Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 07, 2023

Ukraine - Biden Again Escalates

The Washington Post says that the U.S. will now give cluster munition to Ukraine.

Biden approves cluster munition supply to Ukraine

President Biden has approved the provision of U.S. cluster munitions for Ukraine, with drawdown of the weapons from Defense Department stocks due to be announced Friday.

The munition will be 155mm grenades, Dual Purpose Improved Conventional Munitions (DPICM), that can be fired by 'western' provided artillery.


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The decision, likely illegal, was made because the U.S. and its allies have run out of other 155mm munitions:

The move, which will bypass U.S. law prohibiting the production, use or transfer of cluster munitions with a failure rate of more than 1 percent, comes amid concerns about Kyiv’s lagging counteroffensive against entrenched Russian troops and dwindling Western stocks of conventional artillery.

It is accompanied by false statements that Russia has used such ammunition in Ukraine:

It follows months of internal administration debate over whether to supply the controversial munitions, which are banned by most countries in the world.

Cluster weapons explode in the air over a target, releasing dozens to hundreds of smaller submunitions across a wide area.

More than 120 countries have joined a convention banning their use as inhumane and indiscriminate, in large part because of high failure rates that litter the landscape with unexploded submunitions that endanger both friendly troops and civilians, often for decades after the end of a conflict. The United States, Ukraine and Russia — which is alleged to have used them extensively in Ukraine — are not parties to the convention. Eight of NATO’s 31 members, including the United States, have not ratified the convention.

It is well documented, by Human Rights Watch and others, that the Ukrainian military has used cluster munitions. There is nothing to support a claim that Russia has done so. The Pentagon has rejected claimed evidence of Russian cluster munition attacks:

Commenting on videos depicting alleged Russian cluster munition use, DOD officials stated during a March 1, 2022 press conference that “we’ve seen the same video that you have but we have not assessed that it is definitive with respect to the use of cluster munitions. So we are not in a position to confirm the use of cluster munitions at this time.” In a similar manner, a DOD official stated during March 3, 2022, press conference that DOD was still unable to confirm Russia’s use of cluster munitions.

Cluster munition are banned by most countries because they often fails to explode on impact and thereby leave a lot of unexploded mines on the ground:

The principal weapon under consideration, an M864 artillery shell first produced in 1987, is fired from the 155mm howitzers the United States and other Western countries have provided Ukraine. In its last publicly available estimate, more than 20 years ago, the Pentagon assessed that artillery shell to have a “dud” rate of 6 percent, meaning that at least four of each of the 72 submunitions each shell carries would remain unexploded across an area of approximately 22,500 square meters — roughly the size of 4½ football fields.

Last year the Congressional Research Service found that the real dud rate is higher than what the Pentagon claims:

There appear to be significant discrepancies among failure rate estimates. Some manufacturers claim a submunition failure rate of 2% to 5%, whereas mine clearance specialists have frequently reported failure rates of 10% to 30%. A number of factors influence submunition reliability. These include delivery technique, age of the submunition, air temperature, landing in soft or muddy ground, getting caught in trees and vegetation, and submunitions being damaged after dispersal, or landing in such a manner that their impact fuzes fail to initiate.

The Pentagon claims that the ammunition it will provide has a lower dud rate. But it never produced data from tests that would support its claims.

By agreeing to provide the munition Biden is circumventing or breaking the law:

There is no waiver provision in the 1 percent limit Congress has placed on cluster munition dud rates, written into Defense Department appropriations for the last seven years. Biden would bypass it and Congress, according to a White House official, drawing down the munitions from existing defense stocks under a rarely used provision of the Foreign Assistance Act, which allows the president to provide aid, regardless of appropriations or arms export restrictions, as long as he determines that it is in the vital U.S. national security interest.

Unfortunately neither Congress nor the courts are likely to intervene.

The cluster ammunition, like the Uranium tank ammunition the U.S. and Britain have sent to Ukraine, will make large parts of the country inhabitable and unusable for agricultural purposes. It will also make attacks and retreats through affected areas difficult for military forces on both sides.

Cluster ammunition was made during the cold war for defending against large scale armored attacks. They are imprecise area attack weapons. Their usefulness against the small unit attacks with a handful of tanks which we have often seen during this war is doubtful.

As the U.S. has run out of other ammunition what will it provide to Ukraine after the DPICM fail to turn around the fate of the Ukrainian army?

Chemical weapons? Nukes?

Posted by b on July 7, 2023 at 14:02 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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a most unfortunate development, but in line with the continuation of the usa-uk- nato hostilities and lack of respect for russia and ukraine here... thanks b for highlighting this.. nato and friends have no off ramp and are not interested in finding an end to this..

Posted by: james | Jul 7 2023 14:10 utc | 1

Proof positive of age related dementia. Nod is a danger to the US and the world.

Posted by: Jeff Harrison | Jul 7 2023 14:13 utc | 2

After watching the history of US involvement in Ukraine (as well as US history overall), I know with certainty there is no depth of evil they are not capable of. So few Americans understand this reality.

Posted by: mtw | Jul 7 2023 14:14 utc | 3

Can Biden and the neo-nazis ever do anything that has not been second guessed by the bar regulars? Doubt it.

Posted by: Merkin Scot | Jul 7 2023 14:17 utc | 4

Jeff Harrison | Jul 7 2023 14:13 utc | 2

Jeff, Joe Biden has always been a corrupt and vile warmonger completely devoid of ethics or morals. He built his entire career bragging about it. If he was not demented it would make zero difference to how this conflict is being conducted in Washington.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jul 7 2023 14:18 utc | 5

Washington is supplying these munitions because they have nothing else to give. It is an act of desperation and impenetrable denial.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jul 7 2023 14:23 utc | 6

Do Americans not realize that Russia has stocks of cluster munitions not only in artillery shells but missiles of every class as well as aerial bombs if they choose to use them? It's the Ukrainians who should be refusing these shells ... they're the ones who will suffer the most if Russia matches this escalation.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Jul 7 2023 14:23 utc | 7

What next? Agent Orange? Millions of gallons were sprayed by the us, the dioxin remains to this day.

Posted by: Oh | Jul 7 2023 14:26 utc | 8

Thanks b. for your sane quick reaction to those issues.

What is troubling there is that cluster bomblets are certainly going to be used on civilians. That will, indeed, make angrier RF a bit more than anything else did so far.
No country likes when killing of its citizens is encouraged with unreliable mass casualties intent weaponry.
What I understand such unexploded ordinance percentage is around 5%-10% after 5 years of storage and only growing longer is stored.

From a tactical point it is pretty devastating system if used properly, but so far there is no proof that Ukraine is able to pull any strategic victory out of this or any other magical cure tried by NATO, to ease their "drang nach Krim".

