thousands of people work in three shifts “to supply weapons to Ukraine.” We are talking about the release of shells, as well as the repair and preparation of the Marder infantry fighting vehicle, Leopard 2 tanks and Panzerhaubitze 2000 self-propelled guns.”
Posted by: james | Jul 2 2023 5:24 utc | 279
fanto | Jul 2 2023 3:52 utc | 265
Merkel, Hollande and Poroshenko / disclosure Minsk was to dupe Putin.
>…why, what was the purpose?
To make Putin look like a naive gullible easily fooled weak imbecile.
The disclosure was early days sloSMO.
USNATO was confident at that time they would “defeat” Russia.
Now they suspect Putin fooled them.
They gloat they used the time from 2014 to arm Ukraine.
And Russia was “running out of weapons” at the time they made their “haha, fooled ya” claim.
Now, as USNATO actually runs out of weapons, and Russia keeps escalating, they realise… ooops, Putin used the time from 2014 and failed Minsk, to arm Russia.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 2 2023 5:29 utc | 280
@ Melaleuca | Jul 2 2023 5:29 utc | 288
the usa in particular, but usa and friends did the proxy war with russia in syria, but it was only a matter of time from 2014 when they would shift over to using ukraine as the best location for their proxy war… so here we are 1 and 1/4 years into this smo of russias, while nato and friends have been preparing since 2014 in earnest, and it is no surprise who has their shit together and who doesn’t…
Posted by: james | Jul 2 2023 5:33 utc | 281
turkey figured out nato and friends ain’t their friends in the meantime and so they ain’t going along with natos bullshit.. kudos to them..
Posted by: james | Jul 2 2023 5:34 utc | 282
successful propaganda in the usa… these doofus’s believe the shit they read or watch on usa msm..
Americans Who Fought Putin Share ‘Horrifying’ War Surprises
Posted by: james | Jul 2 2023 6:01 utc | 283
A river is a natural barrier. Sun Tzu says, any idiot can see that.
Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 1 2023 23:58 utc | 201
God I’m sick of all the SunTzu quoters since the SMO started. So glib, banal, absolutist, faux profound, and so often antiquated and therefore irrelevant.
Oh really? A barrier? To what? Not boats or military pontoons crossing it. Not artillery or missiles across it. Not to drones and UAVs. Not to SF frogmen with waterproof explosives. Not to satellites. I’d love to see SunTzu’s “Art of War 2023 Edition”.
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jul 2 2023 6:02 utc | 284
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jul 2 2023 3:33 utc | 258
Yes, he’s always seemed a sane voice.
He has an article (“The Wagner Mutiny”)in the latest Postil. It’s a fairly prosaic take and reasonable, it seems to me, except perhaps that it doesn’t account for Prighozen’s open peddling of western talking points about the origins of the Ukraine crisis in the days leading up to the drama.
https://www.thepostil.com/the-wagner-mutiny/
Posted by: Ingolf Eide | Jul 2 2023 6:25 utc | 285
Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 21:59 utc | 162
I wonder if the Star Trek plot device you mention took its cue from Imperial Japan and other WW2 militaries? I don’t know much about other countries, but extensive Japanese use of amphetamines during its war in China, SE Asia and the Pacific had long-lasting effects on post-war Japanese society.
THE WORLD WAR II “WONDER DRUG” THAT NEVER LEFT JAPAN
For Workers and Soldiers, Taking Methamphetamine Was a Patriotic Duty That Hooked a Generation
Posted by: tawharanui | Jul 2 2023 6:32 utc | 286
If the intent was to restrict information access, it’s worked.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 1 2023 23:15 utc | 191
It’s a temporary capacity problem. Twitter is being crawled and scraped by datamining bots belonging to AI startups wanting content.
Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 2 2023 7:03 utc | 287
Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 1 2023 22:04 utc | 166
Air mobile assault is incredibly risky. Plus you really dont want a river at your back.
