Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 16, 2023
The MoA Week In Review – (Not Ukraine) OT 2023-168

Last week's post on Moon of Alabama:

> “The new policy embodied in Oct. 7 is: Not only are we not going to allow China to progress any further technologically, we are going to actively reverse their current state of the art,” Allen says. C.J. Muse, a senior semiconductor analyst at Evercore ISI, put it this way: “If you’d told me about these rules five years ago, I would’ve told you that’s an act of war — we’d have to be at war.” <


Other issues:

Prigozin Affair:

Xinjiang:

Capitalism:

European Disunity:

Use as open (not Ukraine related) thread …

Comments

Jimmy Barnes – Lay Down Your Guns (feat. The Living End) – Official Video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdv9qL7AMj0

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 16 2023 13:06 utc | 1

I’ll repost from last open thread
Looks like Twitter Purdah for non registered viewers has been lifted.
Though it also seems the time line of tweets has disappeared. Can’t see anything back from when feed activated. Curious.
What did it achieve for the King Of Mars’s enterprise?

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jul 16 2023 13:26 utc | 2

The most twitter user minutes ever, last week.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 13:31 utc | 3

Links to RT are 404ed today. Kaspersky won’t allow visits to RT either. I guess that they really wanted to assassinate the editor in chief.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 16 2023 13:37 utc | 4

Observations over the last four decades show us that the models are wildly wrong and the rate of warming falls into natural variability unremarkable to anything seen in the past. But instead of changing the model inputs to match the real world data, the richly funded alarmists dig in and adjust the data to match their previous conclusions.
This is fraud on an epic scale.
Worse, anyone who questions their numbers is automatically discredited, called a ‘denier’ and hit over the head with the Hockey Stick. Truth is arrived at in science by challenging theories, but that’s not allowed in this field and it’s deeply sinister. Look at what’s happening; sceptical scientists and journalists hounded out of their jobs, or the MSM and social network sites removing content that goes against the climate party line.
It’s a young science. One day, it’ll grow up and get itself a standards agency that stops those who do the theory and modelling from messing about with the raw data; like civil engineering did.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 13:50 utc | 5

GT Stroller@5
What you are doing is defending the oligarchs of capitalism who are intent on escaping regulation.
Whether or not the models used by those scientists who detect ‘climate change’ are accurate is of little relevance. There are a million other reasons to prevent capitalists from polluting the environment and killing millions of people prematurely.
Besides which, as the chorus of which you are a part demonstrates, leaving narrow business interests in control of all the important sources of energy gives them both enormous wealth, exercised as power in politics and the media, and a reason to use it to defend their profits without regard to the havoc caused.
Havoc which may or may not include direct effects on the climate.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:05 utc | 6

@GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 13:50 utc | 5
Entirely correct, except it isn’t really science. They are practicing politics.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 16 2023 14:06 utc | 7

@bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:05 utc | 6

Whether or not the models used by those scientists who detect ‘climate change’ are accurate is of little relevance.

You just confirmed my point it isn’t science.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 16 2023 14:09 utc | 8

July 10 – Ukraine SitRep: ‘Mosquito’ Tactics – S-200 Land Attacks

I guess the failure of that strategy attests to the effectiveness of Russia’s “Swat” team.

Posted by: David Levin | Jul 16 2023 14:17 utc | 9

Norwegian@8
I don’t care whether it is science or not and nor would any rational person.
There is a vast amount of data, which can be scientifically established as valid, which shows that the capitalist class and the fossil fuel companies are polluting the planet, to the detriment of society and a threat to generations unborn, in order to enhance the profitability of the capital they have invested.
Furthermore they make enormous amounts of money which they use to distort and compromise public debate and scientific research.
In short they must be regulated for the good of all, including idiots who defend the polluters by nit picking in the name of scientific probity.
Do you not realise that politics is of great importance in a world governed by selfish class interests?

Posted by: bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:21 utc | 10

GT Stroller@5
What you are doing is defending the oligarchs of capitalism who are intent on escaping regulation.
Posted by: bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:05 utc | 6

No, the poster isn’t doing that. Moreover, it seems to me that the oligarchs of capitalism benefit from the climate-change debate because it draws attention away from issues such as their virtual monopoly on energy production and the need to reduce pollution.

Posted by: David Levin | Jul 16 2023 14:28 utc | 11

“…it seems to me that the oligarchs of capitalism benefit from the climate-change debate because it draws attention away from issues such as their virtual monopoly on energy production and the need to reduce pollution..” David Levin@11
Then we are in agreement-as you will discover if you read what I wrote.
I disagree, however, that “the poster is not” ‘drawing attention away from issues such as their virtual monopoly on energy production and the need to reduce pollution.’
He is. The ‘debate’ in question is not actually a debate at all but an unending series of nit picking cavils designed to prevent society from getting to grips with the real issues. Which are:
1/ The power of the fossil fuel and other capitalists which comes from their wealth and their strategic position in the economy.
2/ The continual degradation of every natural resource by uncontrolled and cynically irresponsible interests for whom returns on capital are all that matters- all that holds them together and, in some senses, all that the law allows them to be motivated by.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:51 utc | 12

Posted by: bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:05 utc | 6
the capitalist class and the fossil fuel companies are polluting the planet, to the detriment of society and a threat to generations unborn,

The level of pollution is limited to accidental spills (and they occur in countries where the petroleum industry is nationalised too), and minor levels of airborne particulates. Far from being a detriment to society, oil and gas have lengthened everyones lives, hugely reduced hard manual labour for the working class, and led to technological advances that enable worldwide communications at the flick of a button at very low cost. Plastics have revolutionised production of inexpensive goods, and reduced the need to cut trees down or grow large areas of monoculture cotton crops, and many other benefits. Producers would produce oil if the mass of humanity didn’t demand it’s products.
Furthermore they make enormous amounts of money which they use to distort and compromise public debate and scientific research.
On the contrary, the public debate has been distorted by the blanket exclusion of people skeptical of “the settled science” and “The Green energy revolution”.
In short they must be regulated for the good of all, including idiots who defend the polluters by nit picking in the name of scientific probity.
Your totalitarian tendency is showing. Once science has been chewed up and spat out by your regulators, ideology is all that will be left, and that leads to violent conflict. Science is the best, rational method we have to arbitrate the truth about the nature of the world, which people of all political stripes should be able to civilly debate around. It’s being destroyed to the detriment of all. State regulated science gets you Trofim Lysenko and mass starvation.
“I’d rather have questions that can’t be answered, than answers that can’t be questioned.” Richard Feynman
Do you not realise that politics is of great importance in a world governed by selfish class interests?
Yes, but it needs to get it’s nose out of science and win its arguments honestly, not by bending the data and cooking up bad theory.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 15:09 utc | 13

Denihilism.
what a way to waste space. global warming appears fully embraced,
a strategic goal of the US military and political establishment.
meanwhile-
Petroleum Marketing Lobbyist Institute representatives are spreading the word.
Latest research reveals…
Fuck you too.

Posted by: Not Ewe | Jul 16 2023 15:17 utc | 14

Bevin –
Some of the worst on the ground pollution from carbon fuel extraction activities (esp when you compare the extraction amounts with the capitalist countries) happened in the old Soviet Union. It’s not about capitalism, it’s about regulation and correct assignment of responsibility. Yes, the bosses will try to game the system. It’s up to the citizens to stop it.
As for the actual damages caused by oil/gas over time, I notice that people who harp on that tend to not mention the fact that these substances are primarily responsible for the benefits enjoyed in our modern life: plentiful food, easy transportation, heating/cooling on demand, etc. etc. … seven billion humans could not even be fed if it were not for hydrocarbons. So let’s balance pollution against actual existence, shall we?

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 16 2023 15:21 utc | 15

bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:21 utc | 10
There is a vast amount of data, which can be scientifically established as valid, which shows that the capitalist class and the fossil fuel companies are polluting the planet, to the detriment of society and a threat to generations unborn, in order to enhance the profitability of the capital they have invested
Yes, very true. There is also a vast amount of data and actual ruination which shows that the great Marxist–Leninist states are among the greatest polluters of all time. From Eastern Europe(USSR) to the Peoples Republic of China there are still plenty of contaminated no-go zones to attest to the benefits of all of that State managed property.

Posted by: john | Jul 16 2023 15:33 utc | 16

Posted by: bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:51 utc | 12

You seem to be implying that drawing attention to scientific fraud is “nitpicking” if it concerns a question or subject that’s “unimportant.”
I disagree. Maybe if it received more criticism, scientific fraud wouldn’t be so common.
Moreover, this forum provides ample opportunity for other posters to provide additional information and context or to otherwise fill in the gaps. Or one can simply ignore comments on matters that one deems “unimportant.”

