Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 23, 2023
The Ukrainian Counter-Offensive Had No Chance. NATO Failed To Explain That.

The 'west' pushed Ukraine into a hopeless counter-offensive based on false assessments and wild expectations.

Russian troops were claimed to be weak, untrained and unprepared for an Ukrainian attack. On the other side it was claimed that the freshly mobilized Ukrainian men which received 'western' weapons and training would have the necessary quantity and quality to overcome Russian defenses.

Ukrainian troops, as well as the public, were told to believe that bullshit.

Lord Bebo @MyLordBebo – 0:55 UTC · Jun 23, 2023

NATO training explained by an Ukrainian POW
-> Psychologists trained them to not be afraid and that Russia is exhausted and weak …
Embedded video From Maimunka News


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Any rational and neutral military assessment showed a far more realistic picture. One in which Russia would always defeat the planned counter-offensive.

At the end of 2022 the Ukrainian army had been exhausted and had been already been destroyed twice. The Russians had first destroyed large parts of the original equipment of the Ukrainian army and then the Soviet era equipment that was brought to Ukraine from former Warsaw Pact nations.

More importantly they had killed or wounded many of the experienced non-commissioned staff (Sergeants etc) and lower rank officers of the Ukrainian military that command and are the core of each company. The newly mobilized Ukrainian forces did not have the knowledge or training necessary to replace them.

'Western' equipment is more complex than Soviet era stuff.  It also requires more specialized maintenance. The Ukraine received a zoo. The many types of equipment and the many incompatible kinds of ammunition they use are a logistic nightmare.

'Western' training for the mobilized Ukrainian forces did not bring up more capable soldiers than Soviet training would have done. Those who watched NATO stumble in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya should have recognized that.

Russian on the other side mobilized 300,000 soldiers who mostly had been contract soldiers before they had returned to private life. They received extensive refresher training. They now mostly get paid more than in their civilian life which certainly helped to increase their motivation.

Russia also changed the structure of its military. The main Russian fighting force in 2022 was made up of Brigade Tactical Groups (BIG). Each of them was part of a garrison brigade which next to the one contract soldier BTG had additional battalions that were mostly training conscripts. Under Russian laws the conscript battalions could not be used on foreign ground.

The fighting BTG's had few real infantry soldiers. Next to their 9 infantry platoons they had 8 artillery and 5 auxiliary platoons. Of a total of some 800 plus soldiers in a BTG only 200 were actually infantry that could man the trenches. The whole structure was too big and too difficult to command.

After the mobilization had brought up enough men the Russian military changed from BTGs to a mobile brigade structure. Under a higher commander the brigade holds two or three battalions that each consist of three or four companies of mobile infantry or tanks. Most of the artillery and auxiliary troops of the former BTGs are now concentrated under the brigade structure and can be used more flexible wherever they are needed. The tooth to tail ratio in the frontline battalions is now much higher than in a BTG and the whole structure is easier to command.

Above the newly structured brigades are now division commands which have additional assets like air defenses, attack helicopters and electronic warfare units. They direct the brigades within a wider front and with a bigger picture in mind.

While a lack of contract infantry necessitated the BTG structure of 2022 the additionally mobilized forces allowed in 2023 to return to the more efficient classic structures of battalions under brigades under divisions. All this was visible through the reports from the Russian military which had stopped to mention BTGs and changed to brigade numbers. For an unbiased military mind it was easy to see that this new Russian force would be a more balanced and better one.

Satellite pictures had shown for months that the Russian troops were building extensive defense structures like trench lines and anti-tank barriers. They are by the way still adding to them.

In the spring of 2023 the Ukrainian army was much weaker than when the war started. The Russian military had grown and was stronger. It also had well prepared positions. 'Western' politicians, the propagandized public and military commands failed to recognize those facts.

NATO had simulated the Ukrainian counter-offensive:

Logic dictates that any responsible use of the KORA simulation system would have predicted the failure of the 47th Brigade’s attack. According to The Washington Post, the officers of the 47th Brigade “planned their assaults and then let the [KORA] program show them the results – how their Russian enemies might respond, where they could make a breakthrough and where they would suffer losses.” The KORA simulation allowed the Ukrainian officers to coordinate their actions “to test how they’d work together on the battlefield.”

Given that the Ukrainian force structure was insufficient to accomplish the mission-critical task of suppression, there was no chance for the Ukrainian forces to accomplish the actual assault requirements of a breaching operation – the destruction of enemy forces on the opposite side of the obstacle barrier being breached. The Ukrainians, however, came away from their KORA experience confident that they had crafted a winning plan capable of overcoming the Russian defenses in and around Orekhov.

When one examines the structure of a KORA-based simulation, it becomes clear that the system is completely dependent upon the various inputs which define the simulation as a whole.

They probably thought the Ukrainians could actually win. But when one uses wrong estimates for the fighting powers of each side as input of a simulation the output will always be garbage.

The real world results are now in. The Ukrainian counter-offensive has failed.


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The weekend edition of the German business daily headlines: "This isn't a counter-offensive. It is a bloody crash test."

It is now time to acknowledge that the 'western' military assessments and its expectations were completely wrong:

In its early phases, Ukraine’s counteroffensive is having less success and Russian forces are showing more competence than western assessments expected, two western officials and a senior US military official tell CNN.

The counteroffensive is “not meeting expectations on any front,” one of the officials said.

According to the Western assessments, Russian lines of defense have been proving well-fortified, making it difficult for Ukrainian forces to breach them. In addition, Russian forces have had success bogging down Ukrainian armor with missile attacks and mines and have been deploying air power more effectively.

Ukrainian forces are proving “vulnerable” to minefields and Russian forces “competent” in their defense, one of the Western officials said.

Even the neoconservative Institute for the Study of War was forced to eat some tiny bits of craw and to acknowledge the competence of the Russian forces:

The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) responded to the Ukrainian attack with an uncharacteristic degree of coherency and praised Southern Military District elements for repelling the attack and regaining lost positions.

Anyone who thinks that coherency is uncharacteristic for the Russians should go back and read up on Operation Bagration which showed what a well prepared Russian military can actually do.

ISW also writes:

Russian forces appear to have executed their formal tactical defensive doctrine in response to the Ukrainian attacks …

Well, what did the ISW 'experts' expect? That the Russians would use their manuals as toilet paper and run away when the turkey shooting begins?

In their utter stupidity the neoconservatives probably really believed that.

The assessments made did not acknowledge the dubious quality of freshly stood up Ukrainian forces. They did not acknowledge the changes and growth in the military structures on the Russian side. They failed to recognize the quality of the Russian fortifications and military capabilities and the deep roots of their doctrine.

The results are the consequence of ignoring reality, of seeing what one wants to see.

The politics of this war demanded that the 'western' side wins. NATO military was biased towards that. Instead of telling the politicians what a realistic outcome would be it delivered hopeful assessments that defied reality.

In consequence the Ukrainian military suffered many unnecessary casualties and lost the initiative.

Let's hope that at least some folks will learn from this.

Comments

@NAFOBRO-
Provide proof that TASS reported a “success of Donbass self defense” and timestamps.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 22:00 utc | 201

“Well, Surovikin has appealed to Wagner fighters not to shoot their Russian comrades.”
This kind of stuff wouldn’t be happening if something wasn’t really happening. And Surovikin had a rifle on his lap? What is up with that? Alekseyev did not.

