Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.
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June 15, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-141
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict. The current open thread for other issues here. Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Comments
As is my solemn civic duty, I’m afraid I have to report a rock solid case of propaganda …
If that was a genuine image the dolphin would have a shovel … Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Jun 15 2023 12:43 utc | 1 So as it happened, Moscow has announced a first set of elections of local representatives in four Oblasts. Posted by: kspr | Jun 15 2023 12:56 utc | 2 Messed up formatting it seems. Posted by: kspr | Jun 15 2023 12:58 utc | 3 An article from two days ago by professor Sergey Karaganov, honorary chairman of Russia’s Council on Foreign and Defense Policy, and academic supervisor at the School of International Economics and Foreign Affairs Higher School of Economics (HSE) in Moscow: Posted by: Lemming | Jun 15 2023 12:59 utc | 4 Good Morning from the Empire of Lies and Chaos where I wake each morning, grab my coffee and watch the decline and fall of the western world in real time. I’m a big history buff, have a degree in history, but lately have a very hard time sinking my teeth into anything now other than the history happening right before my eyes. Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 15 2023 13:01 utc | 5
I don’t think we can deduce anything from that to be honest. It might seem quiet as it does sometimes, but it never stops …
Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Jun 15 2023 13:04 utc | 6
https://t.me/rezident_ua/18316 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:07 utc | 7
https://t.me/rezident_ua/18320 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:09 utc | 8
https://t.me/rezident_ua/18321 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:10 utc | 9
https://t.me/rezident_ua/18322 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:12 utc | 10 Media in Belgorod oblast reporting Russian troops looting houses and property of local residents. Just to be clear, Belgorod oblast is still part of Russian Federation… Posted by: Sour | Jun 15 2023 13:12 utc | 11
https://t.me/rezident_ua/18323 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:13 utc | 12
https://t.me/rezident_ua/18327 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:15 utc | 13 @3 Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 15 2023 13:15 utc | 14 https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2023/06/15/fmht-j15.html Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jun 15 2023 13:15 utc | 15 Posted by: Sour | Jun 15 2023 13:12 utc | 12 Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Jun 15 2023 13:15 utc | 16
Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:17 utc | 17 Russian MoD report, Part 2 Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 15 2023 13:17 utc | 18
Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:19 utc | 19 Ukraine is reporting fresh gains around orikhiv and ugledar. However ukrimform took time to mention how they got hit with air and artillery strikes but didn’t lose the positions. Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 15 2023 13:19 utc | 20
Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:21 utc | 21 @neofeudalfuture Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 15 2023 13:21 utc | 22
Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:22 utc | 23 UKRAINE’S CURRENT OFFENSIVE: Posted by: young | Jun 15 2023 13:22 utc | 24 Posted by: Sour | Jun 15 2023 13:12 utc | 12 Posted by: Boo | Jun 15 2023 13:23 utc | 25
Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:24 utc | 26 @12 sour to be clear Moscow times isn’t local media, it’s operated from Europe. Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 15 2023 13:25 utc | 27 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:10 utc | 10 Posted by: Miau | Jun 15 2023 13:32 utc | 28 Ukraine is now between the proverbial rock and hard place. Pull back, claim it was just a probing operation that was never an offensive, hide the losses, and risk losing future weapons/ammo support from the West. Continue the offensive with a small potential upside and huge downside, most likely small territorial gains traded for massive losses which may render the AFU no longer a viable fighting force. Right now Ukraine’s rate of loss of resources is far greater than the rate of resupply. There are no good options, other than the usual application of propaganda to the debacle. I expect they will continue on because they don’t know what else to do. Posted by: Mike R | Jun 15 2023 13:36 utc | 29 The smart thing for Ukraine to do, now that Ye Olde Crapstaine Counteroffensive has apparently gone in the weeds, is to conserve whatever forces they have left and go back to playing Defense. Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 15 2023 13:40 utc | 30
