"Let's Try This Again!"
Yesterday I posted a picture of a Leopard 2A6 tank, 4 Bradley infantry fighting vehicles, and a Soviet era mine clearing vehicle all caught up next to each other in a minefield. There is now also better video of that scene as well as others.
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For unknown reasons the Ukrainian command later decided to add five more Bradleys to the scrap exposition:
Military Advisor @miladvisor - 18:06 UTC · Jun 9, 2023⚡️👇9x 🇺🇸M2 Bradley,🇩🇪Leopard 2A6, armoured recovery vehicle lost by Ukrainian forces.
video
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It is the same Leopard tank in the same position. I believe that the 'armoured recovery vehicle' @miladvisor mentions is an incorrect identification of the mine clearing vehicle that can also be seen in the previous picture.
All of those vehicles seem to have some mobility damage, i.e. they lost a track or two due to mine explosions. One of the added Bradleys seems to be on fire. Then its neighboring Bradley decides to also burn and explodes.
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Someone had sent half a company into a minefield where it was damaged and stopped. He then sent the second half of the company to the same place where it met the same fate.
"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results." (No, that is not an Einstein quote.)
Here is a first person view video from the Ukrainian side of what, I believe, is another group of four Bradleys in a minefield. Finally someone throws smoke grenades so some of the soldiers involved can be evacuated.
Simplicitus tries to put some rationality cover over the Ukrainian decision to attack the strongest defense position of the Russian forces:
This is all to say that Ukraine has almost no time left to make a big splash. They have no option apart from gaining one final big flashy triumph they can hail as a victory to be sold to their souring Western audience, whose support is slowly drying up, and who’s getting ready to throw in the towel.And the only way for Ukraine to get such a huge and relatively ‘fast’ triumph is by severing the Crimean landbridge. It’s the only objective in the entire conflict where Ukraine can deal one big deathblow to Russia’s jugular in a very proportionately small amount of moves. No other possible combination of captures or assaults in Donbass can have such an effect.
I find that hard to accept. One attacks where one has the highest chance of success, not where some foreign political calender tells one to go. How that is then (over-)sold to the 'western' public is a completely different question.
Throughout the last night the 47th brigade of the Ukrainian armed forces tried to attack the Russian lines.The 47th is supposed to be elite, as it was trained and armed by NATO countries.
Two columns of the brigade were hit and stopped before they could reach the line of contact. What was then left to attack failed to break through.
Posted by b on June 10, 2023 at 13:42 UTC | Permalink
next page »these brigades only had a few brigades to train on these vehicles. they should have delayed this offensive to june 2024 to give them enough time, however it's possible that the West isn't certain Ukraine can survive until then.
Posted by: abel | Jun 10 2023 13:51 utc | 2
https://warroom.armywarcollege.edu/articles/race-to-the-swift/
Blast from the paat -- or the future?
Posted by: DilNir | Jun 10 2023 13:51 utc | 3
Posted by: DilNir | Jun 10 2023 13:53 utc | 4
The west, particularly Germany, UK, and the US own this debacle.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 10 2023 13:56 utc | 5
The war being between Russia and the US plus its NATO vassals, this militarily irrational move has its own rationality in the wider scheme of things. Poor Ukrainians...
Posted by: robespyros | Jun 10 2023 14:04 utc | 6
This site is a case study in the effectiveness of propaganda.
Posted by: Longhorn | Jun 10 2023 14:04 utc | 7
... and the US own this debacle.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 10 2023 13:56 utc | 5
---
Sure. At question is, "can they find a bagholder"?
Posted by: too scents | Jun 10 2023 14:06 utc | 8
Posted by: abel | Jun 10 2023 13:51 utc | 2
sure, but Biden has an election to win.
Posted by: pretzelattack | Jun 10 2023 14:09 utc | 9
For unknown reasons the Ukrainian command later decided to add five more Bradleys to the exposition:It seems to me the reasons are rather well explained by Simplicius The Thinker
Anatomy of a NATO-Planned, Trained, and Armed Disaster
Mine-clearing vehicles crear a narrow path that all following tanks etc. must follow. The first vehicle is hit by helicopter fire, and the following tanks IFV etc. must either reverse, wait or go around the destroyed tank hit by helicopter. It turns out the mine fields are so dense that trying to go around results in more losses. This pattern repeats itself until you have a large pile-up.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 14:11 utc | 10
Both sides do this, destroyed vehicles make a good shield, they also confuse target choice on fire and forget systems. They can also draw fire for counter battery response. There is not many options out there.
Posted by: OohCanada | Jun 10 2023 14:11 utc | 11
Posted by: Longhorn | Jun 10 2023 14:04 utc | 7
This site is a case study in the effectiveness of propaganda.
You're a case study in the effectiveness of propaganda.
Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 10 2023 14:11 utc | 12
Posted by: abel | Jun 10 2023 13:51 utc | 2
they should have delayed this offensive to june 2024 to give them enough time, however it's possible that the West isn't certain Ukraine can survive until then
Some may be wondering if they can survive June 2023.
Posted by: SwissArmyMan | Jun 10 2023 14:16 utc | 13
What Simplicius might be trying to say is US backed former state of Ukraine needs to complete a "hail mary" pass. There's no time left on the clock.
Posted by: chunga | Jun 10 2023 14:19 utc | 14
Meanwhile the screeching of the propagandists and the twitter hordes reaches a cacophony in their desperate attempt to shut reality out. Our resident denialist at 7, cannot believe his own lying eyes.
Well genius what is today's propaganda to you is tomorrow's mainstream factual acknowledgements. The counteroffensive is having the shit kicked right out of it, and all my prognostications were right while yours are like the fart that birthed you into this world. Runny, hot and devoid of substance.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 10 2023 14:21 utc | 15
Posted by: Longhorn | Jun 10 2023 14:04 utc | 7
This site is a case study in the effectiveness of propaganda.
Did you comment likewise on pro-Ukrainian websites when they were crowing that the pictures from Ugledar showed the total incompetence of the the Russian army ? I suspect not.
Posted by: OnceWere | Jun 10 2023 14:23 utc | 16
Every one talks about the prevalence of propaganda in this war, as something not seen before. The interesting thing is that most commentators, even those who recognize propaganda, somehow ascribe the lies told by Western politicians and media as credulous and uncritical repeating of Ukraine propaganda machine. It is interesting because all such claims are in themselves Western media propaganda.
To believe that a poor country which was completely taken over by Western managers in 2014, developed a powerful propaganda machine with unbounded influence over Western media and political domains all by itself is unbelievable. All one has to do in order to dismiss all such claims is review Western propaganda during bombing campaign of Serbia in 1999, preparations of wars against Iraq in 2003 and against Libya in 2011. Who was feeding the outrageous lies to Western media and politicians then?
To ascribe agency to Ukrainian president, its government and armed forces, all of whom are on the payroll of Western governments, is to fall for Western propaganda and that somehow escapes the commentators including those we all admire. To denounce the West as the sole managers of this war is perhaps a step too far for many.
Posted by: Pagan | Jun 10 2023 14:25 utc | 17
thanks b..
the death and mayhem continue.. i am not sure when the west cease and desist.. germany in particular seems quite rabid on the political level in pushing for this ongoing continuation.. i thought the usa-uk were bad..
Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 14:28 utc | 18
@Norwegian
I understand Simplicitius explanation for a bunch up. But here we have two separate groups. The second group had to know that there was no way through that immediate area but still went there.
There were some reports that they had sent some vehicles (Bradleys?) to recover damaged Bradley vehicles, in order for Russia not be able to use them for propaganda purposes, or potentially capture them. The end result was some more damaged Bradley vehicles which has made it a lost cause.
