Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
June 24, 2023
On Prigozhin’s Insurrection Farce

Some thoughts on the ongoing insurrection attempt in Russia.

I wonder who or what lured Yevgeny Prigozhin into staging this farce.

In twelve or so hours things are likely to have calmed down.

'Western' anal-cysts will spend weeks fantasizing about their wished for outcome which, of course, was never to happen.

The whole story reminds me of Machiavelli's warning against mercenaries:

I say, therefore, that the arms with which a prince defends his state are either his own, or they are mercenaries, auxiliaries, or mixed.

Mercenaries and auxiliaries are useless and dangerous; and if one holds his state based on these arms, he will stand neither firm nor safe; for they are disunited, ambitious and without discipline, unfaithful, valiant before friends, cowardly before enemies; they have neither the fear of God nor fidelity to men, and [one’s own] destruction is deferred only so long as the attack is; for in peace one is robbed by them, and in war by the enemy. The fact is, that they have no other attraction or reason for keeping the field than a trifle of stipend, which is not sufficient to make them willing to die for you. …

I wish to demonstrate further the infelicity of these arms [i.e., mercenaries]. The mercenary captains are either capable men or they are not; if they are, you cannot trust them, because they always aspire to their own greatness, either by oppressing you, who are their master, or others contrary to your intentions; but if the captain [i.e., the leader of the mercenaries] is not skillful, you are ruined in the usual way [i.e., you will lose the war].

Comments

@ Posted by: Apollyon | Jun 24 2023 22:49 utc | 575
@ Posted by: GT Stroller | Jun 24 2023 23:07 utc | 595
Because it’s Sunday chaps I’ll try my best not to blaspheme incase anyone gets triggered so let me just exclaim to your selective response to my comments on this thread and the way the same old left over cold vomit you still insist on shoving down our throats as the great bounty of BrexShit
J fucking C! Do you guys have no inner voice of doubt? Are you so wedded to your religion of ‘sovereignty’ and ‘mahcuntery back’ that Weatherspoon fed to its park benchers to get them kippered?
Yeah how much money did Tim and the dodgy plumber from Pimlico pile in? How did they coordinate their media appearances? That’s just a couple of Toryboys.
Much of the dark money came Friday m the US based oligarchs who employed Bannon – The guy who crows how they and he managed to help bring your crappy BrexShit about. He claimed coordinating the neo-petty xenophobia from Sweden to The Ukraine , along with all stops in between. Including the EDL’rs and Kippers of fake Brit Tommy and Fartage. That plus FB and Twatter and their algos, and of course the foreign postal vote company that absolutely delivers!
LePen btw, is a veritable saint compared to that lot of tossers, she is not someone I would support but many French have not been given any better choice as they are forced to hand over the Republics Crown Jewels to the Pirate Bankers of Wall St and the City, as we have done in the U.K. since the advent of monetarism. Here she is blowing up the Narrative being hung around her neck like a tyre set on fire by LauraKoftheCIA, who has flown up to the top of the pole at the BBC as the mockingbird she is.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83NsHR5-0-Y
Ms. Le Pen
I expect that the French peasant memory still remembers how they were enthused under Napoleon to ‘take Russia’ and how that ended up with Russia in Paris! As maybe the Germans should remember that when they attempted the same , the Bear turned up in Berlin and they had decades of partition.
For sure us Brits celebrate our Defeats at the same attempts by setting our poet laureates to tout failure as some glorious victory – into the valley rode the dumb fucks. Etc.
I hear the same kind of bleating when I see you guys come galloping in, to STILL defend that great con on our daily lives and connections in Europe , just so some oligarch global robbers can escape from a level playing field with some ‘Freeport’s’ – the only one which will persist is the one that has the City of London in it!
Don’t ask again or you’ll get more! Lol.
Anyhow back to the matter at hand – Priggy and co have managed to play their hands to the best effect.
There are no more physically able prisoners to recruit;
The ones who did join have delivered their contractual obligations and many have been wounded and killed;
Most will want to take their rewards and freedom and new life that they have miraculously found and earned;
These who want to follow their new careers can do so as full members of RF militaries or carry on in the PMC work against Western PMC’s infesting hundreds , thousands of places around the world.
Wagners over popularity at the expense of national forces has been defused.
Priggy is a hero and has happily laid down his reputation for the Greater Good. Not a single video clip of him over the last few days shows any problems between him , Wagner and the Russian people on the ground talking to the musicians as they deftly disguised a mass movement of forces under the noses of the natzo dreamers. The amount of smiling faces and selfies tells you what is the truth and what is diversion.
As a said some weeks ago this SMO moved from Rope-a-dope to a bullfight with the matadors infuriating and constantly flaunting the Red-rag infront of the bloodied Ukrop bull. Olay!
What’s left? The crazy old elites can aim to destroy the world and expect to spend a hundred years on n some deep , very deep, bunkers eating all the dried eggs they have been accumulating this year. Expecting to emerge bro a depopulated world with their wealth and power intact.
It must be clear to them that these deep, secret, shelters are known and will be the first to be kinzhelled. They will be cinders as will all their treasure!
The Empire is dead , long live the new multipolar world.
Amen.

Posted by: DunGroanin | Jun 25 2023 8:08 utc | 801

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 7:46 utc | 800
By the way – notice the trolls have (mostly) vanished. Funny that …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 25 2023 8:25 utc | 802

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 7:46 utc | 800
One more for the road:
The meme that the Russian Army would stand by and wait for Prigo to coup Moscow.
The same Russian army that allegedly bombed Wagner troops near Bakhmut …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 25 2023 8:27 utc | 803

Dont know how old Prigozin is but this just seemed to be the ultimate retirement party for a good and loyal friend to me. Theyll be laughing their behinds off at parties for years.

Posted by: Scallywag | Jun 25 2023 8:28 utc | 804

Prigozhin’s march to Moscow is comparable to the 1931 US veterans’ Bonus march to Washinton DC to redress several grievances. The most egregious is Prigozhin allegation that Shoigu/Russian MOD targeted missiles at the Wagner Group camps, killing many Wagner soldiers. If this is true, the traitor who sold out to Nuland is Shoigu, not Prigozhin.

Posted by: Willow | Jun 25 2023 8:30 utc | 805

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 25 2023 8:27 utc | 803
Yup. Non-contradictory logical argument is not their forte.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 8:46 utc | 806

From Twitter account alifarhat79 :
“How you make $6.2 billion dollars?
1- Tell the CIA you’re planning a coup on Russia
2- Take $6.2 billion dollars
3- Don’t do shit”
“Plot twist: Prigozhin was approached by the US to do a coup in Russia for billions of dollars. He tells Putin about it, Putin agrees. They keep the money.”
Interesting huh?

