karlof1
Re your prior post.
My concern is not mMoA reader response but the fact RF appears to be failing to exploit a likely weakness in UkroReich morale.
I believe from a view of the “press gang” videos that the Commissors are acting very seectively. Old Hippie posted his belief that they are selecting lower class citizens or poor citizens and avoiding sending middle class citizens to the front.
I believe it is worse than that. There were reports of Hungary raising objections as the UkroReich was delibertly targeting dual Hungarian speaking citizens. In essence the UkroReich is using the presence of the conflict to engage in ethnic cleansing and those who are sent into the Territorial “Defence” brigades and to the front with zero training and never having fired a small arm, are persons the Z regime seeks to dispose of.
If correct then while RF seeks to effect “denazification” the Z regime is working to the opposite goal – to eliminate any persons who may be supportive of RF or who are not Z acolytes.
If RF released a PR campaign that assured durrendering person of good treatment, sancuary for the duration of the conflict and no future return to the UkroReich in a prisoner exchange, I believe there would be a significant proportion of the conscripts who woudlseek to avail themselves ofsuch offer.
The only other choice avaiable to the conscripts is near certain deathor injury.
Was hoping S or other reader with Russian contacts/ presence might translate the postand/ or pass it back to some of the Telegram accounts and get it to some decision maker so RF can implement this as someform of amnesty, reduce UkroReich troop strength, save lives, end the conflict.

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 17 2023 16:02 utc | 3

@Paul Damascene I’m thinking that this charade is a big bluff in order to try and get Russia to become frightened and capitulate and just leave. The USA must know it cannot handle Russia right now, and if it really wants war it’s not ready no matter how many NATO exercises the USA tries to pull off. It’s bluster and bullshit.

Posted by: Firefly | Jun 17 2023 16:12 utc | 5

Anybody with any compassion for Slavic brethren
Dima reports (and provides video) of a UkroReich platoon ordered into the attack. As they entered the FEBA they encountered ground littered with the dead bodies of their comrades in arms. The entire platoon elected to surrender and survive.
Wagner made a fatal mistake when it announced it would take no more prisoners. RF, Putin, Valery Gerasimov, anybody with any compassion for Slavic brethren, should announce a general amnesty for UkroReich troopers who lay down their arms and accept internment in Russia for the duration of the conflict i.e. the surrendered troops will be protected by Russia and will not be exchanged or be recycled back into the conflict by the UkroReich.
I suspect such an offer / announcement will result in the complete collapse of the Potemkin army that constitutes the UAF.
The announcement should include the declaration that any officer who sends men to their certain deaths in this way for the sole purpose of achieving an “improved” Z negotiating position at the coming NATOstan conference, is guilty of murder and will be subject to prosecution at the close of the SMO.
This declaration would extend to the parquet military staffs of the NATOstan nations and to their civilian overlords up to, and including, Bidet, Blinken, Sullivan, Nuland. They are all, the entire rotten stinking cabal, equally complicit in these senseless deaths.
I don’t see how any competent officer can view this unending slaughter and continue to proudly bear arms as a military professional. I suspect there will be an increased number of refusals, resignations, retirements, from within the NATOstan military. Fighting a war is one thing. Being complicit in the death of uniformed civilians for the sake of Z prestige is not war – it is murder.
DIMA SOURCE:
https://youtu.be/i5MX_z1aSQM
The Ukrainians Faced New Challenges Before The Offensive. Military Summary And Analysis 2023.06.16
>>Originally posted to the Dead Thread<< >>Reposted in response to karlof1 response<<

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 17 2023 16:19 utc | 7

is us donating 50 atacms pods, or 50 atacms programmed himars vehicles?
according to: https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/atacms-the-missile-that-could-start-world-war-iii-in-ukraine/ar-AA151lVu#:~:text=So%20far%20the%20HIMARS%20batteries%20the%20Americans%20have,to%20re-purpose%20HIMARS%20to%20fire%20the%20ballistic%20missiles.
us donated himars are not set up to fire atacms.
the supplied atacms pods would either come with new programmed himars, mlrs tracked launch vehicles or us technicians would go in and modify the ukraine himars to fire the atacms pod.
atacms pod is two larger rockets, with heavier throw, and range over 200 km.
being long range ballistic they are likely subject to interception.
more expensive effort to prove long range bombing has a pay of!
and usa wil identify, fix and coordinate fires by ar=tacms!

