Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 28, 2023
Ukraine SitRep: Prigozhin Affair – Kramatorsk Missile Attack – Updated

Updated below – June 29, 13:55 UTC

There is still some fallout from the Prigozhin affair.

The U.S. propaganda campaign that falsely claims that Russia has been weakened by Wagner's armed mutiny continues. While citing only 'western' intelligence affiliated sources the Washington Post headlines Putin’s standing as global strongman in jeopardy after revolt. Where please is evidence for that?

The New York Times assists in a useless attempt to sow fear and doubt on the Russian side:

A senior Russian general had advance knowledge of Yevgeny Prigozhin’s plans to rebel against Russia’s military leadership, according to U.S. officials briefed on American intelligence on the matter, which has prompted questions about what support the mercenary leader had inside the top ranks.

The officials said they are trying to learn if Gen. Sergei Surovikin, the former top Russian commander in Ukraine, helped plan Mr. Prigozhin’s actions last weekend, which posed the most dramatic threat to President Vladimir V. Putin in his 23 years in power.

Gen. Sergei Surovikin of course knew that something was up with Wagner. The whole Russian leadership knew of it. Orders were obviously given for everyone to stand down and to let Prigozhin do what he had planned to do.

There was zero action taken by the border guards, the internal security force Rosguardia, by the police and the Russian military. That is unexplainable unless there was an order from very high up to step back instead of seeking a fight. President Putin's primary aim was to avoid unnecessary casualties which he largely achieved.

One miscalculation happened. Wagner had a mobile Pantsir-1 air defense system that tried to cover its convoys on their trip towards Moscow. Several Russian helicopters and a plane where shot down when they came too near to them. It seems that the Pantsirs were a surprise.

Wagner was not supposed to have them:

🌻 Fertilizer Finder 🌻 – @ManiacMagic1 – 19:38 UTC · Jun 27, 2023

A source in the Russian Defense Ministry reports that neither the Ministry of Defense nor the Tula machine-building plant "Scheglovsky Val" sold Yevgeny Prigozhin and his firms the Pantsir S-1 anti-aircraft missile system worth more than $14,000,000. How the "Pantsir" ended up in the possession of the terrorist organization "PMC Wagner" and whether the governor of the Tula region Alexei Dyumin is involved in this, are now being investigated by the investigators of the GVSU of the ICR and the SU of the FSB.
Embedded video

The source above is pro-Ukrainian so this might be another false claim intelligence play but I think there is some truth to it. Russian air defenses in Ukraine work in an integrated environment where all systems from wide area surveillance and long range defense down to the short range Pantsirs are integrated. Under such a system it never made sense to give Wagner their own independent air defenses. It would instead be provided air cover by the Russian army.

As soon as the Pantsir was observed within the Wagner convoy the Russian military should have shut down the air space near Wagner's route. That it did not immediately do so was a mistake that cost it several capable pilots.

There is still the open question of how many Wagner people were actually involved in the affair. History Legend has counted the transport equipment in the various convoys and estimates 1,500 to 2,000. The number seems reasonable. It means that large majority of the current 20,000 Wagner fighters did not take part in the affair.

In his latest speech Putin said that Prigozhin catering business with the army as well as his other business will now come under scrutiny. There was without doubt some over-billing and fraud involved. Prigozhin should have know that under Putin's regime oligarchs are not allowed to intervene in politics. Putin successfully fought against those oligarchs who tried as soon as he came to power. Prigozhin's attempt to get Defense Minister Shoigu and General Gerasimov fired was such an intervention. It will likely cost him his business.

Yesterday there was a Russian* missile strike of unknown provenance* on a hotel complex in Kramatorsk:

The missile tore into the crowded Ria Lounge restaurant at dinnertime on Tuesday, setting off a large blaze that burned for more than two hours. By Wednesday afternoon, the Ukrainian authorities said that 10 people had been confirmed dead — including 14-year-old twin sisters — and 61 others were wounded."

Video from the scene taken immediately after the event show English speaking men with the one helping a wounded exposing a quad angle tattoo with the number 3 written in it on his right arm (see at 7 sec in).


bigger

This is said to be a sign of the 3rd Ranger Battalion of the U.S. army which is a part of the U.S. special operation forces.

Another video taken during rubble clearing at night has a (British?) English speaker saying "Look what these bastards are doing to this country. There's soldiers under this rubble all over."

This seems to confirm that the hotel complex and its restaurant were not exclusively used for civilian purposes but housed and catered to foreign soldiers.

*Update – June 29, 13:55 UTC:

The June 29, 2023 report by the Russian Defense Ministry on the daily operation in Ukraine says (machine translation):

According to updated information, as a result of a high-precision strike on June 27 in the city of Kramatorsk, Donetsk People's Republic, at the point of temporary deployment of the 56th separate motorized infantry brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, two generals participating in the headquarters meeting, up to 50 officers of the armed forces of Ukraine, as well as up to 20 foreign mercenaries and military personnel were destroyed.

Comments

Definitely South African or Zimbabwe,i have heard enough of that accent since the days of the Apartheid Nazi Regime,i hope many of those bastards went down with that hotel.

Posted by: Englishman | Jun 28 2023 19:40 utc | 101

Posted by: AndC | Jun 28 2023 19:38 utc | 100
1) Prigozhin went rogue and knowingly did a kamikaze move.
2) Prigozhin along with Russian intelligence staged the whole thing.

Or 3) Prigozhin lost some marbles and bearings in battle and had convinced himself the regular troops and Russian people would rally to his cause once he got his rebellion on the move; ‘Cos he da big brave man.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 19:42 utc | 102

Posted by: AobhOSeachnasaigh | Jun 28 2023 19:11 utc | 81
Not Afrikaner. English-speaking South African. Probably Durban, Natal Province.

Posted by: EvN | Jun 28 2023 19:43 utc | 103

@EvN | Jun 28 2023 19:43 utc | 104
Agree. See my #84

Posted by: Don Firineach | Jun 28 2023 19:46 utc | 104

Posted by: AndC | Jun 28 2023 19:38 utc | 100
Based on Prigozhin’s situation, only 1) is probable. As I said, sometimes things are exactly as they seem to be. Prigozhin was about to lose a huge chunk of his income, authority and credibility when the MoD took Wagner away from him. As I said in the previous thread, the reason he was bitching for the last six months is because he wanted out of Ukraine because having Wagner tied up there was cutting into his profits from his side businesses which depend on Wagner’s PMC activities in other parts of the world. The final straw was when he realized that his bitching and Wagner’s success in urban assault was resulting in the MoD’s cutting him off and taking his golden goose from him.
You have to also remember that he was nothing but a front man for the GRU and SVR. BUT he was also a criminal-minded individual – basically a thug (just look at him!) – and he had his own ambitions.
As others have said, Putin is not going to go through this sort of thing willingly – it’s too risky. Also, we have yet to see any outcome which would justify such an operation as 2). So 2) is highly, highly improbable in comparison with 1) – so much so, that I dismiss it completely except for my usual 2% willingness to consider anything.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 19:47 utc | 105

89 – I don’t see Prigozhin as that kind of person – admiring Ukraine for its single-mindedness etc. He is basically a mercenary. (If he does genuinely admire 404 like that, then there are serious grounds to consider him an enemy agent. Besides the other serious grounds…)

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 19:48 utc | 106

98 – Same party, but not Blair. This guy was further down the hierarchy and could not keep it out of the papers, whereas Blair was probably being protected. Indecent behaviour in public toilets is not that unusual among British politicians and sometimes they can’t even stop it from being reported. Then they wonder why people don’t bother voting in elections…