Posted by: David Levin | Jul 16 2023 15:37 utc | 17

https://www.severe-weather.eu/global-weather/heatwave-europe-heat-dome-spain-italy-greece-summer-2023-mk/

The southern half of Europe was experiencing scorching heat this week, but a strengthening heat dome over the Mediterranean will soon worsen the situation. It will induce more extreme heat across the southern half of Europe in the following days. The strongest heatwave of the summer of 2023 continues and will bring even higher temperatures, reaching nearly +45 °C in Spain, Italy, and Greece.

Huge July heat-domes, this European scorcher and also the one over Death Valley, simply aren’t going anywhere. Watch them expand and intensify, in situ.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jul 16 2023 15:41 utc | 18

Posted by: bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:51 utc | 12

I would disagree that it’s pointless to discuss whether “climate change” is valid. It’s being used as a rationale for the destruction of farm animals in The Netherlands and elsewhere.

Posted by: David Levin | Jul 16 2023 15:45 utc | 19

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jul 16 2023 15:41 utc | 18
Just like we watched 45C heat domes in Spain in the 1940s then.
And, did you watch the 7 minute video with the info about hailstorms, witch hanging and the squashing of debate during the little ice age I posted for you in the last thread?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wcAy4sOcS5M&t=53s
It’s very enlightening.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 15:47 utc | 20

Oh, and, Zaragosa, Spain, 1935.
127F = 52.77C
https://twitter.com/TonyClimate/status/1680052533128200192/photo/1

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 15:52 utc | 21

July 11: Macro sends around 50 Storm Shadow (SCALP) missiles to Ukraine, at $850,000 each.
July 16: Putin announces nationalisation of Danone Russia. Danone Russia is worth around $1 billion.

Posted by: Passerby | Jul 16 2023 15:59 utc | 22

And just to pre-empt the next dogpile of statistical faeces before they get dumped on the barroom floor, let’s do US america too.
On July 15th 1936, the average temperature around the US was 96 degrees. Twelve states were over 110F, thirty states were over 100F, and all but one state was over 90F. Heat like that is far beyond the experience of modern Americans.. Climate hysteria is based on ignorance of past temperature records and current databending.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 16:10 utc | 23

stroller Norwegian
It is the height of human arrogance that you think you, we, and the corporate oligarchs are not causing changes to the climate. It is stunning to me that you play this little game. Ignoring that whole societies through history have been whipped out because they trash their environment. Do you really think spewing coal oil …and all the other crap we send into the air has no impact? That we have clear cut all major forest systems in the world. That we have damaged our water systems so badly that we now have transgendered fish. Maybe this is why the west has such an issue with sexuality. What forests we haven’t destroyed are being destroyed by massive fires world wide. This doesn’t even touch on the issue of population and war. My country is by far the worst when it comes to climate destruction . The amount the US military spews with its wars, bases, is more than any country in the world. Not to mention that every base is in the end a superfund sight. Unless you live in some kind of bubble or are under 15, you have been witness to environmental wreckage born of our own greed. Ask any farmer in the world if climate change is happening!

Posted by: Susan | Jul 16 2023 16:11 utc | 24

@2
musk wants $84 a year. not from me!

Posted by: paddy | Jul 16 2023 16:18 utc | 25

@5
the anthro caused climate zealots are running a religious cult.
their point is ghg will cause 1.5 degree Celsius increase which is like being cast in to hell bc we climate sinners won’t repent from a 20th century life style, and not kill ourself off.

Posted by: paddy | Jul 16 2023 16:25 utc | 26

Ask any farmer in the world if climate change is happening!
Posted by: Susan | Jul 16 2023 16:11 utc | 24

Ask any farmer in the world when climate change wasn’t happening. Never. Climatic change has been occurring for 4 billion years. It didn’t start when humans first burned down a forest or dug up some coal. The burning issue is whether human use of the fuels which enable modern societies which aren’t based on hard physical labour to exist, has been warming the surface for the last 150 years.
The data says not, but the govt. funded science institutions, say it has. And they engage in all sorts of twisty databending to prove it. So their outputs can be used by govt. paid propagandists to fool you into volunteering to live in the cold with less real food while paying higher taxes.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 16:32 utc | 27

bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:21 utc | 10
The „selfish capitalist class“ of West seems to be happily taking part in the fight against carbon dioxide and global warming. This is no surprise to me as IMHO all this stuff is just huge conspiracy and has nothing to do with real protection of nature.
Warming may occur indeed, but the reasoning it is caused by CO2 is pretty weak. There are more than few scientists proving the causality is opposite and the carbon dioxide is just released from oceans with rising temperatures. Also CO2 is not the most efficient green house gas at all, the major one is the water vapor. See e.g. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_house_gas (note the most of official clima sources just ignore water vapors, guess why ..)
Even if the carbon dioxide would be the main culprit of warming it is questionable the mankind has any significant influence on its concentration in atmosphere.
Anyone can check how the CO2 concentration changed during global covid lockdowns when the industrial production and so human CO2 emissions declined almost by 10%.
In fact the CO2 chart keeps rising without any glitch so to me it is hard proof the rise has no human origin and all this is just a scam. See e.g. http://www.co2levels.org
Supposing the whole CO2 fight is poor fake, the question is why to push this agenda so hard ?
To get rid of dependency on fossil rich adversaries (RF, Middle east) ?
To have strong & palatable reason to push social engineering in West societies ?
This is for another discussion.

Posted by: robie | Jul 16 2023 16:42 utc | 28

What did it achieve for the King Of Mars’s enterprise?
Posted by: DunGroanin | Jul 16 2023 13:26 utc | 2
He said it was only temporary while his tech team came up with a solution to stop AI scrapers, to stop, as he said, “The deathstar of AIs”, which, he has also said a few times,
he believes is the greatest threat to humanity.
So I am guessing now the solution has been found and implemented.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 16:44 utc | 29

The science says yes But I don’t need the science I have traveled extensively throughout the americas Asia and the South Pacific the people who live by the land know the farmers know.
Yes climate is always changing we are speeding the process up . Human usage is what is doing it. Forests are the cleaning tool as i said before we have clear cut most of our forests. We have destroyed our water with massive corporate farms . We are killing our oceans with Over fishing and pollution. Rivers run with the offering of our factories our oil industry and our military out put. Humans are an arrogant species who pretend their greed has no impact whole cultures have died because they do not maintain their environment. Most species have a a balance humans do not ,funny the one with the brain will wantonly kill anyone including the world, to serve it’s greed

Posted by: susan | Jul 16 2023 16:46 utc | 30

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 16:32 utc | 27
the data says yes, according to people all over the world, and the vast majority of scientists who work in the field, and in related fields. . but according to you, we should believe the fossil fuel companies and their shills. while you’re at it, defend defense contractors and bankers and other helpless victims who people also think are frauds who game the system.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 16 2023 16:48 utc | 31

Posted by: john | Jul 16 2023 15:33 utc | 16
Yes, very true. There is also a vast amount of data and actual ruination which shows that the great Marxist–Leninist states are among the greatest polluters of all time. From Eastern Europe(USSR) to the Peoples Republic of China there are still plenty of contaminated no-go zones to attest to the benefits of all of that State managed property.
LMFAOOOOO!!!!!!! Give us a list, please. I want a verified list of the favorite bogeyman of the John Birch descendant American/British/Auzzie right-wing; the famous NO-GO ZONES!!!! But instead of Blacks or Muslims in big cities, now apparently we’re talking about pollution sites due to FOSSIL FUEL EXTRACTION in the USSR and China….that allegedly make the BP Horizon, Niger Delta, Exxon Valdez, and large swathes of the US and Canada look like veritable National Parks, amirite? Or Bhopal? Or Central and South America?
C’mon, let’s have that list of uniquely bad Marxist-Leninist super-pollution sites that nobody can visit to this day. Eastern Europe, LOL.
P.S. That bevin doesn’t want to argue the science isn’t proof that there isn’t valid science let alone a vast amount of it. He’s making the socio-economic point that it’s capitalism driving AGW at its core.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 16:48 utc | 32

Posted by: robie | Jul 16 2023 16:42 utc | 28
there is not one scientist that “the causality is opposite”. Lindzen tried and failed miserably, and the one publicly released study the fossil fuel companies funded, using skeptical scientists, proved the opposite, which is why they haven’t funded anything comparable since.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 16 2023 16:50 utc | 33

Happy Sunday, b, and thank you for another Week in Review. Appreciate the Orlov post (which I first read about in the comments on the Ukraine thread). It’s always valuable to hear what Orlov has to say. Armstrong Economics mentioned Quebec so I had to post about it. Please tell me that this was written by a machine:
“Zelensky has destroyed Ukraine all for a land grab of territory that has historically been Russian for centuries. The hatred of Russians would only lead to genocide if Ukraine got its hands on the Donbas. Proof of that statement was the massacre of Russians in Odessa in 2014 which began the entire separatist movement. Quebec wanted to separate from Canada. They did not launch a civil war and begin bombing citizens in Quebec. The Donbas had a basic human right to decide their own fate while the Ukrainians did the same to separate from Russia.”
Actually, Quebec doesn’t anymore have that right to just decide it’s own fate but whatever. (The Canadian rules-based order: https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/quebec-referendum-1995). Who did or did not launch civil war? The Ukrainians? Little green men? Owners of language-producing software? (My money’s on that last one, under the influence of Orlov’s article.)

Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Jul 16 2023 16:51 utc | 34

@bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:21 utc | 10

I don’t care whether it is science or not and nor would any rational person.
There is a vast amount of data, which can be scientifically established as valid, which shows that the capitalist class and the fossil fuel companies are polluting the planet,

You first declare you don’t care if it is science and then you declare it scientifically established. That is an irrational position, in fact it is Doublethink Orwell style. ( doublethink: a simultaneous belief in two contradictory ideas )

Do you not realise that politics is of great importance in a world governed by selfish class interests?

Of course I do, but I do not confuse politics with science.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 16 2023 16:51 utc | 35

Posted by: john | Jul 16 2023 15:33 utc | 16
oh good you admit it’s real. an improvement over some posters on the subject.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 16 2023 16:53 utc | 36

Posted by: robie | Jul 16 2023 16:42 utc | 28
Supposing the whole CO2 fight is poor fake, the question is why to push this agenda so hard ?
To get rid of dependency on fossil rich adversaries (RF, Middle east) ?
To have strong & palatable reason to push social engineering in West societies ?
This is for another discussion.

We’ve come this far, let’s have it out in this discussion. The world is being re-ordered by the ineptitude of the western CO2 driven global warming fanatics and the solidity of the RF response to NATO wunderwaffe. The economic order is soon to be overturned by BRICS+ and SCO as mad emporer Joe dodders his way to the exit.
There coundn’t be a better time to get a few things straight about what matters and what doesn’t so far as the populations of the western nations being beaten over the head with “Climate!Crisis!” are concerned.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 16:55 utc | 37

thanks b…
you’ve provided a number of fascinating links i intend to read..
———–
kudos to @ GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 13:50 utc | 5 and @ bevin | Jul 16 2023 14:05 utc | 6
you’ve created an avalanche of comments on this ”topic” this morning and its impressive!! i haven’t really come to a position, but i resonate with a lot of what both of you are saying.. i like how norwegian articulates it – “do not confuse politics with science”… and yet, i find myself relating to what @ susan | Jul 16 2023 16:46 utc | 30 articulates…
so this is a question to gt stroller… do you think the viewpoint susan articulates @ 30 plays into this debate in any way, and if so, how do you think these conflicting points of view can be appreciated by all sides here? and finally, i do appreciate your viewpoint on all this that you’ve articulated here today.. thanks for all of that..

Posted by: james | Jul 16 2023 16:57 utc | 38

@robie | Jul 16 2023 16:42 utc | 28

Supposing the whole CO2 fight is poor fake, the question is why to push this agenda so hard ?

First, CO2 is not pollution, our atmosphere is starved of CO2, it has been many times higher in the past (so called ‘climate optima’).
To answer your question, CO2 is a bi-effect of energy production. The agenda is pushed hard by the people that want to control energy access and thus control people’s lives. It is the same people than gave you ‘covid’ and the war in Ukraine. Different methods, same goal.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 16 2023 17:00 utc | 39

@Norwegian | Jul 16 2023 17:00 utc | 39
But, more importantly. CO2 is an effect of temperature increase (not the other way around). The Earths climate is dominated by the Sun, which is a variable star with 22 year activity cycles. When the earth is warmed by the Sun, the oceans release CO2.
Much like a cold beer goes flat on a warm summer day.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 16 2023 17:02 utc | 40

OH NOOOOOOEES!! Another O/T MOAGR8CLIMB8DEEBAY8™®©
I’m anxiously awaiting the moment someone attempts to type a mathematical equation MoA comment box so as to once-and-for all debunk man made global warming, thus vindicating pure righteous always honest Exxon, Shell, BP, Chevron, Texaco (and apparently the evil Stalin and Mao too!) while at the same time putting thousands of rich, corrupt and powerful (or is it just conned into a false religion, I lose track?) research scientists and unpaid student interns/RAs to their rightful shame!
Let’s take bets! Don’t lose out. Someone crack the seal, break the ice, smash that bottle of cheap champagne on the hull and post that first maths equation!!!

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 17:05 utc | 41

LOL I don’t confuse politics with science. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnIXSJj0Vm8
Not even Exxon is dishonest enough to use that turn of phrase.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 17:07 utc | 42

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 16 2023 16:48 utc | 31
the data says yes, according to people all over the world, and the vast majority of scientists who work in the field, and in related fields.

Only after the databending and the application of wrongly parameterised models to the butchered data inputs.
The data downloaded direct from CERES, Earthshine project and International Satellite Cloud Climatology Project shows the warming was caused by an decrease in cloud cover, allowing more solar shortwave radiation into the surface, not the increase in CO2. Indeed the famous ‘heat trapping blanket’ of increased CO2 has allowed MORE outgoing longwave radiation through as time has gone on, not less. Study it for yourself instead of believing the people you don’t believe about anything else. (!).
https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4433/12/10/1297/htm
The theory is busted. They’re just not admitting it yet, because they can rely on the MSM to carry on promulgating the propaganda, and keep the skeptics off the airwaves.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 17:08 utc | 43

@24 susan
Ironic that your statement about human arrogance seems to miss the point that the world could be done in an instant with the human blight if an asteroid hit or a supervolcano erupted.
George Carlin repeatedly comes to mind when he said that the people who want to “heal the planet” are the most arrogant of all. Pray tell how we do this?
Furthermore, let me know if you can manage this without impacting the lower classes the most like the ones in China who now get to eat meat regularly after starving for much of the20th century. Are you going to be the one to tell them they can’t anymore?
World government is so pase.

Posted by: NemesisCalling | Jul 16 2023 17:12 utc | 44

My acquaintances come in two varieties.
The progressives, who like social change, even if it’s violent change, but do not accept climate change at all. These people do not stomach environmental changes very well.
And conservatives, who accept climate change and tend to see climate change as something you accept and adapt to, but prefer society stays the same.

Posted by: Passerby | Jul 16 2023 17:17 utc | 45

Caliman | Jul 16 2023 15:21 utc | 15–
Yes, the USSR had a flagrant disregard for the environment and its affects on people’s health. Today, the situation is 180 degrees opposite as Putin is a very aggressive hawk environmentally, cleaning it up, and expanding medical facilities to treat the people damaged by what was done–one of the greatest unknown aspects of his governance for which he and his team merits a Nobel annually.
As for climate change, Russia is very aware of its reality as it sees what it’s doing to its vast arctic region. Russia’s response is to adapt and try to mitigate its own carbon impact, particularly the wildfires in the taiga.
I was going to translate this recent meeting between Putin and Health Minister Mikhail Murashko that provides an excellent overview of Russia’s healthcare system but other events intervened. It’s worth the time for those interested. One of the reasons why Putin has such a high approval is because he genuinely cares for Russia and Russians unlike every Western leader relative to their nations and citizens.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 16 2023 17:21 utc | 46

@Susan | Jul 16 2023 16:11 utc | 24

stroller Norwegian
It is the height of human arrogance that you think you, we, and the corporate oligarchs are not causing changes to the climate. It is stunning to me that you play this little game.

I am sorry, but I am not playing any games. If you want to contribute to resolving the supposedly scientific question, please post scientific arguments. What you are posting is moral indignation based on ideology. That has nothing to do with science.
Your post confuses pollution (which there is a lot of) and ‘climate’. Even if you are fully ideologically convinced that ‘anthropogenic climate change’ is both real and significant, it is not a scientific argument. You will be hard pressed to find actual scientific arguments to support such a position, because they do not exist. But I encourage you to try as hard as you can. You represent a scientific claim, so the burden of proof is on you. I represent the null hypothesis, i.e. there is no measureable effect on human generated CO2 on climate.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 16 2023 17:23 utc | 47

bevin @ 6
You begin by conceding way too much to an ignoramus. It is not models, it is observation and measurement.. And there is no need to defend the data or any particular database. Any person who has lived any number of years is either wholly completely utterly obtuse , blindered,ideologically hypnotized – or they observe rapid change in their own life, in their own immediate environment.
The environment we all share and enjoy would not be here for us if natural change occurred at the current speed and scale. Any who would get off the computer, quit reading propaganda, take a walk would know as much.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 16 2023 17:23 utc | 48

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 17:05 utc | 41
post that first maths equation!!!

