Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 23, 2023
The Ukrainian Counter-Offensive Had No Chance. NATO Failed To Explain That.

The 'west' pushed Ukraine into a hopeless counter-offensive based on false assessments and wild expectations.

Russian troops were claimed to be weak, untrained and unprepared for an Ukrainian attack. On the other side it was claimed that the freshly mobilized Ukrainian men which received 'western' weapons and training would have the necessary quantity and quality to overcome Russian defenses.

Ukrainian troops, as well as the public, were told to believe that bullshit.

Lord Bebo @MyLordBebo – 0:55 UTC · Jun 23, 2023

NATO training explained by an Ukrainian POW
-> Psychologists trained them to not be afraid and that Russia is exhausted and weak …
Embedded video From Maimunka News


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Any rational and neutral military assessment showed a far more realistic picture. One in which Russia would always defeat the planned counter-offensive.

At the end of 2022 the Ukrainian army had been exhausted and had been already been destroyed twice. The Russians had first destroyed large parts of the original equipment of the Ukrainian army and then the Soviet era equipment that was brought to Ukraine from former Warsaw Pact nations.

More importantly they had killed or wounded many of the experienced non-commissioned staff (Sergeants etc) and lower rank officers of the Ukrainian military that command and are the core of each company. The newly mobilized Ukrainian forces did not have the knowledge or training necessary to replace them.

'Western' equipment is more complex than Soviet era stuff.  It also requires more specialized maintenance. The Ukraine received a zoo. The many types of equipment and the many incompatible kinds of ammunition they use are a logistic nightmare.

'Western' training for the mobilized Ukrainian forces did not bring up more capable soldiers than Soviet training would have done. Those who watched NATO stumble in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya should have recognized that.

Russian on the other side mobilized 300,000 soldiers who mostly had been contract soldiers before they had returned to private life. They received extensive refresher training. They now mostly get paid more than in their civilian life which certainly helped to increase their motivation.

Russia also changed the structure of its military. The main Russian fighting force in 2022 was made up of Brigade Tactical Groups (BIG). Each of them was part of a garrison brigade which next to the one contract soldier BTG had additional battalions that were mostly training conscripts. Under Russian laws the conscript battalions could not be used on foreign ground.

The fighting BTG's had few real infantry soldiers. Next to their 9 infantry platoons they had 8 artillery and 5 auxiliary platoons. Of a total of some 800 plus soldiers in a BTG only 200 were actually infantry that could man the trenches. The whole structure was too big and too difficult to command.

After the mobilization had brought up enough men the Russian military changed from BTGs to a mobile brigade structure. Under a higher commander the brigade holds two or three battalions that each consist of three or four companies of mobile infantry or tanks. Most of the artillery and auxiliary troops of the former BTGs are now concentrated under the brigade structure and can be used more flexible wherever they are needed. The tooth to tail ratio in the frontline battalions is now much higher than in a BTG and the whole structure is easier to command.

Above the newly structured brigades are now division commands which have additional assets like air defenses, attack helicopters and electronic warfare units. They direct the brigades within a wider front and with a bigger picture in mind.

While a lack of contract infantry necessitated the BTG structure of 2022 the additionally mobilized forces allowed in 2023 to return to the more efficient classic structures of battalions under brigades under divisions. All this was visible through the reports from the Russian military which had stopped to mention BTGs and changed to brigade numbers. For an unbiased military mind it was easy to see that this new Russian force would be a more balanced and better one.

Satellite pictures had shown for months that the Russian troops were building extensive defense structures like trench lines and anti-tank barriers. They are by the way still adding to them.

In the spring of 2023 the Ukrainian army was much weaker than when the war started. The Russian military had grown and was stronger. It also had well prepared positions. 'Western' politicians, the propagandized public and military commands failed to recognize those facts.

NATO had simulated the Ukrainian counter-offensive:

Logic dictates that any responsible use of the KORA simulation system would have predicted the failure of the 47th Brigade’s attack. According to The Washington Post, the officers of the 47th Brigade “planned their assaults and then let the [KORA] program show them the results – how their Russian enemies might respond, where they could make a breakthrough and where they would suffer losses.” The KORA simulation allowed the Ukrainian officers to coordinate their actions “to test how they’d work together on the battlefield.”

Given that the Ukrainian force structure was insufficient to accomplish the mission-critical task of suppression, there was no chance for the Ukrainian forces to accomplish the actual assault requirements of a breaching operation – the destruction of enemy forces on the opposite side of the obstacle barrier being breached. The Ukrainians, however, came away from their KORA experience confident that they had crafted a winning plan capable of overcoming the Russian defenses in and around Orekhov.

When one examines the structure of a KORA-based simulation, it becomes clear that the system is completely dependent upon the various inputs which define the simulation as a whole.

They probably thought the Ukrainians could actually win. But when one uses wrong estimates for the fighting powers of each side as input of a simulation the output will always be garbage.

The real world results are now in. The Ukrainian counter-offensive has failed.


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The weekend edition of the German business daily headlines: "This isn't a counter-offensive. It is a bloody crash test."

It is now time to acknowledge that the 'western' military assessments and its expectations were completely wrong:

In its early phases, Ukraine’s counteroffensive is having less success and Russian forces are showing more competence than western assessments expected, two western officials and a senior US military official tell CNN.

The counteroffensive is “not meeting expectations on any front,” one of the officials said.

According to the Western assessments, Russian lines of defense have been proving well-fortified, making it difficult for Ukrainian forces to breach them. In addition, Russian forces have had success bogging down Ukrainian armor with missile attacks and mines and have been deploying air power more effectively.

Ukrainian forces are proving “vulnerable” to minefields and Russian forces “competent” in their defense, one of the Western officials said.

Even the neoconservative Institute for the Study of War was forced to eat some tiny bits of craw and to acknowledge the competence of the Russian forces:

The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) responded to the Ukrainian attack with an uncharacteristic degree of coherency and praised Southern Military District elements for repelling the attack and regaining lost positions.

Anyone who thinks that coherency is uncharacteristic for the Russians should go back and read up on Operation Bagration which showed what a well prepared Russian military can actually do.

ISW also writes:

Russian forces appear to have executed their formal tactical defensive doctrine in response to the Ukrainian attacks …

Well, what did the ISW 'experts' expect? That the Russians would use their manuals as toilet paper and run away when the turkey shooting begins?

In their utter stupidity the neoconservatives probably really believed that.

The assessments made did not acknowledge the dubious quality of freshly stood up Ukrainian forces. They did not acknowledge the changes and growth in the military structures on the Russian side. They failed to recognize the quality of the Russian fortifications and military capabilities and the deep roots of their doctrine.

The results are the consequence of ignoring reality, of seeing what one wants to see.

The politics of this war demanded that the 'western' side wins. NATO military was biased towards that. Instead of telling the politicians what a realistic outcome would be it delivered hopeful assessments that defied reality.