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 19:52 utc | 107

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 19:42 utc | 103
I actually think that option is on a par with the previously suggested 2) above.
Prigozhin is a criminal and a thug. As others have suggested, he probably is more concerned about himself than being a “patriot”. He probably regards patriots as self-sacrificing losers, his rhetoric not withstanding. Most criminals are con artists to at least a limited degree; in any event, they lie well. As others have pointed out, reportedly he said one thing at the start of the stunt and a more likely reason at the end – that Wagner was being taken away from him.
Of course, Wagner was never “his” – it was the GRU and SVR’s deniable asset. He was merely the front man. But he was making money from that front position – and now it was going away, both by being stuck in Ukraine and then by the MoD taking Wagner away and obsoleting his front man position.
The most probable motivation for his last desperate move is the idea that he could pressure his former acquaintance Putin to let him keep Wagner by telling Shoigu to not take Wagner away.
He failed. It’s all that simple.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 19:54 utc | 108

Prigo was bought and recruited by Western and Ukrainian intelligence during or before the battle of Bakhmut. During the battle he and/or his handlers decided to use Wagner PMC as a tool against the Russian State – to weaken it and to create command paralysis at the right moment.
The first step was to split Wagner from the Russian Army and create among the troops hatred against the MoD and the Russian General Staff. To do this, Prigo increased operational tempo in Bakhmut beyond ammunition resources and that way basically started killing his own troops in large numbers. He then turned their attention to the carnage he himself had engineered and started blaming the “corrupt Russian system” – apart from Putin who was too popular to go after. The goal was to alienate and anger Wagner troops and to turn them into willing tools for the plan.
After Bakhmut, Prigo followed the plan concocted by his handlers. He escalated the corruption accusations and created victimhood and persecution mentality among his troops. He also tried to create doubts among Russian troops in general by articulating Ukrainian talking points and outright lies about the situation on the battlefields and the origin of the conflict. According to him there was never any Ukrainian aggression toward Donbass and the Russian leadership was lying about battlefield progress. These talking points and their aims have clear Western and Ukrainian fingerprints.
While this was going on, the Ukrainian offensive wasn’t going well and Russian lines hadn’t been breached. It was, nevertheless, decided (perhaps a month ago) to carry the coup out between June 20 and June 30. Ukrainian forces would be assembled and prepared for the great paralysis offensive, in case the coup was successful. The constraining factor was the increased pressure on Prigo from the Russian MoD. They insisted he signed a contract which would essentially remove him from Wagner. Prigo stalled and basically went into hiding to prevent the Russian authorities from arresting him or simply killing him.
The coup started according to plan and, as Prigo and his Western handlers had expected, the Russian Government was hesitant to fight them all-out on Russian soil. Prigo went to Rostov on Don and talked love and justice like a sixties hippie – and demanded to have Shoigu and Konashenkov brought to him to give them a stern talking-to. The Wagner troops were polite and avoided any confrontation. They were there for justice, peace and love – unless the evil Russian Army attacked of course.
While this was going on, the Russian Army noticed significant movements of Ukrainian troops in the south during the night and started bombing them vigorously. The Ukrainians kept preparing and waited for coup success and Russian paralysis.
The color revolution branded “March for Justice” started when Prigo sent a significant number of his most brainwashed Wagner troops toward Moscow. These troops were expendable and were, if the plan succeeded, all going to be killed or captured. Their only purpose in (what remained of) their lives was to force the Russian Government to engage in battles in the Moscow area, simulating a civil war.
As the Wagner suicide columns approached Moscow, the Ukrainian terrorist cells in the city would be activated. They would carry out a number of attacks all over the city to engineer massive confusion and the impression that the Government had lost control. Chaos in the city and battles in the outskirts would create disbelief and shock among the Russian people and Russian soldiers, and hopefully total chaos in the command structure, resulting in paralysis. At that point the big Ukrainian attack would start.
Then things went bad. The chaos in Moscow didn’t materialize and the Russian government avoided all out attacks on the columns. Perhaps they knew what the plan was and acted accordingly, who knows. Chaos and uncertainty in both Russian society and the Army also failed to materialize as Russians decided not to panic, and instead supported their Government. Seeing this disaster unfold, with no paralysis visible, the Ukrainian NATO army cancelled their big offensive.
At that point Prigo realized he had failed and a theater production starring Lukashenko was arranged to wind things down. Prigo went into exile in Belarus and the Wagner suicide troops went back to their barracks. I don’t see a bright future for Prigo, unless he can bust out of Belarus and get to the West.
So, in conclusion, this wasn’t necessarily a coup. Maybe there were traitors waiting in the wings to seize power, but it is more likely that the objectives were simply to weaken the Russian State through chaos, and to enable command paralysis so that the Ukrainians could break through the Russian defense lines – thereby weakening the Russian State further.
I have no idea if this is the correct interpretation of events or not. It’s just idle speculation, but who knows…
Gaius Baltar

Posted by: Gaius Baltar post | Jun 28 2023 19:58 utc | 109

For all those talking about downed planes and helicopters? Have you actually seen the photos? A lot I saw had a still right-side up helicopter burned , but leaving the propellers and tail – wing and rotor mysteriously unburned and unbent ,unmarred. Others also said this could reasonably only happen if the helicopter was torched when it was already on the ground!
Anyone seen bodies yet? Funerals? Crying mothers , wives and children? Seen Putin at such a funeral for the PR at least (I actually believe Putin is the most sincere politician in such things) ? Witnesses to say they saw planes /helicopters fell out of the sky? Saw the bodies straight after?
Until you can show me evidence that is countervailing enough, we can only say it was a masterfully- executed deception.

Posted by: Boy | Jun 28 2023 20:01 utc | 110

Re: Pantsirs
The Pantsirs are fully capable of operating alone. “Wagner” had some Pantsirs in Libya, said to have come from the UAE. Some may have been destroyed by Turkish Bayraktar drones. There were also some isolated sightings of Pantsirs in Donbass in the 2010s, long before the start of the SMO.
Fighterbomber posted a video of two Wagner Pantsirs on Saturday at 11.45 Moskov time. I shared the link here.

Residents report that PMCs drove through Buturlinovka without stopping towards Talovaya.
The video shows the city center.
https://t.me/fighter_bomber/12889

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 28 2023 20:03 utc | 111

Presidential elections are scheduled to be held in Russia on Sunday, 17 March. I suppose, until then not much of a change in the MoD structure would happen.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 20:04 utc | 112

@b (emphasis added):

There was zero action taken by the border guards, the internal security force Rosguardia, by the police and the Russian military. That is unexplainable unless there was an order from very high up to step back instead of seeking a fight.

Russian Telegram channel Dva mayora on a possible criminal case against a border guard officer (emphasis added):

Regarding the situation at the border that became known yesterday, with the breakthrough of a checkpoint by a column of armored vehicles of the Wagner PMC.
The issue of initiating a criminal case against the border guard officer is being decided. Because he let the Wagners through.
First. Border guards do not shoot at their own. Today the task of the former border troops is to protect the border: to fight during the first hour, then withdraw after the arrival of the troops of the Ministry of Defense.
Second. There is neither the strength nor the means to resist the PMC (there are no more motorized maneuverable groups), and most importantly, there is no desire.
Third. An officer with a small number of personnel and weak weapons made a decision, he wanted to enter into negotiations. With the head of the Wagner column. But a helicopter flew in and hit the convoy, which provoked PMC to fire mortars at the checkpoint.
Then the column passed through.
Tell me, if the criminal case against Prigozhin has been closed and all the participants in the rebellion have been forgiven, is it possible to also save the officers who avoided bloodshed from such a selective application of criminal law?
We are asking high-ranking officials to pay attention to this case. The fate of the officer is at stake.

Russian Telegram channel Romanov Light on a possible criminal case against helicopter pilots (emphasis added):

Flyers have contacted us:
There is also a threat of a criminal case being initiated against the pilots who refused to comply with the order to strike at the column.
At least 4 crews refused to follow the order of the CGS [Chief of the General Staff — S]—due to the fact that there were a huge number of civilian vehicles nearby.
The call to initiate a criminal case comes from the commander of 4A [4th Air and Air Defence Forces Army — S].
/ To these flyers: Thank You for saving civilian lives!

