Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
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July 1, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-155
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict. The current open thread for other issues here. Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Comments
i am getting this message on all the twitter links people have provided today – Posted by: Mary | Jul 1 2023 20:20 utc | 101 @ Paul Greenwood | Jul 1 2023 19:44 utc | 80 and @ Cynic | Jul 1 2023 19:50 utc | 86 Posted by: james | Jul 1 2023 20:22 utc | 102 and @ karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 18:35 utc | 48 Posted by: james | Jul 1 2023 20:24 utc | 103 It’s going to require a big bang to penetrate the znpp core buildings. I doubt himars or stormshadow would cut it. Nuclear power plants are designed to withstand extreme events. So a successful false flag would be very difficult to achieve, and which nation wants to be shown in the world community as the instigator. Posted by: Oh | Jul 1 2023 20:24 utc | 104 Zet @ #47: What is a PUSH POLL?
Here’s the summary: https://ratinggroup.ua/en/research/ukraine/ukraine_s_resilience_formula_the_essential_components_during_war_and_post-war_6_11_june_2023.html Posted by: Zet | Jul 1 2023 20:26 utc | 105 @Posted by: gT | Jul 1 2023 19:42 utc | 76
Then the people of Russia should feel incredible gratitude to the Jews, as communist rapid industrialization was the only thing that saved them from the same fate as the Amerindians in North America. Russia west of the Ural Mountains would have become the second lebensraum for the Germanic tribes (who populated Britain as the Anglo-Saxons), North America was the first. @ james | Jul 1 2023 20:22 utc | 104 Posted by: whirlX | Jul 1 2023 20:28 utc | 107 Posted by: Oh | Jul 1 2023 20:24 utc | 106 Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 1 2023 20:28 utc | 108 contrary to all the talk early in this smo, russia is not going to run out of missiles is now being reported from a usa think tank… i find this funny given all the earlier talk of ‘russia is running out of missiles’.. Posted by: james | Jul 1 2023 20:30 utc | 109 I don’t understand why a zone of conflict has been permitted
Last night RF sent an Iksander over head into the Antonov Bridge. Case closed. Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 1 2023 20:31 utc | 110 @ whirlX | Jul 1 2023 20:28 utc | 110 Posted by: james | Jul 1 2023 20:31 utc | 111 Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 20:19 utc | 100 Posted by: ostro | Jul 1 2023 20:32 utc | 112 He’s in a tricky position as an American academic and almost the only one opposing US imperialism’s war on Russia. Speaking truth in the US and not getting destroyed is an art. Posted by: Mary | Jul 1 2023 20:37 utc | 113 Only one reactor at ZNPP is not in cold shutdown, the one is in hot shutdown to produce enough energy to power the plant. Because the Ukrainians keep shelling the high voltage grid feed into the facility. So I’m not sure how shelling it, even with a missile barrage, or planting explosives would get it to go Chernobyl. And that’s what all the talk seems to suggest: that a reactor will melt down and explode. Posted by: Lex | Jul 1 2023 20:38 utc | 114 Posted by: pyrrhus | Jul 1 2023 17:52 utc | 34 Posted by: badjoke | Jul 1 2023 20:48 utc | 115 A bit more scientific, imo. Posted by: Passerby | Jul 1 2023 20:49 utc | 116 james no. 104 Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 1 2023 20:49 utc | 117 karlof1 @ 100 Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 1 2023 20:49 utc | 118 Posted by: Mary | Jul 1 2023 20:37 utc | 116 Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2023 20:51 utc | 119 Can historical parallels with the financing of conflict by London’s Bankers be found in the current conflict in Ukraine? Are the same players on the stage perhaps ? Posted by: Mary | Jul 1 2023 20:52 utc | 120 He also pointed to a position taken in 2008 at some NATO conference as a major contributor to the war, and blamed the US in 2021 for ramping up the pressure on Russia by explicitly refusing to rule out Ukraine admission to NATO, and by integrating the military structures betwseen Ukraine and NATO which effectively made it a member. Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2023 20:54 utc | 121 My read on Mearsheimer is that he thinks our war on Russia is a mistake because China is our true geo-strategic enemy, which doesn’t make him pro peace, anti-war, or particularity enlightened in my book. He’s better than a brick in the face but he’s not fighting for a better world, just a better hegenomic strategy. In these dangerous times, like RFK Jr., you take what you can get, but I would reserve plaudits. Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 1 2023 20:57 utc | 122 Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 1 2023 19:49 utc | 85 Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 20:59 utc | 123 “isQ” s/b “ISW” I just got up, I can’t even see what I’m doing. 🙂 Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 21:02 utc | 124 On the ZNPP–The recent photos supplied by Simplicius still show a river channel running though a parched bottomland, whose baked-bricks appearing dirt still remains very soft and impassable to most vehicles unless they have very light ground pressure. As such, any attempt at a direct assault on the plant remains suicidal. Unless Ukie artillery can suppress all the HMGs posted in the defensive network and the Russian artillery deployed behind it AND have enough AD to clear the overhead skies, there’s absolutely zero chance of gaining the opposite bank from the Ukie side. The feared TOR-1 heavy flamethrower firing directly into that zone as infantry attempted to advance through the mines amidst the hail of bullets and shells isn’t at all what I’d agree to do as a Ukie. That not even probing patrols are undertaken is a message in itself. Richard Steven Hack @ 126
I’ll accept that. Pretty positive Lukashenko himself said Wagner will be training Belarus forces, so, in Belarus they are but confirmed only as advisers. Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 1 2023 21:03 utc | 127 Interesting story on one of America’s most conservative news channels. Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Jul 1 2023 21:05 utc | 128 @Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 1 2023 19:44 utc | 78 Posted by: Reee | Jul 1 2023 21:06 utc | 129 Posted by: Exile | Jul 1 2023 18:54 utc | 54 Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 1 2023 21:07 utc | 130 Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 1 2023 20:57 utc | 125 Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2023 21:07 utc | 131 Posted by: unimperator | Jul 1 2023 19:21 utc | 62 Posted by: badjoke | Jul 1 2023 21:08 utc | 132 My read on Mearsheimer is that he thinks our war on Russia is a mistake because China is our true geo-strategic enemy, Posted by: Passerby | Jul 1 2023 21:08 utc | 133 @ ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 1 2023 20:49 utc | 120 Posted by: james | Jul 1 2023 21:10 utc | 134 LightYearsFromHome | Jul 1 2023 20:49 utc | 121– Passerby @ 136
In WW3 China plays the industrial powerhouse and military roll the USA played in WW2. Russia provided the manpower and the lives to win WW2 the USA everything else. China last I looked isn’t lacking in manpower either. So, yes, bad idea to make Russia and China allies. Even worse idea is holding on to gangster capitalism and hegemony. None of this has to be this way. Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 1 2023 21:22 utc | 136 james no. 137 Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 1 2023 21:23 utc | 137 Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 21:19 utc | 139 Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2023 21:26 utc | 138 We are nearly 1-1/2 years into the SMO. Present assessment is such that Russia has achieved most of the objectives it set out to do: Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jul 1 2023 21:26 utc | 140 @Posted by: Lex | Jul 1 2023 20:38 utc | 117 Posted by: Reee | Jul 1 2023 21:27 utc | 141 Crooke weighs in on Prigozhin’s revolt in his al-Mayadeen column, “The Prigozhin Convoy: ‘Everything Changes; Everything Remains the Same’”, with the following being the meat:
Prior to the above, Crooke cites this The Grayzone, “The real casualties of Russia’s ‘civil war’: the Beltway expert class”, which were quite possibly the target of this event all along–to lead the chattering class off the cliff into mid-air like Wile Coyote and enjoy watching as they plummet to the canyon bottom far below. The few that watched the BigLie Media performance will now be fewer. @karlof1 #14 Posted by: Richard L | Jul 1 2023 21:35 utc | 143 Posted by: Oh | Jul 1 2023 20:24 utc | 106 Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 1 2023 21:35 utc | 144 Posted by: Mary | Jul 1 2023 20:37 utc | 116 Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 1 2023 21:36 utc | 145 “..The European Welfare State was propped up on 2 pillars. Posted by: bevin | Jul 1 2023 21:37 utc | 146 pretzelattack | Jul 1 2023 21:26 utc | 142– Posted by: Passerby | Jul 1 2023 20:49 utc | Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 1 2023 21:43 utc | 148 Posted by: bevin | Jul 1 2023 21:37 utc | 150 Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2023 