Posted by: Nanker | Jun 25 2023 8:46 utc | 807

Thanks to Karlofi, Hack, Bungle and Bemildered for bits of sanity in the general troll hubub. It’s all interesting, but the timing is at best unfortunate since it will of course affect the Vilnius conference. Western MSM is already playing this as ‘isolated Putin losing his grip in the face of a true populist’ (BBC5 this morning).
In fact, Prigozhin was a successful oligarch, connected to Putin from his St. Petersburg days. His character is geared to the next big contract, and it’s been obvious for months that it would not be possible to sweep him under a rug during post-Bakhmut integration. What specifically kicked off the “march for justice” we still don’t know, but the background is conflict with Shoigu – not Putin, not coup, much more a feudal lord protesting about another noble to his emperor with his retainers arrayed behind him. Almost medieval Japanese… He wanted a personal exit plan and the RF wanted Wagners’ experienced squaddies as part of the regular army. I suspect Putin briefed Lukashenko and the result is a win-win. Prigozhin could even turn up as prime contractor for a Belorussian PMC, since his media fubar still has to be balanced against credit for Bakhmut.

Posted by: TPaine | Jun 25 2023 8:49 utc | 808

Posted by: Milites | Jun 25 2023 8:05 utc | 804

True, but Greiner’s cyclical evolution/revolution theory suggests that those institutions themselves are subject to a cyclical process, where every solution (evolution) eventually becomes, in itself, a problem requiring a solution(revolution).

Indeed. That’s the “happy path” of Greiner’s growth model. Potential exists at every stage for mutation, variation, catastrophic failure.
It would be great if Greiner’s model could predict the deviations from the ideal as they are far more common ….

All we have now are video and pictures that raise more questions than answers, and an official narrative that, like the one concocted for the opening stages of the SMO, is only a semblance of the truth. Quite appropriate really.

We again are looking at a “provisional reality”.
Baudrillard’s Simulacrum.
In this case a simulacra of a simulacra of a reality known only by Putin, Prigozhin and the inner circle of the MoD.
The system’s view is the only way to penetrate this simulacrum, for no matter how distorted and concealed the facts are, systems must follow deterministic principles. Macro-analysis.

The only constant in all this is Ukraine’s inability to affect a military solution to its mounting problems.

I can imagine Greiner’s model and the system’s view I applied earlier will apply equally to the Ukrainian State.
If Russia has only Wagner to deal with, imagine the problems that the Ukrainian state will have with it’s myriad semi-autonomous factions.
It would be odd if only Russia but not Ukraine is subject to the kind inter-organisational conflict we just saw. That question needs to be asked.
And another:
Will we see the same problem with the Rosgvardiya? It resembles Wagner in certain structural respects:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Guard_of_Russia

The National Guard of the Russian Federation (Russian: Федеральная служба войск национальной гвардии Российской Федерации, romanized: Federal’naya sluzhba voysk natsional’noy gvardii Rossiyskoy Federatsii, lit. ’Federal Service of the Troops of the National Guard of the Russian Federation’) or Rosgvardiya (Russian: Росгвардия) is the internal military force of Russia, comprising an independent agency that reports directly to the President of Russia Vladimir Putin under his powers as Supreme Commander-in-Chief and Chairman of the Security Council.[2]
The National Guard is separate from the Russian Armed Forces.[2] A law signed by Putin established the federal executive body in 2016. The National Guard has the stated mission of securing Russia’s borders, taking charge of gun control, combating terrorism and organized crime, protecting public order and guarding important state facilities.[3]
The establishment of the National Guard was seen[by whom?] as an effort to enhance efficiency and to avoid duplication of responsibilities within the Russian security system,[4] a result of an extensive assessment of strategic challenges facing Russia.[5]p. 6 Others have accused the Rosgvardyia of being an attempt by Putin to create a private army to control civil strife or attempts of a colour revolution,[4] not only domestically but also abroad in friendly regimes.[6]

Will the same system’s forces that affected Wagner emerge again here?
I’d imagine Putin is already thinking ahead …

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 25 2023 8:54 utc | 809

Question:
Any insight on Prigozhin‘s overseas assets ?
Siezed ? Frozen ? Or ignored ?

Posted by: Exile | Jun 25 2023 8:55 utc | 810

Kiev’s page on priggy’s overseas assets (thin)
https://sanctions.nazk.gov.ua/en/sanction-person/602/

Posted by: Exile | Jun 25 2023 9:00 utc | 811

@Cherrycoke
“There are some Nazis among them, and generally the party is too xenophobic for my taste.”
Well, if you would have expierenced how Germany has changed since Merkel opened the borders in 2015 – a sharp increase in robbery, aggravated assault, rape and murder. The perpetrators are mostly Muslims. At night, one no longer feels safe on the streets in the cities. The immigration has led to a sharp increase in rents. And everywhere aggressive crackheads: https://youtube.com/shorts/l1Sf5dMrFEo?feature=share
https://youtube.com/shorts/4HCi50lVrIY?feature=share

Posted by: Apollyon | Jun 25 2023 9:02 utc | 812

Sound track for the movie. Not listed by the tube, they have a softened version, ok too.
https://my.mail.ru//mail/mana21kosov/video/1192/61264.html
https://youtu.be/CvNKx5ZPdTI

Posted by: Paco | Jun 25 2023 9:03 utc | 813

No. Not necessarily. And remember Prigozhin stated very clearly that this was not a coup directed at Putin.
Posted by: Tichy | Jun 25 2023 1:55 utc | 732
As far as I know, after the Putin’s speech, Prighozin included Putin in his beef with authorities.
Tichy is a Czech name. Wonder which person the nickname refers to. The Czechs always gave in to Germans and lately replaced a slightly rebellious president with a NATO dog.

Posted by: RB | Jun 25 2023 9:16 utc | 814

Re: 2015/16 Immigration wave in Germany
The Levant is 30% Christian. It’s my impression that most of the Syrian and Iraqi immigrants were middle class Christian’s fleeing CIA sponsored Jihadi’s.
The increase in crime you are seeing is likely coming from Albanian mafia clans.

Posted by: Exile | Jun 25 2023 9:16 utc | 815

“Well, if you would have experienced how Germany has changed since Merkel opened the borders in 2015 – a sharp increase in robbery, aggravated assault, rape and murder. The perpetrators are mostly Muslims. At night, one no longer feels safe on the streets in the cities. The immigration has led to a sharp increase in rents. And everywhere aggressive crackheads”
Congratulations Germany, you have achieved in 8 mere years what France took 40 years to achieve.

Posted by: Nanker | Jun 25 2023 9:34 utc | 816

“The increase in crime you are seeing is likely coming from Albanian mafia clans.”
No. The suspects in cases of serious bodily harm are mostly Syrians and Afghans.

Posted by: Apollyon | Jun 25 2023 9:35 utc | 817

@ not-THE-Simplicius | Jun 24 2023 19:04 utc | 416
Interesting evaluation, though your ideas enjoy the benefit of hindsight and the eventual outcome was not assured. This could have ended in civil war so if you are correct the stakes must be very very high.
An apparent mutiny must at least temporarily harm Russia geopolitically, introducing doubt in allies and neutral 3rd parties.
Why not flush out the 5th columnists quietly? Events in the next few weeks may provide answers.