However, it would be justified to prevent delivery of those to Ukraine, by any means and anywhere. The World would understand and UN couldn't deny.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 7 2023 14:38 utc | 9

We are at the "burn the country in order to save it" stage of the war.

Posted by: Bob | Jul 7 2023 14:41 utc | 10

A "red line" which isn't enforced is more, like, a line. In particular, it seems, Russia plays according to rules under which the Anglo's just cannot be touched, ever. I think the Brits should have been dealt with very, very harshly for their DU supplies; that's what they're for for chrissakes: the Dark Throne puts the Brits out in front so that any ... misunderstandings can be worked out before it comes to a superpower clash. Russia just yawned. More generally, the junta's current nuclear brinkmanship is completely beyond the pale; the time has come to eradicate the lot of them, doing Russia, Ukraine, and the world at large a favor.

If Moscow's true policy is that anything goes, it's indeed better optics to refrain from further idle threats. Maybe there is some "slower is better" masterplan under which things will work out OK for Russia; we shall see.

Posted by: Ma Laoshi | Jul 7 2023 14:41 utc | 11

Evil is as evil does and the hits just keep on coming. The USA is a living breathing biblical war crime and the more the "American People" allow evil in its name, the more the American People are going to pay a biblical price with the total destruction of the USA aka Atlantis 2.0

And when the dust settles, and the gnashing of teeth begins, folks will look around the mountain of smoke and bone and shake their feeble fists at the 'secular humanists' who planned and executed it all.

Posted by: gottlieb | Jul 7 2023 14:42 utc | 12

The only way for Russia to end this mess is to seize entire UA territory. Pinpoint strikes and neverending defence is not enough.

Posted by: smartboy | Jul 7 2023 14:43 utc | 13

It's quite simple.

The Russians have taken the initiative by invading Ukraine.

If the Russians don't want Ukraine to use cluster munitions in the Donbas, in Donetsk & Luhansk then Russia will hurry up this SMO and advance the front lines.

Many here argue there is no urgency for Russia to take territory, but rather this conflict is about gradual attrition.

Clearly, there is a cost to going slow - it means the ground you will eventually take will be saturated in cluster munitions.

I don't understand why Russia thinks it is a good thing to have the Donbas and Donetsk covered in cluster munitions

Why is Russia happy to allow their territory to be covered in cluster munitions - wouldn't it be better to advance the front line and prevent this?

What am I missing about this strategy?

Posted by: Julian | Jul 7 2023 14:49 utc | 15

@ JB | Jul 7 2023 14:45 utc | 14

thanks jb... many of the coalition of the willing, or the puppies following the usa here - have signed onto this treaty.. i wonder how they feel about the thought of their glorius leader - usa - dispensing with cluster munitions at this stage of the war? perhaps now that they see who they are in bed with, it will give them some difficulty sleeping at night.. nothing seems to disturb them though...

Posted by: james | Jul 7 2023 14:53 utc | 16

Patrick Lancaster posted a video of the cluster munitions shot into Donetsk by the Ukranians. He also interviewed a teenage boy whose foot was destroyed by one.

Posted by: Peter VE | Jul 7 2023 14:58 utc | 17

"As the U.S. has run out of other ammunition what will it provide to Ukraine after the DPICM fail to turn around the fate of the Ukrainian army?"

Shovels, of course. Look how successful the Rooskies have been with them...

Posted by: muttman | Jul 7 2023 15:02 utc | 18

@ 15 "What am I missing about this strategy?"
Attacking well fortified defensive positions comes at great costs, as we have seen by now. Russia can't produce miracles but has to approach the situation realisticly.
Politically this is a setback for the empire, as it does not look good to the rest of the world. Especially since latest news are that Russia just retook all lost positions on the eastern flank. The palpable air of desparation is intensifying.

Posted by: fk | Jul 7 2023 15:08 utc | 19

JustAMaverick no. 6

They have nukes.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 7 2023 15:10 utc | 20

What’s the target going to be?

1. Massed armoured formations, where? Or are the West worried about what’s coming down the line?
2. Massed artillery, firing in 6 gun battery lines, where? Or, are the DPICM a tacit admission that HIMAR’s has been ineffective at interdicting artillery supplies.
3. Dug in armour? The Russians will surely just provide these vehicles with top cover
4. Massed infantry, where? Only the Ukrainians are using infantry in large density formations as their primary assault weapon, providing, ironically, the perfect target profile for Russian ICM’s.

How soon before we see Ukrainian comments appear online, complaining how the bomblets are not as effective as they had been promised? A month after deployment, perhaps earlier?

Posted by: Milites | Jul 7 2023 15:13 utc | 21

In the fourth-to-last paragraph of the original post, I suspect the following was meant: "will make large parts of the country uninhabitable."

Posted by: David Levin | Jul 7 2023 15:15 utc | 22

Posted by: JB | Jul 7 2023 14:45 utc | 14

Turkey has been sending Ukraine some number of these things since late 2022.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/01/10/turkey-cold-war-cluster-bombs-ukraine/

Posted by: Ed2 | Jul 7 2023 15:15 utc | 23

Posted by: HB_Norica | Jul 7 2023 14:23 utc | 7

The article b linked at Human Rights Watch says Russia has already been using these things too.

Posted by: Ed2 | Jul 7 2023 15:18 utc | 24

Posted by: james | Jul 7 2023 14:53 utc | 16
"nothing seems to disturb them though..."

No, they stop at nothing. So much has been said and written about that it's hard to add anything.
I'll say - the Western leaders (although not only they) are truly free. They are bound by nothing literally and have never been called to account. They can, and do, whatever they want, domestically and internationally still, although many states are standing up to them now. The struggle is on.
One thing is certain - this war needs to end ASAP, for everybody's sake.

Posted by: JB | Jul 7 2023 15:18 utc | 25

@15 Julian, Ukraine has no way to saturate even the crumple zone with cluster munitions both from a delivery point of view, and from US stocks levels. The front is Big! Most will never make it to the front, of those that do, many will be blown up in assembly points, or along with the few howitzers Ukraine has left, etc. Their only use will be to shower a few select Ukrainian towns and cities to kill urban and suburban civilians, as has been ongoing since 2014.

Well, some will probably end up in Italy and Germany and Spain for the brewing EU civil war as the far right volunteers return from the Ukrainian killing fields to enact bloody change at home.

Posted by: ISL | Jul 7 2023 15:19 utc | 26

Moments like this make me wish I was born in Russia or China.

Posted by: Passerby | Jul 7 2023 15:21 utc | 27

Russia should just sail a big nuke up the Potomac and take out DC, Foggy Bottom and the CIA in one fell swoop. Do us all a favor.

Posted by: Sentient | Jul 7 2023 15:26 utc | 28

C'est assez simple Julien.

Les Kieviens ont pris l'initiative en envahissant le Donbass après un coup d'état soutenu par Washington.

