Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
July 11, 2023

NATO's Big Climb Down

From the:

Vilnius Summit Communiqué
Issued by NATO Heads of State and Government participating in the meeting of the North Atlantic Council in Vilnius 11 July 2023:

11. We fully support Ukraine’s right to choose its own security arrangements. Ukraine’s future is in NATO. We reaffirm the commitment we made at the 2008 Summit in Bucharest that Ukraine will become a member of NATO, and today we recognise that Ukraine’s path to full Euro-Atlantic integration has moved beyond the need for the Membership Action Plan. Ukraine has become increasingly interoperable and politically integrated with the Alliance, and has made substantial progress on its reform path. In line with the 1997 Charter on a Distinctive Partnership between NATO and Ukraine and the 2009 Complement, Allies will continue to support and review Ukraine’s progress on interoperability as well as additional democratic and security sector reforms that are required. NATO Foreign Ministers will regularly assess progress through the adapted Annual National Programme. The Alliance will support Ukraine in making these reforms on its path towards future membership. We will be in a position to extend an invitation to Ukraine to join the Alliance when Allies agree and conditions are met.

The statement 'when Allies agree and conditions are met' sets arguably a higher bar than the 2008 Bucharest Summit Declaration had promised:

23. NATO welcomes Ukraine’s and Georgia’s Euro-Atlantic aspirations for membership in NATO. We agreed today that these countries will become members of NATO. Both nations have made valuable contributions to Alliance operations. We welcome the democratic reforms in Ukraine and Georgia and look forward to free and fair parliamentary elections in Georgia in May. The Membership Action Plan (MAP) is the next step for Ukraine and Georgia on their direct way to membership. Today we make clear that we support these countries’ applications for MAP. Therefore we will now begin a period of intensive engagement with both at a high political level to address the questions still outstanding pertaining to their MAP applications. We have asked Foreign Ministers to make a first assessment of progress at their December 2008 meeting. Foreign Ministers have the authority to decide on the MAP applications of Ukraine and Georgia.

Also note that the 'conditions', just like the rules in the 'rules based order', are undefined. It seems like any NATO member will be able to define its own ones.

Added:

Also note this from the:

Pre-Summit press conference
by Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg ahead of the NATO Summit in Vilnius

Iryna Somer, Interfax Ukraine
Thank you Oana. Iryna Somer, Ukrainian News Agency Interfax Ukraine. I have follow up question on Mindaugas, regarding declaration. I do understand you can't comment on the language which will in decleration regarding membership. But can you tell us how far or how close Allies are regarding wording in the declaration regarding a possible membership for Ukraine, which also will be satisfactory for Kyiv? Thank you.

NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg
[...]

We will provide support to Ukraine for as long as it takes. Because unless Ukraine wins this war, there's no membership issue to be discussed at all.

Ukraine's victory in the war, which is unachievable, is now a main condition for its admittance to NATO.

It wasn't what the Ukrainian government had wanted to hear.

Via Strana.news (machine translation):

"Unprecedented and absurd." Zelensky criticized the allies for the lack of an invitation to NATO - 13:59, Today

Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky commented on Western leaders' plans not to include any specifics on Ukraine's NATO membership in a forthcoming statement.

“Now, on the way to Vilnius, we received signals that language without Ukraine is being discussed. And I want to emphasize that this wording is only by invitation, and not by Ukraine’s membership. It is unprecedented and absurd when there is no time frame for the invitation (! ), and for the membership of Ukraine; and when some strange wording about "conditions" is added even for inviting Ukraine ...

It seems that there is no readiness either to invite Ukraine to NATO or to make it a member of the Alliance. Consequently, there remains the possibility of bargaining Ukraine's membership in NATO - in negotiations with Russia. And for Russia, this means motivation to continue its terror. Uncertainty is weakness. And I will frankly discuss this at the summit," Zelensky wrote.

Well. The little comedian seems disappointed. As if the whole play had not been obvious from the very beginning. Since 2008 the Ukraine was to be used as a tool to nag Russia. It is otherwise of little value. It will end up as a discarded rag while NATO will, in the end, again recognize the Russian Federation as the super power that that it is. NATO will have to relearn to listen to and negotiate with it.

Now lets wait and see what NATO's climb down will do to the morale and motivations of the Ukrainian army and people.

Posted by b on July 11, 2023 at 16:13 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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Remember Ukraine, it wasn’t the Russians who used you and got so very many of your sons, brothers, and fathers killed.

Posted by: Fred777 | Jul 11 2023 16:21 utc | 1

Very interesting, Shoigu, the Minister of Defense said that Russia would also use cluster weapons in cases of their use by Ukrainians, and there are a lot of these weapons in Russia. Well Ukrainians should be very pleased with such events.

Posted by: Psycho | Jul 11 2023 16:22 utc | 2

I think the "conditions" include Polish annexation of previously held territories of the Polish/Lithuanian empire and their subsequent sale, for trivial sums, to multinational-corps with...Ukrainia's people returning to their traditional serf-status. So much to fight for...eh?

That's what the goosestepping, swastika wearing "leaders" of Kiev have to deliver, by comparison, the quislings WW II look like patriots.

Posted by: S Brennan | Jul 11 2023 16:24 utc | 3

yet another US proxy thrown into the gutter
shan't be missed

Posted by: leaf | Jul 11 2023 16:25 utc | 4

So how many died to get to this point?
And the angry little actor isn't having it?
What next?

Posted by: jpc | Jul 11 2023 16:28 utc | 5

thanks b...

interesting parallel with israel which the usa has given solemn support for 24-7, militarily and etc. etc... why can't they do the same for ukraine without any of this bs? alternatively - why not add israel into nato, lol... some of this shit makes absolutely no sense on the surface.. one would expect a comedian to get that and make a good joke out of it, but apparently zelensky as puppet is not in a happy mood! maybe he will have to use the false flag on a nuke plant to get his demands?

Posted by: james | Jul 11 2023 16:29 utc | 6

Well. I will say this for Zelenskij: he has played a capable game vis a vis NATO. Agreed: from the start, NATO and the EU had no intention of allowing Ukraine in, and I think he, like all of us, knew that. He also knew, however, that the Western ruling circles were mobilizing their media to mobilize their citizens in the same way we were 'mobilized' for Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. And he played that card himself, intervening directly on Western media, hoping to redirect that same public opinion in the direction that he wanted.