Posted by: paddy | Jun 17 2023 16:24 utc | 9

West always says “All options are on table “including nuke use .west threatens nuke use against non nuclear states from 3rd world too
But Russiaakways says “no option is on table” russian vague threats are so stupidly unbelievable that her enemy think nothing of that and get encouraged to push the envelope .
That will see the downfall of Russia soon .with traitors like sergie Lavrov and Pesk , Russia is doomed.

Posted by: Sam | Jun 17 2023 16:26 utc | 11

There are a few very smart posters here and I enjoy reading what you have to say. The rest of you just blather nonsense. The US and their little poodles are being isolated internationally. This conflict has sped that process up. If you honestly think a bunch of psychopaths can out smart the Russians and Chinese, you’re smart as a stick. The west is going downhill faster than they’ll ever admit. The yelling and screaming and posturing is complete desperation. They can’t win and they know it. They’ll keep fighting until they run out of Ukrainians, and mercenaries and anyone else stupid enough to be brainwashed by the USG. Going to get worse before it gets better but it will get better. For the entire planet.

Posted by: Watzov | Jun 17 2023 16:33 utc | 13

⚡️ Situation in the Orekhovo direction
We confirm reports of enemy activation in the 58th Army’s defense area – in the direction of Stepovoye-Pyatikhatki and near Malaya Tokmachka. As reported, since the morning actively carried out the supply of personnel. Then AFU units with armored vehicles went on the offensive, where they ran into minefields and were subjected to massive artillery fire. A Bradley BMP was left on the mines, as well as a demining vehicle based on an MT-LB. Artillery and anti-tank guided missile systems destroyed over 10 BMPs and five tanks, including Leopards. According to our information, the 58th Army used high-precision Krasnopol ammunition in that battle.
In total on the Orekhovo direction the enemy lost 11 tanks, 15 BMPs and 10 AFVs. In terms of personnel: at least 150 casualties and in the area of 400 wounded.
As you may have seen, other sources report even higher losses to the AFU. Maybe our data just hasn’t been updated yet. The unlucky 128 OgshbR, almost completely reassembled after the battles in the Kherson direction last year, took part in the meat assault. Sources from the field report that the Ukrop literally pelted our positions with meat. It has enough live force, and even with such losses the offensive potential is still great. Still, we hope that after such losses the Ukrainian mobiks will draw appropriate conclusions – such assaults are a one-way road for them.
@voin_dv
https://t.me/sharednewsby/4894

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 17 2023 16:44 utc | 15

Just saw an interview between Aleks from Black Mountain Analysis and Larry Johnson.
Very impressive.
Especially about the Ukrainian offensive and some intelligence topics.
https://bmanalysis.substack.com/p/interview-series-part-3

Posted by: Thomas | Jun 17 2023 16:49 utc | 17

Getting near the time when a Global Hawk drops out of the sky as an warning to Rivet Joint

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 17 2023 16:58 utc | 19

Ukrainian soldiers would do well to consider the US track record in supporting allies and supposed friends. The vassals are lionized for as long as they keep smashing their heads against walls. When defeat finally arrives, the attitude changes. Then it becomes a blame-fest — and guess who gets to be the scapegoat.
A Position Of Strength is the NATO mantra. In other words, the Taliban were Permitted to win.Or perhaps, fight them there rather than here fell out of fashion.
The former generals sloganeering for Kiev are ALL making money off their (heh-heh) support. Remarkable.

Posted by: DilNir | Jun 17 2023 17:14 utc | 21

I should think being wounded as a Ukro is a death sentence. I cannot imagine Ukraine has any health care system or medication or prosthetics now.
Much be a lot of crippled ignored or suicidal.
This must be a society fragmenting along many fissures-

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 17 2023 17:15 utc | 23

People accurately declare Washington and NATO are not prepared for a conventional war with Russia. It’s the truth and everybody knows it.
But people draw false conclusions from this truth. They apply rationality and logic where there is none to be found. Name a single rational or logical step that Washington and NATO have taken since they started provoking this crisis. I don’t think you can. All the ignorance, arrogance, incompetence and greed has twisted the minds of western leaders who actually believe it is their divine right to rule the world and they will do anything, no matter how irrational or illogical in their attempt to maintain their power. The more their power slips through their fingers, the more irrational they will become.
They will convince themselves that air power is enough…just like sanctions were supposed to be enough to bring down Russia. They will convince themselves all they have to do to win is show Russia that their commitment to victory is total and Russia will fold like a house of cards. Of course they couldn’t be more wrong but they will believe it anyways.
In short, they are going to take the world right into the abyss. Without something to drastically make these lunatics change course, they will steam themselves and us into the eye of the perfect storm.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 17 2023 17:20 utc | 25