Beaucoup ici soutiennent qu'il n'y a pas d'urgence pour la Russie de prendre du territoire, mais plutôt que ce conflit concerne une attrition progressive et ils ont raison.

De toute évidence, les prisonniers de guerre kieviens seront forcés de déminer les sous-munitions lorsqu'ils auront perdu la guerre... :)

De plus, je ne comprends pas pourquoi Kiev pense que c'est une bonne chose que ses armes à sous-munitions explosent dans ses entrepôts.

Le vainqueur ordonne, le perdant obéit, or c'est la Russie qui sera vainqueur et Kiev qui sera le perdant

Posted by: christophe nicolas | Jul 7 2023 15:32 utc | 29

Posted by: Julian | Jul 7 2023 14:49 utc | 15

Julian, I am with you and I have been saying this for quite some time. I do understand the logic behind the slow roll through Ukraine, and I defended Russia's tactics when the Western hecklers were taunting Russia and accusing it of weakness, claiming that it did not take more territory because it couldn't, etc.

However, there is a point of diminishing returns with every strategy, bar none, and I think Russia has reached that point with the SloMO Operation. There is no reason to tolerate any more of Ukraine's antics. It's time for a decapitation of the Zelensky regime and a full occupation of Ukraine. Anybody involved in the Kieven government should be targeted and the supply routes into Ukraine should be interdicted. Any more trouble after that, and foreign decision making centers get targeted on their own soil.

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 7 2023 15:33 utc | 30

Peter VE | Jul 7 2023 14:58 utc | 17

I have not seen any recent Patrick Lancaster videos, save those from Rostov, yet I believe you’re referring to videos, perhaps from a year ago, of the damage to Donetsk civilians caused by Ukrainian petal mines, the use of which is also criminal.

I look at the USA’s cluster bomb use as another step in the continuum of attempts to draw the RF into a broader war which, thus far, Putin has prudently declined, for the entire world’s benefit. The continuance of the game seems to hinge upon the degree to which the warmongers in Washington can manipulate US public opinion in regard to justifying these steps, which themselves may be just a sideshow.
What the Poles do over the next few weeks is critical, perhaps as critical as was their refusal to return Danzig to the German Reich in 1939, which ultimately cost Britain its Empire. Will the US lose its own as precipitously as did Britain, in response to possible foolish aggression by Poland?

Posted by: Ciaran | Jul 7 2023 15:40 utc | 31

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 7 2023 15:33 utc | 30

There is no need for Russia to occupy Ukraine. The occupation of Ukraine would cost more than the country is worth. Indeed, right now Americans are occupying Ukraine and it has already cost the US $150 billion, and Europe is growing poorer by the day.

Posted by: Passerby | Jul 7 2023 15:47 utc | 32

The fact that us doesn't care about how polluted and dangerous the land becomes is a tacit admission that they fully expect to lose control.... otherwise blackrock would advise Blinky to try to preserve it for their planned agricultural colonization

Posted by: Peter b | Jul 7 2023 15:58 utc | 33

@Peter VE #17:

Patrick Lancaster posted a video of the cluster munitions shot into Donetsk by the Ukranians. He also interviewed a teenage boy whose foot was destroyed by one.

Those were cluster anti-personnel mines PFM-1 Lepestok—cluster munitions specifically designed to explode when stepped on, tearing off people’s feet. PFM-1 is a Soviet copy of U.S.’s BLU-43/44 Dragontooth, which the U.S. invented and used as part of its Operation Igloo White in Vietnam and Laos.

Posted by: S | Jul 7 2023 15:58 utc | 34

However, there is a point of diminishing returns with every strategy, bar none, and I think Russia has reached that point with the SloMO Operation. There is no reason to tolerate any more of Ukraine's antics. It's time for a decapitation of the Zelensky regime and a full occupation of Ukraine. Anybody involved in the Kieven government should be targeted and the supply routes into Ukraine should be interdicted. Any more trouble after that, and foreign decision making centers get targeted on their own soil.

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 7 2023 15:33 utc | 30

Occupying everything is what US actually expects and expected and it was the plan to create "Afghanistan". But the cat can be skinned in several ways, it doesn't necessarily require occupying Kiev, and up to Lvov. Actually, it would probably be even much more costly than SMO which runs at higher efficiency killing the Nato proxy armies in the east. Of course there are unfortunate trade off costs such as potential usage of DU and cluster shells in de-facto Russian territory.

Ukraine is also running low on the experienced officer corps which means Nato is de-enlisting their member's officers and sending them to Ukraine, per recent reports. Ukrainian conscription is now 80 % based on raiding from the street and private houses. That means the contribution of Ukraine itself to this war is decreasing. But of course tens of thousands more Nato troops will extend it. It is not free for Nato, it is a commitment they have to make to send their armies in if they want to keep the war going with less and less actual Ukrainians.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 7 2023 16:02 utc | 35

I don't understand why Russia thinks it is a good thing to have the Donbas and Donetsk covered in cluster munitions

Simply put Russia isn't going to send men into a slaughter against well prepared defences.

In 1941 - 43 infantry took on tanks with satchel charges and anti-tank rifles. Today they take them on with ATGM's that hit tanks from 5km away ... coincidently the curve of the earth limits a tanks guns range to 5 km as well. Tanks are way easier to see than an ATGM team in a trench. helicopters can hit a tank from 12 km.

Ukraine has been digging trenches and pouring concrete for 9 years. The Soviets built bunkers and hidden fortresses throughout the country. Tanks advancing across an open field in Ukraine today is a turkey shoot for either side. You would have to carpet bomb the entire country end to end multiple times to get rid of the trenches say nothing of every town, village, hamlet, factory and mine which hide hidden bunkers

The Gulf war in Iraq by contrast was a battlefield of featureless sand ... no forests, hedgerows, river or towns to hide trenches and strong points. It cost the west over 70 aircraft in the air war to claim air supremacy over Iraq before the tanks could roll. Unlike the Ukrainians the Iraqi's had no fight in them and usually went looking for coalition forces to surrender to.

Russia certainly has the weaponry to take Ukraine in a hurry but it would cost many Russian and civilian lives. lucky for them Ukraine is using a strategy of trying to take ground at any cost which plays into Russia's patient game of attritional warfare.

You realize that Ukraine is half Russian and most Ukrainians have family in Russia ... Ukraine can't keep secrets from Russia. If Ukraine uses cluster munitions on Donetsk civilians expect another NATO or Ukrainian command bunker to go boom.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Jul 7 2023 16:03 utc | 36

The Biden administration will include a bonus. Every 155mm cluster munition will include a free, tenth kilogram package of Hunter Biden's premium, proprietary blend of cocaine.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Jul 7 2023 16:13 utc | 37

If these weapons are used in the Donbass or Crimea, Russia could simply send a few volleys of similar "scorched earth" ordinance toward Lvov, Kiev, or the roads near the border with Poland.

