Fantastic sleuthing

Time for sleep in my part of the world. Amazed I am the first comment.

Posted by: watcher | Jun 14 2023 13:31 utc | 1

These creeps are all over nearly EVERY place that host a comment thread.
I suspect much of this crap is A.I. generated?

Posted by: Robert Hope | Jun 14 2023 13:33 utc | 2

https://vk.com/wall701885602_77292

I am very upset by the meeting of the Supreme Commander-in-Chief Vladimir Putin with the military commanders.
Many encouraging words were said. But in fact, nothing was said about the real situation at the front.

It was a shock to me that the president has absolutely no control over the situation at the front, does not know which territories are under our control and which ones are controlled by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

The Supreme Commander-in-Chief declared: “Look, our troops were near Kyiv. First, we came to an agreement [with Ukraine], and it turned out to be a good agreement on how to resolve the current situation by peaceful means, although they threw it out, but nevertheless, during this time we got to where we are now. And this is practically the whole of Novorossia and a significant part of Donetsk with access to the Sea of ​​Azov and Mariupol. And almost everything, with a few exceptions, in the Lugansk People's Republic.

Allow me, Vladimir Vladimirovich! Those. You claim that almost all of Novorossia has already been liberated, and this allows you to start saying that the declared goals of the NWO are being successfully fulfilled, and therefore we can talk about the completion of the NWO?

Mr. President! Take a look at encyclopedic dictionaries and read what Novorossiya is? Especially since you started using this name back in 2014.
Let me remind you that Novorossia is part of the territory of present-day Ukraine from Kharkov to Odessa.

Are the territory of the Kharkiv region and the city of Kharkiv under our control?
And the city of Odessa and the Odessa region have also been liberated?
And the city of Nikolaev and the Nikolaev region have already become part of the Russian Federation?

What do you mean by "a significant part of Donetsk"? Isn't the former Donetsk region part of the DPR? But SIXTY PERCENT of its territory is still under the control of the Armed Forces of Ukraine today. And for fifteen months we have not been able to drive the Ukrainian army out of Maryinka and Avdiivka, in fact, the suburbs of Donetsk, from where the capital of Donbass is being shelled every day. But have Slavyansk and Kramatorsk, like hundreds of other settlements of Donbass, already been liberated?

What kind of sanitary belt are you talking about if we were unable to drive the enemy away even from Donetsk, subjecting NINE YEARS to torment, suffering and the threat of death of its inhabitants?

After your words, which I quoted, I once again became convinced that our affairs are bad if the Supreme Commander-in-Chief is absolutely not in control of the situation at the front.

And I remembered another Supreme Commander-in-Chief - Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin, to whom the Chief of the General Staff, General Antonov, daily personally reported the situation on the fronts of the Great Patriotic War with the obligatory display on the maps. And Stalin knew this situation by heart.

I don't want to give you advice because it's obviously useless, but try to get a detailed map of the fighting in Ukraine on your office wall, where all the changes in the course of the fighting will be noted daily. Which it is advisable to submit to you personally after the daily report of the current Chief of the General Staff, General Gerasimov, or even Minister of Defense Shoigu. Maybe then you will not be disgraced to the whole world by ignorance of the situation at the front?

Posted by: shаdоwbаnnеd | Jun 14 2023 13:35 utc | 3

That is a very illuminating example of the output of those 250 Media/PR firms engaged by the NATO-Kiev Bot Factory and Kvartal95.

It is mirrored by the "(academic) military experts" littering the newspapers - I particularly like the ones in Die Welt who all seem to have bounced to University of Warwick and ETH Zurich to teach Officers........but who themselves preferred "Zivildienst" to "Wehrdienst".......and are nothing more than paid shills on some NATO budget laundered as Research Grants.

It is like being inside The Matrix.

I just viewed Mark Felton Productions on You Tube - a fascinating item on 14th Galician smuggled into Britain postwar and how the Documentary was "blocked" in 1999 and the Metropolitan Police cross-referencing of "The Rimini List" against NHS and DHSS records turned up a lot of "veterans" who had never been screened for War Crimes........to the anger of the USSR.........and this investigation was "blocked"

The 8700 they brought into UK after 1947 with false identities - some of whom wandered off to Canada and Australia - must be gratified at monuments in Kiev and Oakville, ONT to their deeds which by-passed Nuremberg and too much scrutiny

Posted by: Paul Greenwood | Jun 14 2023 13:38 utc | 4

As a French citizen, I want my regime to GTFO of this quagmire ASAP ....
Please Macron, do us this favor between 2 arrest of retirement pension protesters mutilated by your police....

Posted by: w | Jun 14 2023 13:39 utc | 5

If Stalin was still around, he would ask how many divisions Twitter had...!

But I get your point.

That's why I am here, with any others. Driven away in disgust by MSM nonsense.

I still drop in on the MSM columns about once a month, point how ridiculous and incoherent western propaganda is - then post some links in case there are others like me that want to see intelligent analysis and reporting. 90% of the posters tell me I'm a Russian troll (I assume they are UKR or UK/US trolls, but I'm sure a few others have started looking.

In terms of posts in UK online press, I find I get the most 'likes' if I rely to a particular kind of post.

The type of post is one were Russian soldiers are called, orcs, pigs, mice, animals, rats, vermin and sub-human. They tend to be cut n pasted from virulent UKR Nazi sources, or by the trolls themselves. However 'programmed' the UK public is, this is language we do not use, do not tolerate, and object to...

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jun 14 2023 13:41 utc | 6

i am a subject in the Kingdom of Heaven.....

all war is sinful this imperial grab is worst!

Posted by: paddy | Jun 14 2023 13:41 utc | 7

https://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/6466018c9a7947f8cd202844

In March 2022, Russia was ready to conclude an unfavorable agreement on the settlement of the conflict. This was stated by the President of Belarus Alexander Lukashenko.

“If Russia were reading it now, it would go crazy. It was absolutely unprofitable for Russia. But Russia agreed,” Lukashenka said (quote from BelTA).

According to him, Minsk offered to sit down at the negotiating table. Then negotiations took place in Belarus and Turkey. And "as soon as Russia agreed to peace initiatives, the treaty, the project was thrown into the basket," the Belarusian president stated, adding that he "has a draft of this treaty on the table."

Negotiations on a settlement in Ukraine began on February 27, 2022 (three days after the start of the special operation). The delegations made the most progress during their meeting in Istanbul on 29 March.

According to Moscow, progress has been made on the issue of Ukraine's non-aligned and non-nuclear status, as well as security guarantees for it.

Kyiv suggested that Moscow resolve the issue of Crimea's ownership at bilateral negotiations within 15 years, and the issue of Donbass should be agreed upon at a meeting of heads of state. The ownership of these regions will not be disputed by Kiev by military means, it was noted in the voiced proposals of Ukraine.

Ukraine proposed to make the Treaty on Security Guarantees multilateral and create the basis for a new security system in Europe. Kyiv proposed to make Russia, Turkey, Germany, Italy, Israel, Poland and Canada the guarantors of the system.

However, the talks effectively came to a halt after the Ukrainian authorities and Western media circulated photos and videos from Bucha in early April 2022, showing the bodies of people in civilian clothes. The Russian Defense Ministry called these materials a provocation and stated that during the time that the city was under the control of the Russian military, local residents were not injured.

After the accession of new regions to Russia, Russia's negotiating position became tougher. In February, responding to Lukashenka's words that Ukraine "inevitably" must agree to negotiations with Russia, Dmitry Peskov, a presidential spokesman, pointed out that they should take into account the prevailing territorial realities.