Posted by: S | Jun 28 2023 20:05 utc | 113

Posted by: Gaius Baltar post | Jun 28 2023 19:58 utc | 110
Bullshit. From the first sentence. As you say, “idle speculation” – to which this site is unfortunately frequently subject to.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:05 utc | 114

Posted by: AndC | Jun 28 2023 19:38 utc | 100
or 3, like Ramon Guaido, he did what the US paid him to do, to be part of a pr campaign along with the failing Ukrainian counteroffensive which, in the minds of its planners, was going to be a success. in reality, neither had a hope in hell of working, but it’s all about the propaganda.
thanks b, for continuing to report on this episode, there is so much noise from the NAFO trolls and msm and people who have adopted the idea that this was all a psyop as a theological position. oligarhs gonna oligarch, whether it hurts Russia or not. just like in the 1990’s, and continuing into the present.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 28 2023 20:08 utc | 115

Posted by: S | Jun 28 2023 20:05 utc | 114
——————
The Two majors post was at 12.57 Moscow time today. Too old.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 20:09 utc | 116

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 19:48 utc | 107
yeah and it doesn’t explain his statement echoing standard NATO propaganda, like Russia started the war needlessly etc. he got paid. he’s Ramon Guaidovich.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 28 2023 20:10 utc | 117

And, the Romanov’s post is yesterday’s…

Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 20:10 utc | 118

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 19:52 utc | 108
Ahh .Ok then,and thanks . I will probably track down who this fellow was just for the exercise.Lol

Posted by: Boy | Jun 28 2023 20:11 utc | 119

I will post the Dnieper River topographic map again to illustrate the terrain surrounding UAF’s amphibious LOL “bridgehead”. You’re welcome.

Posted by: sln2002 | Jun 28 2023 20:12 utc | 120

Posted by b on June 28, 2023 at 16:28 UTC

.. This seems to confirm that the hotel complex and its restaurant were not exclusively used for civilian purposes but housed and catered to foreign soldiers. ..

those ‘locations’, a lot are also verified in Kiew, so it’s not a matter of “seems to confirm ..” but to have a concrete “further look” against that foreign hidden “Intel-meetings”, that are planning the new counter-state activities towards Moscow ..

Posted by: spare_truth | Jun 28 2023 20:12 utc | 121

@b:

Prigozhin should have know that under Putin’s regime oligarchs are not allowed to intervene in politics.

Which means they are not oligarchs—they are mere billionaires.
At the same time, some U.S. billionaires have such a large influence on U.S. politics that they should really be called oligarchs.

Posted by: S | Jun 28 2023 20:15 utc | 122

confusing an Australian and South African accent has given great offence
@ Patroklos | Jun 28 2023 19:28 utc | 93
I learn something every day, amongst esteemed barflies!
You’re right about US American accent-detection: we’re terrible at it. Some of us can just barely distinguish Canadians. TV accents hew close to Californian, and anything non-Californian, without any (vanishing) eastern notes, sounds “down south” to us.
But you may not need to get quite so worked up about it — as if your Oz sense of national honor (make that honour) has been besmirched.
On a related note, the use of “bastards” as a shibboleth to distinguish various English-language accents is an intriguing concept.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 28 2023 20:16 utc | 123

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 28 2023 20:03 utc | 112
Thanks for the link. Yes, i thought I’d seen them, but couldn’t remember whether they were on transporters or not. The one tank they had was on a transporter except for the time it was in Rostov.
So clearly they had them. The questions remain: 1) were they supposed to have them; 2) did someone in the regular army “loan” them or was part of the stunt; 3) were they operational, i.e., turned on and ready for action with operators who knew what they were doing, which would imply either Wagner operators with previous experience or regular army?

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:16 utc | 124

Posted by: Boy | Jun 28 2023 20:01 utc | 111
I agree. There WAS a report of an Mi-8 helicopter making a “hard landing” with someone injured. Whether that was related to any Wagner action was not stated, but possibly it was. Perhaps one of the choppers shadowing the Wagner convoy had a malfunction and had to land “hard”, was damaged and subsequently torched by someone.
Who knows? Could be anything. But without more evidence than I’ve seen so far – crappy videos of a random plane, and another video of some helicopter which was alleged to have blown up an oil depot supposedly to deter the convoy – which seems highly unlikely – I still call bullshit on the aircraft loss count and pilot deaths.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:20 utc | 125

I have no idea if this is the correct interpretation of events or not. It’s just idle speculation, but who knows…
Gaius Baltar
Posted by: Gaius Baltar post | Jun 28 2023 19:58 utc | 110
Interesting speculation on the events.

Posted by: jpc | Jun 28 2023 20:22 utc | 126

I have no idea if this is the correct interpretation of events or not. It’s just idle speculation, but who knows…
Gaius Baltar
Posted by: Gaius Baltar post | Jun 28 2023 19:58 utc | 110
Interesting speculation on the events.

Posted by: jpc | Jun 28 2023 20:22 utc | 127

I find the Pantsir-1 air defense system embedded in the mercenary column on route to Moscow hard to believe. It make more sense if this is just information warfare and thus fake news.
Call me lazy for only relying on Rybar to see if he made any mention about it but I couldn’t find any. My other usual news channels also didn’t make any mention of Pantsir-1. I did see one video where an Alligator evades a MANPAD missile but that doesn’t mean anything of course. It makes a lot more sense if the mercenary column was flooded with various kinds of MANPAD’s including trophy ones and started shooting those VKS planes and helicopters. Probably we’ll never know who fired first.

Posted by: xor | Jun 28 2023 20:22 utc | 128

The rescue attempts following the Kramartorsk attack remind me of similar Russian attacks in Syria on ISIS groups. The western MSM would shriek a civilian target was hit, yet all the first responders were military aged, fit young men.
Just today, the Ukrainians fired at civilian targets in the Petrovsky district of Donetsk, killing a woman. Other injuries not reported.
https://t.me/Reality_Theories/12832
Just another day of Ukrainian shelling of civilians in east Ukraine, consistent over the last 8 years.

