“Let’s Try This Again!”

June 10, 2023

Yesterday I posted a picture of a Leopard 2A6 tank, 4 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles, and a Soviet era mine clearing vehicle all caught up next to each other in a minefield. There is now also better video of that scene as well as others.

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For unknown reasons the Ukrainian command later decided to add five more Bradleys to the scrap exposition:

Military Advisor @miladvisor – 18:06 UTC · Jun 9, 2023

⚡️👇9x 🇺🇸M2 Bradley,🇩🇪Leopard 2A6, armoured recovery vehicle lost by Ukrainian forces.
video

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It is the same Leopard tank in the same position. I believe that the ‘armoured recovery vehicle’ @miladvisor mentions is an incorrect identification of the mine clearing vehicle that can also be seen in the previous picture.

All of those vehicles seem to have some mobility damage, i.e. they lost a track or two due to mine explosions. One of the added Bradleys seems to be on fire. Then its neighboring Bradley decides to also burn and explodes.

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Someone had sent half a company into a minefield where it was damaged and stopped. He then sent the second half of the company to the same place where it met the same fate.

“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” (No, that is not an Einstein quote.)

Here is a first person view video from the Ukrainian side of what, I believe, is another group of four Bradleys in a minefield. Finally someone throws smoke grenades so some of the soldiers involved can be evacuated.

Simplicitus tries to put some rationality cover over the Ukrainian decision to attack the strongest defense position of the Russian forces:

This is all to say that Ukraine has almost no time left to make a big splash. They have no option apart from gaining one final big flashy triumph they can hail as a victory to be sold to their souring Western audience, whose support is slowly drying up, and who’s getting ready to throw in the towel.

And the only way for Ukraine to get such a huge and relatively ‘fast’ triumph is by severing the Crimean landbridge. It’s the only objective in the entire conflict where Ukraine can deal one big deathblow to Russia’s jugular in a very proportionately small amount of moves. No other possible combination of captures or assaults in Donbass can have such an effect.

I find that hard to accept. One attacks where one has the highest chance of success, not where some foreign political calender tells one to go. How that is then (over-)sold to the ‘western’ public is a completely different question.

Throughout the last night the 47th brigade of the Ukrainian armed forces tried to attack the Russian lines.The 47th is supposed to be elite, as it was trained and armed by NATO countries.

Two columns of the brigade were hit and stopped before they could reach the line of contact. What was then left to attack failed to break through.

Posted by on June 10, 2023 at 13:42 UTC | Permalink

Comments

Chris Cosmos@87
You are probably right. I would add, however, that the idea that life in the EU, or life offered by the EU/US, is superior, full of hope and prospects of fulfilment is not one that will long survive the economic conditions which are already descending into a depression of insecurity, impotence, bad housing and hunger.
In Ukraine things are already bad, and could not be made worse by anything Russia does. In this rest of the EU, as in the UK, the Good Times are over and war offers no way out.
Russia’s real problem is that, apart from the vague ‘traditionalism’ it appears to offer, it, like the EU/US is riven by class struggle in which the wealthy oligarchy, which lives by exploiting the great majority of the people, controls the state.
Not only must this weaken the resolve of the masses to defend the country-and handicap that defence by privileging the corrupt oligarchs and leaving the resources of the people untapped, it also offers nothing to excite the victims of EU rule, nothing in the way of a clearly defined alternative to a failing discredited system.

Posted by: bevin | Jun 10 2023 20:55 utc | 201

Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 10 2023 15:26 utc | 53
This seems like one of the only off-ramps that the RotW could present to FUKUSNATO at this juncture. Another might be India, Pakistan, Brazil, the Saudis and Gulf Monarkies, along with China making a strong statement that continued support of the war endangers numerous ongoing projects and cooperation in military and non-military realms. But I think your suggestion is the preferable option. China, at some point in the near future, should probably say “Enough is enough. We will not stand by any longer and watch the West continue to pour arms and money into this conflagration risking European and even Global instability.”
Only wrinkle I can think of is the pessimistic angle that China is not-so-secretly hoping Russia is severely weakened so that they can exert more influence on their own western Eurasian borders. But I haven’t seen that fleshed out in a believable manner or backed up with exactly what China would gain vs. lose if the RF is balkanized and they are faced with FUKUSNATO meddling in those places where previously Russia kept order. Does anyone know what China could possibly gain and if so, why the risk is worth the possible rewards?

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 10 2023 20:56 utc | 202

Looks like the Russians found a complete Leopard
https://twitter.com/Sprinter99880/status/1667533862145085440

Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 20:56 utc | 203

@ Sushi | Jun 10 2023 18:16 utc | 128 and other of your posts…
thanks, but i do agree with @ 185 bevin – on the key point of all this canuck dementia… it has to do with going after that big bad chinese boogieman, lol.. an outbreak of sinophobia as bevin says.. bevin is exactly right..

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 20:56 utc | 204

I thought Strelkov’s (Girkin’s) TG post earlier today displayed a reasonable take on the situation. Basically, so far so good (from a Russian standpoint), but let’s wait and see how things develop. The Ukrainians still have a lot of forces they can commit.
The Strelkov post (blame him for the lack of paragraph breaks):

Fighting continues on the Zaporozhye front. The “fog of war”, which tightly tightened the place of a major battle, does not allow you to follow its course in detail. So far, it is only clear that my prediction that the Armed Forces of Ukraine will not stop the offensive in the Melitopol direction is justified. The enemy continues to attack fiercely and bring fresh reserves into battle. It is also clear that he again failed to break through the front last night, and there is no any serious progress. Meanwhile, losses are growing, and reserves are being spent. I believe that such persistence will last the enemy for another 4-5 days. If by that time the resistance of our troops does not weaken and the enemy does not feel the weakening of our defense (due to lack of ammunition, for example) – the enemy’s attacks will decline and / or he will transfer the direction of the strike to some other sector of the front. In this regard, the enemy’s stubbornness looks somewhat strange precisely in the sector where he met the toughest resistance without the slightest success and cannot yet advance “from the word at all.” – After all, west of Ugledar – on the so-called. Vremevsky ledge – tactical successes (by now completely liquidated) were on the very first day and it would be logical to attack with the main forces and develop success precisely there (now it’s too late, of course). On the face of a clear mistake of the command of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and the lack of flexibility in the leadership of the offensive. On the other hand, the transfer of large masses of troops and equipment near the front is fraught with large losses on marches. In any case, the battle has just begun, the enemy is driving very large reserves from the deep rear to the front (according to data from open sources – up to 300-400 tanks and no less than other AFVs).

Posted by: Mike314159 | Jun 10 2023 20:57 utc | 205

Given that the counteroffensive is pretty much done.
Any guessing on who is going to demand direct NATO intervention.
What media ex senior politician etc will write the opinion piece that all the other hacks will row in behind?
“We can’t wait any longer, stand idly by etc.
Never mind that the public don’t want it happ.

Posted by: jpc | Jun 10 2023 20:57 utc | 206

There can’t be any military analysts in the UK, US , NATO as they never before fought a superior force.

Posted by: ostro | Jun 10 2023 20:58 utc | 207

@ Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 20:56 utc | 204
relevant quote in the link you shared…
“Captured Leopard 2 tank with tungsten sabot being pulled out.
White square mark on side of turret with narrow black cross is for US military satellite ID, for battle management. This hasn’t been seen before. The ‘offensive’ must have been very important to the Americans.”

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 20:59 utc | 208

Posted by: bevin | Jun 10 2023 20:55 utc | 202
Not too long ago, here on these pages, I think probably just prior to the SMO, I recall several regulars making the claims that, in fact, there is no oligarchy left in Russia, or that Putin and the Russian government had at least brought them to heel and relegated them to smaller roles with no real influence over the RF’s government. I can’t remember who it was, though. But for a while there seemed to be a debate at MoA as to the real nature of the Russian oligarchy and it often verged into discussions of how “Putin” (since that’s how so many westerners refer to the Russian gov’t as a whole) was clawing back parts of the natural commons from the greedy businessmen and somehow implementing a more tenable and equitable class relationship in the RF. However, I also cannot recall any specific evidence presented to back those assertions.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 10 2023 21:03 utc | 209

Russian units destroyed two tanks of the Armed Forces of Ukraine
https://iz.ru/1526747/2023-06-10/rossiiskie-podrazdeleniia-unichtozhili-dva-tanka-vsu

Posted by: ostro | Jun 10 2023 21:04 utc | 210

Apologies to all –
I was looking at the wrong set of numbers when stating above (at 58) that the polls had not changed since the Bundestag elections of September 26th, 2021. The right numbers are as follows:
CDU (opposition) 27% [+2.9%]
SPD (Scholz) 20% [-5.7%]
AfD (Russian friendly) 18% [+7.7%]
Grüne (warmongers) 15% [+0.2%]
FDP (gov. coalition) 7% [-4.5%]
Die Linke (leftist) 5% [+0.1%]
where the gain or loss since elections is given in square brackets. Now that looks better than the previous version, since at least Scholz has considerable losses, and the AfD has gained a lot. The Greens, to date, have suffered no losses for their “Putin is evil” approach, and it is still illegal in Germany, and has led to fines, to argue and justify the SMO in public. This kind of laws are hard to ever get rid of, just about as hard as the ban on RT – so I’m afraid we’ll stay locked into our anti-Moscow corner, while the RoW thrives and enjoys the new multipolar order.