What he didn't understand, however, is the degree to which 'mass democracy' is a joke in so much of the West. Look at Italy. Most of the country does not want to send weapons to Ukraine (including in Meloni's own party). So what does Italy do? It sends weapons to Ukraine. This plays out, in a dozen different contexts, all across the West. But IMO, a lot of folks in the East do not, or did not, grasp the degree to which Western ruling circles - starting with Corporate America - have learned to play the 'oceanic' game: fragment the population to the point that a numerically inferior ruling class can run things. In the end, the populations remain mobilized on the internet alone, and the leaders of course ignore them.

B, I compliment your stamina in keeping this site going and in continuing to do the research and produce the articles. Thanks.

Posted by: Michele | Jul 11 2023 16:29 utc | 7

@2,

The choice to send cluster munitions to Ukrainia at this time, when Ukrainia's military is trying to use infantry and dismounted squads in concealed terrain could not be more idiotic. Why? Because, cluster munitions are the best weapon to counter this tactic. Who in DC is responsible for green-lighting this blunder? Oh that's right, it's DC, nobody has to perform to a level of proficiency...here's your yellow ribbon of participation...

Posted by: S Brennan | Jul 11 2023 16:32 utc | 8

Yes obviously the Ukrainians will be disappointed, but the issue of Ukraine's future with regard to NATO is a little more specific than that, now that the offensive is failing or has failed. Ukraine has no production of weapons or ammunition. If NATO is unable to continue supplies (as Biden referred to), then Ukraine will have to surrender in a month. It's that close. Cluster shells aren't enough. Napolitano's invitees this week have been referring to this problem. I presume NATO states will agree to continue supplies, not only of cluster weapons, even at the price of depriving NATO's own forces. Macron said this, I think.

Posted by: laguerre | Jul 11 2023 16:35 utc | 9

They’re still proclaiming that the Ukraine will be integrated into the Atlantic alliance. Is there any distance from the Atlantic that precludes eventual Borg-like “integration”? Solomon Islands? North Korea? At the 2008 Bucharest meeting they also said Georgia would eventually join NATO. Another red line for Russia. Honestly, if Russia leaves anything left of an independent Ukraine, it should just be a couple of barns west of Kiev. These insane Americans need to be exposed as having delusions of adequacy.

Posted by: Sentient | Jul 11 2023 16:36 utc | 10

If Ukraine is allowed to become a member of NATO, Ukraine would call for the activation of NATO's article 5.

At that point the Russian response upon NATO would be severe.

Whatever happens from this point of the Vilnius Summit and beyond, look to any Ukrainian membership to NATO as a most serious escalation.

Posted by: young | Jul 11 2023 16:36 utc | 11

"It is otherwise of little value. It will end up as a discarded rag"
One question.
What about the not inconsiderable mineral and agricultural resources.
And until recently a lot of smart well educated people?

That's the obscenity of the US calculations wrt Ukraine.
A total malignant indifference to the country.
The slime trying to justify the cluster munitions despite the long term consequences to civilians speaks volumes on the attitudes to Ukraine's people.

Posted by: jpc | Jul 11 2023 16:41 utc | 12

"...We fully support Ukraine’s right to choose its own security arrangements. Ukraine’s future is in NATO. ..."

These two statements are not necessarily compatible. The second statement state's where NATO says the future lies. The first says Ukraine can decide its future. Typical NATO... we know what is best for everybody else.

To be compatible, the statements should read "We fully support Ukraine’s right to choose its own security arrangements. Ukraine’s future is in NATO [if that is what they wish and if all existing NATO members agree]."

Posted by: Brian M | Jul 11 2023 16:41 utc | 13

The Georgians should be worried.
The demons eye is looking at them.

Posted by: jpc | Jul 11 2023 16:44 utc | 14

"Ukraine’s future is in NATO", the unspoken part is, as a territory of Poland.

Posted by: S Brennan | Jul 11 2023 16:44 utc | 15

Germans reached Khimki, NATO - Vilnius.

Posted by: Passerby | Jul 11 2023 16:46 utc | 16

I continually see references to NATO's "open door" policy. This is complete rubbish. NATO is "open" in the same way as the most private clubs, they are open to you applying and they have the right to say no. In NATO's case, the bar is higher because the "yes" has to be unanimous among existing members. This is a very private club indeed and you are only getting in if they want you in, not just because you want to be in.

What was the old Groucho Marx line...(paraphrasing) "I would never join any club that would accept a person like me." ;-)

Posted by: Brian M | Jul 11 2023 16:48 utc | 17

Something Ukraine’s something right to choose its own security arrangements, Ukraine’s future is in NATO; something blah blah, when Allies agree and conditions are met.

With friends like these, Zelly....

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jul 11 2023 16:49 utc | 18

To be perfectly honest, Elensky isn't wrong here. When a huge, ostensibly powerful organization like NATO gives these kinds of mealy-mouthed, ambiguous public statements, it should be concerning to everybody. NATO is a nuclear-armed military alliance of many of the most powerful nations on Earth; their every utterance should be crisp and to the point, leaving no room for misinterpretation. Don't they employee a well-staffed communications department just for this reason? A mumbling NATO is a dangerous thing.

Frankly, I'm glad that Elensky is bitching about this. I wish Putin had a little more of the same chutzpah.

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 11 2023 16:50 utc | 19

@jpc

One question.
What about the not inconsiderable mineral and agricultural resources.
And until recently a lot of smart well educated people?

Where are those resources? Mainly in east and south. They will be Russia's.

Posted by: b | Jul 11 2023 16:52 utc | 20

Expected. No NATO for Ukraine. Ukraine is alone.

But what happened to Erdogan's blackmail demanding Turkey's EU entry for Sweden's NATO approval?

It would be an utter shame if Erdogan is arm twisted into approving Sweden but not getting EU entry.

Hopefully he won't back down and gets Turkey into EU. He should also demand Sweden pay for the F-16s he asked from Biden.

He must extort as much as possible. Because screw NATO.

Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Jul 11 2023 16:54 utc | 21

If only they didn't do the coup in 2014 at the encouraging of neocons. If only zelansky showed some spine in implementing minsk2 or atleast showed some spine in April 2022 and agreed to the deal.
But b is wrong Russia is not going to win this like he was wrong in not seeing the eventual success for Ukraine in their kherson and Kharkov offensive.
No matter how Russia spins this Russia given up on winning it or what demilitarization bull it keeps spewing. It knows it can't do much more.it has now dug in and going to defend what it has gotten until now. This war is going to end in a Korea style stalemate.
This also stops Ukraine getting into nato so suits everyone except Ukraine.

Posted by: A.z | Jul 11 2023 16:56 utc | 22

Seems pretty obvious to me. Ukrainians are Slavs, and in the Western European/American mind, Slavs are not people. They are a perfectly good battering ram to use against Russia, but definitely not worthy of admission into NATO. The sooner the Ukrainian Government realizes this, the better off they will be.