Let some of those western grifters from Blackrock plus a Congressman or two get their feet blown off. I suspect it would put a quick end to the whole affair.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 7 2023 16:13 utc | 38

Posted by: Ed2 | Jul 7 2023 15:18 utc | 24

Could very well be ... I know a Ukrainian BTG was destroyed with Russian cluster bombs in 2015. Whether it was the Russians or Donbas militias who used them is still up for debate.

As far as human rights watch is concerned did they witness this attack or were they shown 'evidence' of the attack by Ukrainians?

I seem to remember the mayor of Kiev trying to convince us he was standing in front of a shot down Kinzhal warhead ... which was a quarter the size of an actual kinzhal warhead and the wrong shape but that didn't stop the pentagon from reporting they shot down the missile as well.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Jul 7 2023 16:13 utc | 39

A dud rate of 6% is horribly inhumane.
Manufacturers should be forced to increase the dud rate to 100%.

Posted by: Mark Mosby | Jul 7 2023 16:17 utc | 40

So how many days will pass before the nuclear weapons are launched??? Our scientists did not know if the very first nuclear bomb would cause a "world wide chain reaction"; but they set it off anyway!! Thousands of nuclear bombs going off at the same time are sure to destroy this entire planet!! Our leaders are quite insane!!

Posted by: cousin lucky | Jul 7 2023 16:18 utc | 41

Ukraine will use them on civilians, just as they have been doing already.

I also remember seeing Patrick Lancaster interviewing residents of Donetsk after they had been attacked with cluster bombs. Luckily, all of the clusters did not explode, or the carnage to civilians would have been even worse.

Posted by: wagelaborer | Jul 7 2023 16:24 utc | 42

"– Verden blir ikke den samme etter dette, en veldig bestialsk form for våpen ødelegges og forbys, sa statsminister Jens Stoltenberg (Ap) til NTB like etter at han hadde signert avtalen."

Posted by: Trond | Jul 7 2023 15:59 utc | 35

The world will not be the same after this, a terribly beastly form of munition destroys and is prohibited said Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg to NBT after he had signed agreement.

Posted by: sal | Jul 7 2023 16:28 utc | 43

@ HB_Norica | Jul 7 2023 16:03 utc | 37

If Ukraine uses cluster munitions on Donetsk civilians expect another NATO or Ukrainian command bunker to go boom.

Yes. Those do go boom only when there is a meeting, as inflicting losses in personnel is more valuable, than blowing up some concrete. That is somewhat easier to organize, if within the same language zone, and near by.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 7 2023 16:28 utc | 44

The petal mines were different from the cluster bombs. Ukraine did scatter petal mines around Donetsk, which were difficult to see and avoid, and which caused harm to children and dogs when they walked on them.

But they definitely also used cluster bombs.

Posted by: wagelaborer | Jul 7 2023 16:28 utc | 45

I suppose it is not a question of "Is the U.S. participant in conflict" - is about recognizing the U.S. is participant in conflict and the results that would flow from such a determination. Alternatively might accelerate to progress or take steps to break the will of the west to continue.

I am sure these are hugely difficult and wearing decisions. The west seems to take it lightly.

Posted by: jared | Jul 7 2023 16:29 utc | 46

Neocons quadrupling down: “NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg says he expects leaders of the alliance to ‘reaffirm that Ukraine will become a member of NATO’ at the alliance summit in Vilnius, Lithuania, next week.” (justthenews.com 7/7/23)

https://jamesburrillangell.substack.com/p/strange-diplomacy-

Posted by: Doim | Jul 7 2023 16:29 utc | 47

Posted by: gottlieb | Jul 7 2023 14:42 utc | 12

"The USA is a living breathing biblical war crime and the more the "American People" allow evil in its name"

I was with you until this point. The American people are not allowing anything. It's being crammed down their throats by a unified CIA run media, two pro war billionaire parties, a CIA managed internet and a legal system that will crush any individual who seriously resists any of this. Your comment is like blaming the rape victim for the rape.

These are the crimes of the ruling class, a tiny group of vampires that have set up a police state government with democratic window dressing.

What is to be done by the oppressed American working class in this situation is a difficult question. What would you have them do? Vote for one of the two war parties? Pull another J6?

What's needed is class consciousness and a class war so they can break out of the same national delusions you seem to suffer from, see themselves as workers and this political elite for what they are: ruling class stooges trying to save the fortunes of the billionaires through an insane impossible effort to bury china and Russia, their most serious competition.

By your logic, all Israelis, workers and the ruling class, anti war or not, in power or not, should also be paying a biblical price for their inability to instantly stop their disgusting, blood soaked ruling class. In other words, collective punishment, a backward concept of the middle ages, although currently practiced against the Palestinians today in Jenin.

And the supposed "secular humanism" of the ruling class has nothing to do with it. Like all the woke bullshit, that's just window dressing too.

They are individualists first, seeking wealth and status. They see the imperial behemoth as the perfect vehicle for their ambitions, so they are ardent capitalist nationalists willing to set fire to the world if that's needed to further the interests of the ruling class of US imperialism.


Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 7 2023 16:35 utc | 48

If or when Russia actually pushes NATO out of reach of Russian and new Russian territories this becomes the wests problem. Russia will respond in kind until what’s left of Ukraine costs more than it’s worth to the west.

Posted by: Mark A | Jul 7 2023 16:39 utc | 49

If or when Russia actually pushes NATO out of reach of Russian and new Russian territories this becomes the wests problem. Russia will respond in kind until what’s left of Ukraine costs more than it’s worth to the west.

Posted by: Mark A | Jul 7 2023 16:39 utc | 50

Posted by: Merkin Scot | Jul 7 2023 14:17 utc | 4

"Can Biden and the neo-nazis ever do anything that has not been second guessed by the bar regulars? Doubt it."

Is that a bad thing? You rightly call them Nazis, but pretty trolly comment here. People come to the bar for just this "second guessing". Why are you here?

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 7 2023 16:44 utc | 51

They have nukes.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 7 2023 15:10 utc | 20

Assuming you're referring to the US, the US also have bio / chemical weapons which I'm expecting them to at some point. Let's see how this NATO summit will go. Maybe they'll approve the use of F16s.

Posted by: Ian2 | Jul 7 2023 16:44 utc | 52

The anger and impatience of posters here is a leading indicator of anger and impatience among ordinary Russians, which is what was missing in March 2022. Without an angry public backing him, Putin is on weak ground. So Putin must always go slow. A few thousand dead or maimed civilians and few thousand square kilometers of permanently ruined land is a small price to pay for uniting the Russian people and rousing their anger. Motivation is what will actually win the war.

Also, at some point, Russia can arrange for eventual Ukrainian puppet state to hand over guerillas and other troublemakers for hard labor clearing mines, so maybe the land won't be permanently ruined. 1 prisoner can probably clear 1 hectare per month, so maybe 10000 prisoners and a few years to clean up all the mess.