Posted by: Arfur Mo | Jun 28 2023 20:23 utc | 129

Not sure why I want to weigh in on the Wagner operetta, with so many unknowns and a frankly bizarre scenography.
I find the idea of a Russia-initiated psyop implausible. With everything already going Russia’s way, militarily but also geopolitically–Russia ideally positioned for a long war, civil economy and civil society humming along, positive vibes all round–there is *almost* no outcome of a successful operation (setting aside the potential downsides not just of failure but in success also–e.g., dead pilots) worth doing this.
The one potential exception to this is perhaps that the Russia Civil War prospect might ensure that the ZNPP false-flag goes back on the shelf for a while. It also makes continued and even increased levels of the same feckless NATO “equip, guide and train” strategy used to date (rather, say, than the more desperate coalition of the willing).
After taking in some perspectives–Johnson, Giraldi, Schreyer–the most plausible hypothesis I can offer (myself):
1. At some point (perhaps even pre-SMO) Prigozhin is approached by Western intel.
2. Prigozhin, at this point:
* is receptive AND
* begins to turn OR
* takes this to GRU/Putin OR
* is informed by GRU/Putin that they know the approach has happened.
3. Prior to the SMO, and up until the new territories became Russia, Wagner’s legal position was unproblematic. After Donbass becomes Russia, Wagner operates in a legal gray zone. During Bakhmut operation, Wagner’s leverage reaches its apex, but it’s clear MoD/Putin is going to reduce Wagner’s independence. Though Prigozhin seems to understand & initially assents to Operation MeatGrinder he sees the strategy, which also attrits Wagner, as all too consonant with MoD’s intention to cut Wagner down to size.
4. The anti-General-Staff PR campaign begins. If Western intel hasn’t already established contacts, this would be the moment, and it’s inconceivable that GRU/FSB do not see Prigo as a prime recruitment target by then.
5. At this point Prigo should be clever enough to know this, and can only keep functioning if he at least seems to be working with RF Intel against West intel. He may in fact be ready to go either way, depending on how things break–GRU/FSB will likely only consider giving him rope if there are reasonable prospects of rolling up the Western networks that Western intel has promised Prigozhin are lying in wait.
5a. To highlight the Byzantine aspect of this game, it’s also likely that any remaining HUMINT competence in the West will know that GRU/FSB is watching him, and he may well be billing himself to CIA/MI6 as a double agent working with GRU. In fact, Western intel may already have fed him a prize traitor to keep GRU on the line. If Prigo betrays West, they’re only out money. But if he takes his shot at a mutiny, it’s all roses (except for that nasty prospect of flipping Russia into war mode entirely).
6. Much if not everything hinges on the success of the Grande Old Offensive. If Russia underperforms, or UKR is even *half* as successful as promised, there may be real opportunities to change the game board for Prigo in Russia–up to and including military mutiny, palace coup by the closet 5th column, civil war, etc. At which point, ZNPP radiological disaster, parallel coup in Belarus, coalition of the willing moves into West UKR and / or across Moldova on Odessa, just as Air Defender 2023 turns into Air Attacker 2023.
7. The more disastrous, however, that the NATO planning & UKR execution are, the more the reputation of the MoD surges, the more chips Prigo must invest in his GRU/FSB handlers, who–with the offensive and Stavka riding high–are prepared to let Prigo now stage a spectacular to see what if any (further) Western networks and assets can be exposed.
8. Prigo’s “Blair Witch Project” video and certain pro-West statements are so overdone, and so off-brand (in the latter case) that the op will not likely expose the most clever or cautious 5th columnists. RF intel may have gained something, but so far almost nothing visible.
9. But now the West knows that Russia knows–and in the attempt, the West has not just committed an egregious act against a Russia at war, but one serious enough to have activated Russia’s nuclear doctrine.
One suspects a real inflection point has been reached, and perhaps Kramatorsk missile strike is the first signal.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 28 2023 20:25 utc | 130

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 28 2023 20:10 utc | 118
No, his latest statements are just bitching because he’s lost, so he makes more accusations against his opponents, the MoD.
This guy is a professional liar. I spent eight years in Federal prison, I know how criminals lie and bullshit. There’s nothing behind anything he says except the one statement that MoD was going to take Wagner away. That is ALL it was about – his loss of income.
No other theory even comes close to the obvious.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:25 utc | 131

@ostro #117:

The Two majors post was at 12.57 Moscow time today. Too old.

No, it was made yesterday at 13:57 Moscow time. Too old for what?
#119:

And, the Romanov’s post is yesterday’s…

Yes, and?
Re-read my comment #114 and try to understand why I wrote it. Hint: pay attention to the bold font.

Posted by: S | Jun 28 2023 20:29 utc | 132

Not Afrikaner. English-speaking South African. Probably Durban, Natal Province.
Posted by: EvN | Jun 28 2023 19:43 utc | 104
I stand corrected. I meant to imply South African.

Posted by: AobhOSeachnasiagh | Jun 28 2023 20:29 utc | 133

Ukrainian Telegram is reporting that Surovikin has been arrested. Russian Telegram, quoting Ukrainian Telegram, is telling their audience what the Ukrainians are reporting. Ukrainian Telegram then reports that Russian Telegram is reporting on Surovikin’s arrest by reporting on their reports. – @stillgray

Posted by: Irish | Jun 28 2023 20:29 utc | 134

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 19:54 utc | 109
A very plausible summary. An overweening ego and money madness are more likely than international intrigues with billion buck bribes from the big man and collusion with CIA spooks IMO.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 20:29 utc | 135

120 – Sexual deviance that ends up in court is not that uncommon in British politics. Especially at the local level. Although if the pol in question rises above a certain level, the state MIGHT protect him or her.

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 20:31 utc | 136

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:25 utc | 132
yeah he knew he was going to lose income. makes the us bribe theory even more plausible. it’s not like he wants to go back to working in the kitchen.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 28 2023 20:35 utc | 137

NY Gulag CoIntel on the rocks. Under Antonov Bridge.
Deputy Surovikin denied rumors of his arrest

Colonel General Andrei Yudin denied the information that he, along with his boss, Colonel General Sergei Surovikin, is in the Lefortovo pre-trial detention center in Moscow. He reported this to Ura.ru..

Vladimir “loose lips” Romanov fingered for mis/mal/disinformation.

Posted by: sln2002 | Jun 28 2023 20:36 utc | 138

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 28 2023 20:16 utc | 124
The casual and indifferent confusion is tantamount to thinking that there’s no difference between South Africans and Australians. Have you ever seen a Canadian react when mistaken for an American? It is a matter of honour. South Africans and Americans are boorish (and Boerish) ignorant bigoted hillbillies—who wouldn’t take offence?

Posted by: Patroklos | Jun 28 2023 20:37 utc | 139

137 – For example, a Labour councillor in Sedgefield, Blair’s own parliamentary constituency, was charged with child molestation. (I don’t know the outcome of the case. He had earlier appeared in a documentary in which he seemed obsessed with combating the problem of dog feces in his ward.)
In fact sometimes it feels as if none of these bastards are normal…

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 20:38 utc | 140

I can think of another reason why border guards, etc.. might have been given an order to stand down – to see who joins the parade and get a better idea of who is loyal and who is not. I read somewhere that Castro did this.

Posted by: ian | Jun 28 2023 20:38 utc | 141

Posted by: xor | Jun 28 2023 20:22 utc | 129
I did see a Pantsir from a more legitimate Russian news site, as I mentioned above. So they were there – unless the video that site relied on was a fake. But I don’t think so. But you’re right, MANPADs would make more sense. I think I saw that video of the chopper dodging a MANPAD, but it was the usual crappy shot at an unknown location, so a waste of time and zero evidence of anything.
RT has this timeline of the incident which includes video clips, although many of them “could not be independently verified”. YMMV
https://www.rt.com/russia/578553-prigozhin-armed-insurrection-updates/

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:39 utc | 142

Richard Steven Hack.
Yes, I looked at your video link.
Fake!
Firemen have stiff body movements and keep looking back at the camera.
The uniforms are crisp and clean, appearing to have never been used. In my country, firemen are always crisp and clean but have observably worn uniforms.
The firemen have no sense of urgency or upset. After all, they have seen dead bodies (where are they ?)
Where are all the townsfolk crying or visibly upset? Surely they would appear in the film. I have seen many real plane crash videos and there are always people oohing and ahhing.
A whole plane or helicopter and all we see is one guy with a hose with the other fellow standing around?
Why do we not see them putting out flames! It is almost like an afterthought. Hey ,lets take some video of slightly smouldering metal with us hosing it.
Where is the scorched grass or grooved blackened skidding of the crash plane/heli in the pasture?
Also gut feeling. It looks staged. Over all, I say it is fake, they burned an already wrecked aeroplane or helicopter for the ruse.

Posted by: Boy | Jun 28 2023 20:39 utc | 143

Re arrests theories, during the Russian Civil War the press outside Russia was constantly running stories of the “Lenin arrests Trotsky”, “Trotsky arrests Lenin” type. Wishful thinking, bad communications and rumours being presented as fact had much to do with this.

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 20:42 utc | 144

One suspects a real inflection point has been reached, and perhaps Kramatorsk missile strike is the first signal.
@ Paul Damascene | Jun 28 2023 20:25 utc | 131
Because it’s wartime, I suppose, US Americans no longer have any right to know when their fellow Americans are injured or killed in action. Every time there are rumors of USA KIA, this bar is practically the only place I hear anything about it.
Your post boils down to the question obsessing me. After weeks of utter futility in the wake of an either bogus or shockingly hapless counteroffensive, with an apparent color-revolution misfire across the bow, with the next incompetent provocation coming in a day or two… it seems about time for an “inflection point”.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 28 2023 20:42 utc | 145

Off topic
Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 20:38 utc | 141
Hey ! I remember something about this. Wasn’t he wanting to dna dog poo to trace the owners and fine them?

