Ukraine Open Thread 2023-142
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
The current open thread for other issues here.
Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Posted by b on June 17, 2023 at 15:36 UTC | Permalink
next page »In the same week, US approvals for ATACMS and DU weapons, B1 simulated nuclear bombing runs across the Black Sea...every indication is that NATO & RF are now on a track for direct conflict.
But in this case, should sending out very loud indications of a move to a war footing be interpreted as a sign of commitment to attack or impotence? The specific acts of belligerence themselves seem so far from the commitments NATO would have to make to actually begin war preparations that one does wonder if war is as close as they seem to want us to think...
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 17 2023 16:00 utc | 2
karlof1
Re your prior post.
My concern is not mMoA reader response but the fact RF appears to be failing to exploit a likely weakness in UkroReich morale.
I believe from a view of the "press gang" videos that the Commissors are acting very seectively. Old Hippie posted his belief that they are selecting lower class citizens or poor citizens and avoiding sending middle class citizens to the front.
I believe it is worse than that. There were reports of Hungary raising objections as the UkroReich was delibertly targeting dual Hungarian speaking citizens. In essence the UkroReich is using the presence of the conflict to engage in ethnic cleansing and those who are sent into the Territorial "Defence" brigades and to the front with zero training and never having fired a small arm, are persons the Z regime seeks to dispose of.
If correct then while RF seeks to effect "denazification" the Z regime is working to the opposite goal - to eliminate any persons who may be supportive of RF or who are not Z acolytes.
If RF released a PR campaign that assured durrendering person of good treatment, sancuary for the duration of the conflict and no future return to the UkroReich in a prisoner exchange, I believe there would be a significant proportion of the conscripts who woudlseek to avail themselves ofsuch offer.
The only other choice avaiable to the conscripts is near certain deathor injury.
Was hoping S or other reader with Russian contacts/ presence might translate the postand/ or pass it back to some of the Telegram accounts and get it to some decision maker so RF can implement this as someform of amnesty, reduce UkroReich troop strength, save lives, end the conflict.
Posted by: Sushi | Jun 17 2023 16:02 utc | 3
can nato / eu / usa escalate in any direction against russia (or iran,china) nowadays?
economically, financially ?
militarily - with ATAMACS - more attacking drones?
more sabotage inside russia?
blocking some seaways?
Posted by: gpc | Jun 17 2023 16:07 utc | 4
@Paul Damascene I'm thinking that this charade is a big bluff in order to try and get Russia to become frightened and capitulate and just leave. The USA must know it cannot handle Russia right now, and if it really wants war it's not ready no matter how many NATO exercises the USA tries to pull off. It's bluster and bullshit.
Posted by: Firefly | Jun 17 2023 16:12 utc | 5
Sushi
I agree 100 percent, I can’t imagine what these poor people are going through. This is truly a meet grinder of the lower class in Ukraine and my government is cheering it on. If I could have one wish it would be to see all the oligarchs, and the US government , with all of congress ,white house, state department, cia, FBI, and military heads be put on the front lines in Ukraine. Add to that all of the big wigs in Nato!
Posted by: Susan | Jun 17 2023 16:16 utc | 6
Anybody with any compassion for Slavic brethren
Dima reports (and provides video) of a UkroReich platoon ordered into the attack. As they entered the FEBA they encountered ground littered with the dead bodies of their comrades in arms. The entire platoon elected to surrender and survive.
Wagner made a fatal mistake when it announced it would take no more prisoners. RF, Putin, Valery Gerasimov, anybody with any compassion for Slavic brethren, should announce a general amnesty for UkroReich troopers who lay down their arms and accept internment in Russia for the duration of the conflict i.e. the surrendered troops will be protected by Russia and will not be exchanged or be recycled back into the conflict by the UkroReich.
I suspect such an offer / announcement will result in the complete collapse of the Potemkin army that constitutes the UAF.
The announcement should include the declaration that any officer who sends men to their certain deaths in this way for the sole purpose of achieving an "improved" Z negotiating position at the coming NATOstan conference, is guilty of murder and will be subject to prosecution at the close of the SMO.
This declaration would extend to the parquet military staffs of the NATOstan nations and to their civilian overlords up to, and including, Bidet, Blinken, Sullivan, Nuland. They are all, the entire rotten stinking cabal, equally complicit in these senseless deaths.
I don't see how any competent officer can view this unending slaughter and continue to proudly bear arms as a military professional. I suspect there will be an increased number of refusals, resignations, retirements, from within the NATOstan military. Fighting a war is one thing. Being complicit in the death of uniformed civilians for the sake of Z prestige is not war - it is murder.
DIMA SOURCE:
https://youtu.be/i5MX_z1aSQM
The Ukrainians Faced New Challenges Before The Offensive. Military Summary And Analysis 2023.06.16
>>Originally posted to the Dead Thread<<
>>Reposted in response to karlof1 response<<
Posted by: Sushi | Jun 17 2023 16:19 utc | 7
Thanks B for your hard work.
MSM says Kiev was bombed while the African delegation was there. Is this true?
Posted by: axl | Jun 17 2023 16:22 utc | 8
is us donating 50 atacms pods, or 50 atacms programmed himars vehicles?
us donated himars are not set up to fire atacms.
the supplied atacms pods would either come with new programmed himars, mlrs tracked launch vehicles or us technicians would go in and modify the ukraine himars to fire the atacms pod.
atacms pod is two larger rockets, with heavier throw, and range over 200 km.
being long range ballistic they are likely subject to interception.
more expensive effort to prove long range bombing has a pay of!
and usa wil identify, fix and coordinate fires by ar=tacms!
Posted by: paddy | Jun 17 2023 16:24 utc | 9
Will Russia take Odessa and agree to an armistice?
Posted by: herb davis | Jun 17 2023 16:25 utc | 10
West always says "All options are on table "including nuke use .west threatens nuke use against non nuclear states from 3rd world too
But Russiaakways says "no option is on table" russian vague threats are so stupidly unbelievable that her enemy think nothing of that and get encouraged to push the envelope .
That will see the downfall of Russia soon .with traitors like sergie Lavrov and Pesk , Russia is doomed.
Posted by: Sam | Jun 17 2023 16:26 utc | 11
Posted by: Susan | Jun 17 2023 16:16 utc | 6
I agree.
I also believe that if multi=polarity fully manifests that it should establish it own investigate body or court to investigate acts which constitute crimes against humanity or egregious acts of state terrorism.
RF has sought an investigation of the dam failure. There is evidence of significant ongoing threat of disease to all those displaced downstream who have lost access to fresh uncontaminated water supplies. There has been no western response or expression of concern.
Much the same arises with respect to the NordStream destruction and to the announced intent of US to introduce DU ammunition into the conflict. This will do little but destroy/poison some of the best agricultiral land in the world and drive up food prices for the global poor who will be forced to compete with the wealthy Former Colonial Powers (FCP) for basic survival foodstuffs.
Putin agreed to the grain deal with the expectation the cargos would go to poor country customers. Instead the majority of the UkroReich shipments reportedly went to European ports / customers.
There needs to be an independent body, not aligned with the interests of the FCP, to investigate /ajudicate these issues.
Cheers!
Posted by: Sushi | Jun 17 2023 16:32 utc | 12
There are a few very smart posters here and I enjoy reading what you have to say. The rest of you just blather nonsense. The US and their little poodles are being isolated internationally. This conflict has sped that process up. If you honestly think a bunch of psychopaths can out smart the Russians and Chinese, you're smart as a stick. The west is going downhill faster than they'll ever admit. The yelling and screaming and posturing is complete desperation. They can't win and they know it. They'll keep fighting until they run out of Ukrainians, and mercenaries and anyone else stupid enough to be brainwashed by the USG. Going to get worse before it gets better but it will get better. For the entire planet.
Posted by: Watzov | Jun 17 2023 16:33 utc | 13
Russia will not agree to any armistice in which whatever remains of Ukraine has anything more than what's needed to equip a police force. A genuine demilitarized zone in which not a single NATO officer is present. The US will never agree to any armistice of that sort because it is a total capitulation for NATO as an alliance.
Therefore the war will last until Ukraine is broken to the degree that whatever local power players remain simply refuse to fight and accept capitulation regardless of the consequences coming from the US. In other words, they'll have to be more afraid of Russia than the US.
