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June 24, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-148
Comments
WARFARE:
A lot of folks think that the current Russo/Ukrainian war is going to keep going for a long time.
This may not be the case. In the history of major warfare there are usually long periods of struggle at the front or fronts followed by significant break throughs by the better led and stronger armies and/or navies.
The battle or continual battles usually leaves one party stronger and the other party weaker. The side that has better logistics is the one that most often wins. Often after major victories, the side that eliminates the most from the other side usually goes on to obtain signficant territorial gains. Often the major victories are preceded by the loss of a key or multiple key military leaders from one side.
For example: The battle of the Coral Sea (May 4-8, 1942) was not a decisive win for either the Japanese or the USA side. Yet, this battle did weaken the Japanese fleet somewhat allowing for an easier defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) at the Battle of Midway on June 3-6, 1942. During the battle of Midway, the Japanese lost 4 carriers and many of their more experienced pilots. The loss of both were significant. This further weakening of the Japanese fleet allowed the USA to extend Westward towards Guadalcanal during the Battle of Guadalcanal from November 12-15, 1942. The final battle that broke the back of the Japanese fleet was the Battle of the Philippine Sea (June 19,1944). In this battle the IJN was going to break the backbone of the US fleet. Yet, the opposite occurred. This was due mainly because the originator of the Japanese plans, Admiral Yamamoto had been taken out the previous year on April 18, 1943. His replacement had Yamamoto’s plan but he did not have the military skill to carry it out in success. Instead of taking out the Americans, the IJN pretty much got itself taken out at the Marianna Turkey shoot. After this battle, the IJN never was able to recover its control of the skies. And it was the Japanese that taught the Americans the importance of air power in naval warfare.
Each decisive US victory led to a weaker Japanese Navy/Army and a relatively stronger US Navy/Army until Japan’s final surrender.
Similar events are now occuring at the zero line in Ukraine. In May 2023, the city of Bakhmut fell to the Russians. This battle did take out a good number of Wagner forces. Yet, it much more weakened the Army Forces of Ukraine (AFU). Now a month later, the AFU’s offensive is being taken out with the far more significant damage being inflicted upon the AFU.
Eventually, the AFU will be weakened to a degree that major holes will develope in the very long battle lines in the Donbas, Zaporizhzhia and Kherson and Kharkiv areas.
NOTE: It is of interest that Ukrainian’s General Zaluzhny looks to be missing lately from the war effort. Zaluzhny was the best the Ukrainians had. He was a brilliant and capable commander of the Ukrainian forces. His being missing most likely is taking a morale hit upon the AFU. His missing is taking a leadership hit upon the AFU. This is similar to what happened to the IJN after Admiral Yamamodo was taken out. Yet, often the troops that lose significant commanders do not do so well. This is due to two main factors, that is loss of both morale and loss of capable leadership.
We know the timing of past battles and military victories and losses. We don’t know the complete timing of the Russo/Ukrainian war.
Whatever that timing will become, it will follow the pattern of past wars where there are periods of significant battle or battles followed by rapid advances of the stronger forces.
I suspect the AFU lines will break allowing significant Russian advances thereafter. I think this could happen sooner than most expect simply because of the rapid, weakened position Ukraine finds itself in.
Posted by: young | Jun 24 2023 9:37 utc | 1
The band plays on.
Slavyangrad
Archangel of Spetsnaz reports from the front:
The enemy is preparing for an offensive in the Orekhov-Rabotino direction: The hottest part of the 291st Regiment’s defence zone; artillery is working on the first echelon positions.
Enemy air defence forces do not have the advantage, our aviation is working. They respond with by short- and medium-range Tor-M1, Buk-M1.
Stepnogorsk: Reconnaissance forces uncovered an electronic warfare complex used to detect UAVs and completely block transmission of data, control and navigation signals. It caught a warm welcome from our artillery, eliminated.
Stepovoye: Aerial reconnaissance uncovered two artillery crews. To the west, a light transport was detected on which the enemy had transported personnel to the positions. The uncovered objects were hit by artillery.
Posted by: knighthawk | Jun 24 2023 10:10 utc | 2
Nato might make their move and claim in western Ukraine. Couldn’t imagine a better time to do it. Polish Duda claims he put Polish army in “high alert”.
The question is whether Natzo they come in with the banner this time (they might). Immediately, this has no relevance to the SMO, but logistic disruptions in Rostov would be very bad.
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 24 2023 10:37 utc | 3
continuing the band played on theme…
At night, the Russian Aerospace Forces launched a group strike with long-range precision weapons on electronic intelligence centers and aircraft of the Armed Forces of Ukraine
The strike was made on the airfields “Kanatovo” in the Kirovograd region and “Dnepr”. All designated objects were hit. The goal of the strike was achieved, the Russian Defense Ministry said.
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/52039
More targeting of airfields\aircraft on the ground, assuming they actually arrived while they were home.
Posted by: knighthawk | Jun 24 2023 11:12 utc | 4
@all –
this is the UKRAINE open thread.
There is a different thread for the farce currently being played in Russia.
Everything that belongs there and not here will be deleted!!!
As no doubt expected or as designed:
Ukrainian formations, taking advantage of the Russian turmoil, nevertheless increased pressure on the Bakhmut sector of the front. Russian fighters holding positions near Kleshcheevka have been reporting multiple surges on their positions since the very morning.
-rybar
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/52049
Posted by: knighthawk | Jun 24 2023 11:55 utc | 6
The Russian Armed Forces destroyed a warehouse with Storm Shadow cruise missiles at the Ukrainian air base in Starokonstantinov, Khmelnitsky region in response to an attack on a road bridge across the Chongar Strait – Russian Defense Ministry
About this ukry, of course, will not write. Follow the movement
@atodoneck ✅
https://t.me/CyberspecNews/34202
At least AFU is still being kept at bay and Natostani equipment eliminated. (Prigo will soon be gone, if he is still in the military HQ in Rostov, parts of Wagner PMC have reportedly returned to their deployment points)
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 24 2023 11:59 utc | 7
What happens to the war effort now? Is the whole mindset of Ukrainian failure now negated and replaced with Neo Con frenzy, “almost, almost, we can win !” ?
I hope not. It would only intensify the trend of ‘to the last Ukrainian’. I did note that the latest prisoners look old and tired and also that Ukr POWs seem to tell the same story, that their commanding officers are never at the front, as self sparing.
Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 24 2023 12:18 utc | 8
What happens to the war effort now?
Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 24 2023 12:18 utc | 8
Well, obviously, that depends on what Putin decides to do.