https://t.me/rezident_ua/18328 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:46 utc | 31 The F16’s are old and the the Patriots are proven junk, what’s next? Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Jun 15 2023 13:49 utc | 32 Unless something drastic changes our current course, we head full steam into the perfect storm. Posted by: Pagan | Jun 15 2023 13:56 utc | 33 This phase of the counter-offensive seems to be ‘throw a lot of people from all available brigades at the front with many smaller attacks’. That’s my reading of the latest Military Summary video. Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jun 15 2023 14:04 utc | 34 Some Americans appreciate Russian humor: Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Jun 15 2023 14:05 utc | 35 According to the Government of the Russian Federation, more than half of the country’s citizens who left abroad after the start of the Special Military Operation in Ukraine have returned back to Russia. Posted by: repost | Jun 15 2023 14:05 utc | 36 @32 Ghost of zanon Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 15 2023 14:06 utc | 37 Has Soros Spent all his billions yet? Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jun 15 2023 14:07 utc | 38
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/50889 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 14:13 utc | 39 reply to 33 Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 15 2023 14:14 utc | 40 Here’s a theory – the CIA funds Soros, so that some of their initiatives are laundered through his NGOs etc. Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 15 2023 14:15 utc | 41 scepticalSOB | Jun 15 2023 14:07 utc | 40 Posted by: Concerned Citizen | Jun 15 2023 14:16 utc | 42 Propaganda and bluster has been the major driving force behind US foreign policy for decades. Late stage empire. Right now they still fund all this (along with their bank accounts) out of government budgets. It is a good racket as Assange pointed out about Afghanistan in 2011. There is no downside for Western politicians in this arrangement. What will end it is the emergence of a multipolar world. The world does appear to be moving towards BRICS. If the US empire can’t get favorable trade terms they won’t be able to extract anymore wealth out of Western society. Well… there won’t be enough left to extract and their populations will be forced to deal with their leaders failures. Nobody will be in the mood to fund their own starvation at that point. Posted by: Goldhoarder | Jun 15 2023 14:17 utc | 43 Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 15 2023 14:06 utc | 39 Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 15 2023 14:17 utc | 44 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 13:46 utc | 33 Posted by: Revelo | Jun 15 2023 14:19 utc | 45 Day in and day out attacks can soon leave defenders numb. Unless the attacks are successfully repulsed while incurring few casualties, relative to the vast amount of damage inflicted on the attackers. In that case the defenders get a morale boost, and eventually reap the benefit of having experienced the best live fire combat training available in the world. Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 15 2023 14:23 utc | 46 Ukraine to get F-16s. Please let it be true. Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 15 2023 14:25 utc | 47
Joseph Borrell gave a curious statement few days ago. He said the war in Ukraine will not end until after US 2024 elections. Well, most likely you could easily make a valid military-economic analysis why it is so. But it is interesting, non the less. Posted by: unimperator | Jun 15 2023 14:27 utc | 48 Re: clobber reports Posted by: Exile | Jun 15 2023 14:28 utc | 49 scepticalSOB@35….the Ukraine is not on a counter-offensive, rather they are on a counter-defensive…with one goal. Freeze the LOC regardless of loses…..bit of Brit combat tactic, see; any major war they started in the last two centuries and failed to win. Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jun 15 2023 14:30 utc | 50
Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 14:49 utc | 51
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/50896 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 14:53 utc | 52 A make-or-break time is coming up for NATO heralded by the upcoming summit meeting in the Lithuanian capital Vilnius in mid-July.