Let’s see how it goes with the ideal gas law.
PV = nRT
Where:
P = pressure
V = volume
n = number of moles of gas
R = the gas constant
T = temperature (K)

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 17:32 utc | 49

When I lived in Washington state I kayaked every day over time I started seeing plastics tubes lining the shoreline, acres of PVC tubes. After a while nets on top appeared then large nets over the fields of PVC. Then I watched as our sanddollar beds disappeared the crabs and flat fish went as well then of course the birds because their food source was gone. A large group of us went after the source of this. Shellfish industry growing geoDucks. Look it up one of the more bazar shellfish out there. We sued and I got first hand experience in fighting industry and the fake US government.from physical threats to stollen boats. We won hands down, not once but twice yet they are still killing Puget sound. They just ignore the courts. Puget Sound was one of the most bio diverse places now it is a shadow of itself. Guess who the shell fish industry showered with wealth. The Democratic Party Sierra club. And WWF, guess what all the pretend environmentalists said. These people just don’t want tideland owners to make money, these are organic, they love the environment . Puget sound is losing it’s salmon run because of warm rivers and lack of food for young salmon. The Orcas are losing because of lack of food. The wintering bird populations are not coming back. Yah humans don’t impact the environment I bet the people of Vietnam,Laos and Cambodia Nigeria Brazil Haiti Congo and of course the native peoples around the world might beg to differ that climate change has nothing to do with human greed.

Posted by: Susan | Jul 16 2023 17:32 utc | 50

twatter is still locked which is fine with me, it saves me time from reading Clownworld and Crazy Clips every night. LOL
“Ask any farmer in the world when climate change wasn’t happening. Never. Climatic change has been occurring for 4 billion years.”
Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 16:32 utc | 27
This.

Posted by: nathan in WA US | Jul 16 2023 17:33 utc | 51

@susan 30
I would defend the species in so far as all of the mentioned is pressed upon the restless many by the prosperous few.
Certainly, its not that simple in reality. But we as well know how force as the supreme power makes things happen against better judgement.

Posted by: AG | Jul 16 2023 17:34 utc | 52

Michael Hudson: Debt, Empires, and Oligarchs + A More Perfect State
2 part interview with Professor Michael Hudson (84 yrs young & going strong) ~ July 10, 2023
Part 1 Debt, Empires, and Oligarchs (Part 1/2)
“>https://youtu.be/XyybzneS0To?t=15
00:00:16 Who is Michael Hudson
00:16:47 Who does the economy work for?
00:22:15 Redlining and the Aspiring Rentier Class
00:26:25 Fantasy of the 1%
00:33:00 Real estate always rises
00:37:40 How governments and CIA betray the people
00:43:55 Rhetoric vs reality in the demagogue
00:45:45 Antiquity, Oligarchs, and Debt
01:01:12 Debt cancellation
01:10:29 Debt free life
01:14:31 Financial capital’s destructive force
01:19:32 What oligarchs do
01:23:36 Depopulation agendas
=======
Part 2 A More Perfect State – Dr. Michael Hudson (Part 2/2) ~1hr 24mins
“>https://youtu.be/pSBvXCwUQYQ?t=60
00:01:01 Modern monetary theory
00:10:03 Devaluation of the currency
00:20:52 A functional government or a functional press
00:26:25 Only revolution cancels debt
00:29:28 What follows collapse?
00:39:36 Public Pensions and Ideological Suicide
00:50:26 Worker Ownership
01:01:49 Evolution or Revolution?
01:15:29 A good billionaire?
01:20:33 Closing thoughts
===
===
About Hudson:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Hudson_(economist)

Posted by: Toby C | Jul 16 2023 17:38 utc | 53

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 16 2023 17:21 utc | 46
I bet you sleep underneath a big Putin poster. Jesus Christ, the way you are dickriding on Putin is embarrassing!

Posted by: v | Jul 16 2023 17:40 utc | 54

@Susan | Jul 16 2023 17:32 utc | 50

I bet the people of Vietnam,Laos and Cambodia Nigeria Brazil Haiti Congo and of course the native peoples around the world might beg to differ that climate change has nothing to do with human greed.

Betting is playing games. Science is about observation, forming hypotheses and trying to disprove them with verifiable facts. What remains is scientific theory.
Since you mentioned Vietnam and Laos: I just came home from Thailand and Laos. I can assure you the people I know there have never mentioned ‘climate change’ to me.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 16 2023 17:43 utc | 55

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 16 2023 17:21 utc | 46
As for climate change, Russia is very aware of its reality as it sees what it’s doing to its vast arctic region.

I hesitate to call out both Bevin and Karlov1 on the same thread, but let’s look at the data and see how much merit there is to this.
https://twitter.com/prairiepatriot7/status/1679873878318022656
Climate has changed so radically over the past 40+ years that the amount of snow covering the northern hemisphere has gone from 24.8 million sq km in 1980 to only 24.9 million sq km in 2022…
The twitter poster’s bio:
PhD snow hydrology ❄️
Professional Biologist (RP Bio, P Biol) 🐟
Physical Geography Prof 🌎
Saskatchewan farm boy
Click the link to see the data for yourself.
Putin may well pay LIP SERVICE to global warming, because as we know, it doesn’t do to disturb your enemy when it is making a mistake.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 17:44 utc | 56

Any who would get off the computer, quit reading propaganda, take a walk would know as much.
Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 16 2023 17:23 utc | 48
I walk over 24 miles a week. I have spent hundreds of days hiking. I walk rain or shine, and have done so my whole life, since my young days.
THEREFORE I remember some of the nastier days.
I ALSO remember some of the snowier years, as I tend to not enjoy hiking in it too much.
And I would say, it is actually people who stay shut in during the cold and wet months, and only go outside during the warm months, who will tend towards a bias of ” its definitely getting hotter”.
I dont think so, but FURTHERMORE, Global Warming says the changes would be imperceivable as far as heat, but it would be the rising water, desertification, disappearing glaciers etc, that would let us know it was happening, YET its supporters claim you can just FEEL how much hotter it is. Uh huh. Yeah, dude.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 17:45 utc | 57

If you want to know how seriously the Russian state takes global climate hissyfits, count up the number of wind turbines and solar panels adorning Russian landscapes and get back to me.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 17:48 utc | 58

Ah nemesis
Sad to see you use the old western trop about the poor starving Chinese who have been around much longer than any of the white westerners. They survived without meat and many still do. Actually the massive meat industry in china is often the spreader of sickness
I was brought up to the “better eat your dinner because kids in China only get one grain of rice for dinner. Having spent time living in China as well as traveling into the depths of china in the 80s China was poor but not like the US today with tent cities every where. I never me a starving Chinese person, even the people in the mountains on the boarder of Russia who had never seen a white person. Needless to say another form of climate pollution is factory farming. IT is cruel causes massive water pollution as well as methane pollution

Posted by: susan | Jul 16 2023 17:48 utc | 59

A Scott Ritter Investigation: Agent Zelensky – Part 1
~July 10, 2023; 36 minutes
Youtube
https://youtu.be/HLeBb6hPUC8
Rumble
https://rumble.com/v2zs3r0-a-scott-ritter-investigation-agent-zelensky-part-1.html
=======
=======
“Truth is coming & it can’t be stopped.” Edward Snowden
=======
“We repeat with Confucius— return good for good, for evil—justice.” KH

Posted by: Toby C | Jul 16 2023 17:50 utc | 60

Posted by: oldhippie | Jul 16 2023 17:23 utc | 48
The environment we all share and enjoy would not be here for us if natural change occurred at the current speed and scale. Any who would get off the computer, quit reading propaganda, take a walk would know as much.

I’ve climbed all the 375 2000’+ hills of England over the years since I was 6 in 1972 many of them several times.
Has it got warmer? I’d be annoyed if it hadn’t. The 70’s had a low solar cycle and some bad winters. I camped out in them.
Is the change since unprecedented? No. The warming from 1915 to 1945 showed the same rate of increase (until the databenders changed it).
Has the warming since 1980 been caused by more CO2? No. The data downloaded direct from CERES, Earthshine project and International Satellite Cloud Climatology Project shows the warming was caused by an decrease in cloud cover, allowing more solar shortwave radiation into the surface, not the increase in CO2. Indeed the famous ‘heat trapping blanket’ of increased CO2 has allowed MORE outgoing longwave radiation through as time has gone on, not less. Study it for yourself instead of believing the people you don’t believe about anything else. (!).
https://www.mdpi.com/2073-4433/12/10/1297/htm

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 17:59 utc | 61

Posted by: james | Jul 16 2023 16:57 utc | 38
so this is a question to gt stroller… do you think the viewpoint susan articulates @ 30 plays into this debate in any way, and if so, how do you think these conflicting points of view can be appreciated by all sides here? and finally, i do appreciate your viewpoint on all this that you’ve articulated here today.. thanks for all of that..