Posted by: Tim2 | Jun 23 2023 22:00 utc | 202

Leaving aside Mr. Priggo and all that nonsense, isn’t today the end date of the “massive” NATO exercise, during which they were supposed to be attacking Russia with all manner of F-xx Flying Invoices?
Just asking for a friend, you know how it goes…

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 22:01 utc | 203

Destablization efforts…
Russia’s FSB investigating Prigozhin for incitement of armed rebellion – TASS
The Russian stock market reacted to the latest Wagner/Prigozhin news.
The value of the shares of all companies went into the red zone.
– @Sprinter99880
graphs/visuals of various Russian stockmarket readings: https://twitter.com/Sprinter99880/status/1672337145984438274

Posted by: Irish | Jun 23 2023 22:01 utc | 204

robjira | Jun 23 2023 21:58 utc | 217
sorry; *1944

Posted by: robjira | Jun 23 2023 22:02 utc | 205

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 21:57 utc | 215
Blunders from the Russian press are not even tiny bits of circumstantial evidence …
You need evidence of shoting by a buk (which doesnt exist) and evidence it was shit by the separatist (of which there is none).
Same old, same old BS … than in 2014!
You poor sod indeed.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 23 2023 22:06 utc | 206

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 21:54 utc | 213
Which Reuters story are you referring to, in particular? Again, it would be helpful to disperse the conceptualisation of your posts as trolling, if you could kindly take the time out to post an actual link. Of course we can all understand the reasons why you might find such a process too difficult…

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 22:06 utc | 207

@NAFOBRO
The “eyewitness” was never identified. Your first comment on the matter was an attempt to make it seem as though the Donbass rebels had made the claim to have shot a plane down, when in fact it was reported by an “eyewitness.”
Nothing in your “Conversation” article refutes this and merely tries to spin the story as though TASS was changing its own reporting when it wasn’t. The only claims come from alleged “eyewitnesses” who – TMK – were never able to state with certainty that it was Donbass forces who shot it down. For a more accurate “timeline” of events pertaining to “eyewitnesses” you should go here…
https://johnhelmer.net/?s=mh17+eyewitness

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 22:10 utc | 208

This particular aspect of the Ukraine issue gets mentioned every so often like today, “Ukraine’s Human Organ and Child Prostitution Trafficking Industries: Does Only Russia’s Maria Zakharova Still Care?” by Declan Hayes. Hayes shows he can do investigative reporting with this article. Here’s its opening:

This article addresses the claims of Russian Foreign Ministry spokesperson Maria Zakharova et al that Zelensky’s Ukraine is a major criminal hub in the global trafficking of human body parts, and with children into the white slave trade, as well as recent European Union claims that all such “Russian” assertions are mis-information.
Because of the seriousness of such allegations and denials, this preliminary exploration is written in a quasi-academic style and is divided into a number of sections to help interested authorities bring the culprits, from whatever side of the lines they may be on, to account.
Thus, section 1 surveys the global trafficking trade in human organs and child prostitutes to establish that such lucrative industries do exist and, ergo, that, as with Jeffrey Epstein’s Orgy Island, some individuals, organised crime gangs and institutions must be guilty of being involved in such trafficking. Section 2 looks at the pivotal role Ukraine has historically played in such trafficking to hypothesise that there may well be large numbers of Ukrainians currently active in such criminality. Section 3 establishes that, because the West has long been aware of such crimes, those crimes are not the result of Russian dis-information or any such spurious figment. Section 4 concludes by arguing that the onus is on the Zelensky dictatorship and its Western backers to open Ukraine’s morgues and hospitals to reputable investigators and that the Russian authorities are likewise bound to surrender copies of whatever pertinent documents relating to these Ukrainian crimes they have to those same reputable authorities.

But who are the “reputable authorities”? The rest of the article makes it seem as if none exist. No credible international law enforcement agency exists, so who/what’s going to hunt down these criminal cartels? Those are questions Hayes leaves unasked. And here are a few others: Whose laws, whose courts and whose jurisdiction?
Soldiers aren’t the only ones being exploited and dying in Ukraine. How many read the Nazi plans published in full in Russia for the first time yesterday about the real nature of Plan Ost–the politically motivated genocide of 30-40 million Russians via famine?
Thanks to those who took the time to read my comment and not scroll past!!

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 23 2023 22:14 utc | 209

@229
Stop telling lies. Nothing you have provided remotely backs the assertion that anyone, including Russia or the Donbass separatists, were “openly boasting” about bringing down MH17. If you choose to continue making these false claims at least provide a link that actually contains them.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 22:14 utc | 210

@233
More lies and dissembling. Find me the proof that on July 17, Donbass rebels or Russian media “openly boasted” about bringing down ANY plane, rather than anonymous “eyewitnesses” merely claiming that they THOUGHT that MH17 was an An-26. I’ll wait. P.S. your web.archive link doesn’t work and provides a “404” error. How fitting.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 22:20 utc | 211

Posted by: young | Jun 23 2023 21:35 utc | 201:
Nice post! A concise wrap-up of what has happened since Bakhmut. I’m afraid what you insinuate regarding F-16 and radiation release are indeed in the cards that the West is holding, but I’ll bet that these cards will turn turds as the western tanks and artilleries did over the past 16 months. The west simply lacks the brain, the sources, or the morale to accomplish any modicum of success, so far or further into the future.
The cliche “fighting to the last Ukrainian” used to be just a tongue-in-cheek mockery when SMO was first launched. It now seems it HAS become the actual doctrine the west is set to follow. I feel deeply sorry for Ukrainians 18 years and older. I hope and pray that after this June Offensive is exhausted, China’s Peace Mission will begin to see some day light. But I also hope that Putin will refuse to deal with Ukraine one-on-one. Putin should insist the peace process involves Ukraine plus NATO!

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2023 22:20 utc | 212

We warned “don’t fly in our sky” is “openly boasting” to have shot something down? Assuming that it’s even true and attributable to Girkin, it’s not boasting about anything. It’s re-iterating a warning that was made multiple times in the weeks preceding the MH17 shootdown against commercial aviation flying in that airspace.
LOL you’re going to have to try much harder. I can find “eyewitnesses” that saw Ukrainian fighter jets and Ukrainian BUK missile batteries in the area too.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 22:22 utc | 213

Anyone know anything about wagner attacking moscow?
Guess Prigozhin is upset.
Something about the Russian army attacking wagner troops.

Posted by: southfront fan | Jun 23 2023 22:25 utc | 214

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 21:54 utc | 213
Which Reuters story are you referring to, in particular? Again, it would be helpful to disperse the conceptualisation of your posts as trolling, if you could kindly take the time out to post an actual link. Of course we can all understand the reasons why you might find such a process too difficult…
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 22:06 utc | 226
This Reuters story.
https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-boss-says-moscows-war-ukraine-based-lies-2023-06-23/
And here are the quotes from the story I posted @197 and the questions I posed about it to make it extra-easy for you or anyone else to point out all the lies and the falsehoods in the story. So go ahead, point out the lies.
“Russia accused mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin of calling for an armed mutiny on Friday after he alleged, without providing evidence, that the military leadership had killed 2,000 of his fighters and vowed to stop what he called its “evil”.”
Did Prigozhin say the military leadership had killed 2,000 of his men?
“RAs a long-running standoff between him and the Defence Ministry appeared to come to a head, the ministry issued a statement, saying Prigozhin’s accusations were “not true and are an informational provocation.””
Did the MoD say his statements were “not true and are an informational provocation”?
“Prigozhin said his actions did not amount to a military coup. But Russia’s FSB security service opened a criminal case against him for calling for an armed mutiny, the TASS news agency said on Friday, citing the National Anti-terrorism Committee.”
Did Tass say that? Was Tass correct that FSB opened a criminal case against Prigozhin?
“The Kremlin said President Vladimir Putin had been informed and that “necessary measures are being taken”.”
Has it been stated that Putin was informed?
“Prigozhin, whose frequent tirades on social media belie his limited role in the war as head of the Wagner private militia, has for months been openly accusing Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and Russia’s top general, Valery Gerasimov, of rank incompetence and of denying his forces ammunition and support.”
Is that a fair summary of what Prigozhin has been saying?
“But earlier on Friday, he had appeared to cross a new line in his increasingly vitriolic feud with the Defence Ministry, saying that the Kremlin’s rationale for invading Ukraine was based on lies concocted by the army’s top brass.”
That’s what he said, wasn’t it?
“The minister of defence has ordered 2,000 bodies that are being stored to be hidden so as not to show the losses.”
“Those who destroyed our lads, who destroyed the lives of many tens of thousands of Russian soldiers, will be punished. I ask that no one offer resistance …
“There are 25,000 of us and we are going to figure out why chaos is happening in the country.”
Are those quotes accurate?
If you think there is anything that is false in the Reuters story, feel free to point it out. But I’m pretty sure you’re not going to be able to come up with a single falsehood, since it simply repeats what the various Russians involved are saying.
Here’s an exercise for those overdosing on copium. Pretend this was happening on the Ukrainian side. Pretend this was Budanov talking about Zaluzhnyi, for example. How would you react then?
This exercise may help you think more clearly about what is happening.