Posted by: Boy | Jun 28 2023 20:43 utc | 146

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 28 2023 20:25 utc | 131
Pretty good assessment.
I don’t think there was much involvement by Western intel myself, but if there was any, it would probably go pretty much as you outline.
In other words, GRU and SVR know the guy they hired to be the front man. They wouldn’t trust him as far as they could throw him. As long as he did his job – which, by the way, IIRC, consisted of denying he had anything to do with Wagner until the SMO started, which was never believed by western media or intel – they let him do what he wanted on the side.
If there was any approach by the West, Russian intel would know – unless they were distracted and overworked by the war itself – and would immediately clamp down on Prigozhin and try to use him as a double. Which is why I doubt CIA or Mi6 would bother – as you say, they have to know this would be spotted by Russian counterintel.
I tend to doubt there were any 5th columnists involved, but anything is possible. I think this was 98% Prigozhin’s idea borne strictly from his losing income. There may be people who wanted to take advantage of this – there always are – but I doubt they had much influence over Prigozhin.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:47 utc | 147

@135 – the “Telegram channels”
Whatever of facts those ‘Telegram channels’ by either side (UKR/RF) may have “reported” minute-by-minute, the result of this on-going war won’t be affected by only ONE “person”, neither by Shoigu’s nor by Surovikin’s arrest !

Posted by: spare_truth | Jun 28 2023 20:48 utc | 148

@ Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:25 utc | 132
at this point – i share your viewpoint here… thanks..

Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 20:48 utc | 149

147 – That’s the one. I have a pretty good memory, but clearly I have competition.

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 20:49 utc | 150

Posted by: Boy | Jun 28 2023 20:39 utc | 144
I never analyzed that video, just glanced at it. Since it has zero OSINT information attached to it and no verification by anyone who would know, Who cares? Your analysis is appreciated and no doubt correct.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:50 utc | 151

Regarding the Pantsirs, Ukraine claimed to have captured 3 before the SMO. Only two were visually confirmed, and one was destroyed.

Posted by: Arfur Mo | Jun 28 2023 20:51 utc | 152

It is a matter of honour.
@ Patroklos | Jun 28 2023 20:37 utc | 140
Either because I’m too old, or because I’ve always been Californian, I have absolutely no sense of national or regional honor. Insult California and Californians all you like, you could even confuse us with Bostonians. Don’t make no nevermind to me.
There’s a serious point here: I regard myself as a proud citizen of Planet Earth. Those countries and institutions which threaten my homeland — viz. my planet — most severely are my gravest enemies. Most of them speak with TV accents.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 28 2023 20:53 utc | 153

I think b and many of you are wrong about this Prigozhin episode.
It is a result of the stresses in Russian society due to the absence of a clearly defined goal and the loss of initiative in the SMO. Not to mention the societal damage of leading a war of this magnitude. Going on the defensive and waiting for the West to exhaust itself is not a grand motivational strategy.
Wagner made it possible last summer to break through in Popasna which led to the gain of Severodonetsk and Lyschiansk. They also captured Bakhmut with high losses. The only wins after the initial SMO stage. By a bunch of criminals yes but still.
You cant keep this going for a long time, unlike the Ukrainians that have unlimited support which can. Time is not on Russia’s side. They need wins to keep this going internally. Without the criminal gangs of Wagner.
Sunday came very close to a breakdown of the state, they were surprised by it. Otherwise Putin would not have had to stress many times the unity and strength, you do that when there is very little of it. Being forced to negotiate with a criminal-traitor is not a show of strength.
I dont know what they think they can do on defense. For every piece destroyed there are two new NATO pieces lined up behind them. Who will get exhausted first? Maybe they are banking on the economics of the war weighing on the West but yeah, that is a stretch. It smells to me just like the way USSR and Yugoslavia went, the pressure of the West won.
I truly wish there is opposition to the imperial forces but this is not cutting it. Russia has the resources but they keep fucking it up. They need to behave like an empire if they want to beat the current one I guess. Not ideal but I am losing my faith here.

Posted by: alek_a | Jun 28 2023 20:53 utc | 154

https://t.me/CyberspecNews/34585

RLS+Kvadrat reports on the deployment of NATO mercenaries:
“The entire Seversk district—from Zvanovka, to Zakotny, and to Serebryanka—is simply swarming with mercenaries. In a number of settlements they’ve occupied all the houses. Female and male terrorists, Americans and Poles. Blacks and Arabs. Very few Ukrainians.
They are unlikely to go in the direction of Sporny—it is impossible to pass there. In the direction of Kremennaya, through the forests, is also problematic. They will not go around. The LPR Belogorovka settlement, that’s where they will stay.
The most likely direction of the planned attack is Soledar/Artyomovsk.
Total number of the mercenaries is at least 15 thousand + armor and “jihadmobiles.””

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 28 2023 20:55 utc | 155

@ alek_a | Jun 28 2023 20:53 utc | 155
that’s a fair statement… thanks.. i am not sure how i would rebuttal it.

Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 20:56 utc | 156

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 28 2023 20:42 utc | 146
Except, it is NOT wartime in the US – unless you can show me the bill number where the US Congress declared war on Russia?
If US boots are in Ukraine, this is an unauthorized action by the POTUS under the War Powers Act, with a Congress bought and paid for by the MIC having no desire to do its’ job.
In a better world, we’d have an active press that takes seriously its duty as a watchdog over government affairs to help uncover the truth. But that institution has been corrupted, too.
So it is left to folks like the barflies to try and see through the fog.
It really says a lot about the decline of America that there isn’t even one journalist poking around asking the Pentagon annoying questions.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 28 2023 20:58 utc | 157

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 28 2023 20:53 utc | 154
I agree with your attitude. I’ve never considered myself either an “American” – except for obvious reasons of birth and cultural experience – and still less so a “patriot”.
As the song “Revolution”, by The Score, says: “Got love for my home, but if we cry, is there anyone listening?”
I appreciate what the US has to offer because I grew up here, I got access to what I want (when I can afford it), I speak the language and understand the culture. Why would I want to live anywhere else, absent a direct and explainable benefit that overrides my entire experience?
But all this “who has this accent” is all off-topic bullshit.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:58 utc | 158

Not an expert, but the fellow sounds South African to me.
Posted by: Spen Fuelrod | Jun 28 2023 16:57 utc | 7
As a South African, I assure you, the voice you hear is South African; likely schooled in Johannesburg or Pretoria vicinity. But, in my view, he does not sound typical mil-type. Perhaps an NGO staffer or technical support, comms or logistics.

Posted by: Etienne Marais | Jun 28 2023 21:01 utc | 159

alek_a | Jun 28 2023 20:53 utc | 155
Bullshit. Welcome to my block.
Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 20:56 utc | 157
“i am not sure how i would rebuttal it.”
Seriously? Is this “fake james”? The real james doesn’t strike as me as that dumb. If this is “real james”, reread the post and think about it some more. Most of what he says is complete bullshit. The idea that NATO has unlimited capability to supply Ukraine has been debunked a hundred times here and elsewhere.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 21:03 utc | 160

And another moron stops by to shit on the forum and then fly away …
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 18:18 utc | 55
—————————————————-
Thank you Arch, that was delightful and so true.

Posted by: Ed | Jun 28 2023 21:08 utc | 161

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 21:03 utc | 161
Who can go on the longest is not only defined by the military resources aka the numbers. It is not a board game.

