Ukraine Open Thread 2023-144

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June 18, 2023

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Posted by on June 18, 2023 at 13:16 UTC | Permalink

Comments

Ron Unz has just published a follow up to his provocative WWII History – over at The Unz Review.

Posted by: Exile | Jun 19 2023 4:29 utc | 201

[192]
You need to view Scholz like most German politicians as an unprincipled opportunist
He was anti-NATO and close to DDR and Youth Leader SED Egon Krenz when in JuSo wing of SPD
He is personally corrupt
He exudes smug contempt and is unintelligent
He will not do anything that threatens his job and he has no hope of re-election

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 19 2023 4:41 utc | 202

“Nah, it’s far more simple. There’s no need for a NATO “
Eastern Europeans and Ukrainians disagree.

Posted by: Zinjanthropus | Jun 19 2023 4:45 utc | 203

@161 Phariah.
That seems reasonable except for Polands claims. Maybe they’d work with Hungary?
At any rate to victor go the spoils.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 19 2023 4:53 utc | 204

#103
Next year, interest on federal debt will exceed the Pentagon’s budget and cost around 25% of Federal income. That’s up from ~5% of income in 2019.
Currencies run on trust. If BRICS keeps getting traction and Washington gets a blow out loss in Ukraine, that is apt to upchuck the currency, and it won’t take until 2030 for it to happen. We could handle our current debt loads if we handled it responsibly, but that is a far from certain.

Posted by: Jmaas | Jun 19 2023 4:53 utc | 205

Posted by: james | Jun 19 2023 1:56 utc | 163
After just finishing half a bottle of Red, a thought crossed my mind that both bo(g)nus james and the Original james of MOA could very well be the same person….?
If so, well played.
Cheers!

Posted by: Suresh | Jun 19 2023 4:53 utc | 206

The methodology of English and now USUKIS colonialism is the ladder system used by Lawrence. You start with the lowest tribe in the pecking order, ‘ do you have any problems? ‘
‘ Yes , such and such a tribe .’
‘ Well maybe we could help you with that .’
Then , mysteriously the land controlled by the local underdog and the local overdog gets into the hands of the English colonials, who move
on to the next rung.
In Syria6, USUKIS offered help too the local Muslims, ‘ do you have any problems? ‘
Yes, our faith has been taken over by Sufi customs and nobody will give them up. ‘ well, maybe we could
help you with that.’ Same old story , the Sufis go, the Muslims are slaughtered and mysteriously the land ends up empty in the hands of USUKIS.
Ukraine is easily understood . It’s bog standard English colonial ladder system. Trump definitely believes that the US possesses ” beautiful ” mininukes that would defeat Russia while not polluting Europe.
This is the problem, USUKIS has every intention of mininuking the Russians in Ukraine after the death of the last Ukrainian. Both dicks of the two-dick snake intend to do the same.
Because that’s how they always do colonialism.
What Karaganov the political scientist is saying is that the clinically insane USUKIS is so confident of its ability to colonise Ukraine that it fails to register Russia’s nukes or hypersonic capabilities. Therefore they must be shocked out of their psychosis into the reality of Armaggeddon.
I agree with him. Thecthreat of
a hypersonic mininuke on the US mainland would break the USUKIS psychosis.
It needs doing before Trump gets in the White House or the Kennedy crazy.
I think some kind of demonstration strike will have to happen.

Posted by: Giyane | Jun 19 2023 5:18 utc | 207

“They certainly planned for AFU winning and smashing RU …”
It’s difficult to believe they were ever that optimistic. There are plenty of senior military figures in the UK, Germany, the US, and recently Poland, who have expressed doubts on the military front all along. I don’t believe, for instance, that such as General Vad would have spoken out had there not been a substantial body of informed opinion in Germany behind him.
Posted by: English Outsider | Jun 18 2023 22:37 utc | 126
It’s difficult, but not impossible. There are plenty of professional military figures everywhere who doubted Ukraine’s chances (McGregor and Ritter being the two main Empire embeds who loyally disagreed with the pro-Ukrainian hype). Even Zaluzhnyi was reportedly less than optimistic. But let’s recall that politics tend to dominate professional opinion when policy is created. The political establishment in the West believed otherwise, because they are politicians with an agenda. There is also a real debilitating tendency for propaganda to infect its propagators. I think there are enough people calling the shots who believed the shots they aimed at Russia would land. It is very possible that political blinders make people so dumb.

Posted by: Activist Potato | Jun 19 2023 5:31 utc | 208

Currencies run on trust. If BRICS keeps getting traction and Washington gets a blow out loss in Ukraine, that is apt to upchuck the currency, and it won’t take until 2030 for it to happen. We could handle our current debt loads if we handled it responsibly, but that is a far from certain.
Posted by: Jmaas | Jun 19 2023 4:53 utc | 210
—————————-
The trust is gone. However, unwinding supply chain relationships and moving billions in financial assets takes years. The BRICS are moving full speed to de-dollarize.
On the other hand, The Euros and Japanese are going to remain tied to the dollar system for far longer. Both the Euros and Japanese have enormous financial assets. They’ll act to slow down the impact of de-dollarization.
That’s why I guess the big impact of de-dollarization on Washington will happen only after 2030. TBD

Posted by: Exile | Jun 19 2023 5:47 utc | 209

https://youtu.be/RzTg7YXuy34
Sita sings the blues , learn the story of Ramayana to 1920s jazz vocals of Annette Hanshaw. awesome if you want a very unique and visual experience

Posted by: not james | Jun 19 2023 5:51 utc | 210

@james 197
referring to NATO statement (300,000 boots) now or back in March?
The March is of course correct. The other one appears to be a “mistake” or “disinfo”.

Posted by: AG | Jun 19 2023 5:59 utc | 211

Posted by: Exile | Jun 19 2023 5:47 utc | 217
Probably old tune by now, but the basis of BRICS currency (there will be one) will be backed by Chinese products, technology and research. It’s because China has basically everything, they can convert all commodities into products that everyone in the world needs and uses. Therefore “de-dollarization” begins from non-western world who may abandon trade with the west, and replace it with China, which will act as an intermediary, and source in itself for trade.
It doesn’t mean non-west can’t do trade with the west, the west will still do trade with the non-west and China, they just have to bear the consequence and meaning of what “printing money” really means. It means, inflation, like Zimbabwe or Weimar Germany.
De-dollarization will then begin within the west itself, starting from the current periphery of the west. And the first ones who drift away from USD will get the best deals in terms of currency exchange valuation and deals with BRICS world. Therefore it will happen as a cascade, non-west will join first BRICS and then fringes of the west, increasing the pain on the hegemony center.