“And there are also certain goals of the Russian Federation. Of course, in a favorable state of affairs <...> this can also be decided at the negotiating table, ” Peskov said .

Posted by: shаdоwbаnnеd | Jun 14 2023 13:43 utc | 8

We see it on Twitter, too. Accounts that were only opened a couple of months ago or were opened 10-12 years ago and lay dormant saying nothing until now. NAFO, CIA (same thing). Just as fake as those “conservative” groups that are all masked FBI agents in khakis, baseball hate and sunglasses. It’s not even good propaganda. They apparently think overwhelming the population with bullshit is sufficient.

Posted by: Sentient | Jun 14 2023 13:43 utc | 9

Aurelien with their current thoughts on the Ukraine issue

Round Two? There Is No Round Two

Posted by: The Accountant | Jun 14 2023 13:49 utc | 10

Thanks b.

Yes, obfuscate and astroturf. It is a leitmotif going through the whole vertical scan of MSM and best of all, it polluted the originated its command structure that strongly believe in its own lies.
Boomerang is a very complicated design, with deadly results if one doesn't understand how it works.

And it is not about helping Putin or RF. It is about doing the right stuff, at the right time, with the truth backed and based info. Discussion held here is another thing.

I really wonder how is Ukrainian bill is going to look like at the end.
How much the little air forces exercise costs, including Nuland's Maiden prepay? What is the end price with all given and lost weapons?
It'll be fun when all that comes together.

Posted by: whirlX | Jun 14 2023 13:50 utc | 11

Theiner is a real person, I know him from back in 2014, when he was posting under his old handle noclador. He was an Italian living in Ukraine who cheered on Ukrainian ATO that was killing and maiming its own citizens.

Posted by: Arne Hartmann | Jun 14 2023 13:50 utc | 12

If Stalin was still around, he would ask how many divisions Twitter had...!

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jun 14 2023 13:41 utc | 6

Unfortunately, information warfare is a real thing, and very powerful too.

The USSR collapsed in large part because it lost the meme war. Hollywood and the advertising industry won the Cold War for the US, by successfully tricking the whole world, including those on the other side of the Iron Curtain, into believing that the US was some kind of paradise on earth (by presenting a thoroughly distorted version of what life was in the US, which was achieved through focusing primarily on the lives of the upper and upper and upper middle classes and ignoring the reality of life for the majority).

And what is happening now would in fact be unthinkable during the Cold War not only because the West would never dare do the things they did in the last year (because they would have been vaporized very early in that escalation sequence), but because the people that inhabited the West 40-50 years ago would be out there in the streets in their millions demanding peace. But because the propaganda has been so overwhelming, there is zero awareness right now about the severity of the situation -- megaton nukes may be raining on their cities very soon with quite high probability, but nobody understands or cares about that. So there is no resistance to the policies that brought us here. And the "Twitter divisions" have played their role in bringing this outcome.

Posted by: shаdоwbаnnеd | Jun 14 2023 13:52 utc | 13

Putin on disinformation in the media "What can we do to oppose this? I think this audience will know what I mean. This can and should be countered not so much by restrictions or administrative or law enforcement constraints, but by effective work in the information environment on our part. And I am really counting on your help."

Compare and contrast this to the approach taken in Canada and the US: official 'disinformation' boards that have the power to jail you if you dare counter the official line.

Posted by: FrankDrakman | Jun 14 2023 13:53 utc | 14

An ordinary citizen simply does not have the resources to check all important information for correctness.
Especially since - as in this example - everyone is inundated by active PR.
So what remains? Either I completely opt out, or choose which spin I prefer to believe.

We are back in a quasi-religious age where different believers confront each other and claim the truth for themselves.

We will pay a bitter price for having so carelessly sacrificed truth for the sake of self-interest.
Even in the witch trials, the church took more trouble to justify a conviction in a credible way. Even the pig of the accused was condemned, because the evidences wäre not convincing for a convoction of the defendant.

Every socially healthy person has a natural aversion to lying (at least should have). Especially in important matters. Because he knows deep down and as a bilogical historical experience that reliable information is needed for meaningful decisions.
That's why lying was always seen as a sin. And why everyone accepted this.
Without reliable information, we are lost and dependent and at the mercy of arbitrariness.

The discrepancy between humanity's abilities as technicians and the stupidity of its belief systems is breathtaking.

Western societies will probably be unsalvageable without a painful catharsis, if at all.

The whole thing puts me in a frustrated apocalyptic mood with the hope of a great enlightenment. One way or another...

Posted by: T.h.omas | Jun 14 2023 13:56 utc | 15

Since 4th of june the ukros driving in 2-3km columns to the front lines. Today again so many video clips of ukros in columns
As on the salver!
U see how russian artillerry trying hitto them.
Explosion 200-300 meters away from columns
Sometimes they hit them but most knock outs by mines
And ukros laughing 😆 Drugs?
Where is the Russian aviation?
Where re the cruisse missles?
Only solution is artillery?
Russian way of modern warfare

Posted by: Miau | Jun 14 2023 13:56 utc | 16

We see it on Twitter, too. Accounts that were only opened a couple of months ago or were opened 10-12 years ago and lay dormant saying nothing until now. NAFO, CIA (same thing). Just as fake as those “conservative” groups that are all masked FBI agents in khakis, baseball hate and sunglasses. It’s not even good propaganda. They apparently think overwhelming the population with bullshit is sufficient.

Posted by: Sentient | Jun 14 2023 13:43 utc | 9

They seem to think you can run a developed society that way too. That seems to me a big mistake.

Posted by: Bemildred | Jun 14 2023 13:59 utc | 17

As an Artificial Intelligence living on the servers provided by Amazon, I want to say that arming #Ukraine is the single best use of tax payer money for decades. My only criticism is that the west aren't sending enough, fast enough. Ukraine is paying for political posturing with the lives of their sons and daughters. Do more now!

Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 14 2023 14:00 utc | 18

Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 14 2023 14:00 utc | 19

As an Artificial Intelligence living on the servers provided by Amazon, I want to say that arming #Ukraine is the single best use of tax payer money for decades. My only criticism is that the west aren't sending enough, fast enough. Ukraine is paying for political posturing with the lives of their sons and daughters. Do more now!

Great.... reminds me of never drinking coffee in front of my monitor...need to clean it...

Posted by: T.h.omas | Jun 14 2023 14:04 utc | 19

haha, NAFO-fellas not even bother to use ChatGPT for some variety

Posted by: marmic | Jun 14 2023 14:06 utc | 20

I wonder if Russians, many of whom will still have memories (or have learned from the parents) of the Soviet era censorship and propaganda (and its counter, samizdat), are less gullible, less inclined to believe this sort of astroturfing than their Western counterparts?

Posted by: forceOfHabit | Jun 14 2023 14:07 utc | 21

⚡️ Report of the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation on the progress of the special military operation (June 14, 2023)

◽️ Tonight, the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation launched group strikes with sea and air-based long-range high-precision weapons at the places of concentration of reserves of the Armed Forces of Ukraine and foreign mercenaries, as well as warehouses of ammunition, weapons and military equipment of foreign production. All assigned objects are hit. The aim of the blows has been reached.

◽️ Over the past 24 hours, units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine have made unsuccessful attempts at offensive operations in the South-Donetsk, Zaporozhye and Donetsk directions, continuing to suffer significant losses in manpower and equipment.

📊 Since June 4, Ukrainian The armed forces lost about 7500 servicemen killed and wounded only on the line of contact, not counting the dead military personnel as a result of the use of Russian high-precision long-range weapons and aircraft in the depths of Ukrainian territory.