Posted by: grunzt | Jun 10 2023 21:04 utc | 211

I can’t wait for these NATO exercises to start – and absolutely nothing happens. There is zero chance that these exercises will have anything to do with Ukraine or Russia except as practice for the future NATO-Russia war which NATO will lose – badly.
There’s only one upcoming “exercise” which has potential for something to happen. That’s the one between the US and Ukraine involving underwater stuff in the Black Sea. That is like announcing some sort of attack on the Russian Black Sea Fleet. In other words, another Ukrainian/neocon PR stunt.
Which of course all the lames here will start touting as some “major disaster for Russia.”

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 10 2023 21:04 utc | 212

Posted by: Scorpion | Jun 10 2023 20:41 utc | 191
Earlier today I just so happened to be catching up on the reportage done by Consortium News and John Helmer in the time period that includes 2013-2016, but also through to 2022, regarding the west’s (meaning the capitalist oligarchs that pull the puppet strings of gov’t) designs on the riches of Ukraine and her people. Here’s a compilation just posted in the past 24 hours which is as comprehensive a study on the people, machinations and power plays toward exactly those aims as may be available anywhere on the Internets.
https://consortiumnews.com/2023/06/09/where-do-you-get-your-ukraine-news/
This one in particular (and the many embedded hyperlinks it contains) speaks to exactly what the Sputnik article is getting at.
https://consortiumnews.com/2019/09/26/what-isnt-mentioned-about-the-trump-ukraine-scandal-the-routine-corruption-of-us-foreign-policy/

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 10 2023 21:09 utc | 213

circumspect @ 48
It sounds like some NATO nations are planning to send some elements directly into battle in the near future. That move sounds like Ukraine is nearing exhastion and needs that input of men and material badly.
A move like that will only end in the same result. If NATO wants this territory it would have to sweep the skys of all Russian aviation, take out all the Russian air defenses, and wipe out their manufacturing base as well as their logistic hubs in similar fashion to the World War ll conflict. Even then it is going to be a tough slog for them.
In that attempt who is to say another nation like China backs Russia to the hilt by sending its forces into the struggle in large numbers? The Anglo American NATO deal cultists will end this when they have enough bodies piled up to make their god happy. This is an excersice in ancient human sacrifice to the god they worship.
They are all completely mad and serving a spiritual power we seen not and a group of peole we do not recognize that are in human form. They must have the resources of this region for their future plans. They need a new group of serfs to serve on their new colonies they plan to open up in Russia. Without it their 500 year reign of terror on the planet is in jeopardy.
RESPONSE: Agree with your most of your analysis. Just don’t see the Anglo Americas standing at the end of the current conflict. Their power of hegemony over the world will be reduced to dust.

Posted by: young | Jun 10 2023 21:10 utc | 214

Posted by: Neofeudalfuture | Jun 10 2023 20:42 utc | 193
Theres been a lot of mystery airstrikes in syria and Kurdistan. I’m guessing it was Israeli f35s
Agreed. there have been missile strikes. But no direct engagement by F35 on ground (bombing) or air targets. Except the drone.
Russia can easily counter Stealth. Russia has the Nebo-M. it is a massive mobil rader system. It can easily see stealth craft and has a range of 1000K. It also has the Podlet -E for low altitude detection.
As soon as F35 or F22 show up over the Ukraine skies they will be targets.
Russia invented stealth technology back in the 1960s.They did not pursue it because stealth was expensive, Maint intensive. and hard to mass produce .
It did not fit into ther Battle plan of cheap, reliable, easy to mass produce equipment. When the US MIC saw that Stealth was expensive, Maint intensive. and hard to mass produce. They rubbed their hands together with glee and said “That’s our Baby:
Russia knows all about stealth. Assuredly they have very effective countermeasures.

Posted by: Golddigger | Jun 10 2023 21:11 utc | 215

https://antilogicalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/hiroshima.pdf
For those talking casually about a nuclear war, please read this.
It must never happen.

Posted by: Dosamuno | Jun 10 2023 21:12 utc | 216

‘Ein Befehl ist ein Befehl,’ Orders are orders is applicable to the Ukies ossified command structure as as the Russian military. It explains repeating the same mistake over again.
Remarkably, the current Russian military erected a well-organized, highly disciplied steel wall leaving what is ossified very far behind them. Doing Rodina proud.
NATO exercises are planned long in advance, are executed by agreed upon scenarios, giving everyone a chance for promotions, medals, etc. Preparing for war is good, dying or getting mutilated not so. Occam’s Razor says that they all come together for the party (Air Defender 23) and then leave.
Back to the main topic, Ukies have enough reserves left for extended mayhem? Aftermath of Khakova?

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jun 10 2023 21:15 utc | 217

unimperator | Jun 10 2023 19:34 utc | 158Earlier
RU doesn’t apparently have those kind of satellites, which will boost capability to locate stuff much more efficiently.
That simply is not true and nor Scott R. or Andrei M. were correct.

russian space assets rise summary:
The Russian optoelectric satellite, Persona, was launched in July 2008 atop a Soyuz 2-1B rocket, becoming the first Russian optical reconnaissance spacecraft to be deployed to a sun-synchronous orbit. In May 2012, Russia’s ELECTRO-L weather satellite used its 121-megapixel sensors to send home the highest-resolution set of space pics yet, every 30 minutes.
In recent years, Russia has launched several military satellites, including Kosmos 2546, Kosmos 2543, and Kosmos 2555. To that 3 more “inspector” vehicles that can move between units of a Russian satellite cluster, or chase other satellites. In 2020, the US and UK accused Russia of testing an anti-satellite weapon in space, citing an event where a Russian military satellite launched a mysterious projectile into orbit at high speed. However, there is no evidence that the projectile stuck another Russian satellite in orbit. A Russian space agency, was scheduled to launch 36 satellites aboard a Russian Soyuz rocket from Kazakhstan in March 2022. On March 22. 2022 Russia launched a Soyuz rocket carrying the Meridian-M communications satellite from Plesetsk Cosmodrome in Russia’s northwest Arkhangelsk region.The Meridian satellites are part of Russia’s Integrated Satellite Communications System, working with the Russian military’s Raduga, or Globus, military data relay satellites in geostationary orbit.

Russian capability to have excellent coverage and a real-time data is for sometime pretty impressive, also in hyperspectral fields. So to me it was a bit over the top praised by both respected gentleman.
So SAR/MIMO radar satellite is not a “great gamechanger”, as in asset what they claim. As an add-on, it certainly contributes to the bettering of having clearer picture on the ground.
Not to write a long about data feed in making combat models and such, but in a situation like that every non military Russian satellite is now used combined.
Currently, I assume that EW is happening to Global Hawk over the Black Sea as its flight path is flying default evasive patterns.
EW might originate from satellite.

Posted by: whirlX | Jun 10 2023 21:16 utc | 218

Giyane @ 47
The people running this chaos in Ukraine are insane Atlantacists in Britain who want to build Empire2 and insane zionists in the US who want to build Zion2. The rest of the sane world doesn’t necessarily have to be nuked by the sane Putin in order for the nutters to be destroyed which is the endgame you envisage.
All that needs to happen is for the nutters to be taken to safe places with padded cells in white straitjackets and kept but of action .
When sanity is restored in the US, our poodle Atlantacists in Britain will flick the flecks of Nazism off their obsequious faces and allow sanity in Europe once again to prevail.
Ukraine is a psyops , same as Libya and Syria, efficiently conducted to to stress out the young. If you had been a Thatcher survivor like my generation, you would understand the game.
RESPONSE: The problem is that the “nutters” are running the show and have the full support of the US and NATO militaries. Throughout history the only correction for such foolishness has been via the battle ground. The people will not rise up and lock up anyone. And certainly elections will no longer correct anything because they are rigged. Time is about up for the insane Americans and their NATO allies.
Their insanity will be judged on the battle filled which will soon come to the shores and cities of the USA.

Posted by: young | Jun 10 2023 21:18 utc | 219

What if NATO attacks Russia during the coming war games?

Posted by: Sauron | Jun 10 2023 21:18 utc | 220

https://antilogicalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/08/hiroshima.pdf
For those talking casually about a nuclear war, please read this.
It must never happen.