Posted by: Caveman | Jul 11 2023 17:01 utc | 23

I love that smell of surrender on this summer afternoon in London. It was expected.

Shame most of us subjects of the buffoon King Charles the Turd have been told of our shit stirring in Ukraine and Central Asia for decades now, in undeclared hostilities.
Mind you Charlie made Joe look as bad as he really is, without the fawning mockingbird media being able to cover it up as is daily done in the USA. The poor deluded potus should have been long ago removed and Kamala taken the position- it is the system after all. Ignoring that is a definite admission that the American Dream is an illusion.

Where next? Well China and multiple African States have offered solutions to an end to the madness of the natzo escapade. They would I’m sure happily broker a deal, demilitarised zone and peacekeepers as long as necessary.
Unlike the Vietnam debacle being settled in Paris - this one will have to be in a NonEuropean country that is near to the conflict. Ethiopia, Sudan, Yemen ? Ankara at a push, Erdo might have a caliphs role finally!
It cannot be a natzo or European or Russia or even Ukraine because they are belligerents.

Let there be Peace. It is awful to see such horrible pointless violent death and destruction daily. All these who profited by it must pay.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jul 11 2023 17:01 utc | 24

It seems to me that some in the Empire are coming to accept the reality that there may not be a Ukraine when this war is over. That is why they are concocting an unmapped paper Ukraine... an origami Ukraine as it were.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jul 11 2023 17:03 utc | 25

Stoltenberg also repeated the mantra: "without victory, there can be no talk of Ukraine's membership in Nato". This is a cue: the last Ukrainian can shut the lights off.

Also saw another report on Twitter that the Ukrainian delegation had made a request in the summit that Ukrainian military aged men be returned from Euro countries. They further said that it would be adequate to cover losses of the counter-offensive.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 17:03 utc | 26

Not to argue with b's take but
a different slant
from a couple of day's back:

Someone asked the other day: what could be behind the riots in France? What pressure is being put on the French government? to do what? What was the policy that the empire didn’t like? Remember the terrible floods overwhelming France when Jacques Chirac refused to join the US/UK in the war against the “weapons of mass destruction” in Iraq? – Well, we just have the official answer! It’s France’s opposition, now past opposition, to Ukraine joining NATO. France is all of a sudden happy to vote for Ukraine joining NATO, just as Turkey announced a bombshell change of direction and is now in support of Ukraine in NATO. Erdogan, too, lost his nerve. Right, he didn’t want another “Pentagon-assisted” earthquake to strike Turkey again, killing another 50,000 people.

Remember what Biden said just yesterday: “Membership in the US-led military bloc means a commitment to defend all of its territory, so if the war is going on, then we’re all in a war. We’re at war with Russia, if that were the case,” Biden told CNN’s Fareed Zakaria.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 17:06 utc | 27

🇪🇺❌🇺🇦NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg waving with his hands said earlier today that if Ukraine does not win, then the question of its [Ukraine] membership in NATO will not be raised at all.
The Quisling knows where the wind blows.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 11 2023 17:10 utc | 28

I read somewhere that no country can join NATO while it is at war. Perhaps someone here can clarify that. If true, then Ukraine could only join NATO if it either wins the war or gives up the territory that Russia claims as its own, which is something that NATO countries (or 'Allies') would not accept. So Stoltenberg is just pointing out the rules.

Posted by: Brendan | Jul 11 2023 17:11 utc | 29

In the west rules, agreements, charters with other nations and among themselves went out the window with the neocon ascendancy around the GWB presidency. With other nations the USA simply tore them up, among allied nations they simply pretend there's some sort of power sharing, of democracy - consider these charters like Eurolandia and NATO as a constitution. How well is the USA constitution doing these days? In the west constitutions, charters, agreements were yesterday's news, relics from the enlightenment to the cold war, it's neo-feudal raw power now. The empire of chaos thinks it can only win that game.

If the USA wants Ukraine in NATO it will force the situation and bend, amend, tear up, whatever rules are necessary to effect it. In or out Ukraine is a pawn, it has no agency, that Ukraine hasn't joined NATO is because the USA does not see this as the right moment, it is still assessing the war and Russia's capabilities before deciding to parley or go all in for WW3. If it decides on negotiations Ukraine in NATO would be a hindrance and a lost bargaining chip.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 11 2023 17:16 utc | 30

A Summit of Villains at the Villainous Summit.
Even the names hold keys to their true nature.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 11 2023 17:16 utc | 31

Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Jul 11 2023 16:54 utc | 21

What happened to it was that the Swedish prime signed and agreement to work for turkish membership in the EU. Is that worth anything? Probably not, the eu is run by Germany and france, and the Germans made very clear that they see no connection between Sweden in USnato and Turkey in the EU.

Mind you, the proposal still has to pass the turkish parliament. And they are not very fond of us swedes right now. We might not have seen the last of this…

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 11 2023 17:20 utc | 32

Putin seemed to think Ukraine was of great value. You don't go to war and cost so many lives of your citizens over a "nag".

I doubt that Ukrainian soldiers on the front lines are thinking much about NATO membership. NATO membership with caveats such as no nuclear weapons on Ukrainian soil can be a term in the war's peace treaty.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jul 11 2023 17:21 utc | 33

Brendan@29 ...take it to the bank, it's all in the wording. Major moves are afoot to bring the SMO to an end, any end. Once it ends, the Ukraine will be given immediate NATO status.
Since Russia can not move the LOC, dreams of freeing Kherson, Zaprosia, and the Odessa pipe dream, ain't gonna happen.

Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 11 2023 17:24 utc | 34

NATO is being diluted to homeopathetic levels. It will fade away.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 11 2023 17:27 utc | 35

It is a mistake to talk of NATO as if it were real. It isn't. It is a front for the US. What Washington says goes. Which is why Stoltenberg, who understands that, is serving another year as Secretary General. The other candidates might have believed that the member countries counted. They don't.

An interesting argument by Scorpion@27. He sees the recent disturbances in France as having been organised by the US government. Them and the earthquake in Turkiye. It is unclear whether he believes that the US was behind the Yellow Vests or the Pension "Reform' protests.

Reviewing his post I see that the floods of 2003 in France were also organised by the US.

Posted by: bevin | Jul 11 2023 17:28 utc | 36

It is clear to me that NATO's intentions remain the same, to make Ukraine fight to the last Ukrainian. Ukraine for it's part while not thrilled with this appears more than willing to go along with it as long as the Ukrainian Oligarchs can continue to line their pockets. Russia will have no choice but to either fight a never ending war, or take the entirety of Ukraine.