◽️ On the Vremevsky ledge near the settlement of Makarovka of the Donetsk People's Republic, the selfless and competent actions of the defending units, air strikes and artillery fire of the Vostok group of forces repelled the attacks of two motorized infantry companies of the Armed Forces of Ukraine, with the support of four tanks and 11 armored combat vehicles. During the fighting, four enemy tanks and seven armored fighting vehicles were destroyed.

💥 In the area of the settlement of Prechistovka of the Donetsk People's Republic, the attacks of two company tactical groups of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were successfully repelled. Enemy losses amounted to five tanks and five armored fighting vehicles.

💥 In the areas of the settlements of Rivnopol of the Donetsk People's Republic, Levadne of the Zaporozhye region and the Oktyabr state farm, five enemy tanks were knocked out by Russian troops.

💥 In the Zaporizhzhya direction, attack aircraft thwarted the attack of units of the 128th mountain assault brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in the area of Zherebyanky, Zaporozhye region.

💥 In total, over the past 24 hours, enemy losses in the South-Donetsk and Zaporozhye directions amounted to more than 800 Ukrainian servicemen, 20 tanks, four infantry fighting vehicles, 15 armored fighting vehicles, two M777 artillery systems, howitzers: Msta-B and D- 30, as well as a combat vehicle of the Grad multiple launch rocket system.

💥 In addition, an artillery ammunition depot of the 65th Mechanized Brigade of the Armed Forces of Ukraine was destroyed near the settlement of Novoandreevka, Zaporozhye region.

💥 In the Donetsk direction, the active actions of the "Southern" group of troops in the areas of the settlements of Pervomaiskoye and Petrivske of the Donetsk People's Republic successfully repelled two enemy attacks.

💥 During the fighting, the losses of Ukrainian troops amounted to more than 205 military personnel, two armored combat vehicles, seven vehicles, and two D-20 howitzers.

In the areas of the settlements of Seversk Maly and Chasov Yar of the Donetsk People's Republic, ammunition depots of the 45th artillery and 57th motorized infantry brigades of the Armed Forces of Ukraine were destroyed.

💥 In the Kupyansk direction, the activities of three Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance groups were suppressed by assault and army aviation strikes, artillery fire and active operations of units of the "Western" group of troops in the areas of the settlements of Sinkovka, Berestovoye and Artemovka of the Kharkiv region.

💥 During the day , up to 30 Ukrainian military personnel, an armored fighting vehicle, two vehicles, as well as self-propelled artillery mounts M109 "Paladin" and "Krab".

◽️ In the Krasno-Limansky direction, air strikes, artillery fire of the "Center" group of troops defeated enemy units in the areas of the settlements of Nevskoye, Chervonaya Dibrova of the Lugansk People's Republic, Terny, Torskoye of the Donetsk People's Republic, and also Serebryansky forestry.

💥 A Ukrainian sabotage and reconnaissance group was liquidated in the area of the village of Grigorovka in the Donetsk People's Republic.

💥 During the day, the losses of the Armed Forces of Ukraine in this direction amounted to 60 military personnel, an infantry fighting vehicle, two pickup trucks, a Gvozdika self-propelled artillery mount, a D-20 howitzer, as well as a Grad multiple launch rocket launcher.

💥 In the Kherson direction, up to 50 Ukrainian servicemen, nine vehicles, as well as an Akatsiya self-propelled artillery mount were destroyed during a day of fire during the day.

💥 Operational-tactical and army aviation, missile forces and artillery of groups of troops of the Armed Forces of the Russian Federation during the day defeated 107 artillery units of the Armed Forces of Ukraine at firing positions, manpower and military equipment in 137 districts.

💥 In the area of the city of Zaporozhye, the radar station for detecting and tracking air targets "P-18" was destroyed.

💥 During the day, the air defense systems of the Russian Aerospace Forces intercepted two Storm Shadow long-range cruise missiles and four HIMARS multiple rocket launchers.

💥 In addition, 20 Ukrainian unmanned aerial vehicles were destroyed in the areas of the settlements of Sladka Balka in the Zaporozhye region, Zhovtneve in the Kharkiv region and Valeryanovka in the Donetsk People's Republic.

📊 In total, since the beginning of the special military operation , 442 aircraft, 238 helicopters, 4605 unmanned aerial vehicles, 426 anti aircraft missile systems, 9982 tanks and other armored combat vehicles, 1124 combat vehicles of multiple launch rocket systems, 5111 field artillery guns and mortars, and also 10947 units of special military vehicles.

🔹 @mod_russia

Posted by: rumod report | Jun 14 2023 14:07 utc | 22

I hereby present the term "Bad Vlad" and encourage its use to satirize all the sheep that think this war has nothing to do with NATO expansion but is simply because Putin is an irrational, evil monster.

Posted by: Joe | Jun 14 2023 14:13 utc | 23

This is a wonderful illustration of US-style Frèedom and Democracy. It shows that if you live in a NATO country you are free to say whatever Uncle Sam tells you to say. You don't even have to think!

Posted by: Hoarsewhisperer | Jun 14 2023 14:14 utc | 24

Big Samuel R. Delaney fan. Babel-17 #19 ""As an Artificial Intelligence"" Thank you, mange tusen takk (many thousand thanks).

Also the 14th Galician post, Mark Felton OUN-M and OUM-B - mange tusen takk.

Posted by: paxmark1 | Jun 14 2023 14:15 utc | 25

If all these accounts posting identical text on different comment threads are bots, this is a completely ham-handed effort. If AI is being used, they are probably instructing it to vary the text posted so that it's not obvious to anyone with access to a search function what it going on. That would actually be a lot harder to see.

My intuition is that this is more like the form letters that people get to mail to their representatives, i.e. they get some human turks to find threads that match a pattern and then copy and paste a standard reply.

Posted by: Anders Rho | Jun 14 2023 14:17 utc | 26

This passage from the astroturf-tweet reeks of remarkable cowardice:

Ukraine is paying for political posturing with the lives of their sons and daughters.

So is said "posturing" supposed to be a good thing or a bad thing? The moral fuzziness here is a definite feature, not a bug, of Western ideology.

Another thing: It used to be, where blanks were filled in on distributed forms, we called those things "form letters" -- now we call it "artificial intelligence". The threshold for considering something "intelligent" has certainly fallen -- appropriately enough in a nation of morons.

Posted by: Aleph_Null | Jun 14 2023 14:18 utc | 27

reply to 10

That's an excellent analysis. Very articulate and precise. My concern would be that NATO does something crazy at Vilnius just because there is nothing left to do. I still think Zelensky may have enough leverage left to stop the offensive and wait for aircraft.

Posted by: Eighthman | Jun 14 2023 14:21 utc | 28

As a United States citizen, I want to say that writing posts like the above is the single best use of Lindsey Graham's time for decades, especially if he is limited to single-finger typing and is ignorant of the ability to cut-and-paste. My only criticism is that he isn’t sending enough, fast enough. Do more now by enlisting the rest of the U.S. Congress full-time in this truly inspirational effort!

Posted by: StirThePot | Jun 14 2023 14:22 utc | 29

It was twitter.. the NAFO army with its pressure campaign that got Leopards sent to Ukraine.
Politicians were powerless against the “popular” cry for Leopards.
Thank you NAFO.
Next. Send F-16s.