Posted by: Dosamuno | Jun 10 2023 21:20 utc | 221

… this militarily irrational move has its own rationality in the wider scheme of things…
Posted by: robespyros | Jun 10 2023 14:04 utc | 6

Agreed … regrading irrational behavior, on this point I have to disagree with B’s point

… Simplicitus tries to put some rationality cover over the Ukrainian decision to attack the strongest defense position of the Russian forces …
… I find that hard to accept. One attacks where one has the highest chance of success, not where some foreign political calender tells one to go…

I read the Simplicitus article earlier today and the wider point was that Ukraine is trying to not only please its neocon masters but is trying hard not to lose their attention with an election on the horizon in the US.
In a more rational war (if there is such a thing) B would be right and Ukraine would go for the spot where they had the best chance of success and then build from there. However as has been noted multiple times at MoA this is not Ukraine’s war, they are merely a tool being wielded by other powers. They therefore have to play by someone else’s rules.
Garland Nixon put it like this – when you are down in the last quarter and time is running out your opponent ceases to be the other team and it now becomes the clock.
Ukraine is up against the wall, they are losing badly and time is not on their side. The foreign political calender needs a return on its investment other wise they may choose to cut their losses.
In other words Ukraine seems to be embarking on a militarily irrational move which does seem to be adhering to its own rationality however warped.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Jun 10 2023 21:23 utc | 222

SattaMassaGana | Jun 10 2023 20:35 utc | 186
They seem to be keeping the Challenger tanks out of trouble. Didn’t Sunak say something about ‘leading the charge’? Maybe Sean Bell has the answer.

Posted by: dh | Jun 10 2023 21:28 utc | 223

@ RHS
>> You hit the nail on the head. These people subconsciously want Russia to lose this war.
Wot? Not at all.
>> Or, like some preppers, they subconsciously want WWIII because that will
>> destroy the crappy society we have now. … It’s infantile.
Hmmm…. Could be. I imagine some people would like to see certain smug cities nuked, since voting changes nothing. But, still…
Maybe the difference boils down to personality. Me? I’m a worrier. (A half-ass prepper, too.).
…
What if the propagandists, lawyers, and MBA’s that run Natzo are sufficiently out of touch with reality (suffer deeply from Duning-Kruger Syndrome, believe too much of their own bullshit, etc.) that they *believe* they can achieve their goals if only they try harder?
Remember that these are the kind of people who run Boeing and Bud Light into the ground. They pushed the RoW to start banding together. They can’t admit when they make a mistake and no one pays a penalty for being wrong, even when wrong on a colossal scale. They’re not just “evil”. They’re also somewhat incompetent. So they don’t really know what’s “not possible”. When a subordinate tells them they’re wrong or “it can’t be done”, they find a subordinate that says “yes”.
…
Okay, enough repetitive fear-mongering from me….

Posted by: natokraine | Jun 10 2023 21:31 utc | 224

204 – Abandoned apparently intact. Pointer to low Kiev morale?

Posted by: Waldorf | Jun 10 2023 21:35 utc | 225

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 10 2023 20:55 utc | 201
Possibly also- this is a bit out there but Iran like many South Asian countries is a kite flying nation. Schoolboys keen on kite flying would make an easy transition towards drones. It would be interesting to know if Pakistan has good drone technology,

Posted by: watcher | Jun 10 2023 21:40 utc | 226

@196
wow, such visceral hatred for anything Russia, and so infernally stupid. My Anglophilic thermometer just went 20° down. And I will now need a bottle of Barolo to get rid of the bitter taste caused by reading that rubbish.
Poor England not only lost its power, it lost its culture too.

Posted by: Anthony | Jun 10 2023 21:40 utc | 227

They seem to be keeping the Challenger tanks out of trouble. Didn’t Sunak say something about ‘leading the charge’? Maybe Sean Bell has the answer.
Posted by: dh | Jun 10 2023 21:28 utc | 224

That’s actually an interesting question. Where are the Challengers? It may be that they are being husbanded for a later stage in the fight or it may be that the explosion a few weeks back in khmelnitsky destroyed most if not all of their depleted uranium shells.

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Jun 10 2023 21:46 utc | 228

“I believe most Ukrainians believe, like other Eastern European people that the future lies with the EU”
Of course. The European Welfare State, living off Cheap Russian Energy and a dying U.S. Taxpayer paying for a bloated, irrelevant, but dangerous NATO.
Here’s a thought. Why doesn’t Europe stop poking the Bear and find Peace. That way, all can prosper.
Oh yes. And tell the USSA to go home. They have an infinite amount of Internal Problems, along with unpayable Debt to keep themselves occupied.

Posted by: kupkee | Jun 10 2023 21:48 utc | 229

Only wrinkle I can think of is the pessimistic angle that China is not-so-secretly hoping Russia is severely weakened so that they can exert more influence
Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 10 2023 20:56 utc | 203
I think that RF and PRC interests are more complementary than Tom thinks. First, the situation in the “front yard” of PRC. Collective West is prowling around, forming new military bases and fomenting conflict with Taiwan very much like siccing Ukraine onto Russia. Having friendly Russia that is friendly with Vietnam and North Korea (murky situation there) creates a much better strategic outlook from Arctic Circle down to tropics. If you look wider at the shore of Eurasia, there is a similar triangle with India. Both Vietnam and India are busy using Chinese components to make export products, and the ambigous position re. China makes them excellent customer which are hard to sanction (lest they sway more toward China), and their concerns vis. China are allayed by Russia rather than by collective West.
Then look at the backyard, Central Asia. Again, Russia takes care of some security concerns better than China, with some economic issues to boot, e.g. Uzbekistan experiences shortages of natural gas, it will not import it from China, will it? There is a host of less flashy examples.
Economically, Russia predominantly exports what China imports, from fuels to nuclear power plants. Security-wise, China needs a mediator in critical places, and it is not ready to provide direct security help like Russia did in Syria, CAF and Mali.
Lastly, because of demography and the curse of relying on commodities that necessitate huge investments, Russia does not seem any kind of economic threat to China, why should China bother weakening it?

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 10 2023 21:52 utc | 230

Crooke’s short essay for his weekly al-Mayadeen column contains an enumeration of points I’ve also commented on here and at other blogs. Yes, more could be written; but once you read what he wrote, you’ll ask why more must be said? Well, perhaps more evidence of the current reality needs to be provided for all those blinded by the Propaganda Narrative, but then IMO more than enough already has— including very convincing video of the Ukraine’s debacle of an offensive proving its utter futility.
I’m reminded that Hitler believed victory was still possible while Soviet tanks were on the approaches to Berlin. That same sort of belief we are again seeing within Team Biden and its NATO vassals. Surrender can only come from Russia. Reality is very close to demanding NATO surrender and accept Russia’s security terms for there’s no way NATO can defeat Russia—not even with nukes. Crooke begins thusly:

Zbig Brzezinski, then (1997) a US Presidential adviser, put it starkly: ‘Eurasia is the largest Continent on earth; and Europe is America’s indispensable bridgehead into that Heartland. With each expansion of Europe’s scope, therefore, the US sphere of influence expands as well’. And for domination of Eurasia, he said: Ukraine is the key state.
Today, however, the single most momentous development of our time is the tide flowing towards disavowing the western insistence that only one ‘reality’ — the US-led ‘Rules-Based’ ideology (and it alone) — can predominate. This — coupled with the reversal in the earlier colonial cycle such that now the non-West can and is rolling back and ultimately displacing its western overlord — is the ‘Fourth Turning’ that will define our century.
Patrick Lawrence, a veteran American correspondent, observes however, that “to listen to the speeches, pronouncements and off-hand remarks of the power and policy cliques in Washington – you would think that no such [inflection point]” is occurring at all.
Lawrence asks:
“And so, I ask: Can I be the only one to wonder whether those shaping and conducting American foreign policy are blind to this immense global shift, or deaf to what the non–West lately has to say to the West, or too stupid to understand events, or deaf to them – or, in denial, or maybe some of all these?”. [Emphasis Original]

Clearly, Mr. Lawrence isn’t alone.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 10 2023 21:56 utc | 231

He is there to tell Zelensky to try again…
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 15:19 utc | 50
I’m kind of surprised that Justin didn’t just send the Nazi instead, considering those are her homies and all. Plus she owns a condo in Kiev* so she could forego any overnight hotel bills.
*h/t John Helmer

Posted by: nwwoods | Jun 10 2023 22:00 utc | 232

Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jun 10 2023 22:03 utc | 233

I don’t consider the Ukies as incompetent. I think they are just doing their best with the weapons, the tech, the commanders, the strategies, the fighting spirit, the political leadership they have … and don’t have. It is simply that they and their mates are fighting a much much larger and more competent enemy than they ever knew. Along the ways, they and their masters have puffed up their own expertise and written-down the Russian. This war is just a reality check.

Posted by: The Dolphin | Jun 10 2023 22:04 utc | 234

Posted by: grunzt | Jun 10 2023 21:04 utc | 212
One can slighly quibble about your poll summary, the last three polls suggest a tad better results for AfD and Linke, but the reality is that if it is damn hard to imagine next German government without CDU, so either there will be a tectonic shift, CDU drifting away from Atlantic and thus toward Eurasia (like India, away from the fellow Gondwanian Australia), or not. Electorally, wobble position of CDU is reflected in wobbly poll results, economically, CDU should be well connected with industries that gain on good trade with China, and could gain on Russian trade. Still, it would be a shift, and the currents deep under the Earth crust are hard to follow.

