Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 23, 2023

The Ukrainian Counter-Offensive Had No Chance. NATO Failed To Explain That.

The 'west' pushed Ukraine into a hopeless counter-offensive based on false assessments and wild expectations.

Russian troops were claimed to be weak, untrained and unprepared for an Ukrainian attack. On the other side it was claimed that the freshly mobilized Ukrainian men which received 'western' weapons and training would have the necessary quantity and quality to overcome Russian defenses.

Ukrainian troops, as well as the public, were told to believe that bullshit.

Lord Bebo @MyLordBebo - 0:55 UTC · Jun 23, 2023

NATO training explained by an Ukrainian POW
-> Psychologists trained them to not be afraid and that Russia is exhausted and weak ...
Embedded video From Maimunka News


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Any rational and neutral military assessment showed a far more realistic picture. One in which Russia would always defeat the planned counter-offensive.

At the end of 2022 the Ukrainian army had been exhausted and had been already been destroyed twice. The Russians had first destroyed large parts of the original equipment of the Ukrainian army and then the Soviet era equipment that was brought to Ukraine from former Warsaw Pact nations.

More importantly they had killed or wounded many of the experienced non-commissioned staff (Sergeants etc) and lower rank officers of the Ukrainian military that command and are the core of each company. The newly mobilized Ukrainian forces did not have the knowledge or training necessary to replace them.

'Western' equipment is more complex than Soviet era stuff.  It also requires more specialized maintenance. The Ukraine received a zoo. The many types of equipment and the many incompatible kinds of ammunition they use are a logistic nightmare.

'Western' training for the mobilized Ukrainian forces did not bring up more capable soldiers than Soviet training would have done. Those who watched NATO stumble in Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya should have recognized that.

Russian on the other side mobilized 300,000 soldiers who mostly had been contract soldiers before they had returned to private life. They received extensive refresher training. They now mostly get paid more than in their civilian life which certainly helped to increase their motivation.

Russia also changed the structure of its military. The main Russian fighting force in 2022 was made up of Brigade Tactical Groups (BIG). Each of them was part of a garrison brigade which next to the one contract soldier BTG had additional battalions that were mostly training conscripts. Under Russian laws the conscript battalions could not be used on foreign ground.

The fighting BTG's had few real infantry soldiers. Next to their 9 infantry platoons they had 8 artillery and 5 auxiliary platoons. Of a total of some 800 plus soldiers in a BTG only 200 were actually infantry that could man the trenches. The whole structure was too big and too difficult to command.

After the mobilization had brought up enough men the Russian military changed from BTGs to a mobile brigade structure. Under a higher commander the brigade holds two or three battalions that each consist of three or four companies of mobile infantry or tanks. Most of the artillery and auxiliary troops of the former BTGs are now concentrated under the brigade structure and can be used more flexible wherever they are needed. The tooth to tail ratio in the frontline battalions is now much higher than in a BTG and the whole structure is easier to command.

Above the newly structured brigades are now division commands which have additional assets like air defenses, attack helicopters and electronic warfare units. They direct the brigades within a wider front and with a bigger picture in mind.

While a lack of contract infantry necessitated the BTG structure of 2022 the additionally mobilized forces allowed in 2023 to return to the more efficient classic structures of battalions under brigades under divisions. All this was visible through the reports from the Russian military which had stopped to mention BTGs and changed to brigade numbers. For an unbiased military mind it was easy to see that this new Russian force would be a more balanced and better one.

Satellite pictures had shown for months that the Russian troops were building extensive defense structures like trench lines and anti-tank barriers. They are by the way still adding to them.

In the spring of 2023 the Ukrainian army was much weaker than when the war started. The Russian military had grown and was stronger. It also had well prepared positions. 'Western' politicians, the propagandized public and military commands failed to recognize those facts.

NATO had simulated the Ukrainian counter-offensive:

Logic dictates that any responsible use of the KORA simulation system would have predicted the failure of the 47th Brigade’s attack. According to The Washington Post, the officers of the 47th Brigade “planned their assaults and then let the [KORA] program show them the results – how their Russian enemies might respond, where they could make a breakthrough and where they would suffer losses.” The KORA simulation allowed the Ukrainian officers to coordinate their actions “to test how they’d work together on the battlefield.”
Given that the Ukrainian force structure was insufficient to accomplish the mission-critical task of suppression, there was no chance for the Ukrainian forces to accomplish the actual assault requirements of a breaching operation – the destruction of enemy forces on the opposite side of the obstacle barrier being breached. The Ukrainians, however, came away from their KORA experience confident that they had crafted a winning plan capable of overcoming the Russian defenses in and around Orekhov.

When one examines the structure of a KORA-based simulation, it becomes clear that the system is completely dependent upon the various inputs which define the simulation as a whole.

They probably thought the Ukrainians could actually win. But when one uses wrong estimates for the fighting powers of each side as input of a simulation the output will always be garbage.

The real world results are now in. The Ukrainian counter-offensive has failed.


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The weekend edition of the German business daily headlines: "This isn't a counter-offensive. It is a bloody crash test."

It is now time to acknowledge that the 'western' military assessments and its expectations were completely wrong:

In its early phases, Ukraine’s counteroffensive is having less success and Russian forces are showing more competence than western assessments expected, two western officials and a senior US military official tell CNN.

The counteroffensive is “not meeting expectations on any front,” one of the officials said.

According to the Western assessments, Russian lines of defense have been proving well-fortified, making it difficult for Ukrainian forces to breach them. In addition, Russian forces have had success bogging down Ukrainian armor with missile attacks and mines and have been deploying air power more effectively.

Ukrainian forces are proving “vulnerable” to minefields and Russian forces “competent” in their defense, one of the Western officials said.

Even the neoconservative Institute for the Study of War was forced to eat some tiny bits of craw and to acknowledge the competence of the Russian forces:

The Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD) responded to the Ukrainian attack with an uncharacteristic degree of coherency and praised Southern Military District elements for repelling the attack and regaining lost positions.

Anyone who thinks that coherency is uncharacteristic for the Russians should go back and read up on Operation Bagration which showed what a well prepared Russian military can actually do.

ISW also writes:

Russian forces appear to have executed their formal tactical defensive doctrine in response to the Ukrainian attacks ...

Well, what did the ISW 'experts' expect? That the Russians would use their manuals as toilet paper and run away when the turkey shooting begins?