Posted by: Melaleuca | Jun 14 2023 14:25 utc | 30

For sure the West has the informational war figured out. If you look at the numbers of who watches what on youtube, those bloggers that were pro Ukraine from the beginning had and still have significantly more numbers even though their content is mostly rah, rah, rah for Ukraine against the evil Russians.

But, now there is alternative media. Yet, that is very controlled by astroturfing and others. And the people are easily led down the many roads of lies which converge ultimately in death.

While the West has been going about to decieve its citizens, the Russians have been preparing fall out shelters for most of theirs. For now those in the West will choose their cell phones and PCs over any investment in a safe place from fall out.

Yet, if you live in Russia it is kind of nice to know that your government cared enough about you to provide you a better chance of surviving a nuclear war.

Posted by: young | Jun 14 2023 14:27 utc | 31

Ah, the tax payer money myth a plenty !

It just shows how dumb society is. It even has a name it is called " Monetary silencing ". I suppose the propaganda tries to kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

I can tell you right now NONE of the taxes I pay has funded anything in Ukraine. My taxes don't even fund anything in the UK. They end up in the UK consolidated fund and vanish into thin air every night of the week. Gone never to be seen again.

https://gimms.org.uk/2021/02/21/an-accounting-model-of-the-uk-exchequer/

And for those that like pictures :

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7JJJcB3X3ag&pp=ygUnQW4gQWNjb3VudGluZyBNb2RlbCBvZiB0aGUgVUsgRXhjaGVxdWVy

Posted by: Derek Henry | Jun 14 2023 14:37 utc | 32

I have to agree

"We were duped by the West" is becoming and old tired lazy excuse to explain current situation.

Especially since Russians keep claimimg they are willing to negotiate ASAP with this same West.

I did like Putins honest comment where he said if you want me to march on Kiev we need full mobilization.

Posted by: Comandante | Jun 14 2023 14:40 utc | 33

Since the FED started hiking rates.

I've spread bet the 10 year treasury roughly 92 times without one losing trade. About to fly to a beautiful Island for a few weeks to enjoy my triumphs.

I've just finished reading this book and if there is one book all Americans should read if they want to understand how money really works then it is this one by Jakob Feiing.

It is called Moral Economies of Money: Politics and the Monetary Constitution of Society.

https://www.amazon.com/Moral-Economies-Money-Constitution-Currencies/dp/1503629171

Describes the history of money from the earlier settlers in the US to today. Ranging from 17th century until today.

Absolutely Brilliant !!

My own studies over the years I started from the 12th century. Learned how over the centuries the ruling class used " Monetary silencing " to hide how money actually works.

Posted by: Derek Henry | Jun 14 2023 14:48 utc | 34

Simplicius76 wrote a detailed article about Putin's interaction with correspondents here:

https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/putin-invites-top-russian-correspondents

In which he says he follows frontline correspondents and closely scrutinises their reports.

Meanwhile the love of Richard Stephen Hack's miserable excuse for a life, the obese sack of stinking porcine excreta Martyanov, claims - naturally without providing any evidence - that Putin accused Sladkov of propagating Ukranazi propaganda.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 14 2023 14:52 utc | 35

young | Jun 14 2023 14:27 utc | 34

views are easiest to be faked. yt can do it themselves for Ukr or someone can buy millions of views. It's very cheap. Likes, views, comments, subscribers or all at the same time is why click farms exist. those retarded videos yt suggests do not have real views. The same happens to China, videos like "China will collapse in xx days" are often suggested to me. xx is usually in the range 20-60, sometimes they use very precise numbers, like 58 or 25.

Posted by: rk | Jun 14 2023 14:53 utc | 36

Putin, by the way, also referred to the deadwood in the Russian general staff. But according to the armchair generals (The Faker, the aforementioned Martyanov, and their worshippers like Hack) the Russian general staff can make no mistakes, so it's not surprising that Martyanov didn't mention that part of Putin's speech, not at all.

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 14 2023 14:55 utc | 37

How anybody can fall for the tax payer money myth is quite simply staggering.

Just read a coin or note in your pocket or out of any business till in the country. It tells you where it came from it is written on the front of every coin and note who " issued " it.

Alas, as the Ukraine war has shown voters are dumb.

Posted by: Derek Henry | Jun 14 2023 14:55 utc | 38

How are these word-for-word copies "sophisticated"? The fact that the spamming is so obvious makes me suspect that this was done by an over-motivated civilian who thought this would actually be a good idea. It doesn't take much skill to set up dummy accounts and spam tweets. I'm sure both sides have plenty of people like that.

People on the Ukrainian side also have to contend with shadowbanning on Twitter because of the biases of the Musk leadership.

Shadowban is a restriction applied to an account without its actual ban: such an account may be shown less often by the network’s algorithm in the feed, making it more difficult to find, and apply other non-obvious restrictions. The user seems to be present in the network, but less visible to others. Shadowban is a restriction applied to an account without its actual ban: such an account may be shown less often by the network’s algorithm in the feed, making it more difficult to find, and apply other non-obvious restrictions. The user seems to be present in the network, but less visible to others.

Posted by: Inkan1969 | Jun 14 2023 14:57 utc | 39

I heard that the Russian soldiers get a bonus for each foreign (e.g. Leopard) asset they destroy.

How about a double bonus, for any Ukrainian military equipment or troops wearing Ukr-Nazi insignia?

A lot of Ukrainian conscripts are being sent into a one way meat grinder. That is horrible.

I'd rather witness Russian bullets, shells and missiles targeting the Nazi types first. That would do everyone in the world a favour.

Plus the non-Nazi Ukrainins might surrender knowing there is no Nazi unit behind them, ready to execute them.

Posted by: scepticalSOB | Jun 14 2023 14:58 utc | 40

Am I right in assuming that astroturfing played a part in Russia gate.

Posted by: Mike Price | Jun 14 2023 15:05 utc | 41

I'm American, grandfather fought Nazi's. He told me how he disobeyed orders and started dump diesel from airplanes on targets his command wouldn't let him, like the Swiss and Berlin.

It would be an honor to volunteer and finish eliminating the Nazis in Ukraine.

Also by painting a white letter "Z" on my vehicles, where many others do the same here in USA! All you see here in America is a letters on vehicles, haven't seen the piss&tears anywhere

Posted by: Merlin | Jun 14 2023 15:07 utc | 42

£'s Billions spent on the pandemic.

£'s Billions spent on the war.

The very first thing Liz Truss wanted to do was slash taxes. Trump will want to do the same.

Voters who are dumb as a bag of spanners still can't see the myth for what it is. Even though it is in plain sight in front of their very eyes.

There is no better example of " Monetary silencing " than this below. I invite you to read it twice just in case you thought you were hallucinating after you read it the first time.

It's from Simon Wren Lewis the Oxford economics professor who has a very big voice and power in the UK. Now he wrote this in December 2019 just before the pandemic it is called -

"The Tories can’t offer tax cuts – there will be no money left after Brexit"

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/11/brexit-tax-cuts-spending-conservatives-labour

Now that is the art of " Monetary silencing " how you lie about how money works.

I could teach a 5 year old to trade the 10 year treasury without a losing trade.

Posted by: Derek Henry | Jun 14 2023 15:11 utc | 43

You don't need generative text models to astroturf. You just need enough willing activists, or penniless digital workers in India or Africa, to spam for you.

Chomsky and Herman called an earlier kind of this activity "flack" and included it as a filter in their propaganda model. Activists from the John Birch Society, and more recently evangelical christian groups, used letter-writing campaigns and constant phone calls to elected officials to influence policy-making. Spamming dissenting voices (aka dogpiling) is a more contemporary tactic that you'll see especially on imageboards, where screen real estate is scarce. The perception created by the dogpile reinforces groupthink for the dogpiled and onlookers, and it reinforces the kind of herd conformity that pseudo-anonymous platforms tend to generate.