This is very reminiscent to the sequence of events during May 2022 Snake island landing operations. It came in several (2-3 waves), among the first were some Nato spec force officers supposed to coordinate further landings on the island. Supposedly they were out of contact and Nato demanded Ukraine try to rescue them, resulting more failed attempted landing waves.
https://twitter.com/Trollstoy88/status/1667537611441807360
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 10 2023 14:30 utc | 20
This site is a case study in the effectiveness of propaganda.
Due to your laconic vagueness, I can't be sure, but my guess is that your confusion is matched only by your ambiguity.
Posted by: Jack Gordon | Jun 10 2023 14:30 utc | 21
THE NEW NARRATIVE?:
The narrative has been that the USA and its vassal organization, NATO, must support Ukraine so the AFU (Army Forces of Ukraine) can fight off the Russians and take back their soveign territory.
The lastest Ukrainian offensive has proven to be a failure so far and looks to be going no where. With Ukraine not being able to succeed, the narrative will quickly change from more direct support for Ukraine to more direct NATO attacks upon the Russian Federation both in Ukraine and within the current borders of Russia and its allies like Belarus.
It is of interest that the fate of Ukraine's new offensive will be certain before NATO's Vilnius Summit on July 11 and July 12. It could be certain before NATO's "Air Defender 23" exercise is over June 23th.
I suspect these NATO events and associated dates are coordinated to conveniently incorporate major NATO escalations against Russia after the current Ukrainian offensive is deemed as a "failure".
Basically, Ukraine will no longer be used as the West's sole proxy for attacking Russia. The USA and NATO will step up to the escalation and start engaging in direct attacks against Russia.
ZELENSKY:
I don't know how Zelensky will fare within the new narrative.
Perhaps, he will be needed in the new script to provide empathy for the Ukrainian cause. With him gone, there would be no established focal point to promote the justification for the new wave of direct NATO attacks against Russia that most likely have already been planned.
On the other hand, the taking out of Zelensky would provoke more public enragement against Russia and hence provide more public justification for NATO's coming direct attacks upon the Russian Federation. If Zelensky is taken out, for sure the Russian Federation will be blamed regardless who really took him out.
WHERE IT IT HEADING?
When NATO starts to directly attack Russia, no doubt, there will be a Russian response.
From here, Russia knows that as long as the USA is around that there will be no peace within its borders. This will become painfully obvious as NATO starts to directly attack Russia with more intensity. Eventually, Putin will directly launch against the USA.
When the bear launches against the USA, the American empire will cease to exist within one hour.
WHEN?
The nuclear scenario could play out very soon. I don't think we are talking years. Most likely only months or maybe just weeks away.
PERSONALLY
I am better off if the end of the USA could wait longer. So, I am hoping for Ukraine and the USA and NATO to hold on as long as possible in the Donbas and Zaporizhzhia. However, these matters are in the hands of the Lord. He knows always knows best. Everything will work out as is written by the prophets.
Posted by: young | Jun 10 2023 14:31 utc | 22
It does somewhat boggle the mind that the Ukrainians continue to fight so poorly, pouring men and machines into areas where they just get destroyed. But they have been doing just this since the beginning, so it's very much in character for them.
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jun 10 2023 14:37 utc | 23
@young | Jun 10 2023 14:31 utc | 22
Your fear mongering is transparent. No reason to repeatedly 'predict' nuclear scenario.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 14:38 utc | 24
no idea
Air Defender 2023 will start Monday.
May be with a few surprises up its sleeves.
("Oops, your bridg is gone. Sorry ´bout that")
I hope not.
After all it was planned since 2018.
But anything is imagineable.
And as "b" pointed out quoting Yves Smith in winter, real nature of events still doesn´t matter to policy in the West.
As does not the people´s opinion in the West as long as the media is backing the war.
This will much more depend on domestic economy which in itself evolves much less around the truth about the Ukrainian front.
So issues that are detached in cause by nature (life at home in the West / life at the front) - for now - are artifically re-connected by creating a policy hurraj. Like a para-reality. As we have seen for 18 months now.
Which creates a complete folly of un-logic to the outside, to the sane observer. But that observer does not matter, yet.
And then there is Taiwan to be prepared and elections to be won.
Elections which are still far off, in fact as long as this war has already been dragging on. Until then, let Ukrainians die.
(Like in boxing: the majority of fights is rigged because the game needs spectacle to exist and to generate revenue. The fact the underdog most likely will loose won´t alter betting habits)
Posted by: AG | Jun 10 2023 14:38 utc | 25
An Unwinnable War - Washington Needs an Endgame in Ukraine (Foreign Affairs article by Samuel Charap, June 5, 2023)
As you know RAND has been changing the tone from unconditional support to avoiding a long war. The linked article is an example of how close we are. It seems obvious that the Ukrainian war effort is insufficient to get anywhere the stated goals, so it is time to pull out. This is, as all of you know, good old US style, so nobody should be surprised. Okay, the alternative would be WW3 but despite some happy doomers on this forum, I think that'd happen by accident, not on purpose. Too many important people have too much to lose.
Just three quotes from the Foreign Affairs article:
But it is now time that the United States develop a vision for how the war ends. Fifteen months of fighting has made clear that neither side has the capacity—even with external help—to achieve a decisive military victory over the other.I actually believe that one side can achieve a decisive military victory over the other, and that's why stalling becomes really urgent now.
This one is for your entertainment, no comment needed:
And Russia would have suffered another blow to its military capabilities and global prestige, further raising the costs of what has been a strategic catastrophe for Moscow.
Here's what the author thinks should happen now:
...the United States should begin informal discussions with Ukraine and among allies in the G-7 and NATO about the endgame.In parallel, the United States should consider establishing a regular channel of communication regarding the war that includes Ukraine, U.S. allies, and Russia.
I think it will be much more ignominious for the West. I don't see a reason why Moscow should agree to anything except perhaps for, as I said before, pressure by non-Western countries.
Posted by: Konami | Jun 10 2023 14:38 utc | 26
Of course, with so much propaganda out there, I have no real idea what is going on. But: in the past the Ukrainians/Western Powers have been vicious and inventive and effective. Maybe they have all suddenly gone stupid - or maybe not.
One notes that in Kherson, Ukrainian direct assaults failed - but they had so degraded Russian logistics that the Russians had to withdraw without a fight.
Sure, Russia has a 10:1 artillery advantage - and needs 10 times as much logistics. Russia may well have smashed the initial Ukrainian assaults, but they have used up a lot of ammunition, and allowed the westerners to identify all their arms depots and logistics hubs. How badly have the Ukrainians hit the Russian logistics? Are they using missiles to saturate the Russian backfield with remote mines, rendering resupply difficult/impossible?
I am surprised though that the westerners haven't taken out the Kerch Bridge.
The real battle may not be on the frontlines, but in the Russian rear. I don't think we will really know the outcome of this battle for a few weeks yet. It's not over until it's over.
Posted by: TG | Jun 10 2023 14:40 utc | 27
Of course this view is absolutely correct:
"This is all to say that Ukraine has almost no time left to make a big splash. They have no option apart from gaining one final big flashy triumph they can hail as a victory to be sold to their souring Western audience, whose support is slowly drying up, and who’s getting ready to throw in the towel.
And the only way for Ukraine to get such a huge and relatively ‘fast’ triumph is by severing the Crimean landbridge. It’s the only objective in the entire conflict where Ukraine can deal one big deathblow to Russia’s jugular in a very proportionately small amount of moves. No other possible combination of captures or assaults in Donbass can have such an effect."
Posted by: Elmagnostic | Jun 10 2023 14:40 utc | 28
The reality is the leadership of the West, both civilian and military, is primarily composed of spineless and truly lazy individuals who never really had to work for anything. Their capability to process information, their cognitive abilities, are truly fucking lacking. We are led by liars and mendicants who believe since it's so easy to deceive the majority that everyone is as stupid as they are. They are starting to realize perhaps now how fucked they really are.