21:48 utc | 149 LightYearsAtHome @125 Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jul 1 2023 21:48 utc | 150 Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 21:03 utc | 128 Posted by: badjoke | Jul 1 2023 21:49 utc | 151 Unfortunately; as an American, I resemble that remark. President Trump was the only President who refused to initiate a new foreign war without a declaration of war from Congress as our Constitution requires. For that grievous offense, he was impeached. Posted by: Gengar | Jul 1 2023 21:49 utc | 152 @ ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 1 2023 21:23 utc | 141 Posted by: james | Jul 1 2023 21:51 utc | 153 It’s sad that their talking points are so quickly repeated here. Posted by: Gengar | Jul 1 2023 21:51 utc | 154 Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 1 Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 1 2023 21:53 utc | 155 @ Paul Damascene | Jul 1 2023 21:48 utc | 154 Posted by: james | Jul 1 2023 21:54 utc | 156 “But of course Jewish Bolshevism is just an antisemitic conspiracy theory.” Posted by: bevin | Jul 1 2023 21:57 utc | 157 Richard L | Jul 1 2023 21:35 utc | 147– Posted by: Passerby | Jul 1 2023 20:49 utc | 119 Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 21:59 utc | 159 Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jul 1 2023 21:48 utc | 154 Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2023 22:01 utc | 160 JustAMaverick @ 59 Posted by: young | Jul 1 2023 22:04 utc | 161 … I continue to argue for Russia to expand the perimeter to well beyond the river on the opposite side which they can do without undertaking a direct assault across the river by conducting an airmobile operation. Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 1 2023 22:04 utc | 162 Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 21:33 utc | Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 1 2023 22:06 utc | 163 Posted by: Crazy chump | Jul 1 2023 15:44 utc | 1 Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 1 2023 22:10 utc | 164 badjoke | Jul 1 2023 21:49 utc | 155– Ukrainian polls on support for everlasting war are garbage. Posted by: CitizenSmith | Jul 1 2023 22:15 utc | 166 Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jul 1 2023 21:48 utc | 154 Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 1 2023 22:16 utc | 167 Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 21:33 utc | 146
It is not yet established that Prigozhin will be “building a Wagner off-shoot”. Lukashenko has indeed asked Wagner to train his troops, and there is allegedly evidence that planes belonging to the MoD and used by Wagner are delivering either personnel or materiel to Belarus. So all we know for now is that a small number of Wagner will be used to train Belarus’ army. This is in line with the Russian desire to integrate the Belarus military with the Russian army, so it makes sense that Wagner would be permitted to do that by Russia.
Again, the same logical error committed by everyone who thinks the CIA was behind it. He misrepresents Putin’s remark which was about how the West RESPONDED to the stunt with the idea the West PLANNED the stunt. There remains absolutely zero evidence of that. You’d think Crooke would be a little more conversant with logical reasoning.
So they’re investigating something they’ve already decided is true. I doubt that. Note also the vague term “inspired”. Either the West concocted the plan or they didn’t – “inspiration” is bullshit. Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 22:21 utc | 168 Paul Damascene@ 154 / james @ 160
+ 1 Great take down of Mearshimer, too bad you can’t debate him, the eminent professor would be in trouble. Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 1 2023 22:21 utc | 169 Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 21:59 utc | 163 Posted by: Tim2 | Jul 1 2023 22:21 utc | 170 I am also asking the bar to refrain from making excuses, as you can bet that there are multiple entire departments of analysts within China’s People’s Liberation Army who are watching and dissecting every move in the Ukraine conflict, you can also be that they aren’t making any excuses. Posted by: K | Jul 1 2023 22:24 utc | 171 By the way, as to Twitter… Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 22:27 utc | 172 Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jul 1 2023 21:48 utc | 154 Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 1 2023 22:28 utc | 173 Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 1 2023 22:11 utc | 169 Posted by: badjoke | Jul 1 2023 22:31 utc | 174 English Outsider | Jul 1 2023 17:43 utc | 27 Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 1 2023 22:33 utc | 175 hat tip to karlof1 for comparing the West to Wile E. Coyote. apt. Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2023 22:36 utc | 176 Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 1 2023 22:04 utc | 166 Posted by: UWDude | Jul 1 2023 22:39 utc | 177 RSH’s description of Musk as a “moron” is accurate enough; I’m more inclined to think of him as a petulant, obstreperous child, but our views are hardly mutually exclusive. Posted by: malenkov | Jul 1 2023 22:48 utc | 178 Posted by: malenkov | Jul 1 2023 22:48 utc | 182 Posted by: badjoke | Jul 1 2023 22:53 utc | 179 Put an other way, are these chickens coming home to roost or chickens cooked up on order, a French Gladio in the works? Posted by: K | Jul 1 2023 22:55 utc | 180 “..The European Welfare State was propped up on 2 pillars. Posted by: kupkee | Jul 1 2023 22:59 utc | 181 badjoke: I can’t imagine how else Musk could’ve gotten into Stanford! With his Backpfeifengesicht he certainly couldn’t have Lewinsky’d his way into Stanford. Posted by: malenkov | Jul 1 2023 23:02 utc | 182 Has anyone booked a vacation 8n France? Looks lovely this time of year. Posted by: alek_a | Jul 1 2023 23:02 utc | 183 As for Twitter, Had a Chrome extension called “Breakthrough Twitter Login Wall” which by-passed the login prompt and went directly to posting. But now the extension no longer works. I click on a twitter link and go to Twitter login dialog. Hopefully someone will come along with another extension to avoid that login prompt. Posted by: Erelis | Jul 1 2023 23:10 utc | 184
Posted by: Simon | Jul 1 2023 23:12 utc | 185 I just read Simplicius latest article…I call bullshit on most of it…It’s not that his facts are wrong – when he’s printing facts and not the latest Twitter rumor – but that his interpretations are all over the place.
Complete bullshit. “Hundreds of tents” means probably no more than 2,000 troops, which is probably the lot that followed Prigozhin into Russia and could serve as trainers for the Belarus army. Or the entire report could be complete bullshit. Give me a legitimate – I stress LEGITIMATE – Russian source that confirms this. Lukashenko already said they could have an abandoned base, after previously denying the bullshit reports – which continue to be quoted today – about Belarus building bases.
So 500-750,000 troops aren’t enough for a “blitzkrieg attack”? Again ignoring what happens when Ukraine runs out of ammo? Can’t these people link two thoughts together to make a conclusion? And what does “150K newly mobilized troops” mean? What happened to the 370,000 they mobilized in the fall? This is bullshit. Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 23:14 utc | 186 sln2002 | Jul 1 2023 20:11 utc | 94 Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 1 2023 23:15 utc | 187 Posted by: kupkee | Jul 1 2023 22:59 utc | 185 Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 1 2023 23:17 utc | 188 @ UWDude | Jul 1 2023 22:39 utc | 181 Posted by: whirlX | Jul 1 2023 23:22 utc | 189 TASS tells us: “CIA Director William Burns called Director of Russia’s Foreign Intelligence Service (SVR) Sergey Naryshkin this week to tell him that the US had nothing to do with the mutiny attempt by the Wagner Private Military Company (PMC), The Wall Street Journal said on Friday citing its sources.” Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jul 1 2023 23:14 utc | 190 Posted by: UWDude | Jul 1 2023 23:33 utc | 191 Figure that Musk is trying to force people to become members of Twitter to read any posting. Posted by: dh | Jul 1 2023 23:37 utc | 192 It is going to be a long hot summer for Europe and the United States as the politicians display their gross incompetence and criminal activities!! Donald Trump is going to harp of the Biden Crime Family 24/7!! Our federal government is a disaster that can not be swept under the rug forever!! Posted by: cousin lucky | Jul 1 2023 23:37 utc | 193 H@ck 190 / I’m unimpressed again with this article. Posted by: Sad Sad Simp | Jul 1 2023 23:40 utc | 194 Posted by: kupkee | Jul 1 2023 22:59 utc | 185 Posted by: kupkee | Jul 1 2023 23:41 utc | 195 Posted by: whirlX | Jul 1 2023 23:22 utc | 193 Posted by: UWDude | Jul 1 2023 23:44 utc | 196 Posted by: anon2020 | Jul 1 2023 21:35 utc | 148 Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 1 2023 23:58 utc | 197 Posted by: sln2002 | Jul 1 2023 23:58 utc | 201 Posted by: UWDude | Jul 2 2023 0:04 utc | 198
Why don’t you shut the fuck up if the only things you’ve got to say on the matter are insults and logical fallacies. Posted by: Mushroom | Jul 2 2023 0:08 utc | 199 @sln2002 Posted by: Boris Badenov | Jul 2 2023 0:08 utc | 200 |
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