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 22:27 utc | 215

Address of General Surovikin and Lieutenant General Alekseev V.S. to the commanders and fighters of PMC “Wagner
https://twitter.com/Sprinter99880/status/1672356082889502722
https://twitter.com/TranslateMom/status/1672364345357922305/video/1 for English subtitles
https://twitter.com/TranslateMom/status/1672365349000314880 also with subtitles

Posted by: Manage without me | Jun 23 2023 22:27 utc | 216

Well, yes, the NATO exercise has been completed and the preliminary summary report has been released:

Oh, shit!” …

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 22:27 utc | 217

Prigozhin should have been nipped in the bud as the cliche goes. The pitfalls of allowing warlords and mercenary armies to pop up in what is ultimately a civil society. Strange that such a situation was allowed to develop in the RF, but seems to me yet another adverse consequence of the anarchy of the post Soviet collapse that remains to be extinguished. Wagner PMC needs to put to paid. And this latest treasonous outburst by Prigozhin might provide the opportunity for Putin to do just that.

Posted by: Akash | Jun 23 2023 22:28 utc | 218

In Robotino Russian forces retreated to the second line of forward positions closer to the settlement

Read it again. Russian forces retreated to the second line in front of Robotino … not the second defensive belt.

Posted by: HB_Norica | Jun 23 2023 22:29 utc | 219

There is growing feeling that ukraine is going to call off the awful offensive. So roll out the P show to bait them with hope.

Posted by: Oh | Jun 23 2023 22:31 utc | 220

Well, here’s a lot of other stuff Prigozhin has said vs. reality.
-Prigozhin said that they will leave the positions in Bakhmut: captured Bakhmut 10 days later
-Prigozhin said that the ammunition is exhausted: ammunition was still used 25k / day in their area and on their behalf / supporting operations
-Prigozhin said, we are so weak and broken: captured the city and a little later the account 70k AFU soldiers dead vs. less than a third of the Wagners
-Prigozhin said, Zelensky, take the little boys off the line and send men instead: a moment later, AFU spetznaz appeared to defend the Bakhmut grinder
-Prigozhin said blah blah, anything possible that minimizes the risk of Zelensky abandoning Bakhmut prematurely
Yeah. Bakhmut was a grinder. It was meant to kill off AFU best troops for the cost of some conscripts, who are now unavailable for any other ops. The whole affair is cynical, acknowledged. Very cynical. Zelensky took the bait. Now this Zaporozhye adventure is another disaster but on an even larger scale.

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 23 2023 22:32 utc | 221

@Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2023 22:20 utc | 236
Let’s remember that Ukraine/Russia is a side show for the US/Western elites versus the main event of Taiwan/China. They thought that they could knock out Russia quickly, making dealing with China so much easier. Instead, they got bogged down in an ongoing war with Russia that is draining their armouries. They massively underestimated the strength and cohesion of Russia.
Those elites cannot risk a direct conflict with Russia that will do significant damage to the West’s military, intelligence and general production capabilities as that would hand victory to the Chinese. That’s the conundrum for the Western elites, they are bogged down in Ukraine but cannot escalate enough to extricate themselves in any kind of “winning” way because the Russians can damage them so much that China will then win without a fight.
They will have to let Ukraine go “quietly into the night” of lost memories so that they can regroup against China (which in reality they have already lost the fight against but they have their delusions). They are massively underestimating China, as they have done with Russia, but they never learn.

Posted by: Roger | Jun 23 2023 22:34 utc | 222

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 22:27 utc | 239
None of that explains anything important (and you are still quoting Reuters as a reputable source, who in turn, do not quote their sources directly).
Now, explain to me why 10 days of NATO exercises have made no damn difference.

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 22:34 utc | 223

All is lost. Prigozhin is marching on Moscow.
I reddit on reddit. Russia doesnt stand a chance against Wagner. Also I read on Reddit that prigozhin is in command of Wagner. Oh, and on Twitter they say that Putin is peeing his pants and begging the Wagner forces, already on the outskirts of Moscow, to stop, but the Russians have already turned on Putin.
Reports from the New York Times say the Russian Freedom Army has grown by the day. I read on facebook they have a million man army in Moscow already, but dictator Putin is keeping everything hidden and executing anyone who releases footage of the army and also killing babies and also giving his palace guards viagra so they can rape Saddam’s weapons of mass destruction before they blow up their own dam. Luckily, I heard on NPR the white helmets are on their way to the nucular weapon plant in chernobyl or somewhere over there to stop putin from launching missiles at it.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 22:34 utc | 224

243 –
1) Your vk archive link doesn’t work. Hence we are going around and around based on your allegations, not direct quotations visible to all.
2) Show us the alleged statement in the original Russian.
3) There had been multiple other planes shot at in the area, but at MUCH lower altitudes, in the preceding months. The rebels simply did not have the types of missiles needed to bring down a plane flying at ~30K feet. Not even at trial could the Dutch prosecutors prove they did while it is 100% certain that the Ukros did.
4) Assuming that what Girkin said in Russian can be translated to “was shot down” – that still does not equate to “We shot a plane down” and the warnings not to fly in that airspace came from Russian aviation authorities in the preceding weeks due to the previous shootdowns and the lack of aviation ‘infrastructure’ in the warzone. Hence “We warned not to fly in our sky” (again, assuming it’s even an accurate translation – or that it was really said by Girkin) means nothing as John Helmer has proven over and over at his site Dances With Bears as he covered the incident and trial in the Netherlands.
Again, you’re going to have to do a lot better.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 22:34 utc | 225

Sour Kraut:
So a drunken, incompetent, unorganized Russian Military along with a cook in charge of a bunch of criminals with shovels, are whooping the ass off NATO/USSA/Ukistan.
What does that say about you and Team Loser?
You certainly are winning at losing !
Prig? Always a diversion. Wagner is probably marching through Kiev while your team (Team Propaganda) is wetting their panties.
K

Posted by: kupkee | Jun 23 2023 22:34 utc | 226

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 19:32 utc | 99
Posted by: pasha | Jun 23 2023 19:25 utc | 86
… he knows who owns Russia, chabad and he’s sick of it. Maybe his statements make lots of sense. Blackrock is also chabad. The real owners of this conflict getting filthy rich.
=====================
Do you have a good article source for that notion? I don’t recall reading that idea anywhere else before. Intriguing…

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 23 2023 22:35 utc | 227

B
The given photo is fake news.

