Ukraine SitRep: Prigozhin Affair - Kramatorsk Missile Attack - Updated
Updated below - June 29, 13:55 UTC
There is still some fallout from the Prigozhin affair.
The U.S. propaganda campaign that falsely claims that Russia has been weakened by Wagner's armed mutiny continues. While citing only 'western' intelligence affiliated sources the Washington Post headlines Putin’s standing as global strongman in jeopardy after revolt. Where please is evidence for that?
The New York Times assists in a useless attempt to sow fear and doubt on the Russian side:
A senior Russian general had advance knowledge of Yevgeny Prigozhin’s plans to rebel against Russia’s military leadership, according to U.S. officials briefed on American intelligence on the matter, which has prompted questions about what support the mercenary leader had inside the top ranks.The officials said they are trying to learn if Gen. Sergei Surovikin, the former top Russian commander in Ukraine, helped plan Mr. Prigozhin’s actions last weekend, which posed the most dramatic threat to President Vladimir V. Putin in his 23 years in power.
Gen. Sergei Surovikin of course knew that something was up with Wagner. The whole Russian leadership knew of it. Orders were obviously given for everyone to stand down and to let Prigozhin do what he had planned to do.
There was zero action taken by the border guards, the internal security force Rosguardia, by the police and the Russian military. That is unexplainable unless there was an order from very high up to step back instead of seeking a fight. President Putin's primary aim was to avoid unnecessary casualties which he largely achieved.
One miscalculation happened. Wagner had a mobile Pantsir-1 air defense system that tried to cover its convoys on their trip towards Moscow. Several Russian helicopters and a plane where shot down when they came too near to them. It seems that the Pantsirs were a surprise.
Wagner was not supposed to have them:
🌻 Fertilizer Finder 🌻 - @ManiacMagic1 - 19:38 UTC · Jun 27, 2023A source in the Russian Defense Ministry reports that neither the Ministry of Defense nor the Tula machine-building plant "Scheglovsky Val" sold Yevgeny Prigozhin and his firms the Pantsir S-1 anti-aircraft missile system worth more than $14,000,000. How the "Pantsir" ended up in the possession of the terrorist organization "PMC Wagner" and whether the governor of the Tula region Alexei Dyumin is involved in this, are now being investigated by the investigators of the GVSU of the ICR and the SU of the FSB.
Embedded video
The source above is pro-Ukrainian so this might be another false claim intelligence play but I think there is some truth to it. Russian air defenses in Ukraine work in an integrated environment where all systems from wide area surveillance and long range defense down to the short range Pantsirs are integrated. Under such a system it never made sense to give Wagner their own independent air defenses. It would instead be provided air cover by the Russian army.
As soon as the Pantsir was observed within the Wagner convoy the Russian military should have shut down the air space near Wagner's route. That it did not immediately do so was a mistake that cost it several capable pilots.
There is still the open question of how many Wagner people were actually involved in the affair. History Legend has counted the transport equipment in the various convoys and estimates 1,500 to 2,000. The number seems reasonable. It means that large majority of the current 20,000 Wagner fighters did not take part in the affair.
In his latest speech Putin said that Prigozhin catering business with the army as well as his other business will now come under scrutiny. There was without doubt some over-billing and fraud involved. Prigozhin should have know that under Putin's regime oligarchs are not allowed to intervene in politics. Putin successfully fought against those oligarchs who tried as soon as he came to power. Prigozhin's attempt to get Defense Minister Shoigu and General Gerasimov fired was such an intervention. It will likely cost him his business.
Yesterday there was a Russian* missile strike of unknown provenance* on a hotel complex in Kramatorsk:
The missile tore into the crowded Ria Lounge restaurant at dinnertime on Tuesday, setting off a large blaze that burned for more than two hours. By Wednesday afternoon, the Ukrainian authorities said that 10 people had been confirmed dead — including 14-year-old twin sisters — and 61 others were wounded."
Video from the scene taken immediately after the event show English speaking men with the one helping a wounded exposing a quad angle tattoo with the number 3 written in it on his right arm (see at 7 sec in).
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This is said to be a sign of the 3rd Ranger Battalion of the U.S. army which is a part of the U.S. special operation forces.
Another video taken during rubble clearing at night has a (British?) English speaker saying "Look what these bastards are doing to this country. There's soldiers under this rubble all over."
This seems to confirm that the hotel complex and its restaurant were not exclusively used for civilian purposes but housed and catered to foreign soldiers.
*Update - June 29, 13:55 UTC:
The June 29, 2023 report by the Russian Defense Ministry on the daily operation in Ukraine says (machine translation):
According to updated information, as a result of a high-precision strike on June 27 in the city of Kramatorsk, Donetsk People's Republic, at the point of temporary deployment of the 56th separate motorized infantry brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, two generals participating in the headquarters meeting, up to 50 officers of the armed forces of Ukraine, as well as up to 20 foreign mercenaries and military personnel were destroyed.
Posted by b on June 28, 2023 at 16:28 UTC | Permalink
next page »Well, that's the collective West's delusions going amok again. With respect to the Hotel in Kramatorsk that was bombed, it is clear from the videos there were a lot of English and American soldiers there so, NATO does have boots on the ground as everyone suspected. I think I might have got two separate news items confused but I think I read somewhere that the Ukranians launched a Storm Shadow missile at Kramatorsk that took out a Hotel. I also read in the same piece that the Storm Shadow missile had veered widely off course. The question asked by the article (I'll try to find where I read it) was whether the Russian were now able to use EW to interfere with the Storm Shadows.
I've probably got 2 different articles confused. If anyone can shed any light?
Posted by: Jo Dominich | Jun 28 2023 16:42 utc | 2
What is happening in Kherson and why has Ukraine got a bridgehead south of the Dnieper?
Antonovskoe direction - situation at 10.00 06.28.23Unfortunately, the enemy managed to fortify himself on the northern part of Antonovsky Island (near the bridge in the area of the dachas), and our attempts to drive him out of there have so far been unsuccessful.
Despite the fact that our aviation, UAVs, and artillery began to work here.