Remember when competence and intelligence was a prerequisite for government? Neither do I. We are getting sleepwalked into the apocalypse by carnival barkers. The boys they pretend are military men trained on video games and Hollywood, the only real world experiece involves fighting militas in open desert..
Meanwhile a truly atrocious loss of life is occurring on the endless Cuman steppe. Subutai would recognize the foolishness of this offensive, as the deluded march on iron horses in straight, predictable lines to their deaths.
Sullivan, Nuland and the rest should face a war crimes tribunal, as a start.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 10 2023 14:40 utc | 29
"It does somewhat boggle the mind that the Ukrainians continue to fight so poorly, pouring men and machines into areas where they just get destroyed. But they have been doing just this since the beginning, so it's very much in character for them."
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jun 10 2023 14:37 utc | 23
So, it is easier to believe that Ukrainians are just stupid lemmings than that they are directed to act in this way by someone who could not care less about casualties and destruction as long as some, even minimal, damage can be inflicted on Russia?
Posted by: Pagan | Jun 10 2023 14:42 utc | 30
It does look as though the Ukranazis are throwing in their reserves, if the reports that three times I huh the earlier forces are attacking are correct. This would mean that they will have less and less left to exploit any breakthrough even should one be achieved. It also indicates that for whatever reason the nazis have decided Zaporozhye is the primary axis of advance, though literally anywhere else would be better.
There's this hypothesis some are advancing that the West ordered this suicide offensive in order for it to be decisively defeated so as to find an excuse to intervene directly. I think that's nonsense. The West could just declare that "to free Ukrainian troops to fight" they're nonviolent occupying Ukraine (as they did in South Vietnam). Treating the world to the sight of cremated Leopards and Bradleys doesn't fit into the military industrial complex' plans at all.
I do believe it's the West that ordered this, and the most likely reason is that Bidet (or rather his owners) is desperate to show some kind of "victory" before the 1½ year long Amerikastani presidential circus kicks off in earnest. If the nazis can't show a victory this summer, then it's in Bidet's interests to pretend Ukranazistan never existed. He'll need a few weeks or maybe months for the word "Ukraine" to disappear from what passes for brains in the people stupid enough to vote for him.
Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 10 2023 14:44 utc | 31
They have given the RFA sooooooooo much time to prepare for pretty much any kind of offensive from the enemy. Plus Russia has air superiority which is huge. How do you go on an offensive without air support? Like I have said before plus someone already mentioned today, they're throwing Hail Mary passes hoping for a miracle. It's a complete suicide mission and I feel bad for the Ukranian soldiers that were picked off the streets and forced into this mess. Watching the western tanks and armored vehicles burn is a beautiful sight. Hope they showcase a few trophies on Red Square.
Posted by: Watzov | Jun 10 2023 14:45 utc | 32
I didn’t realise the depth of the contempt MBS feels for blinken and his cronies until I saw this picture of their meeting a couple of days ago. See if you can spot why? It took me a few moments, I will admit.
Posted by: Oh | Jun 10 2023 14:45 utc | 33
Link to post above
http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2023/06/wow-whats-missing.html
Posted by: Oh | Jun 10 2023 14:46 utc | 34
Time to send in the Pollacks and Vimirati after Vilnius and a whatever the next big, fat false flag the UK is cooking up.
Posted by: casey | Jun 10 2023 14:47 utc | 35
30. We all know Maerica is behind this cowards cats paw of a war. And that Maerica will bravely fight to the last Ukrainian. And Pole. And ..insert your vassal country here. Maerica has command control over Ukraine. Not that any Maerican official will acknowledge that.
What's terrifying is how they clearly are in pure improvisation mode. There is no plan, other than they have no plan to change course. These people are perhaps the biggest criminals in the history of our species ..worse, they are deeply stupid.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 10 2023 14:47 utc | 36
@20 addendum: some references to Snake/Zmeiny island events:
When Ukraine attempted to retake Snake Island, the Russian Armed Forces liquidated more than 50 servicemen of the elite units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, Shoigu said. https://t.me/NewResistance/9015Three scouts from Sevastopol were killed during the defense of 🔺Snake Island.
Dmitrij Sergejević Ostrovski, was a reconnaissance sniper (diver) of a special purpose reconnaissance group of the reconnaissance company of the military unit of the Black Sea Fleet.
Soldier Nikita Sergeyevich Maksimenko - sniper of the special purpose reconnaissance group of the Black Sea Fleet military unit reconnaissance company.
Soldier Dmitry Yuryevich Deev - radio telegraphist of the combat unit of communication, middle reconnaissance ship Equator Division (reconnaissance ships of the military unit of the Black Sea Fleet).
The Sevastopol media that reported this news did not report the circumstances under which these soldiers died. It is possible that they were also the victims of the last bombing of the island by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
#RuskiLubici #FrontUkraine #UkraineWar #Russia #Ukraine🇷🇺🇺🇦⚡️The first footage of the liquidated Ukrainian special forces on Snake Island.
https://t.me/Zornkrieger/2425https://southfront.org/russian-forces-back-on-zmeiny-island-reinforce-their-positions-photos-video/
Battle for Snake island. May 8▪️Kiev made another attempt. Under the cover of a Mi-24 helicopter, 3 Mi-8 helicopters with special forces on board advanced to the island. In one of the Mi-8s there was the coordinator of the landing of units - the Deputy Commander of the Naval Forces of the Ukraine - Colonel Igor Bedzai;
▪️The entire helicopter group, was destroyed by Russian Aerospace Forces. The pilots, the landing force and the coordinator of the operation were killed.
▪️Another 6 helicopters for the landing of the second wave were in full readiness at a military airfield in the Odessa region. The airfield was hit by high-precision weapons, which destroyed 6 Ukrainian Mi-8 and Mi-24 helicopters;
▪️Within two days, Russia destroyed 30 Ukrainian UAVs in the area of Snake Island, including 9 "Bayraktar-TB2";
▪️The action invented by the West led to the senseless death of more than 50 Ukrainian militants of elite units of Ukraine, the loss of 4 aircraft, 10 helicopters, 3 boats and 30 UAVs;
https://t.me/NovichokRossiya/1201
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 10 2023 14:48 utc | 37
Dead battles, like dead generals, hold the military mind in their dead grip.
-- Barbara Tuchman “Guns of August”
The unwillingness of Generals to admit the futility of massed attacks into the sort of firepower that is what distinguishes modern warfare has been something to behold for around 200 years now.
I suppose their "manhood" is at stake. And I suppose it is the politicians really who must be behind this sort of thing.
Where is Zaluzhny anyway?
Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 10 2023 14:50 utc | 38
27. remotely layed mines, such a wunderwaffen...non dug in mines air dropped by radar detectable munitions on predictable locations and not buried or otherwise camouflaged. The Russians could never suspect that and certainly won't protect their logistics convoys with minesweeper tactics, I mean they're dumb and bad right?
So basically Ukraine can win with terrorism, is your thesis? Blowing the Kerch bridge might really piss of Russua but I isn't going to win the war. Nor is bombing civilian evacuation points. The British, NATO, Maericans and West generally have covered themselves in dishonor with the whole world watching.
I said months ago and repeat now, Ukraine has lost. Nothing ..even direct NATO intervention, can change this. Only the scale of destruction and death is variable.
Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 10 2023 14:58 utc | 39
@33
bidet’ (aka bribe him) emissary blinken don’t care much for what that missing flag stood for anyway
Posted by: paddy | Jun 10 2023 15:03 utc | 41
Michael Rubin, a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, just proposed giving the Ukraine tactical nukes (as a “deterrent”). I’d post his tweet, but Twitter is slow.