Posted by: schkid | Jun 23 2023 22:37 utc | 228

West of England Andy # 22:01 utc | 221

Leaving aside Mr. Priggo and all that nonsense, isn’t today the end date of the “massive” NATO exercise, during which they were supposed to be attacking Russia with all manner of F-xx Flying Invoices?
Just asking for a friend, you know how it goes…

Glad you asked. Tell your friend that nothing seems to have happened other than an immense amount of air pollution in the wake.
Plus the Russian FSB nabbed a bunch of Ukrainian spies with a few kilograms of cesium thus scotching Lindsay Graham false flag BS.
There is more distraction value in Priggo and his wrong choice of mushrooms in his soup than the entire NATO air armada stunt. Priggo must envy the budget that NATO can muster.
I suspect there is a wagner takeover under way and that explains the mess.
But other than that it is good news week again as I see the hegemon is hopelessly lost in eastern europe.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 23 2023 22:37 utc | 229

I just found a site telling of a civil war begun in Russia, and in Ukraine at the front. The Wagner forces are turning on the Russian Army, and have been attacking civil authority inside Russia, already violent and dangerous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMWjYTRkgfA
this is the site reporting have noted that other sites are reporting this, and say it is aimed at toppling the current government.
would be interested in any information!

Posted by: medo | Jun 23 2023 22:40 utc | 230

Here’s another thought, how much air support does Priggo have for his putative “march to Moscow”?
Good luck…

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 22:42 utc | 231

Surovikin video (see @240, @213) text translation: Stop the columns! Return to base!
“I have just returned by the order of the Ministry of Defence from the zero line, where our forces, our commanders, our soldiers, volunteers carry out the objective, fighting the superior enemy forces to death, take casualties, but stand on their positions.
I appeal to the leadership, commanders and fighters of PMC Wagner: Together with you, we walked a difficult path. Together with you, we fought, we took risks, we took losses, but overcome together. We are of the same blood. We are warriors.
I call on you to stop. The enemy is waiting for our internal political situation to aggravate. We shouldn’t play into the enemy’s hand in this difficult time for the country.”
It needs to be done before it’s too late: to obey the will and order of the people-elected President of the Russian Federation. Stop the columns, and return them to their permanent positions and places of concentration.
To solve all problems with civil means only under the leadership of the Supreme Commander of the Russian Armed Forces.
https://twitter.com/wartranslated/status/1672357331663765504

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 22:43 utc | 232

245 –
Using Google translate (I’m open to suggestions for better). Strelkov is quoted as follows:

“An An-26 plane has just been shot down in the Torez area, lying somewhere behind the Progress mine.
They warned not to fly in “our sky”.
And here is a video confirmation of the next “birdfall”.
The bird fell behind the slagheap, did not catch the residential sector. Peaceful people were not hurt.
And there is also information about the second downed plane, apparently Su.

The “next birdfall” refers to what? The ‘apparent’ Su? What have you to say about the alleged 2nd shootdown on the same day?
In any case, what are you rambling about re: the TASS article? It’s exactly the same in every snapshot and again, it simply attributes the identification of the An-26 and the allegation that it was shot down by Donbass rebels to an unnamed “eyewitness.” Tell us, are you aware of the court proceedings in the Netherlands and the testimony of “eyewitnesses” there? IF so, what do you know about the SBU’s role in selecting “eyewitnesses”?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 22:44 utc | 233

A newscast on Channel One dedicated to Prigozhin and “Wagner” was begun.
The statements of the Prosecutor’s Office, the FSB, the NAC, etc., which have already been published online, are being read out. Telegram is about 1.5-2 hours ahead of the TV.
In fact, they didn’t say anything new, only what the official authorities have already brought to social networks.
A summary of the special news release on channel one for those who did not have time to watch the broadcast.
1. The Reading out the messages of the FSB Central Control Center, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the Prosecutor General’s Office about the situation with the Wagner PMCs.
2. A number of other official statements previously published in Telegram channels.
3. There is no additional information.
CC

Posted by: repost | Jun 23 2023 22:44 utc | 234

zinjanthropus # 21:54 utc | 213

Tell me what is false in the Reuters story.

It is axiomatic. If its Reuters, its BS. Find better proof before believing or even entertaining the possibility that there may be one accurate statement. AND that excludes offering “he said” as any proof of an accurate point.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 23 2023 22:45 utc | 235

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 19:32 utc | 99
To: pasha | Jun 23 2023 19:25 utc | 86
… he knows who owns Russia, chabad and he’s sick of it. Maybe his statements make lots of sense. Blackrock is also chabad. The real owners of this conflict getting filthy rich.
To: Scorpion | Jun 23 2023 22:35 utc | 253
Do you have a good article source for that notion? I don’t recall reading that idea anywhere else before. Intriguing…
===
Or he knows who owns Russia, Chabad and he is part of it. Don’t tell me he is not making some dough
for himself and on top of it he is trolling us – one way or another.
Just another idea.
Shalom.

Posted by: C | Jun 23 2023 22:47 utc | 236

On topic, I kind of feared pentagon AI could lead to some brilliant tactics and strategies. But then I remembered how stupid these people are, and how much they like to sniff their own farts, and how their models said there would be no snow on Kilimanjaro by 2015 and the put up signs in Gkacier National Park saying the glaciers would be gone by 2017.
Also, we only had five years left on June 21, 2018, according to the fetal alcohol syndrome savant greta Thunberg. Even though we are all dead now from global warming as of yesterday, it still seems the Pentagon kept killing their chicken AI until its entrails said success was certain.
And of course, the ukros, who love their new television stations set up after 2014, because they are 15 years behind, thought, “Hey, its US computers, and the west is awesome at everything, including tranny surgeries and pop music singing contests, so lets trust their computer simulations and charge into the kill zones! After all the m777s and Himars and Patriot batteries are invincible!”
And now they are fertilizer and vegetables.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 22:48 utc | 237

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 23 2023 21:19 utc | 189
If true, the 1:1 dead wounded ratio is suggestive of: blast injuries by thermobarics, large bombs, targeting of IFV’s/APC’s, pre-debussing, using powerful HE/HEAT warheads and a lack of Casevac capability.
As for Prigozhin’s usual tirade, it could be psy-ops, but it could be bashing a competitor (the Russian State), whilst also blaming them for his failings.

Posted by: Milites | Jun 23 2023 22:50 utc | 238

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 22:01 utc | 221
Yup. Where are all the guys here proclaiming that the NATO Air Defender 23 was going to be the cover for a massive attack on Russia? Any of them admitting they were wrong? I thought not.
I said it was bullshit then, and it remains bullshit now.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 23 2023 22:51 utc | 239

They boasted about downing a plane three days before mh 117. OMG proof Russians can see into the future!
You got a reputable link proving Russians can see into the future?

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 22:51 utc | 240

schkid # 22:37 utc | 255

B
The given photo is fake news.

Yes, but it is the best fake news seen so far today.
And what’s more it is vastly more accurate that the standard tosh from that site.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 23 2023 22:53 utc | 241

Posted by: jpc | Jun 23 2023 17:31 utc | 5
Exactly.
In the past, Europeans blamed some crimes on ‘the Russian mafia’ Yes, the hoods spoke Russian, but they were Ukrainian gangsters who spoke Russian, or what sounded like Russian to them. Europeans made no distinction, and in their general racism towards Russia, found it easier to blame Russia.
The mission of the SMO was the demilitarization and denazification of Ukraine, and that proceeds apace.
But the fleeing Nazis will connect with the already-established Ukrainian mobs in Europe, and then all of Europe will need a disinfectant for decades.
There is a parallel with the black market weapons. I suspect that NATO officials had been hustling weapons into the black market the past. Now the western weapons sent to Ukraine with no accounting for them will appear everywhere there is armed conflict. So in effect NATO will have armed a lot of bad actors in our future.