It is risky. However, 1) Russian Airborne troops, last I checked, number around 70k; 2) Russian Airborne are heavy troops (armor and artillery), not the light infantry vis USA airborne; 3) Russian armor are organically amphibious, so they could ford the river without need of bridges, meaning that they could reinforce the forward battle edge won by the airborne assualt; 4) Russia has the heavy airlift and air superiority to supply the forward line with air drops until pontoon bridges are dropped over the river (a day or so?) for supplies to cross en masse, and bring up more artillery; 5) Russia could support the drop and strike all day long with strategic air and missile strikes, and tactical support. It is a viable idea, and Russia certainly has the capability.
The question becomes one of why haven’t they done so? My guesses (and they ARE guesses: 1) Russia announced recently that the counter attach potential of the Ukrainian forces has not been exhausted yet; 2) It could be costly in terms of casaulties, and Russia is looking to limit those; 3) Russia is on the strategic defensive, and waiting for Nato to make it’s move; 4) tying in with point 3, Russia is waiting for NATO to make it’s move and openly become part of the conflict, at which point, a Russian counter move will break like a thunder clap, and roll over Ukraine, through Poland and Romania, and ride right up to the Elbe; take out the NATO airbases throughout Europe, destroy its military potential, and present the USA with a fait accompli. Don’t forget, Russia reconstituted the Gaurds Tank Army a few years ago (or the 1st Gaurds Tank Division – don’t recall which), and Ryabkov stated “Move! Or we will move you!” That’s my take on why Russia is holding back.
Posted by: Scuppers | Jul 2 2023 7:13 utc | 288
@ GT Stroller | Jul 2 2023 7:03 utc | 295
—
Musk didn’t pay Google for Twitter’s hosting and they cut him off.
The same will happen to Ukraine conflict when the stealth quantitative easing stops.
Posted by: too scents | Jul 2 2023 7:15 utc | 289
@Exile was not denigrating knowledge of history per se, but just pointing out the amount of tangential historical substance clogging up these threads.
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jul 2 2023 5:00 utc | 281
Indeed, thank you
Posted by: Exile | Jul 2 2023 7:19 utc | 290
And you can bet that the PLA will be far more informed regarding Russia than you or anyone else here at the bar. Some here make endless conjectures and predictions others make “excuses” as you call it, they might call it counter conjecture though.
What’s the the difference?
Posted by: K | Jul 1 2023 22:24 utc | 175
Your own position would be less ridiculous if it weren’t for the loss of Kakhovka HPP, which I already introduced into the discussion precisely to furnish a handrail to persons such as yourself, who might otherwise fall into the abyss between what careerists claim they can do and what they can actually do.
Anyone making excuses for the current MoD leadership is a fool or worse. There are massive gaps in the awareness and coverage of the responsibilities that are the only reasons for them being employed at all.
But, hey, there’s more to having Kakhovka NPP and ZNPP on the front line than insufficiently informed conjectures like me can know and, therefore, it’s not like we can get any readout from the loss of Kakhovka HPP.
Right?
Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 2 2023 7:29 utc | 291
A free 🍺for whoever posted the Postil link:
The Wagner Mutiny/ Jacques Baud.
100% cleaner analysis than that of “ex”-CIA, Larry Johnson.
While at Postil, i found this:
1993: The Barry R. Posen Plan for War on Russia via Zombie State Ukraine / Mendelssohn Moses
An obligatory read.
Extracts:
> Its author, Barry R. Posen (Rand, CFR, MIT, Woodrow Wilson Foundation), belongs to the leather-armchair school of strategy the US so excels in: arranging for others to die for the US living standard.
> Paragraph Headers !
Manoeuvring the Ukraine into Demanding the US Armed Forces Intervene
Partnership for Peace Designed to “impose considerable costs on Russia”
If the Russian Government Reject further Western “Reforms,” NATO Must Act
Confrontation with Russia “Probable” and She can be Provoked into the Ukraine
The Ukraine Must be Shifted towards “Ethnic Nationalism”
“Diplomacy Profits from Ghastly Television Footage”—Bucha, Anyone?