I trust Muttley more than Milley,

Posted by: DilNir | Jun 17 2023 17:24 utc | 27

Interesting stuff it makes you wonder what the goal was, what of who was the target.
“On June sixteenth, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation launched a group strike with high-precision long-range sea- and air-based weapons on one of the decision-making centers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The purpose of the strike has been achieved. The designated object is hit,” the report says.
What exactly was the goal, the military department did not disclose.”
https://ria.ru/20230617/spetsooperatsiya-1878872630.html

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 17 2023 17:40 utc | 29

LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 17:30 utc | 28
You’re more right than you know — self-interest is liberal capitalist ideology.
In fact, all values, ultimately, are other people’s neuroses that we are exhorted to place above life itself, that we are expected to kill and die for, to be seen killing and dying for, and to be seen wanting to kill and die for. It’s a stupid game, really.

Posted by: Concerned Citizen | Jun 17 2023 17:42 utc | 31

Republicofscotland | Jun 17 2023 17:40 utc | 29
According to Tsargrad.tv
ISKANDER CAN HANDLE THIS: THE RUSSIANS COULD HAVE COVERED A NETWORK OF BUNKERS IN KIEV
The Russians may have covered a network of bunkers in Kiev that housed high-ranking Ukrainian military officials and their foreign handlers. Analysts assume that Iskander-M has once again successfully worked out.
Today it became known about a powerful high-precision strike on another decision-making center in Ukraine. Officially, the Russian Ministry of Defense informed about this, leaving a laconic message in Telegram.:
On June 16, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation launched a group strike with high-precision long-range sea-and air-based weapons against one of the decision-making centers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The goal of the strike has been achieved. The assigned object is hit.
Конечно, многим бы хотелось узнать все подробности, вплоть до адреса места удара, кто находился в этом центре принятия решений и прочие детали… Но очевидно, что официально детали сейчас не сообщат: в условиях сражений и продолжающихся боёв любое лишнее слово может сыграть на руку противнику и если не помочь ему, то дать возможность перевернуть всё, как говорится, с ног на голову.
Однако некоторые подробности всё же просочились в информационное пространство. По данным ресурса Readovka со ссылкой на источник в Минобороны России, удар по центру принятия решений, о котором сегодня сообщило ведомство, был нанесён на несколько километров севернее Киева. Там располагался военный штаб Вооружённых сил Украины. В момент нанесения удара в нём находились высокопоставленные сотрудники ВСУ и ГУР Украины.
By the way, analysts of the publication consider as one of the options a hypothetical blow inflicted on this center yesterday afternoon. In this case, there is an explanation for why eyewitnesses did not report arrivals. The target could be some kind of underground structure. The Iskander-M ballistic missiles most likely used in yesterday’s attack are armed with a penetrating concrete-piercing warhead, so they can handle such a target.
And then it becomes clear why the representatives of the African delegation did not hear any blows: if the Iskander warhead was set to explode with a dive, the sound from the arrival could be much quieter than with a standard detonation on the surface. Under certain conditions, it might not even break out at all or be confused with the sound of Ukrainian air defense systems.
By the way, we considered the issue of underground shelters earlier. Just at the beginning of June, a scandal broke out in Kiev due to the fact that shelters for citizens were closed. Kiev Mayor Vitali Klitschko had to react to this, but he did not solve the problem.
But the Ukrainian elite knows where to hide if anything happens. Bunkers for senior officials in the capital of Ukraine have remained since Soviet times.
Head of the telegram channel “Ukraine. ” Konstantin Kevorkian in an interview with Tsargrad reported that the network of bunkers near Kiev was conceived with the expectation of military operations, including.
Surely all important objects related to the functioning of the then Ukrainian SSR, and now the Ukrainian state, are equipped with such shelters. And we know for sure that there are similar bunkers on Bankova Street, that is, the current president’s place of residence, there are underground communications connecting the Verkhovna Rada, the Council of Ministers and the Presidential Administration,
– he said.
As for ordinary people, they will be sent to the metro as a last resort, and of course they will not be devoted to the “secret” about the network of bunkers.
I also suspect that there are a number of such shelters, which are not well known, because they are a state secret,
– the expert admitted.
Returning to the question of where exactly the Russian missile hit the day before, you can guess for a very long time. But if we recall past successful strikes on enemy decision-making centers, we can pay attention-who will disappear after Zaluzhny and Budanov? Recently, “wares” have become a trend in Ukraine.