In their utter stupidity the neoconservatives probably really believed that.

The assessments made did not acknowledge the dubious quality of freshly stood up Ukrainian forces. They did not acknowledge the changes and growth in the military structures on the Russian side. They failed to recognize the quality of the Russian fortifications and military capabilities and the deep roots of their doctrine.

The results are the consequence of ignoring reality, of seeing what one wants to see.

The politics of this war demanded that the 'western' side wins. NATO military was biased towards that. Instead of telling the politicians what a realistic outcome would be it delivered hopeful assessments that defied reality.

In consequence the Ukrainian military suffered many unnecessary casualties and lost the initiative.

Let's hope that at least some folks will learn from this.

Posted by b on June 23, 2023 at 17:16 UTC | Permalink

Comments
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At this point in time.
It must be the drug's that the Ukrainians are given that's keeping the carnage going.
It not rational assessment of their ability or chance of victory on battlefield.

Posted by: jpc | Jun 23 2023 17:20 utc | 1

"learn" b.....look over history, humans ignore at their own peril.

Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jun 23 2023 17:22 utc | 2

That Handelsblatt cover might be a fake. Haven't found it anywhere from an official source. Somebody already did something similar with the Titanic Magazin. The faked covers are very poignant, but I'm afraid the German press is still overwhelmingly stuck in propaganda.

Otherwise, d'accord.

Posted by: Roland | Jun 23 2023 17:26 utc | 3

UKr can not Fail. It can only be failed...I think that is the setup coming. Those sorry US vassal states did not do enough, thus Ukr was failed.

Posted by: horatio | Jun 23 2023 17:28 utc | 4

A lot more pertinent observation.
When this carnage ends and the realisations that western European countries are responsible for continuing their destruction beyond any hope of victory.
Hundreds thousands killed maimed for hubris and toadying up to musical.
The USA is a bit too far away to hit.
Millions of angry Ukrainians throughout Europe.
Lot's of manpads etc are available.
What happens then?
Extortion and blowback through European countries of epic proportions.
Bet those scenarios weren't "gamed" by the planners.
The genie is well and truly out.

Posted by: jpc | Jun 23 2023 17:31 utc | 5

I do think the disappearance of Sic Semper Tyrannis / the whistleblower Pat Lang represents a significant failure of life.

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Jun 23 2023 17:31 utc | 6

Hundreds thousands killed maimed for hubris and toadying up to murica!

Posted by: jpc | Jun 23 2023 17:33 utc | 7

The arrogance and ignorance of the Neocons is so great that they still only believe only what they want to believe. Their lackey's who know better are so scared and morally bankrupt that they no longer dare to even mention the truth, culminating in a self created doom loop. Reality will not stop them or their psychotic agenda. Russia needs to realize this. They claim that they do, but their behavior suggests they still don't, not down deep.

Russia needs to take the gloves off and finish this or I fear they will regret not doing so. A nuclear false flag is a matter of when not if. When it does happen public opinion will be irrelevant because by the time the masses see through the propaganda it will be too late and WW3 will have already begun. If you think that Washington is just going to surrender their place of power quietly you are very much mistaken. They are insane and are just waiting for a reason to escalate.

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 23 2023 17:38 utc | 8

doctrine…..

the pentagon dogma claims doctrine, but it is constrained by the military industry complex demands from the shareholders.

ukraine legacy Soviet doctrine, atrophy by decades of neglect, and no maintenance deferred to usa doctrine applied in vietnam iraq and Afghanistan, i.e send the wunderwaffen and generate profit

who would fight a first world military with doctrine that lost to goatherders!

and a comedian field marshal ordering up the wunderwaffen


Posted by: paddy | Jun 23 2023 17:39 utc | 9

Indeed. But one is reminded that, even if the Ukrainians were to "win," they would lose. They would inherit a devastated country, crushed by a debt that would necessitate selling all resources to foreign investors, they would never recover. And all to achieve what they could have had for free just for telling Putin "OK sure we'll be neutral and not join NATO now go away." And, as pointed out here, the Ukrainians will likely not even "win."

But the western elites don't care. Ukraine is a launching pad for attacks to bleed Russia, and it's not over yet. Expect more attacks on Russia proper from Ukraine - and Russia can't really retaliate, because nobody in charge of Ukraine gives a damn about the country and all their weapons come from abroad. Ukraine can keep bleeding and tormenting Russia indefinitely.... Sure western populations may be impoverished by all the money thrown at Ukraine, but so what? The western elites are not going to be impoverished, indeed they are going to make lots of money from all that lovely cost-plus defense spending, and in any event nothing boosts corporate profits as much as a shortage of supply... Popular revolts? Not hardly. In the UK they are outlawing strikes, and protests, and free speech - all in the name of Democracy, of course.

This could go on for a long time. And what if the Ukrainians start using nerve gas? Or something else nasty - the Western elites are amoral and vicious and have no consideration for collateral damage in their pursuit of ultimately breaking up and looting Russia.

Posted by: TG | Jun 23 2023 17:43 utc | 10

NATO advisors deliberately deceived Ukrainian soldiers, to the point of essentially hacking that KORA simulator (with maliciously skewed inputs), making it seem like AI endorses the suicidal missions they cooked up.

Scott Ritter says it over and over: NATO flat-out tricked Ukrainians into this latest mass-suicide. Details of bogus simulator runs close the case. Russia's line of defense of the Donbass is the most formidable in the history of warfare. The only scenario in which AFU have a hope is the Monty Python (Holy Grail) scenario, Ritter tells us, in which the Russians all thrown down their weapons and shout "Run Away!"

Es ist ein blutiger crashtest, with bloody Ukranian dummies at the wheel.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 23 2023 17:44 utc | 11

BTG - It's Battalion Tactical Group (not Brigade).

Posted by: Susan Welsh | Jun 23 2023 17:45 utc | 12

This website and others spent a whole year insisting that it was not a bad sign for Russia to take all that time to move into central Bakhmut. Declarations that the counter-offensive has failed ring hollow in the wake of that year, no matter how much Tokyo Rose websites insist on being "neutral". If Ukraine is hitting a wall, it can spend time figuring out what would work best as a battering ram.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jun 23 2023 17:46 utc | 13

We in the us have been ruled by delusional, incompetent idiots for a long time. The entire Washington bubble has enjoyed privelege and exes both domestically and internationally that they think that this is reality and their due as the indespensable elite. None of these so called neoconservatives have ever had to face or experience real danger, yet they think they can know strategy from an abstract point of view. These people are not just delusional, they are also chicken shits!