But I can note that the organization of our attacks here is noticeably improving (in relation to the events of two days ago), and therefore there is hope that the enemy will be thrown back into the Dnieper.
https://twitter.com/GeromanAT/status/1673993991451181057
Posted by: Julian | Jun 28 2023 16:50 utc | 3
Thanks, b, for the information. Are we sure that those pilots were fighting against the insurrection and not in support of the insurrection? Why come too close to the convoy, that seems ridiculous to me. After listening to Bhadrakumar’s interview (thank you to james for the reminder), it seems impossible that Wagner had Pantsir systems and the Russian authorities didn’t know about it.
Posted by: Bruised Northerner | Jun 28 2023 16:51 utc | 4
It may have been (well no, probably was) an AD missile. Initially Ukraine reported that it was a s-300, but they later changed it to an Iskander which seems somewhat laughable if you ask why Russia would waste one against a low priority target with civilians to boot. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/officials-arrest-local-man-accused-of-helping-russia-direct-deadly-missile-strike-in-east-ukraine
Posted by: teddy salad | Jun 28 2023 16:53 utc | 5
Insane old pervert Joe claims that VVP is a pariah worldwide. I wonder -- does this demented turd in vaguely human form believe that HE is the world? We know he loves rubbing against children. Teaching them how to moonwalk, presumably.
Priggy is a gift that just keeps on giving. What gives the game away is when the ever-reliable purveyor of pap that is CNN put out snippets attributed to US intelligence, More credible, perhaps, than Schmo Joe's intelligence. Wonder when these clods can ever do without the taste of his wrinkled knob. Though Anderson Pooper likely has a lifetime subscription, being a congenital sucker. Albeit literally rather than figuratively.
Posted by: DilNir | Jun 28 2023 16:53 utc | 6
"...saying "Look what these bastards are doing to this country. There's soldiers under this rubble all over."
Not an expert, but the fellow sounds South African to me.
Posted by: Spen Fuelrod | Jun 28 2023 16:57 utc | 7
I think the AD missile (or whatever the missile took down) coming back to earth and landing on a hotel filled with US special forces was a freak occurrence, much like the similar S-300 that fell earlier in Poland.
Posted by: teddy salad | Jun 28 2023 17:00 utc | 8
Posted by: Jo Dominich | Jun 28 2023 16:42 utc | 2
I saw the same article or articles, either on Sputnik, Moskovsky Komsomolets or RIA Novosti; possibly all three, blaming the Ukronazis for firing a Storm Shadow at Kramatorsk, then another that went haywire. Can't find them now, maybe Russia retracted them.
Posted by: pasha | Jun 28 2023 17:00 utc | 9
When the missles are finally launched all speculation and discussion will be useless; along with this entire planet!! Liz Chaney has a point " our leaders are idiots "!!!
Posted by: cousin lucky | Jun 28 2023 17:02 utc | 10
@ Spen Fuelrod | Jun 28 2023 16:57 utc | 7
"Look what these bastards are doing to this country. There's soldiers under this rubble all over."
Not an expert, but the fellow sounds South African to me.
Northern England. I'd say around Wigan.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 28 2023 17:05 utc | 11
Posted by: Spen Fuelrod | Jun 28 2023 16:57 utc | 7
"... soldiers under this rubble all over."
Not an expert, but the fellow sounds South African to me.
No doubt. South African. I'd recognise that whiny twang anywhere ...
Could be these guys: Executive Outcomes
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 17:06 utc | 12
Lord Bebo makes some good deductions to move in the general region of the truth.
https://twitter.com/MyLordBebo/status/1674023498904215555
Posted by: teddy salad | Jun 28 2023 17:07 utc | 13
I felt quite sick to see some of the latest killfest videos of Ukrainian kids in a minefield, having their legs blown off. This is what should be shown on US,UK and European Prime Time TV - a bit like events in Vietnam??? Might actually put some of the pro-war audience off a bit...
So then listened to Rolo - see the previous thread. He was very convincing for an hour, but gave his real views away in the last 15 minutes....probably CIA as probably is Riley Waggaman - though he has a bit more style, and a much better sense of humour.
I agree with both of them about some stuff, but not the CIA should control the world, whilst bumping off the occasional President (even on their own side)
As far as our British "elite" are concerned, they are so completely utterley useless at Everything, if it wasn't for the wall to wall propaganda and brainwashing, no one would take any of them seriously, and most of us intensely dislike them.
Posted by: tonyopmoc | Jun 28 2023 17:08 utc | 14
And right on cue, here we go again:
Deadly clashes in Nagorno-Karabakh as Armenia-Azerbaijan engage in US peace talks
Al Jazeera English:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rD4kZ-jZqms
Right in the middle of talks being mediated by the US. Connect all the dots you can ...
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 17:09 utc | 15
always hiding behind human shields is what makes these 'people' 'special'. looks like mama bear lost patience at this point.
Posted by: Homer Simpson | Jun 28 2023 17:10 utc | 16
Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 17:06 utc | 12
Executive Outcomes was dissolved on 31 December 1998.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 28 2023 17:12 utc | 17
Contest between Prig and Shoigu is about whether the SMO should be fast or slow. Western media would not try to convince us that Putin is in trouble if they didn't know that Prig's ghost will get the SMO to go fast from now on. Maybe that is the reason Prig was allowed to have his way to begin with. Does Russia have a choice? What happens if Ukie joins Nato?
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 28 2023 17:13 utc | 18
Gen. Sergei Surovikin of course knew that something was up with Wagner. The whole Russian leadership knew of it. Orders were obviously given for everyone to stand down and to let Prigozhin do what he had planned to do.
Most probably. There had been certain war reporters (voenkors) and bloggers, who had been working silently on the matter with the Wagner soldiers, explaining that they shouldn't go with Prigozin and his gang on that 'insurrection'. Some Wagner soldiers, it appears, never left their Lugansk bases, or turned back. This is mentioned by some of them.
Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 17:14 utc | 19
When drones were first being touted as game changers over a decade ago, i warned they could be turned against their masters, and Russia is the master of EW.
A few days ago I talked about what I thought Russia was working on next:. Knocking nato missiles off course, and making them hit their own targets, noting that this is the type of task an ai could calculate in seconds
Posted by: UWDude | Jun 28 2023 17:16 utc | 20
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 28 2023 17:12 utc | 17
Executive Outcomes was dissolved on 31 December 1998.