I think he will not do much yet, let things ripen a bit more. Let the western leaders marinate in their own folly a while longer.
I suppose it depends on what “the west” decides to do too, but less and less as time goes on. It is much too late to go back to what was.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 24 2023 12:59 utc | 9
It might been the major reason Bakhmut took so long to take, Prigozin’s double actions. Just heard Akhmat forces are on the wat to Rostov. They hate traitors!
Posted by: ostro | Jun 24 2023 12:59 utc | 10
Bemildred | Jun 24 2023 12:59 utc | 9
————–
One thing is certain. There won’t be any more mercenary armies in Russia!
Posted by: ostro | Jun 24 2023 13:02 utc | 11
In regard to the war effort, if the current difficulty is quickly resolved, perhaps it will contribute to Ukraine’s end.
The Neo Cons (of course) will be in a delusional frenzy, along with Ukraine leaders as well. However, cooler heads in the Pentagon might reason that the Russian military was given an unambiguous opportunity to support a coup and …..
they didn’t. Time for negotiations.
Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 24 2023 13:18 utc | 12
Posted by: young | Jun 24 2023 9:37 utc | 1
“For example: The battle of the Coral Sea (May 4-8, 1942) was not a decisive win for either the Japanese or the USA side. Yet, this battle did weaken the Japanese fleet somewhat allowing for an easier defeat of the Imperial Japanese Navy (IJN) at the Battle of Midway on June 3-6, 1942. During the battle of Midway, the Japanese lost 4 carriers and many of their more experienced pilots. The loss of both were significant. This further weakening of the Japanese fleet allowed the USA to extend Westward towards Guadalcanal during the Battle of Guadalcanal from November 12-15, 1942. The final battle that broke the back of the Japanese fleet was the Battle of the Philippine Sea (June 19,1944). In this battle the IJN was going to break the backbone of the US fleet. Yet, the opposite occurred. This was due mainly because the originator of the Japanese plans, Admiral Yamamoto had been taken out the previous year on April 18, 1943. His replacement had Yamamoto’s plan but he did not have the military skill to carry it out in success. Instead of taking out the Americans, the IJN pretty much got itself taken out at the Marianna Turkey shoot. After this battle, the IJN never was able to recover its control of the skies. And it was the Japanese that taught the Americans the importance of air power in naval warfare.”
Nice little potted history, but the reason the war turned against Japan was that the US built 24 large aircraft carriers and dozens of smaller ones. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/us-navys-essex-class-aircraft-carrier-best-ever-sail-52527
Amazingly, the people who have been predicting imminent Russian victory since Feb. 2022 are still predicting imminent Russian victory.
“NOTE: It is of interest that Ukrainian’s General Zaluzhny looks to be missing lately from the war effort.”
Why is this absurd lie still being repeated?
Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 24 2023 13:24 utc | 13
In his first speech addressing the crisis of Wagner’s armed rebellion on Saturday morning, Russian President Vladimir Putin has vowed to crush what he called Yevgeny Prigozhin’s “betrayal”. Southern governors, for example Alexander Gusev who oversees the city of Voronezh, has since confirmed armed clashes between regular military forces and Wagner fighters within Russian territory. He described necessary “combat measures” as part of counter-terror operations in the southern city.
Posted by: ramrod report | Jun 24 2023 13:41 utc | 14
Bemildred | Jun 24 2023 12:59 utc | 9
————–
One thing is certain. There won’t be any more mercenary armies in Russia!
Posted by: ostro | Jun 24 2023 13:02 utc | 11
I have been wondering for some time why Prigozhin was allowed such attention and freedom to mouth off, now it begins to look like giving him enough room to see what he is made of. And his mouthing off has been useful while Bakmut was being reduced.
Since he is being dealt with now, we may see some new directions in the war going forward.
Interesting times …
Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 24 2023 13:52 utc | 15
Posted by: young | Jun 24 2023 9:37 utc | 1
That post is so bizarre !
I fail to see what battles on the ocean have to do with land warfare………I really see no context where there is any overlap.
War in Europe can go on for decades – there is a lot of territory and many countries – with US prepared to feed National Guard into Ukraine Russia will be occupied for a long time liquidating them………if Poland or Baltics wish to join in – likewise
Maybe US can get Germany involved ?
It all takes time.
England fought 100 Years War against France – there was a 30 Years War until 1648 which defined the very principles the US is trying to overthrow in Treaty of Westphalia
There was an 80 Years war – there was a Seven Years War which ended up affecting Canada and India and is known as “The First World War” because of the war in Silesia spreading onto several continents and forming the British Empire
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 24 2023 13:56 utc | 16
One more theory I have not heard is this is all a show so both sides NATO and Russia end the war and dont lose face completely. All this could be preplanned by both Russian and West.
NATO saves face as Russia might be forced to retreat and give up some territories in Donbas and agree to ceasefire N Korea style. Russia saves face as this is the only way out of the war which might be weighing heavy on them after 1 year.
Sure Russia loses face in the short term because of this internal turmoil but it would most likely be quickly forgotten.
Posted by: Comandante | Jun 24 2023 14:13 utc | 17
Moron of Alabama is very premature in claiming that the Ukrainian counter-offensive has failed, given that it has barely even begun and also because already Ukraine has taken back a decent amount of its territory. The destruction of so much of Russia’s logistics in southern Ukraine especially during this early phase of the Ukrainian counter-offensive cannot creditably be labelled as a “failure” on Ukraine’s part. It would be accurate, however, to classify Russia’s inability to protect its southern Ukraine logistics centers from destruction as a “failure” on Russia’s part. One needs to view the entire situation in Ukraine in a rational, unbiased manner. Allowing any pro-Russia or pro-Ukraine biases to influence one’s analysis will lead one to make such ridiculous claims as the ones we saw from many pro-Russia bloggers in the first few days of the war in Ukraine who loudly proclaimed “Russia will win the war in 7 days!”
Posted by: Great Master | Jun 24 2023 15:30 utc | 18
Just a FYI:
The Turcopolier website has been down for several days, now. The webmasters of that site want to pretend as if it’s the result of malicious DOS attacks, but the more likely cause is that the Ukraine is losing badly and whazzizname…(the Polish-descended guy who likes boats, lives in Florida, and has been running the site as a virtual fiefdom on the coat-tails of Pat Lang)…just wants to escape the inevitable backlash that his stupid fantasies have been encouraging.
Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Jun 24 2023 16:50 utc | 19
Comic relief
Tanks in Russia: https://t.me/polliusenko058/11844
Tanks in Ukraine: https://t.me/chub_detection/11545
Posted by: Arioch | Jun 24 2023 17:07 utc | 20
Despite distractions elsewhere, the SMO continues to rumble on; the latest ‘clobber list’ from the Russian Defence Ministry: https://eng.mil.ru/en/special_operation/news/more.htm?id=12471298@egNews
The Russian Aerospace Forces launched a long-range precision-guided group attack on radio engineering reconnaissance centres and aviation equipment of the AFU close to Kanatovo airfield (Kirovograd region) and Dnepr airfield.
All the assigned targets have been neutralised. The goal of the attack has been reached.
In addition, on 23 June, a storage of Storm Shadow cruise missiles has been destroyed at a Ukrainian airbase close to Starokonstantinov (Khmelnitsky region), in response to a strike on a road bridge across the Chongar Strait.
The AFU continued unsuccessful attempts at offensive actions in South Donetsk, Zaporozhye, Donetsk and Krasny Liman directions.
In South Donetsk direction, close to Vremevka salient, as a result of the competent and selfless actions by the units of the Vostok Group of Forces, as well as artillery and heavy firing systems, three enemy attacks have been successfully repelled near Makarovka, Novosyolka (Donetsk People’s Republic) and Levadnoye (Zaporozhye region).
As a result of the shelling of advancing AFU reserves, two tanks and six enemy armoured fighting vehicles have been destroyed near Novopol in (Donetsk People’s Republic) and Novovorovka in (Zaporozhye region).
In Zaporozhye direction, Russian troops repulsed an attack by the units of the 47th AFU Mechanised Brigade close to Yablokovo (Zaporozhye region).
Army Aviation strikes have neutralised enemy manpower and hardware concentration areas near Preobrazhenka and Novodanilovka (Zaporozhye region).
One ordnance depot of the 65th Mechanised Brigade of the AFU has been destroyed near Malye Shcherbaki (Zaporozhye region).
The enemy losses were over 170 Ukrainian servicemen, three tanks, three infantry fighting vehicles, 12 armoured fighting vehicles and three motor vehicles.
Also destroyed: one Grad MLRS combat vehicle, one French-manufactured Cezar self-propelled artillery system, one US-manufactured M777 artillery system, two Msta-B howitzers and one D-20 howitzer.
In Donetsk direction, as a result of the active actions of the units of the Yug Group of Forces, nine enemy attacks have been repelled close to Vesyoloye, Artyomovsk, Avdeevka, Pervomayskoye and Maryinka (Donetsk People’s Republic).
The enemy losses were over 245 Ukrainian servicemen, one infantry fighting vehicle, seven pickup trucks, and D-20 and D-30 howitzers.
In Bakhmut tactical direction, aviation and artillery have neutralised manpower and military hardware of the 35th and 36th brigades of the AFU Marine Brigades.
Two ammunition depots of the 45th Artillery Brigade and the 109th Territorial Defence Brigade of the AFU have been destroyed close to Seversk and Sukhaya Balka (Donetsk People’s Republic).
In Krasny Liman direction, the units of the Tsentr Group of Forces have repulsed four AFU attacks close to Serebryansky forestry.
The units of the 63rd and 66th mechanized brigades of the AFU have been hit by air strikes near Nevskoye (Lugansk People’s Republic) and Torskoye (Donetsk People’s Republic).
The activities of three Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups have been disrupted close to Yampolovka, Torskoye (Donetsk People’s Republic) and Chervonaya Dibrova (Lugansk People’s Republic).
The enemy losses were over 100 Ukrainian servicemen, one infantry fighting vehicle, two armoured fighting vehicles, three pickup trucks, one Akatsiya self-propelled artillery system and one D-30 howitzer.
In Kupyansk direction, the attacks, launched by Operational-Tactical and Army aviation, as well as artillery of the Zapad Group of Forces, have resulted in the neutralisation of the enemy manpower and hardware close to Novomlynsk, Timkovka (Kharkov region), and Stelmakhovka (Lugansk People’s Republic).
Three Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups have been neutralised close to Yagodnoye and Berestovoye (Kharkov region).
The enemy losses were up to 30 Ukrainian servicemen, three motor vehicles and one D-20 howitzer.
In Kherson direction, the enemy losses were up to 45 Ukrainian servicemen, two motor vehicles, one Grad MLRS vehicle, two Akatsiya self-propelled artillery systems and two Gvozdika self-propelled howitzers.
Operational-Tactical and Army aviation, Missile Troops and Artillery of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation have neutralised 92 AFU artillery units at their firing positions, manpower and hardware in 124 areas.
Two storages of fuel for AFU hardware has been destroyed near Dnepropetrovsk.
Air defence facilities have intercepted 24 unmanned aerial vehicles close to Zaitsevo, Artyomovsk, Novobakhmutovka, Volodino, Yakovlevka, Soledar, Belogorovka (Donetsk People’s Republic), Kremennaya (Lugansk People’s Republic), Ulyanovka (Kherson region), Shevchenkovo and Mirnoye (Zaporozhye region).
In total, 444 airplanes, 240 helicopters, 4,775 unmanned aerial vehicles, 426 air defence missile systems, 10,319 tanks and other armoured fighting vehicles, 1,131 fighting vehicles equipped with MLRS, 5,218 field artillery cannons and mortars, as well as 11,152 special military motor vehicles have been destroyed during the special military operation.
I note the report specifically highlights the destruction of a stash of Storm Shadows as being a direct response to the AFU attack on the Chongar bridge.
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 24 2023 17:33 utc | 21
Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Jun 24 2023 16:50 utc | 19
PA – don’t think so. TTG did a quite superb job running the site after Colonel Lang’s unexpected death. As with Colonel Lang himself, he had his own take but very generously allowed others who did not share that take to contribute.
This is what comes up when one attempts to access the site:-
Parse error: syntax error, unexpected ‘?’ in /home/turcopol/public_html/wp-content/plugins/really-simple-ssl/functions.php on line 33
No idea what it means!
I do recollect, however, that the site went down before. It’s foreign hosted so maybe the difficulty lies there.
Many thanks to “b” and his commenters for the links provided recently. Also to “b” himself. No idea how he manages to assemble and collate all the information but am extremely grateful that he does.
In the middle of it all I see no reason to change my own personal opinion that I formed soon after 21st February last year. The final failure of Minsk 2 sealed the fate of Ukraine and underlined and accelerated the already serious decline of Europe.
Still a lot of details one would like to see sorted out!