Posted by: a machinist | Jun 23 2023 17:51 utc | 14

thanks b...

the west never acknowledges how they got things wrong.. in fact, the whole media and pundit apparatus are generally immune to examining how they got things wrong... this is a built in feature of the west at this point in time.. no reflection, no examination of the past, no real insight or lessons to be learned from the past.. this is the western way at the present time... failure is the obvious outcome... and that doesn't even address the intentions here which were and continue to be ALL WRONG...

Posted by: james | Jun 23 2023 17:51 utc | 15

Well at the same time, Prigozhin is claiming that Russian military chiefs are lying to Putin about the scale of Russian losses. That the situation is not as rosy as the scenario pushed by "neutral" sources.

“Total trash is being put on the president’s desk. Shoigu and Gerasimov have a simple approach: The lie must be monstrous for people to believe it. That is what they are doing,” Prigozhin said in one message.

“It’s all being hidden from everyone. Russia will wake up one day and learn that [Russian-annexed] Crimea has been handed over to the Ukrainians.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jun 23 2023 17:54 utc | 16

My darkest thought on this is NATO is trying to kill as many Ukrainians as possible, starting with Eastern Ukrainians.

But not because of Khazarian population replacement or anti-Slav racism or glee of a brother war or so Blackrock can come in and buy all the emptied land for pennies on the dollar.

They want to kill as many Ukrainians as possible because they know, and have known Russia will win. Therefore, they want what Russia takes to be completely empty of any possible new soldiers for the Russian army.

This theory has some holes, but those holes could also be considered buffering from a different point of view. For example, if they wanted as many dead Ukrainians as possible, why give them advanced weaponry? Well, they do, but it always comes in disparate trickles. Perhaps they are only there to keep the morale high enough to keep fighting and dying.

This thought is dark because ot is a very real possibility, far more plausible than Jewish replacement or white extinction or Blackrock greed... ..and if true,Putin is playing into their hands with the way he is executing the SMO.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 17:55 utc | 17

When one examines the structure of a KORA-based simulation, it becomes clear that the system is completely dependent upon the various inputs which define the simulation as a whole.

Exactly right. Now apply the same logic to the Imperial College simulation that predicted mass deaths from the 'Fauci Flu' virus (the computer model that had been consistently wrong in prior instances), & the various computer models that predict catastrophic 'climate change' (for example, the ones that can't correctly model the formation of clouds & their reflective effects).

Posted by: Ffrank | Jun 23 2023 17:57 utc | 18

Posted by: TG | Jun 23 2023 17:43 utc | 10

Indeed. But one is reminded that, even if the Ukrainians were to "win," they would lose. They would inherit a devastated country, crushed by a debt that would necessitate selling all resources to foreign investors, they would never recover.

Well, World War II left Germany and Japan comparably devastated, if not more. But they recovered. Even the Soviet Union recovered after sustaining 27 Million deaths.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jun 23 2023 17:57 utc | 19

Someone posted this yesterday. It's long, but remarkably informative and compassionate. Richard Medhurst's interview of Scott Ritter, from yesterday:

https://richardmedhurst.substack.com/p/scott-ritter-interview-ukraine-counteroffensive

Speaking of Bakhmut, at one point Medhurst asks Ritter about the significance of Bakhmut. I'm paraphrasing -- words to the effect:

We estimate some 60 thousand Ukranian soldiers committed to the current counteroffensive. In Bakhmut, 75 thousand were killed. It tore out the heart of the Ukranian military.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 23 2023 17:58 utc | 20

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jun 23 2023 17:46 utc | 13

So!
You think that battering ram strategy is a winning one?
Don't known what organisation you troll for.
But it's disregard for human life is impressive.

Posted by: jpc | Jun 23 2023 17:58 utc | 21

I hope they don't learn anything from it. The defeat of the West is a necessary condition for a better world.

Posted by: John W. | Jun 23 2023 17:59 utc | 22

Typo: BIG was BTG (as subsequently used) which was BATTALION tactical group, not BRIGADE, as it is actually clear from the explanation that follows.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 23 2023 18:02 utc | 23

Nice discussion on SMO in global context with Brian B, Angelo Giuliano and Carl Zha:

https://odysee.com/@LandDestroyer:8/new-atlas-live-carl-zha-on-russian:0

Posted by: the pessimist | Jun 23 2023 18:02 utc | 24

@maverick

Do you really think it matters what Russia does?

At this point I dont think that there is any need for a real false flag any more. They can simply proclaim an incidident and declare the necessity of joining ukraine in this war. Nothing real needs to happen.

Whenever I talk to people outside of our very nice bubble I am baffled by the effects of the propaganda.

There is nothing Russia can do to prevent NATO from entering this war. They will do so, if they decide to. Reality simply doesnt play any role any more.

Posted by: Orgel | Jun 23 2023 18:02 utc | 25

Thanks b

One point. Ukraine never even made it to the first line of Russian fortifications to even test them. Stopped in the FEBA.

Posted by: CaptainCraig | Jun 23 2023 18:06 utc | 26

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 23 2023 17:38 utc | 8

The arrogance and ignorance of the Neocons is so great that they still only believe only what they want to believe.

I'm not impressed with outcries about Neocon arrogance and ignorance when I see Donald Trump as the alternative being offered.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 17:55 utc | 17

My darkest thought on this is NATO is trying to kill as many Ukrainians as possible, starting with Eastern Ukrainians...They want to kill as many Ukrainians as possible because they know, and have known Russia will win. Therefore, they want what Russia takes to be completely empty of any possible new soldiers for the Russian army.

This false concern for Ukrainian lives I've seen frequently in Pro-Putin comments makes me imagine Germans and their supporters during both wars "lamenting" that the Allies are trying to get as many Belgians killed as possible, because they "know" first the Second Reich, and then the Third Reich will inevitably win.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jun 23 2023 18:08 utc | 27

What the heck is going on with Prigozhin? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jun/23/wagner-chief-accuses-moscow-of-lying-to-public-about-ukraine-yevgeny-prigozhin

Posted by: Ludovic | Jun 23 2023 18:10 utc | 28

Posted by: Ludovic | Jun 23 2023 18:10 utc | 28

Well, this is a thread to cry out against military officials telling people to believe bullshit, just like Prigozhin is doing.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jun 23 2023 18:12 utc | 29

A comment: "0th defensive line" was the main obstacle for the offensive, and since it consisted mostly of mine fields, it was invisible in aerial and satellite pictures. Ukraine planned to attack through weakest defenses, which is a GOOD idea, but with invisible mine fields, spotting weak defenses is hard. Minefields force deviations from military doctrine, like how large an attacking force should be at a single location at a single time.