Posted by: Richard Whitney | Jun 23 2023 22:55 utc | 242

265 –
LOL more utterly meaningless attribution free allegations. Tell us, these “witnesses” saw a missile strike MH17 as per your most recent Russian language excerpt, correct?
Have you ever stood on the ground and watched a plane flying at 33,000ft in altitude? Could you see a missile strike a plane flying that high and if so could you see anything clearly enough to know what happened, let alone be standing at a vantage point where you could see not only the initial strike, but where the plane eventually came down?
Again, go read up at Dances With Bears. All of this has already been broken down in minute detail for many years. You can even search the post and comment history here at MoA, but you won’t because you’re a worthless NAFO BRO CONCERN TROLL™.
Go watch the video I just provided.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 22:55 utc | 243

as b has referred to ..

“… The real world results are now in. The Ukrainian counter-offensive has failed. ..!

OK – so far may today – But that’s not yet the “quite’ final statements, either sides has made!
The “final states” of either by NAZI-Gov in Kiew nor the RF-Military Commanders could be a solution of currently on-going deadly combat !
“YOU” have to kill one of those war-frie3ndly guys, just as Joe or “Hunter” Biden, resp. of their and “those” “backgrounds'”.
If not yet have shut-down those guys, “You” won’t be lucky – any more! Search a SNIPER against “those crmiminal persons”, each sponsored by a 100.999 bn Dollars if having success on that a necessarily very out-standing “Action” – OK here mentioned on MoA?
There would be no “other result to do”, neither against Hunter+
Joe.B rather than to destroy the South-USA “font” near Mexdico and ‘Cuba.
CIA, pls. listen: You just have lost a “small” influence on affecting Cuba Gov. decicions .. Pls. wait what China and his ever-installed Mr. X-Pi-Ing. has said:
Your’r welcome ewery days in our homeland as a friend – but never once-more with a “demand” backed by any military “actions”. The “Taiwan Street” is based on China.
So it is today, Piano-Cock Player (Elendski) is in a difficult role to decide, resp. acc.to his own physical life to “go on” with any announced Counter-Offensive.
Not to understand, Mr. Elendski – so-called PM of UKR – won’t never survife followed by Snipers . .. neither in Florida or elsewhere .. Keep UKR Soldiers ALIVE ..!

Posted by: spare_truth | Jun 23 2023 22:55 utc | 244

Well, looks like the West got to Wagner’s chief with a nice pile of cash. Loyalty to country disappears when the US throws those dollar bills around. RIP Russia.

Posted by: bored | Jun 23 2023 22:57 utc | 245

@inkan1969
You think that battering ram strategy is a winning one?
Don’t known what organisation you troll for.
But it’s disregard for human life is impressive.

I believe the truly pertinent question here today is who are YOU trolling for? I think I already know after reading several of your tediously tendentious posts, but go ahead and attempt an answer anyway….if you can.

Posted by: Jack Gordon | Jun 23 2023 22:58 utc | 246

This site really doesn’t like external links anymore.
To the NAFO troll: r umble-dot-com/ v28jt3y-mh-17-in-search-of-truth.html
It debunks everything you’re saying. Remove spaces, begin with h t t p s : / / and change the “dot” to a .

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 23:00 utc | 247

Lol “bored” and the NAFO bronies actually thinks Wagner is going to start a civil war in Russia.
Being wrong and embarrassed every day is nothing new to these people, more like some sick humiliation fetish.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 23:00 utc | 248

@Tom QCollins
Inkanazi 1969 has been literally following me around the net, from here to my site [where I stopped reading his replies, let alone approve then for publication], to Awful Avalanche. Ludicrously he even went to Martyanov to whine about me, which is stupid on multiple levels. This is either lunatic behaviour or he does it for pay.
He’s not a “concern troll”, by the way, he’s an outright nazi lover. I challenged him back in April or so last year to go join his fellow nazis in the trenches. Of course he didn’t.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 23 2023 23:02 utc | 249

Posted by: Roger | Jun 23 2023 22:34 utc | 248:

Let’s remember that Ukraine/Russia is a side show for the US/Western elites versus the main event of Taiwan/China.

Thank you for your reply. I hear you loud and clear. There is merit in the view that Empire’s ultimate target is Cathay, Russia is just an irritant in the way of its final destination. The irritant nature of Russia lies in Russia’s arsenal of nukes and its expansive geography. But they made the mistake of treating Russia as a hopeless “once-been” back in the early 90’s and forfeited the opportunity of drawing Russia into their camp. Actually, Lee Kuan Yew of Singapore once criticized the west for underestimating Russia, saying that it is indeed a brilliant and proud nation. Lee was right! But anyway, it is today, and West lost its chance of driving a permanent wedge between China and Russia. Today, even if the West wins this slug-fast, Russia’s nukes can still be a comrade of China’s defense against the final Sino-West show down.
Don’t underestimate China though. Even without Russia as an ally in arms, China is today confident of facing the whole f**king west in a confrontation, economically, politically, AND militarily. Unlike the west, China has no aspiration to venture more than 1500 miles beyond it’s borders to conquer land or resources, unlike the West. In its own neighborhood, it is confident in facing the RoW if necessary, and win, with the exception that Russia be not part of that RoW. And China’s power in all aspects are still rising, 2-5% more per annum than the west plus its consorts. So, I am aware of the Sinaphobic nature of the west but ain’t the least bit worry. I believe my ancestral land has advanced to the point of unconquerable already.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2023 23:03 utc | 250

Where is the US military’s claimed satellite video evidence of the MH17 missile strike?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 23:03 utc | 251

The solution to Boris Johnson , and all other liars, is to reverse literally every word they have ever uttered and Never to believe a word they say again.
The same also applies to Wolfovitz and all the Atlantacists who worship him. There is an alternative to the fantasy of Zionism, the fantasy of US , white, hegemony and the utter fantasy of a British Empire2.
All prices have risen because of the destruction of Nordstream. The destruction of Nordstream was because of US defeat by Russia in Syria.
I do know why the US wanted to win in Syria, to block Russia’s access to the Mediterranean.
The British invented a theological lie, that Islam would side with the Jews and Christians, the West, but the West is neither Jewish nor Christian in terms of values.
I don’t know why the Muslims swallowed the fly. It is now clear that the West doesn’t care if its proxies are worshippers of God or Thor. If the Muslims had spared one second to remember their own history, they would have remembered all the byegone porkies of all the centuries of Western lies.
I don’t know why they swallowed the fly. Perhaps they’ll die. In a nuclear exchange emanating from their
support for the West in Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya and Syria against the Great Game obsession by the West against Russia. Please stop listening to British lies. Thanks.