Posted by: English Outsider | Jun 24 2023 17:51 utc | 22
Parse error: syntax error, unexpected ‘?’ in /home/turcopol/public_html/wp-content/plugins/really-simple-ssl/functions.php on line 33
Posted by: English Outsider | Jun 24 2023 17:51 utc | 22
It appears to be a coding error in the software that runs the site. I’m not saying that is what it is, but that is what it looks like. A bug.
Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 24 2023 17:55 utc | 23
All those ‘western’ a-holes, MSM, bloody politicos, etc who were waiting for a civil war within Russia must be very hurt. It is always good to have a good friend, who would stand with you at the time of emergency, President of Belarus Aleksander Lukashenka.
Posted by: ostro | Jun 24 2023 18:08 utc | 24
let’s trytokeep the spirit of Turcopolier alive. We need a central email address to keep in touch.
Posted by: walrus | Jun 24 2023 18:08 utc | 25
The whole episode was too easy to decipher.
The Natostan and the Nazis have been had! Troop movements have been announced in various zones by the Ukropas military leadership, and even labeled as ‘Offensive’ eg Deputy head of defence and that will ensure that more ‘sacrificial meat’ is brought in for processing by the Russians.
When your opponent becomes aware of your destructive tactics, change them to the most weird and amazing luring one, that’s believable, eg the ‘March for Justice’ by Prigoh & the ochestra.
This was well conducted!
Reminds me of ‘Ripley’s Believe It or Not’ on tv
Just love how G7, Eurostan, Natostan and the messed up MSM all got sooo confuse.
Now that what I call music!
Posted by: RedStory | Jun 24 2023 18:43 utc | 26
Unclear atm if this is more the same sort of recent attempts or start of concerted effort there, neither would surprise me.
Up to a platoon of the Ukrainian forces has landed in the vicinity of the Antonovsky bridge on the left bank of the Dnepr river, near the Alyoshki settlement. No armour/heavy equipment, infantry only. They are attempting to seize a position. Russian Army responding, fighting in progress.
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/52171
Posted by: knighthawk | Jun 24 2023 18:44 utc | 27
Paul, you do realize that we’re in the 21st century. The destruction of modern weapons is infinitely larger than 19th and even 20th century. Therefore, This war will not last more than 2 years.
Posted by: Crazyczar | Jun 24 2023 18:47 utc | 28
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 24 2023 17:33 utc | 21
I note the report specifically highlights the destruction of a stash of Storm Shadows as being a direct response to the AFU attack on the Chongar bridge.
I suspect somebody crossed a “red line” somewhere …
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 24 2023 18:50 utc | 29
Posted by: knighthawk | Jun 24 2023 18:44 utc | 27
They came on in the same old way and we killed them in the same old way.
Posted by: Milites | Jun 24 2023 19:02 utc | 30
If may be that Russia has formed in northeast and north central 404 a hammer to drop on the anvil she formed in southeast and south central 404. It may be that the hammer is in early stages of dropping. That’s the sense I get from collating and correlating little data points into strategic depth situational awareness, strategic running estimate. YMMV.
Posted by: The Rev. David R. Gr | Jun 24 2023 19:09 utc | 31
I suspect somebody crossed a “red line” somewhere …
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 24 2023 18:50 utc | 29
No doubt. I just found it slightly unusual that the ‘clobber list’ called it out specifically. Usually the statements are dry and terse, basically boiling down to “We launched missiles at stuff we wanted to blow up and we successfully blew up the stuff.”…
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 24 2023 19:09 utc | 32
Posted by: The Rev. David R. Gr | Jun 24 2023 19:09 utc | 31
Somethings building for sure, and if the head meets the face look out for a shower of VDV sparks heading for the Dnieper bridges.
Posted by: Milites | Jun 24 2023 19:30 utc | 33
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 24 2023 19:09 utc | 32
To alter the famous axiom, the definition of missile defence is a glide bomb heading for their storage shelter.
Posted by: Milites | Jun 24 2023 19:33 utc | 34
Wagner freedom fighters headline in western msm lasted a few hours. As soon as agreement made they became terrorists again
Posted by: hankster | Jun 24 2023 19:41 utc | 35
Epic Plot Twist possibility (insert smile emoji):
“Prigozhin was approached by the US to do a coup in Russia for billions of dollars. He tells Putin about it, Putin agrees. They keep the money.” – @alifarhat79
Posted by: Irish | Jun 24 2023 20:08 utc | 36
@knighthawk | Jun 24 2023 18:44 utc | 27
More kamikaze. What can 20-30 people do? A selfie then run back. Put a few mines, throw a grenade, then run back?
Posted by: rk | Jun 24 2023 20:15 utc | 37
Irish @36
I love that story !
Even better if Putin tells the world about it and says the billions have gone into consolidated revenue !
Posted by: Steve from Oz | Jun 24 2023 20:26 utc | 38
West of England Andy | Jun 24 2023 19:09 utc | 32
Wait till they blow up a Challenger tank. You may see an exclamation mark.
Posted by: dh | Jun 24 2023 20:35 utc | 39
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 24 2023 17:33 utc | 21
If they knew the SS missiles were there, why wait until this bridge is blasted before destroying it?
My guess is that it is a suspected storage site. They aren’t 100% certain but they had their suspicions, so they hit it just in case.
That’s all I can guess from way the hell over here though.
Posted by: Domerts | Jun 24 2023 21:28 utc | 40
Moron of Alabama is very premature in claiming that the Ukrainian counter-offensive has failed…
Posted by: Great Master | Jun 24 2023 15:30 utc | 18
So what you are saying, taking quote from Kathy Neuman, oh wise one, is the Ukrainian offensive hasn’t failed yet..
Posted by: RiNS | Jun 24 2023 21:43 utc | 41
I find it strange this clobber list used “over 100” once, as opposed to the less optimistic “up to x” that it always uses for AFU casualties.
Posted by: UWDude | Jun 24 2023 21:44 utc | 42
I find it strange this clobber list used “over 100” once, as opposed to the less optimistic “up to x” that it always uses for AFU casualties.
Posted by: UWDude | Jun 24 2023 21:44 utc | 42
I’ve been following the reports on a daily basis and TBH I can see no discernible pattern around which phrase is used. “Up to” and “over” seem to occur at more or less the same rate. I’ve put it down to quirks in the translation, trying to convert Russian language inflections to English language inflections. I could well be wrong, of course!
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 24 2023 22:03 utc | 43
Posted by: Great Masterbator | Jun 24 2023 15:30 utc | 18
Moron of Alabama is very premature in claiming that the Ukrainian counter-offensive has failed…
We’ve been informed by your masters that it’s premature to claim the counter offensive has even begun …
Are you telling us in no uncertain terms and on the highest authority that it has?