Apparently, remote mining is much less effective that prepared minefields, so repeated attacks did push Ukrainian forces forward, but after a week of that, it emerged that the benefits of armor over purely infantry attack are much smaller than planned. Perhaps RF did not have enough heavy machine guns in place... here I must admit that I do not know the best anti-infantry tactics in that environment.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 23 2023 18:12 utc | 30

Thanks for the perspective b.

I have to think however, those in the upper echelons of government and the military knew perfectly well what would happen and decided that the political investment was too great to back off. The lives of normal people let alone Ukrainian canon fodder are of zero consequence to them.

Moreover they believe that they can spin any outcome to their benefit regardless how bad it is , if only by making bad news simply disappear. The narrative control in the west is very very powerful so you can see why they would think this.

I pray they will be held accountable....

Posted by: Judge Barbier | Jun 23 2023 18:12 utc | 31

which will fail first, the $ or Europe?

Posted by: AI | Jun 23 2023 18:13 utc | 32

TG #10

Agreed.
The war in Ukraine is likely to evolve into a long phase of Hit & Run guerilla warfare in and outside of Ukraine...small precision terror attacks from inside Russian territories (in the Donbass and in Russia) as well as in the fast expanding BRICS+ countries and along the BRI and New Development Bank routes of infrastructure projects. All about disruption & destabilisation - of straining/undermining new national relationships that are developing amongst the BRICS+ countries, and of attacks on development projects themselves - bridges, pipelines, dams, power plants, railways,dockyards, etc - nothing is off limits after Nordstream and Kakhovka. Likely a chain of coup attempts (no need for them to succeed), urban bombings to bring systems to a halt, small cells of disruption everywhere. And maybe from both sides...like all the warehouse fires and derailments and tanker explosions that have been happening in the US all year.

Posted by: Irish | Jun 23 2023 18:16 utc | 33

Posted by: CaptainCraig | Jun 23 2023 18:06 utc | 26

One point. Ukraine never even made it to the first line of Russian fortifications to even test them. Stopped in the FEBA.

Mikael Valtersson said in this tweet that "In Robotino Russian forces retreated to the second line of forward positions closer to the settlement, then Russian forces retook the lost positions and presently Ukrainian forces has taken them a second time and now Russian forces try to retake the first line a second time." So Ukraine has broken some first defensive lines.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jun 23 2023 18:19 utc | 34

After the mobilization had brought up enough men the Russian military changed from BTGs to a mobile brigade structure. Under a higher commander the brigade holds two or three battalions that each consist of three or four companies of mobile infantry or tanks. Most of the artillery and auxiliary troops of the former BTGs are now concentrated under the brigade structure and can be used more flexible wherever they are needed. The tooth to tail ratio in the frontline battalions is now much higher than in a BTG and the whole structure is easier to command.
BTG is Battalion and not Brigade Tactical Group. Also the biggest advantage of Battalion over Brigade is more flexibility and ease to command, so it is not as you claim that brigade is easier to command than battalion.

Posted by: Do Not | Jun 23 2023 18:20 utc | 35

Ukraine is a launching pad for attacks to bleed Russia ...

Posted by: TG | Jun 23 2023 17:43 utc | 10

---

It hasn't worked out that way. Instead of Russia it is Germany being bled. Just today it was reported that German house prices fell by a record 6.8%. Many have said that an objective of this conflict is to de-industrialize Western Europe.

https://www.google.com/search?q=german+house+prices+fall

Posted by: too scents | Jun 23 2023 18:21 utc | 36

Posted by: Pacifica Advocate | Jun 23 2023 17:31 utc | 6

He didn't disappear. He died a few months ago.

Posted by: v | Jun 23 2023 18:22 utc | 37

A polite request to all those trolls who are taking delight in gleefully quoting Prigozhin in this, and other threads, could one of you please remind me of Priggo’s actual military rank; is he a General, a lieutenant-General, a Colonel, a lieutenant-Colonel, a chef de maison or a sous chef???

So much airtime is devoted to his outpourings, I’ve forgotten if he is actually someone important or not; help me out here guys. Thanks in advance...

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 18:24 utc | 38

@Posted by: Ludovic | Jun 23 2023 18:10 utc | 28

Seems like those people were right who said Prigozhin is a narcissistic loudmouth with political ambitions, or at least somebody who likes his own face to appear on TV.

@inkan1969

You have a quite simplistic approach to all of this. Maybe you have a chip on your shoulder to hate the russians or you were listening to western propaganda too often. Here's a small tip: You quoted Gerashchenko above; this man is one of the most egregious liars in a sea of misinformation. For him everything Ukraine does is great, everything the Russians do shows how weak/dangerous/primitive they are. No wonder almost noone wants to listen to you, if you repeat his lies.

Posted by: Roland | Jun 23 2023 18:24 utc | 39

Priggy is less of a Cassandra and more of a piggy. He does make for good copy, though.

Posted by: DilNir | Jun 23 2023 18:25 utc | 40

Posted by: horatio | Jun 23 2023 17:28 utc | 4:

UKr can not Fail. It can only be failed...

LOLOLOL!!!! Yup, that's the "Head in the sand" posture the UKr's been in for the past half century. It don't bother nobody else none! It's just something UKrs themselves have to deal with as their history rolls down that ominous slope.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2023 18:27 utc | 41

With the destruction of so much old military equipment, the entire situation from Maidan to February 2021's SMO appears to have been planned to eliminate this surplus, including the surplus Ukrainian labor force. The result of the change to the West's political economy in 1980 was a huge accumulations of surplus capital. America's wars of terror in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Libya have eliminated some surpluses but apparently not enough to reset the global trading regime for expansion. Perhaps NATO's destruction will create an opportunity for another great transformation.