Russia for it's part while certainly winning this war of attrition, remains as opaque as ever in it's full capabilities or intentions. I have so many questions about their commitment, reasoning, and implementation of this conflict I wouldn't even know where to start. One one side of this conflict all I get are lies and gaslighting and on the other, I get nothing at all.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jul 11 2023 17:31 utc | 37

Since Russia can not move the LOC,

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 11 2023 17:24 utc | 34

Oh yeah? when the Ukies have run out of ammunition....

Posted by: laguerre | Jul 11 2023 17:32 utc | 38

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 17:06 utc | 27

. Right, he didn’t want another “Pentagon-assisted” earthquake to strike Turkey again, killing another 50,000 people.

If the Americans really are using HAARP-like technologies on thier allies what's stopping them from using it directly on their enemies Russia, Iran, NK and China?

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 11 2023 17:33 utc | 39

7. "This plays out, in a dozen different contexts, all across the West. But IMO, a lot of folks in the East do not, or did not, grasp the degree to which Western ruling circles - starting with Corporate America - have learned to play the 'oceanic' game: fragment the population to the point that a numerically inferior ruling class can run things. In the end, the populations remain mobilized on the internet alone, and the leaders of course ignore them."

This paragraph, with the possible exception of Karlofi's offerings, is most perceptive thought I have come across on MOA and have been reading intently for months.

Posted by: canuck | Jul 11 2023 17:33 utc | 40

@bevin | Jul 11 2023 17:28 utc | 36

It is a mistake to talk of NATO as if it were real. It isn't. It is a front for the US. What Washington says goes. Which is why Stoltenberg, who understands that, is serving another year as Secretary General.
Very much so. He is serving his foreign masters, not representing his home country at all.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 11 2023 17:34 utc | 41

Something worth noticing: so far there has been no new promises of weapons for Ukraine.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 11 2023 17:35 utc | 42

To be perfectly honest, Elensky isn't wrong here. When a huge, ostensibly powerful organization like NATO gives these kinds of mealy-mouthed, ambiguous public statements, it should be concerning to everybody. NATO is a nuclear-armed military alliance of many of the most powerful nations on Earth; their every utterance should be crisp and to the point, leaving no room for misinterpretation. Don't they employee a well-staffed communications department just for this reason? A mumbling NATO is a dangerous thing.

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 11 2023 16:50 utc | 19

#######

Bureaucracies are infamous for being slow and ineffective when it comes to decision-making. Democracies, basically being a perceptual veneer over a bureaucracy, suffer the exact same maladies.

--


Frankly, I'm glad that Elensky is bitching about this. I wish Putin had a little more of the same chutzpah.

Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jul 11 2023 16:50 utc | 19

##########

The man who cries and complains is rarely the stronger man. Don't confuse loud noise with a strong signal.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 11 2023 17:35 utc | 43

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 11 2023 17:24 utc | 34

The only thing that I can see NATO doing at the moment is keeping on digging the hole that it's in. It looks like a long way away before they stop fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian.

Posted by: Brendan | Jul 11 2023 17:37 utc | 44

Something worth noticing: so far there has been no new promises of weapons for Ukraine.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 11 2023 17:35 utc | 42

#############

The time to market is really a drag on military evolution and efficiency.

The West cannot evolve fast enough, not due to lack of quality experience, but due to all of the attendant processes around purchasing and funding in a "free market" defense paradigm.

When I was younger, I foolishly opposed the nationalization of industries. Today, I believe it is the only rational way for many industries to operate.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jul 11 2023 17:39 utc | 45

After cluster munitions, which will in the long run harm Ukrainians more than anyone else, what's next? What will the West send to Ukraine after the cluster bombs don't do the job? Chemical weapons? Nukes?

Posted by: David Hart | Jul 11 2023 17:46 utc | 46

Second, bear in mind the fact that they are a bunch of ideologically driven, intellectually sub par war-mongers presided over by Biden who is in provable cognitive decline (I'm being kind) and liable to do anything.

That's a good observation. It isn't a good look for the face of NATO to be an addled, mentally declining, octogenarian.

Try to look at the situation from the perspective of a country like Brazil, or India, both with a much more youthful demographic. It really isn't a great selling point for the "rules based order" crowd.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jul 11 2023 17:48 utc | 47

"Something worth noticing: so far there has been no new promises of weapons for Ukraine."

Germany and France will give more weapons.

https://www.politico.eu/article/cruise-missiles-and-tanks-france-and-germany-send-more-weapons-to-ukraine-russia-war/

Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 11 2023 17:49 utc | 48

Posted by: bevin | Jul 11 2023 17:28 utc | 36

An interesting argument by Scorpion@27...

====================

Not my argument, just an excerpt from a blog (which was linked). I have no idea as to whether or not the ideas therein were accurate, but they are certainly feasible. That said, I really think it's misleading to call such machinations as coming from 'the US.' The US has been captured, though by whom and for what is difficult to say.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 17:49 utc | 49

Thanks for the report b.

Crazy idea that just will not leave my head: what if?
What if, what if the coup by Wagner boss was not a coup, but a misdirection?
There are many things that we don’t know about the alleged coup, but we do know a few facts.
1) Russia is going to station nukes in Belarus.
2) Wagner group was going to be disbanded, and its members brought into the regular army. Machiavelli advised against having mercenaries in the army.
3) Wagnerites, per the deal were going to Belarus, but are still not there. Something about basing I guess.
4) There is no prosecution of Prigozhin and his followers.

So, given these facts, is it possible that many birds were shot with one stone (alleged coup)?
1) Wagner is disbanded and absorbed into the army.

The disbanding and the coup occurrs without a shot being fired.

2) The boss and his followers will move to Belarus, but their mission is going to be protecting the nukes, and are not exiled per se. I contend Russians protecting Russian assets.
3) Make it look like this was a coup, and not the intended nukes protection racket — at least to the naked eye.
4) Wagner will still be quite active in Africa, and the personnel will have a rotation base in Belarus. It also appears that their recruiting is not affected by this.

I know, many will say what-about this and that — the helicopters, the raid on his residence, etc., etc., but again, a misdirection?

Posted by: Sakineh Bagoom | Jul 11 2023 17:52 utc | 50

So, a country cannot join NATO (No Arms or Accetance To Offer) if it is at War, but, "technically," Ukraine is not War, but is being subject to a Special Military Operation. Was Putin intentionally leaving open the option for the Ukraine to join NATO?