So much for not worry about things going nuclear. The US is run by madmen. (I include Nuland.)
Posted by: Sentient | Jun 10 2023 15:03 utc | 42
Posted by: TG | Jun 10 2023 14:40 utc | 27
How badly have the Ukrainians hit the Russian logistics? Are they using missiles to saturate the Russian backfield with remote mines, rendering resupply difficult/impossible ?
Given what's known of the resources available to each side, there's really no reason to assume that it isn't Russia rather than Ukraine that destroys a greater proportion of supplies moving up to the front line. If I had to guess I would say that neither side is so successful at conducting strikes behind the lines that that alone is a decisive factor.
Posted by: OnceWere | Jun 10 2023 15:05 utc | 43
Below is the current Reuters example of the propaganda win of Ukraine
Ukraine's army reports new gains against Russian forces near Bakhmut
The advance is the latest in a series of similar gains reported this week by Kyiv
Posted by: psychohistorian | Jun 10 2023 15:05 utc | 44
“In the coming days, you’re going to see a pretty impressive display of power by the Ukrainians.”
- Lindsey Graham, May 26, 2023
Not really...
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 15:06 utc | 45
@Bemildred | Jun 10 2023 14:50 utc | 38
Where is Zaluzhny anyway?I think he spends time with Bodanov.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 15:11 utc | 46
@ young 22
The people running this chaos in Ukraine are insane Atlantacists in Britain who want to build Empire2 and insane zionists in the US who want to build Zion2. The rest of the sane world doesn't necessarily have to be nuked by the sane Putin in order for the nutters to be destroyed which is the endgame you envisage.
All that needs to happen is for the nutters to be taken to safe places with padded cells in white straitjackets and kept but of action .
When sanity is restored in the US, our poodle Atlantacists in Britain will flick the flecks of Nazism off their obsequious faces and allow sanity in Europe once again to prevail.
Ukraine is a psyops , same as Libya and Syria, efficiently conducted to to stress out the young. If you had been a Thatcher survivor like my generation, you would understand the game.
Posted by: Giyane | Jun 10 2023 15:14 utc | 47
young @ 22
The lastest Ukrainian offensive has proven to be a failure so far and looks to be going no where. With Ukraine not being able to succeed, the narrative will quickly change from more direct support for Ukraine to more direct NATO attacks upon the Russian Federation both in Ukraine and within the current borders of Russia and its allies like Belarus.
It sounds like some NATO nations are planning to send some elements directly into battle in the near future. That move sounds like Ukraine is nearing exhastion and needs that input of men and material badly.
A move like that will only end in the same result. If NATO wants this territory it would have to sweep the skys of all Russian aviation, take out all the Russian air defenses, and wipe out their manufacturing base as well as their logistic hubs in similar fashion to the World War ll conflict. Even then it is going to be a tough slog for them.
In that attempt who is to say another nation like China backs Russia to the hilt by sending its forces into the struggle in large numbers? The Anglo American NATO deal cultists will end this when they have enough bodies piled up to make their god happy. This is an excersice in ancient human sacrifice to the god they worship.
They are all completely mad and serving a spiritual power we seen not and a group of peole we do not recognize that are in human form. They must have the resources of this region for their future plans. They need a new group of serfs to serve on their new colonies they plan to open up in Russia. Without it their 500 year reign of terror on the planet is in jeopardy.
Posted by: circumspect | Jun 10 2023 15:17 utc | 48
I think he spends time with Bodanov.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 15:11 utc | 46
There you go, catching up with the Skripals on current events.
I suppose we could take these "attacks" as an indication he is not involved, out of action?
Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 10 2023 15:17 utc | 49
Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau arrives in Kiev on an unannounced visitThis was reported by the CBC television company. The Canadian prime minister intends to meet Zelensky during his visit.
He is there to tell Zelensky to try again...
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 15:19 utc | 50
@Bemildred | Jun 10 2023 15:17 utc | 49
I suppose we could take these "attacks" as an indication he is not involved, out of action?I believe he was seen as competent, and these attacks are not. So I agree.
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 15:23 utc | 51
26
As you know RAND has been changing the tone from unconditional support to avoiding a long war. The linked article is an example of how close we are.”
On the contrary, RAND and Charap have been writing in precisely this vein since before the war started, to the intense irritation of the Ukrainians and their Western allies. See, eg, https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/01/21/weapons-ukraine-russia-invasion-military/
Posted by: Zinjanthropus | Jun 10 2023 15:25 utc | 52
At some point the best prophylaxis against final NATO escalation into direct conflict would be a statement from China to the effect that if NATO attacks Russian forces, China will throw its support behind Russia.
This will at least end the illusion in Europe that they can somehow outlast Russia, making the enlistment of EU/NATO forces as the next proxies a much harder sell.
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 10 2023 15:26 utc | 53
I find that hard to accept. One attacks where one has the highest chance of success, not where some foreign political calender tells one to go. How that is then (over-)sold to the 'western' public is a completely different question.
Two wars and I still struggle for the best term.
The Real war where Ukrainians die in huge numbers and western equipment repeatedly fails.
The Perceived or Presented war where Ukraine will win, Russians die in numbers explained away largely as Russian stupidity.
Here is the Magic. Overton's Window is based on The Perceived War, not the real one.
That allows Western leaders to urge more Ukrainians on to their deaths, inflate the impact of Western arms, get through elections.
It is a Ponzi scheme with Ukrainian dead bodies instead of cash investments.
Will the Western world ever figure this out - history tells us no. There are very few reality moments.
Does the rest of the world know? 100%. They are openly laughing at USA right now.
Posted by: Mickey Droy | Jun 10 2023 15:29 utc | 54
Videos:
AD trying to cope with Geran drones over Odessa
https://t.me/DDGeopolitics/68242
This looks like an "arabian wedding" to me
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 15:31 utc | 55
Posted by: Intelligent Dasein | Jun 10 2023 14:37 utc | 23
Posted by: Pagan | Jun 10 2023 14:42 utc | 30
"It does somewhat boggle the mind that the Ukrainians continue to fight so poorly, pouring men and machines into areas where they just get destroyed. But they have been doing just this since the beginning, so it's very much in character for them."
Emphasis added.
The actual beginning commenced with the post coup ATO of 2014. The UAF, the largest military in Europe at that time, was soundly defeated not once, but twice, by the members of ad hoc DNR and LPR militias. These militias were largely self-equipped with arms captured from the UAF and/or arms brought to them by UAF units which defected to the rebels.
The UAF ATO was so poorly led that first Minsk 1 and then Minsk 2 were initiated in the attempt to save the UAF from further destruction and to prevent the rebel forces from taking Mariopul and / or creating a "land bridge" to Crimea.
As both Hollande and Merkel have since revealed, the intent of both Minsk Accords was to buy time for the re-arming and re-equipping of the UAF to permit a successful UAF prosecution of the conflict at a later date.
To put it bluntly, the UkroReich has been preparing for today's battle for 9 years. The UkroReich has been fully supported by every NATO member state apart from Hungary, the UkroReich has had the benefit of NATO standard training delivered by France, UK, Canada, US, Poland and others, showered with billions in cash transfers, and vast stores of NATO armour and personnel equipment. The consequence of all this military largesse may be viewed in the images posted by b where it is derided as "propaganda."
Hard reality suggests the NATO nations need to contemplate the outcome of any NATO/Russia engagement. Do they truly believe NATO doctrine and equipment can prevail in such a conflict?