Posted by: Teal | Jun 25 2023 9:40 utc | 818

Larry Johnson ‘explores’ the Maskirovka angle. I know some barflies will enjoy the article:
https://sonar21.com/russias-academy-award-winning-performance-for-best-coup-prigozhin-scores-best-actor/
What con you say about this guy.
Was shooting down an Il-22, a few helicopters and murdering Russian air force pilots part of this cunning plan? Humiliating the Russian Gov’t on the world stage and putting millions of people in a state of panic? Commandeering road blocks, ripping up highways, redeploying tens of thousands of troops… What about the chance of a miscalculation, since Russian doctrine provides the use of nukes if the State is considered to be under threat?
I wonder what they have on this guy for him to publish such crap. Or maybe he really is that dumb.
This is who you are if you still can’t comprehend what happened yesterday: a full blown retard. You never go full retard, Larry:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q

Posted by: Rubiconned | Jun 25 2023 9:45 utc | 819

Posted by: Teal | Jun 25 2023 9:40 utc | 818
Everyone also probably saw (including FSB) all those private jets that took off from Moscow during Prighozin saga. It’s rather easy to narrow down a list of potential 5th columnists, all of which will receive increased attention over coming months.
This was a very good event in shaking the tree of pro-anglos, so to say.

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 25 2023 9:48 utc | 820

@Rubiconned
No proof of dead pilots ot shot down helicopters. As I explained earlier, shooting on Wagner forces with helicopters would have required approval by Putin.
It’s an incredulous rumor that fails upon scrutiny. Furthermore, when did 22 Russian pilots suddenly become incompetent?

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 25 2023 10:01 utc | 821

This is how a russian warlord, who has earned his retirement, gets a 6 billion dollar severance pay from the CIA without shedding Russian blood after fighting againts the US empire for decades.

Posted by: Dave | Jun 25 2023 10:17 utc | 822

Dude,
They sure aren’t sending us their best trolls. Rubiconned sure needs some brush up training. Maybe Sunday early morning Langley time means the Night Shift is filled noobs.
Maybe we’ll see the ‘A’ team return Monday morning.
Or maybe after all that overtime Saturday, the Troll budget is blown and management slashes Troll hours.
Most Entertaining

Posted by: Exile | Jun 25 2023 10:40 utc | 823

@ Posted by: UWDude | Jun 25 2023 10:01 utc | 821
There are videos all over Telegram. I shared just one… they are obviously all over Western media, including infamous ones like
https://www.oryxspioenkop.com/2023/06/chefs-special-documenting-equipment.html
But, they were also reported within the pro Russian media. So you can’t just say they are all fake cos it’s on Oryx.
A significant number of pro Russian TG and Bloggers also seem to agree there were birds taken down, anywhere from 1 to 8:
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/52264
https://t.me/Slavyangrad/52270
There are reports of Prighzhin offering 50M to downed pilots too. That could be easier to track in future perhaps.
Even Martyanov mentions 1 x Ka-52:
https://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2023/06/my-talking-head_24.html
He has a habit of following the MoD’s ‘over and under’ selective style of reporting, depending on who’s losses he covers.
Good luck finding any reporting of any lost birds in official Russian media… if you think the truth is the first casualty in a war… just imagine the days following an attempted military coup in which the cospirators got to drive away unharmed.
Assume there really were 6-8 lost helos and it got reported on Tass/RT etc, there would be another coup within days asking for blood, this time by the population!
Suffice to say, it is highly unlikely all of the documented pics are fake, meaning, this was serious, and anyone still pushing the Maskirovka angle is either dumb or being paid to do it, imho of course.
Also, the targeting of rare EW air assets like Mi-8 MTPR (allegedly <3 shot down??) would be consistent with the theory that Prighozhin was working with the SBU. There are not many of these in service, missing 3 could create a significant hole in air operations, this would be an interesting angle to investigate, imo.

Posted by: Rubiconned | Jun 25 2023 10:42 utc | 824

1 Where is the evidence that Russian forces attacked the Wagner camp? If there is such evidence, please do share with all.
2 Where is the evidence that Wagner shot down Russian military aircraft which resulted in the death of no small number of pilots? If there is such evidence, please do share with all.
If 2 is correct, it is hard to explain and justify no investigation and no charges against those responsible. At the very, very least the public would have to be informed of what transpired and why no one is culpable.
The idea that the top military leadership is relieved at the request of a paramilitary manager, even if the paramilitary force in question is viewed as heroic, is simply fantasy, unless the paramilitary manager has hard evidence that definitively disqualifies the top military leadership. That applies even more during a war, and even more so during an existential war.
Now, if the paramilitary manager had such proof, would he need to resort to treason, an armed uprising in the midst of a war, to force the dismissal of the minister of defence and chief of the general staff? By the way, the minister of defence and chief of the general staff who are conducting a successful war, as agreed by most well versed and experienced military analysts.
The minister of defence and the chief of the general staff are clearly fully trusted by the commander in chief not only because they are conducting a successful war, but because they are competent and capable. Shoigu has been praised as a minister (Simplicius lists also criticism) and Gerasimov has a reputation rarely seen. Zaluzhni called him a military genius, a military mind like no other, and stated that he has read everything Gerasimov ever wrote.
Now, according to some, it is a feat of wisdom, strength and simply, the right thing, to let Prigozhyn and others involved in (who are they?) off for “treason”, a “stab in the back”, and despite allegations of aircraft downed and pilots killed, hence Russian blood spilled. All participants of the “coup” walk free, as if nothing happened.
That is how “adults” deal with treason, peacefully, a great example to the world, some say.
Well, I do not agree, even though I am aware of at least some of the intricacies of the situation which dictates the many elements that must be taken into account. Even though the developments were, thankfully, diffused without the force of arms, the whole event, and the solution, cast a shadow on the Russian leadership, with implications domestically and internationally. I don’t think that can seriously be disputed.