Posted by: Carlsson on the roof | Jun 17 2023 17:51 utc | 33

I didn’t write this.
I’m not sure who did but its an excellent summary of the obscenity that has occurred
“NATO are supporting this war because their senior partner is run by neocon balloons who refuse to accept that American global hegemony is over. If you think Putin is bad, do some research on Antony Blinken, Victoria Nuland, William Kristol, the Kagans…they all share the same view: anyone who threatens American global preponderance is a threat that should be eliminated. If that means sacrificing an entire nation for the benefit of America, then they’ll happily trade bullets for blood.
Moreover, sending men on a suicidal counter offensive to give the MS media something positive to write about is repugnant and should be condemned by everyone. There’s footage online of young Ukrainian men with their arms and jaws blown off by Russian artillery. They’re not fighting for Ukraine. They’re fighting for the American neocons and their insane quest to cling onto global primacy.”

Posted by: jpc | Jun 17 2023 17:58 utc | 35

Carlsson on the roof (33).
Thank you for that response.
I recall a couple of high ranking Israeli commanders killed in Syria when Russian bombers did the same in taking out a supposedly ISIS base.

Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 17 2023 18:01 utc | 37

@DilNir | Jun 17 2023 16:47 utc | 16

So-ho, Jens the Jerk may be extended as NATO sicko-general. He is, apparently, an effective leader. This must mean that Schmo Joe prefers this particular clot to hold his wrinkled pizzle. Imagine trusting Boris, Ursula, etc..

No surprise, they have Jens by the balls since 2011. He is not an effective leader, he is an effective quisling that does what his master orders. Nobody really wants to administer the downfall of NATO, so Jens it has to be.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 17 2023 18:03 utc | 39

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 17 2023 17:59 utc | 36
###############
Most nations are run by a cabal of elites, financial, military, or both.
The idea of the “strong man” leader who does it all on his own is Hollywood-esque fiction. It does give the citizenry a focal point for their dissatisfaction, allowing the elites to operate in relative obscurity.
How many Americans know the name Victoria Nuland? If you told me it was 5%, I’d doubt it. And yet, one could argue she is more powerful globally than Joe Biden, who is the target (as he is meant to be) of so much energy and critique.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 18:08 utc | 41

Why Russia is not parking catched Leopards & Bradley in fron of German & US embassy in moscow?
The operation can be carried out by a russian NGO or group of anti nazi artists
Similar operation the nazis performed in Berlin & Amaterdam
Western agencies always hiding their operations behind NGOs
It would be big PR blow into the western nazi faces

Posted by: Miau | Jun 17 2023 18:11 utc | 43

Our source in the OP said that the General Staff, together with MI-6, is preparing a series of strikes with long-range Storm Shadow missiles at military airfields where Russian helicopters are located.
At the moment, the Armed Forces of Ukraine are suffering heavy losses due to the work of Russian aviation, which is quietly destroying our heavy equipment.

https://t.me/rezident_ua/18350

Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:24 utc | 45

Due to the destruction of the Kakhovka dam, an ecological disaster associated with a sharp desalination of water awaits the Black Sea. At the same time, the coasts of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria will suffer, where polluted water will fall.
So, according to the Minister of Health Viktor Lyashko, the water in the Dnieper is polluted 28,000 times more than the norm. Moreover, the entire water area below the Kakhovka dam, as well as the Ukrainian coast of the Black Sea, is unsuitable for use and swimming.
“There was an excess of 28,000 times over certain indicators. Therefore, bathing, fishing, you can not drink this water, water cattle. When a person bathes in such water, a disease can potentially occur. Treatment facilities have switched to emergency disinfection regimes. Monitoring has been tightened quality of water in the water supply network, so as not to miss the outbreak,” Lyashko said.
At the same time, the minister did not specify the dangerous diseases: “If I now list all the threatening diseases, we will not have enough time today – parasitic, viral, bacteriological.” Now the Ministry of Health cannot predict when the Black Sea and the Dnieper will be cleared. And this is not surprising – in recent years, the Ukrainian healthcare system and anti-epidemic control have completely degraded.
However, in addition to an environmental disaster, the destruction of the dam of the Kakhovskaya hydroelectric power station will have a huge impact on global food security and will inevitably lead to an increase in food prices. In particular, the UN warns about such a development of events.
It should be noted that the break of the dam immediately caused concern in the markets due to a possible disruption in the supply of grain and sunflower oil from Ukraine. The very next day after the catastrophe, world wheat prices rose by 3% – to $6.4 per bushel, corn – by 1%, oats – by 0.8%.
After the correction, wheat is worth about $6.23. And we must understand that the rise in food prices in the world will inevitably lead to an increase in prices in Ukraine (the country’s economy is open, and Ukraine will definitely import food inflation).