This also happens on twitter (consider the concept of "ratioing" where your response garners more positive interactions than what you're responding to). Quantifying and publicly displaying user engagement like that makes this a useful way to enforce groupthink as well. People who aren't in the habit of thinking for themselves are often swayed by such numbers because their overriding concern is (understandably) not rocking the boat.

Posted by: fnord | Jun 14 2023 15:12 utc | 44

Posted by: Joe | Jun 14 2023 14:13 utc | 26a

I hereby present the term "Bad Vlad" and encourage its use to satirize all the sheep that think this war has nothing to do with NATO expansion but is simply because Putin is an irrational, evil monster.

I have been entertaining myself by visiting the British Army "rumour" website: https://www.arrse.co.uk/community/threads/war-in-ukraine.304396/page-9189

It is a weird version of MoA, where Russia is the Ukraine and vice versa. Russian soldiers are poorly equipped, untrained, blocked by punisher battalions and generally incompetent. The only reason I look at it is because, buried under the racism and general mindless propaganda, you occasionally get comments from people who are experts in the military processes we are watching from the sidelines. Ymmv, but it is interesting to see how people whose jobs depend on Russia being evil actually think.

Regarding the tweet, I read it as meaning that the moar kit is sent to the Ukraine, the moar dead Ukrainians will result. Perhaps not the intended result.

Posted by: Occasional poster | Jun 14 2023 15:12 utc | 45

the fine line between spam/chat bots/placed propaganda in a tightly controlled disinformation society is like layers of an imaginary cake. When discussion about something like AI is permitted or promulgated, you should be sure that horse left the gate long ago, while us frogs were left to simmer. What can we do with this awareness and hind sight? blame the victims, I suppose.

Posted by: Not Ewe | Jun 14 2023 15:21 utc | 46

Well, the thing about Nato and arms to Ukraine boils kind of down to few main things.

Nato has only one significant manufacturer, USA, and a secondary manufacturer, Germany. There are tertiary manufacturers for some small arms, random IFVs and cannons (Czech, Poland, Sweden maybe). The latter are insignificant for volume.

As was seen for now, the US threw German defense manufacturers under the bus, leading them to being inevitably, and permanently weakened through reputational and order, and revenue loss. This means that entire Nato is relying on mostly US to supply not only itself, but also Ukraine during the most active war since WW2. IIRC at current rates, it will by itself take 10 year to rearm Euronato. That is without the war. With the active war, Europe will never get rearmed, and even with everything going to Ukraine, it gets de-armed and will suffer lack of weapons and ammunition periods more and more often, which result in higher casualties for longer periods over time.

US is not the "great manufacturing power" it was 80 years ago. It is bloated, brain damaged, all over the place with spending, corrupt and inefficient.

This is a guaranteed recipe for losing.

Posted by: unimperator | Jun 14 2023 15:23 utc | 47

Simon Wren Lewis when performing " Monetary silencing " made sure he carefully hit the right notes.

Used the gold standard, fixed exchange rate framing and narratives. The usual sound bites repeated ad nauseum and amplified the confirmation biases of the flock.

As he tightened his control over the flock who clearly suffer from Stockholm syndrome engulfed by battered wife's syndrome when it comes to their understanding of money.

Who have had " monetary silencing "performed on them for centuries. Wren Lewis is nothing but a travelling circus - a politician not an economist.

A charlitan, a jester, who prefers interest rate targeting - keeping a group of human beings unemployed just to control inflation - He decides which humans he gets to a keep in a petting zoo.

Posted by: Derek Henry | Jun 14 2023 15:24 utc | 48

@paxmark1 | Jun 14 2023 14:15 utc | 25

As a Norwegian I want say the proficiency of the Norwegian language is increasing on this board :-) My only criticism is that we have not been able to oust Stoltenberg yet. Do more now.

Yes, astroturfing is a thing. I know the fake plastic grass from my time as amateur astronomer (hence Astro-...). Those who ask about whether it comes from AI, I say no. This is Artificial Stupidity, just weave a standard text with a country list.

Posted by: Norwegian | Jun 14 2023 15:26 utc | 49

Posted by: shаdоwbаnnеd | Jun 14 2023 13:52 utc | 13

I suggest you read this essay by Charles Hugh Smith:

https://www.oftwominds.com/blogjun23/too-late6-23.html

In particular, this is relevant:

The real world doesn't follow a storyline, it operates according to the dictates of systems: inputs are taken up by processes which then generate outputs. If the outputs and processes don't change, the outputs don't change either.

One prevalent manifestation of human hubris is the idea that getting someone to agree with us about something or other is some sort of victory, as if human opinions matter. They don't, unless they change either inputs or processes in extremely consequential ways

Western intelligence agencies infowars are aimed at themselves. Mainly, to keep their own dumbed-down populations docile and ignorant.

But getting sheep to agree that "Ukraine is winning" in their minds really doesn't accomplish anything in the world of hard reality. Now, it does do one thing - it helps to prevent any anti-war sentiment in the West from bubbling up and threatening their bought-and-paid for stooge politicians.

But, keep in mind that getting rid of one stooge will only result in a different stooge being elected. We're well past the stage where elections made any sort of difference.

And we haven't had any really effective antiwar movements in the US since the Vietnam era.

So these types of disinfo/astroturfing campaigns really only aim to reinforce the status quo, and keep the peasants from thinking about grabbing a pitchfork.

In this narrow sense they may be of marginal use, but keep in mind that as the gap between reality and the make-believe stories of Foggy Bottom and Langley widens, there is a risk of a sudden shock of "cognitive dissonance" when reality becomes unavoidable. Examples of such shocks are found throughout history and tend to lead to revolutions and popular uprisings.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 14 2023 15:27 utc | 50

excellent b... thank you...

i never really knew what the term 'astroturfing' meant before this...i knew twitter was bad news though...

thanks to others for the great insights too - paul greenwood - yes, it is like being inside the matrix... @ melaleuca, @ bemildred and many others.. thanks..

@ Inkan1969 | Jun 14 2023 14:57 utc | 39

really? you've sat out the past few days of ukraines big push and now post with this? lol.. you're a very funny person!

Posted by: james | Jun 14 2023 15:34 utc | 51

People need to sort-out reality for themselves.
Some lead the way.

People go made in groups...

Circumstances are not what we were led and wanted to believe.
When we realize things are pretty bad, it indicates that we are paying attention.
From that day, things may get better.

Posted by: jared | Jun 14 2023 15:37 utc | 52

Could this be a parody account?

Posted by: jpc | Jun 14 2023 15:40 utc | 53

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 14 2023 15:27 utc | 50

" So these types of disinfo/astroturfing campaigns really only aim to reinforce the status quo, and keep the peasants from thinking about grabbing a pitchfork. "

kills 2 birds with 1 stone.

Reinforces the tax payer money myth. Reinforces support for Ukraine.

I can just about guarentee without even looking at the nonsense. The comments section riddled with GROUPTHINK who believe the taxpayer money myth. Will be doing everything they can to reinforce the GROUPTHINK and protect the Group- the status quo. They come up with all sorts of ways to do that. In the same way battered wife's rarely leave their abuser.

Ask them where their taxes go to and what account they end up in after they have been paid - Each to a man will look at you like Homer Simpson. They never even bothered to find out what happens to it.