Posted by: alek_a | Jun 28 2023 21:10 utc | 162

off-topic bullshit
@ Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:58 utc | 159
It’s a consequential and interesting matter, of which I’ve heard nothing anywhere else but here, if there are South African boots on the ground in Ukraine.
Sorry to wander off into human issues, such as nationalism. I keep doing that.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 28 2023 21:13 utc | 163

Unexplained events that came and went. Three or Four Russian aircraft were shot down a few weeks ago. Some were quick to say it was the Patriot system or air to air strikes. Prigozhin in a riddle statement implied it was friendly fire given the airspace that had to be covered. Was that a test run?

Posted by: Riddle_Me_This | Jun 28 2023 21:14 utc | 164

America Has Just Destroyed a Great Empire
Yves Smith, Gramsci, and Michael Hudson ….
…. bit of a break … not in a South African accent …
the Gramsci view:
The crisis consists precisely in the fact that the old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms appear.
By Michael Hudson, a research professor of Economics at University of Missouri, Kansas City, and a research associate at the Levy Economics Institute of Bard College. His latest book is The Destiny of Civilization.
Herodotus (History, Book 1.53) tells the story of Croesus, king of Lydia c. 585-546 BC in what is now Western Turkey and the Ionian shore of the Mediterranean. Croesus conquered Ephesus, Miletus and neighboring Greek-speaking realms, obtaining tribute and booty that made him one of the richest rulers of his time. But these victories and wealth led to arrogance and hubris. Croesus turned his eyes eastward, ambitious to conquer Persia, ruled by Cyrus the Great.
Having endowed the region’s cosmopolitan Temple of Delphi with substantial silver and gold, Croesus asked its Oracle whether he would be successful in the conquest that he had planned. The Pythia priestess answered: “If you go to war against Persia, you will destroy a great empire.”
Croesus therefore set out to attack Persia c. 547 BC. Marching eastward, he attacked Persia’s vassal-state Phrygia. Cyrus mounted a Special Military Operation to drive Croesus back, defeating Croesus’s army, capturing him and taking the opportunity to seize Lydia’s gold to introduce his own Persian gold coinage. So Croesus did indeed destroy a great empire, but it was his own.
Fast-forward to today’s drive by the Biden administration to extend American military power against Russia and, behind it, China. The president asked for advice from today’s analogue to antiquity’s Delphi oracle: the CIA and its allied think tanks. Instead of warning against hubris, they encouraged the neocon dream that attacking Russia and China would consolidate its control of the world economy, achieving the End of History.
Having organized a coup d’état in Ukraine in 2014, the United States sent its NATO proxy army eastward, giving weapons to Ukraine to fight an ethnic war against its Russian-speaking population and turn Russia’s Crimean naval base into a NATO fortress. This Croesus-level ambition aimed at drawing Russia into combat and depleting its ability to defend itself, wrecking its economy in the process and destroying its ability to provide military support to China and other countries targeted as rivals by U.S. hegemony.
[do read on …]
https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2023/06/america-has-just-destroyed-a-great-empire.html

Posted by: Don Firineach | Jun 28 2023 21:22 utc | 165

It is a result of the stresses in Russian society due to the absence of a clearly defined goal and the loss of initiative in the SMO. Not to mention the societal damage of leading a war of this magnitude. Going on the defensive and waiting for the West to exhaust itself is not a grand motivational strategy.

Posted by: alek_a | Jun 28 2023 20:53 utc | 155
The front line runs through the 4 oblasts that are now a part of Russia. A penultimate goal which appears clearly defined is to evict the Ukrainian army from these oblasts and secure them for Russia. Then there are the more nebulous goals of de-Nazification and demilitarization. Seems to me that evicting a government that is hostile to the ethnic Russian occupants of a region is a clear goal that Russian troops can relate to.

Posted by: Mike R | Jun 28 2023 21:28 utc | 166

Richard Stephen Hack @148
Reasonable comments. I wouldn’t say my scenario wins any prices for likelihood.
Sometimes the simpler theories are the better ones.
One counter to your surmise that Western intel would likely know the Russian counter-intel is aware, and that there’d be no point:
events as they unfolded–even the tragicomic fiasco–might be considered worth it by some.
But I do think it’s time to go out and get some air. Hope to hear less of Prigo in the future.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 28 2023 21:30 utc | 167

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 21:03 utc | 161
Fake James.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 21:30 utc | 168

In Oct. 1993 Yeltsin sent tanks to parliament. Front page, NY Times, Oct. 4, 1993, “SHOWDOWN IN MOSCOW: The Overview; YELTSIN SENDS TROOPS TO OUST ARMED FOES FROM PARLIAMENT; FIERCE BATTLE RAGES IN CAPITAL”
……………
US Pres. Bill Clinton supported Yeltsin:
From UK Guardian: Oct. 5, 1993, “Yeltsin crushes revolt,” UK Guardian, Jonathan Steele, David Hearst, Moscow
““It is clear that the opposition forces started the conflict, and President Yeltsin had no other alternative but to try to restore order,’ the US president, Bill Clinton, said.
“The US supported Yeltsin because he is Russia’s democratically-elected leader,” he said. “I have no reason to doubt the personal commitment that President Yeltsin made to let the Russian people decide their own future in elections.’…
*Parliament taken in tank battle ·Opposition parties and newspapers banned
“President Boris Yeltsin moved swiftly last night to stamp his absolute power on Russia by suspending a range of political movements and closing opposition newspapers after the surrender of his main parliamentary opponents in the wake of the assault on the Russian White House.
Under a decree following the state of emergency that Mr Yeltsin imposed on Sunday, the National Salvation Front, the Russian Communist Party, the United Front of Workers and the Union of Officers were banned, while Pravda, the former organ of the Soviet Communist Party, and a number of other papers were told to cease publication….
The ministry of justice justified the clampdown on the grounds that the groups banned had supported the armed uprising launched by hardliners on Sunday afternoon.
With elections promised in December [1993] for a new bicameral parliament, the bans will severely limit the options for Russians who oppose Mr Yeltsin….
It was impossible to determine the final death toll, although the authorities quoted medical officials as saying that 62 people were confirmed killed, and 400 wounded, in Sunday’s assault on the television centre.
Western leaders, warned in advance of the assault, promptly declared support, but urged a speedy return to constitutionality.”

Posted by: susan mullen | Jun 28 2023 21:32 utc | 169

@ Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 21:03 utc | 161
@ GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 21:30 utc | 169
nope… real james… after this fiasco with prigozhin, my take is that russia doesn’t have unlimited time and ability to continue this… but i will be the first to admit i have it wrong.. i do believe russia is moving forward and i don’t mind the slow pace.. however this prigozhin episode has got me wondering how long this goes and what other possible pitfalls await..

Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 21:34 utc | 170

Thanks again to S for his excellent contributions.
On “Illegal Intelligence,” when I came across that Putin speech event, I was befuddled by the term, too, so I used two different translation platforms, the Microsoft one built into Edge, and Yandex–one American, one Russian in software design. Both came up with the same translation–Illegal Intelligence. Here’s the title from the Kremlin website found at the above link:
Владимир Путин поздравил сотрудников и ветеранов СВР со столетием нелегальной разведки
My Russian is very rusty, but the next to last word seems to be not legal or illegal, which is what Yandex provides. But enough on that point-of-issue.
Paul Damascene | Jun 28 2023 20:25 utc | 131–
Thanks very much for your well considered comment. IMO, the gig issue comes from the info contained in the docs supposedly leaked by the airman earlier this year wherein at least one said Prigozhin had supplied Russian troop location info on several occasions, which was clearly intel ISR had already discovered. The question begged, Was that genuine intel or something planted to discredit Prigozhin? And if planted, how did that affect Prigozhin’s psyche?
Let’s assume he never gave the West anything. Yet it’s said he actually did, and this is at a time when it’s becoming clear to him that MoD wants to “nationalize” Wagner, since after all, Russia’s de facto owns it already as Putin disclosed. And then word gets to him that all his other supply business is going to be curtailed too. And who has the authority to make those decisions? The very men he badmouths.
So, he hatches a plot to exact some measure of revenge that’s perhaps egged on by his ex-GRU (?) second in command, but he’s only able to convince, or only tries to convince, a small portion of his overall forces to join in his “Freedom March.” Now my first impression of this affair was of an unstable man acting rashly–like a child who has its favorite toy taken away–and lashes out in an irrational manner. This seems like the Occam’s Razor explanation. Recall Wagner is an organization the Outlaw US Empire would love to see discredited and disbanded because it’s been so effective everywhere it’s been deployed. Also recall there’re parts of the negotiation between Lukashenko and Prigozhin that remain secret. Perhaps Prigozhin’s profanity infused diatribe was about being framed by the false info in the “leaked” docs which was the basis for the animosity between Russian and Wagner forces? IMO, an ex-con knows when he’s being framed, being set up for a fall.
So, it was a Western plot, but not what we thought it was with Prigozhin as a double agent. And
given the events that happened during the motor march and the political actions by Team Putin and Team Lukashenko, combined with the later words spoken by Putin, that’s my current summation.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 28 2023 21:37 utc | 171