At this point the US will evacuate what loyalists it has to serve as a 'government in exile', where they will probably stay and never return. In that way the US will avoid capitulating despite the objective defeat of NATO on the battlefield. Russia will install a puppet government that will, given enough time, become the sole legitimate government by the virtue of de facto exercising power on whatever remains of Ukraine.
This is the only reasonable way I see the war ending.
Posted by: Plebs | Jun 17 2023 16:42 utc | 14
⚡️ Situation in the Orekhovo direction
We confirm reports of enemy activation in the 58th Army's defense area - in the direction of Stepovoye-Pyatikhatki and near Malaya Tokmachka. As reported, since the morning actively carried out the supply of personnel. Then AFU units with armored vehicles went on the offensive, where they ran into minefields and were subjected to massive artillery fire. A Bradley BMP was left on the mines, as well as a demining vehicle based on an MT-LB. Artillery and anti-tank guided missile systems destroyed over 10 BMPs and five tanks, including Leopards. According to our information, the 58th Army used high-precision Krasnopol ammunition in that battle.
In total on the Orekhovo direction the enemy lost 11 tanks, 15 BMPs and 10 AFVs. In terms of personnel: at least 150 casualties and in the area of 400 wounded.
As you may have seen, other sources report even higher losses to the AFU. Maybe our data just hasn't been updated yet. The unlucky 128 OgshbR, almost completely reassembled after the battles in the Kherson direction last year, took part in the meat assault. Sources from the field report that the Ukrop literally pelted our positions with meat. It has enough live force, and even with such losses the offensive potential is still great. Still, we hope that after such losses the Ukrainian mobiks will draw appropriate conclusions - such assaults are a one-way road for them.
@voin_dv
https://t.me/sharednewsby/4894
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 17 2023 16:44 utc | 15
So-ho, Jens the Jerk may be extended as NATO sicko-general. He is, apparently, an effective leader. This must mean that Schmo Joe prefers this particular clot to hold his wrinkled pizzle. Imagine trusting Boris, Ursula, etc..
Posted by: DilNir | Jun 17 2023 16:47 utc | 16
Just saw an interview between Aleks from Black Mountain Analysis and Larry Johnson.
Very impressive.
Especially about the Ukrainian offensive and some intelligence topics.
https://bmanalysis.substack.com/p/interview-series-part-3
Posted by: Thomas | Jun 17 2023 16:49 utc | 17
@ Sushi | Jun 17 2023 16:19 utc | 7
I don't see how any competent officer can view this unending slaughter and continue to proudly bear arms as a military professional. I suspect there will be an increased number of refusals, resignations, retirements, from within the NATOstan military. Fighting a war is one thing. Being complicit in the death of uniformed civilians for the sake of Z prestige is not war - it is murder.
It is true and justly so. For its military and a very naive population, Ukraine is a hypno-Toad, masquerading as a Virgin Mary.
For the entire NATO, in the future, time will come to answer many things amongst all other crimes they commited.
This one might just fit to the current battlefields and policies:
“Pathetic Earthlings, hurling your bodies out into the void, without the slightest inkling of who or what is out here. If you had known anything about the true nature of the universe, anything at all, you would've hidden from it in terror!”
An essence of RF's message to the West.
Swap characters where appropriate.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 16:51 utc | 18
Getting near the time when a Global Hawk drops out of the sky as an warning to Rivet Joint
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 17 2023 16:58 utc | 19
Ukraine ethnic cleansing Hungarian and Russian peons
Posted by: Sushi | Jun 17 2023 16:19 utc | 7
Totally agree with your points Sushi. Russians might drop leaflets laying out proposals and for surrender and how to do it, use drones. Just a thought...
Posted by: migueljose | Jun 17 2023 17:03 utc | 20
Ukrainian soldiers would do well to consider the US track record in supporting allies and supposed friends. The vassals are lionized for as long as they keep smashing their heads against walls. When defeat finally arrives, the attitude changes. Then it becomes a blame-fest -- and guess who gets to be the scapegoat.
A Position Of Strength is the NATO mantra. In other words, the Taliban were Permitted to win.Or perhaps, fight them there rather than here fell out of fashion.
The former generals sloganeering for Kiev are ALL making money off their (heh-heh) support. Remarkable.
Posted by: DilNir | Jun 17 2023 17:14 utc | 21
Military Summary telegram channel reports....
https://t.me/militarysummary/2223
Judging by the way the Armed Forces of Ukraine have been advancing in Zaporozhye and in the South-Donetsk direction for the past few days, the tactics of the ground forces of Ukraine have changed significantly.
• If in the first days of the Armed Forces of Ukraine actively created the illusion of a mass offensive with forces of more than a battalion, then at the moment only small platoon groups, up to 30-40 people maximum, are thrown into battle. This is especially noticeable in the battles in the triangle of Pyatikhatki - Stepovoye - Malye Shcherbaki. In this direction, the Armed Forces of Ukraine have the biggest losses at the moment.
• A significant part of the heavy equipment, including Leopard tanks and Bradley infantry fighting vehicles, is assigned to the rear for regrouping, repair and, apparently, drawing up a new attack plan.
• Significant losses of senior commanders, capable of daring breakthroughs to the front line, affect morale: among the mobilized Ukrainians, there are more and more refuseniks and "crossbows", as was already the case in Artyomovsk.
• The history of field repair problems repeats itself: it is almost impossible to quickly fix the malfunctions of infantry fighting vehicles and tanks. There are practically no evacuation vehicles (BREM) - serviceable equipment arrives at the place of the damaged equipment, and the whole group is covered by artillery fire from the rear of the Surovikin Line.
• Apparently, the Armed Forces of Ukraine were ordered to protect foreign armored vehicles, so mobile groups are increasingly introduced into battle on MaxxPro and Mastiff armored vehicles, unsuitable for frontal attacks. Due to the imbalance in the use of light equipment, the losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine over the past 72 hours have increased to 880-930 killed and wounded per day.
• Territorial advance is zero. As soon as the Armed Forces of Ukraine occupy certain positions, the entire square is covered with artillery, and at night the positions are worked out by Ka-52 and Mi-28NM helicopters. After that, the Armed Forces of Ukraine roll back to their original positions without the opportunity to gain a foothold.
I've just seen footage of Russian FPV drones destroying Ukie armour behind the front...
Kamikaze drone is an apt description...
As I reported earlier, which B saw fit to eliminate...
The AI enabled neural networked Lancet Drone is impossible to jam because it uses terrain mapping and visual target recognition in autonomous mode to destroy selected targets in a search area...
That is a game changer....
INDY
Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | Jun 17 2023 17:15 utc | 22
I should think being wounded as a Ukro is a death sentence. I cannot imagine Ukraine has any health care system or medication or prosthetics now.
Much be a lot of crippled ignored or suicidal.
This must be a society fragmenting along many fissures-
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 17 2023 17:15 utc | 23
Are there numbers for Ukrainian troops sent to NATO training grounds who have done a bunk and have claimed refugee status. Are those who think better of being meat being sent back in irons and under guard? Not Victims of Yalta, but how about Victims of Warsaw?
Posted by: DilNir | Jun 17 2023 17:20 utc | 24
People accurately declare Washington and NATO are not prepared for a conventional war with Russia. It's the truth and everybody knows it.
But people draw false conclusions from this truth. They apply rationality and logic where there is none to be found. Name a single rational or logical step that Washington and NATO have taken since they started provoking this crisis. I don't think you can. All the ignorance, arrogance, incompetence and greed has twisted the minds of western leaders who actually believe it is their divine right to rule the world and they will do anything, no matter how irrational or illogical in their attempt to maintain their power. The more their power slips through their fingers, the more irrational they will become.
They will convince themselves that air power is enough...just like sanctions were supposed to be enough to bring down Russia. They will convince themselves all they have to do to win is show Russia that their commitment to victory is total and Russia will fold like a house of cards. Of course they couldn't be more wrong but they will believe it anyways.
In short, they are going to take the world right into the abyss. Without something to drastically make these lunatics change course, they will steam themselves and us into the eye of the perfect storm.