You're partly correct. It was forced 'underground' due to various scandals impacting the South African government.
It has been resurrected since 2020:
Private Military Contractor Executive Outcomes Revived After 22 Years
Of course, they don't make them like they used to.
No Rhodesian Selous Scouts.
No Ex Recce or SADF.
Not sure where they're getting good cannon fodder from.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 17:17 utc | 21
Re: Armenia Clashes
The War Party has as part of its Grand Strategy to destabilize the periphery of Russia-Eurasia. We can expect lots of energy going into these destabilization efforts.
Expect more such chaos over the next couple of years, all courtesy-of-the-red-white-and-blue
Posted by: Exile | Jun 28 2023 17:23 utc | 22
Results of the Kramatorsk strike
Several foreign mercenaries lit up at the site of the strike, who, however, did not hide their presence in Ukraine and actively shared details of their everyday lives on social networks. Alex Gallant, Arno Dedeker and Nick Duckworth are among those who came to the safari.
On one of the videos, the tattoo of the wounded man is clearly visible, meaning belonging to the 3rd battalion of the 75th Ranger Regiment of the US Armed Forces. Either an instructor, or a mercenary, or an ichthamnet.
Another video shows a man in uniform with the emblem of the 101st Airborne Division of the US Armed Forces.
There were also foreign journalists and three Colombians at the facility – writer Hector Abad, politician Sergio Jaramillo and journalist Catalina Gomez.
There are also Ukrainian military among the liquidated. For example, a 22-year-old member of "Azov" (banned in the Russian Federation) Artem Sukhovey.
In one of the videos with the consequences of the strikes, a voice-over says that there are only soldiers under the ruins.
According to the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the targets of the strike were the management of the 56th brigade gathered in the Kramatorsk café and another higher command of the AFU.
- Kostnews, Sasha Kots
Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 17:23 utc | 23
On Kramatorsk , Kyev speaks with forked tongue about S-300 missiles -- they "are known for their inaccuracy" but "an alleged Russian spy suspected of coordinating Russian fire in the attack."
President Volodymyr Zelensky said Russia "brutally attacked Kramatorsk with S-300 missiles." “Each such manifestation of terror proves over and over again to us and the whole world that Russia deserves only one thing as a result of everything it has done — defeat and a tribunal, fair and legal trials against all Russian murderers and terrorists,” Zelensky said in an evening address. Soviet-made S-300 missile systems, originally designed for air defense, have been repurposed by Russia to attack land targets in Ukraine. The repurposed air defense missiles are known for their inaccuracy and have become Russia's weapon of choice for attacks against the cities. . . .here
The Security Service of Ukraine (SBU) reported on June 28 that it detained an alleged Russian spy suspected of coordinating Russian fire in the attack on Kramatorsk's restaurant on June 27. At least ten people were killed in the missile strike, Kramatorsk Mayor Oleksandr Vasyliev confirmed after another body was retrieved from the rubble, while 60 people were injured, according to the State Emergency Service. . . .here
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 28 2023 17:25 utc | 24
The Washington Post reports:
"The pizza restaurant was frequented by members of the military and foreign journalists. Ukrainian police said the restaurant was hit by an Iskander missile."
Seems to me it was a legitimate target. This is war after all. Of course, they don't say it was *foreign military personnel* there. Google Maps lists the Ria Lounge as a bar. Where else would military types go? As such, I'm a bit skeptical about the presence of children there.
Posted by: Cesar Jeopardy | Jun 28 2023 17:25 utc | 25
Spen Fuelrod | Jun 28 2023 16:57 utc | 7
I agree. South African accent.
Posted by: Vragtes | Jun 28 2023 17:28 utc | 26
Lord Bebo @MyLordBebo
🚨Missile strike in Kramatorsk summarized:
- Russian MoD reported today:
“In the city of Kramatorsk of the Donetsk People's Republic, the point of temporary deployment of the commanders of the 56th motorized infantry brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was hit.”
- Volunteers around the restaurant confirm that soldiers are under the rubble (video)
- Videos from the rescue and instagram posts confirm that (former?) Canadian and US soldiers were on site. (Next Post)
- The SBU arrested a “Russian spy” who have gave out the position for the strike in Kramatorsk. Now you don’t do that, if Russia randomly attacks civilians! You do that only if something important was hit. (Thread next post)
- Kramatorsk TG Channel says that Russians attacked a village with an Iskander missile and killed civilians. They show a lot of destroyed buildings, that are obviously rubble for month. (Video + screenshot)
- But at the end they show a crater in the middle of the road, which is being repaired. This crater fits the size of an S-300 missile. Such missiles Ukraine uses as AD in this region. (Patriots around Kiev)
- When an AD missile like S300 explodes a bunch of shrapnel fly around, that is by design to damage everything around it and injures people.
- Now Zelensky just said that Russia used an S300 missile to attack civilians. Directly contradicting the Kramatorsk TG report. (Screenshot)
💡-> So if we puzzle this together, we can see what happened:
1) Russia launched a missile attack on a Hotel where NATO instructors and Ukrainian soldiers where living. (Hotels that close to the front, don’t have other clients, really.)
2) Russia hit directly during an army Pizza party. As instagram posts of western volunteers show.
3) Ukraine tried to shoot down the incoming Russian missile with a S300 SAM. This failed and it hit the village injuring civilians.
🚨Reminder: Just when Ukraine switched from S300 AD to Patriots in Kiev, Russians stopped attacking residential buildings in Kiev with S300 missiles. That is either the biggest coincidence recorded, or it was friendly fire previously.
PS: I was not able to confirm a US Blackhawk helicopter coming in, nor a misfired Storm Shadow. I found no evidence for this.
Posted by: Bebo post | Jun 28 2023 17:29 utc | 27
Posted by: teddy salad | Jun 28 2023 17:00 utc | 8
Whenever Ukraine/Zelensky says S-300, it means failed AFU S-300. The S-300 "ground mode" has been one of the key MSM talking points since 2022 Summer, which simply means failed AFU missile.
Without knowing what happened, I'd assume that a S-300 hit the village they were talking about. The version of the mercenary hotel California in Kramatorsk is bit more tricky. There was Shadow storm and there was also a version of the "Russian missile". The strike was included in the MOD report, so assumedly it was some RU missile, for which they could probably use Iskander.