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 19 2023 6:03 utc | 212

Who will China and Russia negotiate with when the music stops?
Asking for a friend……
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 19 2023 0:28 utc | 146
That is a very good question, as a self-identified mushroom I have no idea. And also, I think a new cold war is a very real possibility, where the ROW goes on about its business while the west festers away for a while longer. Last time the west festered away for a thousand years. And in that case there might be little negotiating done. ROW has no reason to negotiate while there is nobody agreement capable to talk to.
Nevertheless it would be a pleasant surprise for somebody to show up and take the job of doing actual government here, and negotiation with peers, and such. Keeping their word. Having a bit of honor and good faith. And should that happen, I think they would get a hearing.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 19 2023 6:06 utc | 213

Just listened to today’s Duran. They’ve concluded that there’s no two camps in Washington: 1) the neocon extremists who want to go full-scale escalation, possibly including tactical nukes, i.e., Michael Rubin, and 2) the Jake Sullivan camp that just wants to keep it going past the 2024 election – because Sullivan is basically a campaign manager, not much of anything else. And of course, Biden is in the latter camp (to the degree that he’s aware of anything going on.)
Sounds about right to me. Add in the alleged purge of people in the Pentagon and State Department of people who wanted to swing to China being replaced by extremists like Nuland, and things look like we’re in for wild ride over the next 18 months.
In the end, and this is something I have considered, it may be that all of Putin’s efforts to “manage the West’s reaction” will prove to be for nought. A lot of people here have argued that he might as well have gone for broke from the start, but of course there’s still the issue of minimizing Russian casualties and managing the reaction of the RoW. So I think he was right to do it this way. But it may also be true that in the end Russia may still be facing tactical nukes in Ukraine – or in Poland.
As I’ve said before, until there is regime change in the West, the risk of WWIII remains high. The Duran guys think Germany may break before the rest of Europe, given the rise of one of the parties there. If that happens, it could break the momentum for a NATO response. The Duran guys think the medium-sized NATO countries want the small NATO countries to get involved in Ukraine, but don’t want to do it themselves – and the small countries aren’t that keen, either – and only Germany is really on board with getting involved. So breaking Germany could be the key to ending it.
We’ll see.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 6:06 utc | 214

/no two/ s/b /now two/

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 6:07 utc | 215

Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 18 2023 17:00 utc | 43
https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/69814
How can I send this video to people who don’t use Telegram?

Posted by: Peter Williams | Jun 19 2023 6:14 utc | 216

“I agree with him. Thecthreat of
a hypersonic mininuke on the US mainland would break the USUKIS psychosis.
It needs doing before Trump gets in the White House or the Kennedy crazy.
I think some kind of demonstration strike will have to happen.
@Posted by: Giyane | Jun 19 2023 5:18 utc | 213”
Possible target list for some demonstration strikes: Washington DC; Langley, VA; and New York City.
A demonstration strike on Washington DC in particular would be the fastest way to “Drain the Swamp.”

Posted by: ak74 | Jun 19 2023 6:15 utc | 217

…they just have to bear the consequence and meaning of what “printing money” really means. It means, inflation, like Zimbabwe or Weimar Germany.
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 19 2023 6:03 utc | 220
My understanding is that hyperinflation a la weimar/ zim results from a country having debt denominated in a foreign currency, when that foreign country has the power to devalue the currency of the debtor. In other words it is a deliberate act of war. Ordinary money printing just results in double (or perhaps low triple) digit inflation.

Posted by: Tim | Jun 19 2023 6:20 utc | 218

Ordinary money printing just results in double (or perhaps low triple) digit inflation.
Posted by: Tim | Jun 19 2023 6:20 utc | 226
———————————————
Question: at a double or low triple digit inflation rate what interest rate would creditors need to get in order to be convinced to lend their money to the Federal Government ?
Answer: double or low triple digit interest rate
Conclusion: if 25% of federal income in 2024 goes to paying interest only; what percent is interest payments at double or low triple digit rates ?

Posted by: Exile | Jun 19 2023 6:29 utc | 219

@Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 6:06 utc | 222

As I’ve said before, until there is regime change in the West, the risk of WWIII remains high. The Duran guys think Germany may breakbefore the rest of Europe, given the rise of one of the parties there. If that happens, it could break the momentum for a NATO response. The Duran guys think the medium-sized NATO countries want the small NATO countries to get involved in Ukraine, but don’t want to do it themselves – and the small countries aren’t that keen, either – and only Germany is really on board with getting involved. So breaking Germany could be the key to ending it.

The real hard core are the Baltic States, Poland, Romania and the Czech Republic. Slovakia could have a new much less anti-Russian government in September, Hungary is already there and Bulgaria has a history of good relations with Russia.
Lets not forget that Germany is an occupied country with over 35,000 US military there, plus the BND (German equivalent of the CIA) was set up by the US. The AfD getting 20% in recent polls is hopeful, but the worry would be if they started getting much higher the dirty tricks would come out in Germany. Just like the CIA did in Italy for decades to keep out the communists. The next German election also is not until 2025. Italy is also still occupied by US troops. My number for Germany may be too low given the recent increases by the US of their presence in Europe.

Posted by: Roger | Jun 19 2023 6:32 utc | 220

Posted by: Tim | Jun 19 2023 6:20 utc | 226
My understanding is Zimbabwe inflation was caused by a lopsided economy – there simply wasn’t that much to be produced to sell in foreign markets to obtain foreign currency, which is stable against the currency which some foreign debt is held. On the other hand it was also caused by domestic money printing in conjunction with lopsided economy.
The inflation in Germany was caused by a combination of money printing, and the political decision to curtail the payment of war reparations by acts that curtail domestic production of items that were part of war reparations (shortages). This then caused value of domestic currency go down against foreign currency (as use for debt payment and import payments compete with each other).
What the West is doing currently – they are trying to pre-empt this inevitable dollar/euro de-basement through all this climate change BS, which effectively means one thing. The quality of life goes down, i.e. imports from the non-west go down Hey, who needs gasoline and diesel from Russia or Iran, tikka masala sauce from India, or Chinese batteries or solar panels, you just need to sit in a small cubicle and wait for the reaper man. Effectively imports go down which will somewhat compensate multipolarization – the western public will pay and reduce effects through crashing quality of life.
Someone more knowledgeable of economics could explain where all this “we’ll invest hundreds of billions western currency to rebuild Ukraine” is coming from? Is the idea to squeeze one more debt slave to kick the can a bit more down the road? With a small rump Ukraine, that won’t last long or actually turn against intended consequence.
Sorry O/T won’t discuss this further.

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 19 2023 6:40 utc | 221

Posted by: Roger | Jun 19 2023 6:32 utc | 228
“if they started getting much higher the dirty tricks would come out in Germany.”
Good point. The CIA could reactivate their Gladio forces which have probably never been shut down completely and would probably be directed against any political party that was wavering about NATO. The US probably also has economic weapons they could use, threaten sanctions if the government changes.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 6:47 utc | 222

‘Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 18 2023 17:00 utc | 43
https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/69814
How can I send this video to people who don’t use Telegram?’
Some of us don’t know anything about it. Is it a website or an app you have to download and install?

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jun 19 2023 7:06 utc | 223

⚔️🇺🇦The defeat of the enemy at Novodonetsky: more than 50 units of immobilized NATO equipment on the Vremevsky ledge
▪️Another very hot spot at the junction of the DPR and the Zaporizhia region is the settlement. Novodonetskoye, here the fighters of the OBTF “Cascade” and the marines repel attacks of large enemy forces on NATO equipment, including French wheeled tanks.
▪️On the footage after the battle, our fighters inspect the trophies. On the outskirts of Novodonetsk, there are more than 50 units of immobilized enemy equipment, mostly NATO.
🇫🇷 “Here is your tank. France is a force, you say?
▪️Nearby on the ground – a detailed instruction manual for the combat vehicle.
❗️Earlier, we published footage with a bunch of damaged and abandoned vehicles during the offensive of the Armed Forces of Ukraine on Novodonetskoye.
https://t.me/NovichokRossiya/33881

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 19 2023 7:24 utc | 224

Some rather unexpected opinions from white South Africans, who are generally rabidly foaming from the mouth anti-Russian, but the cartoon from RT at the start of the video is the best.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCzLgQjxm4E

Posted by: gT | Jun 19 2023 7:30 utc | 225

@ Exile @ 7
Trading Economics, for a variety of pretty reliable statistics – in Ukraine’s case, if any are inaccurate, they have only themselves to blame, since the State Statistics Service is the source.
https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/population
The default value displayed is 10 years; for a true appreciation of the horrific nosedive, select ‘Max’ from the taskbar at the top of the graph. This graph is not up-to-the-minute as the compilation is as of 2022 and figures beyond are projections. But, like I say, supplied by state statisticians.