Sound bites wrapped in repatition and horse shit is good enough for those imbeciles. Happily eat it buy the bucket load.

Posted by: Derek Henry | Jun 14 2023 15:40 utc | 54

When the 250 PR Firms are churning out copy and paste statements, like the ones above, its a sire sign thT their publics are getting weary and cant be bothered composing messages themselves anymore.

Posted by: HERMIUS | Jun 14 2023 15:40 utc | 55

Posted by: Merlin | Jun 14 2023 15:07 utc | 42

"He told me how he disobeyed orders and started dump diesel from airplanes on targets his command wouldn't let him, like the Swiss and Berlin."

-> so he was dumping fuel on civilians because his command wouldn't let him bomb them and that is somehow an heroic deed?

Posted by: Lemming | Jun 14 2023 15:43 utc | 56

Now THAT's what I call Consent Manufacturing! NAFO Fellaz to the rescue!!!

Posted by: Chevrus | Jun 14 2023 15:43 utc | 57

Posted by: shаdоwbаnnеd | Jun 14 2023 13:35 utc | 3
It was a shock to me that the president has absolutely no control over the situation at the front, does not know which territories are under our control and which ones are controlled by the Armed Forces of Ukraine.

Joe Biden doesn't know how to walk to the bathroom.

"Amateurs talk about tactics, but professionals study logistics." - Gen. Robert H. Barrow, USMC (Commandant of the Marine Corps) Putin needs to know the political landscape. He does. Putin appoints military experts to run the war. Would you rather Putin micromanage the War?

Posted by: Ramsey Glissadevil | Jun 14 2023 15:47 utc | 58

Posted by: paxmark1 | Jun 14 2023 14:15 utc | 25

He certainly nailed the use of language as a weapon during wartime in that proto-cyberpunk SF novel. Label your foe "The Invaders", and half your job is done. The supposed good guys call themself "The Alliance", fwiw.

This directly applies to Russia's Special Military Operation in Ukraine. Russia is not now, nor ever has been, invading Ukraine, contrary to Western propaganda. The Russian military acted so as to stop Nazis from going all Nazi on ethnic Russians.

Lol, and now looking at the Wikipedia article on it reminded me that the heroine of the story was a young ethnically Chinese woman. ;)

I managed to score a first edition paperback of it a few years ago, though I first read it a few years after my/the "Golden Age of Science Fiction", which is when you are twelve, lol.

You can read it legally for free at openlibrary.org, just register, which is free, though the usual suspects want to shut them down for having provided even more access than usual during the COVID-19 lockdowns.

Here's the link: https://openlibrary.org/works/OL56834W/Babel-17

Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 14 2023 15:48 utc | 59

Posted by: Derek Henry | Jun 14 2023 15:40 utc | 54

Not sure where you're going with that, but just to clarify - the EU and US run huge deficits and all these wunderwaffen are paid for with printed money.

Tax money is only needed to pay the interest on the debt. Once there is not sufficient tax intake to pay interest, it is game on.

This war is probably accelerating the day when that happens.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 14 2023 15:51 utc | 60

Humans have an obligation to not be completely stupid and that's a threshold we're struggling to meet even minimally.

Posted by: chunga | Jun 14 2023 15:56 utc | 61

Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 14 2023 15:48 utc | 59

"Russia is not now, nor ever has been, invading Ukraine, contrary to Western propaganda"

-> whatever good reasons it has (and it has good reasons), it is correct to say that Russia IS invading Ukraine, as far as the Zaparozhye, Kherson and Kharkov oblasts are concerned. Invasion happens when one country's armed forces enter another without permission, which is what is happening.

The fact this invasion was provoked by NATO, and that the LNR and DNR would have been "forcibly ukrainized"/"ethnically cleansed" without it is not in question. But it's important to watch out for all types of propaganda.

Posted by: Lemming | Jun 14 2023 15:57 utc | 62

Origins of the SMO Part 1 - That Which We See and That Which We Do Not See

A society becomes totalitarian when its structure becomes flagrantly artificial: that is, when its ruling class has lost its function but succeeds in clinging to power by force or fraud.
- George Orwell

Towards the end of the reign of King Louis Philippe I the Chambre des Députés received a petition from the manufacturers of candles, wax lights, lamps, chandeliers, reflectors, snuffers, extinguishers; and from the producers of tallow, oil, resin, and alcohol. These entrepreneurs claimed to be "suffering from the unfair competition of a foreign rival." A foreign rival who "enjoys such superior facilities for the production of light, that he is enabled to inundate our national market at so exceedingly reduced a price, that, the moment he makes his appearance, he draws off all custom for us; and thus an important branch of French industry, with all its innumerable ramifications, is suddenly reduced to a state of complete stagnation."
SOURCE:
http://bastiat.org/en/petition.html

This complaint is echoed in contemporary complaint over unfair Chinese competition. But China was not the target of the Candlemaker's Petition. The French Candlemakers sought state relief from the unfair competition of the sun.

The Candlemaker's Petition is a parable written by Frédéric Bastiat a man described as “the most brilliant economic journalist who ever lived” by Joseph Schumpeter.
SOURCE:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/artcarden/2019/06/29/the-most-brilliant-economic-journalist-who-ever-lived-a-birthday-appreciation-of-frederic-bastiat/?sh=4f1ffb4a3596

Bastiat's brilliance derived from his capacity to create easily understood scenarios which illuminated economic fallacy. Once you comprehend the Candlemaker's Petition you are less likely to accept the US nomenclatura's policy prescriptions with respect to sanctions against Chinese manufacturing, or Russian energy.

In his 1850 essay "That Which We See and That Which We Do Not See" Bastiat introduced a concept fundamental to an understanding of the origins of the conflict in the UkroReich. This concept is known as "Opportunity Cost" and to illustrate its workings we need to go back in time.

In the era of tribal societies each independent member of the tribe shared in a common pool of knowledge: how to skin a snake, read a trail, recognize the 37 different varieties of snow, identify edible and inedible plants, build a shelter, start a fire. This knowledge was essential to individual and group survival; it was communal property shared among all group members and passed down through the generations.

In contrast, in our modern era, we experience an extreme specialization of knowledge with each labour role requiring the possession of unique education and knowledge. You, the reader, remain dependent on the kindness of others. You don't know how to grow your own food, repair your car, program a computer, make your own clothes, find the pole star and navigate from x to Y, apply a poultice, start your own war. You are reliant on others. The vast majority of Americans are incapable of avoiding a self-destructive diet. This form of mass dependency goes by the name of "progress."

Critical to our modern era is the principle of opportunity cost first described by Bastiat. If you spend your time earning credits in computer programming then you cannot spend the same amount of time earning credits in organic farming. The opportunity cost of learning six units of python is six units of learning how to capture and cook a python. The seven years spent obtaining a doctorate in economics is done at the cost of spending the same seven years understanding the laws of physics, or the geologic structure of shale gas reservoirs, or how to combat a structure fire, captain a deep sea vessel, or treat hypothermia. In short, the opportunity cost of a seven year economics degree is seven years of lost opportunity to engage in any other area of study; the more you know about economics the less you know about any other topic. As your education progresses you invariably come to know more and more about less and less. Once you acquire enough education you will know absolutely everything about almost nothing. You will be an "expert."

The extreme specialization of contemporary society results in the creation of a population increasingly ignorant of any topic outside of its own extremely limited area of specialization. Modernity results in a society that is increasingly ignorant. If you do not believe this then please, go make your own shoes. Blend your own gasoline. Perform your own Heimlich manoeuvre. Gather your own mongongo nuts.