Posted by: JB | Jun 25 2023 10:48 utc | 825

Posted by: Dave | Jun 25 2023 10:17 utc | 822
Bullshit.
Posted by: Rubiconned | Jun 25 2023 9:45 utc | 819
I went over there and read Larry’s piece. The usual conspiracy theory that half the people interested have come up with. I wrote a comment explaining that everything is exactly as it seems, per my explanation that this was a spat between Prigozhin and the MoD, nothing more. Don’t know if he’ll publish it.
Per Occam’s Razor, the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. Not always, especially in the hacker and espionage worlds, but usually. Everything about Prigozhin’s past history and his recent behavior clearly shows he was an unreliable front man with political aspirations who simply lost it when it appeared his front man status and salary and connections to the business end of Wagner was about to be cut off by the MoD.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 10:59 utc | 826

Muh “reports” muh “pictures”. It’s on telegram, some Russians on Twitter say so… Even Matanyov says one was shot down.
That’s not proof. That is still rumors.
Instead of providing links to people reporting rumors and showing off pictures…
Please explain how Prighozin’m men shot down helicopters, unless they were being attacked by helicopters.
If they were being attacked by helicopters, who gabe the orders for an air assault on Wagner? Do you think Colonel Rusniki has that kind of authority?
No, it had to come from Putin himself.
If Putin gabe the orders to fire on Wagner, why did he stop 16 hours later? Do you really think he thought he would solve the problem by carpet bombing wagner, but then changed his mind? Why would he use choppers when he has missiles, and most of Wagner was not even moving, those who were on a predictable highway with no cover.
It’s all such a fanciful tale. But clearly None of it is true.
Again, any helicopters attacking Wagner would have been doing so without orders.
And then there is the whole 7 helicopters shot down by Wagner thing, as if they have That much AA.
Just get real.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 25 2023 11:03 utc | 827

Posted by: Rubiconned | Jun 25 2023 10:42 utc | 824
Zero evidence if all of it comes from Telegram channels and Youtube. I agree with Martyanov, these people make assertions with zero evidence. In this case, that includes Martyanov! He provides zero evidence in his blog and in his video yesterday about any of his claims.
Saying there will be official source is a “get out of jail free card” – no evidence is required. Fuck that.
Slavyangrad says Prigozhin got “favorable terms”. Where the hell does he see that? Prigozhin got kicked out of the country, lost control of Wagner, the unit will now be absorbed into the MoD, and Prigozhin will likely lose any financial assets he has inside the Russian financial system. According to Martyanov, boxes of cash were taken out of Wagner HQ in the amount of four billion rubles (without providing any actual evidence, unfortunately.)
This is all bullshit. Events are as I aver: this is a salary dispute between Prigozhin alone and the MoD. He pulled a stunt and he lost. Now he’s fucked.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 11:08 utc | 828

Also..
Saying “truth is the first victim in war, so my rumors must be true” is a cop out.
It is just as likely your rumors are the lies, as it is “they’ll never admit it”
So all that is left is logical process… ..and the idea Putin sent in swarms of choppers, got his ass kicked harder than Ukrainians ever have, to mercenary force with some mobile anti airvraft, but no complexes activated, is really fucking stupid.
But then, these rumors get even stupider, because apparently, after these 7 choppers are shot down, Putin gives up.. and accepts Prigozhins surrender. What, not only that after Prigozhin shoots down 7 choppers, (with apparently no losses), he then decided to surrender to Putin, gaining not a fucking thing except exile.
I mean, come the fuck on.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 25 2023 11:15 utc | 829

The Russian Telegram channel Operatsiya Z: Voyenkory Russkoy Vesny on the size of Wagner’s raiding force:

‼️🇬🇧🏴‍☠️More than 1000 pieces of Wagner PMC military equipment moved to Moscow through the Voronezh region: tanks, infantry fighting vehicles, MLRSs, trucks, buses and cars
▪️The first column (about 350 pieces of equipment) crossed the border of the Voronezh region immediately after midnight on June 24. There were 9 tanks, 4 Tigers, a Grad MLRS, a howitzer, dozens of trucks and hundreds of cars in the column. This column later demolished a barrier of trucks and construction equipment at the 590th kilometer of M-4 Don, Baza reports.
▪️At about 5:00, the 2nd column drove into the region, even bigger one—approximately 375 units of equipment, it moved towards the city of Buturlinovka—to the military airfield.
▪️At 07:00, the 3rd column drove into the Voronezh region—about 100 units: 3 tanks, 2 anti-aircraft guns, buses, trucks and cars. The column moved along the M-4 Don highway.
▪️At 09:00, the 4th column of military equipment crossed the border of the region—212 units.

If this report is true, there were 12 tanks in the raiding force, meaning, it was more powerful than people were assuming yesterday.

Posted by: S | Jun 25 2023 11:17 utc | 830

Either Prigozhin is suffering from PTS and suicidal, or this is a brilliant piece of maskirovka. If this was a real “pronunciamiento” it fizzled as everybody expected. However as Dima pointed out it could be a clever way of activating the northern front as Wagner is redeployed in Belarus for an assault on Kharkov or even Kiev. As for Putin, I don`t really see how this affects him. Erdogan suffered through an american inspired coup and now Putin has his version. PS: could Zaluzhny’s disappearance also be attributed to a coup gone wrong? Sirsky? I was in Spain when King Juan Carlos diffused the Feb23 coup in much the same way as Putin.(one night) He was beloved afterwards until the shot an elephant.

Posted by: Stierlitz | Jun 25 2023 11:19 utc | 831

And in case, Rubiconned, you still aren’t getting the point, either Wagner was being attacked by choppers, or Wagner was sneaking up on choppers, SEVEN of them, in THE MIDDLE OF RUSSIA, while LOUDLY PROCLAIMING WHERE HE WAS.
But muh pictures dude!

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 25 2023 11:22 utc | 832

…that this was a spat between Prigozhin and the MoD, nothing more.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 10:59 utc | 826
I agree – and marvel at 1000+ comments when that’s all need be said. (And thank you RSH.)

Posted by: waynorinorway | Jun 25 2023 11:24 utc | 833

@ Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 11:08 utc | 828
By ‘zero evidence’, you mean there are videos, yet you either didn’t watch them or are not satisfied with the assertion those craft were downed by Wagner or that they correspond the times and locations associated with them. Did you even click the links, or you just dismissed them because you don’t like the messengers or the narrative?
It is still evidence, circumstantial perhaps, but it is not ‘zero evidence’.
There are videos of a plane and helicopters going down, there are people saying it was on Russian territory, on a day when troops hostile to Russian MoD held the country hostage at the point of a gun.
Seriously, i have seen a video of a Russian Strela shooting off at a Ka-52. It is clear as fucking day.
If it wasn’t Wagner, then who the f was it then? And if Wagner didn’t shoot those other birds down, then who did? if these are old videos, then they can be debunked as such, yet not one has been proven as fake that way, yet. You don’t think there would be resources devoted to that on Russia’s side, instead of just ignoring or suppressing the evidence?
Zero evidence is what you are providing for the blanket dismissal of the videos and their established reporting even by pro Russian channels, who are seemingly less biased or deluded than you perhaps. Or maybe they are stupid and gullible like me, but if so, then go ahead and prove why, just as i have tried to prove something to you.
You can’t just dismiss them like that. At the very least, find a way to account for these losses that doesn’t implicate Wagner, or show me how these videos are fake or filmed on another day and/or location.