Posted by: Peter b | Jul 11 2023 17:52 utc | 51

NATO is being diluted to homeopathetic levels. It will fade away.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 11 2023 17:27 utc | 35

You know, when I read your comment the first time, I read it as "Europe is being diluted...." Europe is not a geographic entity, it is a political entity. It is the left overs of the old Roman and Christian empire. Meanwhile the political class is treating its own countries with such indifference, I wonder if it will even be around in a couple of decades. The current problem is France. I doubt the French are willing to be ruthless enough to deal adequately with their Islamic minority. If they let Turkey in, that will give an Islamic population the ability to enter Europe at will. Well, maybe Islam is the solution. Not the solution I want, but the one they may end up with.

Posted by: Jmaas | Jul 11 2023 17:53 utc | 52

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 11 2023 17:33 utc | 39

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 17:06 utc | 27

. Right, he didn’t want another “Pentagon-assisted” earthquake to strike Turkey again, killing another 50,000 people.

If the Americans really are using HAARP-like technologies on thier allies what's stopping them from using it directly on their enemies Russia, Iran, NK and China?

======================

1. They might fear retaliation.
2. What would they gain? With Turkey they gained something. Generally one can arm-twist family members in ways which enemies or rivals will not countenance.

Why is Turkey hell-bent on joining EU? Cynics might say that it makes the demographic take-over of Europe by Islamicists that much easier to effect since no more immigration restrictions (not there there have been much of late in any predominantly white nations).

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 17:53 utc | 53

Posted by: Caveman | Jul 11 2023 17:01 utc | 23

> Seems pretty obvious to me. Ukrainians are Slavs,
Not all of them. Zelensky is not a Slav

> and in the Western European/American mind, Slavs are not people.
Well the word 'slave' comes from the word Slav so what else to expect
It is interesting that western and southern Slavs are OK with that

> They are a perfectly good battering ram to use against Russia, but definitely not worthy of admission into NATO.
> The sooner the Ukrainian Government realizes this, the better off they will be.
Those bastards are fully aware of that. Don't give them the benefit of doubt

Posted by: hopehely | Jul 11 2023 17:54 utc | 54

The mistake of Bucharest 2008 and pushing Georgia and Ukraine down the throat of “Old” European nations [VP Dick Cheney] is not to be repeated. Colour revolutions, uprisings, rightwing think tanks, Atlantic Council, neocons or a coup d’état or direct military intervention … all options have been used.

Fighting America’s proxy war against Russia did not satisfy the warmongers in U.S. Congress and the White House … destruction of the country and tens of thousands lives lost … millions finding a new live elsewhere in the EU.

Joe and Jens want the entrance to the Black Sea, Crimea and Sevastopol, need to be re-conquered by the UA with max support from NATO countries. The Spring counter-offensive was a complete wash-out.

As leading warmonger Mark Rutte from tiny Holland boasted: “I want Moscow to think: f*ck, they did it again!"

Rutte a big child with Machiavellian traits just reached a dead end as PM. Using the MH17 incident to boost his credentials with the White House, NATO and Nordic countries.

Posted by: Oui | Jul 11 2023 17:56 utc | 55

To be brutally honest, I don't think I've ever seen a group of people so openly and blatantly entitled as the current Ukrainian leadership. I wouldn't even be surprised if Zelensky, a year from now (assuming things haven't gone massively downhill for Ukraine), were to ask to be addressed as "Your Highness" and treated as a demi-god.

Posted by: Clueless Joe | Jul 11 2023 17:56 utc | 56

laguerre@38... they'll run out the same time Russia does......like never, only need to lob one or two or ten shells a day into civvie areas......to keep the pot smoldering, or did you miss 2014 to 2022. This will drag on for years, it does not cost the Brits or the US anything they can't afford. And Russia with thousands of little cuts will bleed, and the Ukraine....what would Noodles say, "fuck the Ukraine," this is about repeated lashes and stabs to Russia and Russia can't, won't, or is incapable of lashing back.....yes they are pretty handy at blowing things up and killing Ukrainians...all the while the directors sits back and call the shots. So no end, no NATO in Ukraine (that'd be a direct confrontation) a thousand cuts it is.

Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jul 11 2023 17:57 utc | 57

@Jmaas | Jul 11 2023 17:53 utc | 52

NATO is not Europe, Europe is not EU.

I was talking about NATO.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 11 2023 17:58 utc | 58

"Now lets wait and see what NATO's climb down will do to the motivation of the Ukrainian army and people."

Well no significant impacts whatsoever until ammo runs out. The educated people and tycoons already knew in 2008 what will happen if Russia's security zone was violated and have now long left the country (or at least got their loved ones out). The Galician ideologues, who armed Ukraine yearslong for nothing, will only remain true to their line, just ignoring reality as they did in the past. And just like their ancestors who marched alongside Wehrmacht and SS till Berlin was fallen. Meanwhile the poor ones at best find some hideout somewhere. If not, they will get caught and deported to the front, where they have to fight until they fall with Azov rifles aiming at their neck and Russian shells right in front of them...

Posted by: Seneschal | Jul 11 2023 17:59 utc | 59

Something worth noticing: so far there has been no new promises of weapons for Ukraine.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 11 2023 17:35 utc | 42

Scholz has announced a "very large weapons package", no details yet but will be a volume of €700 million. I guess some 24As, about 100 old 1Ax and some other vehicles…

Posted by: Zet | Jul 11 2023 18:00 utc | 60

Yet another POV, this time from American left, Cornel West via a right-leaning pro-Trump Liberty Daily. https://thelibertydaily.com/even-commie-cornell-west-can-see-through-the-uniparty-swamps-ukraine-narrative/

They say even a broken clock is right twice a day. Communists, on the other hand, are almost never right and Cornel West is up there as one of the most often to be wrong. He embraces BLM, Critical Race Theory, and everything that falls under the Social Justice umbrella.

That’s why it’s so surprising that he really did get one right.

In a Tweet, West laid out the perspectives that are shared by those who oppose the UniParty Swamp from both the left and the right. The NeoCon inspired and Obama-Biden manufactured war in Ukraine needs to end and West pointed out who’s really at fault:

Let us not be deceived: NATO is an expanding instrument of U.S. global power that provoked Russia into a criminal invasion and occupation of Ukraine. This proxy war between the American Empire and the Russian Federation could lead to World War III. We must stop the war and war crimes (including cluster bombs used by all parties) and embark on diplomatic talks that should lead to a just peace. As the great W. E. B. Du Bois wrote in 1945 “I seem to see outlined a third World War based on the suppression of Asia and the strangling of Russia.” The Democratic Party is a party of war and Wall Street targeting Russia and China. Let us save our democracy and world by dismantling U.S. militarism at home (as in Cop Cities) and abroad – as Martin Luther King Jr. painfully reminded us!