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 17 2023 17:20 utc | 25
Posted by: Sam | Jun 17 2023 16:26 utc | 11
Russia is led by a rational, bright leader who is cognizant where the future is heading. The USSA is led by a senile, arrogant grifter who can't lace his skates.
I am starting to think the U.S. has fallen into the Bear Trap, not of their own direct making, but cleverly laid out by Russia.
The entire American/Western Empire is founded in the U.S. dollar and debt. And emotional Americans and Europeans voluntarily agreed to seppuku their Financial bellies.
Posted by: kupkee | Jun 17 2023 17:22 utc | 26
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 17 2023 17:20 utc | 25
#############
The most dangerous animal is a cornered one. That is why Sun Tzu advised always leaving an opponent an avenue for withdrawal.
I suspect the multipolar world has already been testing whether or not leaving an avenue for withdrawal is an effective strategy when dealing with psychopaths and emotionally damaged people.
I suspect it will not. Ideology is so powerful, it can trump self-interest. See the many people who mutilate their own bodies and the bodies of their children because an ideology prescribes it. There is no reasoning with people like that.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 17:30 utc | 28
Interesting stuff it makes you wonder what the goal was, what of who was the target.
"On June sixteenth, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation launched a group strike with high-precision long-range sea- and air-based weapons on one of the decision-making centers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The purpose of the strike has been achieved. The designated object is hit," the report says.
What exactly was the goal, the military department did not disclose."
https://ria.ru/20230617/spetsooperatsiya-1878872630.html
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 17 2023 17:40 utc | 29
@ Paul Greenwood | Jun 17 2023 16:58 utc | 19
Getting near the time when a Global Hawk drops out of the sky as a warning to Rivet Joint
Well, those are irritating and must be brought down, sure.
They have been warned many times. Issue is that all manned ISR assets as Rivet Joint are followed by 2 Eurofighters or F-whatever.
Not that this is an issue, but still.
Also, they are very often EW-ed, too, but definitely not enough Peresvets there.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 17:40 utc | 30
LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 17:30 utc | 28
You're more right than you know — self-interest is liberal capitalist ideology.
In fact, all values, ultimately, are other people's neuroses that we are exhorted to place above life itself, that we are expected to kill and die for, to be seen killing and dying for, and to be seen wanting to kill and die for. It's a stupid game, really.
Posted by: Concerned Citizen | Jun 17 2023 17:42 utc | 31
Hang onto your hats European, American/UK citizens Ukraine wants to make you pay and pay big time.
"Ukraine will present in London an ambitious plan to become an energy hub of Europe until 2050, for the implementation of the restoration program, the Kiev authorities will request $ 400 billion, writes Forbes.ua."
https://ria.ru/20230617/khab-1878894024.html
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 17 2023 17:43 utc | 32
Republicofscotland | Jun 17 2023 17:40 utc | 29
According to Tsargrad.tv
ISKANDER CAN HANDLE THIS: THE RUSSIANS COULD HAVE COVERED A NETWORK OF BUNKERS IN KIEV
The Russians may have covered a network of bunkers in Kiev that housed high-ranking Ukrainian military officials and their foreign handlers. Analysts assume that Iskander-M has once again successfully worked out.
Today it became known about a powerful high-precision strike on another decision-making center in Ukraine. Officially, the Russian Ministry of Defense informed about this, leaving a laconic message in Telegram.:
On June 16, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation launched a group strike with high-precision long-range sea-and air-based weapons against one of the decision-making centers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. The goal of the strike has been achieved. The assigned object is hit.
Конечно, многим бы хотелось узнать все подробности, вплоть до адреса места удара, кто находился в этом центре принятия решений и прочие детали... Но очевидно, что официально детали сейчас не сообщат: в условиях сражений и продолжающихся боёв любое лишнее слово может сыграть на руку противнику и если не помочь ему, то дать возможность перевернуть всё, как говорится, с ног на голову.
Однако некоторые подробности всё же просочились в информационное пространство. По данным ресурса Readovka со ссылкой на источник в Минобороны России, удар по центру принятия решений, о котором сегодня сообщило ведомство, был нанесён на несколько километров севернее Киева. Там располагался военный штаб Вооружённых сил Украины. В момент нанесения удара в нём находились высокопоставленные сотрудники ВСУ и ГУР Украины.
By the way, analysts of the publication consider as one of the options a hypothetical blow inflicted on this center yesterday afternoon. In this case, there is an explanation for why eyewitnesses did not report arrivals. The target could be some kind of underground structure. The Iskander-M ballistic missiles most likely used in yesterday's attack are armed with a penetrating concrete-piercing warhead, so they can handle such a target.
And then it becomes clear why the representatives of the African delegation did not hear any blows: if the Iskander warhead was set to explode with a dive, the sound from the arrival could be much quieter than with a standard detonation on the surface. Under certain conditions, it might not even break out at all or be confused with the sound of Ukrainian air defense systems.
By the way, we considered the issue of underground shelters earlier. Just at the beginning of June, a scandal broke out in Kiev due to the fact that shelters for citizens were closed. Kiev Mayor Vitali Klitschko had to react to this, but he did not solve the problem.
But the Ukrainian elite knows where to hide if anything happens. Bunkers for senior officials in the capital of Ukraine have remained since Soviet times.
Head of the telegram channel "Ukraine. " Konstantin Kevorkian in an interview with Tsargrad reported that the network of bunkers near Kiev was conceived with the expectation of military operations, including.
Surely all important objects related to the functioning of the then Ukrainian SSR, and now the Ukrainian state, are equipped with such shelters. And we know for sure that there are similar bunkers on Bankova Street, that is, the current president's place of residence, there are underground communications connecting the Verkhovna Rada, the Council of Ministers and the Presidential Administration,
- he said.
As for ordinary people, they will be sent to the metro as a last resort, and of course they will not be devoted to the "secret" about the network of bunkers.
I also suspect that there are a number of such shelters, which are not well known, because they are a state secret,
- the expert admitted.
Returning to the question of where exactly the Russian missile hit the day before, you can guess for a very long time. But if we recall past successful strikes on enemy decision-making centers, we can pay attention-who will disappear after Zaluzhny and Budanov? Recently, "wares" have become a trend in Ukraine.
Posted by: Carlsson on the roof | Jun 17 2023 17:51 utc | 33
https://t.me/ghostnewschat/71938
"1 year later we find out what happened.Russia signed a neutrality treaty with ukrainian delegation in Turkiye, one of the conditions was that Russia withdrew from Kiev, Sumy and Chernigov, which they did. Afterwards kiev threw the treaty into the bin and declared victory."
So after
NATO expansion
Iraq invasion
Libya bombing
Minsk 1
Minsk 2
Iran nuclear deal abandonment
INFT abandonment
Free skies treatment abandonment
Putin was taken to the cleaners by his Western "partners" once again.
The 5D Chess Master, ladies and gentlemen. Maybe the 5555555D.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 17 2023 17:54 utc | 34
I didn't write this.
I'm not sure who did but its an excellent summary of the obscenity that has occurred
"NATO are supporting this war because their senior partner is run by neocon balloons who refuse to accept that American global hegemony is over. If you think Putin is bad, do some research on Antony Blinken, Victoria Nuland, William Kristol, the Kagans...they all share the same view: anyone who threatens American global preponderance is a threat that should be eliminated. If that means sacrificing an entire nation for the benefit of America, then they'll happily trade bullets for blood.
Moreover, sending men on a suicidal counter offensive to give the MS media something positive to write about is repugnant and should be condemned by everyone. There's footage online of young Ukrainian men with their arms and jaws blown off by Russian artillery. They're not fighting for Ukraine. They're fighting for the American neocons and their insane quest to cling onto global primacy."
Posted by: jpc | Jun 17 2023 17:58 utc | 35
Russia is led by a rational, bright leader
Maybe. I think Russia is directed by a STAVKA.........Putin knows he is mortal and leaving WAR to fate is not good statesmanship - hence STAVKA
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 17 2023 17:59 utc | 36
Carlsson on the roof (33).
Thank you for that response.
I recall a couple of high ranking Israeli commanders killed in Syria when Russian bombers did the same in taking out a supposedly ISIS base.
Posted by: Republicofscotland | Jun 17 2023 18:01 utc | 37
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 17 2023 17:54 utc | 34
##############
I think the fact that Putin is a Christian influences heavily how ruthless he is. And without his Christianity, he'd be just another autocrat.