Posted by: Wilikins | Jun 23 2023 18:28 utc | 42

@Pacifica Advocate,

I had a look online, it appears Pat Lang passed away in April, he'd had medical issues in recent years and my impression was that associates of his were doing the heavy lifting on his blog, that explains for me the change in it's character,
he was a fine man, he lived a full life and I salute him in his passing,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Patrick_Lang

Posted by: Matt | Jun 23 2023 18:29 utc | 43

The only thing that makes sense is Blackrock is making the decisions. Just like the many wars last century and centuries ago a small minority group held the keys to power just like today. Their media last century and even today especially Hollywood were key factors in shaping minds. Blackrock wants Ukraine to be cleaned out of the filthy goyim (thats what they think of us). How can these people have so much power over our lives? You can go to jail in the EU and other countries if you say only 5,999,999 died in their Hollywood extravaganza the holocaust. I know Russia has holocaust dissent laws but I've never heard of any author or others go to jail for it. Putin probably wrote the law to please his chabad masters. Is this war just like all the rest, is Putin in on it?

Let's start talking about peace talks, again!

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 18:30 utc | 44

@jpc, #5:

There are million or so Ukrainians in Canada, and Canada is like half-Gringoes, no? I would presume manpads are as available in Canada as in USA. When would you expect them start deploying them in Toronto/Montreal/Vancouver???

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2023 18:32 utc | 45

Question. What are the Ukraine Oblasts that received General Mobilization Orders this week? I think Kiev was one. What were the other?

Posted by: Ramsey Glissadevil | Jun 23 2023 18:33 utc | 46

@33 Irish.

Sounds plausible. However there comes a point when everyone knows who's responsible. Maybe we are there already and the RoW simply decides to hit back. The US and NATO particularly after Afghanistan look very weak.

Posted by: Judge Barbier | Jun 23 2023 18:34 utc | 47

Millions of angry Ukrainians throughout Europe. Lot's of manpads etc are available. What happens then? Extortion and blowback through European countries of epic proportions. Bet those scenarios weren't "gamed" by the planners. The genie is well and truly out.

That's the money shot. So many angry people, or amoral people who see opportunities in a plane shot down here or there, or blackmailing the threat of doing so. A few motivated people could do a lot of damage with very little investment. Worked like a top for UBL.

Posted by: D | Jun 23 2023 18:36 utc | 48

@jpc, #7:

Well, we do expect that some in Ukraine are getting paid for what is happening to their fellow countrymen. It's not just idiots toadying.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2023 18:36 utc | 49

@Inkan1969

Its not false concern for Ukrainian lives. It is concern NATO is admitting defeat for now, but planning on real WW III in a few years, so they are making sure Putin doesn't get them.

Or to put it another way, I dont care about the mindless Ukrainian zombies being skaughtered by the Russians. People dumb enough to die for Zelensky and promises of materialistic subservience to the west deserve to die. As a matter of fact, I find all the mindless civilians just as guilty. The conscripts, esp eastern Ukrainians I do care for, but most have long fked to Russia, or were killed in Ukro army one and two.

However, what I really care about is how many Russian troops will have to be garrison ed in Novorussoya because they cant recruit anybody who lives there to do the job, not because of insurgency or untrustworthiness, but bevause they ate all deaf. That means after Russia takes Ukraine, there will be no pool of former ukrainians to form the defense of Novorussoya from NATO.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 18:39 utc | 50

I'm quite enjoying the my recent run of seeing the substance of my comments materialising into the next MoA article..

Gonna try push my luck here and veer slightly off topic:

Modi's trip to the US.

RT did an Op Ed:
https://www.rt.com/india/578486-modi-embraces-biden/

Dreizin also covered it:
https://thedreizinreport.com/2023/06/20/dreizin-endorses/

Anyone have any more articles analysing the implications of the trip and its accompanying deals, and how or if this signals any change vis a vis India/Russia and BRICS? I wonder if b. feels like taking a break from frontline reporting for a day... wink wink

Posted by: Et Tu | Jun 23 2023 18:39 utc | 51

Addition to my #49: It's the Europeans that seem to be purely toadying up to Gringoes that is somewhat puzzling. I have no rational explanation for this stupidity, except that race may have something to do with this folly.

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2023 18:39 utc | 52

Posted by: Ramsey Glissadevil | Jun 23 2023 18:33 utc | 46

The two oblasts I’ve seen mentioned are Ivano-Frankovsk (in the far west) and Chernogov (in the north). I‘ve only seen mention of one district in Kiev getting mobilisation orders.

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 18:41 utc | 53

Prigozhin has gone mental and just declared he is going to march on Moscow. Not a joke. I was watching Russians With Attitude when he made the announcement. They were speechless....

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 23 2023 18:44 utc | 54

Some barflies here may object to my reference to race. My apologies if so. I did it because Europeans may have some genuine concerns from the perspectives of security, although that's kind of a stretch today since Russia is not USSR. But for Canada and Australia to be as neck deep in this cesspool as them Gringoes, I've got to relate such mentality to race

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2023 18:46 utc | 55

The major concern is that the Neocons, incapable of any form of self reflection or intellectual reasoning will keep escalating the conflict so as to force Russia into a serious response.

Then they will have the excuse they ‘ need’ to allow NATO troops on the ground. The F 16 aircraft is planned to be flying from Roumania ( because it is geographically the closest to Crimea ) or Poland, where there is a viceral desire to ‘ stick it ‘ to Russia. These are deliberate ploys to get Moscow to attack the airfields these outdated aircraft will be flying from so giving them the ‘ legitimate ‘ reason to call Article 5.

Except : 1 ) Article 5 isn’t a guaratee that all NATO states will join in. Basically from what I understand, it gives the various members the choice to do so.
2 ). I’m certain that the Russian military is well aware of this deceit and has several effective responses to it.

Which should upset ‘ Senator ‘ # Utter wanker Lindsay Graham no end.

Posted by: Beibdnn. | Jun 23 2023 18:50 utc | 56

Минобороны России

Все распространяемые в социальных сетях от имени Е.Пригожина сообщения и видеокадры о якобы «нанесении МО РФ удара по «тыловым лагерям «ЧВК «Вагнер», не соответствуют действительности и являются информационной провокацией.

▫️ Вооруженные силы Российской Федерации продолжают выполнение боевых задач на линии соприкосновения с вооруженными силами Украины в районе проведения специальной военной операции.