Posted by: Rubiconned | Jun 25 2023 11:39 utc | 834

Boris Rozhin (“Colonel Cassad”) on the future of PMCs:

1. In my opinion, PMCs are not going anywhere. They are (when properly prepared) a tool for pursuing public policy by other means, when they operate where the state cannot or does not want to act openly. This situation is a result of the development of the concept of hybrid wars, which take place in a kind of a gray zone, where the war is going on, but is not declared.
2. PMCs are a double-edged weapon. With proper training and provision, they are a deadly weapon that allows one to defeat the enemies of the state and achieve the goals set by the state. If misused or if the safety precautions are neglected, one can easily cut oneself and cause serious injury. Exactly what we all saw yesterday.
3. From the point of view of strengthening state control of PMCs (apart from the issues of supplying PMCs with equipment and ammunition), there has to be a serious regulatory and legal foundation for their activities, taking into account, among other things, recent events in Rostov. I have long advocated and continue to advocate adopting a law on PMCs, taking into account the objections that the FSB and RuMoD had previously raised regarding this issue.
4. Until such a law is adopted, the PMCs, whether private, state-corporate or departmental, will remain in a “legal gray zone.” Perhaps this issue will be raised at the fall session of the State Duma. In the meantime, the situation persists when the public-private PMC market has been formed in the country, but there is no corresponding legal framework, as a result of which many PMCs are masquerading as private security companies.
5. Regarding the future of Wagner and its brand, which, despite past merits, will now be associated, among other things, with the mutiny story. Taking into account the fact that part of the personnel is switching to a contract with the Ministry of Defense, it cannot be ruled out that the company will face some kind of restructuring or reorganization in the long term. Rebranding is also possible. Along the lines of the transformation of Blackwater PMC into Academi PMC in the early 2010s. The issue of trust will remain unresolved for a long time.

Posted by: S | Jun 25 2023 11:40 utc | 835

Posted by: Stierlitz | Jun 25 2023 11:19 utc | 831
You’re no young kid if you were around the faked coup the etat, but Juan Charlie the elephant hunter did not diffuse anything, he was in it up to his nose, but yes, a great maskirovka move since he looked so democratic an asshole that the rest of his life was a constant party, comissions, ladies, vehicles and anything but a sense of decency required for a head of state, until he met his nahual, killing big game has bad karma and the elephant avenged poor Mitrofan the bear, who met his end drunk with a bucket of vodka and honey killed by the degenerate.

Posted by: Paco | Jun 25 2023 11:44 utc | 836

“established reporting”. “pro Russian soutces”
Oh yes, they are al always so accurate. Especially within hours of an event!
And why were only choppers? What were they shooting at Wagner? Who gave the orders? Why were no tanks firing on Wagner, no infantry in Ambush. Wagner might be good at advancing half a kilometer a day, but since when did anybody think any Convoy could drive full sped North to Moscow, but suffer very few if any cadualties? If Russia wanted to stop them with force of Arms, they’d all be dead. You cant just drive hundreds of kilometers down a highway in the middle of Russia and come out unscathed unless Russia does not want you scathed.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 25 2023 11:46 utc | 837

@Don Firineach | Jun 25 2023 0:56 utc | 689
The only version better than this one is Ray Charles’s….not bad for a 15 year-old, eh?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwqsmNR_Q1M

Posted by: zeke2u | Jun 25 2023 11:48 utc | 838

If you read Larry Johnson this morning do yourself a favor and spend the four minutes it takes to listen to his cite of Peggy Lee at the end. Miss Lee knows more about how it all works than any on this page.
If in Chicago go see Petra Van Nuis and request the song.

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 25 2023 11:59 utc | 839

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 25 2023 2:18 utc | 745
What could the Russians do to resist an attack along M4? Bomb M4 and the armor on it? Really? So apparently obvious. Bad play, like a bubble screen to the short side.
================================
real scorpion here: I have no idea what the above means, but in any case I didn’t post it. (Much too brief and simple for me!!)

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 25 2023 12:05 utc | 840

Posted by: Rubiconned | Jun 25 2023 11:39 utc | 834
“There are videos of a plane and helicopters going down, there are people saying it was on Russian territory”
Prove they were on Russian territory. Proof they were shot down by Wagner. Prove those videos aren’t of Russian – or even Ukrainian – helicopters.
You can’t do it. Neither can anyone else in those videos.
“Seriously, i have seen a video of a Russian Strela shooting off at a Ka-52. It is clear as fucking day.”
Provide that exact link. Then read this:
Ukrainian Armed Forces show how “Strela-10” anti-aircraft missile system destroys Russian drones
https://sundries.com.ua/en/ukrainian-armed-forces-show-how-strela-10-anti-aircraft-missile-system-destroys-russian-drones/
The Ukrainians HAVE fucking Strelas!
“And if Wagner didn’t shoot those other birds down, then who did? if these are old videos, then they can be debunked as such, yet not one has been proven as fake that way, yet.”
Has anyone tried? Has anyone verified by date/time stamps, location OSINT, or anything else?
I don’t have to prove faked. You have to prove verified.
If you can show me a legitimate Russian news Web site that has reported these things and has provided visual evidence of any of it, I’ll consider it. If you can’t, then it’s bullshit.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 12:14 utc | 841

I just did a Google search. Absolutely everything on several pages is strictly from 1) Youtube channels of unknown providence, 2) blogs of unknown providence, 3) Western sources such as one from Turkey which pointed out that the helicopter shootdown claim HAS NOT BEEN VERIFIED.
I watched a couple random Youtube videos which show firefighters putting out a fire on what appears to be wreckage, another shot shows some helicopter somewhere unidentified as to make/model or location, the usual crappy camera video.
This is not fucking evidence, morons.
Provide a legitimate Russian news Web site with verified reports of these events, preferably with visual evidence which they have verified, or it’s bullshit.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 12:19 utc | 842

Barflies,
Rubiconns Night Shift ends in a bit. Maybe the day shift will have more skill.

Posted by: Exile | Jun 25 2023 12:22 utc | 843

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 2:53 utc | 751
“If it was real attempted coup, there is no way Russia would let prigozhin walk away, and give guarantees of safe passage.”
You don’t know that. The fact is it wasn’t a “real attempted coup” – it was another PR stunt by Prighozhin, proven by the fact that he had next to no assets to conduct it with. You don’t “march on Moscow” with a couple hundred guys, one tank and 3 armored cars.
===========================
I totally agree with that last sentence. And Putin would agree too. Not to mention there are no doubt plenty of GRU types inside Wagner so if ever there WAS a serious coup it would be nipped in the bud easily. I find it hard to believe, therefore, that the inner Kremlin circle believed this was a coup.
And yet Putin made a big deal of it addressing the nation, talking of treason etc. (Although one person somewhere pointed out that at first his address was only to foreign audiences via internet, not Russian TV, but later reports said it was on Russian TV.) And then a few hours later Prigo is off to Belorus, probably to get a cushy senior military consultant position.
So although I think you are right that things are more simple than many theorists want to believe, it’s still a very strange business with a strange outcome. If Putin believed it was a coup, that’s weird. If he didn’t, then his speech is weird.
Perhaps there are some serious traitors in the mix somewhere and this event is foreshadowing some future crack-downs. Or something. There is more to this than meets the eye but that doesn’t make it earth-changing either.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 25 2023 12:28 utc | 844

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 12:14 utc | 841
What were two transport helicopters doing near the Wagner column? The Mi-8/17 is only armed in its combat assault role, it is not a gunship and has never, IIRC, been used in that role by the Russians in the SMO. The very fact that the Ukrainians do is testament to the dire situation they find themselves in, so why send two vulnerable machines when Ka-52’s supposedly were available. The deployment of these dedicated attack platforms makes sense, but their supposed attack profile, putting them in the range of AD missiles, does not, given copious evidence of their use in blunting the Ukrainian offensive using long-range missiles. Finally, I have yet to see any evidence of aerial attack, apart from a bus exploding with a suspicious lack of an outside agent initiating the destructive sequence (no impact is visible, no object discernible and the explosion is internal).