In consequence the Ukrainian military suffered many unnecessary casualties and lost the initiative.

Let's hope that at least some folks will learn from this.

Comments

The real owners of this conflict getting filthy rich.
Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 19:32 utc | 99

A deal is only as good as its counterparty. When the counterparty can’t deliver nobody gets rich. Usually, just the opposite.

Posted by: too scents | Jun 23 2023 19:36 utc | 101

Zelensky may ‘sacrifice all of Europe’

[Russia’s deputy permanent representative to the UN Dmitry] Polyanskiy said on Twitter that Russia had “just drawn attention to these plans of [the] Kiev regime during the UN Security Council meeting” that morning. “The whole of Europe may be easily sacrificed by Ze and his blind Russophobic sponsors,” he added. “Don’t tell us we didn’t warn you!”

https://www.rt.com/russia/578539-zelensky-nuclear-false-flag/

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 23 2023 19:37 utc | 102

A deal is only as good as its counterparty. When the counterparty can’t deliver nobody gets rich. Usually, just the opposite.
Posted by: too scents | Jun 23 2023 19:36 utc | 106
OK brain, explain the wars in the last century alone? You must be in denial and afraid to be called an antisemite and holocaust dissenter for telling the truth.
Know wonder our world is in the toilet.

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 19:42 utc | 103

christophe nicolas | Jun 23 2023 19:09 utc | 71

Maintenant l’occident dit qu’il va reconstruire l’Ukraine sans l’exploiter…

Hahahahaha ! C’est pas vrai ! Qui a dit ça ?

Posted by: Sarlat La Canède | Jun 23 2023 19:44 utc | 104

It’s like the IJN wargaming their attack on Midway. The simulated Americans kept winning so they changed the rules
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wR_bRz9sYb4&pp=ygUYTWlkd2F5IEphcGFuZXNlIHdhciBnYW1l

Posted by: Skyler the Weird | Jun 23 2023 19:45 utc | 105

Maybe Prigozhin’s job at the moment is motivating CIA and MI5 spies and RF oligarchs and traitors in positions of influence into making a move and revealing themselves? Just throwing shit out there.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jun 23 2023 19:46 utc | 106

I hope NATO falls for Prighozin’s antics as hard as sour is.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 19:47 utc | 107

Matt, Col. Lang’s medical problems began shortly after he received the vaccine, though obviously any causality is coincidental.

Posted by: ISL | Jun 23 2023 19:48 utc | 108

NATO‘s trainers sure believed Priggy ranting the first time around. They taught their troops that Rooskies were demoralized and fighting most themselves. And the highly trained NATO troops were senselessly slaughtered.
Guess Priggy was so successful in duping NATO Intel the first time around, that’s he now doubling down on his rants.
Kinda amusing to see NATO fall for it again

Posted by: Exile | Jun 23 2023 19:48 utc | 109

A number of sources report that after a statement circulated on the Internet allegedly by the head of Wagner PMC Yevgeny Prigozhin about the decision to neutralize internal enemies, including in the leadership of the Ministry of Defense, a military collegium was convened in the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and a general meeting was announced for the central bodies of military control.
At the same time, it is reported that the National Guard and the FSB have been put on high alert..

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 23 2023 19:48 utc | 110

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 19:33 utc | 100
Shitbag, there were two MI6 pederasts present in the days before and the day of the downing of the Malaysian plane in this very area. Check John Helmer’s website for details. Everything else is just a concoction of your mentally defective desire to suck fat Russian dick.

Posted by: Boo | Jun 23 2023 19:50 utc | 111

Posted by: Exile | Jun 23 2023 19:48 utc | 115
Yup and many other motives. Afterall, he does have a powerful PMC that out did any zog PMC.

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 19:51 utc | 112

The real owners of this conflict getting filthy rich.

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 19:32 utc | 99
Ah yes, the filthy rich, measuring their riches in US$; nothing could possibly go wrong with that then…

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 19:52 utc | 113

“All well and good, but you still haven’t explained why Prigozhin is somebody who is actually important. Is he the new war correspondent for the Daily Mail or something?”
West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 19:30 utc | 97
Not just the Daily Mail. He also seems to have a deal going with the BBC. He’s their favorite source of information on Russia at the moment

Posted by: dh | Jun 23 2023 19:53 utc | 114

smoothiex12:
Now, about Prigozhin, I can only reference today’s piece by my friend Marat Khairullin who explains why Prigozhin is hysterical–it is related to his political ambitions–and that appropriate people and orgs in Russia closely monitor situation and that Prigozhin’s fate is largely sealed. He feels it, but being a cook and “businessman” he thinks that going full Girkin will help him–he is very very wrong. But this sense also explains his increasingly hysterical behavior.

Posted by: repost | Jun 23 2023 19:57 utc | 115

To drive out the catastrophic ignorance and arrogance of USA military leaders overall, USA military education awaits systemic upgrade to a very high standard. Here’s an effort to think in that direction:
https://theological-geography.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/New-USA-Military-Education.pdf

Posted by: The Rev. David R. Gr | Jun 23 2023 19:58 utc | 116

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 19:43 utc | 109
I don’t think anyone here is serving in the Russian military right now, so your linked screen name won’t have much effect. But anyway, happen to have a link for the claim that Surovkin was fired and now works for Wagner?
Also, is your boss alive or dead?

Posted by: Lex | Jun 23 2023 19:59 utc | 117

Prigo gonna march north to the Ukro- BelarusianRusso border, post some scenes of his stuff getting bombed by russo air force. Take some payments from nato fools, tell them he is on his way to Moscow, ranting mad..
Prigo be husslin, again…
..and gets paid when Utkin moves SW.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 20:00 utc | 118

An aspect that B and Mr Ritter chose not to discuss is that in western politics (and there is nothing more political than western peacetime military), it can be dangerous to be one the “wrong” side of issues – career-wise or life-wise. Some can pull it -off, most cannot and so would not attempt it, even if there were inclined to make a stand on principle. So military and politics are deeply, purposely unprincipled. So for example, I think there can be no doubt that many of the HATO trainers, understood full well that the Ukrainian prospects were very slim (there’s always a chance, but really). So they gave them a nice send-off and wished best of luck and “kill lots of Russians”-type stuff. But knew full-well those men were pawns in a game and their time was short. That is just how it works and I am pretty sure they did not lose any sleep over it. There are stories of knights and chivalry and stuff – this is not that.
So basically, let’s be real. Or not. Maybe better we continue to talk about the imagined.

Posted by: jared | Jun 23 2023 20:03 utc | 119

So Wagner will now first march onto Moscow, take Shoigu, Gerasimov and whoever gets in their way out and return to the front. Then onwards to Kyev (2 months), Warsaw (2 more months) and finally the English channel (about a week more). Am I getting this right?