Posted by: Revelo | Jul 7 2023 16:45 utc | 53

remember how last year in Italy dock-workers refused to deliver crates to UKR? Their contents were undisclosed.
This time everybody would know whats in it.

Funny how all the honourable talk about civilized behaviour, anti-war sentiment, "Nunca Mas" rhetoric and stuff just fall apart faced with the realities of power.

p.s. Nunca Mas

Look up former deputy prosecutor Luis Moreno Ocampo´s CV. (He was part of the team vs. the Argentinian dictators on trial 1985)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luis_Moreno_Ocampo

If ICC is stuffed with people like him no wonder the system of intern. law is totally flawed.

Posted by: AG | Jul 7 2023 16:45 utc | 54

Thanks, B.

I called my Congressional rep. and protested sending cluster munitions to Ukraine.

Posted by: GoFast | Jul 7 2023 16:48 utc | 55

Trouble with Russia is that all officials and media of Russia talk too verbose and explain too detailed boring way their point of view which nobody has patience to listen or read. Russians can not put in short what they mean.so west ignores them easily mot talkative sergie Lavrov is master in bring talk which kills people with boredom . Russian do not know effective communication so they come across as bending down as if repeating their point will convince the evil Anglo controlled west

Posted by: Sam | Jul 7 2023 16:50 utc | 56

Not just a WH decision.

It is widely supported by the political establishment including our Congresscritters.

They actually do not seem to care about facts, the conduct of the war, the incredible losses sustained by Ukraine, etc. as long as major policy issues, such as teaching the Russians a lesson, can stand up to 'scrutiny' (i.e. cheerleading) by MSM, Hollywood and the usual suspects.

The WaPo coverage, IMHO, stands out. NYT, wsj, etc. crickets. A lot more grinding away, slowly, will accomplish something. Putin is doing something right.

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jul 7 2023 16:52 utc | 57

Washington is supplying these munitions because they have nothing else to give. It is an act of desperation and impenetrable denial.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jul 7 2023 14:23 utc | 6
My own thoughts on this escalation.

Posted by: jpc | Jul 7 2023 16:52 utc | 58

@ Ghost of Zanon | Jul 7 2023 16:13 utc | 39

Russia could simply send a few volleys of similar "scorched earth" ordinance toward Lvov, Kiev, or the roads near the border with Poland.

I doubt that RF will climb down to the NATO's way of thinking and a way of waging the war, in that way. I expect more of a diplomatic-technical-military measures for creating the desired buffer-zone. It is a good enough excuse. West lost on its ZNPP panic and fear tactics, bigly, so they will continue to double-down, until RF makes the move.
RF is kicking the USA out, simultaneously, from Syria and from Europe, very gently, but resolute.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 7 2023 16:53 utc | 59

Ian2 no. 53

I imagine NATO summit will be another farce. These heads of state are quite clearly mentally deranged.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jul 7 2023 16:53 utc | 60

@Doim 48

well, then what the fuck was there to talk about in NY in April as NBC claimed?

"Hey Sergey, we will double-down on the NATO thing"
"Yeah, we know."
"And then we will quadruple down on the NATO thing"
"Yeah, we know."
"And we´ll put missiles in Romania, Finland and Poland."
"Yeah, we know."
"And you will carry on with you SMO?"
"Yep."
"So, care for a drink?"
"Sure."
"Anything else to offer?"
"Nope."
"Neither do we."
"Na Sdorówje then."
"Na Sdorówje pal."

Posted by: AG | Jul 7 2023 16:57 utc | 61

You can Bet that just like the Scatterable Landmines that have already been provided to the kosher/nazi regime, these Munitions will be used mostly against Civilians, also like was done with Soviet-era "Petal Mines". But it's only dumb goyim being slaughtered, and 'yahweh' says that's not a Sin...

Posted by: Gryphon | Jul 7 2023 16:59 utc | 62

Re: Ciaran
""What the Poles do over the next few weeks is critical, perhaps as critical as was their refusal to return Danzig to the German Reich in 1939, which ultimately cost Britain its Empire. Will the US lose its own as precipitously as did Britain, in response to possible foolish aggression by Poland?

Posted by: Ciaran | Jul 7 2023 15:40 utc | 31 ""

This my comment pertains to "DRANG NACH OSTEN" (East) from DE where Ukraine is - so it is on topic:

Gdańsk (formerly Danzig) lies basically North. Not East.
Drang Nach Osten would happen anyway. The Gleiwitz (Gliwice) provocation at the Radio mast (botched, by the Germans) was at South of the territory. Bydgoszcz provocation - in the middle of the territory where II World War started, Sept. 1st, 1939.
The Danzig thing was peripheral. The carnage of the defenders of the Polish Post Office building of Gdańsk and the heroic defense of the Westerplatte at the sea side under Schlezwig-Holstein dredadnought massive guns that week were only the prelude to to the aim to grab the entire East. And this is being repeated now, again. If only the Russkies did not demand stopping murdering Russian people of Donbas, daily, for 8 (or more) years - than it would be nice there now . . . . . Right?

Posted by: LogosApplied | Jul 7 2023 17:04 utc | 63

Biden's asinine escalations run the risk of motivating a whistleblower to undeniably spill the beans on the Nordstream sabotage.

One wonders who was disciplined over the recent little cocaine escapade?

Posted by: too scents | Jul 7 2023 17:08 utc | 64

Friendly reminder: V. Nuland stated in June that NATO joins war on July 11th. We are 4 days away. Likely to be true, US must have war to reinstall Biden. The cover for the next stolen election is of course "war time President's always get reelected". MSM will parrot that ad-nauseam.

Posted by: CeaClearly | Jul 7 2023 17:09 utc | 65

Russia must extract from the US, as a condition of a negotiated settlement, that all costs of demining, or removing radioactive earth, be borne by the US and its allies.

Posted by: Chee C. Lai | Jul 7 2023 17:15 utc | 66

German-Finnish hacker and entrepreneur Kim Dotkom describes the situation with Ukraine and NATO

If Zelensky fails to drag NATO into the American proxy war, his days are numbered. It was not worth listening to empty promises of support from the United States in exchange for the rejection of the peace agreement with Russia.

It was a stupid mistake that cost Ukraine dearly - another victim of the States, ” Dotcom wrote.

@Slavyangrad

This is correct. Zelensky / Ukraine gambled their entire statehood and future and most potent population on the assumption that USA joins starting WW3 against Russia. If that would happen, then all these sacrifices made by Ukraine would simply cease to matter.

Well guess what. It didn't and won't happen and now Ukraine is simply screwed for the next 50 years and more and probably never again appear on the map as an independent state. I'd expect it will be eaten up over the years.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 7 2023 17:18 utc | 67

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 7 2023 16:35 utc | 49

"Under the influence of politicians, masses of people tend to ascribe the responsibility for wars to those who wield power at any given time. In World War I it was the munitions industrialists; in World War II it was the psychopathic generals who were said to be guilty. This is passing the buck.