Posted by: Milites | Jun 25 2023 12:40 utc | 845

@ watcher | Jun 25 2023 6:45 utc | 792
Not sure about your theory, although it’s intriguing and plausible.
But what I wanted to do by posting now is thank you for a series of insightful and humane comments, which are among the best on this thread.

Posted by: malenkov | Jun 25 2023 12:43 utc | 846

if it was an internal political dispute, why did Prigozhin spout NATO talking points? when Israel attacked and tried to kill everybody on the USS Liberty, the US pretended it hadn’t happened. LBJ said it was because he didn’t want to get in a war with an ally while the US was at war. nobody got punished for the Businessman’s Plot either. I’m waiting for evidence. the stories don’t add up on several levels.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 25 2023 12:44 utc | 847

Was shooting down an Il-22, a few helicopters and murdering Russian air force pilots part of this cunning plan? Humiliating the Russian Gov’t on the world stage and putting millions of people in a state of panic? Commandeering road blocks, ripping up highways, redeploying tens of thousands of troops… What about the chance of a miscalculation, since Russian doctrine provides the use of nukes if the State is considered to be under threat?
Posted by: Rubiconned | Jun 25 2023 9:45 utc | 819
That is the position of most of the contemptible plebs on this thread. That the whole thing is theatre, and no one died, but if they did die, that’s ok too because 4D chess.

Posted by: Jake the Snake | Jun 25 2023 12:48 utc | 848

Posted by: S | Jun 25 2023 11:17 utc | 830
If this report is true, there were 12 tanks in the raiding force, meaning, it was more powerful than people were assuming yesterday.
======================
Yes, and well explains why the CTO status declared there.

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 25 2023 12:49 utc | 849

Posted by: Paco | Jun 25 2023 11:44 utc | 836
Posted by: Paco | Jun 25 2023 11:44 utc | 836
The “danger” factor is about the same for these “coups.” Make no mistake about it there was a real coup on the night of February 23 and if the Brunete had moved, a military junta would have ruled Spain – with or without Juan Carlos. It is interesting that there are rumors never really explained that a second coup was planned by Jaime Milans del Bosch Former cadet in the Toledo Alcazar during the Civil War from his jail cell! There is always fog around these things but Juan Carlos just went back to doing what Spanish kings usually do: hunt, girls, and money.
As for Erdogan there was indeed a coup to topple him and his ride on the Tiger is not over yet.

Posted by: Stierlitz | Jun 25 2023 12:54 utc | 850

watcher | Jun 25 2023 7:37 utc | 794
*** Armed populists are always a danger ***
Armed anti-populists are far more of a danger …. if you doubt that, just consider the psychopathic perverts and megalomanic kleptocrats ruling Britain and other NATO countries including the USA.

Posted by: Cynic | Jun 25 2023 13:20 utc | 851

Just to add, Karlof I read your links of course, as always. Never stop posting, all appreciate it.
And yes, I hate to say I told you so but I told you so. Very effective theater, in essence cosmic level trolling of NATO and how did Rove put it? ‘Making their own realities’?
The best part about deceiving your opponent successfully is you undermine their strategic planning once they realize you’re in their head. Now you have introduced doubts in the case of NATO this factor might not be beneficial as they might stop with their related, poorly thought out direct advances into prepared defensive lines without air support.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 25 2023 13:26 utc | 852

Coherence in the morning isn’t a strong suit. Anyway you hopefully take my point.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 25 2023 13:30 utc | 853

So far the only AA system Wagner was reported to have with them on their protest march was a Strela-10. The Strela is not a BUK system. It is short range. Il-20 command/intelligence aircraft usually loiter at altitudes well outside the range of AA systems like Strela-10.
How could the Wagnerians shoot down an Il-20?
Why would the Russian MoD have a relatively rare Il-20 involved in tracking some guys driving on the highway in the first place? What would be the point? What role does it serve?
Presumably 3 Mi-8MTPR were also shot down by the same Strela-10 system. What were these aircraft doing in the area? What was their intended role? The Wagnerians had no AA systems that could be suppressed by these aircraft (Strela-10 uses optical targeting/tracking, not radar).
Why would these particular assets be anywhere near the Wagner protest? Because the Russian MoD is retarded? “Hey, let’s send our some of our most expensive aircraft that we have in the smallest numbers to uselessly fly around some place where they cannot do anything anyway.”
Sorry, I don’t buy the narrative the Russian MoD are that stupid, and I don’t buy the narrative that 20 pilots were killed. I’m more inclined to believe Prigozhin’s word that not a drop of blood was spilled. Unless we can get some authoritative verification on the pilot fatalities, I’m calling it bullshit.

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 25 2023 13:31 utc | 854

848. The whole thing was theater, and as I noted there are no casulaties, nothing has been destroyed. You were all played like a fiddle by an effective disinformation campaign, one with several objectives all of which seem to have been met, with the possible exception of baiting the UAF into a widescale suicide rush. I note with amusement the obvious disappointment of the pro Western trolls, and the understandable cognitive dissonance of those who can tell this was all a little too neat and tidy to be real, but of course it’s like boxing with smoke. Nothing tangible to hold to.
In other words what psyops should be.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 25 2023 13:36 utc | 855

first time poster, long time reader here.
It would definitely appear that Russia indeed faced a few losses (aircraft, helicopters) in this mutiny, as even Peskov himself says the following:
“Peskov stated that thanks to the agreement the situation had been resolved without further losses, with members of the Wagner PMC able to return back to their field camps.”
with emphasis on “further“… had there been no losses whatsoever, he would have certainly used other wording…
https://en.sputniknews.africa/20230624/events-around-wagner-pmc-will-not-affect-russias-op-in-ukraine-kremlin-1060141081.html