Thanks James. I try hard to keep debate on this subject factual, rational, and free from rancour, even when others don’t manage it and start calling me an idiot etc.
My answer to Susan @30 is that if we resolved the CO2 hysteria, and stopped wasting resources on corporate giant windfarms and solar farms, the taxpayer would have a lot more cash to spend on helping to solve the genuine environmental issues that also concern her.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 18:06 utc | 62

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 17:59 utc | 61
Decrease in cloud cover could be die to decrease in forest fire acreage. In the mid 1960s, the USFS started a campaign of watchtowers and fire response teams, and acreage burned per year went down fivefold in a few years, and stayed that way.
34% of the USA land area is forested.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 18:08 utc | 63

“A premeditated crime”: historian Aleksandr Dyukov on the causes and consequences of the Volyn massacre (RT na Russkom, Svyatoslav Knyazev & Yelizaveta Komarova, July 11, 2023 — in Russian)

In Poland July 11 is considered the Day of Remembrance for the victims of the genocide committed by Ukrainian Nationalists against the citizens of the republic. 80 years ago, OUN-UPA militants, as part of the Volyn massacre, attacked about 100 settlements in Western Ukraine where ethnic Poles lived. The crimes committed by the Nationalists on this day are the most famous, although later atrocities of the OUN-UPA militants were no smaller in scale. In Soviet times, little was said about these crimes, fearing an aggravation of interethnic relations. Nowadays, official Kiev prevents the study of the remains of the victims of the murders, that’s why, according to historians, the Volyn massacre is still poorly studied from a scientific point of view. Director of the Historical Memory foundation Aleksandr Dyukov, in an interview with RT, speaks about the causes and consequences of the massacres in Volyn, as well as the impact of those events on modern politics.
What gave rise to Ukrainians’ hatred for the Poles, which led to the Volyn massacre? Did its roots go back to the distant past, or did it arise immediately before the Second World War?
It was a premeditated event. The leadership of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) consistently instilled hatred towards the Poles in the Ukrainian population and planned bloody ethnic cleansing in advance. Ideological preparations for the Volyn massacre went on for at least the entire 1930s on the territory of the Ukraine. Already in the mid-1930s, OUN organizations were engaged in arson of Polish houses in order to expel Poles from certain territories.
In 1938, even before the outbreak of World War II, the military program of the OUN was formulated, which spoke of the need for bloody ethnic cleansing against the Polish population in the lands that are now considered to be Western Ukraine. These ideas were to be put into practice in 1939—at the beginning of World War II, the Nazis planned to carry out the extermination of the Polish intelligentsia and Jews on the territory of Western Ukraine with the help of Ukrainian Nationalists. But the additional protocol of the Non-Aggression Pact signed between the USSR and Germany transferred Western Ukraine to the Soviet Union, so the plan to use Ukrainian Nationalists was not implemented.
In 1941, the Nationalists issued a new regulatory document—“The struggle and activities of the OUN during the war.” It described the algorithm of actions of the OUN fighters after the German attack on the Soviet Union. It mentioned, among other things, ethnic cleansing of the Poles. Although, Ukrainian Nationalists planned to kill them after the massacre of the Jews. Similar plans were recorded in other documents of the OUN. Thus, we can say with confidence that the Volyn massacre was not an accident. It was a consistently premeditated crime.
Who were the participants in the Volyn massacre? Most often, members of the OUN-UPA are mentioned, but some sources claim that Ukrainian national units of the SS also participated in it. Is it correct to call the members of the UPA themselves Hitlerite collaborators?
The OUN, of course, interacted with the Nazis, although in late 1941 – early 1942 these ties at the organizational level were severed at the initiative of the German side. Ukrainian Nationalists did not like this very much, and by 1943, by the beginning of the Volyn massacre, these ties were restored. Therefore, members of the OUN and UPA, no doubt, can be called collaborators.
Members of the OUN and UPA were the main striking force of the Volyn massacre. The vast majority of people were killed by representatives of these organizations. Against the background of the murders, the UPA was mobilizing local peasants, who were tied to the UPA with blood by being involved in the massacres. In 1944, formations belonging to the SS division Galicia also participated in the killings. In a number of cases, massacres were carried out in cooperation between UPA detachments and units of the SS division Galicia. And yet, I repeat, it was the OUN-UPA militants who committed the bulk of the murders on their own.
What was the direct cause of the Volyn massacre? Was there a specific event or was it a whole set of circumstances?
The destruction of the Poles was a pre-formulated plan. That is, in any case, Ukrainian Nationalists would have sooner or later begun this bloody ethnic cleansing. At the end of 1942, the OUN leadership realized that they were losing control on the ground. From the point of view of the German occupation administration, it was illegal. At the same time, raid formations of Soviet partisans began to penetrate into Western Ukraine. The local civilian population—both Poles and Ukrainians—began to help the Soviet partisans.
The OUN leadership was afraid that the Soviet partisans would seize actual control over the territories. It was at that time that the Nationalists launched the rapid development of the Ukrainian Insurgent Army (UPA). It was formed, firstly, on the basis of small OUN detachments already operating in the forests—the so-called boyivkas—and secondly, on the basis of units of the Hitlerite Auxiliary Police. In addition, mobilization was carried out. This force had to be directed to some kind of vigorous activity and tied with blood. That’s when they decided to bring back the old plans, hitting the Poles. In addition to hatred motives, this also undermined the mobilization base of the Soviet partisans.
From what moment, from a historical point of view, did the Volyn massacre begin? Why did it peak on July 11–12, 1943?
The first mass attacks and killings took place in January–February 1943. From that moment on, we can talk about the beginning of the Volyn massacre. And July 11 is a symbolic date that is used in modern Poland. Perhaps the attacks that took place on this day are simply the most famous. But the massacres went before and continued later. The destruction of the Polish civilian population did not decline by the summer—on the contrary, it only became more active. In a word, July 11 is a formal date, it does not reflect the full scale of the tragedy of the Volyn massacre.
Historical sources describe the monstrous atrocities of the UPA militants in relation to the civilian population—to women, children, the elderly. What was the reason for such cruelty?
The task of the Volyn massacre was to organize such terror that the Polish population would flee from the territory of Western Ukraine. The principle “the Ukraine for Ukrainians” was put into practice. The atrocities committed by the Nationalists were a method of terror, a method of intimidation, forcing people to flee.
How did the Soviet partisans act during the Volyn massacre? Did they provide assistance to the victims of Ukrainian Nationalists?
Poles terrorized by Ukrainian Nationalists turned out to be natural allies of the Soviet partisans. While on the territory of Belarus there were clashes between Soviet partisans and units of the Polish Home Army, in Western Ukraine cooperation was established between Soviet partisans and units of the Volyn division of the Home Army. For Polish villages, the arrival of Soviet partisans was a lifesaver. In turn, the partisans could count on the support of the Poles. The principle “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” applied.
How did the Volyn massacre end?
Murders of Poles by Ukrainian Nationalists continued even after the arrival of Soviet troops in Western Ukraine. The Volyn massacre was ended for good by the exchange of population between the Ukrainian USSR and Poland in 1944–1946. The bulk of the Polish population of Western Ukraine was moved to Poland, and a significant part of the Ukrainian population of Poland to Western Ukraine.
Estimates of the number of victims of the Volyn massacre vary greatly: from several tens of thousands to hundreds of thousands of dead. Which numbers do you think are closest to the truth?
Here you need to understand that there are no statistics that would reflect reality, and there never was. Any data in this case is estimated, because no record of those killed by either side was kept. Historians give different estimates: from 60 thousand to 200 thousand killed Poles. In reality, we are talking, in all likelihood, about 80–100 thousand killed. I personally am of this opinion. In any case, this is a huge number of victims. And it is necessary to understand that a significant part of those killed were not just civilians, but women, children, and the elderly. That is, people who obviously did not pose any threat and who were killed on a basis of their ethnicity to cause terror and create an atmosphere of horror.

Posted by: S | Jul 16 2023 18:12 utc | 64

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 18:08 utc | 63
It may well be a factor over land, along with clean air laws improving particulate removal from smokestacks etc. BUT those particulates don’t make it far out to sea to act as cloud condensation nuclei, and 70% of Earth’s surface is ocean. So there is likely a spaceweather factor at play too.
The most active cycles in the solar record going back through thousands of years of proxy radionuclide records were from 1920 to 2010. Although the change in total solar irradiance (the only measure used by the IPCC when assessing the solar effect on climate – another fraud) is small, it’s effect is amplified by the stronger solar wind associated with more active cycles reducing the number of cosmic rays making it into the inner solar system. So that’s reduced the number of cloud condensation nuclei over ocean and land as well as the reduced burned area on land you mentioned.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 18:18 utc | 65

The climate change deniers seem to me to be the very same deniers of Covid and it’s damages…”it’s just the flu…”
“it’s just the weather…”
You think I’d know who’s post to skip by now~

Posted by: spamned | Jul 16 2023 18:20 utc | 66

Thanks to everyone at the MoA bar for your time and effort invested in getting to grips with the important issue of climate and energy.
Drinks are on me.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 18:21 utc | 67

You think I’d know who’s post to skip by now~
Posted by: spamned | Jul 16 2023 18:20 utc | 66
Take as many boosters as you want. Pfizer loves you.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 18:22 utc | 68

Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 16:48 utc | 32
Give us a list, please
Well, there’s Lake Karachay, but yeah, I probably exaggerated a bit. I see tourists can visit the Chernobyl Exclusion Zone.
Otherwise, the extent of Soviet era pollution(of all kinds) is well documented. It’s extensive. Chinese, ditto.
C’mon, let’s have that list of uniquely bad Marxist-Leninist super-pollution sites that …
‘among the greatest polluters’ said I, point being that even Socialist land management has a very bad record when it comes to the environment.