Posted by: Mark | Jun 19 2023 7:39 utc | 226

Please note, also from the graph above, Ukraine’s population trended steadily upward until virtually the moment it achieved its independence. Following that high-water mark, it trended steadily downward before the latest debacle accelerated it. You will find similar upside-down cone results for the yappy Baltic republics.

Posted by: Mark | Jun 19 2023 7:43 utc | 227

“Ukraine may have temporarily halted its counteroffensive into Russian-occupied areas to re-evaluate its tactics”
(Sly news)
Oh well, that’s a new slant i suppose. How imaginative the MSM.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jun 19 2023 7:48 utc | 228

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jun 19 2023 7:06 utc | 231
The video referenced earlier is Putin’s showing of a video about the Banderistas back in WWII murdering Ukrainian Jews and Poles which the original poster has provided English subtitles to.
I have uploaded that video to my Google Drive. You can download it from here or just send the link to anyone you wish. They can watch it there or download it themselves.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qGoEsl-Pel-ZuRrHJejkrD4ZJgdAef4H/view?usp=sharing

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 7:49 utc | 229

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2023 8:00 utc | 230

@RSH 230
They vilify the AfD in Germany in any way possible.
Therefore I suspect some “irregularities” in the upcoming state-elections.
And “they” will try to take out some people of that party. Last resort would be to declare the AfD not constitutional.
Followed by a ruling of the constitutional court some years down the line.
GermanZ are not allowed to step out of line. This is verboten!

Posted by: Goingo | Jun 19 2023 8:15 utc | 231

From Slavyangrad

“AFU soldiers refuse to fight on Leopards and take the equipment out of action
Ukrainians refuse to fight in mass on German Leopard tanks and try to put the equipment out of action in order to save their lives. This follows from a document obtained by our intelligence service, writes Dmitry Rogozin in his Telegram channel.
The fact is that the first days of the “counterattack” showed that Russian soldiers at an instinctive level try to destroy German equipment first.
“Late last night the scouts acquainted me with a curious document. It shows that the AFU is extremely concerned about the facts of mass destruction by Ukrainian tank crews of their own Leopards. In particular, in a report to his command a Ukrainian officer points out the reasons for such “defiant behavior” of his subordinates, who either put sand in the tank’s engine, or put a mine under its tail and allegedly ran over it by accident… So, the document shows that Ukrainian crews of “Leopards” refuse to fight with them en masse and if they are still driven to the attack they disable their tanks in order not to be seen by Russians when they are under the gun. The reason is simple: the AFU officer points it out in the document: Russian soldiers perceive these German tanks at the level of instinct and historical memory as a primary target. They are hit by artillery and anti-tank guided missiles, the army aviation and UAVs are working on them,” Rogozin writes.
The Ukrainian Armed Forces understand that to get into the Leopard means to sign their own death warrant. Apparently, the same heightened interest will be aroused by the American Abrams.
Rogozin also urged our soldiers to burn any enemy equipment, not just Leopards.”

So I guess hohols aren’t gonna be lining up to drive an Abrams.

Posted by: Debsisdead | Jun 19 2023 8:25 utc | 232

[229]
The inflation in Germany was caused by a combination of money printing, and the political decision to curtail the payment of war reparations by acts that curtail domestic production of items that were part of war reparations
Bit cart before horse.
German Reich did not fund the war – either war – but issuing Promissory Notes in Hitler’s case MEFOs. The intention was to extract resources from victims of German aggression to fund the costs.
After all the French Reparations to Germany after 1871 in Gold were what financed German industrialisation after 1871 and the railways and infrastructure. Germany wanted Russian resources and British maritime fleet capacity.
The British Blockade stretching into 1919 caused major shortages.
In 1920s Germany was re-arming secretly and paid compensation to German steel and coal barons who lost assets in Alsace-Lorraine when France took control.
Britain evacuated its occupation forces from Rhineland 1923 – Germany was an unreliable debtor and failed ever to pay Reparations……….the very reduced sum was finally settled in 2010
Germany had remarkably lenient treatment in Dawes Plan, Young Plan, 1953 London Conference, and in 1990 – huge haircuts – hard to imagine Germany ever been so generous with any country at any time.
Germany was a Debt Default Junkie throughout 20th Century saved after 1953 by a guarantee from US and UK and Greece to forgive debts and permit permanent German trade surpluses

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 19 2023 8:31 utc | 233

Also posted on Rezident:
⚡️⚡️⚡️
Our source in the OP said that Tarnavsky reported to Zelensky about the heavy losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the Azov operation, because of Russian aviation and artillery we are losing a lot of equipment. Recaptured positions from the enemy are covered with artillery and bombs an hour later, turning Ukrainian equipment into pieces of metal.
@Slavyangrad
—-
Zaluzhny asks Zelensky to urgently convene the HQ and stop the Azov massacre of the AFU, which repeats the Bakhmut meat grinder. The Commander-in-Chief is ready to take all the political risks and make a statement to the Ukrainians that this is his decision in order to prepare a new operation. Zaluzhny is sure that without fighter jets we will not be able to break through the enemy defenses, but will only waste the accumulated reserves.
#resident
“>https://t.me/denatofication/5895

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 19 2023 8:57 utc | 234

Re: European Peace Movement
It’s unlikely that any significant European Peace movement gains traction at least in the near term. For example The German politician advocating for peace, Wagenknecht, has been effectively marginalized after polling 19%.
It’s interesting to see the other peace party (AfD) in Germany also polling ~20%. I have no idea how much overlap between the leftist Wagenknecht and the rightist AfD exists. But this polling suggests maybe 30% and as many as 40% of German voters support peace candidates. 40% support isn’t enough for a real peace movement to gain traction. Therefore, The War Party continues to drive the agenda.
My guess is the polling data is similar through Europe.

Posted by: Exile | Jun 19 2023 9:08 utc | 235

Nah, it’s far more simple. There’s no need for a NATO because modern day RF has no fkn desires to attack anyone outside of its own borders. Never gas since 1991. It only attacked Ukraine because it was heading/planning to join NATO and was mistreating 5 million ethnic Russians in the Donbass, not to mention the lies of Minsk 1&2.
Posted by: The Dolphin | Jun 19 2023 4:29 utc | 205
Amazing that western world politicos and media are congenitally incapable of acknowledging this very basic reality.

Posted by: jpc | Jun 19 2023 9:12 utc | 236

With comments by Putin + subtext in English
A video about the atrocities of Ukrainian OUN (Banderites) during the Great Patriotic War was shown at the plenary session of the SPIEF
I subbed it so that it can be shared as wide as possible. People should know, people should see.
https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/69814
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 18 2023 17:00 utc | 43
didn’t work for me.

Posted by: abrogard | Jun 19 2023 9:30 utc | 237

We really don’t know what white South Africans think. In the village where I live there are a lot of people who are neutral about the war and a surprising number of people who are pro-Russian (including a couple of people who are quite rabidly pro-Putin, especially after a number of drinks) but you wouldn’t know about this because the South African media is owned by Russophobes who are, generally, actively promoting NATO propaganda. The media is thus owned by whites whose line is that the only reason why South Africa is neutral in the war is because blacks are all Putin-lovers. Of course this means that many white South Africans are pretty stupid about the war – the main white political party, the DA, is run by a gang of quasi-fascist Yank-worshippers like Steenhuizen and Zille who do their best to deceive their electorate. But in practice, we don’t know what the average South African thinks because the message is completely filtered out by people who have no regard for the truth.
Incidentally, I notice that nobody is talking about the “African peace mission”. In my opinion it’s a Chinese-backed effort to poke the U.S. in the eye by enabling them to accuse themselves of warmongering – hence the Polish sabotage of the mission, which was rather obviously ordered by the Americans. I don’t think the mission itself accomplished anything, but it’s impressive that the only people who have the gumption to call for peace in the region are people way outside the Western ambit (although Zambia’s pretty heavily in bed with the West these days). What do people think?