The responsibility for wars falls solely upon the shoulders of these same masses of people, for they have all the necessary means to avert war in their own hands. In part by their apathy, in part by their passivity, and in part actively, these same masses of people make possible the catastrophes under which they themselves suffer more than anyone else.

To stress this guilt on the part of the masses of people, to hold them solely responsible, means to take them seriously. On the other hand, to commiserate masses of people as victims, means to treat them as small, helpless children. The former is the attitude held by genuine freedom fighters; the latter that attitude held by power-thirsty politicians."

Wilhelm Reich, The Mass Psychology of Fascism"

"American people are very much like the children of a Mafia boss who do not know what their father does for a living, and don't want to know, but then wonder why someone just threw a firebomb through the living room window." - William Blum -

Posted by: Jams O'Doinnell | Jul 7 2023 17:21 utc | 68

Biden: "Do we have any mustard gas to send?" He then goes back to sleep, Nuland starts making some calls ...

Posted by: daffyDuct | Jul 7 2023 17:22 utc | 69

@ unimperator | Jul 7 2023 17:18 utc | 68

---

It is a mistake to give Zelensky more agency than to an addict in delirium. All of the attention given to him should instead be focused on identifying his puppeteers.

Posted by: too scents | Jul 7 2023 17:23 utc | 70

The article b linked at Human Rights Watch says Russia has already been using these things too.

Posted by: Ed2 | Jul 7 2023 15:18 utc | 24

HRW, a fully financed subsidiary of the US government.

Posted by: laguerre | Jul 7 2023 17:25 utc | 71

Only useful in niche scenarios.

If used en masse, dud cant be mapped, unlike a minefield, so the area becomes risky to advance in after a mass barrage.

Americans dont care, wont know, and most of them think we should just nuke Russia. They are simplicicus boobus. Total simpleton idiots, who still think they could beat Russia if only those damn politicians in DC didn't interfere. The idea America might not even be the supreme military on Earth doesn't even cross their minds. It's still 2003 to them.

And people really ought to stop thinking Ukraine will in any way affect, or be effected by "Nov 2024". There is absolutely no consideration of "Nov 2024" by any politician when it comes to Ukraine. The hot issues are always 1) abortion... Then way down the line 2, 3, and 4 are culture war issues, then a bunch of economic issues, and finally at about 20 or 30 you might find foreign policies, and then, at about 40 you might find " what weapons are sent to Ukraine"

I know this sounds cynical, but its not. Its the truth. AMERICANS DONT CARE ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 7 2023 17:25 utc | 72

Ukraine can't keep secrets from Russia. If Ukraine uses cluster munitions on Donetsk civilians expect another NATO or Ukrainian command bunker to go boom.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Jul 7 2023 16:03 utc | 37

You're missing the point. The point is, if Russia knows where those command bunkers are, they should be "going boom" anyway. What is Russia doing, waiting for more civilians to be massacred before it feels like blowing up the enemy? This is a very simple question which has never been adequately answered. All I ever get in response are the cooing catamite screech-owls who cluck and dote upon me that I don't understand the 5D-logic of the SMO.

It cannot be both ways. On the one hand, I have people here telling me that it is too costly for Russia to occupy all of Ukraine. On the other hand, I have people telling me (quite rightly, in this case) that Ukraine is irrelevant and Russia is really in an undeclared attritional war against NATO.

Well, by Jove, man! If Russia is really fighting NATO, then occupying Ukraine and interdicting the supply routes from the West is the only way to get NATO away from it. NATO is never going to relent as long as there is a Ukraine to attack from, so Russia needs to make the full annexation of Ukraine a fait accompli. That is the only way this thing is ever going to stop, and Colonel MacGregor agrees with me.

Furthermore, you cannot say that Russia is taking it slow in order to avoid escalation from NATO. It is plain NATO is going to escalate no matter what. All paths lead to the same place now, so taking it slow only gives NATO more time to get lucky (you can always get lucky in battle, you know). How many more Nord Streams and Karkhovka Dams does the West get to arrange before something truly terrible happens?

The way that Russia has just breezily dismissed these infrastructure attacks and likewise wants to quickly bury the Prigozhin Rebellion, are indications that all is not quite right in the House of Russia. It is time to up the operational tempo or the problems will only get worse.

Finally, as I mentioned already, I understand the arguments in favor of the SloMO -- I've made them myself. But arguments that might have been true six months ago are not necessarily as relevant today. Things change, and strategies need to change with them. I'm tired of reading the same old stuff from people who haven't changed their tune to face up to the new realities.

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 7 2023 17:29 utc | 73

Russia must extract from the US, as a condition of a negotiated settlement, that all costs of demining, or removing radioactive earth, be borne by the US and its allies.

Posted by: Chee C. Lai | Jul 7 2023 17:15 utc | 67

Negotiated settlement?   ROFL   The US is damn well near bankrupt. They don't even have the money to fix their own infrastructure. Why else is Yellen in China? Besides, the only way to make that "negotiated settlement" to happen is to militarily defeat the US (i.e. Russian boots on US soil).


I know this sounds cynical, but its not. Its the truth. AMERICANS DONT CARE ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 7 2023 17:25 utc | 73

Agreed. And they never will.

Posted by: Ian2 | Jul 7 2023 17:33 utc | 74

@ too scents | July 07, 2023 at 17:23

Edit adding:

My own feeling is that the situation in Ukraine is due to a confluence of factors.

Principally an alignment of the forces of imperial hegemony with the historical pale of settlement and Zionist fever dreams. Plus, the real estate is fabulous.

Certainly vicious ethnic cleansing is happening. But I think it is wrong to blame a single party. So many in the West have been swept up in the chance of the moment.

Posted by: too scents | Jul 7 2023 17:35 utc | 75

It is widely supported by the political establishment including our Congresscritters.

If only the Republicans hadn't stupidly support the war, this would have been the perfect opportunity to impeach Biden and the rest of his war mongering administration.

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 7 2023 17:38 utc | 76

It's a strange quirk of neoliberal logic. If Ukrainians are firing cluster weapons, Ukrainians are breaking the law. Similar to the Sufi logic that says the tenants' rent pays the mortgage interest , not the mortgage-holder.

There is no special response to ass-holery of any kind apart from not doing business with the perpetrators. 87 % of RoW is taking its business elsewhere.

Posted by: Giyane | Jul 7 2023 17:41 utc | 77

Nod is a danger to the US and to the world.

Posted by: Jeff Harrison | Jul 7 2023 14:13 utc | 2

Funnily enough, China is proposing the creation of a Global Defense Security Initiative (GSI) project in order to counter the Nod's influence.

Alright, I'm out.