Posted by: Giyane | Jun 23 2023 23:04 utc | 252

Also @Tom Q Collins 278
Not just that, “successfully posted comments” without links disappear quite handily. One of mine just did.
It gets really annoying when one spent half an hour or more on the comment and didn’t copy it before posting.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 23 2023 23:06 utc | 253

Things should never have gotten this far. It was obvious weeks ago that Prigozhin was distraught and out of control. It has also been obvious to me that the senior leadership of the Russian MoD…ie Shoigu and Gerasimov are guilty of gross negligence and incompetence. Russia has been winning despite them, not because of them. Surovikin had to pull their chestnuts out of the fire once already and now look at what they have wrought. This is what happens when you play with peoples lives instead of waging war. The lights should be out in Ukraine, their bridges and RR systems should have been destroyed long ago, their command centers should be smoking ruins, but they are not. Because if it Russian soldiers die everyday in a war that could have, should have, already been won.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 23 2023 23:08 utc | 254

Lol “bored” and the NAFO bronies actually thinks Wagner is going to start a civil war in Russia.
Being wrong and embarrassed every day is nothing new to these people, more like some sick humiliation fetish.
Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 23:00 utc | 279
Tell that to Surovikin. He just begged Wagner to “stop the columns.” See @259. Meanwhile…
Yevgeny Prigozhin, the head of the infamous Wagner paramilitary group, vowed a “march of justice” to root out the “evil” behind what he claimed was a Russian missile strike on his troops, sparking talk of civil conflict within Russia.
“This is not a military coup, this is a march of justice,” Prigozhin said in videos released on Friday. “Our actions do not impede the troops.”
“The evil that the military leadership of the country brings forward must be stopped. They have forgotten the word ‘justice,’ and we will return it,” he raged, but never directly mentioned Russian President Vladimir Putin.
“Anyone attempting resistance will be considered a threat and immediately destroyed. This includes all the checkpoints on our path and any aircraft above our heads,” he added, noting that his battle-hardened troops possess anti-aircraft missiles along with tanks and other heavy equipment.
https://www.mediaite.com/news/russian-paramilitary-leader-vows-25000-troop-march-of-justice-on-moscow-to-confront-evil-behind-ukraine-war/

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 23:09 utc | 255

cf. prigo (&wagner)
if it is not a psy-ops…and it dusn’t look like,
then Russia is having serious problem right now and this is bad news.
Russian HQ is asking wagner to “stop the column” (?already moving columns?!), while AFU is trying to take advantage of situation in bakhmut
all this smells very bad, for the future of all
remains to hope for some psyops, wherever it comes from…

Posted by: Tak-Tik | Jun 23 2023 23:09 utc | 256

Sour who posts here has evidently gone as bonkers as Prigozhin. Either that or he’s just another Ukie troll looking for something, anything, other than the catastrophic “counteroffensive” to talk about.

Posted by: Jack Gordon | Jun 23 2023 23:10 utc | 257

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 23:00 utc | 279
Even Russian Telegram channels and news sites are reporting something big is brewing over there regarding Prigozhin. RT news itself is saying FSB is investigating his calls for armed rebellion. This is huge and not in a good way.

Posted by: bored | Jun 23 2023 23:10 utc | 258

Re: Wagner coup?

I just found a site telling of a civil war begun in Russia, and in Ukraine at the front. The Wagner forces are turning on the Russian Army, and have been attacking civil authority inside Russia, already violent and dangerous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMWjYTRkgfA
Posted by: medo | Jun 23 2023 22:40 utc | 257

I just happened to open Twitter and saw these “United States trends”:

  1. Wagner – Trending with Prigozhin, #Russia
  2. Moscow – Trending with Wagner Group, #Russia

Are Americans really this interested in what happens in Moscow, or is this trend just a spam attack by NAFO bots?
I am very suspicious of all these Western claims about Prigozhin and Wagner. The whole story smells like a Western disinformation operation.

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 23 2023 23:10 utc | 259

unimperator # 22:32 utc | 247

Yeah. Bakhmut was a grinder. It was meant to kill off AFU best troops for the cost of some conscripts, who are now unavailable for any other ops. The whole affair is cynical, acknowledged. Very cynical. Zelensky took the bait. Now this Zaporozhye adventure is another disaster but on an even larger scale.

Thank you for that assembly of Prigozhin isms. I guess he has been drinking far too much champaign since he liberated that immense stash.
On the ‘Wagner rebellion’ incident, I figure there are some extremely competent leaders in that organisation and they will see calm prevail. It all strikes me as extraordinary, but then Russia is exactly that.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 23 2023 23:10 utc | 260

284 –
Vasily Prozolov is an ex-SBU whistleblower. If I’m not mistaken he was still employed by SBU at the time of the MH17 shootdown. He debunks the whole story in ~35 minutes at the deconstructed link I provided above (Rumble video). Also, read the series at Dances With Bears. There is simply no plausible scenario where Donbass rebels or the Russian military used a decommissioned model of the Buk system to shoot down MH17 and then returned the launching system to Russia. That was a major basis for the JIT prosecution in the Netherlands and they utter failed to produce (or successfully suppressed contravening) evidence. It was a complete travesty of justice. You can also read this book. I’m done with this topic until you educate yourself on it. https://www.amazon.com/Flight-MH17-Ukraine-new-Cold/dp/1526131099 The book recommendation will also likely disabuse you of several related notions pertaining to the conflict in Ukraine.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 23:11 utc | 261

@ Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 23:03 utc | 282
if they had it, it would have been shown far and wide… i highly recommend this book from 2017 which gives a very thorough overview..
Flight MH17, Ukraine and the new Cold War: Prism of disaster

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2023 23:12 utc | 262

Posted by: Jack Gordon | Jun 23 2023 23:10 utc | 290
Prigozhin is the only thing and hope they can grab on, since everything else is going in the crapper for AFU with absolutely asymmetric force and firepower ratios, training, morale and experience skewed for RF.

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 23 2023 23:13 utc | 263

The US claimed for years that they had satellite evidence of the MH17 downing.
https://johnhelmer.net/us-satellite-photos-revealed-at-last-now-they-incriminate-the-dutch-police-prosecutors-and-judges-in-the-mh17-show-trial/

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 23:13 utc | 264

@ Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 23:11 utc | 295
lol.. cross posted… great suggestion tom! cheers..

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2023 23:13 utc | 265

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2023 23:12 utc | 296
Yep. Thanks for re-iterating that recommendation. Obviously our new pet won’t be reading it, but it’s an excellent and well researched/meticulously footnoted work of history.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 23:14 utc | 266

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 20:26 utc | 149
Ukrops: “Shit, this counteroffensive isn’t working. Maybe we need to rethink this?”
Prigozhin: “^%#$^#^$&%*^!!!”
Ukrops: “Oh sweet! The Russians are killing each other! Let’s take advantage of that and charge into the kill zone again!”
Russian MoD: “Ah, that’s much better. Grinder operating at capacity once more.”
===============================
That’s my take too, though confess I don’t much follow the kinetics, mainly just enjoying b’s regular, trenchant analysis.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 23 2023 23:14 utc | 267

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 23 2023 23:10 utc | 292
“Are Americans really this interested in what happens in Moscow, or is this trend just a spam attack by NAFO bots?”
If a Russian military leader says “I am going to lead 25,000 men in a march on Moscow” that’s kind of a big deal.
“I am very suspicious of all these Western claims about Prigozhin and Wagner. The whole story smells like a Western disinformation operation.”
Led by those well-known agents of Western misinformation, Tass, the FSB, and General Surovikin.

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 23:18 utc | 268

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 23:11 utc | 294
> Probably the best joke about Prigozhin so far
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzV8PVgWIAEzOh_?format=jpg&name=large
LMAO

Posted by: hopehely | Jun 23 2023 23:20 utc | 269

Thanks to b and thanks to all who ignore those who don’t stick to the subject of this post. That will make it easier for b to do a cleanup when he has time.
Take your time, b. And thanks again.

Posted by: juliania | Jun 23 2023 23:20 utc | 270

Maybe it’s time to release the photos of “Lady G” and Prigozhin partying with Epstein … that would explain the rebellion in Mockba tonight.
Also Russia is still out of missiles.
Putin still has cancer, Parkinson’s, is in hiding and has had a heart attack nearly everyday. He’s near death. Probably true.
The Russians sank the Titanic sub with one of their nuclear torpedoes.
The trolls – some new names too – with their scripted and gee-gosh-golly whatabout Prigozhin retorts. I thought that they were better at propaganda than today’s efforts seem to reveal.