🔹 Минобороны России

All the messages and video frames distributed on social networks on behalf of E. Prigozhin about the alleged "strike by the Russian Defense Ministry against the "rear camps" of the Wagner PMCs do not correspond to reality and are an information provocation.

The Armed Forces of the Russian Federation continue to carry out combat missions on the line of contact with the armed forces of Ukraine in the area of a special military operation.

🔹 Russian Ministry of Defense

Posted by: Citan | Jun 23 2023 18:51 utc | 57

"Let's hope that at least some folks will learn from this."

I rather hope the opposite: that the Ukrainians and their NATO advisors learn nothing and continue to be destroyed, along with their equipment and Nazi ideology.

Posted by: Belle | Jun 23 2023 18:53 utc | 58

march on Moscow

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 23 2023 18:44 utc | 54

I’ve a vague feeling that has been tried before, once or twice. Can’t quite recall how it turned out...

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 18:53 utc | 59

Posted by: Beibdnn. | Jun 23 2023 18:50 utc | 57

GUR got caught trying to bring cesium-137 to Ukraine. The problem is they will one way or the other cause the sort of incident Lindsay Graham was talking about. It is a real risk now, since a US senator group announced that they will view a nuclear incident in Ukraine as an article 5 trigger. RU doesn't necessarily know if this is an actual threat or not, and when an inevitable incident occurs, they might simply do something to pre-empt it.

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 23 2023 19:00 utc | 60

Posted by: TG | Jun 23 2023 17:43 utc | 10

But the western elites don't care. Ukraine is a launching pad for attacks to bleed Russia, and it's not over yet. Expect more attacks on Russia proper from Ukraine - and Russia can't really retaliate, ... Or something else nasty - the Western elites are amoral and vicious and have no consideration for collateral damage in their pursuit of ultimately breaking up and looting Russia.

Nothing new.

Chechnya all over again.

Except this time the Chechens are on Putin's side ...

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 23 2023 19:01 utc | 61

Well these utterly stupid people - several of whom are on the board of the ISW - also believed Iraq would hail the West as heroes and a competent government - where every faction would be happy - would be easy to form there.

Posted by: Gail Storm | Jun 23 2023 19:01 utc | 62

Fabled enemies. Come, talk to me, tell me what you would like me to do. I just bled for russia, but now i hate them bevause, they uh, bombed me...

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 23 2023 19:02 utc | 63

Question:

Barflies; put yourself in the shoes of a 2 star in Brussels HQ who planned, organized, trained, and commanded these decimated Kiev forces. what are you going to reccomend to the higher ups ? What is NATO going to do come Spring 2025

Posted by: Exile | Jun 23 2023 19:03 utc | 64

Surprised to see "Handelsblatt" publish a truthful cover. Germany's main stream press is now much like that of the 3rd Reich. Main point: The U.S. capitalist Military Industrial Complex ensures that lunatics, morons and corrupt fools (e.g. Nuland, Blinken, Biden, Graham, Rice, Zelensky, Obama, etc.) obtain decision-making influence with predictable consequences. The point is that much money is being made by the insiders via this game. Never mind the fact that millions of humans are sacrificed in Vietnam, Iraq, Libya, Ukraine, Afghanistan, etc. Where's my Brandy?

Posted by: NewJerseyJoe | Jun 23 2023 19:03 utc | 65

Matt is right about Lang having died. In later years his views became more conservative. But I mainly remember him from being banned, along with Juan Cole, from the PBS News Hour, probably for his comments about Israel.

Posted by: Bart Hansen | Jun 23 2023 19:05 utc | 66

The two oblasts I’ve seen mentioned are Ivano-Frankovsk (in the far west) and Chernogov (in the north). I‘ve only seen mention of one district in Kiev getting mobilisation orders.

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 18:41 utc | 53


Thank you Andy. I have a 38 year-old male friend who lives in Zhytomyr Oblast. He's a peacenik and I was worried about him.

Posted by: Ramsey Glissadevil | Jun 23 2023 19:07 utc | 67

They're not stupid. They're calculating and evil and full of arrogance and hubris. But not stupid. Just fucking lazy and ....evil.

Someone much more eloquent than I wrote something on the banality of evil. To think our civilization could end because of the likes of a Biden, Nuland, Sullivan or the rest of the clown posse ..what a cosmic tragedy. These unworthy persons erasing humanity from the earth.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 23 2023 19:07 utc | 68

Hopefully, all they heard from the doubleplusgoodduckspeaking quackologists is a lot of incomprehensible quacking -- worse than a word salad.

Posted by: William Haught | Jun 23 2023 19:07 utc | 69

L'« Occident » a poussé l'Ukraine dans une contre-offensive sans espoir basée sur de fausses évaluations et des attentes folles.

Les troupes russes auraient été faibles, non entraînées et non préparées à une attaque ukrainienne. D'un autre côté, on prétendait que les hommes ukrainiens fraîchement mobilisés qui recevaient des armes et un entraînement «occidentaux» auraient la quantité et la qualité nécessaires pour vaincre les défenses russes.

On a dit aux troupes ukrainiennes, ainsi qu'au public, de croire à ces conneries.

Maintenant l'occident dit qu'il va reconstruire l'Ukraine sans l'exploiter...

Les troupes Ukrainiennes vont-elles croire black-rock sachant que Joe Biden a été sénateur durant des décades du Delaware qui est un "paradis fiscal inside", et sachant que c'est V. Poutine qui a remis les oligarques à leur place qui ne s'en portent pas plus mal, oligarques qui sont à l'origine des malheurs de l'Ukraine.

Posted by: christophe nicolas | Jun 23 2023 19:09 utc | 70

Posted by: Exile | Jun 23 2023 19:03 utc | 65

Barflies; put yourself in the shoes of a 2 star in Brussels HQ who planned, organized, trained, and commanded these decimated Kiev forces.

OK, I’m in that mindset...

what are you going to reccomend to the higher ups ?

...promote me to 3-star???

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 19:11 utc | 71

This one is starting to give me some Red October is coming in June vibes:

https://www.rt.com/russia/578544-mod-wagner-statement/

"Wagner chief spreads misinformation — MOD"

DETAILS TO FOLLOW - BREAKING NEWS

wtf is going on w these guys, can they not keep it together for more than a week?

Posted by: Et Tu | Jun 23 2023 19:12 utc | 72

Great Syyrskiiiyy just gave an interview to guardian and said his winning strategy is directly taken from Romans and Greeks. Said war is always the same, encircle the enemy.