Posted by: alek_a | Jun 23 2023 20:04 utc | 120

The so called Ukraine offensive is being done SOLELY for PR purposes.In fact, EVERYTHING that Ukraine has done so far is for PR purposes.

Posted by: Anton Gorbatow | Jun 23 2023 20:06 utc | 121

o basically, let’s be real. Or not. Maybe better we continue to talk about the imagined.
Posted by: jared | Jun 23 2023 20:03 utc | 128
Best comment of the day!
Lets talk peace, we must rise and resist our destruction!

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 20:06 utc | 122

According to the situation at 23-00.
1. To Prigozhin’s accusations of firing at the Wagner PMCs camp and threats to change the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation, the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation and the NAC stated that all this was an informational provocation.
2. Upon Prigozhin’s statements, the FSB opened a criminal case.
3. Putin is aware of the current situation. Some measures are being taken.
4. The NAC demands that all illegal actions be stopped immediately.
5. No facts of the movement of the Wagner columns or any collisions are present.
6. CIPSO throws in a huge number of fakes and misinformation.
7. As reported by “Rybar”, all of Prigozhin’s published messages were recorded at 19-25 and are published in deferred posts.
CC

Posted by: repost | Jun 23 2023 20:08 utc | 123

here’s an English-language source “>https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2023/05/11/why-the-boss-of-wagner-group-is-feuding-with-russias-military-leaders

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 20:01 utc | 127
<Beavis and Butthead laughter soundtrack>
“He said “The Economist
<Beavis and Butthead laughter soundtrack>
Seriously, is that the best you can do for a source??? FFS the quality of trolling has gone downhill. As a British taxpayer forced to fund the likes of 77th Brigade and Bellingcat I demand a full refund!

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 20:10 utc | 124

Posted by: alek_a | Jun 23 2023 20:04 utc | 129
Well, can you blame them? This is how Putin rewards the “Liberators of Artemovsk”.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jun 23 2023 20:11 utc | 125

Sour: Jake Sullivan, is that you? The inability to respond to information that doesn’t conform to your perception bias is illuminating. Russia must be losing therefore Russia is losing..this is what passes for reason in your mind. You cannot accept you are being lied to on an industrial scale, or worse are part of the propagation of said lies, knowingly.
Look, verily, a new hope appears! ‘Wagner knows how to actually fight and has robust Russian equipment! Maybe our Ukrainian fascists aren’t as fucked as we thought?’ So Wagner is part of a putsch now? Laughable, you people need to put down the crack pipe, all the mastrovka has scrambled your brain.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 23 2023 20:12 utc | 126

As it stands now –
The more weapons that the west sends to Ukraine, the more Ukrainians are killed.
Sometimes Putin speaks in ambiguous manner –
Putin said Russia would only choose to use nuclear weapons, if it’s existence were threatened.

Posted by: jared | Jun 23 2023 20:14 utc | 127

Posted by: repost | Jun 23 2023 20:08 utc | 132
He pissed off the jews getting rich off arms sells and the deaths of the goyim. That’s why they’re attacking him. He knows, Every. Single. Time.
Believe it, the most powerful PMC who took over a hard objective for the RF and now ((())) attacked him.
Sounds like Every. Single. Time.
When are you people going to stop being afraid of them?

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 20:17 utc | 128

“In the Kupyansk area <…> local residents are reporting that quite a lot of Western mercenaries have come to reinforce the Ukrainian army. People see that they are not Ukrainians. They hear them speaking Western languages – French, Polish,” – tass.com/defense/1637395

Posted by: rk | Jun 23 2023 20:18 utc | 129

“Anyone who thinks that coherency is uncharacteristic for the Russians should go back and read up on Operation Bagration which showed what a well prepared Russian military can actually do.”
That was 80 years ago… ISW was obviously referring to Russian failures in 2022. It’s like saying the Russians today can’t lose because Alexander Suvorov never lost a battle in the 18th century.

Posted by: Corunar | Jun 23 2023 20:20 utc | 130

informational provocation
informational provocation
informational provocation
informational provocation
Kind of like “up to 90 members of the AFU were destroyed”
Even if 0 members were destroyed, the statement is technically true.
Who is committing this “information provacation”?
Ha ha.
Me thinks the Russian counter offensive begins once Prigo is a few days away from the point i mentioned earlier. Even then, some were proposing an airlift. Very dangerous. But… Not so dangerous deep in Russian borders.
Prigo loses forces on march to Moscow by the unwilling. Prigo “loses forces” from pestering russian attacks. Post videos of destroyed equip, cries and curses RuAF.
Just like Bakhmut, Utkin gets the job done, and follows orders. Prigo flies back to previously mentioned roundez-vous with his rag tag army of justice, and delivers.
informational provocation
Nice one. Cant wait.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 20:22 utc | 131

Aw how cute I see we have two NAFO-Bro-Concern-Trolls™ active here today. We’ve got Inkan1969 (also Yandex or Bing his U/N for more background – Some don’t do very well at cleaning up their breadcrumbs) and “Sour” the moron whose website is a link to a defection page for Russian soldiers. As if any of them would be reading MoA. LMAO! But it does show how much TPTB on the NATO side must be monitoring this site and often participating when things are looking bleak for the Western arms merchants and Ukrainians being used as cannon fodder in order to move more merchandise.
b should be proud that he’s on the radar of such Empire suckups and operatives. It means MoA is getting something right.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 20:23 utc | 132

I confess to not having a clue what the Prigozhin situation is. I see it as highly unlikely that the Russian Army has been shelling his troops. Why should they?
OTOH Prigozhin has been increasingly vocal (and critical) of SMO operation over the last few months and various souls have said “it’s a useful safety valve, Putin gives him a long lead, he’s a licensed opposition etc”.
IF (a big IF) this is all kosher than it’s all very odd.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Jun 23 2023 20:24 utc | 133

About this Prigozin matter, and that someone shot the Wagner barracks etc, better wait till tomorrow. This is just another Ukrainian TG channel blogger fake.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2023 20:25 utc | 134

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 20:01 utc | 127

@125 Surovikin joining “Wagner” was widely reported by Russian media in May 2023, here’s an English-language source

My, you really are a sour stream of bullshit aren’t you?
There must be a NATO operation going down today. All the professional propaganda artists are out in force …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 23 2023 20:26 utc | 135

Ukrops: “Shit, this counteroffensive isn’t working. Maybe we need to rethink this?”
Russian MoD: “Ohs noes! The flow of Nazis into our grinder is slowing down! Quick, someone wake Prigozhin up!”
Prigozhin: “^%#$^#^$&%*^!!!”
Ukrops: “Oh sweet! The Russians are killing each other! Let’s take advantage of that and charge into the kill zone again!”
Russian MoD: “Ah, that’s much better. Grinder operating at capacity once more.”
I thank the NAFOtards for their part in keeping the Russian meat grinders busy.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 20:26 utc | 136