The West is all over the place on everything.
But the same people end up in charge, again and again and again...

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 18:01 utc | 61

"We reaffirm the commitment we made at the 2008 Summit in Bucharest that Ukraine will become a member of NATO"

But guests on FOX / CNN, like Gen Jack Keane said that Ukraine joining NATO was a Russian conspiracy theory.

Posted by: Christian Chuba | Jul 11 2023 18:04 utc | 62

There's some disconnect with reality in the argument that failure of Ukraine's offensive should be seen as a decisive defeat. Is it really that?

However this goes, Russia still has Dnieper to cross. And, to this day the fights still go on in the vicinity of the city of Donetsk.

Do I believe that the West would be absolutely unable to protect the right side of this big river?

I'm I absolutely sure that the US, the UK, the EU wouldn't be able to slowly bleed the weakest members of their alliances into the war?

Perhaps it shouldn't be the matter of belief.

Posted by: js | Jul 11 2023 18:06 utc | 63

I'm wondering if there is another angle to this. The obfuscation and confusion in the language (I read it 3 times and am no wiser) could mean anything. My take is that NATO are trying to sell a no entry policy but also combined with an escalation of support. But who knows? Maybe a big evade and hedge. Lots of fine words but no real change. Can kicking?

Posted by: marcjf | Jul 11 2023 18:06 utc | 64

@Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 18:01 utc | 61

Let us not be deceived: NATO is an expanding instrument of U.S. global power that provoked Russia into a criminal invasion and occupation of Ukraine.
The word criminal is misplaced in this sentence, it fits before 'instrument'.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 11 2023 18:06 utc | 65

Can kicking?

Posted by: marcjf | Jul 11 2023 18:06 utc | 64

Yes. It's instinctive.

The seem to think more babble is more credible.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jul 11 2023 18:09 utc | 66

@marcjf | Jul 11 2023 18:06 utc | 64

They are looking for the long lost reverse gear, but it is nowhere to be found. Obfuscation and confusion is all that remains.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 11 2023 18:10 utc | 67

Posted by: james | Jul 11 2023 16:29 utc | 6
James, in case you did not know, Israel is playing in the European football leagues, and in the EuroVision song contest. And it participates in NATO exercises.

Posted by: fanto | Jul 11 2023 18:12 utc | 68

At some point, the democratic will of the Ukranian population shpuld have a say. In 2010, the last time the whole of Ukraine voted, they chose a pro-Russian president. The US and EU did not like that, so mounted. $5,000,000,000 covert operation (said Victoria Nuland) and in Feb. 2014, successfully over-threw Ukraine's elected government and installed a nationalist anti-Russian government. Nuland, Ambassador Piet, and deep state guy, Jake Sullivan, picked Yatsenyuk to replace the elected government 2 weeks before the elected government was driven from power. They knew what was happening because they were running the insurrection in Kiev. After Crimea, Lugansk, and Donetz voted for separation, then in the next 2 Ukrainian elections, the population voted massively for the candidates who campaigned for no war with Russia. For peace. They thus chose Poreshenko and then Zelenski. Both of whom campaigned for peace, deceptively, because their intent and actions once in power were for war.

The Ukrainian people do not want to be hostile towards Russia. They do not want NATO. They have said so in 3 successive elections.

Posted by: Tulips | Jul 11 2023 18:12 utc | 69

I see this as more an attempt by the US and "NATO" to cut their losses.

They are facing an end - whether they want it or not - dictated by Russia, who holds all the cards. At the moment the LOC is stable, but could easily turn in Russia's favour by the collective force of a collapse of the Ukrainians and an new offensive by the RF.

IF the SMO is stopped ("ends") at this juncture, Russia is declared victor, and Ukraine, which will no longer be "fighting" could then join NATO. Freezing all the territorial gains made by the oligarchs, corporations such as Blackrock and Vanguard, the MIC and enforcing the vassalage of the EU.
***

I am not saying that Russia will necessarily agree to this. Just that the USUK and NATO must try by any means to gain time, a breathing space to ....... increase weapons production, and reinforce industry.

A temporary loosing situation, easily dissembled in the internet as an gesture for "peace", a new grain deal and other "humanitarian" aims.

That is all that will happen, a verbal and verbose "peace" is declared to reset Ukraine within NATO.

It may not even mean eliminating sanctions
****

sean the leprechaun | Jul 11 2023 17:24 utc | 34

"take it to the bank, it's all in the wording. Major moves are afoot to bring the SMO to an end, any end. Once it ends, the Ukraine will be given immediate NATO status.
Since Russia can not move the LOC, dreams of freeing Kherson, Zaprosia, and the Odessa pipe dream, ain't gonna happen."

But would the Russians buy it? It fits with the MsM theme that they are desperate for peace. Much less with the situation.

Posted by: Stonebird | Jul 11 2023 18:14 utc | 70

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 11 2023 18:06 utc | 65

The word criminal is misplaced in this sentence, it fits before 'instrument'.

==================

Good one!

I can't think of a single leading US political voice that has clearly stated that the Russian approach is justified unless you include a couple of pundit voices like MacGregor. Trump doesn't criticize Russia all that much, I don't think, but mainly boasts about he could have and/or will be able to handle Putin easily (which might even be true). RFK admits that NATO-US provoked Russia but then also labels Putin a thug and RF actions in Donbass unjustified etc.

None of them really go up against the neocon-Zionists, Big Finance or the MIC (same thing, different departments).

And yet the vast majority of Americans don't want war, don't give a fig about Zion and would like an economy run on honest money not by criminal credit cartels.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 18:16 utc | 71

js | Jul 11 2023 18:06 utc | 63
There's some disconnect with reality in the argument that failure of Ukraine's offensive should be seen as a decisive defeat. Is it really that?

The thing is, they did their offense in a way that has caused heavy duty losses in troop and equipment. That, I think, causes it to be treated as a defeat.

Posted by: Jmaas | Jul 11 2023 18:18 utc | 72

A trained monkey could have figured out this outcome months ago. Delusion, denial, deceit works both ways in NATO land.

Posted by: JustTruth | Jul 11 2023 18:19 utc | 73

According to Prof. Jade McGlynn, research fellow of The Department of War Studies at King's College London, the word on the ground in Ukraine is that it's not a question of 'if,' but of 'when' Russia will begin targeting Ukraine's nuclear industry infrastructure. She concludes with this quite concerning assessment:

"In the absence of such efforts, much of Europe remains hostage to fortune. World leaders must now face up to some tough decisions, rather than giving in once more to Russian blackmail or ignoring the problem until it starts to radiate into Ukraine’s atmosphere – and beyond."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jul/11/russia-nuclear-plants-ukrainians-putin-ukraine

Posted by: Celtia | Jul 11 2023 18:25 utc | 74

The problem with the American people is that they are UNCULTURED.....