https://t.me/rezident_ua/18353

Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:26 utc | 47

Our source reports that the Bakhmutovskaya meat grinder caused great damage to the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the loss of a huge number of “snipers” in this direction.
There were a lot of snipers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the houses and on the roofs, who went through more than one battle, but almost all of them died after the arrival of guided bombs.
Snipers are not particularly important during an offensive, but in protracted urban battles, a sniper is a “trump card” against an opponent’s assault groups.
Everyone in the army considers the Bakhmutov meat grinder a mistake by the Office of the President, which can be “highly expensive” in strategic terms.

https://t.me/legitimniy/15645

Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:31 utc | 49

The entire American/Western Empire is founded in the U.S. dollar and debt. And emotional Americans and Europeans voluntarily agreed to seppuku their Financial bellies.
Posted by: kupkee | Jun 17 2023 17:22
…and thats exactly what is all about. Forget all the military and moral stuff. The US is depend of selling debt. Otherwise the Dollar will enter Hyperinflation due the defecit spending policy.
Russia knows that. They just have to maintain there meatgrinder up and running and sit’n’wait untill the US is finishing itself, unable to see the truth. Like Goebbels in Feb45: “der Endsieg ist nahe” (the final victory)
One must understand, that this is not about “how many tanks xxz got destroyed”, but if the whole US comes down. The West also are conpromised by the Gaga-Schwab-Transformation dream, which is effectivly makes the West defendless. Thanks Klaus, great Plan…

Posted by: ableman | Jun 17 2023 18:32 utc | 51

jpc (quoting someone else) stated (#35):
“ If you think Putin is bad, do some research on Antony Blinken, Victoria Nuland, William Kristol, the Kagans…they all share the same view: anyone who threatens American global preponderance is a threat that should be eliminated. If that means sacrificing an entire nation for the benefit of America, then they’ll happily trade bullets for blood.”
The reality, however, is that the neocons care about the USA only insofar as they can continue to suck the life out of it for the benefit of the international Zionist cabal.

Posted by: Ciaran | Jun 17 2023 18:35 utc | 53

DEC 2023
ZCZ3
OPT
597’6
+23’2 (+4.05%)
574’4
573’4
598’0
572’4
276,805
16:39:00 CT
16 Jun 2023
MAR 2024
ZCH4
OPT
604’0
+21’6 (+3.74%)
582’2
580’6
604’2
580’2
36,875
16:38:13 CT
16 Jun 2023
MAY 2024
ZCK4
OPT
605’2
+19’6 (+3.37%)
585’4
584’0
605’4
583’6
13,106
16:37:48 CT
16 Jun 2023
JUL 2024
ZCN4
OPT
603’2
+18’2 (+3.12%)
585’0
583’2
603’6
583’2
14,073
16:39:04 CT
16 Jun 2023

Posted by: T S | Jun 17 2023 18:39 utc | 55

Firefly @5
Hope you’re right, as I suspect you are.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 17 2023 18:44 utc | 57

Inkan1969 | Jun 17 2023 18:25 utc | 46
I see you were unable to name one.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 17 2023 18:49 utc | 59

” I see that as not an issue.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 18:49 utc | 60 ”
Of course you dont because you’re a 5d Putinphile but what will the Muslim and Arab world think ?

Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 18:54 utc | 61

“Such voyages are more needed for the attempts of international players to express themselves.”
Once or twice a month these ukro channels have the right ideas. I read SA plan, it’s nothing. At least they had no retarded ideas like Lula or Xi. Also, they asked for food like it’s Putin’s problem the grain deal isn’t working for Africa, while SA is still in ICC trying to milk all cows. At the same time being strip searched and banned in Poland. The highlight of their careers in only two days

Posted by: rk | Jun 17 2023 18:58 utc | 63

Shocked | Jun 17 2023 18:43 utc | 56–
Given your further reply to whirlX @61, it’s clear you’re a troll.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 17 2023 19:02 utc | 65

Don Bacon | Jun 17 2023 18:59 utc | 64–
It’s a shame the rebuttal can’t be given directly to the writer of that crap as Down South is merely the messenger. What is coming clear is the outlines of the Blame Game are now surfacing as we all know Neocons are never at fault for anything.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 17 2023 19:06 utc | 67

” Given your further reply to whirlX @61, it’s clear you’re a troll.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 17 2023 19:02 utc | 65 ”
Care to address the issue at hand or do you just want to insult people ?
” At Palestine’s Expense
‘It is not exactly clear why Russia has decided to make such a move at a time when Moscow has been drawing closer and closer to the Arab position on Palestine,” Palestinian author and editor of The Palestine Chronicle Ramzy Baroud said, adding, “but it seems that a political barter has been achieved between Moscow and Tel Aviv, sadly, at the expense of the Palestinians.”
“Considering the growing affinity towards Russia in Palestine and the Arab world, and China’s stronger position in solidarity with the Palestinians, the Russian move, if not canceled, could turn Russia’s ‘political achievement’ into a major liability among Palestinians and throughout the Middle East,” Baroud added. ”

Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:13 utc | 69

This could be a info-nuke: https://roloslavskiy.substack.com/p/belarus-reveals-hidden-sell-out-agenda/comments

Posted by: e | Jun 17 2023 19:21 utc | 71

Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:29 utc | 48
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 17 2023 18:59 utc | 64
I agree that the concept that Boris Johnson could use his persuasive powers to dissuade Zelensky from compromise in Istanbul WITHOUT US APPROVAL defies all our prior knowledge. Zelensky’s people (if not himself) would know or check what USA thinks. All public records of Truss and Sunak are rabidly anti-Russian, so hardly a change in that direction. And all public records of Biden Administration corroborate that they wanted the war to “overextend Russia.” Hard to tell who could conceive “victim Boris” fantasy and why. Perhaps, “sowing confusion and discord”.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 17 2023 19:25 utc | 73

” They are Putinophiles, too.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 19:23 utc | 72 ”
They wont be after this ill timed development.

Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:29 utc | 75

@ Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:29 utc | 75
From Reuters ticker:

Russia’s embassy in Israel will open offices in Jerusalem to serve its consular section, as part of an agreement with the city, the embassy and Israel’s foreign ministry said on Friday.

There are many Russian Jews living in Jerusalem.
I am sure UAE and Saudis will understand. Abbas might be happy too.
Why are you making anything out of it?

Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 19:33 utc | 77

” There are many Russian Jews living in Jerusalem.
I am sure UAE and Saudis will understand. Abbas might be happy too.
Why are you making anything out of it?
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 19:33 utc | 77 ”
Your denial of reality is amazing. If you think the Muslim world will accept this you havent been paying attention.

Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:36 utc | 79

Don’t say the Kremlin doesn’t understand information war. After the self-inflicted gunshot wound to the chest by Polish authorities, and members of the delegation calling out the lack of an actual air raid they travel to Russia.
Almost certainly they’re treated as honored guests. There’s a long, informal conversation with Putin. Then it’s in the formal meeting that Putin shows the world the draft settlement agreement from Belarus/Turkiye. Obviously the decision makers of the world knew it existed. Making it public is different. And it puts the African leaders front and center because Putin chose them to use the actual document to make his case.
It’s the diplomatic equivalent of a sledgehammer.
It also makes the case that Russia will now go until Russia is satisfied. Combined with Putin publicly saying “screw them” about NATO, I think we can all conclude that attitudes have hardened significantly.

Posted by: Lex | Jun 17 2023 19:38 utc | 81

” Having Russian Diplomats in Jerusalem will help protect the Christians in the area. Note, some 40% of the Arabs in the area covered in UNR181 are Christians.
Posted by: Exile | Jun 17 2023 19:36 utc | 78 ”
Justifying the unjustifiable is sad.

Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:39 utc | 83

They wont be after this ill timed development.
Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:29 utc | 75
##################
Regardless of which of the many sites and subjects I comment on, I am still amazed by the inability of most seemingly intelligent people to not understand that some people are playing a longer game, with different values than they have.
We have no idea what Putin is doing, and anyone who claims otherwise is not being honest.
The same applies to the SMO. Just because it doesn’t make “sense” to us, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense to someone else.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 19:45 utc | 85

” Regardless of which of the many sites and subjects I comment on, I am still amazed by the inability of most seemingly intelligent people to not understand that some people are playing a longer game, with different values than they have.
We have no idea what Putin is doing, and anyone who claims otherwise is not being honest.
The same applies to the SMO. Just because it doesn’t make “sense” to us, doesn’t mean it doesn’t make sense to someone else.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 19:45 utc | 85 ”
The whole point of this site is speculation as your comment described so well, In fact, thats all that people do here. Yet, when in comes to Israel and the Palestinians we’re just supposed to automatically assume Putin’s and Russia’s good intentions and keep silent ? I find this very concerning.

Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:55 utc | 87

Posted by: Ingolf Eide | Jun 17 2023 3:45 utc | 356
I’ve been following the dropbox you’ve set up on the start of the SMO.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/y9hdpbiyzzbm6o4jesjsa/Enquiry-into-Origins-and-Early-Days-of-SMO-June-2023.docx?dl=0&rlkey=55azkczh731a6xbl3lwtzky6o
That in connection with your recent comments on Putin’s televised press conference:-
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/06/ukraine-open-thread-2023-141/comments/page/4/#comments
Those comments showing a more accurate assessment of Putin’s take on this war than the often lurid interpretations we’re given by the Western press.
Fast moving events have absorbed attention recently but I still believe that that early period, the run-up to and the start of the SMO, is the most important period when it comes to apportioning responsibility for this war.
In contradiction to Mearsheimer’s view, that this war was an inevitable response to Western pressure going back as far as the last century, I believe that the Russians were coping adequately with that Western pressure and would have continued to do so, but that they were forced against their will to military action by the immediate and urgent threat to the Donbass. This was, therefore, no “unprovoked” war. It was provoked by the West and it was provoked on the LoC in February 2022.
The Mearsheimer account is important background. It’s put together with scholarly precision. It often shows Mearsheimer himself as a courageous man, braving the almost universal opposition he encounters in academic and wider circles. But Mearsheimer is wrong. Even from such information as was available at the time it was clear that the Russians didn’t want this war, didn’t need it, and were forced to take pre-emptive action only to prevent the threat to the Donbass. I don’t want to flood your dropbox with references and links on that since there are commenters on b’s site who are able to put together a better informed and perhaps more concise summary.
And “concise” is where it gets difficult. The Western story on this war, believed by almost all in the West, is more or less that Putin is a megalomaniac dictator bent on restoring old empire. That’s concise and comprehensible enough in all conscience. We can grasp it easily, it fits with so many old prejudices and misconceptions, and it’s a story that once accepted explains all and justifies all.
But to contest that story detailed and often complex background knowledge is needed. We need to know what’s been happening in the Donbass for the past several years. We need to know what’s been happening in Ukraine over that period.
And for me, who am particularly concerned with the European dimension, we need to go back to at least the pre-Maidan Association Agreement negotiations, those negotiations in which Mrs Merkel played so prominent a part. When it comes to the Maidan we need to look away a little from Mrs Nuland and her cookies and examine more what Lady Ashton or Verhofstadt were doing in Kiev at the time. We need to look at the 2019 Munich Security Conference and to see there the braggart and inflammatory role already assumed by HMG that was later to lead directly to Johnson’s sabotage of the Istanbul peace talks.
We need to look at a subject now seldom mentioned in the Western press. In the light of recent statements from Merkel, Hollande and Poroshenko we can now reassess the true intentions of Germany and France, when those two countries put their credibility and weight behind the duplicitous farce the Europeans made of the only settlement that could have brought true peace to the Ukraine, Minsk 2.
And we need to look at Scholz, pursuing a policy indistinguishable from that of his predecessor; and a policy fully in accordance with that of Merz and Habeck for all his pretence of reluctance or moderation. I find Scholz, with his German and EU and, regrettably, his UK colleagues, to be a more central figure than Biden when looking at the reason for this war. That view is squarely in opposition to the view of most American commentators, who regard Scholz et al merely as American puppets. As with Syria, as elsewhere, we see the Europeans attempting to leverage American financial and military power for their own ends rather than being overborne by it. For, from where I’m sitting, and figuratively speaking, the White Tiger had more to do with this conflict than the Neocon Hawk.
We also need to look at Russian military action at the very start of the SMO. Because I believe that that military action does not show, as most Western journalists assume, any intention to conquer Ukraine as a preliminary to moving on to the Baltics or other nearby countries. It shows only a clear intention to nullify the threat to the Donbass and to put it out of the power of Kiev or the West to mount any more such threats.
Only when all this is put together can we examine the nature of the threat posed by the Kiev forces on the LoC in February 2022, the Russian assessment of that threat, and the Russian response.
A necessary aside. It’s now the case that such examination is rendered more difficult because that original SMO has expanded considerably. We must not read back into what the Russians intended then what they may well, as a result of Western escalation, be intending now.
By now Russia should have been in the throes of a severe economic crisis, that leading to the fall of the Putin administration or, as some of the more hopeful thought, to the break-up of the RF itself. On the military side it had been expected that the quick Russian military victory that such as General Milley had been confidently predicting would lead to the Russian army being trapped in an unwinnable and costly insurgency. But the economic crisis didn’t happen. “Russian’s Afghanistan” didn’t happen, though forecast often enough. Nothing we’ve done has worked and our leaders are at once irresolute, divided, and casting around for a way out of the disaster. Blindly doubling down has been the inevitable Western response and we’re now waiting to see how far that doubling down will go.
That has taken the conflict to a new level. Failing any settlement to the conflict it could be that to counter the Kiev/Western threat to the Donbass, and to Russia overall, we could well see the Russians going as far as Western Ukraine. And there have been indications recently that the Russians now intend to do more even than that and in one way or another get their 2021 European security demands met into the bargain. On none of that can we be certain, but both are now a possibility.
In short, the more the West piles on the pressure the more firmly we see the Russians responding to that pressure. But these subsequent developments of the conflict should not obscure the fact that, at the beginning of the SMO, the Russian aims were limited. Nor should it obscure the essential fact that they were just.
That is a most difficult fact for us in the West to acknowledge. Who likes being in the wrong, and so disastrously? Could we in the UK, who fought Nazis for six exhausting years, ever acknowledge that we have been utilising neo-Nazis as a foreign policy tool? Could the Germans, to whom all things Nazi are anathema, ever acknowledge that Merkel and then Scholz were backing ultra-nationalists in Ukraine whose ideology, whose symbols even, derive directly from a period of German history they make such a show of repudiating?
But until that is acknowledged, until that is shown to be the case, we are condemned to a state of perpetual enmity, not only with Russia but with other countries increasingly on the Russian side, that will damage Europe severely and maybe irretrievably.