Posted by: rk | Jun 23 2023 19:13 utc | 73

Arch Bungle @62: "Except this time the Chechens are on Putin's side ..."

And the Chechens are almost fanatically pro-Russia now.

Don't be surprised when after the Ukraine is denazified the Ukrainians become fanatically pro-Russian too.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 19:15 utc | 74

I am interested in why so many western [experts] predicted a Ukrainian victory. Why? In the face of Russian numerical, fire and air superiority - defending a fortified area maybe 40 km to 60 Km deep; what could have resulted in the UAF prevailing? The only answer that makes sense to me is that they believed the RF had terrible morale and capabilities. A final attack would cause a mass rout within RF ranks? "We have only to kick in the door...".

These experts take their cue from the military/intelligence agencies and so do we have group think delusion here on a catastrophic scale? I think that is the only possible conclusion, but am happy to be educated. But really, any semi-serious student of Russia and war would realise that the outcome that has [thus far] occurred was likely, if not nearly certain.

Now I am sure that everyone in this "expert" and indeed "professional" sphere with half a brain has hedged their analysis and opinions with their personal a%*e covering emails etc. However this is an indictment of how far removed from reality is prevailing western informed assessment and opinion. And this does not bode well for the future.

The media spin is of course that the Ukraine continues to win but we all know that is BS. But then we all knew that whatever ocurred the Ukraine would "win" and Russia would suffer further "defeats". To borrow a well known phrase, it looks like the UAF is "winning itself to death" just now.

If, as I do, you do not see the "West" as a monolithic bloc, but instead as a competing and overlapping series of nations, and DC interest groups and cabals, then this has been their wake up call. But now what? How does this constellation of interests actually back down and allow peace to occur. Who would Russia negotiate with? How could they trust them? Whoever they are. [PS IMHO Biden is a senile and corrupt low IQ individual with demnentia, a figurehead in an adminstration run by people detached from reality and protected by a tame media]

I expect to see Russian resolution now to finish this thing, and increasing western panic and random actions by one group or another to escalate. And therein lies the danger. However short of WW3 and MAD (and that would be the result), this is now a Russian victory on their terms, but not necessarily a timescale of their own choosing. The [West] needs an exit route - but before that is needs some co-ordinated approach - and I do not see that at present. Just a confused path of dangerous ad hoc escalation.

Posted by: marcjf | Jun 23 2023 19:16 utc | 75

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 19:12 utc | 74

Seems like prigoznhine has become member of the Free Russia or something group that has been terrorizing Belgorod region. You became ideological buddies!

Posted by: alek_a | Jun 23 2023 19:17 utc | 76

Exile @65: "What is NATO going to do come Spring 2025"

2 star in Brussels HQ: "Guys, this isn't working. How about we just stop being assholes to the Russians? It's worth a try."

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 19:19 utc | 77

Then he also posted a number of angry speeches in which he promises to "bring back justice" and make things even with Shoigu, whom he accused of cowardly running from Rostov-on-Don "like a woman". He literally declared a war against Russian military.
Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 19:12 utc | 74

He's most likely onto the chabad problem too. Good call them out as much as you can! People became docile and afraid calling them out. Every. Single. Time.!

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 19:19 utc | 78

Пользуясь публичным конфликтом, ЦИПСО сейчас активно вбрасывает различные фейки в контексте идущей ситуации. Цель понятная - на фоне провала наступления, максимально поживиться на этом конфликте. Будьте аккуратны и ориентируйтесь на официальные заявления с верифицированных государственных ресурсов.

Taking advantage of the public conflict, CIPSO is now actively throwing in various fakes in the context of the current situation. The goal is clear - against the background of the failure of the offensive, to profit as much as possible from this conflict. Be careful and focus on official statements from verified government resources.

CC

Posted by: repost | Jun 23 2023 19:19 utc | 79

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 19:18 utc | 79

There is nothing convoluted or conflicting with MH17 or Kakhovka. Stop spreading Western propaganda.

Join your buddy Prigogzine in his march on Moscow to bring prosperity and equity (not to mention washing machines) to those backwards Russians.

Posted by: alek_a | Jun 23 2023 19:24 utc | 80

Posted by: Ramsey Glissadevil | Jun 23 2023 19:07 utc | 68

Well, despite all the bluster and flannel that is going on, sincere hopes from here that your friend comes through all this unscathed.

All too easy to forget there are actual human people tangled up in a place they don’t want to be.

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 19:24 utc | 81

Thanks b, excellent work as always.
Just a couple of thoughts.
Prigozhin is either a useful idiot or a court jester. Either way he must have Putin's approval; it would be easy enough to shut him up.
Equally clearly, Russia is prepared for and perhaps expecting a full-blown NATO assault. NATO is quite possibly delusional enough to attempt it.

Posted by: pasha | Jun 23 2023 19:25 utc | 82

When the FT broke this story yesterday Sullivan was to be accompanied by Victoria Nuland. Bloomberg drops Nuland and adds further detail on the participants.

US and EU to Court Brazil and India on Ukraine’s Peace Blueprint

Senior US and European Union officials will gather over the weekend with diplomats from several countries in the so-called global south in an effort to engage key nations that have remained mostly neutral in the face of Russia’s war in Ukraine.

The meeting, which will take place in Denmark, is expected to include envoys from South Africa, Brazil and India, as well as US National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen’s chief of staff and a senior Ukrainian official, according to people familiar with the matter.

China has yet to confirm whether it will attend and the full list of participants hasn’t been finalized, one of the people said. Brazil will be represented by President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva’s chief diplomatic adviser, according to the people, who asked not to be identified because the plans are private.

... continues

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-06-23/us-and-eu-to-court-brazil-and-india-on-ukraine-s-peace-formula

Posted by: too scents | Jun 23 2023 19:26 utc | 83

Exile @65: "What is NATO going to do come Spring 2025"

2 star in Brussels HQ: "Guys, this isn't working. How about we just stop being assholes to the Russians? It's worth a try."
Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 23 2023 19:19 utc | 80

2 star general not going to be 3 star then!


Posted by: jpc | Jun 23 2023 19:28 utc | 84

Well meaning people (B) often fall into a trap. They project a sincerity of motivation or belief onto their enemy that does not exist. The juicy (((neocons))) NEVER had to believe there was any chance of "military" success by Ukraine. As long as someone is killing Russians and Russians are only killing other goy; THAT is the definition of "success".