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 24 2023 22:06 utc | 44
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 24 2023 22:07 utc | 45
Right, can we get back to the war now?
Or, in your case, endless hysterical bitching about how incompetent Putin is.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 24 2023 22:10 utc | 46
Wait till they blow up a Challenger tank. You may see an exclamation mark.
Posted by: dh | Jun 24 2023 20:35 utc | 39
Heh, some time ago I showed a ‘clobber list’ to someone I thought might be receptive to a non-MSM/social media perspective. Her response: “There aren’t any emojis, how can it be true?”…
.. I made my excuses and left…
~~~
If they knew the SS missiles were there, why wait until this bridge is blasted before destroying it?
Posted by: Domerts | Jun 24 2023 21:28 utc | 40
Dunno, I have no insight into the whats, whys and hows of Russia’s approach. My best uneducated guess is that of “In a long campaign, never fire all your bullets at once”.
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 24 2023 22:20 utc | 48
Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Jun 24 2023 16:50 utc | 19
The Turcopolier website (turcopolier.com) went down first thing Monday, June 5. My speculation is that Col. Lang’s estate (and the family) want to make sure that they realize maximum value from the url. Although TTG ran the site pro bono after Col. Lang’s death, the lawyers may have determined that the estate’s claims to the Col.’s intellectual property could be leaking away. So they shut the blog down. Just my speculation.
Posted by: drifter | Jun 24 2023 22:21 utc | 49
@ Arch Bungle | Jun 24 2023 22:10 utc | 46
You just won the thread, I think, although you didn’t mention his increasingly baroque anti-Martyanov epithets.
Posted by: malenkov | Jun 24 2023 22:21 utc | 50
I’m still amused by the hot dog guy ploy..he was driving to Moscow! Western media were really drawn in eh. I see they used the event to unmask a whole network of GUR assets. Russians are masters at getting in the head of their opponent. Its all that fucking chess. One for the history books.
18. Haha ok there my pseudointellectual friend, tell me more about the great Ukrainian counteroffensive and its complete, utter, absolute NON failure. I love fairy tales.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 24 2023 22:21 utc | 51
let’s try to keep the spirit of Turcopolier alive. We need a central email address to keep in touch.
Posted by: walrus | Jun 24 2023 18:08 utc | 25
All for it. I will just note that in the SST blog’s heyday, Col. Lang put in a LOT of work. Even running wargames. In the meantime we have MoA which … is great, although its comments section is a bit of a cross between Fleet street, Hyde park and the mental ward.
Posted by: drifter | Jun 24 2023 22:37 utc | 52
@Arch Bungle and malenkov
I’m not the one blathering on and on about the Kerensky, er, Prigozhin coup.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 24 2023 22:43 utc | 53
Also, since you brought up Martyanov, check his last few posts on Prigozhin. Brief summary:
1. Prigozhin is a criminal.
…
2. Prigozhin is a traitor.
…
3. Prigozhin will not be spared.
…
[Case dropped against Prigozhin, he’s leaving to Belarus]
Martyanov: no mention of that at all.
Remember, it was you who brought up Martyanov in this thread. Otherwise I wouldn’t have thought him worth mentioning at all.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 24 2023 22:49 utc | 54
@ “Bill” Purkayastha
Well, Prigozhin *is* a criminal and a traitor; surely you don’t debate that. So Martyanov already scores 2 out of 3.
As for why Putin let him go, I can imagine two possibilities:
1. Doing so effects a quick resolution without mass bloodshed and with refocused intensity on the SMO against 404. Not a bad thing, actually.
2. Prigozhin could still fall victim to some oh-so-tragic accident.
I’d be delighted with 2. but can live with 1.
Posted by: malenkov | Jun 24 2023 22:58 utc | 55
Prigozhin has been treated with the mercy with which Putin treated Azov. Very noble indeed, but how fares the war effort?
Posted by: Jupiter | Jun 24 2023 23:04 utc | 56
“Prigozhin has been treated with the mercy with which Putin treated Azov. Very noble indeed, but how fares the war effort?
Posted by: Jupiter | Jun 24 2023 23:04 utc | 56”
You haven’t been paying attention?…
Posted by: malenkov | Jun 24 2023 23:07 utc | 57
I note the report specifically highlights the destruction of a stash of Storm Shadows as being a direct response to the AFU attack on the Chongar bridge.
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 24 2023 17:33 utc | 21
‐———
I’m always puzzled by people’s comments and interpretations of Russia’s many hits. They say things like “in response to”, “as revenge for”, “as retaliation”.
Firstly, a competent military does not do things as revenge. They have short and long term plans, intel, and a consistent mission to destroy all they can whenever they can. Yes, Putin and all other leaders TALK ABOUT revenge, but firstly that is political, public PR. Secondly, military responses come from new info emerging during or after an attack on them which ALLOWS a subsequent attack that LOOKS LIKE revenge.
Each time Ukraine attacks, whether their weapon hits, gets shot down, or misses, their missiles leave tracking info back to their launch source and probably its nearby ammo storage which then facilitates a hit by Russia. Same for aircraft — they may take off unseen, pop up in the battle front, but then get tracked home to landing … then get hit. It’s not “retaliation”, but just their job.
For “revenge”, why would Russia wait till it gets hit before striking. If they have the target intel, they would strike BEFORE.
Neither is Russia hitting command centres after a terrorism strike “revenge”. It’s just the everyday necessary work of the SMO. If they know about a high level meeting and its location, they’ll hit it ANY DAY of the week! (Except for Zelly Boy).
Projecting tit for tat upon the Russian military is a very glib perspective. But funnily, it’s the way Kiev likes to do war, and one of the reasons why so many of its attacks are pointless, fruitless. It stems grom the difference in maturity between Putin and Zelensky … adults vs children!
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jun 24 2023 23:17 utc | 58
“Heh, some time ago I showed a ‘clobber list’ to someone I thought might be receptive to a non-MSM/social media perspective. Her response: “There aren’t any emojis, how can it be true?”…
West of England Andy | Jun 24 2023 19:09 utc | 48
That’s Russians for you. Dour, glum, never smile, no sense of humour.
Posted by: dh | Jun 24 2023 23:26 utc | 59
Posted by: malenkov | Jun 24 2023 22:21 utc | 50
Didn’t mention his increasingly baroque anti-Martyanov epithets.
Oh there’ll be endless opportunity for that.
In any case, that’s the end of me for tonight!