Posted by: john | Jul 16 2023 18:23 utc | 69

pretzelattack | Jul 16 2023 16:48 utc | 31
you prolly believe that covid vaccines work and were safe!
science is not appeal to authority funded by politics!
there are numerous other sources of climate trends, most natural, that do not excuse destroying capital.
and….. even were antropod activity a culprit, nothing foisted as solutions will make a difference, the trends are not so close to levels of co2!
they will make everyone a climate puritan or they go to a mythic climate hel
dunking ponds and witch trials for the earth!

Posted by: paddy | Jul 16 2023 18:29 utc | 70

Jul 16 2023 18:12 utc | 64
a faction of the upa was operating in eastern donbas and killed nikolai vutatin in apr 1944.
vutatin was commander of the vorenezh front at kursk and was driving westward through donbas…..
poland eastward has been a long standing, bloody ethnic conflict….. !
raw material for the cia

Posted by: paddy | Jul 16 2023 18:37 utc | 71

I took ONE vaxx: the J&J…
I continue to mask and stay out of crowds indoors…
Disabled immunocompromised autoimmune folks are being euthanized, but the joke is;
there is no “HERD IMMUNITY”…our governments perfectly willing to disable and kill us by repeated Covid infections–I am watching my neighbors and friends develop (WHAT COULD IT BE??) health issues, many have passed MONTHS after their “mild” Covid infections.
It’s cumulative, folks…even a ‘mild’ infection causes vascular damage…BRAIN DAMAGE included (have you seen the actuary reports on deaths 16-49?? our life expectancy decreasing by YEARS) I am gobsmacked that folks cannot see what is happening all around them…
and that includes climate change…it’s f***ing obvious but de-nile is a long long long river here on MOA where I expect a little bit of intellectual competence.
Stupid humans.

Posted by: spamned | Jul 16 2023 18:48 utc | 72

Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 16:48 utc | 32
Posted by: john | Jul 16 2023 18:23 utc | 69
I don’t know why I am getting into this fight, but Semipalatink, – aka “the polygon” and the Aral Sea come to mind. The West has created plenty of problems as well, so please don’t think I’m trying to lay blame solely on the former USSR. Humans suck. I am a human. Therefore I suck. Unfortunately, at the moment I am not ready to take matters into my own hands. Hopefully some benevolent overload will do me the favor.

Posted by: lex talionis | Jul 16 2023 18:53 utc | 73

Tom_Q_Collins:
You want to compare Chernobyl with Three Mile Island?
You want to compare the Aral Sea disaster with anything in the “west”?
You want to compare the air pollution of East Germany to the West? Of Soviet era Moscow to current Moscow? Of communist era Czechoslovakia to then Austria and Germany and the current republics … etc.?
Compare the fuel efficiency and pollution of Soviet cars, machinery, ships and subs, etc. with the western equivalents of the same era?
You are of course right that there’s been tremendous pollution under market economies; but socialism was even worse because the potential brakes natural to capitalism (for example, that owners like to preserve the quality of their resources for selfish reasons) did not apply and it was all about meeting short term needs of the nation, the environment be damned.

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 16 2023 18:57 utc | 74

It’s always a meltdown of insults, and “omg its science!” and “look around, its obvious!” With these people.
Have you accepted Global Warming as real? Do you confess your sin of existence? Will you wear this mask to show your pious obedience, and belief in science?

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 18:59 utc | 75

I took ONE vaxx: the J&J…
Posted by: spamned | Jul 16 2023 18:48 utc | 72
Why are you denying science? The science says you need to have taken at least four boosters by now. Do you not care about the immunocompromised? Do you not have faith the boosters are safe and effective.
What do you think the damned of science denialists will think if you do not lead by example? How can you save the planet, if you do not do as instructed by the protectors of the planet, scientists?

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 19:03 utc | 76

Bevin #4 Kaspersky , decent VPN, from usOfa, no problems with RT

Posted by: paxmark1 | Jul 16 2023 19:08 utc | 77

Posted by: spamned | Jul 16 2023 18:20 utc | 66
This is not about denying climate change per se, it does happen all the time and there were already much higher and
much lower temperatures than we have now.
The point is whether the change is really human induced as is officially pushed or if it is just natural phenomenon which we can’t avoid anyway.
The incredibly weak theory of “human induced change” is the only reason why we are supposed to dramatically change our lives in decades to follow and to allow spending huge money for … fighting CO2.
Without that, it would be wiser to invest in to adaptation to new conditions.
Note the whole thing is not about protecting nature, cleaning rivers, making greener cities etc.
It is mainly fight with carbon dioxide which in fact helps to make Earth greener.
See e.g. nasa.gov (2016)
From a quarter to half of Earth’s vegetated lands has shown significant greening over the last 35 years largely due to rising levels of atmospheric carbon dioxide …
And surprise, surprise “Greening of the Earth Mitigates Surface Warming” again according nasa.gov (2020)
So perhaps Earth may use CO2 as negative feedback to cope with rise of temperatures (just my speculation of course).

Posted by: robie | Jul 16 2023 19:35 utc | 78

nathan in WA US | Jul 16 2023 17:33 utc | 51

twatter is still locked which is fine with me, it saves me time from reading Clownworld and Crazy Clips every night. LOL

Metoo. And Catturd2.
I really miss my morning, first go-to on twitter.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 16 2023 19:39 utc | 79

LOL so we have Chernobyl (not related in any way to fossil fuel extraction or normal pollution) and the drying up of the Aral Sea (also nothing at all to do with fossil fuel extraction or normal pollution and also not fully understood).
Look at the Niger Delta or Bhopal. Or even the slag pits in West Texas, Canada or the Middle East. Venezuela isn’t even reporting spills anymore due to heavy US sanctions. That’s the kind of POLLUTION I’m talking about. Hell, I could even point out that while certain whiners always bring up China (or the USSR laughably still) there is ample evidence that the US and other industrial western powers emitted the vast majority of air pollution up until very recently.
Again, I the post to which I responded said: “Yes, very true. There is also a vast amount of data and actual ruination which shows that the great Marxist–Leninist states are among the greatest polluters of all time. From Eastern Europe(USSR) to the Peoples Republic of China there are still plenty of contaminated no-go zones to attest to the benefits of all of that State managed property.”
And when I asked for examples or a list, I got “Chernobyl (a nuclear accident)!!!” I was talking about “normal” pollution here, folks. The kind that is either acceptable to the polluter and forced down the population’s throat, or the kind that is simply the ongoing cost of doing business. I’m not talking about natural disasters or

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 20:04 utc | 80

^natural disasters or major industrial ACCIDENTS (and Bhopal was far from just an accident). If that were the case I could name about 15 major oil spills most of which perpetrated on nature by the US and Western Europeans.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 20:06 utc | 81

I think this comment hits the point l, perhaps inadvertently (?),with the following
“ … Human usage is what is doing it. Forests are the cleaning tool as i said before we have clear cut most of our forests. We have destroyed our water with massive corporate farms . We are killing our oceans with Over fishing and pollution. Rivers run with the offering of our factories our oil industry and our military out put. Humans are an arrogant species who pretend their greed has no impact whole cultures have died because they do not maintain their environment. Most species have a a balance humans do not ,funny the one with the brain will wantonly kill anyone including the world, to serve it’s greed
Posted by: susan | Jul 16 2023 16:46 utc | 30”
THAT is the primary issue in my lifetime. – 60 now – can’t swim in the rivers can’t swim on the beaches. Food is full of pesticides. Pharma products in the food and water cycle.
Endless growing empire of highly processed foods and associated murderous meat farms. Cutting down of the forests so MaccyD keeps paying ever more dividends. Same for the whole Food Industrial Complex. Shit sugars in our foods. Palm plantations in the tropics. Ever seen what happens when a palm forest dies? It’s monoculture; just stumps standing, the ground around fallow by its planting.
Fish and Oceans destroyed by mass hoovering mega ships. Killing everything just to provide processed pet food!
THAT is the REAL SHIT.
In that context Big Oil is just another diversion. Xtinction Rebellion and other high profile, coordinated world wide campaigns designed to keep us divided and fighting between ourselves. Just like all the old religious schisms . And you get Gretta The elfin saviour princess! A Hollywood story ready made.
That level of campaigning requires planning and FUNDING and political control. Only Big Oil and their bedfellows has that level of money and resources. Only the WEF types have that level of worldwide networking and media message control.
So ask ourselves WHY?
doh, follow the money. It will get new Saviour Complex Collective Wasters a reason to give their slave masters what they desire. New streams of income!! And wars for resources they can’t have any more because they put their flag on distant lands centuries ago!
Bingo. Call it some saviourish name. Say a New Deal. Put a Green in there and the new corporate fascists have a whitewash and carts Blanche to keep us smug slaves handing everything over to them and our children and grand children indentured from childhood.
Fighting oil is playing THEIR game. Fake science is how they do it. Hang any rationality, logic, data and actual fucking Science. Just keep building and pushing the Emotional Buttons.
Have a good life! Don’t lie to yourself. And don’t be emotionally button pushed. How hard is that?