Our failure in the Ukraine proxy war is in large part because we do not know how to fight in a 2022 combined arms conflict ourselves, let alone train others to do it, furthermore we do not understand the impact of force multipliers implemented on a large scale anymore. How could they run a simulation where well placed mines, artillery, and air supremacy on the FEBA do not count as significant force multipliers?
Night vision goggles and better armor count as slight multipliers when the opposing force has similar equipment in lower quantities, especially when they are on the defensive. We can disrupt logistics with long range accurate missiles, but we are not the only ones. We can train trigger pullers to raid HQs and trenches behind enemy lines, but the op4 figure that out fairly quickly and it may be demoralizing, but it is a only counts as small force multiplier unless they can fully coordinate artillery fire and air support (must have at least air parity in area of operation).
The fake war on terror and The Great Game for near east dominance set us back 20 years in equipment, strategy, and tactics. Perhaps this is just a warm up for a war that we plan on fighting in 5 or 10 years from now and we will use data from this war to drive development of a new military.
But for now our most advanced troops and equipment are optimized for attacking goat herders and civilians at night. In the meantime our near peers adversaries improved their weapons, strategy, and tactics and we are reading up on how to defeat them from 20 year old manuals. There are many lessons from Ukraine for Taiwan.

Posted by: ATM | Jun 23 2023 20:28 utc | 137

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 20:23 utc | 145
GOOD! Maybe zog will come to their senses and start negotiating peace!
Stop this slaughter now!

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 20:29 utc | 138

“OTOH Prigozhin has been increasingly vocal (and critical) of SMO operation over the last few months and various souls have said “it’s a useful safety valve, Putin gives him a long lead, he’s a licensed opposition etc”.
IF (a big IF) this is all kosher than it’s all very odd.”
Not if you are effing with the West’s Leaders and getting feedback from communications intercepts.
Look how the Ze Troll Patrol is reacting to this situation.
We will see if this Madman or Maskrivoka.
Thomas

Posted by: Thomas | Jun 23 2023 20:31 utc | 139

Latest from Military Summary:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yAjzPFmEFWQ
Ukrainians now extending full mobilization across Western Ukraine, pulling in the ethnically pure Banderites and true believers; looking to get another 100,000 dead men walking. They are getting close to the bottom of their conscript barrel, having exhausted the ethnic Russian and Hungarian populations.
Ukrainians advanced to Robotyne south of Orikhiv, planning continued offensive this evening. Still attacking across the southern front and bleeding themselves dry. Building upon forces for a new attack on the Vremevka tactical bridgehead.
Russians attacking in the north toward Lyman and Kupyansk, with more crossings of the Oskhol River north of Kupyansk. If they drive west from these bridgeheads they can cut off the Ukrainian forces north of there, between them and the Russian border. Also, there seems to be an offensive getting ready for Kharkov from the north (where all the PMCs are).

Posted by: Roger | Jun 23 2023 20:31 utc | 140

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 20:26 utc | 149
Hilarious, thanks!

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 23 2023 20:32 utc | 141

I’m looking for some Shiba Inu graphics Here. I’m sure some will turn up eventually. Our friend has some rather odd tastes for a NAFO troll.
In the mean time scroll down a little bit to he/his “Collection of Favorites” near the bottom section of this page and you’ll see what I meant about Inkan1969 having odd tastes. Little cartoon girl butts for one. No, I’m not joking. This is the caliber and class of people recruited to shill for NATO at sites like MoA. I’m sure he’s WFH and all, too.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 20:33 utc | 142

In the meantime, MiG31K and Tu95 planes are in the air. Air alert in most of the Ukraine…

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2023 20:34 utc | 143

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 20:33 utc | 155
They’re all homo’s and degenerate. That’s zog in one sentence.
Stop this madness now!

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 20:37 utc | 144

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 20:26 utc | 149
Excellent work sir! A bar tipple of your choice is sorted!

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 20:38 utc | 145

Oh, forgot to say. That Handelsblatt cover sadly appears to be “false, but it illustrates a wider truth”, as Greg Dyke or Piers Morgan would say.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FzRqa1dakAAkQd2.jpg

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Jun 23 2023 20:41 utc | 146

@153
True believers are thought to be the best by the ignorant. True believers best when winng, and the worst when losing. They split and argue over minutia.
@155
Typical reddit resident. Pure simp incel neckbeard midwit npc.
Re: proggy. I gots to laugh! Nato only hpoe is deus ex machina, and trip the light fantastic, triple eights! It seems all their wishes are gonna come true afterall. Husslin is easiest on marks down on their luck. They’ll debate, but what if it is actually true? It prolly isnt, but of it is, too good to pass up. Spin them cards, i know i can pick the ace of spades, after all, i saw rune priggo do it!
Words aint enough for a hussle, it gotta rhyme, its gotta be quick, its gotta have a rube to show how its done.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 20:42 utc | 147

“Sour” is one of those Zelensky trolls. Ignore the bugger!

Posted by: ostro | Jun 23 2023 20:42 utc | 148

Sour | Jun 23 2023 20:35 utc | 157
Our host asks us not to be abusive. Pity.
I think pretty much everything Sour writes is a lie, including “and” and “the”.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Jun 23 2023 20:46 utc | 149

You can find a rather impartial description of the “Prigozhin situation” here “>https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-boss-says-moscows-war-ukraine-based-lies-2023-06-23/