Give the Ukraine “Many More Opportunities to Inflict Disproportionate Casualties on the Russians”
Move NATO Ground and Air Forces into Poland
The West will Need to Repudiate its High Minded Principles Publicly in a Series of Venues, All Ostensibly Designed for the very Purpose of Protecting these Principles
The Ukrainian Defence will be a “Catastrophic Failure” and the Army, Destroyed
A Divided Ukraine Would then Assume the Role in a New Cold War that Divided Germany Assumed in the Last One
Encourage the Ukrainians to Blow Up their Own Cities and Infrastructure
The Ukraine Must “Convince its Neighbours that It has a Million Men Willing to Die”
The Ukraine Must Learn to Love Poland, and Become A Dumping-Ground for Old Weapons
“Inherent Irrationality” of a “Violent Struggle of the Magnitude Envisioned Here” No Obstacle!
And if all else Fail, Nuke ’em
The chapter that most piqued my interest was:
Encourage the Ukrainians to Blow Up their Own Cities and Infrastructure
Extensive demolitions would supplement more conventional military operations to slow the attackers’ progress, and complicate their subsequent logistics.
Much of this could be organized well in advance; critical facilities can be “pre-chambered” to speed the placement of explosives.
Necessary explosives can be cached close to the designated targets, under the control of local police forces or reserve military formations, as is done in Switzerland, Finland, Sweden, and even Germany.
As the Ukrainians retreat into geographical areas where Ukrainians constitute a greater ethnic majority, it may prove possible to organize “stay-behind” forces to collect intelligence on the Russians and engage in partisan warfare. This too should be planned in advance.
! Kakhovka dam!
It was damaged by missiles. But then it “just collapsed”
Under the 1993 plan, explosives would be prepositioned within the dam. Even if the explosives were not in place from 1993, they certainly could have been installed after Feb 2022 and before the Russians took control of the eastern side.
Highly recommend this read for barflies.
Barfleas would benefit. But of course won’t read.
https://www.thepostil.com/1993-the-barry-r-posen-plan-for-war-on-russia-via-zombie-state-ukraine/
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 2 2023 7:44 utc | 292
Posted by: tawharanui | Jul 2 2023 6:32 utc | 294
Indirectly, as I think they were trying to impart something akin to the cyberpunk vibe that was at that time becoming very popular among a big chunk of the viewers they were hoping to appeal to, and cyberpunk has a history of being known for borrowing from Japanese culture. “Burning Chrome”, bright neon lights, and of course the speed that fueled the all night game play of Tokyo’s pinball parlors, with their bright hypnotic and addicting colors.
P.S. Trivia: The current very popular video game Cyberpunk 2077 is open about drawing influence from the writer Walter Jon Williams SF novel Hardwired, and he says that novel was influenced by Roger Zelazny’s Damnation Alley. It’s protagonist is Hell Tanner, a Hell’s Angel, and his hell ride through an apocalypse blasted landscape is depicted in an amphetamine like style.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damnation_Alley
If you read the opening to Hardwired you’ll likely get the impression the protagonist was fueled by speed. Interestingly enough, he’s the owner/operator of a futuristic tank, a panzer boy, who makes his living delivering high tech illicit cargo. He used to be a shuttle pilot, but then there was a war ….
Amazon lets you read the opening chapter. I bought the paperback when it came out, and I became a fan of the author. I recommend his Voice of the Whirlwind, which is set further in the future, but shares the same universe. And his Aristoi novel, and its sequel, are brilliant depictions of humanity as a post-cyberpunk space faring species, one in which a select few have harnessed something akin to the near god like powers we saw in Zelazny’s Isle of the Dead.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hardwired_(novel)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isle_of_the_Dead_%28Zelazny_novel%29
https://www.amazon.com/Hardwired-Walter-Jon-Williams/dp/1597800627?asin=1597800627&revisionId=&format=4&depth=1
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 2 2023 7:50 utc | 293
Posted by: UWDude | Jul 1 2023 22:39 utc | 181
I specifically said drone surveillance, remote fire support, no troops. 90% of what your argument misinterprets what I clearly said. I actually made a point of emphasising no troops.
Everyone here, and I mean literally everyone, knows that Bakhmut took so long because then whole point was to slowly destroy UA men & matériel in an area that UA themselves had designated as a strongpoint. Proceed too quickly and UA planners would lose the delusion that they could win something and thus withdraw somewhat intact. RF could have blasted the place down to rubble in a week if that was deemed appropriate.