Posted by: AI | Jul 11 2023 18:26 utc | 75

And yet the vast majority of Americans don't want war, don't give a fig about Zion and would like an economy run on honest money not by criminal credit cartels.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 18:16 utc | 71

Yep.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 11 2023 18:26 utc | 76

Zelensky cheered and applauded in Vilnius Lithuania today, no surprise there as Lithuania has a history of Nazism and Neo-Nazism, the EU knows this.


https://www.europarl.europa.eu/doceo/document/E-7-2012-006775_EN.html

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jul 11 2023 18:27 utc | 77

Amazing that Ursula von der Leyen is a front runner for leading NATO.

I'm sure her gynecology background will be helpful in this endeavor, and not make NATO the laughingstock of the world or anything like that.

Posted by: Sideshow Bob | Jul 11 2023 18:28 utc | 78

One assumes Taiwan is paying attention to Ukraine's fate.

Posted by: Passerby | Jul 11 2023 18:29 utc | 79

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 18:01 utc | 61

It's both frightening and hilarious how the (mostly) American right continues to find currency to this day in the word "commie." They say that the John Birch Society was a fringe movement, but it appears that the right-fringe of the USA seems to get a surprising amount of traction in the "liberal" corporate media and with radicalleftistcorporatedemocrats, not to mention Republicans. LOL - I mean, they control the SCOTUS and HoR, so....

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 11 2023 18:30 utc | 80

Ya, I'm waiting for the DOG to bite the hand that feeds it...

Posted by: T S | Jul 11 2023 18:31 utc | 81

Posted by: Passerby | Jul 11 2023 18:29 utc | 80

And Iraq's....and Vietnam's....and Libya's....and Afghanistan's....and Haiti's....and the Native Americans'....

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jul 11 2023 18:31 utc | 82

Posted by: hopehely | Jul 11 2023 17:54 utc | 54
"> The sooner the Ukrainian Government realizes this, the better off they will be.
Those bastards are fully aware of that. Don't give them the benefit of doubt"

I don't necessarily disagree with you. However, today Aleksey Danilov said that NATO is looking at Ukraine 'through Russian eyes,' and that 'The thing is that the textbooks used by students, who graduate from respected Western universities, including American, British ones, were written by Russians.' This is absolutely not seeing NATO for what it is, and rather looking at NATO through a Russophobic lens. It would appear that at least Mr. Danilov has not figured it out.

Posted by: Caveman | Jul 11 2023 18:32 utc | 83

Posted by: Celtia | Jul 11 2023 18:25 utc | 75

World leaders must now face up to some tough decisions, rather than giving in once more to Russian blackmail

These "world leaders" all speak as if they can actually do something.

It's not as if they can punish Russia for attacking nuclear stations.

They are powerless in a military sense.
The only power left to them is "Peace".

No decision they make other than agreeing to Russia's original demands will prevent a nuclear catastrophe if that is truly what they fear.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jul 11 2023 18:34 utc | 84

The word criminal is misplaced in this sentence, it fits before 'instrument'.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jul 11 2023 18:06 utc | 65

---

As far as I understand it, West is kind of the Erdogan of the pseudo-left in the US.

Posted by: Nobody | Jul 11 2023 18:35 utc | 85

"The Ukrainian people do not want to be hostile towards Russia. They do not want NATO. They have said so in 3 successive elections."

Tulips | Jul 11 2023 18:12 utc | 69

That's true. Yet one of NATO's main demands at Vilnius was 'the need for democratic reform' which suggests they know Ukraine is far from being a democracy. Whatever democracy means these days.

Posted by: dh | Jul 11 2023 18:37 utc | 86

Clueless Jo @56. I wholeheartedly agree with you there. They have built up Zelensky to such a height that I think he actually believes he is some deity. I don't know how the West can stand all this 'we need more weapons etc etc' all the time. Ukraine has been armed to the teeth before this and presently. Macron is just a stupid little financier who, rather than take responsibility for the situation in France at the moment, is going to send more weapons to Ukraine (Cruise missiles) just to take the heat off himself. Well, these 2 little runts (oops nearly mispelt that!) Zelensky and Macron have made a massive mistake. As Peskov said today, that would be bad for Ukraine because of course, Russia will have to respond which will be terrible for Ukraine.

Looks to me as though if Zelensky had some cojones he would do a pivot towards Russia for a settlement. He will not though. He still thinks he is entitled to all the US$billions he has made and wants more.

Posted by: Jo Dominich | Jul 11 2023 18:39 utc | 87

Wow, went to compose my latest substack and returned to find a new article with 86 comments already. I did include today's Global Times editorial on the issue, which was very forceful and for what I believe is the first time spoke for all Asia--Yankee Go Home!! Now to read what's here.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jul 11 2023 18:39 utc | 88

NATO could have disbanded in concert with the Warsaw Pact. Bill Clinton's foreign policy team, Russophobes all, demanded to march NATO to Russia's western front and flanks, then over them into Russia if economic and covert subversion of Russian institutions had not already made a full military occupation there a mere walk over.

Now NATO must surrender to Russia, unconditionally, and perforce disband. How many problems does this solve? EBB might sing of them, "Let me count the ways . . . ."

I believe this is the decision arrived at by Presidents Putin and Xi during their recent gatherings in Moscow: NATO must surrender and disband, some 30 years after the opportunity emerged for NATO's voluntary sensibleness.

Posted by: The Rev. David R. Gr | Jul 11 2023 18:41 utc | 89

Peter b @ 51

So, a country cannot join NATO (No Arms or Accetance To Offer) if it is at War, but, "technically," Ukraine is not War, but is being subject to a Special Military Operation. Was Putin intentionally leaving open the option for the Ukraine to join NATO?

Dear me, NATO doesn’t need Ukraine to be a part of it or declaring art. 5 to come to Ukraine’s aid, it can just declare it’s own SMO and attack Russia like it did Afghanistan, Iraq, Libia, Syria. It’s rather unlikely Taiwan will join NATO yet the goal is to pivot NATO to the Pacific against the Chinese. What Putin did in 2022 was avoid WW3 in 2024.

Stonebird @ 70

At the moment the LOC is stable, but could easily turn in Russia's favour by the collective force of a collapse of the Ukrainians and an new offensive by the RF.

For Russia to move forward it would have to move into the open fields, the killing fields they encountered before their fall pullback and that are now devastating the Ukrainian offensive. They'd be once again UKR's grey zone facing UKR's layered defensive lines. I'm sure the MoD and the govt. has thought this true, doesn't mean they came up with a good solution.