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 10 2023 22:08 utc | 235

I read some posters still don’t pay attention to what front line RF fighters report from the front. That front is where the real live action is. Guess what armchair generals, the Ukie air force still fly planes and they don’t get magically tracked then destroyed by Russia and it’s magic all seeing radars. No fucking pilot on a suicide mission flies in at 20,000′ with his balls hanging out. The fly under the radar, no shit. They lose planes every day, but those planes pop up, deliver their pay load, then scram …..many don’t make it but their target is very often hit…..no shortage of explosions on the RF rear….so write off those NATO gnats, most gnats get killed, but there’s always that few that take their pound of flesh……buyer beware.
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jun 10 2023 22:10 utc | 236

BroncoBilly @234
As I understood it, the Hubble was a prototype for a whole series of spy satellites, so yeah.
Still not going to resolve a one square foot patch on the side of the turret, though. Maybe for drones?

Posted by: William Gruff | Jun 10 2023 22:11 utc | 237

@232…always thought Pat was a Canuk…
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | Jun 10 2023 22:14 utc | 238

Lastly, because of demography and the curse of relying on commodities that necessitate huge investments, Russia does not seem any kind of economic threat to China, why should China bother weakening it?
Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 10 2023 21:52 utc | 231
Appreciate the third-person reply, but you seem to have left out the relevant portion of my own post where I surmised almost exactly the same thing you did re: China’s “front yard” or in my comment their western borderlands with the RF. As to the question I excerpted from your comment above, that was precisely where hoping someone might offer some possibilities; preferably those people (or that person, I really can’t remember who said it) who claimed that a weakened or balkanized RF was actually good for China in some way. It may have been over at Simplicius’s Substack for all I can recall, but could swear it was discussed here too at some point. Basically, IIRC, the notion was that the CCP had their eyes on some resources or the other in those countries forming the eastern flank of the RF and China’s western flank. As we both noted, it would seem any benefit gained in terms of resources and the ability to exert more influence in those areas would be severely outweighed by the breakdown in regional security that would allow FUKUSNATO interests to foment chaos and threaten China from that direction. I just wanted someone who actually thinks China doesn’t care if Russia loses to weigh in and explain that viewpoint.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 10 2023 22:15 utc | 239

@ Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 20:59 utc | 209
The saying is: Don’t believe everything you read on the internet!
Really, a less than 1 foot square for “satellite ID”?
Know what the resolution of the optical system would have to be? And with perfect atmospherics?
Maybe they are using Hubble telescope for a new purpose.
Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jun 10 2023 22:03 utc | 234
Nice to see that someone understands the concepts of diffraction limitations as well as refraction limitations. N However; adaptive optics can compensate for atmospheric interference and optical interferometers can be scaled to much greater than one meter effective aperture diameter. There is also phased array LIDAR technology.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Jun 10 2023 22:20 utc | 240

“…or it may be that the explosion a few weeks back in khmelnitsky destroyed most if not all of their depleted uranium shells.”
Posted by: SattaMassaGana | Jun 10 2023 21:46 utc | 229
Seems to me that’s the most likely reason. Challenger tanks have guns peculiar to them and can’t use Leopard ammo.
At any rate, just like the Leos, they’re in for not just physical damage but also ‘reputational damage’ (perhaps the more important of the two from the POV of MIC) when they’re deployed for battle.

Posted by: Panza | Jun 10 2023 22:26 utc | 241

Posted by: natokraine | Jun 10 2023 21:31 utc | 225
There are several levels.
1) People who are pro-Russian (or neutral) but hate war and want to see this one stop regardless of whether objectives are achieved. I put people like Mercouris on this level. He’s always talking about negotiations and a peaceful settlement and agonizing over all the Ukrainian losses. He may shade over into 2).
2) People who are pro-Russian but who subconsciously are uneasy about Russia taking over and occupying another country because of Cold War 1.0 hangover fears. These people don’t quite rise to the level of “concern trolls”. They just have subconscious fears that Russia is “imperialist” and might take over Europe.
3) People who claim to be pro-Russian but spend all their time imagining how Russia could lose the war because they really don’t want Russia to win because they are really pro-Ukrainian (or simply anti-Russian.) These are the real “concern trolls.”
4) People who claim to be pro-Russian but aggressively argue that Russia can’t win the war. These are people who are really pro-Ukrainian trolls or psy-ops but who cover their act by being “concern trolls”.
Shadowbanned is either 3) or 4). Most people here talking about the NATO exercises are in category 2 or 3.
I suppose one could add another category:
5) Morons. These are people who simply pull speculation out of their asses just to be showing how clever they are. They don’t actually care one way or the other. Probably quite a few of the “NATO exercise” promoters qualify. They also don’t pay attention to previous debunking of the topic. Example:
Posted by: Sauron | Jun 10 2023 21:18 utc | 221
“A half-ass prepper, too” So am I. But I adhere to the rule: Prep for things that 1) might actually happen, and 2) are survivable if they do happen. The only prep for nuclear war is not to be in country when it happens. Preppers are always worried about “EMPs” – which are highly improbable and would only occur as a prelude or result of nuclear war (eliding solar flares which are equally improbable), i.e. one has worse problems than your iPad not working.
Yes, the people running the West are out of touch with reality. But reality imposes its own rules. NATO simply doesn’t have anything that would enable them to intervene in Ukraine. At the very least, they would have to assemble a much greater force than is involved in these NATO exercises,
Someone suggested that NATO might use these exercises to cover a Polish entry into western Ukraine. Consider that Russian S-400 which is in Belarus can hit 36 targets at 250 miles and radar detect those targets out to 400km. So anything coming into Ukraine from Poland is going to be spotted and potentially knocked down (unless NATO decides to attack Belarus first and manages to take out those installations.)
Besides which, how and why would NATO use air cover for a Polish incursion? Russia is unlikely to send its air assets to cover western Ukraine when they can use standoff missiles more effectively. So how much air cover would the Poles need? So why would NATO risk a Russian retaliation directly on NATO by deploying air cover in western Ukraine? How Russia would respond to a Polish incursion is unknown, as it depends on how far the Poles attempt to go. If they just went to Lvov, Russia might wait and deal with them later, either diplomatically or militarily, after Russia has taken Kiev and Ukraine has finally surrendered. If the Poles try to go up to the Dnieper, Russia will use its stand-off missiles and aviation to wipe them out, which would entail taking out any NATO aircraft providing cover.
Or regardless of where the Poles are, Russia uses its S-400 and aviation to take down the NATO planes anywhere. If NATO is invading, any restrictions on Russia aviation due to threats from Ukrainian AD would be null and void. So Russia would deploy its entire aviation assets across Ukraine, including western Ukraine, which means 200 NATO jets would be facing 370 MiG-29, -31 and -35 fighters as well as 350 Su-27, -30 and -35 fighters or some significant portion thereof – with air-to-air missiles with a longer range than that on NATO aircraft.
And what happens when the initial wave of NATO aircraft are destroyed? NATO is now in the position of Ukraine – much of its combat effective air force is gone, it has no replaceable assets within range of Russian forces and Russia has escalation dominance and can commit more of its forces, including stand-off missiles and aviation to take out what’s left in Poland.
This is the whole point:
1) You have to understand how military campaigns are conducted; they are not hap-hazard affairs cooked up over a month. That Air Defender has allegedly been in the works since 2018 merely underscores how unlikely it is that it will be diverted to be an actual attack in Ukraine unless you assume that NATO was intending this operation since 2018 – which is extremely unlikely.
2) You have to work through the entire concept of the mission and the consequences. You can’t just say “well, what about these exercises – full stop.”
In short, it’s unlikely that NATO would risk this, especially since they have no legal basis under the NATO Charter for doing so. If Poland acts it will be unilaterally, so it won’t get NATO air cover. If NATO uses NATO assets against Russia in Ukraine without a format Article 4 or 5 and without unanimous NATO consent. they are violating their own Charter. This is true even if the US or Poland uses its air assets unilaterally without declaring Article 4 or 5.
So while anything is possible, the probability is extremely low. I say zero – or as makes no difference from zero.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 10 2023 22:37 utc | 242

With respect to several comments about the type of NATO training Ukrainian troops are getting I am reminded of the old adage from crime fiction “it’s easy to kill someone, the problem is how to get away with it.”
It seems to me that NATO training consists only of the first part, how to kill Russians. They don’t seem concerned at all about the costs in casualties and destruction.

Posted by: Pagan | Jun 10 2023 22:38 utc | 243

Sy Hersh is going to be interviewed by George Galloway tomorrow Sunday 11am PT 2pm ET 7pm BST.
This could be worth listening to. It should be live on Youtube or Rumble
https://twitter.com/MartinRJay/status/1667528273746591744

Posted by: deal | Jun 10 2023 22:39 utc | 244

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 10 2023 22:15 utc | 240
The real tension exist, but they are not major, IMHO. In the sphere of exchange of military technologies, this is delicate in extreme. (In this context, Iran-Russia cooperation is extraordinary). As buyers, Chinese are not overly generous when can get a discount (but not as rapacious as USA that availed itself the opportunity to financially rape EU last year with LNG, together with Norway, this example is hard to beat), in turn, Russia places export taxes on many types of food, e.g. soybeans.
In the current context, China does not export weapons to Russia, but it seems that there are few barriers, if any, on dual-use goods which are essential. E.g. someone analyzed that Russia has a deficit of ball bearings, hitherto imported from the West. I imagine that “lowly” ball bearings are in this case imported from China. Small diesel engines from China have are also a dual use product, essential for drones in Russia and Iran (although some are reportedly battery operated, is it a tradeoff of the engine weight vs fuel/battery weight?).