Posted by: jure | Jun 25 2023 13:54 utc | 856

In response to Milites@845,
The destruction of transport helicopters, if accurate, would suggest that the cargo was the intended target. The Wagners supposedly took control of the military headquarters in Rostov without interfering with its operational schedule, allowing combat operations against Ukraine to continue. That they would be caught blind-firing at Russian air assets due to, presumably, lack of professionalism or in an attempt to degrade Russian combat capability, particularly after having successfully negotiated passage through numerous military checkpoints, doesn’t stick. Or, for that matter, in self defense — there was clearly no general decision taken to open fire on Wagner fighters at any point during all of this, nor do we have even a suggestion that Wagner troops lost any men or equipment.
Those who believe that the destruction of military equipment necessarily indicates that the Wagner insurrection is as it appears on the surface, fail to consider who would have been manning this destroyed equipment and on whose side they would have been on. If, for example, this Wagner stunt couldn’t be resolved via negotiations and succeeded to draw out armed support from certain regular Russian formations, we would be presented with extensive images of destroyed Russian equipment with no real way of knowing whether it belonged to loyalists or insurrectionists.
Considering that part of the Wagner force stayed behind in Rostov, took control of military HQ and the military airfield and mined all approaches into the city, it wouldn’t be too far fetched to suggest that they were planning to hold Rostov for some time and plausible that they might be expecting reinforcements. If those reinforcements were to be dealt with in transit by Russian loyalists, or even by Wagner troops themselves, the correct interpretation of events wouldn’t be at all apparent from images or witness testimony. At any rate, any number of similar explanations would make more sense than Wagner forces destroying Russian air-assets preemptively, while simultaneously keeping a truce with all ground-assets, or surviving several air-assaults completely unscathed before retaliating.
The simplest explanation would, of course, be that it’s straight up misinformation.

Posted by: Skiffer | Jun 25 2023 14:00 utc | 857

to DunGroanin | Jun 25 2023 8:08 utc | 801 …
Though otherwise correct about UKIP, you omitted to mention the most revealing and condemning detail of their true (ie. fake and totally Political Establishment false-flag) nature.
Largely prior to what you cite, and supposedly to purge any NF sympathisers, the then UKIP leader Sked handed its detailed membership list over to an organisation headed by Gerry Gable, a fervent zionist. That organisation would indicate who to purge.
You might say — “well, so what”? … and approve of gettting rid of alleged ‘extremists’.
BUT … Gable’s organisation (which, incidentally, was elevated by the Blair regime into a new and very little-reported political-police department within the Home Office) had a contract with the EU itself to attack, smear and destroy *all* political opponents of …. the EU.
The very same EU that UKIP claimed to oppose.
Then, later on when it came to the “brexit” referendum and subsequent Boris regime, what did Farage and his fellow UKIP types do?
Set up another false-flag organisation that helped to deliver a thoroughly rotten variant of “brexit” which most people opposed to Brussels dictatorship did *not* want …. stood down candidates very close to a general election (too close for any alternative outfit to even try to stand) and officially switched to actively promoting the fanatically pro US-empire, asset-stripping and utterly corrupt Tory party.
In other words, top politicians of what was allegedly a “United Kingdom Independence Party” turned out to really be judas-goat pimps for all the negatives of Brussels domination combined with all the negatives of direct US / NATO ideological control and economic cultism.
UKIP had decent enough people at ground level — at least, no worse than those of any other Establishment party. But at the top it always was a fake … controlled “opposition” to pre-empt the development of any genuine opposition to the transnational establishment (ie. Bilderberg and NATO) line.
Perhaps the UKIP members and supporters should have paid more attention to the total subversion of James Goldsmith’s “Referendum Party”, thanks to his astonishingly bad selection of people to run it.

Posted by: Cynic | Jun 25 2023 14:02 utc | 858

DunGroanin | Jun 25 2023 8:08 utc | 801
Brilliant as usual.
Jake the Snake | Jun 25 2023 12:48 utc, who used this “…the contemptible plebs on this thread.” as part of a comment.
A sentiment I recognised from a previous poster using a different moniker. Is that sock-puppetry? I have only two words for you…

Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jun 25 2023 14:03 utc | 859

@DunGroanin
Which cabals do fund and direct the AFD?

Posted by: Apollyon | Jun 25 2023 14:14 utc | 860

Reliable people like Russian military blogger Kirill Fyodorov are remembering the pilot and the navigator of the downed Ka-52, raising money for navigator’s family (post 1, post 2), yet MoA retards keep insisting that “nothing has been downed.”
I’m seriously considered leaving this website for good. The stupidity and arrogance displayed here are just incredible. I used to laugh at it, now I find it disgusting.

Posted by: S | Jun 25 2023 14:29 utc | 861

Wagner reportedly has the Pantsir S1 system in its arsenal…
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=wagner+pmc+pantsir+s1&t=ffab&ia=web

Posted by: jure | Jun 25 2023 14:31 utc | 862

I put this in the MoA thread since this topic is also there, but I think this is a great take:
And an intelligent military maskirovka take from Awful Avalance, back in the real world after a day spent with his Jewish Spartans ably led by Elensky:
https://awfulavalanche.wordpress.com/

Berdiev went on to say, that under the current circumstances, a normal person wouldn’t even think about mutiny, the thought should never even enter his head: “During the time of the Special Operation, to shoot your own people in the back – that’s the worst thing that could ever happen. Prigozhin has already earned himself a criminal sentence from 12-20 years. I would even support hanging such a person who, in such difficult times, is going against his own people, against his own army!”
The Mufti was even further aggravated by the thought, how much Russia’s enemies are enjoying this spectacle. “They laugh at us! They are having too much fun.”
Then, towards the end of the day, we learned that the mutineers had standed down and “returned to base”. Prigozhin will retire to Belorussia to live off his generous pension, while the rest of the Wagners will join the Russian army.
Meanwhile, under the full view of American satellites, X number of Wagner battalions have reployed in columns from DPR/LPR to somewhere in the Kharkov neighborhood. While Y number of Chechen battalions have deployed to the staging area of Rostov-on-Don, for further deployment to the Donbass. All of this, I repeat, under the full view of American satellites who thought that they were watching something else.

That also fits an Occam’s Razor profile….

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 25 2023 14:50 utc | 863

Reliable people like Russian military blogger Kirill Fyodorov are remembering the pilot and the navigator of the downed Ka-52, raising money for navigator’s family (post 1, post 2), yet MoA retards keep insisting that “nothing has been downed.”
I’m seriously considered leaving this website for good. The stupidity and arrogance displayed here are just incredible. I used to laugh at it, now I find it disgusting.
Posted by: S | Jun 25 2023 14:29 utc | 861
B has to step in to clean up. The comments section has become Q-anon and Vox Day sewage.

Posted by: Jake the Snake | Jun 25 2023 15:02 utc | 864

RSH is very knowledgeable, far beyond me, and it seems lik I was wrong to follow Ritters on the CIA meme, but it seems early to shut down debate.
I can’t understand why Putin would make a speech stating Treason in the middle of an international crisis, a very consequential word, if this was nothing. That would make him look like a very sloppy statesman which is definitely not his style.