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 20:35 utc | 157
<Beavis and Butthead laughter soundtrack>
He said “impartial” and “Reuters” in the same post…
<Beavis and Butthead laughter soundtrack>
~~~
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 20:33 utc | 155
Man, that’s sick. Thanks for doing the digging. A medicinal/recovery tipple at the bar for you on my tab, if you need one.

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 20:47 utc | 150

The only place ukronazis can cause trouble is on the internet, and even there they are lame.

Posted by: nook | Jun 23 2023 20:47 utc | 151

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 19:33 utc | 100
1 – Let’s talk about lost John kerry’s proof of Russian Buk launch?
2 – Let’s talk about MH17 wreckage showing evidence of gunning (30mm and smaller calibers) compatible with fighter aircraft attack.
3 – How about the plane being shot out of range from any Buk launcher in close vicinity of Sniznhe? Remember BUK range with complete TELAR station and Launchers has range of 35km max – with low likelihood of hit at this max range.
But lone launcher (captured impaired and abandoned from Ukraine army) has some much lower range since IT CANNOT DETECT INCOMING object with its very basic radar.
4 – How could a lone BUK M-1 launcher – without TELAR radar station – hit an object it would be unable to detect?
5 – Most of Bellingcat “open sourced” evidence has been “debunked” to be fake and originating from other periods of time than August 2014 especially when looking at shadows of vids and pix that are way too extended fr a summer months provind they were taken in the spring – if you have time to spare just go yourself have a look at all available so-called evidence from Bellingcrap.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 23 2023 20:48 utc | 152

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 20:45 utc | 163
This isn’t the old soviet union.
How can they terminate the most powerful PMC? It’s all jew news to make you think otherwise. It’s their tricks. chabad tricks for centuries
“God save the queen, c’mon man”

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 20:52 utc | 153

The President of the United States is Joe Biden.
He was elected by a democratic process – by the vote of the public.
He serves the public that elected him.
If he should every waver in acting in the interest of his constituents, I know that the US media – the NY Times, in particular – would quickly point out his transgressions.
That is how democracy works.

Posted by: jared | Jun 23 2023 20:54 utc | 154

Priozhin has gone mad and lost his mind.
This can happen to the ebst ones in time of canage and tension.
I hope he gets some deserved treatment and gets better soon.

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 23 2023 20:54 utc | 155

Checked a few TG channels on the Prigozhin thing, I notice it’s very comic book and too much on social media, doesn’t seem like a sound basis for a coup or even for a warning or desperate outreach to the Russian people.
Real crises in wartime happen out of the public eye, if a coup it’s secret plotting then one fast move. Success or failure hardly ever revealed and most vanish into a history black hole. If it’s playing out in front of your eyes it’s psyops.
My observation is these two dimensional Punch and Judy shows on social media are overly energetic and flippant, too inchoate and spazzy to be real, it’s why even as a little kid I never bought into pro wrestling, saw through the kayfabe even before I learned the word. Recall despite the Prigozhin Bakhmut sideshow, Wagner wasn’t running out of ammo, wasn’t in the shit, in the final push won it handily and quickly.
Maybe that’s the world we live in 2023, maybe it’s a cry for help, if Prigozhin was in the USA in the 1990s he’d go on Oprah in 2023 he’s on his own channel on social media. Maybe coups that were once necessarily silent and behind the scenes now play out noisily on social media and are revealed from the get go for what power plays usually are, stupid, petty, vain and comic book.

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | Jun 23 2023 20:58 utc | 156

The NAFO trolls are bronies?
Kinda what I expected.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 20:58 utc | 157

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 20:47 utc | 165
I had to stop digging and go take a shower after nearly vomiting in my mouth once or twice. Done with that one. Oh, but I’m sure it’s just a coincidence and it was somebody else as there are likely THOUSANDS of “Inkan1969” handles on the Internet! Thousands, I tell you. P.S. he/his has been looking in on MoA since the Billmon days and is likely a contractor for some USG or NATO entity.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 21:00 utc | 158

Another fucking thread derailed by Prigozhin.
Another good reason to shoot the son-of-a-bitch.
I hope the post that said a criminal case has been opened is correct.
I was going to quote Martyanov but someone beat me to it. I’ve asked Andrei to post a link to the article he mentioned so I can quote it here.
Andrei also said in a comment, “Yep, SOB is now in deep shit.” It does appear the anti-terrorist committee has opened a case against him.
So much for those saying “it was all maskirovka” and “Putin authorized it”.
Sometimes things really are exactly as they appear to be.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 23 2023 21:00 utc | 159

It wasn’t even NEW propaganda.
In WW2, they told the kids landing on Normandy that the Germans were nothing but boys and old men, who would flee when they saw the allies landing.
and then again in Market Garden, when they said that Holland was guarded by old men and untrained conscripts.
it is propaganda as old as time to get soldiers to attack heavily fortified positions with the promise that the defenders will surely just runaway and not fight

Posted by: Oldcutlas | Jun 23 2023 21:01 utc | 160

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 19:33 utc | 100
Oh I just forgot topost the DUTCH map ofMH17 debris I kept posted on my VK since 2014!
https://vk.com/photo351393824_457239063?all=1
and
https://vk.com/photo351393824_457239062?all=1
This map shows debris as far as 34 km from Shnizne: debris from a plane flying at 5200 knots cannot go backwards to a place on the ground out of range from an hypothetical BUK-M1 in Shiznhe!
All this BS reminds of the ‘JFK magic bullet’.
(Or was it rather ‘KFC magic horsesh!t’?) …

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 23 2023 21:03 utc | 161

Andrew Celestina | Jun 23 2023 19:30 utc | 96–
If he could, Peter AU1 would loudly applaud your comment. Since he can’t, I most certainly will!!!

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 23 2023 21:04 utc | 162

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 20:58 utc | 172
Yep, Bronies who use a login at Wikipedia to avoid having their IP addresses displayed publicly when making their thousands of edits. Surely this person was recruited to the propaganda field at some “Furry” forum online. P.S. Check out his comment volume on Disqus. He/his is prolific.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 21:04 utc | 163

NAFO concern trolls and their “hobbies”.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 21:07 utc | 164

The commenter Sour may be the same troll as Sourvodka427 infesting a comments forum at RT.com with similar comments about Wagner Group and Evgeny Prigozhin.

Posted by: Refinnejenna | Jun 23 2023 21:07 utc | 165

Yet again the thread has degenerated into a discussion about a media personality whose name’s been mentioned 30 times on just this portion of the thread! Not eve Putin gets that much discussion!!!!
IMO, he’s Russia’s version of Biden–a “celebrity” that gets far more media attention than he deserves and in reality has no real power, just position.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 23 2023 21:09 utc | 166

Yep, everything the NATO folks said would happen was wrong, and didn’t. So far they have a 100% track record in that regard. Same for the mainstream US newsmedia, and everyone in the public (US) intelligentsia, and the entire of the US political class. As has been posted, it is quite likely that at least some of them knew better but played along with the bosses and the herd for career reasons. I am not in a position to say.
But the letter I’m working on to the NYT might say something in that regard. The rich asshole Titanic subtourist submarine that sank–well, WSJ had an article yesterday, one obviously fed to their reporter, about how the US SOSUS system clearly showed an underwater implosion occuring at the site at the time of communications lost with the sub. Umm, nobody in the US newsmedia, nor the US political system (where were the defense experts on the Hill here?), nor any serving or retired USN with any ASW experience (any ASW experience in the last SIXTY YEARS, as that’s how long SOSUS has been around) ever contacted the newsmedia to explain how SOSUS would most certainly have picked up any underwater implosion of a sinking submarine, so somebody just needed to ask the USN for their assistance and maybe get an accurate quick answer. You think that there will be any apologies to the governments of Canada, Great Britain, France, and whoever else sent assistance for the search, for the unwarranted expense to them? Umm, why didn’t any of these countries’ governments navies think of checking on the SOSUS data first?
It all points to a rather systemic system of failure in the West. Failure of institutions, persons, bureaucratic norms, social norms, you name it. Gadzooks.

Posted by: Daniel N. White | Jun 23 2023 21:10 utc | 167

@176 dont forget about the identical plane that vanished a few months before. CNN literally spent weeks covering it, and asking questions like “Could aliens have taken it?”
This was reported on by The Daily Show. CNN was obsessed with the missing plane. Why?
Oh… So we could all know every effort was made to find some debris in the Indian Ocean, and none was ever found… and the identical plane shit down a few months later, cant be the same one. Surely not.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 21:10 utc | 168

So we’ve got a new pet on the forum, I miss good old Zanon, he/she was more fun.
I have nothing to say on the Prigozhin drama, except, it fits like a glove the pattern of Ukrainian disinformation warfare. Wait 24 hours and see if it disappears from the news cycle like a fart in a Newfoundland November gale.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 23 2023 21:14 utc | 169

Lol looks like Prigozhin already backtracked.
What a clown
How they allow him to say stuff when they prosecute much less is beyond me. Most likely him and his crew have some serious dirt on Putin and co.

Posted by: Comandante | Jun 23 2023 21:15 utc | 170

@ Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 20:26 utc | 149
I like ur funny comment.
Yeah, all is possible in love and war. Shame on me if i took the bait… shame on you if Prigozhin does take a fall?
All seems a little too convincing, now even the FSB steps in, so let’s wait and see who gets the last laugh.
Btw, Tass not exactly a NAFO troll source… are they and FSB both in on it too?
https://tass.com/russia/1637425
“Russian security service starts mutiny probe after statements by Prigozhin — committee”

Posted by: Et Tu | Jun 23 2023 21:18 utc | 171

OK, Ukrainians were lied to. No question. But, what happens next? They get mobilized and fight? Again and again? And with less equipment, they’ll get slaughtered faster. Slavyangrad is talking about Russian trenches filling up with “meat” from the enemy from human wave attacks. So a handful surrender while hundreds run to their deaths?

Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 23 2023 21:18 utc | 172

sourvodka:
You mean to say that the Russian armed forced are corrupt, incompetent, and demoralized; Prigozhin snd his troops are in open armed rebellion…and despite all the NATO training and materiel the 404 armed forces still can’t manage a counteroffensive?
Well okay then. 🙂

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 23 2023 21:18 utc | 173

Latest Napolitano…
Ukraine War – Is Moscow Lying? w/Col Doug Macgregor
https://www.youtube.com/@judgingfreedom/streams
Haven’t listened to it yet, but someone at Andrei’s blog commented:
“Near the 2:40 mark, Macgregor said his sources have told him Ukraine casualties’ number 15,000 dead and nearly 15,000 wounded since Kiev began the offensive.”
This indicates to me that the rate of destruction of the Ukrainian army is now much higher than the 15-30,000 per month I estimated during much of the war. I suspect it went up back in the fall when the Ukrainians did their Kherson and Kharkov “offensives” and has remained high due to Bakkmut and now the new “offensive.” I suspect the figure now is closer to 50-60,000 total losses, dead and wounded, per month, and the ratio of Ukrainian to Russian losses is closer to 20-30:1 or even higher.
Which means even if Ukraine has 700,000 troops remaining – which again I highly doubt – the Russians can burn through them in less than 10 months, while taking probably no more casualties than they are currently. Since Russian losses are probably 20,000 dead over the last 18 months (Wagner according to some took 30,000 dead and wounded), and likely 1-3 times that in wounded, taking another 70,000 or so dead and wounded won’t be that big a deal. It would be about ten percent of the Russian forces in theater – and most of the wounded would survive compared to Ukrainian wounded. And I suspect Russian casualties ratio will drop even further once Ukraine’s military collapses, which again will happen long before Russia needs to kill that many Ukrainians.
As I mentioned in the earlier thread, I suspect the Ukrainian army will collapse in effectiveness within 3-6 months, after which the Russians will finish taking Donbasss, Kharkov and Kherson, shorten the line of contact, consolidate their forces and the resulting Russian army will be unstoppable across Ukraine regardless of any weapons systems the West continues to supply to the dysfunctional Ukrainian military. The war will effectively be over by New Year’s Day if not sooner due to government collapse in Ukraine, or decapitation strikes by the Russians of the Ukrainian government, or a coup by disgruntled Ukrainian military elements, any of which is possible.
And I doubt the West can put together any kind of “intervention force” from Poland or elsewhere in that time frame.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 23 2023 21:19 utc | 174

Prigozhin has been doing psyops pretending to be dying and losing since March for the purpose of encouraging the Ukrainians to think they have hope of victory and send all their reserves into the kill zone. This looks like more of the same theater to me.

Posted by: Rhinoskerous | Jun 23 2023 21:22 utc | 175

One of my beliefs is that there is what is true, and then there is what you are better off believing. Rather than continuously paint the Russians as corrupt and incompetent, it would be smarter to treat them as though they are smart, motivated and ready (whether or not it is actually true). It is far better to be pleasantly surprised.

Posted by: ian | Jun 23 2023 21:23 utc | 176

I’m seeing unconfirmed rumours that Prigozhin has signed up for the next British TV series of “I’m A Celebrity, Get Me Out Of Here”…

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 21:23 utc | 177

BTW, what w this new Sour glowie/troll, and is he answering to his own posts?? Just ignore him

Posted by: Et Tu | Jun 23 2023 21:23 utc | 178

“But when one uses wrong estimates for the fighting powers of each side as input of a simulation the output will always be garbage.”
I work in simulation, engagement level simulations, not so much the mission and campaign level sims. Same thing though. There’s a saying in M&S: “all models are wrong, some models are useful.”

Posted by: BB | Jun 23 2023 21:25 utc | 179

Et Tu @186
Are the State Department, CIA, FBI, New York Langley Times, and Reuters in on it when the US does a psyop?
I’ve never met “The Chef”, so I’m just speculating. As you say, we’ll see.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 21:25 utc | 180

And if the day can’t get any stranger:
https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en/status/1672280637095419904
What the heck?

Posted by: Tim2 | Jun 23 2023 21:28 utc | 181

You can find a rather impartial description of the “Prigozhin situation” here https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/russian-mercenary-boss-says-moscows-war-ukraine-based-lies-2023-06-23/
Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 20:35 utc | 157

He said “impartial” and “Reuters” in the same post…