Posted by: Sushi | Jun 10 2023 15:33 utc | 56
paddy #41....to explain why king of KSA deal with- blinken- this way ..go to realrawnews.com -regard blinken "visit" better say attempt visit CHINA....
james | Jun 10 2023 14:28 utc | 18
The Germans believe what the media tell them, and they don't even ask the obvious questions, such as who destroyed NS2. On February 24th of 2022 it was decided once and for all that Putin is evil, in the following weeks, that Ukraine must (and will eventually) win. The outcome in Bakhmut didn't make the prime time TV news. There are no signs that the tide is turning, look at the current Emnid polls of June 10th:
CDU (opposition) 27%
SPD (Scholz) 20%
AfD (Russian friendly) 18%
Grüne (belligerent) 15%
FDP (gov. coalition) 7%
Die Linke (leftist) 5%
The numbers are (within +-1%) the same as in the 2021 Bundestag elections. AfD is the only party who doesn't share the standard narrative. There are those (foreigners) who predict a public uprising or a downfall of Scholz, pointing to other polls that seem to indicate that a majority is against continuing this war, but even these numbers are less than impressive. Some say the tide would turn if we were to experience a real shortage of essential things (food, water, electricity, internet).
Posted by: grunzt | Jun 10 2023 15:42 utc | 58
This site is a case study in the effectiveness of propaganda.Posted by: Longhorn | Jun 10 2023 14:04 utc | 7
Find a geopolitical website that isn't.
Posted by: Ghost of Bernays | Jun 10 2023 15:45 utc | 59
It seems crazy to contemplate, but I wonder if, as we reach the final step in escalation before full conflict with NATO, the Russian strategic braintrust considers a demonstration strike--a kind of duel, as it were--announced in a live press conference by Putin, with US military on the line.
Russia announces it will send a single, *conventional* missile to a designated target--e.g., CIA HQ in Langley--which US is free to evacuate and to attempt to intercept. Russia will accept a single *conventional* missile sent in return, within a 24-hour period, on the condition that the target is publicly declared.
The purpose would be to strip the warhawks:
* of the illusion that Russia would not dare to strike US directly.
* of the illusion that Russia *cannot* strike the US directly.
* of the illusion that the US can intercept a Russian strike, even one pre-declared.
* of the illusion that Russia *cannot* intercept a US strike.
* of the illusion, foisted on the general public of the West, that we are not one second from midnight.
At least if war is the next step, we will not have sleep-walked into it, but rather entered it freed of at least these illusions.
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 10 2023 15:45 utc | 60
This is just pure hubris on the part of the West. They truly believed their own bs that the Russian army was weak and unable to put up any resistance (shovels, out of ammo, scared conscripts etc.).
Here's one of my favorites: "Ukraine’s Leopard 1 Tanks Could Arrive Just In Time to Help the Ukrainian National Guard Mop Up Russian Stragglers"
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2023/05/05/ukraines-leopard-1-tanks-could-arrive-just-in-time-to-help-the-ukrainian-national-guard-mop-up-russian-stragglers/?sh=59dcc5313389
Observers often assume this is just propaganda but it appears that this way of thinking goes all the way to the top. And men are dying for it...
Posted by: Tom Ernest Weiss | Jun 10 2023 15:51 utc | 61
I'm looking forward to the mirth and merriment which will ensue if US-NATO uses its Air Defense 2023 pantomime as a launch-pad for inflicting pain on Russia.
It's easy to 'forget' that NATO's Girlie Men have never attacked an entity which hadn't been tricked into partially disarming.
Iraq - disarmed.
Libya - disarmed.
Syria - partially disarmed.
Russia is a bridge too far for the Girly Men because Russia can shoot back FROM DOZENS OF LOCATIONS INSIDE AND OUTSIDE RUSSIA.
The bright YELLOW risk-averse canary known as NATO won't risk the public humiliation of an unduly harsh Russian response to NATO uppity-ness.
Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 10 2023 15:52 utc | 62
Surely that little fuckwit Trudeau is of an age when he can get into uniform and show his Ukie chums how to do it?
Boris is too obese (and a chicken shit) but Trudea?
Posted by: Vragtes | Jun 10 2023 15:54 utc | 63
Question;
The clobber reports suggest NATO is making attacks with rather small units ( Company or smaller ). I‘m really confused here. NATO operational doctrine used to be a short extreme intense bombardment on a very narrow front and then massed Armour supported by IFVs, Attack Helos. Therefore, one would expect to see reports of 300 MBTs on a front of maybe 15-20km wide.
We ain‘t seeing this level of intensity - that leads me to believe NATO is making probing attacks and the real counter-offensive will follow.
Disagree ? Agree ?
Posted by: Exile | Jun 10 2023 15:56 utc | 64
"... Do they truly believe NATO doctrine and equipment can prevail in such a conflict?"
Posted by: Sushi | Jun 10 2023 15:33 utc | 56
I do not think the intention is to prevail, unless the Europeans can be convinced to go at it alone and have their countries thoroughly destroyed, which would put the US in a position similar to post WWII. However this scenario seems to be too fanciful. The US does not need the EU countries destroyed, they need them completely subjugated, divorced from the rest of the world and completely dependent on the US.
Since the beginning of time, the recipe for domination has been "divide et impera." when the Europeans began to be too pally with Russia and becoming more dependent on that relationship, something had to be done. Poison these relationships with Russia by financing corrupt EU elites to bark and spout inanities, conduct provocations and other unfriendly activities and the relationship will be spoiled for decades. Are the actions of Baltic poodles, Finland, Poland and others reasonable? Supposedly they fear Russia. If one fears someone much stronger does one provokes and insults them incessantly?
Posted by: Pagan | Jun 10 2023 15:57 utc | 65
[Trudeau in Kiev]That's an option. But he may also have been sent to tell Zelensky the game is over. We will find out soon enough.He is there to tell Zelensky to try again...
Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 15:19 utc | 50
Posted by: Konami | Jun 10 2023 15:59 utc | 66
Posted by: Paul Damascene | Jun 10 2023 15:26 utc | 53
The web of lies is so thick there will be no awakening. According to the western mwdia, fighting is still going on in Bakhmut, the Ukies are attacking towns in Russia and China knows Russia is losing, which the Russian propaganda chief knows and wants to negotiate peace. I have seen all of this in the media.
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 10 2023 16:00 utc | 67
Oh no. 34
They are playing with them, because the US insulted them.
Posted by: ThusspakeZarathustra | Jun 10 2023 16:00 utc | 68
Posted by: Longhorn | Jun 10 2023 14:04 utc | 7
Hmm, the NATO-armed UFA looks like Wile. E. Coyote roadkill, in one of those "Looney Tune" episodes. Do you any have more of those magic mushrooms you're taking?
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 10 2023 16:01 utc | 69
"Disagree ? Agree ?
Posted by: Exile | Jun 10 2023 15:56 utc | 64"
I agree. They are waiting for the NATO aerial support in two days.
@ Norwegian | Jun 10 2023 15:19 utc | 50
i guess trudeaus handlers think they can get more political votes making this trip... the number of people of ukrainian heritage in canada leads them to believe this... at present canada is much like germany in supporting this insane war... only one candidate who got 5 % of the federal vote last time - maxine bernier - was advocating for canada out of nato.. i am of course voting for him!
@ Paul Damascene | Jun 10 2023 15:26 utc | 53 / 60
it seems to be coming down to that, doesn't it?? next stop nato countries attacking russia.. it is already happening basically, but this would be the next step... i am sure russia is aware of this... those madmen directing nato and friends have no sense of shame or recognition of their malignant designs.. clearly cooler heads are not prevailing in the west..
@ grunzt | Jun 10 2023 15:42 utc | 58
thanks grunzt.. i appreciate hearing your perspective and watch for your posts here at moa.. i am saddened to hear all this.. it is much the same in canada.. the mass propaganda and omission of facts is an effective tool for coming the sheeple ensnared..
Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 16:08 utc | 71
Surely that little fuckwit Trudeau is of an age when he can get into uniform and show his Ukie chums how to do it? Boris is too obese (and a chicken shit) but Trudea?Posted by: Vragtes | Jun 10 2023 15:54 utc | 63
His daddy sat out WW2. Justine will sit out WW3.