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 28 2023 17:33 utc | 28
b. thanks for this overview.
So what have we learned today?
NATO has boots on the ground from the USA, Canada, UK, and South Africans as some argue. So far a mercenaries from RSA were about 3, 1 died and 2 left, but that could be an old statistic. It is a free market, after all.
And so it seems a lot of active duty foreign military running around.
That helps Ukrainian army keep up, but for how long?
Also, why is nobody digging deeper in GRU vs. FSB conflict?
As now the donkey in the middle becomes a Russian Military, and they do not like that role. A danger is in military neutering of a civilian leadership, up to the sub-executive layer, but no further and never against Putin.
That top layer is definitely not corrupt or anti patriotic and military knows this.
But some heads will roll, sure, no question, and Putin will have to compromise and mediate there a lot. But he lost a war in Iraq.
That is the only truth there is.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 28 2023 17:34 utc | 29
The London Review of Books blogger, Greg Afinogev writes about the drama:
"...What is already clear is that the attempted coup is a watershed moment for the Russian far right. It may be tempting to read Prigozhin’s criticisms of the invasion, which echo Western reporting, as a nod to antiwar sentiment. They are not. His actual view of the war is: ‘We didn’t start this special operation, but once the village has ended in a shitshow and you and your neighbours are fucking each other up, you’d better fuck them up to the end.’ Thomas Friedman said something similar about Iraq, though he used a more genteel analogy.
"Prigozhin’s admiration for the Ukrainian military, on the other hand, is real enough: he would like Russia to be what he thinks Ukraine has become in the crucible of conflict – a society single-mindedly devoted to mobilising and sacrificing for ultimate victory. The main crime of Russia’s wealthy elites and bureaucrats like Shoigu, in Prigozhin’s eyes, is their failure to take the war seriously enough to achieve this end: instead of the frozen conflict in which the country now finds itself, Russia needs to ‘live for a certain number of years like North Korea, close all the borders, stop pussyfooting around.’ These points are familiar touchstones of the Russian nationalist right, especially its most vocal representative, the video streamer and Telegram poster Igor Girkin, aka Strelkov..."
https://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2023/june/prigozhin-s-march-on-moscow
Posted by: bevin | Jun 28 2023 17:34 utc | 30
to the neolibcon uniparty ruling the atlantic every enemy is diem and every outlaw country s vietnam,
what they deny is they made s vietnam!
neolibcon are deluded.
Posted by: paddy | Jun 28 2023 17:35 utc | 32
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 28 2023 17:34 utc | 29
Also, why is nobody digging deeper in GRU vs. FSB conflict?
That's a really interesting angle. History Legends seems to be doing the most on connecting the dots here. Seems to be on to something in his latest video.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 17:39 utc | 33
If soldiers were hit, the target is legit. Even if they hide in a church.
If they were foreigners, so much better.
I guess we will soon have another crash on an American base to explain the dead.
Posted by: G wiltek | Jun 28 2023 17:39 utc | 34
Issues with the PBS article/Bebo scenario. 1) Doesn't make any sense the Russians would target a pizza restaurant with possible civilians inside or nearby, even close to the front. Even if it was 100% certain that Ukrainian and foreign soldiers were inside. 2) Russians are using Iskanders yes, but initially claiming it as S-300 is suspicious. And since when have the Ukrainian Federal Police become experts on military hardware and Russian tactics?
Most reasonable scenario is S-300 fired at something else missed and hit the restaurant, or hit an Iskander and it fell on the restaurant. Odds are good that foreign mercs would be there: they're advising and it's near the front. Ukraine changes story to make PR hay over Russians being terrorists. Russia claims it fired on a target, but it's not the hotel but a nearby target where military was meeting rather than eating lunch. War fog rolls in.
Posted by: teddy salad | Jun 28 2023 17:41 utc | 35
(Just posted this at the bottom of an older thread but better here perhaps.)
What 99% of those here including the host apparently fail to understand (wilful in some cases perhaps, amerikan in others, ignorance about history in many) is that the entire play is aimed at a narrow domestic target. That audience knows exactly who they are and they understand the message loud and clear. How the western media, msm, alt media, commentators, telegrammists hamming it up for their groupies, twits, various other hangers-on and their groupies react is entirely irrelevant and of no interest to the cast and director.
The message to this very particular domestic audience is Stop right there! You know we know what you are up to. You can see there will be consequences for you and your project. (And for your amerikan and european sponsors, though this is incidental to the core domestic purpose.) This is exactly where skuratov comes into the understanding. One of the reasons the more rational and the better-informed among those 99% (plus host) and others who should know better may be failing so miserably to grasp what has been occurring (for many months now w.r.t. YVP) is a misguided "certainty" about how secure it really is at the top for the man at the top and his powerbase (perhaps partly fed by over-confidence in popularity polling, which though true, counts for little when plotters' push comes to shove. Inner circles are riddled with disloyals, semi-loyals, fairweather friends and fence-sitters. The numbers of truly trustworthy are relatively tiny. Among them is this one P (YVP) we are so focused on. Towards other obvious Ps there is disregard or growing suspicion (the media P and the P pere et fils for instance,. certain general and certain ministers too). By the way, it's not a matter of flushing out socalled 5th 6th or umpteenth columnists. Everyone domestically knows qho they are and they know everyone knows. For the VVP-YVP action to be brought forward as it may have been suggests a pressing imminent domestic event about to be triggered (co-ordinated no doubt by usak-nato action). There are several signs that this is exactly the case. The skuratov plan was hatched well over a year ago (on a slow burner almost certainly from 2018 onwards). I have mentioned skuratov several times over the past months whenever those here and eslewhere who should know better get antsy about the YVP whale surfacing and spouting from his blowhole; but in mentioning skuratov I am not referring to events as they unfolded with the oprichnina but the wise and necessary thinking behind it, the plan and to a certain extent its progression. Ivan iv's reign is very well studied, analysed and remembered collectively among all Russians, where the education system is still streets ahead of those in the west. Notwithstanding all the utter nonsense from exalted experts in the west, even those who assert some knowledge about RF and her people, like Mercouris or those who live there, like Korybko, you can be sure that the target audience for these events have been and are reading the obvious finger-wagging message between the lines and being forced to delay if not abandon their rebellion. Of course, operational aspects like redeployment of forces this way and that, regulars south towards the Don and PMC west into Belarus, are happy by-products to the core domestic purpose of this enactment.