~~~
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 20:33 utc | 155
Man, that’s sick. Thanks for doing the digging. A medicinal/recovery tipple at the bar for you on my tab, if you need one.
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 20:47 utc | 165
New levels of cope by the beleaguered barflies. Let’s walk through the story, shall we?
“Russia accused mercenary chief Yevgeny Prigozhin of calling for an armed mutiny on Friday after he alleged, without providing evidence, that the military leadership had killed 2,000 of his fighters and vowed to stop what he called its “evil”.”
Did Prigozhin say the military leadership had killed 2,000 of his men?
“RAs a long-running standoff between him and the Defence Ministry appeared to come to a head, the ministry issued a statement, saying Prigozhin’s accusations were “not true and are an informational provocation.””
Did the MoD say his statements were “not true and are an informational provocation”?
“Prigozhin said his actions did not amount to a military coup. But Russia’s FSB security service opened a criminal case against him for calling for an armed mutiny, the TASS news agency said on Friday, citing the National Anti-terrorism Committee.”
Did Tass say that? Was Tass correct that FSB opened a criminal case against Prigozhin?
“The Kremlin said President Vladimir Putin had been informed and that “necessary measures are being taken”.”
Has it been stated that Putin was informed?
“Prigozhin, whose frequent tirades on social media belie his limited role in the war as head of the Wagner private militia, has for months been openly accusing Defence Minister Sergei Shoigu and Russia’s top general, Valery Gerasimov, of rank incompetence and of denying his forces ammunition and support.”
Is that a fair summary of what Prigozhin has been saying?
“But earlier on Friday, he had appeared to cross a new line in his increasingly vitriolic feud with the Defence Ministry, saying that the Kremlin’s rationale for invading Ukraine was based on lies concocted by the army’s top brass.”
That’s what he said, wasn’t it?
“The minister of defence has ordered 2,000 bodies that are being stored to be hidden so as not to show the losses.”
“Those who destroyed our lads, who destroyed the lives of many tens of thousands of Russian soldiers, will be punished. I ask that no one offer resistance …
“There are 25,000 of us and we are going to figure out why chaos is happening in the country.”
Are those quotes accurate?
If you think there is anything that is false in the Reuters story, feel free to point it out. But I’m pretty sure you’re not going to be able to come up with a single falsehood, since it simply repeats what the various Russians involved are saying.
Here’s an exercise for those overdosing on copium. Pretend this was happening on the Ukrainian side. Pretend this was Budanov talking about Zaluzhnyi, for example. How would you react then?
This exercise may help you think more clearly about what is happening.