Posted by: Turk 152 | Jun 25 2023 15:05 utc | 865

S | Jun 25 2023 14:29 utc | 861,
I’m sure we will all miss you, although our retardation might manifest as dementia. However, while I recall, the jury is still out on the actual events on the ground in Russia during Friday and Saturday; but thank you for your excessive efforts during the incident. Reading or not reading this site’s comments is a personal choice and no matter how important you think your opinions are less people than you think care. ;o)

Posted by: Lantern Dude | Jun 25 2023 15:10 utc | 866

Why isn’t it plausible that Priggy tried something much bigger, utterly failed, and now Putin just decided it was better to do damage control instead of carrying out a spectacle that would air his dirty laundry to the entire world?

Posted by: Turk 152 | Jun 25 2023 15:15 utc | 867

Newest Simplicius article throws in the possibility that Prigozhin was actually controlled by Russian oligarchs, who could have plotted to overthrow Putin. Shoigu and Gerasimov could have actually been covers to get some Wagner troops on board. Would the oligarchs be nationalistic, or pro-west liberals?
Prigozhin has also made lies and absolutely self-contradicting claims over past weeks and months. He said on one occasion, during end stages of Bakhmut that SMO should be ended. Then later on he made the case that he intends to “strengthen the SMO”.
Prigozhin lied to the Wagner troops on where they were headed, supposedly to Belgorod, and were surprised to end up in Voronezh and Rostov. This was for the purpose that the true intent of this operation was unknown to anyone but Prigozhin and a small amount of top Wagner figures. The Shoigu/Gerasimov could have been cover stories, to actually overthrow Putin.
Well, who knows. It’s possible. I bet despite public redemption, the consequences for Prigozhin isn’t over for himself just yet if it was an actual oligarch plot. Who knows.

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 25 2023 15:33 utc | 868

MOA needs to start looking for a Mcjob as he might not be getting payment when the regime finally goes down.

Posted by: Dick Inass | Jun 25 2023 16:48 utc | 869

Haha let’s see when Putin is finally gone, maybe this blog will mysteriously disappear. No more money for MOA…

Posted by: Dick Inass | Jun 25 2023 16:54 utc | 870

Doesn’t anyone here follow serious Russian political TG channels? This isn’t over and it’s not minor. The idea that it was all maskirovka psyop is far fetched because it would be exceedingly dangerous. To inform everyone who would need to know it wasn’t real would mean the secret would leak. To run it without everyone knowing included the massive risk that regular army units might defect to Wagner.
Putin managed to defuse the emergency deftly. I have no trouble believing that the mutiny was known about and the plan from there was to isolate it and remove Prigozhin delicately. Using facets of it for the purpose of deception is totally possible. But all one big charade, no.
We are unlikely to see more than suggestive shadows of the real impacts of the event going forward. But the divisions aren’t gone and those on the “side” of Prigozhin aren’t either. Putin isn’t in danger but state stability still is. That’s why he’s being careful and delicate. It’s why Prigozhin is headed off to Uncle Sasha for the time being and not arrested or shot. The whole thing will have flushed a lot of people out, but that will be a delicate situation to handle too. Likely Putin succeeds. His entire political career is a series of delicate situations. He’s adept at them like few others.

Posted by: Lex | Jun 25 2023 16:55 utc | 871

Neocons like dickinass were all orgasmic Friday, then woke up Saturday with a sore bottom and a dollar stuffed in their pants pocket.

Posted by: nook | Jun 25 2023 17:09 utc | 872

It is the beginning of the end for Putin! MOA will need a new job 😀

Posted by: Dick Inass | Jun 25 2023 17:09 utc | 873

We can put this bizarre episode in the already over stuffed “lessons not learned” folder of the Western elites. Whether it was real or fake, one thing is clear. There is not going to be a colour revolution in Russia. The collective west needs to get back to reality and come up with a plan C or D or E…what ever the freak they are on now.

Posted by: nook | Jun 25 2023 17:19 utc | 874

End of Putin will be end of salary, and end of MOA

Posted by: Dick Inass | Jun 25 2023 18:38 utc | 875

@ Dick Inass | Jun 25 2023 18:38 utc | 875
Welcome to this blog Dick Inass, sorry you’re not sitting comfortably.

Posted by: Leuk | Jun 25 2023 19:06 utc | 876

…that this was a spat between Prigozhin and the MoD, nothing more.
Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 25 2023 10:59 utc | 826
I agree – and marvel at 1000+ comments when that’s all need be said. (And thank you RSH.)
Posted by: waynorinorway | Jun 25 2023 11:24 utc | 833
Dima just reported that Shoigu and Gerasimov are being replaced…

Posted by: Marvin | Jun 25 2023 20:57 utc | 877

Tichy is a Czech name. Wonder which person the nickname refers to. The Czechs always gave in to Germans and lately replaced a slightly rebellious president with a NATO dog.
Posted by: RB | Jun 25 2023 9:16 utc | 814
Ijon Tichy the protagonist of several novels by Polish science fiction writer Stanislaw Lem of which Fiasco is my favorite.

Posted by: Tichy | Jun 25 2023 21:48 utc | 878

Dima just reported that Shoigu and Gerasimov are being replaced…
Posted by: Marvin | Jun 25 2023 20:57 utc | 877
Yes, Prigozhin is surely getting the “punishment he deserves.”

Posted by: Tichy | Jun 25 2023 21:50 utc | 879

Wow, in less than 12 hours, a funeral fund set up for one of the dead pilots. That family is fast! I had no idea the Russian MoD was so quick to notify family!
Might want to double check it’s legit, or you might be giving your money to a snickering Ukrainian or Nigerian prince.

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 26 2023 1:49 utc | 880

Posted by: Marvin | Jun 25 2023 20:57 utc | 877
Dima just reported that Shoigu and Gerasimov are being replaced…
Dima speculated that Shoigu and Gerasimov might be replaced.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 26 2023 2:52 utc | 881

Posted by: nook | Jun 25 2023 17:19 utc | 874
the next plans might be even more harebrained. they still have their eye on that nuclear plant.

Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 26 2023 3:22 utc | 882

@UWDude #880:

Wow, in less than 12 hours, a funeral fund set up for one of the dead pilots. That family is fast! I had no idea the Russian MoD was so quick to notify family!

I see. You are so stupid that you can’t even use a machine translation service and read the post. It was Kirill Fyodorov who posted his account number announcing that he is raising money to help the navigator’s family.
Here’s a video and a photo with aircraft number of IL-22PP shot down by Wagner’s air defense.
Not that these would convince a retarded clown such as yourself.

Posted by: S | Jun 26 2023 8:25 utc | 883

Kudos for this calm and measured assessment, which proved to be on the money. Many other analysts and alt-media lost the run of themselves.

Posted by: Donal | Jun 26 2023 8:40 utc | 884