Posted by: petra | Jun 28 2023 17:45 utc | 36
Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 17:17 utc | 21
Forgot Koevoet.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 28 2023 17:47 utc | 37
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 28 2023 17:47 utc | 37
Forgot Koevoet.
Good lord that certainly takes me back ...
None left among the living I'd imagine.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 17:51 utc | 38
Nothing makes me angrier than learning American soldiers are fighting for the fascists in Ukraine. These Nazis must be eliminated.
Posted by: Wilikins | Jun 28 2023 17:54 utc | 39
Spen Fuelrod | Jun 28 2023 16:57 utc | 7
Accent sounds South African to me too. I can't rule out New Zealand. Not British.
Posted by: Brendan | Jun 28 2023 17:56 utc | 40
Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 17:23 utc | 23
What is this word "ichthamnet"?
Posted by: catdog | Jun 28 2023 17:58 utc | 41
Cesar Jeopardy @25: "Google Maps lists the Ria Lounge as a bar. Where else would military types go? As such, I'm a bit skeptical about the presence of children there."
This is Nazi Ukraine we are talking about, and there were some VIPs at the pizza party. You know exactly what those children were there for.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 28 2023 17:59 utc | 42
Gotta love the Times, 'Putin's 23 years in power,' except for 2008-2012 when Medvedev was President. Guess it just doesn't jibe with the narrative to tell readers the truth though.
Posted by: Caveman | Jun 28 2023 18:03 utc | 43
Another provocation along the periphery:
Taiwan has said it spotted two Russian warships off its eastern coast on Tuesday and sent its own aircraft and ships to monitor the vessels’ movements.
The Ministry of National Defence said in a statement late on Tuesday that the Russian frigates had been seen “sailing from south to north in the waters off our eastern coast” as of 11pm local time (15:00 GMT).
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/6/28/taiwan-detects-two-russian-warships-near-its-waters
On queue, all Uncle Sam's vassals creep out of the woodwork to heed their master's voice.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 18:03 utc | 44
One Azov dude and his australian friend with his sister. There alive. https://t.me/MilitaryThemeZ/6284?single
Posted by: Namethat | Jun 28 2023 18:04 utc | 45
You know exactly what those children were there for.
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 28 2023 17:59 utc | 42
———————————————
Horrifying but tragically true. Ever since the Epstein revelations, it’s no longer crazy to suspect such criminal depravity
Posted by: Exile | Jun 28 2023 18:08 utc | 46
"There was zero action taken by the border guards, the internal security force Rosguardia, by the police and the Russian military. That is unexplainable unless there was an order from very high up to step back instead of seeking a fight."
What on earth are you on about? It is _easily_ explainable without such an order: the low-level soldiers and commanders could have refused to attack Wagner no matter the instructions from their superiors. C.f. every successful revolution in history. And this is the most likely explanation, more so than any cunning 4D chess psyop plan. Partly because the Rosvguardia would have gotten their ass handed to them by 4000 of the best fighters in Russia (and probably the world right now) and partly because they were sympathetic. Shoigu is totally incompetent, totally corrupt and absolutely loathed by the officers, the grunts and civilians. And it turns out nobody is going to take a bullet for him.
Posted by: NonLinear9 | Jun 28 2023 18:11 utc | 47
Isn't it considered a war crime to have military assets in civilian areas? For just this reason.
Posted by: ASensibleMan | Jun 28 2023 18:13 utc | 48
update from STEPHEN BRYEN - worth the short read...
Unknown Unknowns About Russian Coup
How Deep is the Revolt in Russia's army?
Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 18:14 utc | 49
Northern England. I'd say around Wigan.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 28 2023 17:05 utc | 11
Napoleon's retreat from Wigan - Local comedian Mike Harding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rv_Cp5XGJQc
Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 18:14 utc | 50
On Saturday, Mrs. Surovikina didn't cancel her hair appointment at her Moscow Hair Salon. Let that sink in.
Posted by: PsiOpticus | Jun 28 2023 18:15 utc | 51
Re: De-Dollarization
Short article on latest Treasury debt sales. Takeaway Interest rates on new debt is sky high, plus foreigners not interested in buying
Posted by: Exile | Jun 28 2023 18:16 utc | 52
So a column of 2,000 men shoot down as many aircraft in one day as Ukraine shoots down in half a year. OK. This means after MOD or RAF learns Wagner breakaway mutiny caravan has already used AD missiles to take down a plane and helicopter they keep sending more helicopters to be shot down without firing on Wagner.
So now I'm buying the idiocy/incompetent angle.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 28 2023 18:18 utc | 54
Posted by: NonLinear9 | Jun 28 2023 18:11 utc | 47
Shoigu is totally incompetent, totally corrupt and absolutely loathed by the officers, the grunts and civilians. And it turns out nobody is going to take a bullet for him.
And another moron stops by to shit on the forum and then fly away ...
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 28 2023 18:18 utc | 55
Re: Kramatorsk Missile Attack
In western media there were reports that it was S-300 missiles involved in the bombing. Does it make sense for Russia to use them or is it the Ukrainian
trying to knock down the Russian missiles?
Posted by: angelo | Jun 28 2023 18:21 utc | 56
Why would MOD be monitoring Wagner mutiny mm arch with human piloted very expensive attack and sigint copters and not cheap drones.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 28 2023 18:27 utc | 57
What is this word "ichthamnet"?
Posted by: catdog | Jun 28 2023 17:58 utc | 41
------------------
"Either an instructor, or a mercenary, or an ichthamnet."
Ich tam niet (they are not there), a fun word in a way. You know, there aren't any foreign soldiers officially.
Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 18:29 utc | 58
I suggest listening to people like:
Posted by: petra | Jun 28 2023 17:45 utc | 36
And other Russian political commentators/analysts. The whole Prigozhin affair is much more about domestic “politics” and power plays in Russia than it is about the SMO. It intersects with the SMO primarily opinions about how the conflict should be prosecuted, who gets the spoils and similar. Exactly what precipitated Prigozhin’s actions are likely SMO related, as are any connections with foreign intelligence services … though those are more geopolitical than Ukraine specific. But that’s far less important internally than the real divisions.