Freeland is a NATO-Nazi propagandist, just like her grandfather.
Posted by: Ghost of Bernays | Jun 10 2023 16:09 utc | 72
@ Ghost of Bernays | Jun 10 2023 16:09 utc | 72
ditto that... freeland can put the uniform on and wrap herself in the oun flag, sick person that she is..
Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 16:10 utc | 74
Posted by: Exile | Jun 10 2023 15:56 utc | 64
We ain‘t seeing this level of intensity - that leads me to believe NATO is making probing attacks and the real counter-offensive will follow.
Disagree ? Agree ?
How would you move the fuel and ammunition for 300 MBTs plus ancillary armour down a salient so narrow if you don't have total air & artillery superiority ?
Posted by: OnceWere | Jun 10 2023 16:10 utc | 75
I try to understand the psychology of someone who's pro-Russian (the majority in this forum, in my opinion) but convinced that NATO/Poland/USA will attack Russia. If we agree that Russia is winning the war in Ukrainian and prepared for anything NATO can throw at them then why do you assume that NATO/etc. will do precisely that?
Posted by: Konami | Jun 10 2023 16:13 utc | 76
Surely that little fuckwit Trudeau is of an age when he can get into uniform and show his Ukie chums how to do it?
Boris is too obese (and a chicken shit) but Trudea?
Posted by: Vragtes | Jun 10 2023 15:54 utc | 63
Trudeau is always obedient to the father figure he has never known. A spoiled (statutory) Rapist (full fledged affair with his underaged student which the Trudeau Foundation settled the lawsuit for C$2.25 million).
Now just a name and an empty suit/brain ready to dance, sing, or embarrass himself for his narcissist addiction.
You know Ukraine is done when the USSA sends Trudeau in instead of their bumboy Boris.
Posted by: kupkee | Jun 10 2023 16:23 utc | 77
@ Konami | Jun 10 2023 16:13 utc | 76
because they are already doing this covertly?? poland is vying for head servant and stooge of the usa at this point... maybe it is an ego thing as they feel they are in direct competition with germany on this... maybe they've spent too much time listening to annie applepants and he freak husband who blurted out congrats to the usa for the nordstream destruction..
it's just another step up the ramp.. that's all.. hopefully it doesn't happen, but i wouldn't put anything past these morons and freaks..
now, for fun - you tell me why it won't happen.. thanks and for your posts here in general..
Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 16:28 utc | 78
I try to understand the psychology of someone who's pro-Russian
Posted by: Konami | Jun 10 2023 16:13 utc | 76
No you're not
Posted by: Jonathan W | Jun 10 2023 16:28 utc | 79
by the way - i am not convinced of this.. it is possible for the stupidity to stop at some point, but it is a guessing game as to when..
Posted by: james | Jun 10 2023 16:29 utc | 80
Paul Damascene | Jun 10 2023 15:45 utc | 60
(Demonstration strike, as mentioned by Putin on a press conference)
Putin seems to believe that the Western leadership is still endowed with a rest of rational thinking. He just cannot wrap his brain around the fact of how irrational they act. He should know that they are a bunch of irresponsible psychopaths who do not value human life, not even their own.
Posted by: grunzt | Jun 10 2023 16:29 utc | 81
Posted by: Exile | Jun 10 2023 15:56 utc | 64
The clobber reports suggest NATO is making attacks with rather small units ( Company or smaller ). I‘m really confused here. NATO operational doctrine used to be a short extreme intense bombardment on a very narrow front and then massed Armour supported by IFVs, Attack Helos. Therefore, one would expect to see reports of 300 MBTs on a front of maybe 15-20km wide.We ain‘t seeing this level of intensity - that leads me to believe NATO is making probing attacks and the real counter-offensive will follow.
Disagree - watch Dima's latest video, he talks about a column of 20 vehicles and 200 men being completely wiped out by artillery.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCZrTWs_1OE
Watch around 2:18 in.
That ain't no "probe."
Could Dima be wrong? Sure, but I tend to trust him. And why would NATO have the Ukrainians sacrifice thousands of men over a period of a week, in "probing attempts?" That doesn't sound like competent military leadership to me. I never have been in the military so perhaps they really are that cynical.
Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 10 2023 16:41 utc | 82
After the "flame&plonking"-war between a couple of posters in the recent past, here is a little gist I wrote to make the bar a slightly friendlier place. I do not like the blocking approach, so I thought of an alternative. This gist is meant to be plugged into TamperMonkey and will cut the last line containing the author, and paste it upfront. Let's see if this link is allowed to be published...
I tested this with Firefox, allegedly it also works with Chrome, fingers crossed. By the way, thanks to all commenters in the bar, and of course to b for this wonderful place.
Enjoy!
Posted by: TomD | Jun 10 2023 16:43 utc | 83
Posted by: Konami | Jun 10 2023 16:13 utc | 76
Why do you assume everybody here is pro-Russian? I'm pro-me and pro-my country, and this clusterfuck has cut my old age savings in half in just a couple of years, and next one those colorful Euro notes risk not being worth the paper they're printed on, after a whole life working and being frugal. I'm sick and tired of listening to those fools at the helm talk about gardens and jungles, about values and human rights and at the same time I'm supposed to forget about Yugoslavia, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Somalia, Guatemala...... just tune in the tube into today's evening news and that's the whole scope, what happened a week ago went down Winston Smith's tube. Everything they say It's so fking glaringly false that sometimes I think they're bloody geniuses to keep everybody hypnotized with their so obvious -to me anyway- lies and bs. So the matter is not being pro this or pro that, it's being rational, and reason tells me that all the criminals at the helm must go before anything gets back to some degree of normalcy, and that Russia is a far from perfect country -I’ve travelled through it extensively, not just fancy Moscow or Piter- but their leaders are way more rational, their abandoned computers with all the filth that nobody talks about are well kept, and that they take very seriously the openly announced plans of dismantling their country and ripping it off again as they did in the 90’s.
Posted by: Paco | Jun 10 2023 16:51 utc | 84
@ Paul Damascene 60
When and if NATO becomes more serious about escalation, you have a pretty good proposal. It's thinking outside the box, and making the facts very public. But we are not yet there - and a more-serious threat of sNATO esscalation may dissipate, so the proposal should stay on the shelf for now.
Posted by: JessDTruth | Jun 10 2023 16:52 utc | 85
Important information. Most of the AFU units that were in Kramatorsk are now being redeployed to Kremennaya, Artemovsk and Chasov Yar.
While everyone focused on Zaporozhye, there is still events occurring elsewhere. What does it mean in practice? Did AFU perceive success around Armetovsk they are trying to reinforce?
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 10 2023 17:00 utc | 86
I think the most interesting issue in this war is the willingness of Ukrainians to die for their country. I believe most Ukrainians believe, like other Eastern European people that the future lies with the EU and the anti-traditional, hedonistic lifestyle of the West. I think they probably view rock music, Hollywood films, gay liberation, the right to change sex, the appeal of living a virtual life is highly seductive. I don't think Russia, which may be a healthier society is very appealing, obviously. Russia is actively disliked by most of the West from California to Finland because the US Empire offers the seduction of a pleasure palace while Russia offers a more traditional way of life.
In addition to the natural appeal of Imperial culture the US/EU and others have been pouring money into Ukraine--not only direct government grants to corrupt oligarchs who then can spread it to their friends and clients and also from covert sources like the CIA and its friends in organized crime--also, there are "charities" raising funds from ordinary people that allegedly go to poor Ukrainian children and so on.
I don't know where all of this is going but I do know that Washington/London believes that Russia will gradually crumble from the inside believing Russians also want to join the "no limits" hedonistic culture of the West--this explains the confidence of the neoconservatives.