In order to have peace, someone has to be willing to extend goodwill first. That may be taken advantage of. Still, someone has to go first and take those risks.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 18:02 utc | 38
@DilNir | Jun 17 2023 16:47 utc | 16
So-ho, Jens the Jerk may be extended as NATO sicko-general. He is, apparently, an effective leader. This must mean that Schmo Joe prefers this particular clot to hold his wrinkled pizzle. Imagine trusting Boris, Ursula, etc..No surprise, they have Jens by the balls since 2011. He is not an effective leader, he is an effective quisling that does what his master orders. Nobody really wants to administer the downfall of NATO, so Jens it has to be.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 17 2023 18:03 utc | 39
Migueljose ( Jun 17 2023 17:03 utc | 20 ) about leaflets:
They supposedly already do this on the front. The Russians print and drop leaflets looking like US dollar bills on one side (clever! 50% chance it lands that side up) with instructions for surrender on the other (hopefully including a warning about the risks of being attacked by "their own").
Read that either here on Sputnik or RT.
Maybe someone has more?
Posted by: Sunny Runny Burger | Jun 17 2023 18:06 utc | 40
Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 17 2023 17:59 utc | 36
###############
Most nations are run by a cabal of elites, financial, military, or both.
The idea of the "strong man" leader who does it all on his own is Hollywood-esque fiction. It does give the citizenry a focal point for their dissatisfaction, allowing the elites to operate in relative obscurity.
How many Americans know the name Victoria Nuland? If you told me it was 5%, I'd doubt it. And yet, one could argue she is more powerful globally than Joe Biden, who is the target (as he is meant to be) of so much energy and critique.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 18:08 utc | 41
There are some interesting posts here. Indeed, we seem to be living in parallel dimensions, one where Russia is on the verge of collapse, and one where the Ukraine is. My suspicion is the latter, but it's really hard to tell. For now.
That said, for all you Russophile's out there, one is warned that the Ukrainians/Western Elites have been nothing if not vicious, clever, and effective. They did hold off Russia for over a year, yes? And remember the Ukrainian offensive against Kherson: for some time it looked like the Ukrainians were bashing their heads in against the Russian defenses... until they weren't. It's not over until it's over.
But even if the Ukrainians really are losing, the western elites may well decide to "overturn the chessboard." The could take out the Kerch Bridge, this time permanently. Maybe use nerve gas on a wide scale. Give the Ukrainians enough long range missiles to take out every Russian oil refinery west of the Urals - and bait Russia into attacking the western powers directly. Stage a massive false flag attack and get NATO directly involved. Or go whole scorched earth: taking out that one dam will cut off water to Crimea and devastate agriculture in the area, and there is a lot of other things they can do to make Russia's holding of Ukrainian territory ruinously expensive. You get the idea. Does anyone really think that the utterly amoral, selfish, greedy, callous western elites are going to take a defeat lying down?
Posted by: TG | Jun 17 2023 18:09 utc | 42
Why Russia is not parking catched Leopards & Bradley in fron of German & US embassy in moscow?
The operation can be carried out by a russian NGO or group of anti nazi artists
Similar operation the nazis performed in Berlin & Amaterdam
Western agencies always hiding their operations behind NGOs
It would be big PR blow into the western nazi faces
Posted by: Miau | Jun 17 2023 18:11 utc | 43
People accurately declare Washington and NATO are not prepared for a conventional war with Russia. It's the truth and everybody knows it.But people draw false conclusions from this truth. They apply rationality and logic where there is none to be found. Name a single rational or logical step that Washington and NATO have taken since they started provoking this crisis. I don't think you can. All the ignorance, arrogance, incompetence and greed has twisted the minds of western leaders who actually believe it is their divine right to rule the world and they will do anything, no matter how irrational or illogical in their attempt to maintain their power. The more their power slips through their fingers, the more irrational they will become.
They will convince themselves that air power is enough...just like sanctions were supposed to be enough to bring down Russia. They will convince themselves all they have to do to win is show Russia that their commitment to victory is total and Russia will fold like a house of cards. Of course they couldn't be more wrong but they will believe it anyways.
In short, they are going to take the world right into the abyss. Without something to drastically make these lunatics change course, they will steam themselves and us into the eye of the perfect storm.
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 17 2023 17:20 utc | 25
I agree. The USA is not behaving rationally and it won't admit defeat while it still has cards to play, even if those cards are terrible.
The objective fact that NATO can't win won't stop the USA from sending NATO in. But.. doing so will require a false flag (I'm calling it the Nuland Surprise) to get the citizens on board. Something scary like WMDs. I wrote a long post, ~6,000 words, on why the USA is behaving this way.
Our source in the OP said that the General Staff, together with MI-6, is preparing a series of strikes with long-range Storm Shadow missiles at military airfields where Russian helicopters are located.At the moment, the Armed Forces of Ukraine are suffering heavy losses due to the work of Russian aviation, which is quietly destroying our heavy equipment.
https://t.me/rezident_ua/18350
Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:24 utc | 45
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 17 2023 17:20 utc | 25
But people draw false conclusions from this truth. They apply rationality and logic where there is none to be found. Name a single rational or logical step that Washington and NATO have taken since they started provoking this crisis. I don't think you can
Maybe the problem is that actually they're not the lunatics here. Maybe the problem instead is that your ability to judge what constitutes rationality is misguided.
Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jun 17 2023 18:25 utc | 46
Due to the destruction of the Kakhovka dam, an ecological disaster associated with a sharp desalination of water awaits the Black Sea. At the same time, the coasts of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria will suffer, where polluted water will fall.So, according to the Minister of Health Viktor Lyashko, the water in the Dnieper is polluted 28,000 times more than the norm. Moreover, the entire water area below the Kakhovka dam, as well as the Ukrainian coast of the Black Sea, is unsuitable for use and swimming.
"There was an excess of 28,000 times over certain indicators. Therefore, bathing, fishing, you can not drink this water, water cattle. When a person bathes in such water, a disease can potentially occur. Treatment facilities have switched to emergency disinfection regimes. Monitoring has been tightened quality of water in the water supply network, so as not to miss the outbreak," Lyashko said.
At the same time, the minister did not specify the dangerous diseases: "If I now list all the threatening diseases, we will not have enough time today - parasitic, viral, bacteriological." Now the Ministry of Health cannot predict when the Black Sea and the Dnieper will be cleared. And this is not surprising - in recent years, the Ukrainian healthcare system and anti-epidemic control have completely degraded.
However, in addition to an environmental disaster, the destruction of the dam of the Kakhovskaya hydroelectric power station will have a huge impact on global food security and will inevitably lead to an increase in food prices. In particular, the UN warns about such a development of events.
It should be noted that the break of the dam immediately caused concern in the markets due to a possible disruption in the supply of grain and sunflower oil from Ukraine. The very next day after the catastrophe, world wheat prices rose by 3% - to $6.4 per bushel, corn - by 1%, oats - by 0.8%.
After the correction, wheat is worth about $6.23. And we must understand that the rise in food prices in the world will inevitably lead to an increase in prices in Ukraine (the country's economy is open, and Ukraine will definitely import food inflation).
https://t.me/rezident_ua/18353
Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:26 utc | 47
🇺🇸⚡️🇬🇧 American DeepState exponentially destroys JohnsonFormally, the former prime minister was forced to resign as a member of the House of Commons for lying to the country's parliament about his parties on Downing Street during the covid lockdown.
Circus, just 🤷
In reality, this is a demonstrative reprisal for the demolition of the US geopolitical strategy. Johnson PERSONAL:
✅ dissuaded Ze from negotiations before the invasion;
✅ dissuaded Zelensky from abandoning the Istanbul agreements and continuing the war;
✅contributed to an increase in the degree of conflict;
✅ Did NOT allow the US plans to agree on a truce to come true.
The states care about China. They do not benefit from long-term costly support for Ukraine without obvious profits for them.
For this, Johnson lost his post in favor of the accommodating Sunak. To do this, the States even put the UK financial market on the brink of collapse.
But simply replacing the arrogant Johnson is not enough for them. Those who go against the US DeepState are severely punished.