Posted by: MFB | Jun 19 2023 9:31 utc | 238

I’m just finishing up viewing Ray McGovern on Richard Medhurst, I linked to it above.
Richard is showing a blown-up page from the peace agreement that Putin was waving around at his meeting with the Africans. It has been translated to English using a Google Image Translate function.
The page allegedly shows the number of troops which Russia would allow Ukraine to have as a result of the peace agreement.
Amazingly it shows Ukraine being allowed to have 250,000 troops, 15,000 National Guard, with 800 tanks, 2400 BBM (whatever that is), 1600 MLRS (Multi-barrel Rocket Systems), 1080 mortars, 2000 ATGM (Anti-Tank Guided Missiles), and 190 SAMs (Surface-To-Air Missiles) with a maximum range of 70km.
I find it incredible that Russia was prepared to leave most of Ukraine intact with a military force of 250,000 troops and all that hardware on the mere PROMISE that Ukraine would not join NATO.
What the hell happened to “de-militarization”? What the hell happened to “de-Nazification”?
I really want to see that entire document. This is bullshit. Either this document is bullshit or Putin’s stated goals at the beginning of the war were bullshit. There is no third option except…see below…
OR – as I suspect – this document was a draft treaty which was to be sent up to Putin in April, 2022, for discussion – and eventual rejection. So of course it was initialed by both Russia and Ukraine – why not? It was NOT a finished peace treaty no matter who tries to make it seem so – including Putin.
Medhurst still doesn’t get it, either. He still claims it was Boris Johnson who wrecked it, when Johnson didn’t arrive in Kiev until days AFTER Russia had already rejected the negotiated peace treaty allegedly because Ukraine deviated from it, as I established earlier in this thread.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 9:33 utc | 239

Posted by: abrogard | Jun 19 2023 9:30 utc | 245
Get it from the Google Drive link I posted earlier. Here it is again:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qGoEsl-Pel-ZuRrHJejkrD4ZJgdAef4H/view?usp=sharing

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 9:34 utc | 240

Debsisdead | Jun 19 2023 8:25 utc | 240
——————
It is correct to think that the Russians consider Germans as the arch enemy. They 80 years ago. Today, anyone from the west side are the Nazis, the Germans. Today, when the Zelensky’s neo-semi-Nazi regime doesn’t have any more older Soviet armament, if at all very little, anything that attacks from the west is from Nazis, from the Germans.
By the way, the Russians consider the US as an artificial country, which will break down as soon as war will happen on the US soil. Not only the Russians, but most people in the Global South, just a country, or a place to earn a living. The US is just a homeland, nothing more. But Germany is, an arch enemy for centuries. This time, when the SMO will be over, Germany will have to pay…economically…that is, there is more a need for Germany to be economically developed country…

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2023 9:35 utc | 241

Posted by: Exile | Jun 19 2023 9:08 utc | 243

the other peace party (AfD) in Germany

Please stop peddling this bullshit. AfD is pro-NATO.

Posted by: dustbunny | Jun 19 2023 9:38 utc | 242

Incidentally, I notice that nobody is talking about the “African peace mission”. In my opinion it’s a Chinese-backed effort to poke the U.S. in the eye…
Posted by: MFB | Jun 19 2023 9:31 utc | 246
—————
You are quite correct here…a Chinese-backed effort to poke the U.S. in the eye…

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2023 9:41 utc | 243

Posted by: gT | Jun 19 2023 7:30 utc | 233
Found a standalone version of the sanctions parody from RT. The punchline is just perfect!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=irfjMfkhgGM (1:09 length)

Posted by: clueless | Jun 19 2023 9:50 utc | 244

Posted by: Det | Jun 19 2023 9:52 utc | 254
Look, moron, I’m going by the only document I had which was not clearly spelled out as it is merely a video image. So stuff your humble up your ass. You might try it yourself.
However, IF what you say is correct, then that PROVES that this was not a final peace treaty, but merely a draft which also shows that Russia and Ukraine were far apart at that point in the negotiations. So it is not surprising, as I established earlier, that Ukraine deviated from that draft which is why Russia rejected the treaty proposal on April 7, 2022.
I will look at the Telegram post you reference and see what else is there.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 9:58 utc | 245

@RSH
I know, I’ve expanded and dug etc. I’m slapping these docs into the pile I have released as “necessary” for press ops. I’m jealous just imagining the department in charge of creating and placing these documents. I know they must be a fun group and have lively intra-office daily interactions, if there was just one job I had to choose to lean by the water cooler and watch ot would be them. They’re slick, so smart, and so so sly. Hitting on ladies at a Moscow club, yeah you know those torpedo schematics just so perfectly laid upon the president’s desk during the interview? I did that baby let’s have pancakes and kvass for breakfast.

Posted by: NJH | Jun 19 2023 9:59 utc | 246

…f 25% of federal income in 2024 goes to paying interest only; what percent is interest payments at double or low triple digit rates ?
Posted by: Exile | Jun 19 2023 6:29 utc | 227
Answer: default. I know default is very bad, but hyperinflation is worse. The only reason you would go to hyperinflation is if your creditor threatens to bomb you back to the stone age.

Posted by: Tim | Jun 19 2023 10:01 utc | 247

Hate to be on the receiving end when this dragon decides to arm itself with thousands of grenades (or plastic explosive packed with ball bearings). Bonus points if dragon decides to fly a few inches above ground level or tree line, thus harder to hit every element of the swarm:
https://twitter.com/TripInChina/status/1670602205383254017
Good thing USA leaders know exactly what to do: antagonize the dragon and start a fight with it. /s

Posted by: Revelo | Jun 19 2023 10:02 utc | 248

Please stop peddling this bullshit. AfD is pro-NATO.
Posted by: dustbunny | Jun 19 2023 9:38 utc | 251

They definitely were in their 2018 program. Today, they are divided, and prefer not to discuss the subject in public.
https://www.spiegel.de/panorama/europawahlkampf-afd-will-nato-diskussion-meiden-a-8303038f-b6e5-4cd0-b8bc-84371de47a5b

Posted by: Erast Fandorin | Jun 19 2023 10:05 utc | 249

Paul Greenwood | Jun 19 2023 8:31 utc | 241
“The intention was to extract resources from victims of German aggression to fund the costs” – That sounds like nonsense because there was no need to do that, just like no government today is worried about paying off government debt. They just pay off old debt with new debt and that is what happened in Germany, they stopped issuing Mefo notes in 1938 and issued government bonds instead. If you have a verifiable source for your statement, I’d like to see it, but please note that unverifiable claims of known bullshitters like Wolfgang Benz don’t cut it.
I don’t know where you got the part about the British occupation troops leaving in 1923, they didn’t leave until 1929. As for Germany defaulting on reparations in the 1920s, I believe everybody at the time understood the Allies had asked for more than was possible (and that the whole Versailles treaty was a recipe for another major war). It didn’t help that the French occupied factories that could have otherwise been used to generate reparations money. The French were vengeful because Germany had humiliated them in the previous war and extracted high reparations from France. The British were more moderate.