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 21:31 utc | 182

@Commandante “Lol looks like Prigozhin already backtracked.”
Not that difficult to understand – just psyops.

Posted by: ian | Jun 23 2023 21:31 utc | 183

ЦОС ФСБ: вся информация в соцсетях от имени Пригожина о якобы нанесенных Минобороны РФ ударах по тыловым частям ЧВК “Вагнер” не соответствует действительности.
FSB Central Control Center: all the information in social networks on behalf of Prigozhin about the alleged strikes by the Russian Defense Ministry on the rear units of the Wagner PMC is not true.
Заявления и действия Пригожина фактически являются призывами к началу вооруженного гражданского конфликта на территории РФ (с) ЦОС ФСБ
Prigozhin’s statements and actions are calls for the beginning of an armed civil conflict on the territory of the Russian Federation (с) the FSB Central Control Center
Призываем бойцов ЧВК “Вагнер” не выполнять преступные приказы Пригожина и принять меры к его задержанию (с) ЦОС ФСБ
We call on the fighters of the Wagner PMCs not to carry out Prigozhin’s criminal orders and take measures to detain him (с) the FSB Central Control Center
CC

Posted by: repost | Jun 23 2023 21:32 utc | 184

Posted by: Tim2 | Jun 23 2023 21:28 utc | 196
Ridiculous. I like how they edited the video so that it’s never zoomed in on his face in the right hand side of the dual frame.
And the source? https://twitter.com/Gerashchenko_en
Show us in writing on the Kremlin’s website where this alleged conflicting information can be found or stop Ukrotrolling.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 21:33 utc | 185

ESCALATION OF THE RUSSO/UKRAINIAN WAR
In May the Russians took all of Bakhmut.
Now in June the Russians have taken out a significant chunk of the June 4th Ukrainian offensive. With the recent pause of that offensive, it could be said that the Russians have neutralized that offensive. The death of a significant number of NATO trained military personnel and destruction of equipment is undermining the combat capability of the Ukrainian army. It looks like most of the June 2023 Ukrainian offensive will be either destroyed or neutralized in June 2023.
Now the Russians are starting to advance along the zero line where the AFU has been weakened.
Overall the Russian, achievements over the last couple of months have been significant.
Meanwhile, Ukraine has announced a general mobilization for all men 18-65. This call to arms of all men 18 to 65 is evidence of desperate tactics. If this war continues, such will be a death warrant for most that are forced into the AFU.
Not too many months past, the West was debating sending Western tanks to Ukraine. For sure the Western tanks were part of the recent June 4th, Ukrainian offense. These tanks did not fare too well without proper Ukrainian air defenses.
Like the Marianna Turkey shoot for the USA forces in June 1944 for Japanese aircraft, the Ukrainian tanks and other ground vehicles became the Ukrainian Turkey shoot for the Russians in June 2023. The recent Ukrainian offensive helped the Russians to further improve their air defenses.
Now the escalation is going towards F-16 and longer range missiles for Ukraine. This is yet again another major escalation in the war.
Recently, two icons of the US Senate, announced that they would consider any radiological release in Ukraine would be met with deadly force from the West. This announcement did not mention any investigative time to determine who caused the release.
So the West, including Ukraine, could cause a radiological release. Then, without any investigation, the Russians will immediately be blamed. At this point the West could possibly release very destructive weapons upon the Russians. Well, at least the stage is being prepped for this scenario.
At this point the Russians could possibly release very destructive weapons upon the USA and its NATO allies.
In summary we are looking at the recent escalation as follows:
May 2023: the fall of Bakhmut
June 2023: the neutralization of the “great” Ukrainian offensive
July 2023: Western introduction of F-16s and long range missiles for Ukraine
The escalation is now in exponential phase. There has been a pause in the recent Ukrainian offensive. Yet, there has been no pause in the escalation.
Where does it end? On one side we have the proud and perverted Western crazies running the show thinking their world hegemony will last forever. On the other hand, we have a determined and hardened Russian Federation that has been consistently and constantly lied to by the West over the past decades.
The current escalation will eventually end. How do you think it will end?

Posted by: young | Jun 23 2023 21:35 utc | 186

Gerashchenko is a liar and a scumbag. He took the lead in blaming Donetsk separatists for the shootdown of MH-17, has openly praised Nazis, and celebrated the murder of the mayor of Kreminna by Nazi forces.
Nothing he says can be believed and anything he says or tweets deserves the utmost scrutiny.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 21:38 utc | 187

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 20:01 utc | 127
a paywalled link where your claim doesn’t appear in the teaser paragraph. (Not that the economist is reliable for anything but British propaganda) No search turns up any evidence of your claim either of Surovkin getting fired or joining Wagner.
You’re going to have to do better. And you should be less obvious in your psyop work than to link to a Ukrainian site offering surrender to Russian soldiers.

Posted by: Lex | Jun 23 2023 21:38 utc | 188

Thanks b; you are in the top 10 reporters now and everyone wants to read your reports. I think the bar flies sometimes forget how much time b is putting in on this site. I know I do.
so let us raise a glass, but also open the wallet and keep b on full time. Hear hear to the Moon of A.