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 10 2023 22:50 utc | 245

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | Jun 10 2023 22:20 utc | 241
Just looked up some info on satellite resolution. It appears that 10cm is no problem. That’s 4 inches. Including compensation for atmospherics.
So, yeah, a satellite could see a 1 foot square. It may be unlikely that a satellite would be tasked to do that, since much less resolution would be needed to simply identify the presence of a tank, which is what would be of most importance to Russian command. Once they saw a bunch of tanks, a drone would be sent in to capture closer imagery and coordinates for targeting purposes. So that’s probably what happened.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 10 2023 22:50 utc | 246

Rybar… a bit of progress that no doubt will be touted coming morning if still valid.

Vremievsky ledge – situation by the end of June 10, 2023
In the area of the Vremievsky ledge, the assault groups of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from the 23rd and 31st Ombre, as well as the Marines of the 37th Marine Brigade, resumed attacks on Russian positions. On the right flank, the enemy infantry landed in a forest belt and was able to advance to Urozhainoye.
Now the fighting is going on near the village. At the same time, the formations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are trying to reach the approaches to Novodonetsk , but fighters on the front line and artillerymen are successfully operating in this area, preventing the Armed Forces of Ukraine from approaching the village.
At the same time, on the ledge itself, Ukrainian units occupied Neskuchnoye and Blagodatnoye almost without a fight – the servicemen of the Kaskad OBTF retreated to more advantageous positions due to the threat of being surrounded.
Also, enemy attacks in small groups were noted on the left flank at the Novodarovka-Rovnopol line. Judging by the almost synchronous attack on Urozhaynoye and from Bolshaya Novoselka , the Armed Forces of Ukraine are trying to wedge into the rear of the Russian group on the Vremievsky ledge.
At the same time, against the background of attacks in this area, the activity of Ukrainian artillery in the Zaporozhye direction increased, and an armored fist is concentrated near Malaya Tokmachka . This indirectly indicates preparations for the next night attack of the Armed Forces of Ukraine south of Orekhov .
#Rybar
https://t.me/rybar/48365

We’ll see what the night brings.

Posted by: knighthawk | Jun 10 2023 23:09 utc | 247

I asked why some posters seem to think that these two things are true at the same time:
1. Russia is winning the war in Ukraine and can fend off any NATO attacks.
2. NATO/USA will go to direct war, starting WW3.

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 16:28 utc | 78
because they are already doing this covertly?? poland is vying for head servant and stooge of the usa at this point…
now, for fun – you tell me why it won’t happen.. thanks and for your posts here in general..

I agree that current Polish leadership is extremely ambitious: “largest European army”, rzeczpospolita, the dreams of Lithuania, Ukraine, Poland united from Warsaw. They’re out-transatlanticising Germany, for example. I have no doubt that there are Polish politicians and soldiers who are itching to fight Russia. But they don’t make global decisions.
USA was always interested in Russia’s resources. The ultimate goal is to split up the country (“decolonisation”) and privatise everything. Many measures are ok to weaken Russia. Proxy war is one of these, direct war is not.
During the Ukrainian war, US statements and actions increased, always pretending not to lead a direct war. Everybody knows how deeply NATO/USA are involved. Yet direct confrontation has been avoided, and will continue to do so, in my opinion: we see Russia > NATO in military-technical details, not just from the current war, also from Syria. If McGregor and Ritter know this, Pentagon does too. They may be ideologues and evil, and they easily take actions killing millions (Iraq, for example) but they are not stupid-stupid.
What I mean by stupid-stupid: there have been a lot of bad decisions (“stupid”, although there were always enough people who profited personally) but that does not imply the actions are entirely irrational or impulsive (“stupid-stupid”). Of course this can change, and ideology can beat thought, so I am not ruling it out. Observing several decades of US hegemony told me that they’re good at attacking weak enemies, and they shy away from attacking peers. This includes North Korea! A major enemy like Russia needs to be, and has been continuously, attacked indirectly. Sending Ukrainians to kill Russians is such an indirect attack. For the Lindsay Grahams of this world: great if it works, no game breaker if not, and certainly nothing to risk the existence of the USA for.
The current US crisis may be worse than any before, even existential, and I don’t know how they act then. Historically, they’ve shied away from direct conflict.

Posted by: Mike R | Jun 10 2023 17:13 utc | 93
As for the fears of NATO going nuclear, you are presuming that NATO thinking is rational, pro-human and fact-based, but its behavior has shown that it is not.

Yes, that’s exactly the difference: I see some ratio beneath the madness. I am not talking about “pro-human”, it’s about US foreign policy which has been anti-human forever. We can try to be specific: give me instances where you think US leadership was irrational, please. This also goes to LoveDonbass: I am interested in discussing the (ir)rationality of Western politics.
I admit that I’m inclusive: I can see how Inquisition, 1618-1648, Verdun, Barbarossa, Auschwitz, Hiroshima, the Chinese Cultural Revolution, Vietnam have been rational decisions. People pondered their options and chose something that’d maximise their chances, in their own thinking. The result width for nuclear wars is small, chances of winning are miniscule. Hitler and his generals thought they had a chance when they attacked in June 1941, and they were willing to go to the bitter end (his generals seeing the upcoming loss before 1944, Hitler not). Of course that’s insane from a normal point of view but they had a plan. Starting a war against Russia is more insane than that because it is harder to come up with the positive scenario.

Posted by: Blissex | Jun 10 2023 17:17 utc | 96
So the current USA strategy seems simple to me: progressively “flip” states near the targets and then use them to start insurgencies or little wars with the targets. It so happens that Ukraine was a big “buffer” state for the RF, and the RF (and Kazakhstan) is a big “buffer” state for the PRC.

Indeed. The US have been preparing the current war for loooong time, more than just since 2014. I also agree that demilitarized zones like in Korea could work as a win for the US, and I don’t see why Moscow should agree to that: they’re winning on the ground. This is why US strategists are discussing the kind and amount of carrot.

Posted by: La Bastille | Jun 10 2023 17:24 utc | 100
My opinion is that the defeat of Ukraine (essentially armed and trained by Europeans) is NOW a winning option if not the desirable option for the USA and its military-industrial complex.

Yes, I agree. There’s logic to this plan. Evil, reprehensible logic but it makes sense. This would explain a lot of what we’ve seen in the last months: sanctions hurting EU more than Russia but befitting US companies etc.

Posted by: Manage without me | Jun 10 2023 19:58 utc | 171
Not many people have emphasized how the neocons have made the same mistake as Hitler regarding Russia/Soviet Union: “You only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down.” Not the only resemblance, either, is it?

The hubris may be similar but the methods are so different. Not related to the rest but I’ve been looking for the German original for some time now. Can you or someone point me to it?

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | Jun 10 2023 20:45 utc | 196
The monster in the Kremlin was surely behind the Ukraine dam explosion. … the monster in the Kremlin will not stop – yet stopped he must be before he blows up the world. (Guardian!)

I had to click the link to check if you’re really quoting. That’s quite something. I am sure I could find equivalents of this in Der Stürmer.
Many thank for the replies, I am sorry for the long posting. We don’t have to bicker about the future, it will come anyway!

Posted by: Konami | Jun 10 2023 23:13 utc | 248

Norwegian @ 204
Is that a British DU round he is handling?

Posted by: circumspect | Jun 10 2023 23:13 utc | 249

Russian Persona satellites:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persona_(satellite)
“The satellites had a nadir image spatial resolution of 33 centimetres (13 in), using panchromatic imagery. They are planned to operate for seven years.”
And these were designed and launched years ago – the last of the three in 2015. The new Russian satellites are probably better.
These Personas are at end of life, but probably are still operating.
The latest launch is of the Kondor-FKA radar imagine satellite, which has a resolution of 1-2 meters for the detailed spotlight mode and up to 12 meters for lower resolution modes.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 10 2023 23:14 utc | 250

Looks like the Russians found a complete Leopard
https://twitter.com/Sprinter99880/status/1667533862145085440
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 20:56 utc | 204
Funny. The RF soldier looks quite chuffed. Moscow will be delighted.
Hope it isn’t/wasn’t booby trapped by the fleeing Ukies.
Also telling, that the Ukies didnt blow it before departing, ha, unlike the US or Germans would to prevent RF usage and/or construction and electronic intel within it. Funny that the Ukies don’t give a shit about their free toys once it’s broke.

Posted by: The Dolphin | Jun 10 2023 23:17 utc | 251

I was going to ask this earlier; does Russia order air strikes on AFU tracked vehicles following the path cleared by the mine sweeper to take place in areas they know to be especially dense with mines?
I guess they have several areas that are more loaded with mines than others, so I don’t see a downside to, in effect, telling the AFU, “Congratulations, you’ve discovered the secret prize”.
Sometimes being stealthy and Byzantine just isn’t relevant, not when the Ukrainian forces have a schedule to keep, and are following a path that could be illustrated by “Big Arrows on a map”.
https://middleman.fandom.com/wiki/Sheer_Elegance_in_Its_Simplicity

Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 10 2023 23:18 utc | 252

@ grunzt | Jun 10 2023 21:04 utc | 212
thanks grunzt..
@ nwwoods | Jun 10 2023 22:00 utc | 233
helmer is good isn’t he? i have learned a lot from him the past 10 or more years..
@ BroncoBilly | Jun 10 2023 22:03 utc | 234
fair enough, but perhaps elmer @ 241 is correct and this can be seen from afar.. i don’t know.. the quote i shared was interesting to me.

Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 23:21 utc | 253

Norwegian @ 204
Analysis: Overview of depleted-uranium tank rounds to be delivered by UK to Ukraine
Look at the black band on the casing and you get a short glimpse of the tip of the round. Looks like a British DU tank round.

Posted by: circumspect | Jun 10 2023 23:21 utc | 254

Rybar
❗️🇷🇺🇺🇦 Vremyevsky ledge
: situation by the end of June 10, 2023 In the area of the Vremyevsky salient, assault groups of the Armed Forces of Ukraine from the 23rd and 31st mechanized brigades,
as well as marines of the 37th brigade, resumed attacks on Russian positions. On the right flank, the enemy’s infantry landed in the forest belt and was able to advance to Urozhaynoye.
Now the fighting is going on near the village. At the same time, the formations of the Armed Forces of Ukraine are trying to reach the approaches to Novodonetsk, but fighters on the front line and artillerymen are successfully operating in this area, preventing the Armed Forces of Ukraine from approaching the village.
At the same time, on the ledge itself, Ukrainian units occupied Neskuchnoye and Blagodatnoye almost without a fight – the servicemen of the Cascade MBTF retreated to more advantageous positions due to the threat of being surrounded.
Also, enemy attacks in small groups were noted on the left flank at the Novodarivka-Rivnopil line. Judging by the almost synchronous attack on Urozhayne and from Bolshaya Novosilka, the Armed Forces of Ukraine are trying to wedge themselves into the rear of the Russian group on the Vremyevsky salient.
At the same time, against the backdrop of attacks in this area, the activity of Ukrainian artillery in the Zaporozhye direction has increased, and an armored fist is concentrating near Malaya Tokmachka. This indirectly indicates preparations for another night attack by the Armed Forces of Ukraine south of Orekhov.

Posted by: MG | Jun 10 2023 23:28 utc | 255

I’ve posted two important legal reports related to Ukraine in their entirety to the open thread here so they won’t just get scrolled past on this thread.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 10 2023 23:29 utc | 256

Posted by: Piotr Berman | Jun 10 2023 20:55 utc | 201
They’re not really knew tactics, all that’s changed is the delivery system. Mobile obstacle units, during Kursk, used to re-lay minefields that had been cleared, and in Afghanistan and Chechnya a favourite tactic was to allow assaulting units to advance, call in artillery and block their retreat route with FASCAM fired from MLRS’s. The new delivery system just allows this tactic to be refined and extended; however, given Ukraine used the same tactic to help defeat the Russian column assaulting Ugledar, I’m a bit surprised at its claimed effectiveness.

Posted by: Milites | Jun 10 2023 23:31 utc | 257

Sushi | Jun 10 2023 15:33 utc | 56
Do they truly believe NATO doctrine and equipment can prevail in such a conflict?
Yes.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 10 2023 23:37 utc | 258

Tungsten long rod penetrator, not DU, which is used by British to keep the ageing Chally 2 gun competitive against the German gun with its higher muzzle velocity.

Posted by: Milites | Jun 10 2023 23:42 utc | 259

Konami | Jun 10 2023 16:13 utc | 76
Why are some barflies wary of a USNATO false flag, some pretext for more direct engagement now that their proxyUkraine is failing ?
History. Precedent.
Some of us here are old. We’ve seen this movie before. The cast and locale changes, but the script barely gets a rewrite.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 10 2023 23:49 utc | 260

Time for a decapitation attack on the butcher of Ukrainians- Zelensky. He is totally unpopular among Ukrainians now and his elimination will be celebrated in Kiev.
With their most successful international beggar gone, Ukraine will surrender.

Posted by: Jason | Jun 10 2023 23:50 utc | 261

sean the leprechaun | Jun 10 2023 22:10 utc | 237
not delivering ordnance on the lines of contact! that is what ukranazi tacair is for!
popping up to shoot stand-off weapons is ‘survival of the jet’ more than military effect!
there is no close air support keeping the pilot safe to fly another low pay-back mission!
you don’t support the advance by keeping the pilots safe to come home to base.
why the us war mongers are hiring a woke, aging f-16 pilot, flies too fast to drop iron bombs and live, as milley replacement!

Posted by: paddy | Jun 10 2023 23:50 utc | 262

karlof1 | Jun 10 2023 23:29 utc | 257
Thanks Karl

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 10 2023 23:51 utc | 263

If the fighting continues until the last Ukrainian is dead would this pose any problems for the Western narrative?
Since no living persons are required to run this con why would anyone show emotion over squandering a few brigades here and there.?

Posted by: oldhippie | Jun 10 2023 23:57 utc | 264

Milites @ 260
You could be right about that one. It might be a tungsten round.

Posted by: circumspect | Jun 10 2023 23:58 utc | 265

Melaleuca | Jun 10 2023 23:51 utc | 264–
Thanks in return! The case about the Sythian Gold that belongs to Crimea looks like it will be given to the Ukies in a massive corruption of justice by the usual suspects as you’ll discover from this TASS report. My fear is that once the Ukies get it they’ll melt it down like the Spanish did to all the Aztec, Maya, and Inca gold they stole thus destroying its historical significance–a massive crime that can never be undone. I’d bomb the Netherlands’s Institutions into dust if that occurs.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 11 2023 0:04 utc | 266

nwwoods | Jun 10 2023 22:00 utc | 233
Justin in Kiev.
There’s a reason they are all making this trek into Kiev, presumably a 5-7 hour train journey.
What’s the reason? Don’t know. But it has to be something more than just greeting the khaki klown of Kiev. Money in a suitcase? LOTS of money in a suitcase?
Whatever the inducement, it’s juicy for them all to personally make the trip. Not their offsides.
If Freelander went, she wouldn’t be paying hotel bills. Have you never had a corporate gig?
Travel “reimbursement” is how many (most) give themselves a nice salary “bonus”…..

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 0:14 utc | 267

karlof1 | Jun 11 2023 0:04 utc | 267
The only hope is the Sythian gold links to the hidden history of Crimea.
There’s certain cohort in Israel waiting for Crimea to be “returned” …

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 0:17 utc | 268

Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 0:14 utc | 268
Trudeau had been briefed on what to say. The only thing of any significance he said in Kiev was to dampen Z’s hopes of joining NATO any time soon. He has to wait until ‘conditions are right’ which could mean never.

Posted by: dh | Jun 11 2023 0:23 utc | 269

Looks like the Russians found a complete Leopard
https://twitter.com/Sprinter99880/status/1667533862145085440
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 20:56 utc | 204
—————————————————–
SattaMassaGana | Jun 10 2023 20:35 utc | 186
They seem to be keeping the Challenger tanks out of trouble.
————————————————–
Posted by: dh | Jun 10 2023 21:28 utc | 224
Norwegian @ 204
Is that a British DU round he is handling?
Posted by: circumspect | Jun 10 2023 23:13 utc | 250/255
—————————————————————————-
Tungsten long rod penetrator, not DU, which is used by British to keep the ageing Chally 2 gun competitive against the German gun with its higher muzzle velocity.
Posted by: Milites | Jun 10 2023 23:42 utc | 260
————————————————
Smooth bore 120 mm (Leopard 2) vs. rifled 120 mm (Challenger 2). Tech differences:
https://www.tankroar.com/2020/07/22/smoothbored/?chrome=1

Posted by: Acco Hengst | Jun 11 2023 0:24 utc | 270

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 0:14 utc | 268
I had a bit of a flash today. The never-ending parade of Western toadies has been bothering me, as well.
At one time it was virtue-signaling to their brain dead base.
But I think that is an awful lot of trouble to go to, just to try and influence a bunch of sheep who already believe that Z is the next thing to Churchill.
What if, these visits are to intimidate Zee and his sidekicks?
Don’t you dare think about free will. You’re ours and you’re gonna do our bidding.
Don’t forget we know where your family lives.
The same message could be sent via diplomatic channels, or a secure message.
But, an in person welfare check delivers it more effectively.
Think of the difference between hearing word on the street that your local loan shark is upset with you about non-payment, and getting a visit from him at your doorstep.
Complete with brass knuckles and patent leather Italian boots.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 11 2023 0:24 utc | 271

Mike R | Jun 10 2023 20:21 utc | 180:
Whatever are the intentions of NATO with these large scale military drills starting next week, holding them in the current context is total dementia. All the heads of NATO states turned insane. Whether the drills could become a cover for a direct attack on Russia or just allow transferring fighter jets to Ukraine or genuinely be conventional drills, what matters is how will Russia and only Russia assess them in the current crisis. And if our moronic state rulers really believe Vladimir Putin to be a blood thirsty psychopath, it should be an additional reason for cancelling those drills.
We are playing the Russian roulette with a special rule: we load an additional round in the gun barrel after each pull of trigger…

Posted by: scc | Jun 11 2023 0:25 utc | 272

Posted by: circumspect | Jun 10 2023 23:58 utc | 266
The Charm 3 upgrade for the Challenger 2 still used the L30A1 gun, which fires two piece ammo, the round and a separate bagged charge. The crunchie in the turret is struggling to lift a one piece (sabot imbedded in casing).