Posted by: Debt | Jun 19 2023 10:06 utc | 250

The Telegram post referenced above says the following with pretty much the same document I was viewing on Medhurst’s Youtube channel. The text of the post is as follows (highlighting is mine):

Kremlin public showed an annex to the draft Istanbul treaty between Kiev and Moscow. It, according to Putin, was initialed (that is, preliminarily agreed upon) back in March 2022.
It indicates the number and equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in peacetime – that is, after the start of the contract(this agreement_).
Apparently, we are talking about a draft document, which includes the positions of Ukraine and Russia. Bold type indicates the number of troops and equipment defende(wanted to have) by Kiev, and italics – Moscow’s version(demand how much military equipment Ukraine to have).
Russian offers, as a rule, are 2-3 times less. For example, Ukraine wanted 800 tanks, while Russia offers 342.
Ukraine wanted 2400 armored fighting vehicles, Russia – 1029.
Kiev also planned to keep 1900 artillery pieces, Moscow – 519.
In terms of personnel – Ukraine offered 250 thousand, Russia – 85 thousand people, not counting the National Guard(National Guard up to 15 000 people).
It follows from the passage that the parties did not agree on this issue.
But it is generally confirmed that Ukraine was ready to discuss with Russia the size of its armed forces. If, of course, this document is genuine(which it looks it is geniuine).
Ukraine has not yet confirmed its authenticity(no need because they will lie,UkroReich officials lie even when they lie).
▪️ Tanks – 342
▪️ BBM(Armoured fighting vehicles ) – 1029
▪️ Artillery pieces – 519
▪️ Mortars – 147
▪️ MANPADS – 608
▪️ Combat support aircraft – 102
▪️ Number of combat troop(soldiers) up to 85,000 people
▪️ National Guard 15,000 people
@DDgeopolitics

You’ll note that the Telegram post says exactly what I said – that this was a draft, that the parties are far apart at that point in the negotiations. I don’t see a date on the document so this document could be from as far back as the middle of March, 2022, which the poster says is what Putin said, or it could be from the first week in April, 2022. The deal was rejected by the Russians on April 7, 2022. If Putin is correct that this is a draft from March, 2022, then it’s entirely irrelevant since the negotiations broke down before the first week in April, and then resumed before Ukraine deviated and Russia rejected the deal.
After that, the deal was at a “dead-end” according to Putin at the time, as I noted earlier, based primarily on the Bucha “war crimes” allegations and the charge that Ukraine deviated from the draft treaty.
THIS IS NOT A FINAL PEACE TREATY and no one should represent it as such.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 10:09 utc | 251

Posted by: Det | Jun 19 2023 10:03 utc | 260
Welcome to my block.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 10:11 utc | 252

@ Tim 258
Don’t fret about US debt! All us foreign “debt” is payable in glorious USD! Time to pay? Sure can we EFT that or would you prefer we print it?

Posted by: NJH | Jun 19 2023 10:12 utc | 253

Det is now blocked, so I won’t be responding to him or anyone who quotes him.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 10:12 utc | 254

Don’t fret about US debt! All us foreign “debt” is payable in glorious USD! Time to pay? Sure can we EFT that or would you prefer we print it?
Posted by: NJH | Jun 19 2023 10:12 utc | 266
Exactly my point 🙂

Posted by: Tim | Jun 19 2023 10:23 utc | 255

… Zaluzhny is sure that without fighter jets we will not be able to break through the enemy defenses, but will only waste the accumulated reserves.
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 19 2023 8:57 utc | 242
Those UA military guys must be handicapped if they think jets will make a significant difference. More likely it’s a drooling dog instinct to keep donors engaged in any way possible. When in doubt, panhandle.

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 19 2023 10:24 utc | 256

So apparently according to Ukraine a single explosive laden car destroyed the Kakhovka dam? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/19/kakhovka-dam-collapse-image-apparently-explosive-laden-car-ukraine-russia

Posted by: Ludovic | Jun 19 2023 10:30 utc | 257

The British Pravda (ISW) just announced that AFU may make some sort of operational pause in the Zap front. ISW would probably describe operation Bagration, Kursk and Stalingrad as operational pause for Germans, too.
New from Simplicius.
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/afu-suffers-horror-breakdowns-as

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 19 2023 10:30 utc | 258

“Since the Russian army is unable to capture Kharkov, which is 30 km from the Russian border, it’s probably hard to get anyone to care what Putin’s endgame is.”
@ Zinjanthropus | Jun 19 2023 3:15 utc | 181
Shouldn’t we consider whether Russia wants to take Kharkov? It needs to add benefit. Does it? Would it? And ‘unable’ means they’ve been trying. Have they?
There’s layers and layers in this game I think. Seems to me. No one feature can be taken as an indication of an overall truth.
Why the gas still passing through Ukraine and paying Ukraine for the privilege?
Why entry and exit from the country still ‘permitted’ by allied forces?
The whole thing is nothing but questions.
Seems to me.

Posted by: abrogard | Jun 19 2023 10:35 utc | 259

Maybe around 2030 will we start hearing serious discussions of default, debt freeze, and various other banana land measures to stave off full blown hyper-inflation insolvency.
Posted by: Exile | Jun 19 2023 4:19 utc | 203
I can be persuaded easily by your contentions. What’s your opinion of what Australia, that well known American satrapy, will do? Follow the US lead, step by step? Right to the end? Or will be saved by its own inner structure/wealth?

Posted by: abrogard | Jun 19 2023 10:37 utc | 260

Bulgaria has a history of good relations with Russia.
Posted by: Roger | Jun 19 2023 6:32 utc | 228
Bulgaria is very involved in Ukr war, weapons making, trading. The people on the streets may have good relations with Russia, the government is close to Poland levels. They even had a PM with Canadian citizenship and nazi views, big Ukr supporter. Moldova’s president is a RO citizen and Georgia’s is a FR born fat citizen. RO president has German ethnicity, big Austria ass kisser, with unexplained wealth long before he became president, since he and his ugly wife were simple teachers on paper. Probably the wealthiest high-school teachers on planet. Sometimes he’s referred to as “the wardrobe”, because he’s tall and dumb like a furniture. And I don’t even want to talk about the new nazi nato fake general from Czech hole.

Posted by: rk | Jun 19 2023 10:38 utc | 261

abrogard | Jun 19 2023 10:35 utc | 274
Zinjanthropus is a retard troll, usually posting “kiyyiyyv independent” twitter feeds. You are wasting your time.

Posted by: rk | Jun 19 2023 10:43 utc | 262

MFB | Jun 19 2023 9:31 utc | 246
But in practice, we don’t know what the average South African thinks because the message is completely filtered out by people who have no regard for the truth.
I guess there is a difference between Wes-Kaap, Oos-Kaap and KwaZulu-Natal.
Brits are definitely keeping the US/NATO line with the emerging and very destructive ideas towards seceding from the mainland.
The Cape is second to Suez strategically, for shipping between East and West. The originator of the idea is most probably MI6 and their usual wet dreams. Regardless how stupid and vile that idea is, it should be kept under the observation.
About white minorities and their attitudes, surely there are variations of disinfo levels and pro or contra RF are basically everywhere.
I am not sure that there is an easy answer. I am rather disturbed that a support for RF is also among some far right people.
And Steenhuisen has tainted his position by going to visit Ukraine in 2022, making many DA’s very unhappy there.
In my opinion, it’s a Chinese-backed effort to poke the U.S. in the eye by enabling them to accuse themselves of warmongering – hence the Polish sabotage of the mission, which was rather obviously ordered by the Americans. I don’t think the mission itself accomplished anything, but it’s impressive that the only people who have the gumption to call for peace in the region are people way outside the Western ambit (although Zambia’s pretty heavily in bed with the West these days). What do people think?
I could imagine that the actual initiative was Russian and not Chinese.
By bringing up African delegation into the racist hornet’s nest of rabid anti-Russian sentiment was to consolidate pan-African opinion.
Zambia is run under the surface through African Liberal Network, run from DA’s office in Cape Town, supported by British Westminster Foundation for Democracy. Surely the long British arm is invisible, right?