Posted by: Just Observing | Jun 23 2023 23:21 utc | 271

Hey sour, i dont care what you write or say. I dont care about your supposed vanishing posts that say they said it was another, i dont care about your narrative, and even IF Donetsk did accidentally shoot down mh 117, I dont care.
I dont care about Saddams weapons of mass Destruction, Ghaddafis viagra rape squads, Saddam throwing babies out of incubators and kicking them down the floor, the civil war avoided in America on Jan 6th, 2020, the raping of Jessica Lynch, the Gulf of Tonkin, Russian Missiles landing in Poland, Trump being a Russian Asset, the Bucha massacre, Covid killing 20 million Americans as a best case scenario, Assad using chemical weapons that a CNN reporter would sniff a deep breath of to smell them, The battle of Manila, the lone gunman killing JFK, Crazy Mossadegh, all the world turning communist if the Viet Cong win,Noriega’s cocaine cartel, Hunter Bidens multi million dollar artistic skills and energy company credentials, “not one inch eastward”, the sinking of the Cheonan by a submarine whose nation was not named to save embarrassment, and most of all, I don’t remember the USS Maine.
I dont fucking care whatever shit you throw. Its all shit and I dont care.
I do remember the Bodo League Massacre, the Tuskeegee experiments, the Guatamalen prisoner experiments, the election frauds of 2000 and 2020, the August 2001 brief given to condaleeza Rice saying Bin Laden determined to Attack America and the killing of fired FBI agent John O’Neil, the Maidan coup, Iran Air flight 655 and the captain of the Vincennes getting a medal from Reagan for shooting it down…
Shall I go on? Be ause there are a million lies you can try to tell me I dont give one flying fuck about, and a million truths that you dont care about.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 23:22 utc | 272

Re Wagner, Prigozhin just trying to inflate his political chances by pretending that without Wagner Russia is on the verge of defeat. He’s not the real commander anyway. The real Wagner commanders are all Russian regular military officers on deputation and they report to Surovikin. They aren’t going to launch a coup even if Prigozhin tells them to.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 23 2023 23:23 utc | 273

Zelensky cancels Ukraine elections:

Zelensky said that the next elections will be only after the war. That is, for him, the war is a reason to sit further in power. That is, no one should wait for any negotiations.

Source:https://t.me/grusha_news/7479
In Russian or the pretend ukraine.
That’s our NATO hero for ya.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 23 2023 23:23 utc | 274

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 23:00 utc | 279
“more like some sick humiliation fetish.”
I was just musing myself about “conspiracy theorists” and how amazing is it that every conspiracy is run by people who never ever make mistakes. Therefore the conspiracy can not be detected by anyone in the world except the conspiracy theorist.
Psychologically, of course, this means the conspiracy theorist is someone who is so full of himself that he imagines he is the only one with the intelligence and perspicacity to detect these conspiracies despite their unparalleled record of being run so perfectly that no one but himself can detect “the truth”.
In other words, it’s narcissism on a massive scale. And the more people they get to buy into their bullshit, the bigger the narcissism becomes.
This also applies to Prigozhin. He has “celebrity-itis” on the brain. First by being feted world-wide as “Putin’s chef”, which was complete bullshit at its base, and then by being appointed – big mistake on someone’s part – the front man for the Wagner group, which in reality was established and controlled by the Russian intelligence services, with the agreement of the Ministry of Defense, to serve as a deniable military asset in various regions of the world where the Russians wanted to have some influence or derail the West’s influence.
Which in particular makes hash of this current nonsense – as the actual leadership of Wagner, the people controlling the Wagner forces, are ALL died-in-the-wool Russian military officers. Prigozhin has absolutely zero control of the Wagner forces.
Morons here don’t appear able to grasp that, because their narcissism requires them to interpret Prigozhin as some sort of “psyops expert” as opposed to just being a nutball who the Russians probably are now admitting was a big mistake as a choice to front the Wagner group.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 23 2023 23:25 utc | 275

@uncle tungsten 310
That’s how you know Ukranazistan is winnnnnniiiiiinnngggg.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 23 2023 23:25 utc | 276

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 23:15 utc | 302
Could you kindly give us a summary of how you view Russia, Ukraine and the SMO? You seem to have a very pointed view with considerable levels of details.
My personal feeling is that although it seems generally true to say that NATO forced a confrontation and Russia tried generally to avoid one, the idea that a Great State like Russia acts only out of Orthodox Christian beneficence, and almost infallibly to boot, seems like a bridge too far, at least for this ignoramus thousands of miles away.
I also suspect, or perhaps should just say imagine, that behind the facade of constructs like ‘NATO,’ ‘The West,’ ‘Ukraine,’ ‘Russia,’ ‘Putin,’ ‘Elensky,’ ‘Biden,’ ‘Xi’ and ‘China’ etc. are more particular, often inter-conflicted, skeins of power, many of them internationally linked who are really driving things often with agendas not covered at all in the official or alternative media, making the SMO we are groping to see quite different than most conceive.
But that could all be wrong as well of course.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 23 2023 23:27 utc | 277

young | Jun 23 2023 21:35 utc | 201
***The current escalation will eventually end. How do you think it will end?***
Probably with Starmer as Prime Minister, Mordaunt as leader of the alleged “opposition”, and Von der Leyen as Secretary General of NATO.
A synthetically facilitated Joe Biden as US President after a blatantly rigged US “election”. Maybe with an LGBTQ+++ Vice President.
And meanwhile, the puppet governments of EU / NATO countries adopting laws (on matters including gender, ethnography, reading and even thinking) similar to those the Sturgeon regime almost pushed through in Scotland …
That in turn will pretty much terminate *all* possibility of serious discussion or dissent about political and social matters — while making removal of these laws impossible, since even seeming to want to abolish them would have automatically become illegal and subject to very severe punishment.
As for the part of the war pesently happening within Ukraine / Russia — reckon that unless the EU collapses, the above horrors will be imposed in “the West” whichever side wins.

Posted by: Cynic | Jun 23 2023 23:30 utc | 278

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 23:20 utc | 305
> If other Russian units occupying Ukraine follow “Wagner’s” example and return home, the war will be over.
Much better if Ukraine surrenders. The war will be over for sure.

Posted by: hopehely | Jun 23 2023 23:31 utc | 279

Is there any video, anywhere that shows Wagner moving?
Is this just a big hoax? Being run by some clever AI somewhere?
Who knows what to believe on this….

Posted by: Tim2 | Jun 23 2023 23:31 utc | 280

There aint gonna be no civil war in Russia. Get a grip.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 23:32 utc | 281

Biswapriya Purkayast # 23:25 utc | 313

That’s how you know Ukranazistan is winnnnnniiiiiinnngggg.

Exactly that brother, and all they needed was a little help from their French friends:

The French 155-mm self-propelled gun “Caesar” at full speed on the track evades the kamikaze UAV, but the driver loses control and the self-propelled gun goes into a skid with a rollover.
A little later, the second drone finished off the French street racers.

source: https://t.me/intelslava/49147
For those without telegram – I pity you as it is a good vid and bound to appear on twatter soon.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 23 2023 23:33 utc | 282

Address of General Surovikin and Lieutenant General Alekseev V.S. to the commanders and fighters of PMC “Wagner
https://twitter.com/Sprinter99880/status/1672356082889502722
https://twitter.com/TranslateMom/status/1672364345357922305/video/1 for English subtitles
https://twitter.com/TranslateMom/status/1672365349000314880 also with subtitles
Posted by: Manage without me | Jun 23 2023 22:27 utc | 240
———————————————
Talk about a bunch of CIA/ NED horseshit. I Really like this line: “There was no use of weapons against your units [I assume Wanger], and there never will be. We just needed to start a civil war.”
Most people here at MoA will not fall for that shit, though many people around the world will.