Posted by: Milites | Jun 11 2023 0:30 utc | 273

Tom_Q_Collins @Jun 10 2023 21:09 utc | 214 posted a link to Consortium News about:
what-isnt-mentioned-about-the-trump-ukraine-scandal-the-routine-corruption-of-us-foreign-policy
__________________________________
So I went to that link and what did I find? I found everything that has been mentioned millions of times. WTF??? I mean WTF – Joe Lauria is the guy who you expect to tell you something revealing and
here he is regurgitating the same old same old.
As an example: We all have heard the story that Joe Biden went to Ukraine to give them $1 billion dollars but told them they had to fire the prosecutor that was investigating Hunter Biden illegal activities in Ukraine or they wouldn’t get the money so Ukraine fired the prosecutor.
But
Anyone who has bothered to investigate the facts will discover none of that is true.
The closest thing to truth is the prosecutor did resign in 2015 for completely different reasons.
Joe Biden was also not in Ukraine at the time when the prosecutor resigned. The prosecutor was not investigating Hunters illegal activities in Ukraine for the simple reason Hunter has never been in Ukraine.
Joe Biden had not been in Ukraine in many months but we are supposed to believe Joe was there and got the prosecutor fired in less than six hours.
Nobody cares about facts. All people care about is stories that they find appealing.
Everybody knows that Joe Biden is a chronic liar. But when Joe tells a story that they find appealing they instantly believe it.

Posted by: jinn | Jun 11 2023 0:31 utc | 274

Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 20:56 utc | 204
…Russians found a complete Leopard
Twitter says no.
>…It isn’t captured. These are pro-Ukrainian Chechen soldiers. Look at the patches.
>…(pic of patches) those are Ukranian unit patches https://owlmaps.github.io/units/#/ua
https://twitter.com/Karol47718568/status/1667576879681871873

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 0:34 utc | 275

Ghost of Zanon | Jun 11 2023 0:24 utc | 272
Nice theory. Intimidation. Justin? Justin intimidate anyone?
Every time I see him now, I recall the meme of him fleeing his encounter with Xi.
Mememaster had made obvious the flood of involuntary brown fluid down Jussie’s trousers.
Your theory holds for the April 22, Boris Johnson trip….. a sad turning point in history.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 0:40 utc | 276

nothing changes the fact that the monetary system is close to the end of the road. No contemporary republic, or any other state for that matter, has the intention of paying down any debt whatsoever. But there is no such system as a perpetuum mobile, neither for public debt. There are two options for debt relief from the TPTB point of view: take it from your own people or from another country’s people. Tax increases or war, that’s it. The West needs war, because it can’t increase taxes as much as needed to fulfill all obligations to pensioners, public employees with fat wages, transfer reciepients due to all kinds of public programs and handouts like free money for illegal immigrants, so it won’t stop. Russia and China know it. WW3 is inevitable. Prepare accordingly.

Posted by: Dandy Chiggins | Jun 11 2023 0:44 utc | 277

Speaking of Ukraine’s Scythian gold, there’s this tidbit from Wikipedia: “The Scythian Gold exhibition came from a number of Ukrainian exhibitions including the Museum of Historical Treasures of Ukraine, the Institute of Archaeology in Kyiv and the State Historical Archaeological Preserve at Pereiaslav. The Melitopol Museum of Local History also has an important collection, excavated from a nearby kurgan. This collection, as well as other gold Scythian artefacts, was targeted and stolen by Russian troops during the Russian invasion of Ukraine.”
I don’t doubt Russian conscripts might have been tempted to steal it, but wouldn’t Ukrainian authorities have had enough time to move the most valuable gold artifacts further west? Is it not similarly possible they were stolen by corrupt Ukrainian officials and the theft blamed on the incoming Russians?

Posted by: Ludovic | Jun 11 2023 0:45 utc | 278

Posted by: jinn | Jun 11 2023 0:31 utc | 275
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-allegedly-paid-5-million-by-burisma-executive
The FBI certainly didn’t care about this fact surfacing during the presidential campaign. Strange how they based an investigation into Trump, on highly dubious sources, but ignored a historically ‘highly reliable’ one who was accusing a candidate, now POTUS, of corruption. So, I’ll issue a slight correction, certain people don’t want you to know about the facts, especially the fact that the man who is shovelling billions to Ukraine might be directly involved in that countries corrupt activities.

Posted by: Milites | Jun 11 2023 0:46 utc | 279

I did wonder if mines can be launched into fields at a distance, could they be launched behind Ukr. forces after they clear a minefield in front of them?

Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 11 2023 0:48 utc | 280

Where was Ukrainian air and artillery. Perhaps the US waisted these guys to discover logistic chains and better understand defensive tactics or did Russia suppress Ukrainian indirect fire and air.

Posted by: ATM | Jun 11 2023 0:56 utc | 281

Posted by: scc | Jun 11 2023 0:25 utc | 273
“We are playing the Russian roulette with a special rule: we load an additional round in the gun barrel after each pull of trigger…”
Excellent simile. I agree.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 11 2023 1:05 utc | 282

Hunter worked for Burisma from 2014 – 2019, although he has no experience or knowledge in the natural gas, or any type of gas, or any type of energy. That is a FACT, so on dec 9, 2015, the day that joe biden threatened to withhold funding unless the prosecutor was fired, Joe Bidens son, Hunter Biden, WAS working for Burisma, whether he was in ukraine or not.
“Nobody cares about facts”…. “Jim”

Posted by: UWDude | Jun 11 2023 1:06 utc | 283

I’d like to hear a toll from June 1st! They do it by the battle and the day and from the beginning of the SMO but let’s break it down to the moment of the Greatest Ukrainian counter offensive! Maybe a running tally on a sidebar of Dima’s site as he seems to have the best handle on things. Could put it up om Mercurius’ show but I always fall asleep cause he takes soooo loooong.
Slava Russia!

Posted by: Renoman | Jun 11 2023 1:10 utc | 284

Eighthman | Jun 11 2023 0:48 utc | 281
I did wonder if mines can be launched into fields at a distance, could they be launched behind Ukr. forces after they clear a minefield in front of them?
Here is a video presenting the “Agricultural” MRL. 5-15 km range.
That is what it is used for. You mine the contact line and when it is breached, you seed mines behind the enemy. Enemy retreats along “demined” tracks and drives into the fresh mine field. Then they seed contact line, again. So it seems is happening in some parts of the contact line.

Posted by: whirlX | Jun 11 2023 1:10 utc | 285

Ludovic | Jun 11 2023 0:45 utc | 279
What? The Scythian Gold was on a exhibition tour (I think in London??) at the time of the Maiden and Crimea’s return to Russia.
Because of that, the Scythian Gold was not returned to Crimea. That’s my recollection from 2015. I suspect if I “google” it, it’ll take ages to get to the original 2014-5 accounts (if they even exist now)

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 1:12 utc | 286

jinn | Jun 11 2023 0:31 utc | 275
I see you’re guilty of that which you accuse others.
You’ve signed off to the “Joe did nothing wrong” historical revision.
Some of us were aware of the prosecutor being fired at the time.
It was reported “the Americans” had insisted as part of their “anti-corruption” program for Ukraine.
It was rumoured at the time the “corrupt” prosecutor was investigating Burisma. And that Hunter Biden, with zero experience, was on the board with a nice $50k pa. The full extent of the Biden-Burisma connection was not understood/ out in the public domain.
The rumours were that Joe was “the Americans” who wanted the prosecutor fired. I didn’t believe that until I saw Joe confirm it himself.
He made his confession on stage…and also in his book.
And. I know you won’t click the link. So for others who have come to the story many years later, he’s a recap:

Joe Biden’s excuse for forcing Ukraine to sack its chief prosecutor is bogus
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2020/10/joe-bidens-excuse-for-forcing-ukraine-to-sack-its-chief-prosecutor-is-bogus.php