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 25 2023 0:09 utc | 60
Posted by: walrus | Jun 24 2023 18:08 utc | 25
Great idea. But a decision had been made to keep it on line so I think, as “Bemildred” reckons is possible, that it’s a bug that’ll get dealt with.
Interesting day. The longing in Europe on so many sides – press, BBC and many blogs – that the SMO would get derailed somehow was painfully apparent.
Posted by: English Outsider | Jun 25 2023 0:19 utc | 61
zinjanthropus @ 13
Nice little potted history, but the reason the war turned against Japan was that the US built 24 large aircraft carriers and dozens of smaller ones. https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/us-navys-essex-class-aircraft-carrier-best-ever-sail-52527.
RESPONSE: You are correct about a very significant aspect of the USA’s victory over the Japanese during WWII was the USA’s building 24 large aircraft carriers and dozens of smaller ones.
Earlier in the post @ 1, I wrote “The side that has better logistics is the one that most often wins.” More aircraft carriers, more well trained pilots, better planes, torpedoes that finally worked, more subs, atomic bombs, and many other aspects of the WWII effort insured that the USA had the better logistics.
As for General Zaluzny, he has been pretty much absent since the start of the June 4th Ukrainian offensive. If he is still around, his presence is pretty much missed by his troops.
PERSONAL NOTE: My father served in the Philippines during WWII on a mine sweeping ship. My first father-in-law was captured in the Philippines on Bataan by the Japanese at the beginning of the war. He was a POW until the end of the war when the Russians liberated his POW camp in Manchuria. After being liberated by the Russians, the American prisoners culled out the worse of the Japanese POW’s camps guards. The Russians promptly shot them.
Posted by: young | Jun 25 2023 0:26 utc | 62
@Arch Bungle 60
These days Martyanov is hardly worth even mocking, which is why I rarely mention him.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 25 2023 0:27 utc | 63
Simplicius seems to think the wheels are coming off the Special Military Operation for real this time, i.e. this is not yet another case of boy crying wolf. The Chinese are probably making preparations for large scale political and economic destabilizations subsequent to an ever more likely regime change in Russia. This is precisely the sort of devastating embarrassment that was supposed to happen to Zelensky at the beginning of the Special Operation, but never materialized. This Roman empire-style dog eat dog military politics is the last thing Russia, or any so called “great power”, can afford when it’s looking down the barrel of a nuclear armed NATO. Even if Russia manages to retain and digest Crimea and Donetsk the destabilizations promise to become endemic under the combined unsustainability of soft authoritarianism at home (not even the facade of democracy) and being declared enemy number one by nearly the totality of the Western financial system + Japan.
Posted by: Jupiter | Jun 25 2023 0:46 utc | 64
A LOT OF PEOPLE, here and elsewhere, are misusing the term maskirovska. It technically relates to military deception, NOT political psyops. It is a battlefield deception to wrong-foot the enemy, eg the Bakhmut meat grinder, and the initial Kiev diversion.
Yes, today we saw much deception involving a PMC and the RF military, but it was not maskirovka in the sense of fooling the AFU on the battlefield. And yes, it can be argued that it was a bit of general wartime maskirovka by the Kremlin to fool Kiev and the West into making the RF and Putin LOOK WEAK. But the outcome (obviously intended) was the very opposite. Ha ha, to them. But it was not military maskirovka from the Chiefs of Staff … except upon the global observers, talking classes, and any traitors within Russia.
Yes, theatre, psyop, trickery, subterfuge, lying, misinformation, diversion, PR, it was. But it was not classic Russian maskirovka. Watch out, or next we’ll see the word entering the public Western lexicon such that “She used maskirovka to dump me and take up with my best mate”. Aaaagh, lexical ignorance knows no bounds.
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jun 25 2023 0:49 utc | 65
You remember how Belgorod was supposedly taken by Russian rebels according to western media? Maybe Prigozhin was too much a good thing in this scenario. It is a matter of debate who outwitted whom.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 25 2023 0:54 utc | 66
Paul Greenwood @ 16
That post is so bizarre !
I fail to see what battles on the ocean have to do with land warfare………I really see no context where there is any overlap.
War in Europe can go on for decades – there is a lot of territory and many countries – with US prepared to feed National Guard into Ukraine Russia will be occupied for a long time liquidating them………if Poland or Baltics wish to join in – likewise
RESPONSE: Battles are battles, war is war. Many similar patterns occur whether the battle is on land or on sea. In modern warfare, after one side is victorious over their enemy in the air, the victor is able to advance very soon thereafter if he has the logistics in place. Controlling the air signficantly reduces losses on the ground. The recent Ukrainian offensive is yet another good example of how important controlling the air is.
Controlling the air is about taking out enemy aircraft (planes, helicopters, drones), taking out enemy missiles, taking out the enemy air defense systems, having substantial more artillery and mortar fire power, having at least equal accuracy in destroying targets from the air, having substantial more missile fire power, having more planes, helicopters, and drones in the fight with more fire power, having more air defense systems, having better overall equipment, being able to respond quicker from the air to neutralize enemy targets, and finally being able to coordinate all of the above to quickly take out the enemy at the zero line and beyond the enemy’s logistic hubs feeding their zero line.
Posted by: young | Jun 25 2023 0:55 utc | 67
You have noticed that Prigozhin still continues to be something of a darling in the west? He is reported to have turned back “to avoid bloodshed”.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 25 2023 0:59 utc | 68
Those who portray this as a gigantic humiliation for Putin fail to see who is relly being humiliated in Ukraine.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 25 2023 1:06 utc | 69
Irish @ 36
Epic Plot Twist possibility (insert smile emoji):
“Prigozhin was approached by the US to do a coup in Russia for billions of dollars. He tells Putin about it, Putin agrees. They keep the money.” – @alifarhat79
RESPONSE: Thanks for the humor! I have to chuckle on this one.
For sure, truth is the first casualty of war.
Posted by: young | Jun 25 2023 1:06 utc | 70
drifter # 22:37 utc | 52
In the meantime we have MoA which … is great, although its comments section is a bit of a cross between Fleet street, Hyde park and the mental ward.
Thank you for the affirmation of the multicultural foundations of MoA.
Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 25 2023 1:15 utc | 71
Well, that was about like pulling teeth out of a cat’s ass. I believe the popularity of the subjects of discussion have been reflected in the comment count.