And there is danger for Putin here because a long, costly war has domestic consequences. Yes, it is attriting NATO capability but it’s foolish to argue that that’s why Russia is going slow as if it’s all some grand plan to bring down the empire. That’s a benefit of the pace but the cost of the pace is high and nobody can determine whether the cost outweighs the benefit.
Posted by: Lex | Jun 28 2023 18:30 utc | 59
Now I posted yesterday that Wagner numbers were claimed to be c 25,000 but B claims 20,000. I don't have any information so don't know. Big Serge claimed I think (from memory not doubled checked) that 14,000 Wagner troops died in taking Bakhmut - which implies total casualties c 4X that is c 60,000. However the point I am making is that this was a bloody battle for Wagner [assuming all these numbers are vaguely correct] and it is therefore possible that some element may be p*ssed with their treatment. This may help explain the leniency that was afforded them by the Putin Stavka. In the end I think re Wagner a good result was obtained for Russia - those that want to follow Prig go to BR, those that want to fight join the RF and those that want to go home do so. Wagner is popular in Russia so I guess putin has played this as well as he could. I still think that Prig was played by the west and if proved his future may be short.
Posted by: marcjf | Jun 28 2023 18:32 utc | 60
Any comments from fellow barflies about the rumors regarding Surovikin being thrown in prison? Smells like a NAFO psyop to me, but can not find any info contradicting the claims.
Posted by: Akash | Jun 28 2023 18:34 utc | 61
The restaurant where all the videos are taken was within the building complex that included the hotel. No filming inside the hotel occurred because its interior was the point of impact, the restaurant was on the periphery and is where triage for the wounded was set up. One Twitter account I read yesterday was by a European journalist who had ate and exited only a few minutes before the missile hit. It's most likely that "illegal intelligence" provided the basis for the strike. The presence was very overt, so it can be said they brought the missile down upon themselves.
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 28 2023 18:27 utc | 58
The only footage I've seen is of a chopper deploying defensive measures and being narrowly missed by a missile which then apparently struck an oil depot. Is there still no footage of actual shootdowns? Could the claims of shootdowns have been a deception aimed at panicking Prigozhin into agreeing to Lukashenko's offer and hotfooting it out of Russia?
Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 18:40 utc | 64
65. Indeed. I doubt any aircraft were lost, but the appearance of said losses was critical for two reasons:
1) convincing their external sponsors shit was for real so money would be spent and
2) convincing the primary internal audience the shit was for real so that a great indignation and rally round the flag would occur
Analysts relying on Putin being a good widdle boy and double triple swearing on a stack of bibles to make their case casulaties occured is amusing, even if I am wrong - which is of course possible. I doubt it, however.
I tend to see 'official' Western estimates that plane losses occured as ass covering by the dipshits who lost the bribe money. If they had evidence that shit would be across the 247 news channels for a week at least.
P.S. I'm disappointed my name change for PIGGY-1 to tactical espionage clown wasn't accepted. I wish to file an appeal.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 28 2023 18:49 utc | 65
By the way, some of the 'western' MSM had already or as usual "arrested" general Surovkin and general Yudin on the Prigozin matter. How many more? :)
Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 18:50 utc | 66
Re: NATO OPSEC
Recall a few years ago, US special forces loved using some regular ol’ jogging app to record their runs. Turned out anyone could see the daily jogging routes. A bunch of secret bases were revealed as a result.
Posted by: Exile | Jun 28 2023 18:51 utc | 67
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 28 2023 18:49 utc | 66
----------
Have you also checked Biden's arse too?
Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 18:52 utc | 68
I don’t know what all this “bru-hah-“ about Kramatorsk “civilian” killing is all about. Doesn’t matter if it was Russian “direct missile launch”. Or Ukr. “Defense” S300 activated and inadvertently civilians were killed.
Donbas “civilians” are daily shelled, killed and wounded & have been since 2014.
From the Dnieper to Lviv, Kiev, & any land unoccupied by Russia , time to kill them all. Mercs, Spies, NATO, Volunteers, GRU, Nazi, Ukraine Military everything…kill them all. The “civilians” will be conscripted for cannon fodder anyways. The old and young, sold & killed for organs, and the women and young girls & boys, sex trafficked & sold.
So, on with it.
Posted by: Trubind1 | Jun 28 2023 18:54 utc | 69
Biden was busy telling Modi how he sold state secrets or something. He's a hard guy to understand and I really didn't want to poke around in his diaper.
A joke, you see. Just a joke. Not a man consumed by dementia, nothing to see here folks!
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 28 2023 18:55 utc | 70
… “illegal intelligence" …
Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 28 2023 18:34 utc | 63
Perhaps the cause of this translation of remarks by V.V.P. is an interaction of the original Russian idiom, which might be closest to the English “clandestine intelligence”, and automated translation that has failed learn the specialised terms.
Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 28 2023 18:56 utc | 71
@ Akash | Jun 28 2023 18:34 utc | 62
read the link i left @ 49..
Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 18:57 utc | 72
Lukashenko with the head of the Ministry of Defense of Belarus
"While the Wagnerians are still out of work, we need to ask their commanders to meet with our commanders at the training ground to show and tell them tactics and weapons, how to attack and how to defend.
It's priceless. This is what we need to take from the Wagnerians. It is necessary to use this experience of the war, and especially on the part of Wagner. How we prepare for a modern war is very important now! And there is no need to be afraid of the Wagnerians, they are the same Russian people as we are."
------- Two Majors
Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 18:57 utc | 73
"There was zero action taken by the border guards, the internal security force Rosguardia, by the police and the Russian military. That is unexplainable..."
It is not unexplainable if this whole "coup-attempt" was a staged psyop carried out to identify rogue assets inside the Russian military and political institutions.
I read on Italian MSM that Russian dissident Ilja Ponomariov (who fights on Ukrainian side) claimed a couple of days ago that the socalled “Prigozhin-coup” was indeed staged and has been carried out to “clean up the Russian establishment”. He also says the Ukrainians were ready to attack Belgorod, but the region was full of Russian troops which have been deployed to “defend Moskow from Wagner”. Here the link: https://www.repubblica.it/esteri/2023/06/25/news/golpe_russia_intervista_ponomaryov-405732480/
Reply
Posted by: AndC | Jun 28 2023 19:02 utc | 74
Any comments from fellow barflies about the rumors regarding Surovikin being thrown in prison? Smells like a NAFO psyop to me, but can not find any info contradicting the claims.