Posted by: Tard | Jun 23 2023 21:40 utc | 189

From the Economist article linked by the new resident concern troll, re: Surovikin “joining” Wagner.
Meanwhile, Re:Russia, another think-tank, notes that, according to Mr Prigozhin, General Surovikin has begun to represent Wagner’s interests among Russia’s senior commanders.
Nice try. Widely reported by Russian media, LMAO. OK. https://yandex.com/search/?text=surovikin+wagner&lr=103540&search_source=yacom_desktop_common
If you say so.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 21:41 utc | 190

@Orgel| 25
There is nothing Russia can do to prevent NATO from entering this war. They will do so, if they decide to. Reality simply doesnt play any role any more.
Perhaps Russian thinking has been evolving over the last 18 months from “Lets Hope Nato stays out” to “We think we can beat Nato” to “We have a narrowing window over the next 5 years to beat Nato and reset the European order”
I still think the whole purpose of Wagner and Mr. P is to put pressure on the Russian MOD to reform and perform. That seems to be working. Lets always remember Wagner soldiers are paid to fight. Where does the money to make their paychecks good come from ? Mr P or whomever runs things can do nothing without money to pay the troops and buy supplies and gasoline and transport.
War is changing. War of mass and movement is much more difficult. Russia seems to be learning lessons fast.

Posted by: danf51 | Jun 23 2023 21:43 utc | 191

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 21:31 utc | 197
Er… yeah.. er… OK.. er… actual er… links to the.. er… actual er… TASS reports? Or.. er… something.. er… substantive.. or something?
Something like this perhaps: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OvMZT2zfy0

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 21:43 utc | 192

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 21:33 utc | 200
Pretty amazing coordination by some on today’s craziness.
Some of the stuff Prigozhin is claimed to have said is way out there. Almost like he was working for Ukraine. Are we sure it was really him?
Presidential caterer launches coup?
Shoigu finally gives ammo to Wagner? Except….
I guess it will take a day or two to shake this all out and we find out it was all smoke and mirrors. [And the world is still here!]

Posted by: Tim2 | Jun 23 2023 21:51 utc | 193

pyrrhus @ 105
Lindsay Graham, with his neocon allies, is now pushing a Senate resolution that if any radiation leads from the Zaporozhye Nuclear facility, that would justify the US nuking Russia…As if that wouldn’t result in the total destruction of the US and Europe….
RESPONSE: Lindsay Graham is acting in coordination with what the neocons are telling him to say. His words are a message not only to Russia, but to any discerning person to where the current Russo/Ukrainian conflict is heading.
His words are telling the Russians that the West is planning a false flag to blame the Russians for a radiological release in Ukraine. His words are telling the Russians that soon after this false flag event, the West will launch against Russia military targets.
Whenever, this false flag event occurs, it will be best to make your final preps.

Posted by: young | Jun 23 2023 21:52 utc | 194

Posted by: Greg Galloway | Jun 23 2023 20:54 utc | 170
Priozhin has gone mad and lost his mind.
This can happen to the ebst ones in time of canage and tension.
I hope he gets some deserved treatment and gets better soon.

Given the intense battle he’s been in, it’s entirely possible he can’t find his bearings and has lost a few marbles.

Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 23 2023 21:53 utc | 195

Prigozhin has invited everyone to enjoy a buffet of propaganda, but the menu was created by his Internet Research Agency.
The beeb offers this explanation for Prigozhin turning whistleblower, “Is the tough-talking angry Prigozhin we see and hear on Telegram a fully-fledged Kremlin project? If so, his blame the war on Shoigu and oligarchs rant could be designed to shield Putin from public criticism, while offering the Kremlin a possible way out of a conflict that hasn’t gone to plan, without damaging the president or the political system.”
I don’t agree with the beeb’s take on things, but agree Mr P’s rants are not what they seem to be. A couple of days ago he was trolling Malyar when he said the Ukrainians were near Molochnyi Lyman, but that didn’t stop many commenters believing it true.

Posted by: boon | Jun 23 2023 21:54 utc | 196

Well, Surovikin has appealed to Wagner fighters not to shoot their Russian comrades.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672356994810822659?cxt=HHwWhoC21fD0s7UuAAAA
Vladimir Alekseyev with same message.
https://twitter.com/NOELreports/status/1672356994810822659?cxt=HHwWhoC21fD0s7UuAAAA
Moscow and Rostov allegedly locking down.
Best psyop ever!
Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 21:43 utc | 207
You’re filibustering. Tell me what is false in the Reuters story.

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 21:54 utc | 197

Well, what did the ISW ‘experts’ expect? That the Russians would use their manuals as toilet paper and run away when the turkey shooting begins?
In their utter stupidity the neoconservatives probably really believed that.
..
The politics of this war demanded that the ‘western’ side wins. NATO military was biased towards that. Instead of telling the politicians what a realistic outcome would be it delivered hopeful assessments that defied reality.

The question of what the neocons really believe is an interesting one. Realist theorize that states should do everything that they reasonably can do to maximize their own advantages. Neocons are realist that don’t accept that constraint, ie unrealists.
And they certainly appear to believe their own propaganda. Eventhough they should know better. The ISW is a good example. Go to any of their posts and scroll down to the links at the bottom. The friendly links will be functional and formatted properly, but the links to Russian or pro-Russian sites will be broken. Like this:
http://www.teamusa.com
http://www.teamrussia (dot) com
The only reason that I can think to do this is to prevent ISW posts from being censored (down ranked, shaddow banned, etc.) by search engines and social media. ISW clearly knows this or they wouldn’t be doing it.
Further, I have followed the links on a few outrageous claims to the Russian sources, hunted down the actual event and found transcripts in Russian and machine translated them to English. In all cases the ISW claim is a 180 misrepresentation of the original source.
Now Kimberly Kagan (founder ISW) is Victoria Nuland’s (Maidan coup) sister-in-law through her husband Robert Kagan (founder Project for the New American Century). So they all know what the agenda is and what the propaganda is, but the collective result is failure due to unrealistic expectations. I think that they are living in an echo chamber and they have jedi mind tricked themselves into believing their own lies.
Orwell was ahead of the curve. But unlike 1984, they are fighting a real enemy and losing. None of the neocon failures in the last 20 years have snapped them out of their delusions. I think that their next move is to double down, a false flag to bring in NATO. I’m calling it the Nuland Surprise.

Posted by: team10tim | Jun 23 2023 21:55 utc | 198

Posted by: zinjanthropus | Jun 23 2023 21:54 utc | 213
Fillibustering? Huh? Do you know the meaning of that word?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 23 2023 21:58 utc | 199

Exile | Jun 23 2023 19:03 utc | 65

…what are you going to recommend to the higher ups ? What is NATO going to do come Spring 2025

Probably what von Runstedt is supposed to have replied to a similar question/situation in 1945; “End the war, you idiots!”

Posted by: robjira | Jun 23 2023 21:58 utc | 200