For example, did you know that one of the most influential Kennedy clans in the country lost not only the president? There was also Senator Robert Kennedy, who was shot dead 5 years after his brother. Then there were two more air and one car accidents, mysterious deaths while skiing ... the Kennedy clan once challenged DeepState.
That's about the same thing happening now with Johnson. It is indicatively reset to zero so that the rest would not be familiar.
In this regard, one can even sympathize with Zelensky. He also repeatedly put the States on a stretch and broke their plans. The payback for this, too, will surely come sometime🧩
https://t.me/ZeRada1/14261
The saddest thing in this situation is that politicians have turned our country into a battlefield in the confrontation of geopolitical blocs.Johnson tried to save his career and wanted to become the second Churchill, that's why he needed a war in Ukraine, and what did our country get?
• We are not admitted to NATO
• Ruined economy
• In the EU, no one will take us
• Taxes and tariffs increased
• Hundreds of thousands dead
• Corporations buy land and resources for pennies
• Ordinary citizens have fewer rights and freedoms
• Our country has no futureThe list goes on, but what's the point?
https://t.me/rezident_ua/18354
Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:29 utc | 48
Our source reports that the Bakhmutovskaya meat grinder caused great damage to the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the loss of a huge number of "snipers" in this direction.There were a lot of snipers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the houses and on the roofs, who went through more than one battle, but almost all of them died after the arrival of guided bombs.
Snipers are not particularly important during an offensive, but in protracted urban battles, a sniper is a "trump card" against an opponent's assault groups.
Everyone in the army considers the Bakhmutov meat grinder a mistake by the Office of the President, which can be “highly expensive” in strategic terms.
https://t.me/legitimniy/15645
Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:31 utc | 49
Zelensky will attend the NATO summit.Ukraine will not be accepted into NATO itself, as we immediately got inside. We would like to say that they will not be accepted into the EU either - these are fairy tales.
The Western lobby and Bankovaya agreed that they would create a NATO council for show, which would play a purely informational and demonstrative role. ZeErmak wants to sell to the domestic consumer as a win, but this is a complete slander.
The first meeting of the council will be held at the NATO summit in Vilnius, which will be held on July 11-12. They will talk, take photos and leave.
The source adds that Ze wanted to send Ukrainian Foreign Minister Kuleba or Prime Minister Shmyhal instead of himself, under the pretext of a “difficult situation” at the front. But they explained to him that it’s better not to do this, the consequences will be bad ...
https://t.me/legitimniy/15646
Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:32 utc | 50
The entire American/Western Empire is founded in the U.S. dollar and debt. And emotional Americans and Europeans voluntarily agreed to seppuku their Financial bellies.
Posted by: kupkee | Jun 17 2023 17:22
...and thats exactly what is all about. Forget all the military and moral stuff. The US is depend of selling debt. Otherwise the Dollar will enter Hyperinflation due the defecit spending policy.
Russia knows that. They just have to maintain there meatgrinder up and running and sit'n'wait untill the US is finishing itself, unable to see the truth. Like Goebbels in Feb45: "der Endsieg ist nahe" (the final victory)
One must understand, that this is not about "how many tanks xxz got destroyed", but if the whole US comes down. The West also are conpromised by the Gaga-Schwab-Transformation dream, which is effectivly makes the West defendless. Thanks Klaus, great Plan...
Posted by: ableman | Jun 17 2023 18:32 utc | 51
The Office of the President asked many times Western countries to increase the transfer of kamikaze drones, but was refused.Deliveries are underway, but their number does not give the Armed Forces an advantage in the UAV, which was in 2022.
This makes it necessary to purchase civilian drones and remake them, but they cannot cover the entire request for the needs of the army, plus this approach interferes with the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the unit training case. After all, the “flight fleet” is so diverse that it is impossible to organize a centralized training of new operators.The risk is that the Russian Federation is now focusing on the development and implementation of these technologies, which in a long game can have a painful effect on the entire military campaign.
https://t.me/legitimniy/15651
Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:34 utc | 52
jpc (quoting someone else) stated (#35):
“ If you think Putin is bad, do some research on Antony Blinken, Victoria Nuland, William Kristol, the Kagans...they all share the same view: anyone who threatens American global preponderance is a threat that should be eliminated. If that means sacrificing an entire nation for the benefit of America, then they'll happily trade bullets for blood.”
The reality, however, is that the neocons care about the USA only insofar as they can continue to suck the life out of it for the benefit of the international Zionist cabal.
Posted by: Ciaran | Jun 17 2023 18:35 utc | 53
The voyage of the African delegation to Ukraine and Russia brought nothing and could not bring anything.Both sides are confident that they are winning.
We are more inclined that this war will end not with peace agreements, but with capitulation.
Not Putin, not Zelensky, did not support the plan of African countries.
The real treaty/surrender, which the parties will sign once, will not be similar to all the current proposed options.
Such voyages are more needed for the attempts of international players to express themselves.
https://t.me/legitimniy/15654
Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:35 utc | 54
DEC 2023
ZCZ3
OPT
597'6
+23'2 (+4.05%)
574'4
573'4
598'0
572'4
276,805
16:39:00 CT
16 Jun 2023
MAR 2024
ZCH4
OPT
604'0
+21'6 (+3.74%)
582'2
580'6
604'2
580'2
36,875
16:38:13 CT
16 Jun 2023
MAY 2024
ZCK4
OPT
605'2
+19'6 (+3.37%)
585'4
584'0
605'4
583'6
13,106
16:37:48 CT
16 Jun 2023
JUL 2024
ZCN4
OPT
603'2
+18'2 (+3.12%)
585'0
583'2
603'6
583'2
14,073
16:39:04 CT
16 Jun 2023
Posted by: T S | Jun 17 2023 18:39 utc | 55
Palestinians be damned.
" Israel and Russia announced the settlement Friday of a property dispute that will see Russia opening a consular section in west Jerusalem, a move Israel hailed as a diplomatic victory.
The Israeli foreign ministry confirmed the deal, describing it as a "political success in strengthening Jerusalem's status by opening a branch of the Russian embassy in Jerusalem."
The agreement showed the success of Israel's "efforts to increase the number of diplomatic representations in Jerusalem, the capital of Israel," the ministry added. "
" Israel welcomes decision calling the move a diplomatic achievement in line with its efforts to increase the number of foreign missions in West Jerusalem. "
Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 18:43 utc | 56
Firefly @5
Hope you're right, as I suspect you are.
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 17 2023 18:44 utc | 57
Paul Greenwood @23
Wounding is either a death sentence or a passage to immortality, as one's organs are harvested to prolong the lives of the Oligarchy's most powerful...
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 17 2023 18:49 utc | 58
Inkan1969 | Jun 17 2023 18:25 utc | 46
I see you were unable to name one.
Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 17 2023 18:49 utc | 59
@ Shocked | Jun 17 2023 18:43 utc | 56
I see that as not an issue.
The closest explanation comes from Wikipedia:
Most countries support that Jerusalem should be the future capital of both Israel and Palestine;[6] this position has been endorsed by the United Nations,[7][8] the European Union,[9][10] and individual countries such as France.[11] Russia, among other countries, already recognizes East Jerusalem as the capital of Palestine, and West Jerusalem as the capital of Israel.[12]The majority of United Nations (UN) member states hold the view that the final status of Jerusalem should be resolved through negotiation, and have therefore favored locating their embassies to Israel in Tel Aviv, prior to a final status agreement.
I think, that might be a smart move now supporting China's recent effort.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 18:49 utc | 60
" I see that as not an issue.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 18:49 utc | 60 "
Of course you dont because you're a 5d Putinphile but what will the Muslim and Arab world think ?
Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 18:54 utc | 61
Sushi | Jun 17 2023 16:02 utc | 3--
Here's the reply I made at Simplicius's to the issue of collaboration between Nazis and Zionists which is more global than the context of your idea but informs you of my thinking on the subject:
One needn't wonder as there's verifiable evidence of such past collusion. And there lies the Big Problem of allowing the Holocaust to be "owned" by one group of the many that were slaughtered. IMO, ethnically, Slavs were the #1 victim, which brings up another point: How to qualify/quantify the victims, many of whom didn't die in camps. IMO, the greatest victims quantifiably of WW2's Holocaust (the two IMO ought to be grouped together for what is Industrial War if not a Holocaust? Isn't that what's happening to the Ukies thanks to their NATO handlers?) were Slavs/Russians, not those professing the Hebrew religion, most of whom were Slavs. IMO, Putin's show of temper during his discussion with the war correspondents is directly related to historic reality since 1905, and particularly since 1933. One of the reasons I like Putin is he's unafraid of Truth--it can easily be lived with regardless of the horrors it holds. It's those who attempt to manipulate Truth to advance their agenda Putin abhors since it's dishonest and goes against God or Humanity's best interest which is what God IMO stands for. Note that Putin doesn't tolerate duplicity whatsoever; sloth, sloppiness, procrastination, and similar human frailties are forgivable, but not prevarication--All one really owns his one's honor, and that should never be forfeited.
The openly stated aim of the Nazis--all of them in Ukraine, Europe and the Outlaw US Empire--is to kill Russians and Russian speakers, 90+% of whom are Slavs. The "race war" predicted by Kaiser Wilhelm prior to the outbreak of WW1 for mastery of Europe "between the Teutons and the Slavs" and perpetuated by Nazi ideology in WW2 and now IMO is easy to see when one's eyes are opened to those facts. It's not just Class as some have written; it's ethnicity just as it was in Yugoslavia going back over 100 years to the conflicts prior to WW1 within the Hapsburg Empire. And as some are aware, the historic depth of this conflict is well over 1,000 years old. IMO, Putin is aware of the above, but is in a very difficult pickle. It appears a choice has finally been made to try and decapitate those driving the conflict within Ukraine, which means more political Nazis will be targeted. Putin came very close to saying Zelensky isn't Jewish, and Russia is fully aware of the horrors Zionists and Zionism is capable of--the collusion with Nazism wasn't at all accidental--it was done with a specific goal in mind.
The reality is civilians press-ganged into the military and shoved to the front still remain civilians under their exterior appearance making Russia an unwilling accomplice to NATO's genocide of Slavs. I have my own ideas of how to halt the process, but that's the subject for another comment.
"Such voyages are more needed for the attempts of international players to express themselves."
Once or twice a month these ukro channels have the right ideas. I read SA plan, it's nothing. At least they had no retarded ideas like Lula or Xi. Also, they asked for food like it's Putin's problem the grain deal isn't working for Africa, while SA is still in ICC trying to milk all cows. At the same time being strip searched and banned in Poland. The highlight of their careers in only two days
Posted by: rk | Jun 17 2023 18:58 utc | 63
@ Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:29 utc | 48
In reality, this is a demonstrative reprisal for the demolition of the US geopolitical strategy. Johnson PERSONAL:
That's a good one, let's blame it all on party-boy Boris, who made the US and Ukraine suffer. . . not
✅ dissuaded Ze from negotiations before the invasion;
✅ dissuaded Zelensky from abandoning the Istanbul agreements and continuing the war;
✅contributed to an increase in the degree of conflict;
✅ Did NOT allow the US plans to agree on a truce to come true.
So the US started the war and then planned on a truce? No.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 17 2023 18:59 utc | 64
Shocked | Jun 17 2023 18:43 utc | 56--
Given your further reply to whirlX @61, it's clear you're a troll.
@13 well the Chinese and russia governments are just as awful as the US one, but their power mongering ways are needed to cancel out the American empire.
With any luck they'll all collapse at the end and the earth can have thousands of nations right sized for optimum efficiency.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 17 2023 19:04 utc | 66
Don Bacon | Jun 17 2023 18:59 utc | 64--
It's a shame the rebuttal can't be given directly to the writer of that crap as Down South is merely the messenger. What is coming clear is the outlines of the Blame Game are now surfacing as we all know Neocons are never at fault for anything.
@Sushi | Jun 17 2023 16:19 utc | 7
If a Russian soldier is captured, even by the Ukrainian territorial forces, he is then handed over to the ASOV people who are very likely to torture and then kill the captured Russian soldier. So why must the Wagner and even then Chechen forces take prisoners? You must do onto others as others do onto you, else you deserve to lose. War is a killing field, on the killing field you are supposed to kill, its about survival, not about morals.
A commentator made a comment about how attack being the best form of defence is not correct, as can be seen with Ukraine's offensive now. Attack is the best form of defence, if its applied early enough when the enemy is not much of a threat. For instance, the Israelis believe in killing the Palestinians before they are even born, because they would be a problem when they grow up. If its ok for the Israeli's who the Western world all worships, then its good enough for others. Whoever wins dictates the truth as to who was in the wrong in a particular conflict, its always been that way. So its better to win first and then worry about the mickey mouse morals afterwards.
Posted by: gT | Jun 17 2023 19:12 utc | 68
" Given your further reply to whirlX @61, it's clear you're a troll.
Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 17 2023 19:02 utc | 65 "
Care to address the issue at hand or do you just want to insult people ?
" At Palestine’s Expense
‘It is not exactly clear why Russia has decided to make such a move at a time when Moscow has been drawing closer and closer to the Arab position on Palestine,” Palestinian author and editor of The Palestine Chronicle Ramzy Baroud said, adding, “but it seems that a political barter has been achieved between Moscow and Tel Aviv, sadly, at the expense of the Palestinians.”
“Considering the growing affinity towards Russia in Palestine and the Arab world, and China’s stronger position in solidarity with the Palestinians, the Russian move, if not canceled, could turn Russia’s ‘political achievement’ into a major liability among Palestinians and throughout the Middle East,” Baroud added. "
Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:13 utc | 69
unimperator | Jun 17 2023 16:44 utc | 15
Re: Pyatikhatki
This may be old news by now. Anybody having a clue as to its truth?
"Four salvos of TOS Solntsepek were shot out down on Pyatikhatki.
Everything that was there is f*cked. A sweep is underway.
Earlier Turned on War reported that as of 17:50 (Moscow time) total enemy losses are minimum of a battalion (up to 450 men). Up to 900 wounded.
No breakthrough in the defence line."
(Slavyangrad) t.me/Slavyangrad/51111
Jun 17 at 17:55
SOURCE: (TWO MAJORS, link below, mediated from furhter source in Russian)
Запорожский фронт, район н.п. Пятихатки.:
Ув. Повернутые на войне сообщают, что на 17:50 общие потери противника только двухсотыми - минимум батальон (до 450 чел). До 900 - трёхсотыми.
Прорыва линии обороны - не допущено.
Два майора
t.me/dva_majors/18123
85.6K viewsedited
Jun 17 at 14:54
Posted by: @vec | Jun 17 2023 19:13 utc | 70
This could be a info-nuke: https://roloslavskiy.substack.com/p/belarus-reveals-hidden-sell-out-agenda/comments
Posted by: e | Jun 17 2023 19:21 utc | 71
@ Shocked | Jun 17 2023 18:54 utc | 61
Of course you dont because you're a 5d Putinphile but what will the Muslim and Arab world think ?
They are Putinophiles, too.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 19:23 utc | 72
Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:29 utc | 48
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 17 2023 18:59 utc | 64
I agree that the concept that Boris Johnson could use his persuasive powers to dissuade Zelensky from compromise in Istanbul WITHOUT US APPROVAL defies all our prior knowledge. Zelensky's people (if not himself) would know or check what USA thinks. All public records of Truss and Sunak are rabidly anti-Russian, so hardly a change in that direction. And all public records of Biden Administration corroborate that they wanted the war to "overextend Russia." Hard to tell who could conceive "victim Boris" fantasy and why. Perhaps, "sowing confusion and discord".
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 17 2023 19:25 utc | 73
73 - Johnson was probably the emissary of the USA when he encouraged Kiev not to do a deal with Russia in spring 2022. He himself has been eliminated due to British domestic politics, but there are other puppets who can take his place.
Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 17 2023 19:29 utc | 74
" They are Putinophiles, too.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 19:23 utc | 72 "
They wont be after this ill timed development.
Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:29 utc | 75
Our source in the OP said that the General Staff, together with MI-6, is preparing a series of strikes with long-range Storm Shadow missiles at military airfields where Russian helicopters are located.
...
Posted by: Down South | Jun 17 2023 18:24 utc | 45
Hard to believe that such important and precious air assets aren’t being operated from dispersed, improvised and varying locations. They’re helicopters, after all.