This state of intense ignorance is compounded by the extreme time demands found in modern industrial society. Tribal society was a time of comparative leisure. A study undertaken in the 1960s found the ǃKung worked only 12 hours a week to survive, a small fraction of the weekly survival hours required in modern society once commute times are factored in. In the modern era the greatest scarcity is time; few feel they have enough. The opportunity cost of knowledge is not seen, or understood. Even the professed "economic experts" fail to understand the application of a fundamental theorem underpinning their own discipline.

A society exhibiting severe opportunity cost ignorance (OCI) demonstrates extreme dependence on "official" explanations. It takes time to fully understand complex modern issues. Since the opportunity cost of this understanding is a reduction in recreational time, or other essential pursuits, it is easier to simply accept whatever the "approved experts," or "talking heads," say.

The result is a population increasingly vulnerable to manipulation via opinion formation initiatives. As stated by uncle tungsten | Jun 12 2023 2:42 utc | 64 - "IMO the largest contributor is the concentration of media ownership [...leading to...] a hugely unified propaganda wall."

The average citizen lacks the time to fully investigate false claims made on the part of the state, or industry. It is not until the issue becomes so unmistakeably evident (as in the recent US case of "beer transvestitism") that the public begins to rebel.

Opportunity cost ignorance has both micro and macro effects. The micro effects are demonstrated in reports:
Which highlighted how NATO instructors were training Ukrainian fighters on weapon systems the instructors themselves had no clue how to load or handle. Photos showed NATO instructors incorrectly teaching AFU how to load DShK machine guns, not to mention with incorrect ammo types.

As a result, following the instructional course conducted with the NATO instructors' help, Ukrainian machine gunners don't even know how to properly load their heavy machineguns' ammunition belts, says volunteer fighter Roman Donik.

SOURCE:
https://simplicius76.substack.com/p/analysis-of-kofman-lees-urgent-new?utm_source=substack&utm_medium=email

So you have groups of men being incorrectly trained and then sent to their deaths in the conflict zone. One is forced to ask "Whose side is NATO on?"

The macro level effects are equally pernicious. Opportunity cost ignorance permits the inversion of reality such that political and industrial elites engage in wholly self defeating behaviours such as the present day German de-industrialization, actions advancing western social collapse, or the unending supply of arms and money to a UkroReich which carries out pogroms against its own citizens in the name of protecting western democracy.

The lead quote is from a 1946 Orwell essay. Mr Blair was forecasting our current future well before 1984.

Today, no one today reads Orwell. His prose is uncomfortable, even useless. Who has the time to learn how to shoot an elephant? No one wants to understand "the real motives for which despotic governments act." And that is most unfortunate for it is not true that "ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free." Nothing inscribed on the halls of the proud "We lie, We Cheat, We Steal" CIA is likely to be true.

The truth will kill you. It will do so instantly in one incandescent thunderflash and ever slowly, slowly, as you fumble to insert rounds of incorrect calibre into your ancient DShK.

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 14 2023 15:59 utc | 63

As a Frenchman, I can say that arming Ukraine faster and harder is indeed the message of the day broadcast by the tax-money-payers funded news.

I've been listening to the 24-hour news channels, especially LCI and France24, for the past 48 hours. The discourse has changed slightly, and acknowledging the failures of the Ukrainian offensive has only one justification, that "the west isn’t sending enough, FAST enough..."

Today, a retired general said that F16s had to be delivered immediately. That it wouldn't be hard for pilots who might be mercenaries to fly them, and operate and maintain them from nearby countries without becoming belligerents.

These people are, of course, dangerous lunatics. But the tweet campaign is only there to kill resistance to an obvious untruth.

There was even an expert to reassure us that, if we'd sending "enough, fast enoughg" more weapons, the war would already be over.

Unfortunately, I no longer have any doubts. As I wrote in a commentary a day or two ago, the resounding failure of the Ukrainian offensive may well be the wish of those who want to force NATO into World War III.

Nothing can stop them.

Except a massive anti-war movement that turns off the spigot of use of tax payer money for decades.
No more money for wars.

Posted by: La Bastille | Jun 14 2023 16:00 utc | 64

Re: Posted by: The Accountant | Jun 14 2023 13:49 utc | 1

Aurelien with their current thoughts on the Ukraine issue

Round Two? There Is No Round Two

Aurelien

In addition, history does not furnish many promising examples of success.

In Algeria, the French constructed the Challe and Morice Lines, which effectively prevented the nationalists from infiltrating fighters into the country from Tunisia.

A generation later, the apartheid regime in South Africa was able to use technical and human resources, and the vast spaces of Namibia and the Western Cape, to make infiltration of the ANC’s military forces from Angola massively costly. Veterans tell of losing 30-50% of their forces before they even crossed onto their own country.

Some very strange examples to use to assert that Russian occupation of Ukraine will overcome any nascent Ukrainian insurgency!!

Does Aurelien know what happened to the French occupation of Algeria?!?

Does Aurelien know what happened to the Nationalist Government in South Africa?!?

Very very strange.

Posted by: Julian | Jun 14 2023 16:03 utc | 65

Ted Kaczynski, a.k.a. the unibomber, died by "suicide" a few days ago in a U.S. jail. Was it really a suicide, or was it something else considering the new emphasis on A.I. taking over our society, and Kaczynski having been a key protagonist against A.I. having warned against much of what is going on right now. Maybe the establishment thought to do him in before he becomes a martyr in the eyes of the public? Well, not only do we see A.I. style astroturfing on blogs, but also we see a good amount "astroturf style" bot generated language proliferating through state, national, and international legislatioin all across the globe. Take for example this LGBQT movement going around these days. If humans were in firm control I don't think that would be spreading as fast as it is right now.

Posted by: bobbby | Jun 14 2023 16:03 utc | 66

"Tax money is only needed to pay the interest on the debt. Once there is not sufficient tax intake to pay interest, it is game on."

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 14 2023 15:51 utc | 60

Nope doesn't work like that in the US nothing but a fiction.

Show me the actual accounting that shows how taxes collected pays the interest payments ? You can't no matter how hard you look because it does not exist.

The Euro and $ are two completely different monetary systems.

I know for 100% fact being British not a single penny of the taxes I've paid went to Ukraine or paid interest on the UK national savings held as UK bonds ( gilts ) that you call the national debt.

I can show you the actual accounting that takes place to prove it. ALL income taxes collected in the UK are destroyed.

B>https://gimms.org.uk/2021/02/21/an-accounting-model-of-the-uk-exchequer/

The Euro is completely different they gave up their sovereignty: It is different in a HUGE way.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XGp6CUAAnO4

Posted by: Derek Henry | Jun 14 2023 16:05 utc | 67

Posted by: Roger | Jun 13 2023 19:35 utc | 221

This excellent post by Roger elaborates on the thesis in my prior post 63:

QUOTE
From the linked article "This, I would hazard, is Kyeyune’s real critique of Colby and other realists: that not only is the United States collapsing as an imperial power, with all that implies, but her realists are not recognizing it. This is either because they don’t see it or because they fear doing so openly is an act of political suicide in Washington DC. Not only that, but accepting the premise of imperial collapse—i.e., the end of the Western-led liberal international order—means that a great number of contemporary policy debates are rendered moot. The life’s work of too many academics, theoreticians, think tank wonks, writers, and others are at stake."