The success of the Russian military is essential for those of us in the US and the Empire who, ironically, believe in peace and against war as well as being against the essential nihilism at the heart of popular culture.
Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Jun 10 2023 17:02 utc | 87
Posted by: Exile | Jun 10 2023 15:56 utc | 64
Due to a ‘lack of everything syndrome’ they can only pay lip-service to the above, which admits that even with everything ‘It is perhaps the single, most difficult combat task a force can encounter.’ (Chapter 1).
Posted by: Milites | Jun 10 2023 17:10 utc | 88
Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Jun 10 2023 17:02 utc | 87
Scott Ritter and others and various publications have said that there will be an anti-empire power forming in Europe. It seems, at least initially, Hungary and Austria may be leading that role. Serbia, if they can resist the pressure for the duration of SMO. The anti-empire movement may well spread to other countries, perhaps southern European countries being the more obvious candidates, then France, etc.
It's basically "old vs. new" Europe. New Europe is the "center" that is formed around Poland, which still dances only to the tune of uncle Schmuel. The anti-imperial power and sentiment forming in old Europe is seeking a gradual exit from the empire.
US strategy is to use new Europe to isolate Europe from - not only Russia, but the rest of the world, in order to make Europe completely dependent on US, and having access to the global south only through US controlled venues. This would be even physically impossible, but right now it appears to be succeeding, mainly due to corrupt or extorted or western groomed politicians.
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 10 2023 17:12 utc | 89
Apparently the head of Die Linke is contemplating kicking Wagenknecht out of the party. Wagenknecht is the most vocal ‘peacenik’ in Germany. Her online peace petition garnered millions of signatures. Polling data suggested Wagenknecht would get 19% of German vote.
Link to her Webpage
https://www.sahra-wagenknecht.de/
Posted by: Exile | Jun 10 2023 17:12 utc | 90
Sushi | Jun 10 2023 15:33 utc | 56--
Good summation. As I commented at Simplicius's sitrep, the minefield defense plan was executed to field manual proficiency almost exactly as outlined--and that's an old field manual, US Army, one I read in 1979. There's zero preparation of the road-route by artillery to expose where the mine belts are, and that doesn't require heavy stuff--60mm mortars will work as will the 40mm anti-personnel grenades used by tanks and APCs for close defense. More than one mine clearing vehicle must be employed to make a much wider lane so bunching can be avoided, and a recovery vehicle needs to be included in the vanguard to remove the immobilized. I understand why the treelines are being used, but with so many drones that seems foolish, meaning there's very little difference between that route and ones going directly through open fields. More than one lane is required; otherwise, channelization occurs, nothing moves and everything gets hit. Sure, the treeline allows the dismounted infantry someplace to hide, but that's not their mission. Ukie behavior suggests there wasn't even a briefing about how to traverse minefields aside from: Follow the lane created by the mine clearing vehicle. All that suggests a great lack of training and leadership. As mentioned above by several commentators, these were all small unit advances; given their performance, how should we expect larger formations to perform?
From some reports, Ukie forces were able to penetrate minefields and engage the first defensive lines but with only a few temporary local successes that were thrown back--and those defensive lines aren't THE real first defensive lines that are far more formidable. So much of this reminds me of Pickett's Charge that did reach the hilltop but had no more troops to move forward, most being spent on the advance. Here a company size unit begins with perhaps one squad remaining once the line is reached--far too little to even hold what was gained. It's no wonder some Ukie formations refuse to be used as meat.
IMO, the strategic goal articulated by Simplicius is correct for the reasons he provided. But the circumstances are far from normal; otherwise, a different objective easier to attain would be more practical given Ukie resources. My summation that the Ukies were set up for failure seems to be holding true as they were never provided with the means required to even have a chance.
Reading in of all places The New Yorker, https://archive.is/jFRms, Two Weeks at the Front in Ukraine, one gets the clear impression the Ukrainian “soldiers” are in way over their heads, unfortunately for them through no fault of their own.
Posted by: Gail Storm | Jun 10 2023 17:13 utc | 92
Posted by: Konami | Jun 10 2023 16:13 utc | 76
Speaking for myself, not so much pro-Russian as anti-US, where I reside. To explain further, it comes down to coming to grips with the criminality of US foreign policy. If you read and study US foreign actions, a picture emerges that is ugly. The problem is, most Americans don't want to confront their own country's criminality and instead engage in displacement behavior - echoing the jingoism of the media, embracing one political party and pointing fingers at the other when neither one is really different, obsessing over sports and shopping. Bottom line, I want to see the US's arse handed to it because no country on the planet is more arrogant and dangerous and needs to be put in its place. Russia will do.
As for the fears of NATO going nuclear, you are presuming that NATO thinking is rational, pro-human and fact-based, but its behavior has shown that it is not.
Posted by: Mike R | Jun 10 2023 17:13 utc | 93
I believe most Ukrainians believe, like other Eastern European people that the future lies with the EU...
Posted by: Chris Cosmos | Jun 10 2023 17:02 utc | 87
All the pro-EU Ukranians I knew were interested in to be free to go to EU, men to find jobs there, women to find husbands. Exactly like millions of Ukranians were free to go to Russia but with better money in EU. Mow millions of the relocants got their wish granted. It's a win-wit the way it already is and will get better still.
Posted by: Poslan1 | Jun 10 2023 17:13 utc | 94
Posted by: unimperator | Jun 10 2023 17:00 utc | 86
By teleporter? More like they’ve detected a threat building up there and have no strategic reserve so speak. When they tried to redeploy from Kherson, after the Russian withdrawal, they were savaged, if this is true expect the same or worse, given Russia’s improved ISR recon-strike capabilities with shortened ‘kill-chains’.
Posted by: Milites | Jun 10 2023 17:16 utc | 95
Posted by: Konami | Jun 10 2023 16:13 utc | 76
«convinced that NATO/Poland/USA will attack Russia. If we agree that Russia is winning the war in Ukrainian and prepared for anything NATO can throw at them then why do you assume that NATO/etc. will do precisely that?»
So the problem that many strategists have been working on for decades is not to "pacify" (defeat) a nuclear armed state, and there are two ways:
* War with a non nuclear adversary (nearby state, insurgents) ...
* ... leading to regime change.
Consider how many times the USSR/RF/PRC have fought with or in nearby non-nuclear states and did not resolve the war by simply nuking them (or how many non-nuclear states have the USA "pacified" with invasions without nuking them).
So the current USA strategy seems simple to me: progressively "flip" states near the targets and then use them to start insurgencies or little wars with the targets. It so happens that Ukraine was a big "buffer" state for the RF, and the RF (and Kazakhstan) is a big "buffer" state for the PRC.
Given this it would be wonderful for the USA if like in Korea in the 1950s there were several divisions of chinese volunteers, in Ukraine there were several divisions of polish, czech, baltic, finnish volunteers.
Standard Operating Procedure.
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Posted by: Blissex | Jun 10 2023 17:17 utc | 96
The real problem here is the fact that Ukraine lost the war on February 24th 2022. There is nothing they can do to change that fact. They could attack Donbass, or Crimea, or Mariupol, or they could reinforce their defensive positions along the Dniper , or in Donbass, but nothing could change that hard fact. It is just a matter of sooner or later.
Posted by: SG | Jun 10 2023 17:18 utc | 97
The NATO summit in Lithuania is timed to start on the same day (June 11) that the NATO Air Defender 23 starts; both will take place as Ukraine is launching its much vaunted counteroffensive. This is a very bad combination of events and I do not believe there is anything coincidental about this.