Posted by: anon2020 | Jun 17 2023 19:33 utc | 76
@ Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:29 utc | 75
From Reuters ticker:
Russia's embassy in Israel will open offices in Jerusalem to serve its consular section, as part of an agreement with the city, the embassy and Israel's foreign ministry said on Friday.
There are many Russian Jews living in Jerusalem.
I am sure UAE and Saudis will understand. Abbas might be happy too.
Why are you making anything out of it?
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 19:33 utc | 77
Having Russian Diplomats in Jerusalem will help protect the Christians in the area. Note, some 40% of the Arabs in the area covered in UNR181 are Christians.
Posted by: Exile | Jun 17 2023 19:36 utc | 78
" There are many Russian Jews living in Jerusalem.
I am sure UAE and Saudis will understand. Abbas might be happy too.
Why are you making anything out of it?
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 19:33 utc | 77 "
Your denial of reality is amazing. If you think the Muslim world will accept this you havent been paying attention.
Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:36 utc | 79
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 17 2023 16:00 utc | 2 "B1 simulated nuclear bombing runs across the Black Sea"
Got a link to some flight tacking site that shows this? B-1's aren't equipped to carry nuclear weapons, per the old treaties with Russia and Russia never complained that the US was cheating on this point (B-1's nuclear capability)
Posted by: Tim2 | Jun 17 2023 19:36 utc | 80
Don’t say the Kremlin doesn’t understand information war. After the self-inflicted gunshot wound to the chest by Polish authorities, and members of the delegation calling out the lack of an actual air raid they travel to Russia.
Almost certainly they’re treated as honored guests. There’s a long, informal conversation with Putin. Then it’s in the formal meeting that Putin shows the world the draft settlement agreement from Belarus/Turkiye. Obviously the decision makers of the world knew it existed. Making it public is different. And it puts the African leaders front and center because Putin chose them to use the actual document to make his case.
It’s the diplomatic equivalent of a sledgehammer.
It also makes the case that Russia will now go until Russia is satisfied. Combined with Putin publicly saying “screw them” about NATO, I think we can all conclude that attitudes have hardened significantly.
Posted by: Lex | Jun 17 2023 19:38 utc | 81
Posted by: Concerned Citizen | Jun 17 2023 17:42 utc | 31
###############
Increasingly, I put my faith in God and do my best to follow his dictates.
Thus far, he's not asked me to kill anyone, to mutilate myself, to lie, or to act without dignity and kindness.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 19:38 utc | 82
" Having Russian Diplomats in Jerusalem will help protect the Christians in the area. Note, some 40% of the Arabs in the area covered in UNR181 are Christians.
Posted by: Exile | Jun 17 2023 19:36 utc | 78 "
Justifying the unjustifiable is sad.
Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:39 utc | 83
They wont be after this ill timed development.
Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:29 utc | 75
##################
Regardless of which of the many sites and subjects I comment on, I am still amazed by the inability of most seemingly intelligent people to not understand that some people are playing a longer game, with different values than they have.
We have no idea what Putin is doing, and anyone who claims otherwise is not being honest.
The same applies to the SMO. Just because it doesn't make "sense" to us, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to someone else.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 19:45 utc | 85
Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:13 utc | 69, who left out the middle paragraph of The Palestine Chronicles' article 'In an Expected Move, Russia Decides to Open Jerusalem Ebassey Branch'.
You and Baroud seem to ignore, or simply do not believe the reported statement in the same article: "We believe that this step fully serves the interests of further strengthening friendly multifaceted relations between Russia and Israel, as well as goes in line with our country’s unchanging course towards a fair Middle East settlement,” the Russian Embassy said in a statement on Friday. which goes onto, perhaps, distance itself from his opinion. Here is how it is laid out;
According to Baroud,
“Russia has various properties in historic Palestine, obtained long before the establishment of the state of Israel, but the Russian ownership over these properties has been contested or outright rejected by Israel. It is possible that the so-called ‘political achievements’ involve a more flexible Israeli position on the issue in favor of handing Netanyahu a political win at a time that he is embattled.”
I think that is why Karlof1 might be correct in his assessment.
Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jun 17 2023 19:47 utc | 86
" Regardless of which of the many sites and subjects I comment on, I am still amazed by the inability of most seemingly intelligent people to not understand that some people are playing a longer game, with different values than they have.
We have no idea what Putin is doing, and anyone who claims otherwise is not being honest.
The same applies to the SMO. Just because it doesn't make "sense" to us, doesn't mean it doesn't make sense to someone else.
Posted by: LoveDonbass | Jun 17 2023 19:45 utc | 85 "
The whole point of this site is speculation as your comment described so well, In fact, thats all that people do here. Yet, when in comes to Israel and the Palestinians we're just supposed to automatically assume Putin's and Russia's good intentions and keep silent ? I find this very concerning.
Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 19:55 utc | 87
Watzov | Jun 17 2023 16:33 utc | 13
Those who rule the West may resort to biological and chemical warfare.
As long as they think *themselves* to be safe.
Posted by: Cynic | Jun 17 2023 19:56 utc | 88
Posted by: Ingolf Eide | Jun 17 2023 3:45 utc | 356
I've been following the dropbox you've set up on the start of the SMO.
That in connection with your recent comments on Putin's televised press conference:-
https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/06/ukraine-open-thread-2023-141/comments/page/4/#comments
Those comments showing a more accurate assessment of Putin's take on this war than the often lurid interpretations we're given by the Western press.
Fast moving events have absorbed attention recently but I still believe that that early period, the run-up to and the start of the SMO, is the most important period when it comes to apportioning responsibility for this war.
In contradiction to Mearsheimer's view, that this war was an inevitable response to Western pressure going back as far as the last century, I believe that the Russians were coping adequately with that Western pressure and would have continued to do so, but that they were forced against their will to military action by the immediate and urgent threat to the Donbass. This was, therefore, no "unprovoked" war. It was provoked by the West and it was provoked on the LoC in February 2022.
The Mearsheimer account is important background. It's put together with scholarly precision. It often shows Mearsheimer himself as a courageous man, braving the almost universal opposition he encounters in academic and wider circles. But Mearsheimer is wrong. Even from such information as was available at the time it was clear that the Russians didn't want this war, didn't need it, and were forced to take pre-emptive action only to prevent the threat to the Donbass. I don't want to flood your dropbox with references and links on that since there are commenters on b's site who are able to put together a better informed and perhaps more concise summary.
And "concise" is where it gets difficult. The Western story on this war, believed by almost all in the West, is more or less that Putin is a megalomaniac dictator bent on restoring old empire. That's concise and comprehensible enough in all conscience. We can grasp it easily, it fits with so many old prejudices and misconceptions, and it's a story that once accepted explains all and justifies all.
But to contest that story detailed and often complex background knowledge is needed. We need to know what's been happening in the Donbass for the past several years. We need to know what's been happening in Ukraine over that period.
And for me, who am particularly concerned with the European dimension, we need to go back to at least the pre-Maidan Association Agreement negotiations, those negotiations in which Mrs Merkel played so prominent a part. When it comes to the Maidan we need to look away a little from Mrs Nuland and her cookies and examine more what Lady Ashton or Verhofstadt were doing in Kiev at the time. We need to look at the 2019 Munich Security Conference and to see there the braggart and inflammatory role already assumed by HMG that was later to lead directly to Johnson's sabotage of the Istanbul peace talks.
We need to look at a subject now seldom mentioned in the Western press. In the light of recent statements from Merkel, Hollande and Poroshenko we can now reassess the true intentions of Germany and France, when those two countries put their credibility and weight behind the duplicitous farce the Europeans made of the only settlement that could have brought true peace to the Ukraine, Minsk 2.
And we need to look at Scholz, pursuing a policy indistinguishable from that of his predecessor; and a policy fully in accordance with that of Merz and Habeck for all his pretence of reluctance or moderation. I find Scholz, with his German and EU and, regrettably, his UK colleagues, to be a more central figure than Biden when looking at the reason for this war. That view is squarely in opposition to the view of most American commentators, who regard Scholz et al merely as American puppets. As with Syria, as elsewhere, we see the Europeans attempting to leverage American financial and military power for their own ends rather than being overborne by it. For, from where I'm sitting, and figuratively speaking, the White Tiger had more to do with this conflict than the Neocon Hawk.