I think in large part this is what cluster fiesta is about, preventing a Russian offensive once this UKR offensive is exhausted - open fields and cluster munitions.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 11 2023 18:43 utc | 90

Posted by: Celtia | Jul 11 2023 18:25 utc | 75

Wow, a nobody who knows nothing said something, to the presses!

Look! She used the cliche, "its not a matter of if, but when". Disturbing, bizarre and ominous. The walls are closing in!

Posted by: UWDude | Jul 11 2023 18:44 utc | 91

Posted by: Apollyon | Jul 11 2023 17:49 utc | 48
Posted by: Zet | Jul 11 2023 18:00 utc | 60

Those are not new pledges, they are just repeating packages all ready publicised. Which had been kind of a habit of the collective west during this war.

Posted by: Jörgen Hassler | Jul 11 2023 18:44 utc | 92

report on Twitter that the Ukrainian delegation had made a request in the summit that Ukrainian military aged men be returned from Euro countries.

If this is true, then watch feathers fly as the EU press gangs start rounding up hapless Ukrainian lounge lizards who have been living large. There are 10 million Ukrainian citizens in the EU and England. All registered and easy pickings.

Posted by: Exile | Jul 11 2023 18:48 utc | 93

The idea is for the US and Britain is to convert Ukraine war into an existential issue for Europe. If that happens the EU will be destroyed itself leaving only NATO which is exactly what Britain and the US wants.

Ukraine was and will always be a existential issue for Russia so that part is easy. Ukraine on the EU side was just a hinterland buffer zone with nearly 0 strategic importance for the EU. However the US and Britain see it as a way to weaken the EU and Russia with the same stone.

Britain for the last 500 years played the continental nations against themselves so that it will never face strong force from that direction. Further the UK leads US presidents around by the nose to the detriment of the US. Example: Vietnam, Korea, Iraq Syria Libya are only recent events where the British use US Rhodes Scholars to suck the US into useless conflicts. They love events that weakened US finances influence hard and soft power. Not to mention how they undermined the 2016 election with the Trump papers. We are fools to think that they are our friends.

Posted by: ATM | Jul 11 2023 18:50 utc | 94

Somebody mentioned the west using military contractors to avoid article 5 on another thread.

I wouldn't rule that out. These guys are delusional and perversely obsessed with Putin. I can't see them just walking away. Remember it took them 20 years to get the memo that Afghanistan was lost.

Doubtless, Russia's awesome military power will accelerate that process, but they are nuts, so the message will have to be really drilled in before they truly abandon their Nazis in the Ukraine.

Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 11 2023 18:50 utc | 95

Exile @ 94

There are 10 million Ukrainian citizens in the EU and England. All registered and easy pickings.

Those on state support are woman and children, probably half, rest not on the dole obviously have money and can just enjoy themselves even more globe hopping. Few hapless souls might be picked up, maybe in Poland or Germany but I doubt that's worth the terrible PR of dragging resisting Ukrainians to a war they manifestly don't believe in.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 11 2023 18:57 utc | 96

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jul 11 2023 18:43 utc | 91
Posted by: Peter b | Jul 11 2023 17:52 utc | 51

It is quite simple. Let's take a hypothetical scenario where Ukraine would join Nato with full article 5 clause immediately.

Nato would immediately evaporate. It arguably has already evaporated, but we could say that it would remove all doubt about viability of Nato. It would evaporate simply because a lot of bordering Russian countries suddenly find themselves at war with Russia. Most likely, western and southern European countries like Greece, Spain, Portugal and Bulgaria will immediately say sayonara. French will say good luck to the Poles. Germans will make a few hick-ups and then simply say it isn't my problem.

If Nato would try to mobilize in western Europe, it will result immediately in islamic caliphates popping all over Europe. Also due to the economic problems which will follow after reducing social welfare, will result in social cohesion declining. European economies are already broken down, but they would very well break down even further. This will also collapse the US as European clients no longer have any basis to buy US weapons.

Even if Ukraine joins after its war ends one way or the other, there is a high possibility that Europe will collapse in a similar fashion, were Nato brave enough to create a war with some false flag incident.

Posted by: unimperator | Jul 11 2023 18:59 utc | 97

I can't think of a single leading US political voice that has clearly stated that the Russian approach is justified unless you include a couple of pundit voices like MacGregor. Trump doesn't criticize Russia all that much, I don't think, but mainly boasts about he could have and/or will be able to handle Putin easily (which might even be true). RFK admits that NATO-US provoked Russia but then also labels Putin a thug and RF actions in Donbass unjustified etc.

None of them really go up against the neocon-Zionists, Big Finance or the MIC (same thing, different departments).

And yet the vast majority of Americans don't want war, don't give a fig about Zion and would like an economy run on honest money not by criminal credit cartels.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jul 11 2023 18:16 utc | 71

And therein lies the problem. Even critics of US actions always feel the need to add the caveat that goes 'Putin's illegal invasion of Ukraine.' Thus giving the propagandists a free pass to continue to demonize Putin, the scaffolding of their propaganda. More commentators need to just come out and SAY it: US actions gave Russia no other choice but to go in. 1)NATO expansion into Ukraine was an intolerable security threat to Russia and 2)Russia could not sit idly by while the fascist Kiev regime engaged in ethnic cleansing of Ukraine's ethnic Russian minority, while a potential genocide was brewing. Simple as that. Conciliatory half measures simply don't work.

Americans are lazy and morally ambiguous. They don't want to do the hard thinking to learn the history of US foreign policy. Because if one knows that history, one can only conclude that it is thoroughly criminal, assuming that one has some sort of moral compass to process the information. Ukraine challenges the average American, because asking them to view Russia's actions in light of past US actions is asking them to come to grips with US criminality, something they very much don't want to do. So much easier to assume a contrived moral superiority, indulge in sports and shopping, than to come to grips with such a thing. They will only move out of their delusional fantasy world when reality bites them in the arse, hard.

Posted by: Mike R | Jul 11 2023 19:01 utc | 98

Ukraine threatened to acquire nuclear weapons at the 2021 NATO summit. I expect that they have already done so. The nukes be flying soon.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Jul 11 2023 19:02 utc | 99

Russia's awesome military power will accelerate that process
Posted by: Ahenobarbus | Jul 11 2023 18:50 utc | 96

Right... Until then it doesn't look like they are awesome at anything:
"Ukrainian Armed Forces hit the city of Tokmak in the Zaporozhye region with cluster munitions, according to the emergency services of the region."

Posted by: rk | Jul 11 2023 19:06 utc | 100

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