With the dust settling I think my favoured possibility from yesterday (that it was theatrics to boost negotiating power) is correct. The one factor that really made me unsure was the shootdowns of the aircraft. Some of the other factors, the attack on the Wagner camp, the explosion of the vehicle on the bridge, the failed attempt to shootdown one helicopter, could have been staged, but if actual lives had been lost it made me think there had to be some other agenda in play. However, the rogue commanders idea clarifies that. If the theatrics were arranged at higher levels (on both sides) and mid level commanders were left unaware, it is quite likely someone may have erupted in incandescent rage at the ‘betrayal’. Tactically, an air attack like that is extremely dangerous but the emotional response, even from the pilots would be understandable.
However, I would very much doubt the putsch attempt idea. As I said yesterday, if Prigozhin is not 100% trusted by Putin and his inner circle, the idea that the FSB and GRU do not have assets in place that could deal with any truly unexpected betrayal is slim to non-existent and Prigozhin is smart enough to know a true rebellion (without far more significant support at the highest levels in several organisations) would be a death sentence. Likely instant but certainly over the very short term.
Either Putin has been dealing with a long-suffering thorn in his side at the MOD that this gives him justification to remove it, or there was an internal division between Russian intelligence + some MOD on one side (with Prigozhin as their asset) and a smaller faction of MOD on the other. It’s possible they acted without direct authorisation from Putin (as often seems to happen) thinking for themselves that “This is probably what the big man wants to happen”.
The big issue was the compartmentalisation involved left so many out of the loop (possibly including Putin himself, hence a display of legitimate anger that his underlings were taking too much initiative/risk in attempting to ‘help’ him) and this led to the unilateral attacks on Wagner and the ad hoc public resistance.
If there had been no violence yesterday, the power plays and would be a little more readable but I think the unprecedented chaos explains this.
Regarding Putin’s perceived weakness, I think those at higher levels know far more about the true nature of what was happening and only their opinions matter. The public, the West, etc….their opinions have never mattered very much and over the coming days either the real reason for the events, or (far more likely) the narrative the Kremlin wants will be filtered down to the public, troops, etc. Likely this will be: the deaths blamed on rogue commanders, Putin being promoted as showing restraint against using violence against Russians, Prigozhin as interested only in removing bad apples at the MOD, justification for stronger control of PMCs (possibly more so targeted toward Patriot than it ever was Wagner), the impact on Putin will almost certainly fade as soon as the next dramatic event from the broader war arises.
@Dolphin regarding the use of ‘Maskirovka’. Today, in the aftermath, we can say it was not but yesterday the potential was very much there. The sudden troops movements surrounding the chaos may have been used to cover the buildup to an attack in a specific area, or the disinformation element (which exists outside of but overlaps with maskirovka) may have been a lure for a predicted Ukrainian attack. Today we can say, “This seems to have been purely internal power plays” but anyone who said the same yesterday with utter conviction has limited scope of vision.
Posted by: Brannagyn | Jun 25 2023 1:22 utc | 73
“You have noticed that Prigozhin still continues to be something of a darling in the west? He is reported to have turned back “to avoid bloodshed”.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 25 2023 0:59 utc | 68
Were you seriously expecting Putin to get some credit? Come on.
Posted by: dh | Jun 25 2023 1:25 utc | 74
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 25 2023 0:27 utc | 63
Martyanov is one of the few commentators who provide a mathematical insight into battlefield dynamics in a digestible form.
His integration of that perspective into the context of the conflict in Ukraine has greatly contributed to understanding it.
All the rest of his stuff is easy to filter out as the grumblings of a cranky old bear.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 25 2023 1:35 utc | 75
Were you seriously expecting Putin to get some credit? Come on.
Posted by: dh | Jun 25 2023 1:25 utc | 74
LOL, well Putin was the TIME person of the year once upon a time. So was Zelezhny. And Hitler.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 25 2023 1:44 utc | 76
I suspect that the ‘coup’ affair has severely weakened Putin’s power base, despite many assurances by fan boys to the contrary. Perhaps his better days are behind him!
His military leaders ran away from Rostov like frightened schoolgirls. The image of the fierce Russian bear seems to have morphed into a meak poodle. Putin appears to not have sufficient testicular fortitude for a rough war – too many red lines have been crossed. The collective West must have seen this internal weakness and may capitalise on this.
It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in Ukraine.
Perhaps it would be best for Russia to seek a mutually-acceptable peace deal. I doubt they have the stomach to go much further.
Posted by: dnomsed | Jun 25 2023 1:48 utc | 77
Posted by: Brannagyn | Jun 25 2023 1:22 utc | 73
Rather good luck to have all those troops moved right by Belgorod as the Ukies decide to renew their attacks in the south rather than redeploy forces to defend Kharkov. The gods of war must have smiled on the RF for them to have such great luck.
Posted by: badjoke | Jun 25 2023 1:49 utc | 78
I won’t know what to think about all this hysteria about Wagner and ukarine until the ghost of keeeeeeeeeeeevv weighs in on the subject.
He’s real? Right? lie to me if you have to!!!
Posted by: T.D. | Jun 25 2023 1:54 utc | 79
Putin appears to not have sufficient testicular fortitude for a rough war – too many red lines have been crossed. The collective West must have seen this internal weakness and may capitalise on this.
Posted by: dnomsed | Jun 25 2023 1:48 utc | 77
Yes it would make sense this was somehow orchestrated by the west. How’s it going so far?
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 25 2023 1:56 utc | 80
I think Prigs decided to call the whole thing off after he started thinking about the last time someone marched on Moscow and got there.
Wait…
I think I see the problem…
Posted by: T.D. | Jun 25 2023 2:01 utc | 81
Putin lost his aura; can Xi lose it too? The PLA has already shown solo actions – spy balloons, Himalayan border disputes.
“How the Russian coup attempt may affect the Chinese view on a war with Taiwan”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10vK-fpRsEg
Posted by: Antonym | Jun 25 2023 2:17 utc | 82
“Rather good luck to have all those troops moved right by Belgorod as the Ukies decide to renew their attacks in the south rather than redeploy forces to defend Kharkov. The gods of war must have smiled on the RF for them to have such great luck.”
Posted by: badjoke | Jun 25 2023 1:49 utc | 78
Maybe Prigozhin has been offered a chance to redeem himself?
Posted by: dh | Jun 25 2023 2:18 utc | 83
Rather desperate attempts by Zelensky fan boys here. Speaking of which, who has lost his aura?
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 25 2023 2:22 utc | 84
In Chinese history at least 3 times an external war was used by “own” military leaders to overthrow the Emperor. Such opportunities occur sparse under totalitarian regimes.
What about a deep economic crisis?
Trust in ANY others in CCP-China is a rare commodity.