We also need to look at Russian military action at the very start of the SMO. Because I believe that that military action does not show, as most Western journalists assume, any intention to conquer Ukraine as a preliminary to moving on to the Baltics or other nearby countries. It shows only a clear intention to nullify the threat to the Donbass and to put it out of the power of Kiev or the West to mount any more such threats.
Only when all this is put together can we examine the nature of the threat posed by the Kiev forces on the LoC in February 2022, the Russian assessment of that threat, and the Russian response.
A necessary aside. It's now the case that such examination is rendered more difficult because that original SMO has expanded considerably. We must not read back into what the Russians intended then what they may well, as a result of Western escalation, be intending now.
By now Russia should have been in the throes of a severe economic crisis, that leading to the fall of the Putin administration or, as some of the more hopeful thought, to the break-up of the RF itself. On the military side it had been expected that the quick Russian military victory that such as General Milley had been confidently predicting would lead to the Russian army being trapped in an unwinnable and costly insurgency. But the economic crisis didn't happen. "Russian's Afghanistan" didn't happen, though forecast often enough. Nothing we've done has worked and our leaders are at once irresolute, divided, and casting around for a way out of the disaster. Blindly doubling down has been the inevitable Western response and we're now waiting to see how far that doubling down will go.
That has taken the conflict to a new level. Failing any settlement to the conflict it could be that to counter the Kiev/Western threat to the Donbass, and to Russia overall, we could well see the Russians going as far as Western Ukraine. And there have been indications recently that the Russians now intend to do more even than that and in one way or another get their 2021 European security demands met into the bargain. On none of that can we be certain, but both are now a possibility.
In short, the more the West piles on the pressure the more firmly we see the Russians responding to that pressure. But these subsequent developments of the conflict should not obscure the fact that, at the beginning of the SMO, the Russian aims were limited. Nor should it obscure the essential fact that they were just.
That is a most difficult fact for us in the West to acknowledge. Who likes being in the wrong, and so disastrously? Could we in the UK, who fought Nazis for six exhausting years, ever acknowledge that we have been utilising neo-Nazis as a foreign policy tool? Could the Germans, to whom all things Nazi are anathema, ever acknowledge that Merkel and then Scholz were backing ultra-nationalists in Ukraine whose ideology, whose symbols even, derive directly from a period of German history they make such a show of repudiating?
But until that is acknowledged, until that is shown to be the case, we are condemned to a state of perpetual enmity, not only with Russia but with other countries increasingly on the Russian side, that will damage Europe severely and maybe irretrievably.
Posted by: English Outsider | Jun 17 2023 19:58 utc | 89
" “Russia has various properties in historic Palestine, obtained long before the establishment of the state of Israel, but the Russian ownership over these properties has been contested or outright rejected by Israel. It is possible that the so-called ‘political achievements’ involve a more flexible Israeli position on the issue in favor of handing Netanyahu a political win at a time that he is embattled.”
I think that is why Karlof1 might be correct in his assessment.
Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jun 17 2023 19:47 utc | 86 "
I fail to see what you're proposing. Is it that Russia regained its properties by agreeing to open a consulate , or is it, that Putin decided to help out Netanyahu with this move ? Either way, Russia is screwing over the Palestinians and will anger the Muslim world. This move only benefits Israel.
Posted by: Shocked | Jun 17 2023 20:01 utc | 90
Pyatikhatki (Orekhovskoe) & comments @15 & @70
Further information about the liquidation of the advancing UAF forces (claim for losses exceeding one thousand)
"Zaporozhye. Orekhovskoe direction. I am responsible for the data. The enemy went on the offensive in large numbers. Enemy infantry moved forward with the support of NATO tanks and armored vehicles. In this area there was a heavy continuous battle. Within a day, the Ukrainian assault battalion was completely destroyed . Not a single soldier, not a single officer could retreat. I know the number of armored and burned equipment of the Armed Forces of Ukraine per day, it is incredibly high, but it is up to the Russian Ministry of Defense to report specific results."
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/51115, quoting
https://t.me/Sladkov_plus/7976
Posted by: @vec | Jun 17 2023 20:02 utc | 91
@ Lantern Dude | Jun 17 2023 19:47 utc | 86
I think that is why Karlof1 might be correct in his assessment.
Thanks.
I tend to think that disinfo is strong with this one.
Also, many years ago I've seen the lecture of Baroud and had an impression that he is very Americanized, career oriented, political scientist. Yes, he also needs to take sides, so far being tiptoeing between Ukraine and RF, comparing it all with Israel occupation.
“People have the right to defend themselves against military occupation, period. Under any circumstance, regardless of the geopolitical nature of that conflict, and regardless of who’s involved in that conflict.”
Eel-like approach.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 20:04 utc | 92
News from the front, it seems fighting around bahkmut is stopped for about two days, at least ukraine isn't reporting anymore bombed kindergartens.
I'm guessing ukraine has concentrated everything in the south and russia forgot to keep fighting while ukraine is busy elsewhere.
Maybe they could use a satellite or two and see where they can poke ukraine, you know if putin is looking to get some smo action in while the getting is good.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 17 2023 20:07 utc | 93
Furthermore, this is the Ukie Open Thread, not an Open Thread for the discussion of the topic the troll is trying to foment, which is an SOP troll action.
@Neofeudalfuture | Jun 17 2023 19:04 utc | 66
@13 well the Chinese and russia governments are just as awful as the US one
Really? The U.S. Has Killed More Than 20 Million People in 37 “Victim Nations” Since World War II. How many millions of people in other countries have China and Russia killed?
Posted by: Cyril | Jun 17 2023 20:09 utc | 95
Hi!
Does anyone know what happened to Outraged? I don't think he's posted for a month or more. I always liked this military analysis. Bummer if Outraged has left ole MoA...
Posted by: DakotaRog | Jun 17 2023 20:11 utc | 96
I am waiting to make judgements until there are more official statements from Palestine. However, I do not believe that Russia is risking its historical relations with Palestine, but that it has first anchored the decision with the Palestinians in one way or another. If not, it would be a gigantic diplomatic blunder, which I can't imagine an experienced diplomat like Mr Lavrov doing.
Posted by: Carlsson on the roof | Jun 17 2023 20:12 utc | 97
@95 Cyril
I understand your point and it is well taken. However it's my opinion that's only because China and russia doesn't have the same opportunities and interests to spur such bloodshed.
Both China and russia have been involved in mass deaths too, usually internally but that's just where there interests lie. Given the opportunity you'd find that they'd be no better if given the power to range across the world.
Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 17 2023 20:13 utc | 98
@62
Well I believe he would be called the son of a shiksha whore among some groups as his mother was not jewish.
Posted by: badjoke | Jun 17 2023 20:13 utc | 99
@ Shocked | Jun 17 2023 20:01 utc | 90
Is it that Russia regained its properties by agreeing to open a consulate , or is it, that Putin decided to help out Netanyahu with this move ? Either way, Russia is screwing over the Palestinians and will anger the Muslim world. This move only benefits Israel.
Please explain how exactly this benefits Israel, except lowering the Co2 footprint of many people travelling to Tel Aviv to regulate stuff in Russian Embassy.
In Jerusalem they open consulate. That is good for everybody. Palestinians and Jews alike. It is not helping Bibi a one bit.
Unless of course it is written by Ukrainian Ministry of Truth or Sun or Bild:
"Russia throws Palestinians under the bus, cuddling to Netanyahu, slapping Xi in the face." or "Arabs revolt against Russian's move", "Muslim World angry at Putin's move to recognize Jerusalem as a Jewish capitol"...
This is how it sounds – I am sure you are aware of that.
Posted by: whirlX | Jun 17 2023 20:15 utc | 100
The comments to this entry are closed.
"There won‘t be any meaningful peace negotiations until Washington is bankrupt."
Washington is not going to go bankrupt any time soon. For one thing, all US debts are denominated in US dollars.
Posted by: Feral Finster | Jun 16 2023 16:33 utc | 40
Hyperinflation is Bankruptcy. Your money is worthless along with your debts held by others.
The USSA is heading backwards, down a hill, using a mirror as guidance.
Posted by: kupkee | Jun 17 2023 15:57 utc | 1