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jul 16 2023 20:06 utc | 82

It seems as if the deniers of realities regarding the climate haven´t heard of scientific consensus.
But anyhow, thank you bevin,susan, pretzelattack and karlof1, and others who trust the science for your answers,they will be very useful in other discussions on social medias.
It would be very interesting to hear your suggestions for “ what is to be done”.
I´ll recommend the deniers to go to Global Warming and Climate Change skepticism examined (skepticalscience.com) if you are really interested in getting answers to your questions.

Posted by: Northern Eve | Jul 16 2023 20:08 utc | 83

My notes from reading “Unsettled” by Steven Koonin (2021) – although you really need to see the graphs as well. I highly recommend this book. It is as clear as anything I have ever found. Each bullet point roughly corresponds to a chapter.

* Atmospheric CO2 is definitely rising, and humans are now contributing to that in a measurable way
* Atmospheric CO2 itself is only one of the inputs to global warming, and apparently not a major one (<10% incl. equivalents)
* Baseline fluctuations of CO2 (sources, flows, sinks) dwarf the human contribution
* Baseline fluctuations of global temperature dwarf the human contribution (and CO2 contribution)
* Local temperature effects are often conflated with global temperature effects
* Baseline fluctuations in glaciers and ocean levels dwarf the human contribution (and CO2 contribution)
* The impact of CO2 on climate is not well measured, understood or modelled - as yet
* Models for temperature, sea level, glacial ice are not consistent with each other or the historical record - as yet
* There is a reluctance to admit or frankly discuss the uncertainty in climate science for reasons unknown
* There are definite cases of cherry-picking and distorting data in official sources
* Media summaries and political rhetoric are even more distorted from the underlying science
* There are probably much better investments for humanity than CO2 reduction at this point
* Research into and measurement of the climate is notable as being one of these

I once had the privilege of attending a debate between Tim Flannery (The Future Eaters) and Bjorn Lomborg (The Skeptical Environmentalist) on climate. Tim quickly fell back to ideology, (paraphrasing) “It doesn’t matter if it’s true, it’s the RIGHT thing to believe in.” I also had a close friend that was a senior scientist for our government and felt the science was flawed, but he could not speak publicly and keep his job.

Posted by: PeeDee | Jul 16 2023 20:11 utc | 84

GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 16:32 utc | 27
Ask any farmer in the world when climate change wasn’t happening
Ask any farmer in the world if the climate is warming and he’ll answer, ‘yes.’
Conditions for growing papayas, bananas, and avocados are always more conducive in southern Italy. Agriculture that kicked in only about 20 years ago.
Wine growers and olive oil producers feel the heat and are concerned. Again, these are folks who work outside, close to nature, year after year.
The wine growers in Mosel, on the other hand, are psyched. Their growing seasons are growing, as is their production.

Posted by: john | Jul 16 2023 20:12 utc | 85

@Bevin
RT works in the UK using this link, maybe it’ll work for you?
RT

Posted by: Some Random Passerby | Jul 16 2023 20:14 utc | 86

@ Metoo. And Catturd2.
I really miss my morning, first go-to on twitter.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jul 16 2023 19:39 utc | 79
– it’s probably a cache issue. I have been able to get back though some open tabs which were the last posts and then clicking on the @ name. That goes to the home page. Doing a new window search goes to the log in page.
Hope that helps.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jul 16 2023 20:21 utc | 87

I´ll recommend the deniers to go to Global Warming and Climate Change skepticism examined (skepticalscience.com) if you are really interested in getting answers to your questions.
Posted by: Northern Eve | Jul 16 2023 20:08 utc | 83
Does it even attempt to explain why all the alarmist “scientific” predictions of doom failed over the past few decades, and NONE came true?
Just like Christians, always insisting we are in end times, and the rapture is coming “soon”. I have heard that for thirty years too.
Will one believer even admit that they thought sea levels would be at least 10cm higher by now?
Of course not, none of you will admit you sat by, and argued for years, or even decades, seeped in anger and hatred those who denied your faith. And you were sure, your god of science would manifest, and judgement would befall evil, wasteful, foolish mankind, and they would repent once the sea levels had risen, and their farms turned to desert.
Oh yes, 20 years ago you were all sure we would be living in the hells preached from the pulpit of ‘science” by now…
…and it didn’t happen. But did you lose faith!? No! Heresy! Instead, you started to claim your book of Revelations, the global warming doom computer models, was not to be taken literally. You rebranded, from “global warming” to “climate change” so any weather event could then be proof of your beliefs. And then from “Climate Change” to “Climate Science”, because if it has science in its name, it must be scientific!

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 20:23 utc | 88

->Compare the fuel efficiency and pollution of Soviet cars, machinery, ships and subs, etc. with the western equivalents of the same era?<- This just has to be a joke. Where's the data comparing GAZ, Lada or Volga to Chrysler, AMC and Jaguar for the equivalent models and years? Ships and subs? Why not airplanes? But where's the efficiency data? Because I'll bet you my mortgage that what we'll find is either one of two things (or both): 1) The "west" inclusive of the US, Canada, Western Europe emitted an order of magnitude more pollution than the USSR over the same amount of time and/or 2) All of the data points to rough equivalencies in terms of one-to-one efficiencies of cars, planes, boats, machines, etc.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 20:25 utc | 89

@Northern Eve | Jul 16 2023 20:08 utc | 83

It seems as if the deniers of realities regarding the climate haven´t heard of scientific consensus.

What is it with you people who have to turn to name calling? Do you not have the confidence in yourself to argue your case?
Again: There is no such thing as ‘scientific consensus’. Science is not determined by counting of hands. Consensus belongs in politics.

I´ll recommend the deniers to go to Global Warming and Climate Change skepticism examined (skepticalscience.com) if you are really interested in getting answers to your questions.

After repeating your name calling you are referring to the fraudulent skepticalscience.com (SKS) who is anything but skeptical, created by the cartoonist John Cook who likes to dress in a SS uniform and take pictures of himself? This was all well known a decade ago, link below.

Threats from the University of Queensland

I think you should reconsider your name calling and your ‘scientific’ sources.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 16 2023 20:30 utc | 90

Tony Heller, at
Realclimatescience.com
Rips it all to shreds. Every time the media declares record heat, he proves it isn’t.
Everytime the media declares “worst weather event evar!” He proves it isnt.
His credentials. Here are a few of them:
BS Geology, Arizona State University
Masters Electrical Engineering, Rice University
Boston University Geology
Northern Arizona University Computer Science
Colorado State University Computer Science
University of New Mexico Geochemistry
Lifelong environmentalist.
I testified at my first Congressional hearing in support of Wilderness in 1972.
I fought for the Clean Air and Water acts
Wilderness Ranger Cibola National Forest, New Mexico
Wilderness Ranger Santa Fe National Forest, New Mexico
Currently battling the City of Boulder, Colorado to stop development on the South Boulder Wetlands
Full time cyclist for all my local transportation, for the past 40 years
Member of The CO2 Coalition
Teacher.
Science teacher, Athletic Director and Soccer Coach at Oak Creek Ranch School, Arizona
Math teacher at Phoenix Country Day School
Substitute teacher at Murphy School District, Phoenix Arizona
Computer instructor at Tomball College, Texas
Geologist.
Geothermal research at Los Alamos National Labs
Oil shale research at Los Alamos National Labs
Thermodynamic research of methane hydrates at Los Alamos National Labs
Volcano research at Los Alamos National Labs
Safety Analysis Report for the Permian Basin DOE nuclear waste disposal site
Volunteer curator Arizona Mineral Museum
Electrical Engineer
Compaq/SGI MIPS consortium design team
Power PC design team IBM/Apple/Motorola (Used in most game consoles over the last three decades, and PowerMacs)
Sandia Labs computer architect
Sandia Labs representative to Al Gore’s Bankers Trust key escrow consortium
Cyrix Media GX microprocessor design team manager
Raycer Graphics OpenGL graphics processor verification lead
Design manager Hitachi/ST SH5 microprocessor
Verification lead MemoryLogix microprocessor
Founder, design lead Visual Media video effects/editing software
OpenGL driver development ATI
Itanium/i7 design team Intel (very likely being used by you right now)
Sped up Helicos DNA sequencing algorithm by 50X
Sped up NCAR weather microphysics kernel by 500X
Ported NCAR’s radiative transfer model to GPU
Ported NCAR’s WRF weather model to Windows
Drone visualization and control software for the US military
Medical device control systems (under NDA)
Virtual reality visualization design (under NDA)
Radio control and visualization software (under NDA)
There are many more projects I haven’t listed here. You will be hard pressed to find anyone with a broader and more successful career in science, education, environment and engineering. I use the same skill set and techniques to analyze climate science claims, as I have used in science/engineering.
Your computer/game consoles work, partly due to my efforts. By contrast, climate science doesn’t work, because it is done largely by dishonest, incompetent hacks who don’t follow or even understand any legitimate methodology.