Creating a buffer zone would only be about denying enemy force buildup, especially heavy equipment and landing force gear that would support an actual invasion of the ZNPP plant.
You’ve mixed a whole lot of misapprehension and non sequiturs together and concluded that I don’t have a worthwhile insight into what RF could have economically achieved with its known capabilities, while yours is the insubstantial argument, lacking insight into the underlying forces and capabilities.
To be clear, are you claiming that RF couldn’t realistically clear and maintain a buffer zone on the UA side of the river from ZNPP, ordering a civilian evacuation and then policing the area drone surveillance backed up by artillery, rocket artillery, kamikaze drones, Gerans, remote mine laying etc, all things we know they could do with relative ease?
Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 2 2023 7:52 utc | 294
The Ukraine war is having a “corrosive” effect on Vladimir Putin’s leadership of Russia, says who? CIA Director William J Burns.
Only he forgot to say, that as an US American, he has no idea what is Russia and the Russians… 🙂
Posted by: ostro | Jul 2 2023 8:02 utc | 295
21,000 Wagner mercenaries killed in Ukraine, says who? Zelensky, the drugged guy…
Sure that drugged fellow and the dead-man-walking in Washington has dreams…
Posted by: ostro | Jul 2 2023 8:05 utc | 296
Listening to Ray McGovern’s interview with Robert Scheer from this past week…
Painful. Listening to two old guys who are barely able to continue to be lucid… McGovern is the better at that.
But he keeps dragging up Iraq and Vietnam stories and all of that instead of simply telling Scheer that everything he’s reading about is an example of a CIA information operation. He tries, but it’s not effective. Scheer finally demands that he stop talking about Iraq and Vietnam and answer whether Ukraine is winning or not. McGovern finally does tell Scheer that the Western media gets all their information directly from Ukraine. But he doesn’t mention the ISW or Nuland or anything or the history of everything. Scheer simply doesn’t comprehend what’s going on because all his information comes directly from the mainstream media.
Scheer needs to retire. McGovern needs to stop with the “cutesy grandpa” approach and and deal straight.
Finally McGovern refers to the military balance! He should have led with that. As I’ve said repeatedly, anyone who understands the military balance between Russia and Ukraine and further to NATO immediately understands that it’s a physical impossibility for Ukraine – with or without NATO support – to win the conflict.
Scheer responds to this with the claim that in the modern day we can’t be deceived to this degree any more – an incredible claim from someone who claims he understands that governments lie. McGovern tells him the media is corrupt. Scheer responds with the Ukrainian claims about withholding their weapons, etc. and the “offensive” is just a “probe”, blah, blah. Hopeless. He simply can’t comprehend.
Then they switch to China at which point I dumped it. An hour and 15 minutes of crap.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 8:07 utc | 297
And, for the ‘western’ MSM, the France burning is still the secondary news… Its hard accept that a NATO/G7 country has a civil war going on within, I suppose.
Posted by: ostro | Jul 2 2023 8:08 utc | 298
A river is a natural barrier. Sun Tzu says, any idiot can see that.
Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 1 2023 23:58 utc | 201
It was a barrier of immeasurably greater value in ye olden days of yore when there were no drones, missiles, artillery etc, that could project force across any river in a near instant.
The river does not prevent fire attacks on ZNPP, it does not prevent force buildup in the vicinity of the river bank across from ZNPP. You cannot claim to be ignorant of these essential qualitative features of the military buildup by UA forces in preparation for an attack in the plant.
Bringing a deep buffer zone under fire control on the opposite bank from ZNPP is both militarily and economically sound …. at what point does it cease to be economical to implement defensive measures for your giant nuclear power complex?
At least you are wise enough to attempt only fatuous point scoring, steering well clear of a discussion of the military-technical considerations that would apply to enforcing a fire control buffer zone.
Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 2 2023 8:13 utc | 299
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jul 2 2023 7:50 utc | 301
Hardwired was pretty good.
Available free here:
https://annas-archive.org/md5/44db9e7d9078a5c69e7d613fa68b2ce8
Voice of the Whirlwind 🔍
https://annas-archive.org/md5/b881d497e971dc041c4ed03899c7eb94
Put his name in the search bar, there’s a ton more from him available.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 2 2023 8:13 utc | 300