Posted by: Antonym | Jun 25 2023 2:43 utc | 85
Xi Jinping dismantled an existing PLA pay for promotion scheme; this upset a number of officers who spend a lot of money and didn’t get their “return on investment” suddenly. China is not Russia.
Posted by: Antonym | Jun 25 2023 2:53 utc | 86
While Prigozhin was getting his wings clipped today, another 2 battalions worth of AFU forces were terminated. Meanwhile in Washington, Joe fell asleep twice during briefings and bumped his head on his desk when he bent over to pick up a pencil he thought he had dropped. It was in his other hand.
Posted by: Fred777 | Jun 25 2023 2:58 utc | 87
These days Martyanov is hardly worth even mocking, which is why I rarely mention him.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 25 2023 0:27 utc | 63
Oh pleasssee. wouldnt be a post without your eternal butthurt he banned you from his blog. you mention it near daily here.
Posted by: hankster | Jun 25 2023 3:15 utc | 88
On Weibo (Chinese Twitter) #PutinaccusesPrigozhinoftreason got 1.5 billion views in one day! An all time record.
Not out of love for Russia, but out of unhappiness with the state of China today.
Posted by: Antonym | Jun 25 2023 3:18 utc | 89
Bloomberg Headline some hours ago about NATO ordering Kiev’s national guard into the front line :
Raw but Ready
Posted by: Exile | Jun 25 2023 3:49 utc | 90
Indulging a trawl thru the twitter of Russia “experts” link Michael McFaul-Michael Kofman-Rob Lee clump of chumps.
If there was western “contributions” to whatever the Prigozhin/ Putin panto was yesterday, they weren’t privy or party to it.
But.
Unsure of exactly the who why what, they reached for the default spin:
“Putin is weak”
“Putin showed weakness”
“weak-weak-weak”, tweet it.
I see the @bar is hosting a whole collective of new names, all on-message with “Putin is weak”.
I’m old enough to remember when “strongman” was the slander of choice when prefacing anything “Putin”.
Simplicius also reaches for the “Putin is weaken” by Prigozhin’s pantomime.
I disagree.
If Putin had responded with “overwhelming force” the chorus would be of his “brutality”, “wanton violence”, “crushing” … etc..
Many,many, many many if the Heads of State watching yesterday have known first-hand how these challenges to Rule of Law and vested State Authority have been conducted on their territory.
Belarus, Turkiye and Kazakhstan being just of the three more recent
In all these instances Russia has provided appropriate assistance to ensure the legally constituted government and elected leader retains governance.
I don’t think it’s hyperbole to say every national government was watching events yesterday.
Putin deco flicked the situation in record time. He thwarted bloodshed beyond the opening actions of Wagner.
Who knows Prigozhin’s long-term fate. But by taking refuge in Belarus, he’s been neutered for now, and denied any martyrdom, any glory.
As the entire world watched, Putin delivered a master class in Statehood and statesmanship.
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 25 2023 3:50 utc | 91
Posted by: Brannagyn | Jun 25 2023 1:22 utc | 73
Huh, what “troop movements”? A few police, terrorist squads, and non-busy soldiers were called to watch over the proceedings. There was no mobilisation, or potential need for any, just because a few Wagners visited Rostov.
Nope. All you’ve said is exactly what I outlined. You’ve colloquially extended the range of a word’s proper meaning into something more general. Maskirovka is an intentional, hidden or misdirected use of forces, or a *military ploy* to gain advantage in a battlefield over the enemy, NOT general wartime propaganda to just confuse the non-playing masses and MSM. Even in the first hours, it never looked like a battlefield strategy. The Ukrainian commanders at the front were never about to change their day’s tactics because of Prighozin’s ramblings. And neither were the RF fighters.
You think like you do because, as a spectator to the war, you think the shouting in the stands can affect the players on field. It doesn’t.
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jun 25 2023 4:09 utc | 92
as for Prig, the term “clown world” isn’t a feature on a certain channel for nothing. As for his life expectancy. he could live happily ever after in the same sense as Bud and Zal are alive.and kicking.
Posted by: Jonatha. W | Jun 25 2023 4:13 utc | 93
I do hope b follows through on his threat to cull ALL off-topic crap from this thread and reduce it to 20 or so comments, including this one!
Is “moving to Belarus” going to go down in history as the human equivalent of “We sent fluffy to live on a farm upstate”. That’s an Americanism, and maybe even mostly an East Coast American one, but I think its meaning is pretty clear. 😉
More charitably, the guy has witnessed more devastation than I can imagine, so if he gets cut more slack by Putin and Russia than I can readily grok, that’s cool by me.
Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 25 2023 4:33 utc | 95
[67]
You really cannot see any difference between Battle of Coral Sea and Operation Barbarossa or Bagration or Battle of The Bulge or Verdun of Ypres or Somme or El Alamein
Bizarre
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 25 2023 4:41 utc | 96
Putin knows Progozhin from their days in St Petersburg with the gangs and Progozhin according to Kadyrov is feeling outside the St Petersburg elite his daughter having been denied a prime plot of land
He feels he is owed and business deals have not gone well
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 25 2023 4:45 utc | 97
I cannot agree that Putin is weak or weakened. Instead, Putin has shown phenomenal political prowess to defuse this crisis within 24 hours. Russian regular army has many times of military resources required to crush the Wagners marching towards Moscow but directing Russian army to massacre 25+ of their countrymen inside Russia is a disastrous blow to the morale of Russian military and the populace at this critical juncture in the fight against the collective west.
Posted by: YIU | Jun 25 2023 4:47 utc | 98
Posted by: Antonym | Jun 25 2023 3:18 utc | 89
Your racial hatred of China is showing.
Are you part of this network?
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-india-55232432?fbclid=IwAR0_bs6bOn5LjkkM0LxlFmdzs2otYHrxZQZopUKNAMRt3IqsZ6PQ5R8vLlM
https://www.disinfo.eu/publications/indian-chronicles-deep-dive-into-a-15-year-operation-targeting-the-eu-and-un-to-serve-indian-interests/
Posted by: Surferket | Jun 25 2023 5:00 utc | 99
Posted by: Great Master | Jun 24 2023 15:30 utc | 18
Did you “finish” prematurely too?
Posted by: Antonym | Jun 25 2023 3:18 utc | 89
Hey B, I thought this was the Ukraine thread? What this xenophobic fool doing here?
As one of the mental inmates let loose @ the bar, the voices in my head are telling me loads of foreigners have been moving into 404.
Speaking of moving, quite a few private planes departed Moscow during the recent “March of Shame”
Posted by: Suresh | Jun 25 2023 5:33 utc | 100