Posted by: whirlX | Jun 19 2023 10:43 utc | 263

https://vz.ru/news/2023/6/19/1217278.html
Includes film of abandoned French equipment, perhaps an armoured car or infantry fighting vehicle. A sort of brochure lying on the ground is actually in French, which could indicate that it was crewed by Frenchmen.

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 19 2023 10:55 utc | 264

@unimperator #273
Remember the “evacuation” of Azov out of Azovstal? 😉

Posted by: Goingo | Jun 19 2023 10:59 utc | 265

“Since the Russian army is unable to capture Kharkov, which is 30 km from the Russian border, it’s probably hard to get anyone to care what Putin’s endgame is.”
Since the Russian army is stalled and unable to advance against an enemy that is supposed to be smaller and weaker, it shows that their overall strategy has fallen flat on its face.
And it indicates that they did not reckon with NATO having the time or the resolve to continue to supply Ukraine.

Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | Jun 19 2023 11:00 utc | 266

Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | Jun 19 2023 11:00 utc | 281

And it indicates that they did not reckon with NATO having the time or the resolve to continue to supply Ukraine.

Yeah, like the “resolve and time” NATO had to “continue supplying the Afghan army” …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 19 2023 11:12 utc | 267

Zinjanthropus | Jun 19 2023 3:20 utc | 182
*** On the contrary, the Ukrainians have been very successful in preventing the Russians from occupying their country.***
You miss the point entirely …. “their” (ie. the Ukrainian public’s) country has ceased to exist thanks to the deliberate actions of those who rule it.
It was already sold-out, stolen and betrayed.
It would be thus regardless of whatever Russia allegedly did or didn’t do.

Posted by: Cynic | Jun 19 2023 11:12 utc | 268

@ Noam A. Larkey | Jun 19 2023 11:00 utc | 281
And it indicates that they did not reckon with NATO having the time or the resolve to continue to supply Ukraine.
Sure.
Stupid Russians.
The only reason that NATO is supplying Ukraine is that RF lets them do so. Once that is denied, the overall strategy might just be a very fast move, taking over, to RF, important territories including buffered zones with very low costs in material losses and casualties.

Posted by: whirlX | Jun 19 2023 11:23 utc | 269

A barfly “Exile” was asking for a good measurement of 404 population dynamics. I have an entirely non-empirical observation to share on this: it has been striking me for a while now to see the very large numbers of Ukrainians in the streets of my hometown here in Germany. Really it feels like half the country is here (while the other half is probably dead). I’ve been good friends with earlier Ukrainian emigres since my youth, and can sometimes recognize their accents (more singingly than most russians), so I feel I can tell.
On a personal note, they are good people, and those who’ve been to soviet elementary schools are on a higher level of cultural sophistication than post-war west germans like me. Oblomov is for real.

Posted by: persiflo | Jun 19 2023 11:35 utc | 270

The cognitive dissonance in the Western MSM (and their ‘alternative’ hellspawn) is getting harder and harder to tolerate and easier to spot:
On a random British radio show:
Guest: “Putin has demonstrated time and again that his so called red lines are only bluffs.”
Interviewer: “OK! So, when he makes threats insinuating the use nuclear weapons, we shouldn’t take him seriously?”
Guest: “Uhhh no, not quite, you see Putin is desperate and increasingly backed into a corner, so it’s quite possible he might run out of options and resort to the nuclear option if he senses he is losing …”
They desperately need you to believe Putin is a bluffer.
But they also need you to believe Putin is a psychopath.
His finger poised on hair trigger over the nuclear button.
They desperately need you to laugh at all his “red lines”.
But they also need you terrified of just that one Big Red Line …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 19 2023 11:42 utc | 271

Looks quite good, some interesting operational features, easy and cheap to produce. Demo video doesn’t show it having point tracking so it has to be hand-piloted right until impact, whereas Lancet videos do seem to show that feature being used so there is more chance of them staying on target if they are jammed at the last moment.
https://t.me/ZandVchannel/68978

🇷🇺💥🇺🇦🏴‍☠️ The new Russian kamikaze drone of the Privet-82 aircraft type hit the stronghold of the Armed Forces of Ukraine during the first combat use in the special operation zone, the Oko design bureau reported.

https://mil.in.ua/en/news/new-privet-82-loitering-munition-is-being-tested-in-russia/

The Russian Ministry of Defense is testing a new Privet-82 loitering munition to be deployed against the air defense of Ukraine.
Russian Oko design bureau from St. Petersburg is developing the drone.
Vadim Zhernov, the enterprise’s CEO, reported that the company received a protocol of Privet-82 being successfully tested by the Ministry of Defense.
According to the document, the drone was checked for the range and flight time declared by the developers with a standard payload at a distance of 10 km.
During the tests, the drone launched normally, steadily controlled throughout the flight, maneuvered, turned the engines off and on again when practicing diving on the target, and practiced a repeated attack in silent mode.
In addition, the drone demonstrated the ability to transfer control in flight from one operator to another.
It also proved the ability to preserve the control and transmission channel operation in the conditions of the enemy use of electronic warfare systems.
Besides, the Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) signals were jammed at a 2.5 thousand meter range, and then, the drone navigated without GNSS.
Russia states that the Privet-82 loitering munition will be able to carry a warhead weighing over 5 kg at a range of about 30 km and would cost slightly more than RUB 100 thousand (approx. $1200 – ed.).
The aircraft is made in accordance with the normal aerodynamic scheme and is equipped with an electric motor. The drone is launched via catapult, its cruise speed is 90 kilometers per hour, and during diving – 160 kilometers per hour.
Drone targeting is performed manually by video signal with electronic flight stabilization. It is possible to fly with GPS to an assigned area in radio silence mode, followed by manual guidance over a video signal from the operator positioned in the target area.
The range of use with video guidance is up to three kilometers in line of sight and up to 15 kilometers when using a repeater.
Deployment plan
New Russian Privet-82 drones will receive the ability to fly to the front line from single rear hubs, and operators will connect to their control at the front line and continue to direct them to targets.
According to the hub plans, one could send from one to several drones to a specific unit at once.
If there is only one operator in the unit, he would use them in turn, if there are several, one could strike one or more different targets in a coordinated manner.
It is also possible to transfer control of the drone from one operator to another when the drone arrives in the unit’s area.

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 19 2023 11:49 utc | 272

The way governments pay foreign debt is by selling goods abroad and then using the money earned to pay the debt, or more modestly, keep up with the interest expense. At the close of WWI, the trade restrictions that were in place made it impossible for Germany to raise the funds necessary to pay the external war debt. The country solved the short term problem by spending money it didn’t have. The excess money caused inflation, locking the government to spend more to cover expenses, and then it issued more money, and down the currency value went.
When the USSR was in working order, they spent money they didn’t have by issuing credits. No need to print up money, a bookkeeping entry will do. Next they prevented hyperinflation by rationing out the available goods. That is why they had pictures of store shelves that were empty. The public ended up with surplus money it couldn’t spend, but hey, prices were stable.
If we go broke, the likely cycle of events is that foreigners will come to distrust our government enough that raising foreign borrowing can be done only by paying a risk premium on the interest rate needed to borrow money. If the government doesn’t respond in a constructive way, paying the higher interest rate will aggravate the spending problem, making the country look less reliable, and thus further pushing up the risk premium interest rate needed to cover expenses. And so on and so on, until nobody will borrow us money and we default, most likely by not covering some debt when it comes due.