Posted by: Ed | Jun 23 2023 23:33 utc | 283

I appreciate John Helmer’s work on MH-17, referenced above. That Ukronazi war crime, facilitated as it be by the entire full-spectrum-dominance mind-control machine, contains the fertile seed of our current, apparently irreversible, tumble into perdition.
Shouldn’t it be perfectly obvious that to facilitate terrorism in this way — as John Kerry and practically all US Americans have done over MH-17 — is to keep it going, indefinitely? To people charged with sensibly caring for children and other living things, such moral principles should be perfectly obvious. No conscious adult can plausibly plead innocence, regarding where this is headed, now that AFU’s counteroffensive is stuck.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 23 2023 23:33 utc | 284

cf Wagner
it’s not about trolling, check RT home page, top news are:
-Top Russian general sends message to ’mutinous’ Wagner PMC
-Ukraine attempts to retake Artyomovsk after Prigozhin ‘provocation’ – MOD
-FSB opens criminal case after Wagner boss calls for ‘armed rebellion’
if psyops, it’s an impressive work

Posted by: Tak-Tik | Jun 23 2023 23:35 utc | 285

Posted by: Petri Krohn | Jun 23 2023 23:10 utc | 292

Re: Wagner coup?
I just found a site telling of a civil war begun in Russia, and in Ukraine at the front.

Wagner and Prighozin are the only apparent weaknesses in the Russian “information armour” NAFO can find.
In decades of trying to find some propaganda angle on Putin, Patrushev, Shoigu … They’ve come up with nothing.
Prighozin provides much fertile distraction for these fools.
A single dancing jester drawing the power of the entire Western propaganda machine to a single point.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 23 2023 23:37 utc | 286

Sour’s NGO got the boot from Russia, and now he is sour.
Sour also claims he speaks Ukrainian. Need I say more?

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 23:41 utc | 287

As someone who spend considerable amount of time in America I find America as a failed state run by a 80 years old autocratic leader, with corrupt and demoralized security services and infantile society, almost entirely stripped of its subjectivity. Most of today’s issues can be explained by the former: an elderly leader who developed a megalomania and suffers from severe cognitive biases. There’s nothing more cynical than an ex-rapist attending a tranny book reading for children , and speaking of “our democracy” in a country with one of the highest HIV, abortion and divorce rates in the world.

Posted by: nook | Jun 23 2023 23:42 utc | 288

US has declared Prigozhin as legitimate President of Russia and the US$300 billion Russian assets frozen in the west is given to Prigozhin to fund his Army of liberation!

Posted by: Surferket | Jun 23 2023 23:43 utc | 289

Tim2 # 23:31 utc | 318
“Who knows what to believe on this….”
There is all manner of videos on telegram but they are just that – videos.
See here:https://t.me/grusha_news/7485
and scroll up for speeches in Russian from those mentioned by Ed # 23:33 321
I have no idea if these Wagner tantrums are real or even a breakaway faction or if the criminals have taken over the prison or whatever. I just remain calm and confident that Russia can easily scratch the itch on its rump.
What is very real is the frontline and the defeat of Ukraine terrorists and nazis. There Russia is doing a mighty fine job and so one might expect all manner of blow up distractions, fraught mental collapses and loss of reason all over the place.
Such is war and national emergencies and struggle.

Posted by: uncle tungsten | Jun 23 2023 23:44 utc | 290

# @karlof1 #230
“But who are the “reputable authorities”?”
Declan Hayes cannot answer this at the mo. Neither can I. All I can say is that it is certainly not ‘the rules based international order’.
# I’m assuming, and I know assumptions are dangerous, that NATO and Western political leaders knew full well that this so called ‘counter-offensive’ had no hope of success – success for these means the continuing demonisation of Russian Federation in its controlled propagandized Western MSM (impression-management writ-very-large), complete subjugation of Europe to NATO inc. US weaponry and making Europe pay for it, weakening of Germany, another Trillion a year for US MIC, maintenance of neo-con power in Washington, and pleasing its 30 Trillion masters in Blackrock. I’m open to rebuttal …
# Prigozhin is a dyed-in-the-wool fan of Oscar Wilde …
“The only thing worse than being talked about,is not being talked about at all.” …. “The suspense is killing; I hope it lasts.”
# @all the poor ordinary Ukrainians mobilized for the power hungry neo-cons and the greed driven blackrockers et al. – rise up, you have nothing to lose except your lives – to mutiny against your nazi quisling leadership is to save your lives.
# I rest my case.

Posted by: Don Firineach | Jun 23 2023 23:45 utc | 291

@Greg Galloway @ 176
Not to mention the Ukies’ various attempts to introduce incriminating pieces of SA-11 debris they ‘discovered in the wreckage of MH-17’, including but not limited to a dented and bent missile body itself. As you have correctly pointed out, the main body and fuselage glided about another 30 km from the spot where it was stricken before crashing to earth. And somewhere back where it was hit is where missile debris would be, if there was any, not in the wreckage of the plane miles away. The SA-11 explosion is triggered by a proximity fuse, and the warhead itself never comes in contact with the target except for the fragments it bursts into when it explodes. The missile body of the weapon that killed the Boeing would be in the wreckage, in this instance, only if it somehow flew alongside in sympathetic companionship until the plane hit the ground. In the real world it would have fallen back to earth about 30 km from the wreck site.
I discussed this in detail, not for the first time, back in the Spring of 2020, here:
https://thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com/2020/05/23/trial-by-blockhead/

Posted by: Mark | Jun 23 2023 23:46 utc | 292

“Things were in a state of confusion in the Oblonsky household.”

Posted by: Matador | Jun 23 2023 23:46 utc | 293

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 23:18 utc | 303

and General Surovikin.

Along with the rest of your bullshit, you should be aware that Surovikhin has never been a propaganda operative.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 23 2023 23:47 utc | 294

Posted by: Mark | Jun 23 2023 23:46 utc | 331
Great link: people should peruse.
I repost it
https://thenewkremlinstooge.wordpress.com/2020/05/23/trial-by-blockhead/

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 23 2023 23:50 utc | 295

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 23:35 utc | 324
You sound like a sour Russian Jew. Amazing how you all say and repeat the same trope.
Are you clones, or you all get the same brain implant?
And btw, Ukraine is 100x worse, so why are rooting for it then?

Posted by: hopehely | Jun 23 2023 23:50 utc | 296

Posted by: Ludovic | Jun 23 2023 18:10 utc | 28
Think about this…. How much does the Russian media Cover him?…..

Posted by: Woodenhue | Jun 23 2023 23:50 utc | 297

Uncle Tungsten 320
Notice how the cars on the highway don’t even slow down to see what’s happening, let alone stop to help the injured soldiers. They’re probably scared to death of being conscripted on the spot.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 23 2023 23:50 utc | 298

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 23:35 utc | 324
@315
As someone who spend considerable amount of time in Russia I find Russia as a failed state run by a 70 years old autocratic leader, with corrupt and demoralized security services and infantile society, almost entirely stripped of its subjectivity. …There’s nothing more cynical than an ex-KGB official attending an Orthodox mass served by an ex-KGB informant….
==============================
Ha! Well, don’t pull any punches, eh?! That sounds about how most cynically minded Westerners view their polities. No doubt there are many in China would express themselves similarly too.
Well, if you are right, they still have one thing over the West right now: they are sure putting on a better show!
But there are clear signs of progress in Russia under Putin, no? Financial, international influence, consistency of impressive geopolitical policies and so forth. I can’t see any of that looking at the States. But that said, again I generally find descriptions of those perceived as heroes over the top, no matter which side of whatever controversy they happen to be representing. The truth, in politics as in life, is usually found in a much dirtier, muddled middle zone.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 23 2023 23:51 utc | 299

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 23:35 utc | 324
——————————————————
Why do you spend so much time in Russia?

Posted by: Ed | Jun 23 2023 23:51 utc | 300