Posted by: Lemming | Jul 7 2023 17:42 utc | 78

Intelligent [email protected] up to new realities....that's gonna be a tough sell round these parts....

Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 7 2023 17:48 utc | 79

"Proof positive of age related dementia. Nod is a danger to the US and the world."
#2

He does not have dementia. I don't know what's going on there but I've been around enough people with dementia to know that that's not it. And I know what everyone says oh they pump them full of drugs and that's why he can function but if that were true a lot of other people would be getting those drugs too and they're not. People with advanced dementia never get as sharp as he is sometimes. It's very weird

Posted by: Whitney | Jul 7 2023 17:49 utc | 80

@ Intelligent Dasein | Jul 7 2023 17:29 utc | 74

---

In all things it is better to cure the cause rather than the symptom.

The underlying cause of the Ukrainian conflict has not yet been identified, yet alone addressed.

Posted by: too scents | Jul 7 2023 17:51 utc | 81

The reason Russia doesnt hit command centers, or engage in a offensive, is because, it can't.

It hits command centers when it has intelligence that high priority targets are massed there. Otherwise its just wasting missiles on blackening brick. Russia then claims it was "retaliation" for this attack or that attack, but if you take a step back, Russia hits command centers all the time.

Russia simply can not make a massive offensive and clean up. All those wunderwaffen everybody derides here as useless actually do have significant effect on the battlefield, the most significant being real time intelligence support.

Russia only has air dominance on the fronts. Ukrainian AD is still effective and dangerous. It still shoots down Russian missiles all the time.

And then there is the unterwaffen. Land mines, bunkers, trenches, booby traps. Not great for taking land, but can quickly sap an advancing Army.

It's only been 18 months. DPR and LPR were shelled for eight years, so them getting shelled now is not anything worse than before the SMO, the only difference is now the people know Russia is helping.

I know there will be a cacophony of "Nut Uh! Rrrrusseyah Stronk!". No, compared to a NATO backed Ukraine, it is a little above peer, at best.

In wat, at times like these, there are always those who wish to throw caution to the wind, and just "get ot over with". They often begin to then question the motives of their leaders, and insinuate they may even be compromised.

I dont know if Russia has an endgame, but I assume they do. They may however, just be in the position of looking for an opening. Until then, its win the war of attrition.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 7 2023 17:53 utc | 82

@74
Great points.
I think your observation that "all is not quite right in the House of Russia" must be the explanation. The arguments from both pro- and anti-SMO commentators seem to be either that Russia is all-powerful and is trying to rebuild the old USSR or that it is about to collapse being a corrupt gas station with nukes.
The truth is more likely in-between. Russia has a lot of internal problems that it needs to work on before resolving the threat posed by NATO. Dmitry Orlov seems to be the best commentator noticing this process, check out his work if you haven't already. To summarize his points, Russia is actually benefiting from this war using it to restructure its education system, military, global role and economy and will emerge in the next few years much stronger than it is now, regardless of what happens in Ukraine (short of a total rout of the Russian army).
Accordingly, I wouldn't be surprised if Russia keeps this thing on a slow burn for the next 2-3 years, taking only small chunks of territory to keep domestic morale high. This sucks for Ukraine but they made their choice to go down this path in 2014.

Posted by: Tom Ernest Weiss | Jul 7 2023 17:55 utc | 83

One wonders what action the UN will take against the US for using these banned munitions, I'd wager nothing will be said never mind done, the US is getting desperate and it looks like Biden is grasping at anything to fill the weapons gap, hoping it turns the tide which it won't.

Its just a matter of time before the mad dogs at the Pentagon come up with a crazy idea that leads to some sort of escalation between Nato and Russia or even China.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jul 7 2023 17:55 utc | 84

Readers haven't gotten it yet?

Russia is not fighting to win. Russia has no 'red lines'. Russia will bend to its anglo saxon masters and bend over and take whatever is given to them.

Posted by: Sundance | Jul 7 2023 18:00 utc | 85

People with advanced dementia never get as sharp as he is sometimes. It's very weird

Posted by: Whitney | Jul 7 2023 17:49 utc | 81

Guy is yet another crackpot.
When he's under substance he wakes up and utters a few bright sentences then prolly gets back to dumbness, confusion for hours or days ...

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 7 2023 18:02 utc | 86

The point is, if Russia knows where those command bunkers are, they should be "going boom" anyway. What is Russia doing, waiting for more civilians to be massacred before it feels like blowing up the enemy? This is a very simple question which has never been adequately answered.

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 7 2023 17:29 utc | 74

The most obvious answer is that Russia doesn't know where all those bunkers are located.



Nod is a danger to the US and to the world.

Posted by: Jeff Harrison | Jul 7 2023 14:13 utc | 2

Funnily enough, China is proposing the creation of a Global Defense Security Initiative (GSI) project in order to counter the Nod's influence.

Alright, I'm out.

Posted by: Lemming | Jul 7 2023 17:42 utc | 79

LOL   Any idea when Kane will make his debut?

Posted by: Ian2 | Jul 7 2023 18:02 utc | 87

a lot of other people would be getting those drugs too

Posted by: Whitney | Jul 7 2023 17:49 utc | 81

---

When Trump got Covid he was given a multi-million dollar cure at Walter Reed.

Biden has had multiple brain surgeries for aneurysms. Whatever he is he is not normal. He's not yet as vegetative as Feinstein though. That is the performative precedent.

https://www.google.com/search?q=biden+brain+sugery+aneurysm

Posted by: too scents | Jul 7 2023 18:02 utc | 88

A Radio Free Europe (classic CIA front piece) from March 2022 is headed:

UN Says It Has Credible Reports Of Russian Use Of Cluster Bombs In Ukraine

https://www.rferl.org/a/russia-cluster-bombs-ukraine-war-crimes/31748612.html

There is an image of a collection of cluster bomblets immediately below the headline, implying that this is a current image from Ukraine.

https://gdb.rferl.org/3AEAA5C4-21E8-4B9B-8928-923E763686CD_w250_r1_s.jpg

It is actually a photo dating to 2016 originating in Syria. The articles associated with the original picture blame Assad so it seems likely that the image comes from ISIS / whatever they were called then. The bomblets are also clustered very close together whch wouldn't happen if they had actually been deployed from a munition. The photo is a staged collection of cluster bomblets.

Posted by: Arfur Mo | Jul 7 2023 18:03 utc | 89

Posted by: Ian2 | Jul 7 2023 18:02 utc | 88

Biden's red speech looked and sounded pretty Kane-ish if you forget the age difference. "Peace through Power" and all that.

Posted by: Lemming | Jul 7 2023 18:06 utc | 90

"– Verden blir ikke den samme etter dette, en veldig bestialsk form for våpen ødelegges og forbys, sa statsminister Jens Stoltenberg (Ap) til NTB like etter at han hadde signert avtalen."

(I do not have time to translate).