Posted by: Jmaas | Jun 19 2023 11:55 utc | 273

I wonder if those smashed leopards could be recycled by the Russians into FOABs.
Stuff ’em with explosives, seal the lid and drop them from a cargo transport plane over Kiev.
Probably an absurd thought, but the image of one of them with a big Z spraypainted on the sides, slowly gliding down with a parachute attached, as local Ukrainians shoot at it with small arms, amuses me.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 19 2023 11:56 utc | 274

@ ROGER; §228:
“Bulgaria good relations with Russia?”
Bulgaria fought with Germany/Austria/Turkey in WW1.
Bulgaria fought with Germany/Italy WW2.
At the beginning of the Cold War, Bulgaria wanted to join with Yugoslavia – forbidden by Stalin.
Bulgaria has been an eager member of EU/NATO.
Not much of a ´friend´ to Russia.
Amazingly, after allying with Hitler and receiving a slice of Rumania, Bulgaria was allowed to keep it after WW2!
Rumania had to surrender northern Bukovina and Bessarabia to the Soviets and southern Dobrogea to the Bulgarians.

Posted by: John Marks | Jun 19 2023 11:56 utc | 275

Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 19 2023 11:49 utc | 287

According to the hub plans, one could send from one to several drones to a specific unit at once.
If there is only one operator in the unit, he would use them in turn, if there are several, one could strike one or more different targets in a coordinated manner.
It is also possible to transfer control of the drone from one operator to another when the drone arrives in the unit’s area.

By the time this war is done the RF will be as far ahead in drone technology as they are in battlefield artillery and air defense systems.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 19 2023 11:59 utc | 276

@ whirlX, §278:
The Dutch South Africans haven´t forgotten the Boer War.
So the white South Africans probably split British/Dutch on the Ukraine war, with English speakers favouring NATZO & the YouCrane and Afrikaners favouring Russia.

Posted by: John Marks | Jun 19 2023 12:00 utc | 277

285 – I noticed somewhat elderly Ukrainians hanging around Cologne train station last summer. I had got off a coach from France and it was about 8 AM, but they were already starting on beer cans. Whether they had left Ukraine after the SMO started or had already been in Germany before it, I don’t know. The station had a sort of reception point for Ukrainian refugees, but it was not staffed, perhaps too early in the morning.

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 19 2023 12:02 utc | 278

@ Arch Bungle, §286:
Classic western projection: accuse Putin of our own criminal behaviour.
It´s the West that´s getting desperate, with lunatics like the NeoCons controlling Brandon´s puppet fingers over the nuclear button. The West has nothing left but nukes.
Who was the “guest”? Tobias Ellwood?

Posted by: John Marks | Jun 19 2023 12:06 utc | 279

Posted by: Zinjanthropus | Jun 19 2023 4:45 utc | 208
Shitbag, stop speaking on behalf of all Eastern Europe. I’m Eastern European and I completely agree that NATO needs to be dissolved, most of the my compatriots think the same and we dont give a single fuck about the Russophobic Nazi-loving cretins from the Baltics. Who the fuck these Latvians, Lithuanian and other assorted Anglo-Saxon whores think they are and that the rest of Europe should listen to their psychotic racist blather.

Posted by: Boo | Jun 19 2023 12:06 utc | 280

Posted by: John Marks | Jun 19 2023 12:00 utc | 292
.. and Afrikaners favouring Russia.
Which is bizarre to me because among the Afrikaners were great supporters of the NAZIs during the WW2. Complete with Hitler youth clubs.
A history of South African Nazis
The Afrikaner South African government and their Afrikaner dominated SADF spent decades fighting Russian influence in Southern Africa … “FILTHY KOMMIES!”
The Hot ‘Cold War’: The USSR in Southern Africa
Anecdotally, I’m personally aware of English-origin South Africans based in KZN who ran charities (at least I think they were charities) offering Russian military officers and escape to the RSA during the 1990’s.
So the picture is far more nuanced.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 19 2023 12:13 utc | 281

Posted by: John Marks | Jun 19 2023 12:06 utc | 294
Who was the “guest”? Tobias Ellwood?
It was a recentTimes Radio production. I couldn’t hear the name over the sound of my own retching.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 19 2023 12:15 utc | 282

Posted by: John Marks | Jun 19 2023 11:56 utc | 290
Bulgaria fought with Germany/Austria/Turkey in WW1. thanks to Ferdinand Saxe-Coburg-Gotha
Bulgaria fought with Germany/Italy WW2. – and yet we did not send a single gun or soldier to the Eastern and Western fronts. Soviet Union recognized this and let us have our land. On the other hand, that psychotic anglo-saxon fat fuck and war criminal winnie “the poo” churchill bombed the capital of Bulgaria and killed ~1000 innocent people.
At the beginning of the Cold War, Bulgaria wanted to join with Yugoslavia – forbidden by Stalin. – You’re historically illiterate, it was Stalin that wanted to merge Yugoslavia and Bulgaria. There was widespread “macedonization” of Bulgarians thanks to him, very similar to how Lenin and Stalin “ukrainezied” the Russians in Malo- and NovoRussia.
Bulgaria has been an eager member of EU/NATO. – Nah, NATO was never “eagerly” sought by Bulgaria, it was a pre-requisite for EU membership which was the real goal.
Not much of a ´friend´ to Russia. – Serbian propaganda talking points.
Amazingly, after allying with Hitler and receiving a slice of Rumania, Bulgaria was allowed to keep it after WW2! – Fuck you, imbecile
Rumania had to surrender northern Bukovina and Bessarabia to the Soviets and southern Dobrogea to the Bulgarians. – this land was never theirs to start with, even historically there were lots of Bulgarians in Northern Dobrudja (not Dobrogea), but not a single Romanian in Southern Dobrudja.

Posted by: Boo | Jun 19 2023 12:16 utc | 283

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 19 2023 12:13 utc | 296
Well there used to be a US President who was “a stooge of Stalin” whose Secretary of State Cordell Hull was usurped by his deputy Sumner Welles a relative of FDR and whose career skidded when Hull exposed him as homosexual…………..
Those were other days……………
As they say Times Change – People Change with the times

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 19 2023 12:20 utc | 284

Classic western projection: accuse Putin of our own criminal behaviour…
Posted by: John Marks | Jun 19 2023 12:06 utc | 294
I have started to notice how much we project when covering the Ukraine war, and it is really remarkable. We are virtually a mirror image of what is going on, everything reversed.
The reason they make such a big deal over the Leopard tanks is that they were the next big thing in dreadnaught weapons when introduced. This conclusion arrived at by the usual method: imagining that a little bit better is a world beater. These tanks are all big clunky machines, not much different if they hit a land mine or when the artillery rounds are coming in.

Posted by: Jmaas | Jun 19 2023 12:22 utc | 285

The country solved the short term problem by spending money it didn’t have.
Germany did NOT pay Reparations – it defaulted – deliberately

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 19 2023 12:23 utc | 286

“16-year-old girl had both of her arms blown off and died from her injuries. The woman, mother of three children, died in the hospital. Another 17 people, including many teenagers, received various injuries. This is the result of the barbarous shelling by Ukrainian and NATO Nazis of a temporary accommodation center for refugees in the Kherson region. The terrorists fired long-range French “SCALP” missiles. These are the same “Storm Shadow”, but made in France. ”

Posted by: rk | Jun 19 2023 12:28 utc | 287

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_reparations
Go read up on how Germany defaulted – a serial defaulter………
JP Morgan did not let Britain off repayment of War Loans – even for funds it had assumed on behalf of Tsarist Russia (which Lenin repudiated) or France…………40% British government spending after 1920 was Debt Servicing costs which led to wage cuts and General Strike and Invergordon Mutiny destroying Gold Standard

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 19 2023 12:29 utc | 288

298 – In Warsaw Pact times, Bulgaria was considered the most pro-Soviet or at least pro-Russian of the “satellites”. Certainly in British publications I read (not that their perception was necessarily accurate but that was what was stated).
During the Greek military dictatorship (1967-74), Greek army tanks on the border with Bulgaria went in for a ritual of driving right up to the frontier and pointing their tank cannons at Bulgaria. I am unaware of them doing so on their frontiers with either Tito’s Yugoslavia or Hoxha’s Albania, but both of those countries had broken with Moscow, in their different ways. Bulgaria was viewed as the beginning of the Soviet Empire.