Posted by: Just Deplorable | Jun 23 2023 19:28 utc | 85

Martin Armstrong, in his private feed, states that his Ukrainian sources say Ukraine lost 7,000 men in one day, know they are on the ropes, and plan to use Storm Shadows against Russian targets in the hopes of starting WW3..Martin, who has been against the war since its inception, fears that the Ukrainian crazies, combined with the US neocons, may succeed....

Posted by: pyrrhus | Jun 23 2023 19:28 utc | 86

The video someone released is by default assumption a CIPSO. It shows nothing at all, seems Hollywood production, and could be from any burned AFU trench on the front.

AFU even ordered 1200 RU uniforms to create their fakes, remember?

Same thing with "Volunteer corps" invading Belgorod: created by British PR team, aided by SAS and manned mostly by Polish mercenaries, some AFU and a few Russian neonazis. No one talks about this volunteer corps anymore. Distraction from Bakhmut AFU disaster.

Dam fell. Distraction from Zaporozhye offensive.

ZNPP scare. Distraction from Zaporozhye offensive.

"Prigozhin". Distraction from Zaporozhye offennsive. More recently, perhaps from Kupyansk and Lyman offensives.

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 23 2023 19:28 utc | 87

Well they've got a backup plan:

Force an incident at the znpp and use a radiation release to trip natos article 5 to declare war on russia.

I just hope the iaea is going to honestly report any attacks on the plant.

So far they've refused to acknowledge Ukrainian shelling of it...so I'm actually worried about this. Lord knows Biden isn't going to be able control this.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 23 2023 19:29 utc | 88

takes some deep discerning to label perpetual liars as "wrong" yet taking their lies at face value to do so. The proUkrainery chicanery here is nearly as amusing. Ascribing agency to the victims, no matter how culpable and hatefilled. These may all simply be tells. Is anyone really dumb enough to play along with the fictions? Besides the antisemitic natural allies of NAZI's?

Posted by: Not Ewe | Jun 23 2023 19:29 utc | 89

All of this analysis only makes sense if one assumes the goal of the West is a 'Ukrainian victory' (whatever that is). If the goal of the west is to leave Ukraine an utterly failed state, without men and a future, one that Russia has to spend billions restoring, then the counteroffensive was and will be a success. Arms manufacturers receive new orders, Ukraine is denied to Russia by virtue of being a smoking crater and the USA reminds everyone that if they can't win all the time they're gonna wreck the joint.

It was planned to fail by managerial grey men in DC. The world is run by them and everything they touch withers.

Posted by: Patroklos | Jun 23 2023 19:30 utc | 90

JustAMaverick no. 54

He's in the clutches of the North Atlantic Terrorist Organisation.

Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jun 23 2023 19:30 utc | 91

Posted by: Oriental Voice | Jun 23 2023 18:46 utc | 55

" But for Canada and Australia to be as neck deep in this cesspool as them Gringoes, I've got to relate such mentality to race."

As an Australian, I concur with your analysis.The majority of Australians are enculturated to see themselves as the descendants of, or naturalized initiates to, a superior Anglo-Saxon civilization. We are, at our core, racist. Witness the ease with which we have en-mass adopted Russiaphobic or Sinophobic attitudes towards two nations which bare no enmity towards us.


Posted by: Andrew Celestina | Jun 23 2023 19:30 utc | 92

Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 19:12 utc | 74
Posted by: Sour | Jun 23 2023 19:18 utc | 79

All well and good, but you still haven’t explained why Prigozhin is somebody who is actually important. Is he the new war correspondent for the Daily Mail or something?

Posted by: West of England Andy | Jun 23 2023 19:30 utc | 93

NAFO scrunt Inkan: “Losing is the new winning”

Posted by: nwwoods | Jun 23 2023 19:31 utc | 94

Posted by: pasha | Jun 23 2023 19:25 utc | 86
Prigozhin is either a useful idiot or a court jester. Either way he must have Putin's approval; it would be easy enough to shut him up.

I don't think so, he knows who owns Russia, chabad and he's sick of it. Maybe his statements make lots of sense. Blackrock is also chabad. The real owners of this conflict getting filthy rich.

Posted by: gringo | Jun 23 2023 19:32 utc | 95

@ Gail Storm | Jun 23 2023 19:01 utc | 63

Maybe they’re stupid. Or maybe they made it up to steamroll over objections held by weak or disinterested minds. “Stop worrying and learn to love the invasion!” /s

Posted by: natokraine | Jun 23 2023 19:33 utc | 96

" I can see many comments praising wagner efficiency and professionalism. Now Prigozhin started telling the truth of Russian army, everyone is "OMG maybe he's gone mad" :)"

Both of your statements can be true.

I actually believe Prigo has taken too many shells to the brain and gone bananas.

Any serious coup plotter would never announce the coup on social media not to mention his organizatikn gets its ammo from the enemies he wants to destroy. Lol

Posted by: Comandante | Jun 23 2023 19:33 utc | 97

@73 well Wagner is a commercial operation. All the west had to do is send a billion his way and he might touch off a russian civil war.

I dont really believe it, but the data is showing it as a possibility.

Hell I don't want to believe it.

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 23 2023 19:34 utc | 98

Just reported on Zero Hedge....

Wagner Chief Declares Full-On 'Coup' Against Russian Defense Ministry
Tyler Durden's Photo
by Tyler Durden
Friday, Jun 23, 2023 - 03:11 PM

There are breaking reports that Wagner chief Yevgeny Prigozhin has finally completely broken off relations with the Russian military, and essentially "declared war" on the Russian Ministry of Defense (MoD).

According to a prominent translator who has examined freshly released audio of Prigozhin's fiery message on Telegram, the Wagner leader begins with: "PMC Wagner Commanders’ Council made a decision: the evil brought by the military leadership of the country must be stopped. They neglect the lives of soldiers. They forgot the word “justice”, and we will bring it back."

Posted by: JustAMaverick | Jun 23 2023 19:35 utc | 99

Lindsay Graham, with his neocon allies, is now pushing a Senate resolution that if any radiation leads from the Zaporozhye Nuclear facility, that would justify the US nuking Russia...As if that wouldn't result in the total destruction of the US and Europe....

Posted by: pyrrhus | Jun 23 2023 19:36 utc | 100

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