I watched the BBC report on the hotel/restaurant attack. They made no attempt to hide the fact that people involved in the rescue effort were all young men of military age, in civilian clothes and with haircuts that literally screamed American and/or British. I know what Ukrainians look like, and under the current threat of forced recruitment, I seriously doubt that any of them would be lounging around in a restaurant where they could be whisked off to certain death at a moment’s notice.

Posted by: ebear | Jun 28 2023 21:43 utc | 172

a Western plot.. with Prigozhin as a double agent
@ karlof1 | Jun 28 2023 21:37 utc | 172
What you say sounds close to me.
Larry Johnson’s brainstorming post on this subject is along the same lines, with some reasonable, albeit Byzantine, complications:
https://sonar21.com/was-prigozhins-mutiny-a-western-intelligence-op-derailed-by-russias-spies/

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 28 2023 21:56 utc | 173

Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 21:34 utc | 171
My mistake. I thought you’d know the difference between rebuttal (noun) and rebut (verb). 😉

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 21:56 utc | 174

The so-called South African voice on the Kramtorsk video is FAKE. Its superimposed on the video. Go figure……where is the next BRICS summit……well??
Now you’ve got it!

Posted by: HERMIUS | Jun 28 2023 21:58 utc | 175

Don Firineach | Jun 28 2023 21:22 utc | 166–
Thanks for alerting us to that fine essay by Dr. Hudson. And be sure to read the comments to find the note by Hudson that seals the end of his essay.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 28 2023 22:00 utc | 176

@ GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 21:56 utc | 175
that was a typo on my part… i thought of it after, but never corrected myself.. i have a bad habit of posting as opposed to previewing first.. cheers..

Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 22:04 utc | 177

well
I guess its up :3

Posted by: Macpott | Jun 28 2023 22:08 utc | 178

Gaius Baltar has some fun delving the details of Prigo’s folly like a murder mystery:

Prigo was bought and recruited by Western and Ukrainian intelligence during or before the battle of Bakhmut. During the battle he and/or his handlers decided to use Wagner PMC as a tool against the Russian State – to weaken it and to create command paralysis at the right moment.

https://sonar21.com/a-working-theory-on-prigos-coup/

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 28 2023 22:12 utc | 179

Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 17:09 utc | 15
‘Right on the cue’ also the action by Israel to create new facts by building new settlements, and to do some more ‘grass mowing’ – as they did at the time of MH-17 shoot down.

Posted by: fanto | Jun 28 2023 22:12 utc | 180

As to whether the Wagner “peaceful protest” convoy had highly effective mobile anti-aircraft defences, and whether despite that a couple of attacks were made by the RF aerospace forces against it, all we will know about that for a long is just unverifiable hearsay or propaganda.
We might have the same degree of scepticism about whether there was a “peaceful protest” convoy from Rostov to Moscow, but since all relevant sides agree there was *something* on the road, I guess we can cautiously regard it as plausible.
George Orwell “Looking Back on the Spanish War”, June 1943
“Early in life I have noticed that no event is ever correctly reported in a newspaper, but in Spain, for the first time, I saw newspaper reports which did not bear any relation to the facts, not even the relationship which is implied in an ordinary lie.
I saw great battles reported where there had been no fighting, and complete silence where hundreds of men had been killed.
I saw troops who had fought bravely denounced as cowards and traitors, and others who had never seen a shot fired hailed as the heroes of imaginary victories; and I saw newspapers in London retailing these lies and eager intellectuals building emotional superstructures over events that had never happened.”

Posted by: Blissex | Jun 28 2023 22:12 utc | 181

«There was zero action taken by the border guards, the internal security force Rosguardia, by the police and the Russian military. That is unexplainable unless there was an order from very high up to step back instead of seeking a fight. President Putin’s primary aim was to avoid unnecessary casualties which he largely achieved.»
That is a possbility, but note also that there was zero action taken by civilians, as neither in Rostov nor at any point on the road to Moscow there were, allegedly, any protest crowds or human cordons blocking Wagner. I guess in part because of respect for this GRU unit that contributed so much to the SMO, in part I suspect because most cvilians, while perhaps not quite supporting Wagner, did not quite support Shoigu either. Or perhaps they realized it was an action inspired by some famous events of russian history and understood the message, as “petra” keeps saying.

Posted by: Blissex | Jun 28 2023 22:18 utc | 182

Aleph_Null | Jun 28 2023 21:56 utc | 174–
Thanks for your reply. My problem with Johnson is he accepts the supposed leak as 100% genuine, not a plant of some sort, although it’s possible it could be both genuine with planted info within.
My beef is that without that accusatory bit of him being treasonous, Prigozhin’s only other worry was losing “ownership” of Wagner and having his supply contracts cancelled. And with the latter, there’s the likely investigation for likely fraud that would also swat down his popularity.
A segment of Russia’s population of unknown size was clearly very unhappy with Putin’s disclosure of the very public nature of what was understood to be a private military contractor–Nationalizing the costs while privatizing the profits was the well-deserved complaint: Neoliberalism to the core.
There’s also a legal issue involved, otherwise the Duma wouldn’t be engaged in discussing legislation about the employment of PMCs like Wagner within Russia.
So the Wagner Saga will not go away anytime soon. And we likely won’t become old enough to learn the whole story when the archives on this are released in 100 years.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 28 2023 22:23 utc | 183

ZELENSKY:
Zelensky has created a narrative of not giving up one square meter of Ukraine to Russia. This has been his continual narrative throughout Russia’s special military operation (SMO).
The West may have been hopeful for Ukraine to defeat Russia on the battle field. However, it has become obvious that Ukraine’s recent offensive is meeting strong Russian resistance and is quickly being destroyed.
The Western militaries know that Ukraine is not going anywhere against the Russians without air support.
Where will the narrative go from here? I think that the West will continue to escalate the Ukrainian conflict with F-16s and long range missiles. However, the West knows that its Ukraine proxy is going to fail at the zero lines.
At the same time the USA needs to take Russia down, not just in Ukraine but as a nation under its current leadership. Otherwise the US hegemony will continue to be threatened.
Eventually, the West will no longer be looking to Ukraine for their Russian solution. There will no longer be a need for Zelensky nor his Ukraine. Perhaps that day is rapidly approaching. Perhaps Zelensky will soon be taken out by the West?
For now, Zelensky is forcing another load of AFU into the Russian meat grinder. This feeds into Russia’s plans to eliminate the AFU. As long as Zelensky forces his troops into the effficient Russian meat grinder, why would the Russians want to take him out?
Whenever there is no longer a Zelensky, most likely the AFU will retreat to the West bank of the Dnieper River. Until then, it will be interesting to see where the narrative goes and what happens to Zelensky and the AFU and Russia.