Posted by: Trond | Jul 7 2023 15:59 utc | 35

Drug addict stoltenberg is "veldig bestialsk" himself. Everything changes once they join the satanists.

The finnish whore prime minister, who ran the covid scam, had warned against corporate medical tyranny some 10-15 years ago. The finnish shitbag president urged Russia to intervene in the nazi terrorism in Donbass sometime 2015.

Backstabbers. Capital punishment needs to be reinstated. Legally, of course.

Posted by: Mike | Jul 7 2023 18:07 utc | 91

People with advanced dementia never get as sharp as he is sometimes. It's very weird

Posted by: Whitney | Jul 7 2023 17:49 utc | 81

I'd say Biden is more just getting really old...watch him talk even just a few years back. Now he stutters more, he needs cue cards and constant guidance..he's all stiff when he moves and walks around. But that said, there is a difference between true dementia, and just the typical degeneration that happens when we get older. Also, as far as the verbal gaffes - I know older people who do that kind of stuff all the time. Sure their memory isn't as sharp as it was, but they are still fully aware of their surroundings.

Posted by: Frank McGar | Jul 7 2023 18:07 utc | 92

Sundance - you don't seem very well. Suggest you go an lie down in a darkened room until you feel better.

Posted by: Pancho Plail | Jul 7 2023 18:07 utc | 93

This would appear to be carte blanche for Russia to respond in kind. It seems like an excellent way to destroy small infantry assault groups who have given up the protection of western armour because they don't like breaking them.

Posted by: Pancho Plail | Jul 7 2023 18:10 utc | 94

Is every available 155mm gun in Ukraine, or is there a reserve somewhere else?

Posted by: too scents | Jul 7 2023 18:16 utc | 95

@ unimperator | Jul 7 2023 17:18 utc | 68

The trouble is that we are above the line 'do or die' for the West, when it becomes very clear that the public and also corporate money is blown again (and never coming back) and the time for settling internal bills among the NATO's members might appear, sooner rather than latter.
Therefore, absurdly, choose to 'die' then, before everything is being openly debated and publicized, concluding that Ukraine, and perhaps EU, is lost and a personal accountability follows.

So, I hope very short, somewhat high intensity, non-nuclear, conflict might be tried, with a quick deescalation, failed again.
We also have to think in an oversight of different current and possible front-lines. Syria, Libya, Taiwan-China, Iran, Palestine, Mexico, etc. are becoming very uniformly hostile to, and allergic on how the USA is a way too slowly pushed out of those. EU also must be de-Americanized, if it wants to continue.

Posted by: whirlX | Jul 7 2023 18:20 utc | 96

@mtw, #3:

I agree with you. There seems to be no limit on how low the Empire would stoop to get what they want. Their vassal states are of the same minds. It appears clear that nuclear warfare is an option to them if necessary. Humanity is facing calamity because I don't think the other side would, nor should, cower to their blustering.

Only a decade ago I was of the mindset that there are still grownups at the highest levels, in Deep State, in academia, in social/religious organizations to play checks and balances. Not anymore. The western world is run by abject/immoral psychopaths.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jul 7 2023 18:22 utc | 97

Whitney @81:

And I know what everyone says oh they pump them full of drugs and that's why he can function but if that were true a lot of other people would be getting those drugs too and they're not.

Biden is being juiced up with a cocktail of amphetamine and anti-psychotics. This mix is administered in fairly large doses, but those large doses cause damage. Every time they load Biden up with this concoction he comes down from it worse off than the last time, so they use it sparingly and only when he absolutely must make a public appearance. There is absolutely no way any legitimate doctor would ever prescribe this as part of an ongoing treatment. There is no way senior dementia patients would be treated with this stuff because they are much easier to manage if they are treated with sedatives. In fact, Biden likely is treated with sedatives between his occasional staged appearances. That helps keep him "fresh".

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 7 2023 18:27 utc | 98

I dont know if Russia has an endgame, but I assume they do. They may however, just be in the position of looking for an opening. Until then, its win the war of attrition.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 7 2023 17:53 utc | 83

If Russia doesn't have an ed game then its elite are betraying the people as in 1991.
One could interpret the launching of a military operation on Feb 24th, 2022 as pure madness as opposed to just cutting the gas to Western Europe - that is not yet effective - bringing it on its knees in weeks at little cost. A negociation for actual implementation of Minsk II would have worked like a charm the very next month in March 2022.
No bloodshed at all, to the contrary the end of it.

The other interpretation is that Russia waits because piling-up non nuclear means to achieve Strategic superiority.
Taking avantage of the current window of opportunity when it has superiority in hypersonics.
Likely by building an enormous stock of hypersonic missiles as well as supersonic and subsonic ones in order to be able to strike decisively NATO assets. As I pointed many times, by order of importance; degrade/destroy FUKUS navies including SSBNs (14 US, 4 French, 4 British) - Not all at sea at the same time (more or less 1/3 to half), cannot fire nukes from harbours.
Degrade destroy NATO Air bases/Assets in Europe/ME.
Degrade destroy FUKUS ground to ground ICBMs.
Ability to degrade enough NATO combat and especially strike potential without nukes would confine a major war to the non-nuclear field while disallowing NATO/US ability to reduce significantly Russian forces.

Of course there could be other goals in geopolitic area that would justifiy or explain the persistance of the SMO.

Also sheer incompetence could also be at play ...

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jul 7 2023 18:28 utc | 99

To the moderator: I think this does remind people about the need to be vigilant about false rumours.
@Ciaran | Jul 7 2023 15:40 utc | 31
About Britain loosing the empire due to Polands stupid refusal concerning Danzig

But it was Britain who encouraged Polands foolishness. Before that Poland had an understanding with Germany.
And the US were likewise involved in pushing them.
But I dont agree with those who see FDR separately as culpable.
Like WWI, WW2 was Britains war. And they exerted subtantial influence over the US.
FDR didnt have the power to oppose the oligarchy but acted in the knowledge that the economy for ordinary americans after winning the war would get a boost.
A relief after the depression. I suspect some the better informed of Bidens sympathisers have a related frame of mind, although they fully understand the cynicism.

@LogosApplied | Jul 7 2023 17:04 utc | 64
About the botched attack at Gleiwitz

There are doubts about the reality of the Gleiwitz incident. Hitler didnt refer to it only to unspecified assaults.
After the war the prisoner Naujocks (alias Hans Müller, Alfred Bonsen, and Rudolf Möbert, ) who admitted being involved was probably coerced and the people involved in putting pressure on him had initially spoken openly about faking the whole thing.

Naujocks (sounds like now jokes - MI6 humour?) had however been involved in an attack on another radiostation to assassinate a resistance journalist.
It is obvious that the US/UK intel after WW2 had something to offer a compliant SS prisoner.

Posted by: petergrfstrm | Jul 7 2023 18:29 utc | 100

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