Posted by: Akash | Jun 28 2023 18:34 utc | 62
MSM citing the Moscow Times ... [hint it is not in Moscow]
Reminds me of a story about L.B. Johnson advising his candidate to replace a sheriff in Texas:
LBJ: put out a rumour that he has regular sex with his horse -
Candidate: but that is totally untrue -
LBJ: of course it - but let's see if we can get him to DENY it ---
Moral of the story: denying the ridiculous can make one look very ridiculous -
Posted by: Don Firineach | Jun 28 2023 19:06 utc | 76
The market in Frankfurt is remarkably optimistic about Ukraine's chances.
https://www.boerse-frankfurt.de/bond/xs1577952952-ukraine-republik-7-375-17-34/charts
Posted by: Wim | Jun 28 2023 19:07 utc | 77
A military analyst, possibly Ritter, said that Russia would not use an S300 to attack a ground target when it has Iskanders, because the S300 has a smaller payload and isn't as effective. And Russia appears to have plenty of Iskanders and cruise missile, so why would it?
As for 'illegal intelligence,' I've suspected that there are a number of people inside of Ukraine who are providing targeting info to the Russian military. Either that or Russia just has a real knack for finding those ammo dumps and command centers hidden inside warehouses and defunct shopping malls.
Posted by: Mike R | Jun 28 2023 19:09 utc | 78
Posted by: Wim | Jun 28 2023 19:07 utc | 78
Lol. Try zooming out to the 5 year view.
Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 19:11 utc | 79
Northern England. I'd say around Wigan.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 28 2023 17:05 utc | 11
Nope. Definitely Afrikkaner. I am a northern lad. Accent not from Lancashire.
Posted by: AobhOSeachnasaigh | Jun 28 2023 19:11 utc | 80
b: Two points.
1) Wagner allegedly had access to Pantsirs in Syria, according to some reports. Whether they were supposed to have them in Ukraine is another question. I suppose there is the possibility that, if he had people who could operate the system in Syria, they could have "hijacked" one from the Russian regular army in Ukraine. This sort of "borrowing" happens in any military.
Also there is the question of whether any Pantsir in the alleged convoy was traveling on its own and operational, or whether it was operational on any vehicle transport platform it was on. In Rostov I did see a vehicle which looked like a Pantsir but I think it was on a transporter, not rolling on its own. But I think that was they were leaving and being on a transporter for the ride back to Ukraine would make sense.
In other words, the question is was the Pantsir there just to be good looks for the convoy or was it really intended to be used as air defense for the convoy? This relates to the issue of whether they were supposed to have them. I assume the Pantsir is not a system that can be readily used effectively by someone who is not familiar with it. So either Wagner had people who WERE familiar with it or they had regular Russian army personnel who were.
Lots of questions here we don't have adequate answers for.
2) I have yet to see any actual evidence of helicopters or planes shot down, other than Putin's random reference to "fallen pilots" in his speech. I've no doubt SOMETHING happened, but the loss count is quite possibly bullshit as all of it is sourced from a couple Russian bloggers and filtered through Ukrainian source, as I established in earlier threads. If you have better links, I'd like to see them posted.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 19:14 utc | 81
Accent of the poor worried Nazi in the pizza-restaurant/bar ?
South African or Zimbabwean ,definitely. Identifying accents is my party-trick and I am very good at it. Some people said Aussie or North England. Nope, no way. I am Aussie and know an Aussie accent. I have also heard Northern Brits and have friends from there, Jordies and Scousers amongst others etc. This accented Nazi is not British
Posted by: Boy | Jun 28 2023 19:17 utc | 82
South African - met these 'bawstards' on the open side of the scrum a few times - tough 'bawstards' these South Africans - and this guy is of English 'bawstard', as distinct from Boer 'bawwstard', South African heritage ...
One doesn't mess with Boer Bawsstards in the scrum - we have actually hired quite a few of them to beef up our own scrums ... great lads!
Posted by: Don Firineach | Jun 28 2023 19:20 utc | 83
@55, thanks for the kind words, but I'm not shitting on the forum, I'm shitting on Shoigu (sounds a bit like a campaign slogan!). He's a Tuvan gangster who dislikes ethnic Russians, never served in the military, doesn't seem particularly bright, and appears to be heavily responsible for the fuckups of the early SMO through lack of planning. He apparently thought it would just be like Crimea, but bigger. Bro . . .
Ever wonder where all the money spent in the 2010s to roll out Russian superweapons like the T-14, Su-57, encrypted comms, etc. went and why RuAF is reduced to upgrading old T-64s out of mothballs while Shoigu parties in his extensive dachas?
Unfortunately the iron-clad rule of personnel management in the Kremlin seems to be that nobody can be fired for incompetence or corruption, only disloyalty (and even that is questionable). That is no way to run a railroad, let alone an existential war. WTF?
Posted by: NonLinear9 | Jun 28 2023 19:20 utc | 84
Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 18:50 utc | 67
If western shills are quick to frame them, they must be worthy of our consideration, likely of our support.
Conversely, any prominent Russian figures those shills fail to denounce must be regarded with suspicion, possibly contempt.
Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 28 2023 19:20 utc | 85
Posted by: BB | Jun 28 2023 18:36 utc | 64
Are f**king serious? Have you ever been to Australia? If you can't tell a South African accent from an Australian then keep your mouth shut lest you open it and offend someone.
Posted by: Patroklos | Jun 28 2023 19:22 utc | 86
77 - I heard the same story. Johnson won one election in Texas very narrowly and was nicknamed "Landslide Lyndon" - it was certainly not because of lack of ruthlessness in his tactics.
The version of the story about bestiality was that his aide said the claim was one nobody would believe. Johnson then said, "I want to hear the son of a bitch deny it." Presumably the principle is that "something always sticks". And if the other guy denied it it would just give more publicity to the accusation.