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 20:31 utc | 91

Tom_Q_Collins –
If you think the people who created Chernobyl, Lake Karachay, and the Aral disaster were cleaner in their oil extraction practices in the Volga Basin, Azerbaijan or the Arctic oil fields, then I don’t know what to say. Every aspect of Soviet industry from extraction to manufacturing to use was dirty … usually horrifically so.
Amusing anecdote from Sochi 2014 related by Armine Sahakyan: “Guests staying at a modern hotel in Sochi, Russia, for the 2014 Winter Olympics recall signs in English next to their water faucets that read: “Do not use on your face because it contains something very dangerous.”” A legacy of who knows what …

Posted by: Caliman | Jul 16 2023 20:36 utc | 92

Posted by: Caliman –
I feel like I’m arguing with a troll here. Let’s first acknowledge that now you’re simply speculating for the purpose of “winning” an argument online such that if you “lost” you might have to re-evaluate your deeply held views on Rah Rah Capitalism vs. Shame on You Dirty Commies!; if you can do that, then I’ll continue.
When you go over the worst oil spills/disasters of all time, the vast majority of them happened just before or after the fall of the USSR including in Russia. Point being that the capitalists far and away lead the world in pollution, oil spills, attempted coverups and all that in just “recent” years alone. You have no proof of any major areas of massive pollution inside the former USSR akin to the Niger Delta or the Alberta Oil Sands. Or Brazil’s “mystery” oil spill that has contaminated dozens (132 affected in total) beaches God knows how many animals killed. The BP Deepwater Horizon. Or in terms of other production, Silver Bow Creek (Montana). The list goes on. So unless you can actually produce a list of a) industrial/fossil fuel disasters or b) data to back up your earlier assertion that the Planes, Trains and Automobiles (RIP John Candy) of the USSR were somehow drastically worse polluters and fuel consumers than their equivalent gas-guzzling weak-kneed American production cars of the time (don’t even get me started on Citroen, Jaguar or British 4X4s) then all you’re doing is waving your hands and engaging in the self-reinforcement of your own chosen preconceptions about the big, bad USSR and communism in general.
P.S. I did a little bit of research and the 1975 base model Chevy Chevelle sedan does very poorly in fuel economy compared to an equivalent 1975 Gaz-24 Volga, both being “mid-sized” 4-door models. I suspect that the picture gets even worse when I look at the V8 Chevelle which only had 2 doors.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 20:48 utc | 93

oldhipppie makes the most sense, as usual.
Most of thread is a sad example of divide and rule in action.

Posted by: Rae | Jul 16 2023 20:48 utc | 94

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 20:31 utc | 91
This media you talk about is most often corporate media, which almost always have majority shareholders, board rooms and C-suites populated by the same people who hold those types of positions for firms like Exxon Mobil, BP, Chevron, etc. Had the situation been different all these years, trust me, the coverage might have been even more brutal for fossil fuel interests and big capital (lol on that last one).
Further, the media you speak of is merely being its usual sensationalist self and almost never does a deep-dive within the stories you allude to about record heat. They may occasionally link to another story about things like it being part of a trend (which it is), or a story about how water temperatures measured off Florida’s coast are the highest temperatures that have ever been measured there (unless your blogger can refute that, then I have to assume they are). But in keeping with my first paragraph, here’s a summary of a study with a link far too long to include here (I can provide it if asked):

Summary
For the general public, the news media are an important source of information about climate change. They have significant potential to influence public understanding and perceptions of the issue. Television news, because of its visual immediacy and authoritative presentation, is likely to be particularly influential. Numerous studies have shown that television news can affect public opinion directly and indirectly through processes such as agenda setting and framing. Moreover, even in a fragmented media environment largely dominated by online communication, television remains a prominent medium through which citizens follow news about science issues. Given this, scholars over the last several decades have endeavored to map the content of television news reporting on climate change and its effects on public opinion and knowledge. Results from this research suggest that journalists’ adherence to professional norms such as balance, novelty, dramatization, and personalization, along with economic pressures and sociopolitical influences, have produced inaccuracies and distortions in television news coverage of climate change. For example, content analyses have found that U.S. network television news stories tend to over-emphasize dramatic impacts and imagery, conflicts between political groups and personalities, and the uncertainty surrounding climate science and policy. At the same time, those skeptical of climate change have been able to exploit journalists’ norms of balance and objectivity to amplify their voices in television coverage of climate change. In particular, the increasingly opinionated 24-hour cable news networks have become a megaphone for ideological viewpoints on climate change. In the United States, a coordinated climate denial movement has used Fox News to effectively spread its message discrediting climate science. Coverage on Fox News is overwhelmingly dismissive of climate change and disparaging toward climate science and scientists. Coverage on CNN and MSNBC is more accepting of climate change; however, while MSNBC tends to vilify the conservative opposition to climate science and policy, and occasionally exaggerates the impacts of climate change, CNN sends more mixed signals. Survey and experimental analyses indicate that these trends in television news coverage of climate change have important effects on public opinion and may, in particular, fuel confusion and apathy among the general U.S. public and foster opinion extremity among strong partisans.

The takeaway for me is that the commercial/corporate media (that none of us trust on foreign policy where they DO march in lockstep) do not adhere to the broad brush portrayal you make when it comes to “climate change.” Another takeaway is the part about confusion and apathy. Who does that ultimately benefit here? Cui bono? I think if you’re honest with yourself, you can admit that it’s the big energy / fossil fuel corporate interests (and their beholden politicians – mostly on right, some in the middle like Manchin) that would prefer a state of confusion and apathy among the voting and viewing population and not the population itself.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 20:59 utc | 95

Ask any farmer in the world if the climate is warming and he’ll answer, ‘yes.’
Posted by: john | Jul 16 2023 20:12 utc | 85

Yeah. It’s been warming since around 1720 in the UK. Boy were we glad to see the back of the little ice age. Instead of just potatoes and turnips, leaks and onions, we could grow all sorts of tastier and more interesting vegtables again, like we used to in the 1200s.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 16 2023 21:02 utc | 96

I´ll recommend the deniers to go to Global Warming and Climate Change skepticism examined (skepticalscience.com) if you are really interested in getting answers to your questions.
Posted by: Northern Eve | Jul 16 2023 20:08 utc | 83
Does it even attempt to explain why all the alarmist “scientific” predictions of doom failed over the past few decades, and NONE came true? (UWDude)
You really should go over there and check for yourself. I almost recommended that site as well, but decided to scan the thread to see if it had already been provided. In fact I generated some search results for you on “failed predictions” that you might peruse. If you find anything compelling or wrong, we should discuss. That said, my usual Sunday qualification applies: Gotta mow both front and back lawns so may not be back on the computer for a while.
https://skepticalscience.com/search.php?Search=failed+predictions&x=0&y=0

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 21:07 utc | 97

Will one believer even admit that they thought sea levels would be at least 10cm higher by now?
TEN centimeters? Like throughout every ocean on Earth? Please do tell; which respectable credentialed scientist said this let alone got it accepted to a peer reviewed publication and when?
Of course not, none of you will admit you sat by, and argued for years, or even decades, seeped in anger and hatred those who denied your faith.
I’m really disappointed in you for engaging in projection like that. Because that’s exactly what it smacks of. The only anger, hatred and rudeness I’m seeing today is from the “skeptics” (and this applies at any site, such as skepticalscience.com where the moderator(s) routinely have to police comments due to climate deniers parachuting in and spewing hatred, lies and insults around – seriously peruse several older articles and their comments).

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 16 2023 21:11 utc | 98

Oil owned media over-sensationalizes global warming because they want people to not care and be confused.
God loves you, that’s why he will send you to hell if you dont believe his son rose from the dead.
I also must note, every single disciple of “Climate Science” adopts the terminology of their priests unquestioningly.
They all within a year went from “global warming” to “climate change”, and then a decade later to “climate science”. All very fast, like true acolytes.
They also never fail to use the talking points and insults given to them:. “climate denialist” etc.
You debate one global warming believer, you’ve debated them all. They all say the same things, use the.same insults, and when their masters tell them to start using a new term, they will do so, never even questioning the motive behind the term change.
I mean, the world is at stake, so surely, if new scriptures are given, then surely the high priests of science have their reasons!

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 16 2023 21:12 utc | 99

i must note, every libertarian who pretends physics is not science adopts the terminology of religion in describing it. and also pretends fossil fuel companies don’t have a vested interest in lying about the science that threatens their industry.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jul 16 2023 21:15 utc | 100