Posted by: English Outsider | Jun 17 2023 19:58 utc | 89

Pyatikhatki (Orekhovskoe) & comments @15 & @70
Further information about the liquidation of the advancing UAF forces (claim for losses exceeding one thousand)
“Zaporozhye. Orekhovskoe direction. I am responsible for the data. The enemy went on the offensive in large numbers. Enemy infantry moved forward with the support of NATO tanks and armored vehicles. In this area there was a heavy continuous battle. Within a day, the Ukrainian assault battalion was completely destroyed . Not a single soldier, not a single officer could retreat. I know the number of armored and burned equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine per day, it is incredibly high, but it is up to the Russian Ministry of Defense to report specific results.”
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/51115, quoting
https://t.me/Sladkov_plus/7976

Posted by: @vec | Jun 17 2023 20:02 utc | 91

News from the front, it seems fighting around bahkmut is stopped for about two days, at least ukraine isn’t reporting anymore bombed kindergartens.
I’m guessing ukraine has concentrated everything in the south and russia forgot to keep fighting while ukraine is busy elsewhere.
Maybe they could use a satellite or two and see where they can poke ukraine, you know if putin is looking to get some smo action in while the getting is good.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 17 2023 20:07 utc | 93

@Neofeudalfuture | Jun 17 2023 19:04 utc | 66
@13 well the Chinese and russia governments are just as awful as the US one
Really? The U.S. Has Killed More Than 20 Million People in 37 “Victim Nations” Since World War II. How many millions of people in other countries have China and Russia killed?

Posted by: Cyril | Jun 17 2023 20:09 utc | 95

I am waiting to make judgements until there are more official statements from Palestine. However, I do not believe that Russia is risking its historical relations with Palestine, but that it has first anchored the decision with the Palestinians in one way or another. If not, it would be a gigantic diplomatic blunder, which I can’t imagine an experienced diplomat like Mr Lavrov doing.

Posted by: Carlsson on the roof | Jun 17 2023 20:12 utc | 97

@62
Well I believe he would be called the son of a shiksha whore among some groups as his mother was not jewish.

Posted by: badjoke | Jun 17 2023 20:13 utc | 99