Posted by: Don Bacon | Jun 15 2023 14:53 utc | 53 The antidote to Moscow Times is RT or Russia Times. One generally negative the other generally positive on Russia. It is a matter of point of view. I don’t routinely read either and I only glance at most of what our controlled media puts out because most of it is too far from reality to be useful. Posted by: Jmaas | Jun 15 2023 14:54 utc | 54
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/50913 Posted by: Down South | Jun 15 2023 14:56 utc | 55 The US via NATO got way out over their skis on this one. If they blow it in Ukraine (hint: they are blowing it big time), the very existence of NATO comes into question. All those recent Baltic and E European NATO additions are going to wonder why they are members of NATO if NATO can’t even protect Ukraine. They hoped that sanctions and money, weapons, and endless propaganda would hurt Russia, stoke resentment and foment some sort of regime change in Moscow. None of this happened, and now they are stuck. Oddly enough, I think this has turned into a bigger existential crisis for NATO than for Russia. As a previous poster mentioned, I think their only solution now is to freeze the conflict and quietly draw back and dig in and hope Russia just lays back as well. An unspoken, unofficial ceasefire is the absolute best the Biden regime can hope for. Posted by: Frank McGar | Jun 15 2023 14:57 utc | 56 @11: Posted by: Matthias | Jun 15 2023 14:58 utc | 57 Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 15 2023 13:17 utc | 19
[MAP – Kherson : Golaya Pristan] Posted by: sln2002 | Jun 15 2023 15:06 utc | 58 Ukraine to get F-16s. Please let it be true. Posted by: Passerby | Jun 15 2023 15:07 utc | 59 @17 @26
https://t.me/Govorit_NeMoskva/10574 Posted by: Sour | Jun 15 2023 15:12 utc | 60 There is a saying. If you owe the bank a thousand dollars, they own you. If you owe the bank ten million dollars, you own them. Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 15 2023 15:12 utc | 61
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 15 2023 15:13 utc | 62 Remember, Neocon lovers, Victoria “Fuck the EU” Nuland and her clan have no reverse gear: From BBC world service
Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 15 2023 15:24 utc | 64 Don Bacon | Jun 15 2023 14:53 utc | 54 Posted by: dh | Jun 15 2023 15:25 utc | 65 @62 this is not how journalism is done. They had to verify the source first, then compare it with multiple sources, else it is a big fat fake news. Posted by: Doomslayer111 | Jun 15 2023 15:26 utc | 66 I used to wonder how a democratic and well educated society as Weimar Germany could fall under the spell of the Nazi party Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 15 2023 15:28 utc | 67 Posted by: Sour | Jun 15 2023 13:12 utc | 11 Posted by: Skandi | Jun 15 2023 15:31 utc | 68 So to the Crimea, where legionella and gastroenteritis cases have started to appear due to deteriorating water quality. The first epidemics of the dust disaster have begun!!! Posted by: sln2002 | Jun 15 2023 15:36 utc | 69 Personally I think Russia has absolutely nothing to fear with a nuclear strike over a Nazi population centre (E.g. Lvov) Posted by: Night Tripper | Jun 15 2023 15:40 utc | 70 As always, anyone who can find Yuri’s 5 minutes briefings subtitled in English – would be deeply appreciated. No one better, imho. Posted by: paxmark1 | Jun 15 2023 15:41 utc | 71 @Lemming 4 Posted by: NJH | Jun 15 2023 15:45 utc | 72
The most modern stuff was wasted on mad dash frontal assaults, several of the Nato brigades were wrecked and are now being rebuilt with new conscripts. Several more brigades were drawn to Zap front, and one more sent to Svatovo area. They are getting drained out. Posted by: unimperator | Jun 15 2023 15:45 utc | 73 @ Sour | Jun 15 2023 13:12 utc | 11 Posted by: james | Jun 15 2023 15:46 utc | 74 Posted by: NJH | Jun 15 2023 15:45 utc | 74 Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 15 2023 15:54 utc | 75 @ Bemildred | Jun 15 2023 15:54 utc | 77 Posted by: james | Jun 15 2023 15:58 utc | 76 Posted by: @Bemildred | Jun 15 2023 15:54 utc | 77 Posted by: Night Tripper | Jun 15 2023 16:09 utc | 77 So Budanov, allegedly, is in Berlin. Posted by: Don Firineach | Jun 15 2023 16:10 utc | 78 Posted by: james | Jun 15 2023 15:58 utc | 78 Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 15 2023 16:12 utc | 79 @ Ghost of Zanon | Jun 15 2023 16:12 utc | 81 Posted by: james | Jun 15 2023 16:15 utc | 80 The idea that NATO would attempt to respond in kind over Moscow is laughable. Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 15 2023 16:17 utc | 81 Posted by: Sour | Jun 15 2023 13:12 utc | 12 Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 15 2023 16:19 utc | 82 When time flies it’s hard to remember the past; Posted by: gottlieb | Jun 15 2023 16:20 utc | 83 @ Bemildred | Jun 15 2023 16:17 utc | 83 Posted by: james | Jun 15 2023 16:24 utc | 84 NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg and his colleagues must face a military tribunal for shipments of weapons to Ukraine. Posted by: AI | Jun 15 2023 16:28 utc | 85 Bemildred @ 77 Posted by: Mark2 | Jun 15 2023 16:31 utc | 86 @ Ghost of Zanon | Jun 15 2023 16:12 utc | 81 Posted by: latelyicry | Jun 15 2023 16:31 utc | 87 81. I read today in RT a serious article justifying a limited nuclear strike in order to give the West pause and stop a large nuclear war. I unfortunately share your gloomy assessment. While I understand the Russians desire to get the West to stop their escalations, I don’t think it would work. The fact that this piece was published is highly concerning. Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 15 2023 16:34 utc | 88
USA has no other objective in continuing the war other than kill Russians to weaken it. All Ukrainians will be utilized for this purpose, regardless of loss ratios. Posted by: unimperator | Jun 15 2023 16:36 utc | 89 Posted by: james | Jun 15 2023 16:24 utc | 86 Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 15 2023 16:37 utc | 90 Posted by: Sour | Jun 15 2023 13:12 utc | 12 Posted by: Numbnutz | Jun 15 2023 16:43 utc | 91 Posted by: @unimperator | Jun 15 2023 16:36 utc | 92 Posted by: Night Tripper | Jun 15 2023 16:44 utc | 92 Pagan 35 Posted by: Giyane | Jun 15 2023 16:50 utc | 93 94. Hey genius why don’t you post some examples of the ebil Russian propaganda here? Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 15 2023 16:50 utc | 94 Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 15 2023 14:14 utc | 41 Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 15 2023 16:55 utc | 95 @Posted by: repost | Jun 15 2023 14:05 utc | 37
Many of the intellectuals that helped destroy the USSR found the same thing, they took the top 1% of actors, writers, journalists etc. in the West to be representative of the life that all actors, writers, journalists etc. lead in the West unfree capitalism. “The grass is always greener” fallacy. The vast majority did not do well in the 1990s.
The Russians should have been delivering consequences to these assholes much earlier. They need to escalate such actions to get across to the Ukrainian leadership that there is only one way they have a chance of staying alive. No exits to nice houses in Florida as has been the out of so many US-backed traitors in the past. Will send a message to other elites that think that after ruining their own nations for the West they will get a nice retirement in the US. Roger‘s post above is a variant of the (racist) Russia-is-a-primitive-economy-that-only-survives-on-selling-of-fossil-fuels Posted by: Exile | Jun 15 2023 17:14 utc | 97 Re: Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 15 2023 14:06 utc | 38 Posted by: Julian | Jun 15 2023 17:16 utc | 98 Bemildred | Jun 15 2023 16:17 utc | 83–
I’m unable to confirm that since the entire transcript of her Weekly Briefing isn’t complete, but based on the above context that appears to be the case. 99 – True although it shows how ineffective Communist propaganda or ideological explanation was. Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 15 2023 17:30 utc | 100 |
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