Posted by: young | Jun 28 2023 22:26 utc | 184

Anyone still obsessing over Prigo and his merry bunch of crims masquerading as Wagner hasn’t been paying attention.
A bunch of crims join Wagner, Wagner starts taking huge losses. Has anyone estimated how long those inmates had for training? Take a look at one photo where Prigg is flanked by an old man and a very young boy. They did not look like seasoned and bloodied fighters.
Pantsir or manpad, what’s the difference? There was news that one of Prigo’s group took over an airbase and speculation that some of the helios were on the ground. That Il22 could have been a routine flight, a real AA crew would not have mistaken it for a threat, and video showed it was hit at low height and engine missing, so likely heat seeking. Again, so what?
There’s a guest writer on Larry Johnson’s blog that makes a compelling argument.
I’d surmise the group Prigo had were the newbies who bought into his storyline. Even 900 men in convoys would look like a huge force.
Putin has been proven to keep his word, so expect criminal charges soon at certain leaders of Wagners, Ukraine will cease to exist in the current form and coalition of the willing or NATO destroyed if trying to intervene.

Posted by: Suresh | Jun 28 2023 22:32 utc | 185

“I watched the BBC report on the hotel/restaurant attack.”
ebear | Jun 28 2023 21:43 utc | 173
Me too. I didn’t see any mention of foreign mercenaries. Maybe the BBC will do an in depth report at some point. Does anybody know what these guys do when they aren’t eating pizza? Are they crawling around in minefields getting blown up or do only Ukies do that?

Posted by: dh | Jun 28 2023 22:33 utc | 186

Posted by: Blissex | Jun 28 2023 22:18 utc | 183
Re: border guards – See the post by S above. #114
Re: civilians – There was at least one highway/arterial road allegedly dug up with a backhoe in order to prevent Wagner from being able to drive to Moscow. There were large crowds on Rostov on Don, mostly people saying their thanks to Wagner but also fully supporting the Russian MOD and leadership
_________________________________________________________________
I see that others have also pointed to some apparent holes in the narrative surrounding the lost aircraft and crew. I still have yet to find anything in official channels such as Interfax and TASS except transcripts or excerpts of Putin’s two speeches and Priggo’s apology for the Il-22. The only video evidence for the latter being a relatively narrow angle shot of a plane resembling an Il-22 with its wing on fire falling to the ground. There are also photographs of a damaged airframe/fuselage on the ground conveniently showing the plane’s exact designator in print. I have come around to accepting that this plane was probably in fact accidentally (or stupidly not following orders) shot down by someone affiliated with Wagner. But as others have pointed out, the only evidence for helicopters is hearsay on a few Russian Telegram channels, Ukro-friendly Twitter accounts, and western partisan military trackers like Oryx (which used to be pretty neutral). The picture of one helicopter shows it sitting still on its skids in the same position it would normally take off or land in. The only video of a destroyed helicopter is of a fire crew, in uniform, spraying flame retardant foam.
The above got me to some further thinking on this. If in fact so many aircraft had been shot down, not only wouldn’t we have clear video evidence for each (or most) but also multiple angles from multiple different camera phones? It still doesn’t add up.
Again, Putin could have merely been referring to the crew and pilots on the Il-22.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 28 2023 22:34 utc | 187

you can be sure that the target audience for these events have been and are reading the obvious finger-wagging message between the lines and being forced to delay if not abandon their rebellion. Of course, operational aspects like redeployment of forces this way and that, regulars south towards the Don and PMC west into Belarus, are happy by-products to the core domestic purpose of this enactment.
Posted by: petra | Jun 28 2023 17:45 utc | 36
Thanks, posts from you and “S” taken together, make the most sense to me

Posted by: K | Jun 28 2023 22:36 utc | 188

Regarding “civilian” actions in response to Wagner’s alleged “mutiny” or “coup” attempt:
Scroll down about 1/3 of the way on this page for pictures and video of highways being dug up, Wagner billboards being taken down, etc.
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/prigozhins-siege-ends-postmortem

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 28 2023 22:37 utc | 189

Posted by: Blissex | Jun 28 2023 22:18 utc | 183
If you see a military convoy, do you get in its way? Or do you think it has some legitimate business and move to the sides?
Could the civilians tell the Wagner forces apart from the military forces that might be on their way to intercept the Wagner forces?
And some civil authorities seem to have taken action – parking trucks in the way of the convoy, and digging up the road along which the convoy was expected to travel.
As for the border guards taking no action – they may have been ordered to stand down. The question then is who gave those orders. Someone high up in the government? Or someone farther down supporting Prigozhin by telling them that the Wagner guys were on legitimate business?
And of course, the border is now an inner border between different parts of the Russian federation. They might simply not have expected this problem to show up unannounced.

Posted by: Martina | Jun 28 2023 22:38 utc | 190

FLED DISGRACEFULLY WITHOUT FLAG
Everybody saw it, nobody in zelensky administration had a ukraine flag? occupiers forgot ukraines flag. Worse, downloading an image from internet & using a TV set to display image,( unable to purchase flag anywhere).
NAZI ‘UNIT’ FLAG PAINTED ON ALL USA TANKS
Captured armor reveals secret, “ALL” American tanks, armor trucks manufactured in USA have Nazi ‘Unit’ insignia newly painted as identifiers ukraine, Center displayed logo on tanks (light-gay-blue color). Rainbow flag has EXACT color comparing, next to pink shade. NO ukraine flag/colors displayed on any battlefield armor only this ww2 “symbol”. Color hex #74d7ee identifies ukraines exact colors represent transgender colors on tanks?

Posted by: Merlin | Jun 28 2023 22:43 utc | 191

The whole Wagner escapade was a performance. Russia wanted to deploy Wagner in Belarus with full deniability and that’s what is happening.

Posted by: Figleaf23 | Jun 28 2023 22:49 utc | 192

Prigozhin knew he was going to play the villain when he signed up for the role. How could an oligarch boss of mercenaries end up any other way? It is tragic, but he knew what the role led to. I respect him for, among other things, taking the job anyway. It must be tough to take a job knowing it will lead to you being vilified by nearly everyone, and that redemption of his honor probably won’t come in his lifetime.
I’m glad Lukashenko understands the situation, and clearly understands it better than Putin himself. My respect for Lukashenko has definitely gone up a couple notches.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 28 2023 22:54 utc | 193

headline at rt.. totally makes sense biden said this..
“Putin is losing Iraq War – Biden
The US president seemed to get his conflicts mixed up”
i view that as a contrary indicator.. russia is winning the war in ukraine.. biden isn’t ever allowed to say that though..

Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 22:56 utc | 194

Bullshit. From the first sentence. As you say, “idle speculation” – to which this site is unfortunately frequently subject to.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 20:05 utc | 115

Posted by: The Dolphin | Jun 28 2023 23:06 utc | 195

“The US president seemed to get his conflicts mixed up.”
james | Jun 28 2023 22:56 utc | 194
Don’t be too hard on Joe. He gets muddled. He’s probably thinking of Iran or Syria or North Korea or Gettysburg or the Alamo. Who knows.

Posted by: dh | Jun 28 2023 23:06 utc | 196

This talk of Wagner/Prigozhin having a Pantsir and using it against their own side, and presumably as part of sending a message to Putin, reminds me of Dune Messiah, Korba and the stoneburner. Spoiler alert: Didn’t end well for that close ally of Paul, he who had similar ideas. 😉
https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Korba

Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 28 2023 23:07 utc | 197

@DilNir | Jun 28 2023 16:53
Due to your ambiguous way of expressing yourself I am not sure I get your point and some readers may even get the mistaken impression that you dot unreservedly respect and admire our POTUS. I only wish you were more direct.

Posted by: ariadna | Jun 28 2023 23:08 utc | 198

Tony Blair used the name “Charles Lynton” for his homo bathroom arrest.

Posted by: Adam Frank | Jun 28 2023 23:08 utc | 199

from now on, i am only going to speculate industriously.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 28 2023 23:11 utc | 200