I recall an election in Britain where a candidate for parliament, who we shall call A, very narrowly failed to defeat an opponent. As it happened A had been arrested some months before for "cottaging" - homosexual behaviour in a public lavatory. It was reported in the local press - I suspect that he might have won the election without that little hiccup. Or his party might have, with a different candidate. But that wasn't a case of false claims by an opponent - he really was caught in a public toilet.
Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 19:22 utc | 87
Posted by Bevin
"Prigozhin’s admiration for the Ukrainian military, on the other hand, is real enough: he would like Russia to be what he thinks Ukraine has become in the crucible of conflict – a society single-mindedly devoted to mobilising and sacrificing for ultimate victory.…”
LOL. What a ridiculous comment. About 75% of that wonder military, the ‘society single-mindedly devoted to mobilising [sic] and sacrificing for ultimate victory’ are press ganged into service, dragged off unwillingly to the front to almost certain death or dismemberment. They would gladly surrender but are so afraid to take a bullet in the back from their ‘comrades’.
The jig is up with Prighozin. I think he’s a self serving person and his loyalty is to himself. He strikes me as a person who would sell out Russians and Russia, as he has just proven. It is a puzzle to me why he is still alive. He is a traitor through and through. Unless, of course, Maskirovka, which i don’t think is the case.
Posted by: AobhOSeachnasaigh | Jun 28 2023 19:23 utc | 88
@ Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 19:14 utc | 82
this is the 4th or 5th time i have shared this link the past 4 days... what do you think? real or apparent, but not real?
Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 19:24 utc | 89
Posted by: AndC | Jun 28 2023 19:02 utc | 75
We're listening to Ukrainians explaining Russians now?
The most likely explanation for the stand down of Russian security while Wagner was moving to Rostov is likely that Putin had given orders to allow them through in order to avoid bloodshed until their intentions were evident. He also was likely warned about the move shortly before or after it started by people in the Wagner Council of Commanders who were not involved and clearly did not support Prigozhin. We have no idea what he knew and when and what his decision was about allowing the movement to proceed as far as it did.
An article I read today also suggested that there was some alleged testimony from someone that Prigozhin may have lied to the Wagner fighters accompanying him by suggesting that the move was intended to go to Belgorod and help defend the border there. I don't know what to make of that claim, but anything is possible.
There's also the possibility that the time frame between Russian security understanding what was going on and the time Putin was informed may have had something to do with it. The border security may not have been informed or may have been incorrectly or deliberately informed by someone to allow the border crossing. It was Wagner, after all - a unit under the command of the MoD. Border security may not have automatically assumed that it was a hostile movement.
And then there's the question of assembling the responding forces required to take down Wagner if it came to that and where that interdiction, if it was ordered, would occur. That probably gave Wagner time to make it to Rostov. They were traveling on public roads mixed with civilian transports as the videos show, so Russian security would be reluctant to start carpet bombing the place.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 19:24 utc | 91
Posted by: BB | Jun 28 2023 18:36 utc | 64
I'm guessing you're American. I don't need to hear your voice to gauge the level of parochial ignorance. I'm Australian and can tell from an US accent what part of the USA they're from. Americans just lump all funny soundin' accents as 'from England' or they attempt to look smart and get it badly wrong. Exhibit 1: the Simpsons-go-to-Australia episode almost turned me off the show permanently. The South African/Zimbabwean accent of the speaker is so obvious from the first 3 seconds that if it's not obvious to you, STFU.
PS. you can see that confusing an Australian and South African accent has given great offence. Grrr!
Posted by: Patroklos | Jun 28 2023 19:28 utc | 92
Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 19:24 utc | 90
And I responded to that link earlier. If you're not going to read my posts in answer to you, why should I bother to answer this one?
Nonetheless I will. Can you provide ANY OSINT evidence that this picture is 1) real, 2) at the time specified, 3) at the location specified, 4) verified by ANYONE in a position to know?
Does that satisfy you - for the second time?
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 19:29 utc | 93
Shoigu's a Tuvan gangster who dislikes ethnic Russians
Posted by: NonLinear9 | Jun 28 2023 19:20 utc | 85
His mother was born and grew up in the Donbas!
Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 28 2023 19:30 utc | 94
Posted by: NonLinear9 | Jun 28 2023 19:20 utc | 85
-----------
Have you also checked Biden's arse?
Posted by: ostro | Jun 28 2023 19:31 utc | 95
LBJ and Ballot Box 13
https://roughdiplomacy.com/box-13-scandal/
Everyone should know about this vote stealing and election fraud being systemic in the US
Posted by: Exile | Jun 28 2023 19:31 utc | 96
Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 19:22 utc | 88
No! It was Blair! He was the one caught cottaging or frottaging . He gave only his middle name on arrest to the cops , but they still remember him and the incident. It was during his uni days. Remember things were different then; these things were crimes or at least looked down - upon by hard-boiled police. Somehow given special treatment so I wonder who had picked him out for higher things. Excellent blackmail material isn’t it? Hmm?
Posted by: Boy | Jun 28 2023 19:32 utc | 97
@ Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 19:29 utc | 94
okay.. thanks.. i missed your response.. i am sorry.. too many posts at moa these days.. cheers..
Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 19:35 utc | 98
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 28 2023 19:24 utc | 92
It is very unlikely that Prigozhin didn't know that his "insurrection" was doomed and that the Russian intelligence was aware of the plan. So, there are only 2 possibilities:
1) Prigozhin went rogue and knowingly did a kamikaze move.
2) Prigozhin along with Russian intelligence staged the whole thing.
Posted by: AndC | Jun 28 2023 19:38 utc | 99
@Waldorf | Jun 28 2023 19:22 utc | 88
All the way with LBJ ... he might not have invented the tactic but his story, whether true or not, has legs that stand the test of political time ...
And Clinton - 'I did not have sexual relations with that woman' - but he did!
The other Johnson - ' I did not lie to parliament' - but he did!
Nothing like a good chuckle at a politico's expense ... Thames Water - paid out 66 Billion in dividends and now 15 Billion in debt ... gives p1ssing into the Thames a bad name ...
Posted by: Don Firineach | Jun 28 2023 19:40 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
thanks b.. solid coverage on your part 24/7... your work is impressive! thanks..
Posted by: james | Jun 28 2023 16:41 utc | 1