The Ukrainians lack air support and have been getting butchered in their first attempts at breaking through the Russian lines. However, these first attacks could be considered a reconnaissance in force (incredibly botched). Yet there are some reports that state Ukraine has amassed 600 tanks and 60,000 troops that they will use for their main offensive push. Should NATO choose to join the conflict, this would be the time, as NATO could (attempt to) provide air support for a massive Ukrainian attack.
Air Defender 23 has been planned for 4 years, according to DW. The video at that link says 250 aircraft will participate, also mentions that 100 F-16s from the US will fly, and also F-35s are "standing ready nearby", I suppose at Ramstein.
Having all the NATO members at the summit will allow them to OK NATO participation in the Ukraine war should a false flag or an air war with Russia begin.
Crazy? Of course it's crazy. But tell me, do you think the neocon idealogues, drunk on their hubris in Washington, are not capable of such an action? We will soon find out.
Posted by: Perimetr | Jun 10 2023 17:22 utc | 98
@ Posted by: Konami | Jun 10 2023 16:13 utc | 76
Why do you assume everybody here is pro-Russian?..
Give a some of samples of not-being to those for either side, or for the Evil Chinese in Bejing guys .. having commented here on MoAs ...
"rules here" on MoAs ..! There are NO RULRES as You have learned about after 20-years of living in Europe .. Wait6 for 2 years, then describe the same of Your above comment.
There is no rule to have follow here on this Forun ! Understood That?
When circulating some new 'MSM Western media news" onto Yur personal ears, You've made a fault to get actual infos - whether fr5om Your own Gov. or from CIA.
Better listen to RT.com and CGTN.com - both still available on rumble.com : Enter on search : "RT" - that's all.
If You don't like following current news, either on 'RF.com' or for Chinese Conservative Channel CGTN.com1- or for the Russian channel "Anti-Spiegel.ru",
then I cannot help You anymore. Be fresh styled on outfit when Kiew declares surrender on all newly desestrous "Offense Opening" by heavy sampled losses "WIN of UKR-Offensive".
Shall see - as Dima always said - but's correct: Lwt's WA'I'T ...
Posted by: spare-truth | Jun 10 2023 17:22 utc | 99
If...
If the exhausted and destroyed Ukrainian army collapses and retreats west of the Dnieper, how long will the regime survive?
Or simply if the surviving troops decide to do away with their officers and NATO advisors....
If the Russian army is able to reach Kiev within a few days.....
In any of these scenarios, the Polish army will deploy as a buffer force (french NATO TV named LCI actively pushing the idea for 3 days),
But/and can only do so with massive NATO air cover.
So when would be a choosen time to deploy, if not during or just at the end of the NATO air maneuvers starting on Monday?
****
My opinion is that the defeat of Ukraine (essentially armed and trained by Europeans) is NOW a winning option if not the desirable option for the USA and its military-industrial complex.
We will once again welcome hundreds of thousands of "American" soldiers. 5 to 10% of European GDP devoted to financing the US military apparatus and industry.
As Madeleine would say, it's worth a million deaths!
Posted by: La Bastille | Jun 10 2023 17:24 utc | 100
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Report of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation on the progress of the special military operation (as of June 10, 2023)
Over the past day, the armed forces of Ukraine continued unsuccessful attempts to conduct offensive operations in the South-Donetsk and Zaporozhye directions, as well as in the area of the city of ARTEMOVSK.
In the Zaporozhye direction, the active actions of the units of the Vostok group of troops, the strikes of army aviation and artillery repelled two enemy attacks with forces up to a battalion, reinforced with tanks, in the direction of the settlements of YABLONEVE and NOVOPOKROVKA of the Zaporozhye region.
In addition, in the areas of the settlements of NOVODANILOVKA and MALAYA TOKMACHKA of the Zaporozhye region, two columns of armored vehicles of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were defeated.
On the Vremevsky ledge, the enemy launched three unsuccessful attacks, each with forces up to a motorized infantry company, in the areas of the settlements of LEVADNOE in the Zaporozhye region, STOROGOE and NESKUCHNOE in the Donetsk People's Republic.
All enemy attacks were repulsed by the courageous and resolute actions of the units of the Vostok group of troops.
The total losses of Ukrainian troops in these areas per day amounted to up to 300 military personnel, nine tanks, of which four were Leopards, 11 infantry fighting vehicles, including five American Bradleys, 14 armored combat vehicles, six vehicles, and a self-propelled artillery installation "Cezar" made in France.
In the area of the city of ARTEMOVSK of the Donetsk People's Republic, the active actions of the "Southern" group of troops during the day successfully repelled five enemy attacks in the direction of the settlements of KLESHCHEEVKA, DUBOVOV-VASILEVKA, YAGODNOE and ANDREEVKA of the Donetsk People's Republic.
Wedging the enemy into our defense is not allowed.
During the fighting in this direction, up to 230 Ukrainian servicemen, two armored combat vehicles, five vehicles, and two D-30 howitzers were destroyed.
In the Kupyansk direction, air strikes and artillery fire from the "Western" group of forces hit enemy units in the areas of the settlements of STELMAKHOVKA of the Lugansk People's Republic, NOVOMLYNSK, SINKOVKA and ORLYANKA of the Kharkov region.
In addition, in the areas of the settlements of NOVOSELOVSKOE of the Luhansk People's Republic, SINKOVKA and TIMKOVKA of the Kharkiv region, the activities of four Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups were stopped.
During the past 24 hours in this direction destroyed
up to 65 Ukrainian servicemen, one armored personnel carrier, two pickup trucks, as well as the US-made M777 artillery system.
In the Krasno-Limansky direction, operational-tactical and army aviation, artillery of the group of troops "Center" defeated enemy units in the areas of the settlements of YAMPOLOVKA of the Donetsk People's Republic, NEVSKYE, BELOGOROVKA of the Luhansk People's Republic, as well as Serebryansky forestry.
A Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group was liquidated in the area of the village of CHERVONAYA DIBROVA in the Luhansk People's Republic.
During the day, the enemy lost more than 60 Ukrainian servicemen, an infantry fighting vehicle, two armored combat vehicles, three vehicles, Krab, Gvozdika and Akatsia self-propelled artillery mounts, as well as a D-20 howitzer.
An ammunition depot of the 66th Mechanized Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was destroyed in the area of the settlement PETROVSKOE of the Luhansk People's Republic.
In the Kherson direction, as a result of fire damage, up to 40 Ukrainian servicemen, two cars, and an Akatsiya self-propelled artillery mount were destroyed during the day.
In addition, an ammunition depot of the 121st Territorial Defense Brigade was destroyed near the village of OLGOVKA, Kherson Region.
Operational-tactical and army aviation, missile forces and artillery of groups of troops of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation during the day defeated the 93rd artillery units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine at firing positions, manpower and military equipment in 122 districts.
The headquarters of the 10th mountain assault and 60th mechanized brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were hit in the areas of the settlements of RAY-ALEKSANDROVKA of the Donetsk People's Republic and the city of KHARKOV.
A MiG-29 fighter jet of the Ukrainian Air Force was shot down by means of air defense in the area of the settlement PLATONOVKA of the Donetsk People's Republic.
During the day, two Storm Shadow cruise missiles and ten HIMARS multiple rocket launchers were intercepted.
In addition, eight Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles were destroyed in the areas of the settlements of NOVOBAKHMUTOVKA, KIRILLOVKA, VLADIMIROVKA of the Donetsk People's Republic, LYSICHANSK of the Luhansk People's Republic and PESCHANOE of the Kherson region.
In total, since the beginning of the special military operation, the following have been destroyed: 441 aircraft, 238 helicopters, 4,563 unmanned aerial vehicles, 424 anti-aircraft missile systems, 9,841 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 1,122 combat vehicles of multiple launch rocket systems, 5,071 field artillery and mortars, as well as 10856 units of special military vehicles.
Posted by: rumod report | Jun 10 2023 13:45 utc | 1