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 19 2023 12:30 utc | 289

“As a result of the shelling of the Valuiki urban district, Belgorod region, seven people were wounded, including a child”

Posted by: rk | Jun 19 2023 12:30 utc | 290

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 19 2023 12:23 utc | 301
The country solved the short term problem by spending money it didn’t have.
Germany did NOT pay Reparations – it defaulted – deliberately

Is this about WW1? After WW2, Germany was supposed to pay reparations but West Germany instead got the Marshall Plan to prop up the country as anti-Russian bulwark in the Cold War. East Germany did pay reparations: a lot of industry was moved to the Soviet Union, and Eastern territories where given to Poland (as compensation for Polish areas that moved into USSR).
Shoddy wiki link that’s good enough in this case:

Posted by: Konami | Jun 19 2023 12:34 utc | 291

Konami | Jun 19 2023 12:34 utc | 306
stalin wanted germany to be sundered into 4 zones without any heavy industry and no potential to do 1939 ever again. fdr agreed as a way to demilitarize central europe.
fdr died and churchill reneged and ‘changed’ the agreements!
had fdr lived would there have been a cold war?

Posted by: paddy | Jun 19 2023 12:39 utc | 292

It needs doing before Trump gets in the White House or the Kennedy crazy.
I think some kind of demonstration strike will have to happen.
Posted by: Giyane | Jun 19 2023 5:18 utc | 213

Very interesting analysis of how colonialists work.
I agree it is tempting to think this way when one believes fhe actual decision centers on the Ukraine are in the US. I sometimes think Russia should have punched Washingtoh right from the start.
However I recall the aftermath of 911 when the US public was ready to lower it’s own moral standards in reaction to a percieved terrorist threat. The result has been the acceptation of torture, restrictions on civil liberties, overemphasis on security everywhere and absurd political agendas.
Although the US political system is what empowers the new colonialists who want control over Asia, it is not yet clear who are the real masters of the game. Obviously the financiers who control the media are part of that club.
The amount of radioactive dust thrown up in the upper atmosphere by numerous nuclear blasts will eventually settle down over the inhabited areas of the Northern hemisphere and threaten our health.
I agree war is an extreme form of shock therapee, however the effects of the shock take time to sink in. How can one expect a single nuclear blast to instantly change the mindset of the US elites. I guess the US would rather escalate a nuclear exchange before they realize everyone is dooned. Aren’t they pathologically insensitive people to start with?
I trust Russia and China to manage the crisis skillfully by using the minimum amount of force but still deploying all the forces needed at any step. Recall, most US wars last years if not decades so this war in Ukraine might last for still some time.

Posted by: Richard L | Jun 19 2023 12:43 utc | 293

We have received assurances from China that it won’t provide military aid to Russia for use in Ukraine – Blinky
This is true. Exactly as me saying I won’t give anyone $10m.
Then Xi, who thinks he’s some sort of galactic emperor but not when Pelosi is around, said: “the future and destiny of mankind depend on whether China and the United States can coexist”

Posted by: rk | Jun 19 2023 12:47 utc | 294

The French were vengeful because Germany had humiliated them in the previous war and extracted high reparations from France. The British were more moderate.
Posted by: Debt | Jun 19 2023 10:06 utc | 263
The French were vengeful because the entire war had been fought on French soil, French land and industry had been devastated, and the Germans had stolen everything they could carry away and blown up most of what they couldn’t carry away.

Posted by: Zinjanthropus | Jun 19 2023 12:52 utc | 295

rk @310 Lolz.
______________________
Sequence of dated images showing the scale of the shallowing of the Kakhovka reservoir in the area of the Zaporozhye NPP.
https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/69998

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 19 2023 12:52 utc | 296

Seems that the nazis Kapitulieren again:
Blinken in China said the US does NOT support Taiwan independence
and doesnt want war against China …
Prolly demanded the Chinese to force Russia to piss …against the wall.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 19 2023 12:58 utc | 297

Zinjanthropus is a retard troll, usually posting “kiyyiyyv independent” twitter feeds. You are wasting your time.
Posted by: rk | Jun 19 2023 10:43 utc | 277
People here were falsely claiming that Russia had not attacked Kiev with missiles while the African delegation was there. I quoted Jimmy Ruston, a journalist who lives is Kiev, to show that the Russians had done just that.
I’ve quoted Rand and Foreign Policy, among other sources, to show what Westerners actually thought before the war, namely that Russia would achieve a quick conventional victory.
But you can continue to put your trust in Telegram fanfic. No one is stopping you.

Posted by: Zinjanthropus | Jun 19 2023 13:06 utc | 298

@ Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 19 2023 6:06 utc | 222
There is a third contingent that questions WTF are we doing there and why are we wasting the resources? That is much smaller, and inside the current admin is not allowed to voice that outside very tightly controlled meetings. However the 16-20 “freedom” side of Rep House members are vocal, they just don’t get much into the press.
The House member to watch are not the withered old grannies, but the ones who have large military bases in their districts. They are getting back channels (my assumption, not clear proof) from the local generals about the real situations and problems with continued Ukraine support. (check out Gaetz from FL)
Keep in mind the Joint Chiefs do NOT actually control the services they represent. They are (supposed to be) a counter advisory direct to the President that advises before decisions are made AND provides feedback OUTSIDE the civilian chain of command (head of DoD and services) on actions taken. However this doesn’t happen often, and rarely publicly. Since all Generals and Admirals “serve at the pleasure of the President” anyone who has major disagreements can get shit canned. Hence they are simply political animals now.
The REAL DoD force structure power is at the 2 and 3 star level. Few of them will ever be seen in press releases or on MSM. Few will ever get into Congressional meetings. Note that last one who did, commander of CENTCOM had the least optimistic (was really pessimistic) views on the current battles, and that was before Bahkmut fell. No wonder those at his level are not available for interview or comments. And typically they wouldn’t be, so that is nothing new.
My view is at that level, there is a good amount of pushback on this Admins views and actions. Hence slow rolling F16, Abrams, and Bradleys. Note all helicopters are off the table. No Blackhawks, Apaches, etc. Also note no Special Ops equipment is ever mentioned. No Navy or USMC equipment at all, except the stuff that is being or already retired or mothballed. But all of this is internal battles, and we won’t hear of them until years, or decades later.

Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jun 19 2023 13:14 utc | 299

The goal of the SMO, demilitarisation and denazify the Ukraine.
Demilitarisation: the Ukraine’s own armament, that is what was left from the older Soviet stocks) is destroyed. Whatever left of the old Soviet stock is the former Warsaw Pact, now NATO countries are destroyed too. There maybe a few, but that doesn’t really count in a such scale war.
A lot of foreign super-duper “NATO” weapons are getting destroyed everyday, every hour. Like Putin said, let the F-16 come, and we’ll burn them. And, Russia will!
DeNazification:
It’d happen in time. By that time, most of the EU will also be de-economised.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 19 2023 13:15 utc | 300

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