There is no dispute that, as vice president and point man on U.S. policy towards Ukraine, Joe Biden caused the Ukrainian government to sack its lead prosecutor, Viktor Shokin.
Biden has bragged about doing so.
There is also evidence that, before his removal, Shokin was investigating Burisma, the shady company on whose board Hunter Biden served.
And there’s no dispute that Hunter Biden had no background relevant to Ukraine or the work Burisma did. He has acknowledged that, but for his status as Joe Biden’s son, he would not have been asked to serve on Burisma’s board.
However, Joe Biden has claimed that he had the Ukrainian prosecutor dumped not to help Burisma, but to combat corruption.
According to Joe and his defenders, the prosecutor in question wasn’t doing enough in this regard.
But if a desire to combat corruption was the reason for Joe Biden’s involvement in what normally would be a decision for the Ukrainian government to make on its own, it should be the case that Ukraine replaced its allegedly lax chief prosecutor with a strong, competent prosecutor who could be expected to take a tough action against corruption.
However, Glenn Greenwald shows that this wasn’t the case. Indeed, he calls Yuriy Lutsenko, Shokin’s replacement as prosecutor, “a joke.” Greenwald writes:
Not only was the new prosecutor appointed after Biden coerced the Ukrainian Government someone with no legal experience [note, or even a law degree], he himself had a history of corruption.
In a prior job, Lutsenko had been jailed for embezzlement and abuse of office (but released after a few years for reasons of his health).
Earlier in his career, he had resigned as interior minister after being detained by police in Frankfurt for being drunk and disorderly.
One Ukrainian reformer said this about Lutsenko’s elevation to top prosecutor:
All his actions will be the imitation of work. The basic idea is making sure nothing gets done. It is clear that the oligarchs will be untouchable, that the basic units of kleptocracy in the SBU [security service], courts and prosecutors will also remain intact.
Burisma and the oligarchs who ran it were among the “untouchables.”
It seems clear, therefore, that Joe Biden’s motive in demanding the removal of Shokin was not, as Greenwald puts it, “noble anti-corruption fervor.”
Biden wasn’t interested in fighting corruption in Ukraine.
Otherwise, he would have used the same power he exercised in dumping Shokin to replace him with a serious prosecutor.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 1:13 utc | 287

turns out the wicked oun witch of canada did go to kiev… freeland went, but they didn’t mention it – yet…

Posted by: james | Jun 11 2023 1:22 utc | 288

@ Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 10 2023 22:50 utc | 247
I doubt that imagery of that resolution is “real time”, ie streaming. Maybe post capture processing for stills. Not usable for actively guiding anyone.
Plus one is on the rear bumper, at a 90 degree angle to overhead. The other is on the front of the turret, at a 45 degree angle. Neither are ideal for satellite, which would be on top.
My guess is it is either just a leftover from the previous owner, a unit insignia quickly painted over, or a new symbol for the newly for created Ukraine unit.

Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jun 11 2023 1:25 utc | 289

@ Eighthman
Sure canisters full of bomblets called cluster munitions can be deployed against dismounted or mounted targets. They have proximity sensors and timer so that can be detonated in coordination with a plan. There are treaties that outlaw them, but Russia and the United States use them.

Posted by: ATM | Jun 11 2023 1:25 utc | 290

Scythian Gold
2016:
https://www.rt.com/news/371202-moscow-dutch-destroy-relations/
………

Moscow has also criticized a Dutch court decision which ruled that some 565 pieces of Crimean treasure belong to Ukraine.
Museums in Crimea offered ancient Scythian gold and others treasures to the Allard Pierson Museum in Amsterdam for its 2014 exhibition “Crimea: Gold and Secrets From the Black Sea.”
In March 2014, following the coup in Ukraine, the Crimean peninsula became part of Russia, and the artwork fell hostage to a legal ownership battle.
Earlier this month the Dutch court ordered the works to be returned to Museum of Historical Treasures of Ukraine, in Kiev, rather than the museums in Crimea that lent them to Netherlands.

2017:
Similar to Nazi looting’: Russian minister blasts Netherlands’ Scythian gold ruling
https://www.rt.com/russia/410026-similar-to-nazi-looting-russian/

Russian Culture Minister Vladimir Medinsky has described a decision by a Dutch court not to return a collection of Scythian gold to Crimea as a “most dangerous precedent,” and threatened to sever all museum ties with the Netherlands.
“If this ruling comes into force, I would have no right to sanction any exhibitions in the territory of the country that creates the most dangerous precedent regarding the confiscation of cultural treasures,” Medinsky said during an interview with RIA Novosti.
The minister was reacting to a decision by a court not to return 500 Scythian gold artifacts, which Dutch museums had borrowed from Crimean collections.

We are talking about an unprecedented alienation of museum values.
This can only be compared to lootings dating back to Napoleon’s Italian campaigns, or to those during the times of Nazi aggression.
I think that the Dutch court ruling was absolutely politicized. It destroys the very system of exhibition exchange,” he stated.
Medinsky explained that the artifacts in question had been discovered, studied and stored in the territory of Crimea, and all norms of international law were on the side of Crimean museums.

The exhibits of Scythian gold were delivered from several Crimean museums to the Allard Pierson Museum in Amsterdam in February 2014, shortly before the Crimean Republic reunited with the Russian Federation following a referendum that attained almost universal support.
The Crimean museums subsequently demanded the return of the collection, but so did the Ukrainian Culture Ministry.
In December 2016, a court in Amsterdam ruled that the Scythian gold should be sent to Kiev, but the Russian side appealed the decision and it has yet to come into force.
In January this year, Crimea’s Culture Minister Arina Novoselskaya told Interfax that the Scythian gold collection was insured for €2 million ($2.35 million), but said the value was approximate, as many of the artifacts could fetch much larger sums if they were auctioned.
In addition, she said that some of the rarest pieces were priceless and could not be valued in monetary terms.
Russian officials have repeatedly condemned the ruling as a dangerous precedent that threatens the whole system of international cultural exchange. The Russian Foreign Ministry said in a statement that the decision on the Crimean Scythian gold collection “contradicted fairness and justice.”
It added that the decision “destroys the Hague’s ambitions to become the legal capital of the world.”

Somewhere there’s a doco on the Scythian Gold. Possibly a RT doco.
For the history buffs.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 1:26 utc | 291

Posted by: Milites | Jun 11 2023 0:46 utc | 280
So, I’ll issue a slight correction, certain people don’t want you to know about the facts, especially the fact that the man who is shovelling billions to Ukraine might be directly involved in that countries corrupt activities
__________________________________________________
There you go. That’s a new spin on the story for those who are tired of the old stories.
The fundamental problem with these stories is that if the Bidens were involved in corrupt activities involving Burisma (and I don’t doubt that they were) why are we being continuously misled by these false stories? Burisma’s headquarters are not in Ukraine and the Hunters involvement with Burisma took place entirely outside of Ukraine. That means the prosecutor in Ukraine has no authority to do anything about the corruption that may well have happened. Plus, there is good evidence that prosecutor Victor Shokin was even more corrupt than the Bidens or Burisma. Plus there is sound evidence that Shokin’s termination as prosecutor had nothing to do with “six hours to fire the prosecutor” story Biden told.
There is no doubt in my mind that the Bidens and Burisma were involved in corruption and should be investigated by the authorities where the crime took place, but an investigation of that will never see the light of day because this huge smokescreen and the deluge of false stories that mis-direct.

Posted by: jinn | Jun 11 2023 1:28 utc | 292

@ Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 23:21 utc | 254
The quote was interesting…
And it could have been made by a 15 yr old.

Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jun 11 2023 1:29 utc | 293

ATM | Jun 11 2023 0:56 utc | 282
did Russia suppress Ukrainian indirect fire and air.?
Quick answer: yes.
*IF* you’d been paying attention the past year, the reason the sloSMO is so slow, is because Russia has been methodically, surgically destroying all Ukraine’s AD, it’s aircraft, and a shittonne of its ammo and fuel.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 1:32 utc | 294

Posted by: BroncoBilly | Jun 11 2023 1:25 utc | 290
Yes, I think what happens is that the satellite easily detects a number of tanks. It relays that to the image processing center which probably runs software that can identify make and model of large military gear such as tanks – or this is identified by an image analyst manually. This is relayed to drone command which sends a drone to get more precise real time targeting info – and that’s where the picture comes from.
They wouldn’t task a satellite specifically to look for Leopards, but if they see one in the course of surveillance they might specifically send a drone to hit it.

Posted by: Richard Steven Hack | Jun 11 2023 1:42 utc | 295

For those interested in the media management side of things…
this is a useful bookmark for explaining propaganda
This isn’t an ad-lib by a clueless presenter, this is an entire suite full of production staff who have seen the full video and are actively attempting to deceive the national audience. A small but perfect encapsulation of what is happening on a far broader scale with every piece of information the MSM is pushing about the conflict.

Posted by: Brannagyn | Jun 11 2023 1:42 utc | 296

Melaleuca @277. As a ‘light’ touch I have just watched Alex Christoforou’s vlog. I absolutely love his imaginary conversations between Trudeau and Scholz last year which he turned into an end of year video. Engaging and very very humerous. Gave me a really good lift amongst all the gloom. In today’s Vlog he has an imaginary conversation between Trudeau and Zelensky about the Leopard Tanks. Again, it was brilliant and funny. His take on Trudeau is brilliant!!

Posted by: Jo Dominich | Jun 11 2023 1:48 utc | 297

Gave me a really good lift amongst all the gloom. In today’s Vlog he has an imaginary conversation between Trudeau and Zelensky about the Leopard Tanks. Again, it was brilliant and funny. His take on Trudeau is brilliant!!
Posted by: Jo Dominich | Jun 11 2023 1:48 utc | 298
Link?

Posted by: Merv Ritchie | Jun 11 2023 2:07 utc | 298

@ BroncoBilly | Jun 11 2023 1:29 utc | 294 quote
“And it could have been made by a 15 yr old.”
i’m sure yours qualifies too, lol..

Posted by: james | Jun 11 2023 2:13 utc | 299

Merv
Alex C is A2 of the A-team duo, The Duran
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1Y7ou-gk0w

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 11 2023 2:15 utc | 300

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