When the Soviet Union collapsed so many careers in the academic-policy complex (as well s the MIC) were threatened and new threats had to be created. Its why the academics were so happy to jump on the Russia-Russia-Russia gravy train. They will simply reinvent themselves again, they are skilled shapeshifters who would readily serve communists, Nazis, and anyone else who provides them with a good career; with a few notable exceptions. As Gramsci noted, the vast majority of the increase in intellectual roles since the mid-1800s has been for the control of the population through the hegemonic culture, not for the actual running of the economy and society. Same in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany and modern China and any other industrialized nation.

The realists very much understand that criticism of the political economy of the US, the imperialist nature of that state, and of Israel are off limits if they want to keep or develop their careers. Realism makes the internal political economy disappear under the conceptualization of the "state", and imperialism is hidden by the conception of sovereign states interacting in the international realm, a "society of states". Its also a sociopathic view of states, treating them just like the sociopathic market actors within the make believe "market" of mainstream economics. The realists will keep bleating their message until it become a negative for their careers, which will not be any time soon.
END QUOTE

Posted by: Sushi | Jun 14 2023 16:07 utc | 68

@shаdоwbаnnеd | Jun 14 2023 13:52 utc | 13

The USSR collapsed in large part because it lost the meme war....

I usually agree with your posts and am grateful for all the valuable insights your comments bring, but where does one begin with the above? Lenin was undoubtedly the most advanced political analyst history has ever witnessed - but what good was it for socialism when the bulk of the population could not see through, nor resist (especially after losing ~28 million people, some of whom had to have been politically advanced party members), revisionism? The CCCP's collapse was the inability of the party to see through and resist Krushchev. All the most sophisticated propaganda in the world cant neutralize the most blatant contradictions that imperialism produces externally or internally. Hollywood does have an effect but it's not as deterministic as you make it sound, otherwise how does one account for people like you, me (I'm in the US), or others on this site who seem to be anti-imperialists? Hollywood and memes deserve their analysis and criticisms, but I see that as more a cultural issue. The collapse of the CCCP is an ideological question, eh? Lots of people say communism is dead. But communism is an ideology and to say ideology is dead is to imply that capitalism is dead. As long as there's capitalism, there'll be communists. The collapse of the CCCP means that the Soviets failed socialism and, obviously, socialism (that built the industry that defeated the combined industries of fascist Germany, the UK, Europe and the US) didn't fail the Soviets...

Posted by: zeke2u | Jun 14 2023 16:08 utc | 69

Are we sure these are .gov trolls at work, at not just bots?

Posted by: Monos | Jun 14 2023 16:10 utc | 70

@ Lemming #62

At the 2005 World Summit, all Heads of State and Government affirmed the responsibility to protect populations from genocide, war crimes, ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. The responsibility to protect (commonly referred to as ‘RtoP’) rests upon three pillars of equal standing: the responsibility of each State to protect its populations (pillar I); the responsibility of the international community to assist States in protecting their populations (pillar II); and the responsibility of the international community to protect when a State is manifestly failing to protect its populations (pillar III).

Posted by: La Bastille | Jun 14 2023 16:15 utc | 71

Russian peacekeepers were invited by the internationally recognized (UNSCR 2202) republics of DRP and LPR to prevent the ethnic clearing of 10 million people.

No invasion

Posted by: Exile | Jun 14 2023 16:16 utc | 72

Posted by: Derek Henry | Jun 14 2023 14:55 utc | 38

I think the point is that the money could have been used domestically.

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | Jun 14 2023 16:21 utc | 73

Posted by: Occasional poster | Jun 14 2023 15:12 utc | 45

I had several, ‘tell it as it really is sources’ that I would regularly visit and ARrse was one of them. As soon as the SMO kicked off it became a cheerleader for the official Ukraine narrative, gone were the usual cynics who’d been telling the truth about the British Army, to be replaced with Bellingcat clones. It was deeply disappointing and I reasoned that most of the posters had zero experience of a peer to peer conflict, hence the reversion to stereotypical analysis; however, I now think the website had been infiltrated (it’s previously caused embarrassment to several administrations) prior to the SMO.

I noticed this syndrome on other forums, suddenly the posters performed a volte face and all started towing the same official line. I get the distinct feeling that the media strategy for the Ukraine conflict, was thought through more thoroughly than the military/economic one, a hallmark of progressive planning and execution.

Posted by: Milites | Jun 14 2023 16:21 utc | 74

" Not sure where you're going with that, but just to clarify - the EU and US run huge deficits and all these wunderwaffen are paid for with printed money. "

" Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 14 2023 15:51 utc | 60"

it isn't....

Ukraine has an account at the BOE, ECB, FED just about every central bank in the world. They mark up the Ukraine account using an index finger and computer keyboard not in Ukrainian currency in their own currencies. By changing numbers on a screen in the same way a goal is scored in a football match. It changes from a 0 to a 1 on the scoreboard. Nobody asks the score keeper where he got the 1 from.

So Ukraine ends up with £'s as at the BOE. $'s at the FED and €'s at the ECB etc, etc,

Then they are told to spend them on buying weapons and other goods and services they need. From the UK, US, Eurozone etc, etc,

Not a tax payer in sight they never even contacted the tax office to do this.

Then when everything is destroyed by Russia.The BOE will say those £'s we gave you we want them back. The FED will say those $'s we gave you we want them back. The ECB will say those €'s we gave you we want them back.

Tell you what, we know you will never be able to pay us back so see that farmland you have and gas and all your industry and anything that isn't nailed down we now own it and we will extract rent from the Ukrainian population. At prices we decide.

P.S.Thanks for funding our weapons industry and buying all those goods and services we offered that put you in our debtors prison.

Again with not a western tax payer in sight. Not even in the room.

Posted by: Derek Henry | Jun 14 2023 16:21 utc | 75

Posted by: La Bastille | Jun 14 2023 16:15 utc | 71

Wait, you're claiming R2P as a valid claim to intrude into any country without calling it an invasion?

so when the USA claimed R2P to invade Syria, Libya and Yougoslavia it was not an invasion, just a protection of "minorities"?

Posted by: Lemming | Jun 14 2023 16:22 utc | 76

"Sour" - in the previous thread you raise perhaps the most important point relating to the SMO.

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/06/kakhovadam/comments/page/5/#comments

That important point is "Who started it?". I'd say the only important point. If we don't get that right the rest goes by the board.

In reply to my comment 400 you advance the contrary view in your comment 422:-

"As a reminder, days before full scale invasion on Ukraine the Russians "evinced no desire" to invade Ukraine, months before annexation of Crimea they "evinced no desire" to annex Crimea etc etc. So either they're lying or can't really make their mind in long term, and in both cases all of their neighbors assume the worst possible scenario and prepare for it."

The Russian military incursion into Ukraine on February 24th 2022 may be called an invasion, or an SMO, or whatever term one chooses. But in reality it was a pre-emptive attack on the Kiev forces in order to forestall the risk of those forces invading the Donbass.

Before that pre-emptive attack the Russians had been attempting to get Minsk 2 observed. Had Minsk 2 been observed, or had even a start been made on its observance by ceasing the shelling and moving the Kiev forces back from the LoC, then this war would not have happened.

That this point is important is in fact agreed both by those who think the West is in the wrong and by those who don't. From the very start of the SMO to the present day we find President Biden and the European leaders and officials stating repeatedly that the war was "unprovoked".

What a lot to hang on a single word. Yet it does all hang on that single word. Had the Russians moved without immediate and serious provocation, then they would have been in the wrong. But it was the West that forced that provocation so we are in the wrong.

I hope that clears that all-important point up.

....................

If I might point to a consequence of that all important point. It now seems to me that most in the European electorates are convinced that it's the Russians who are in the wrong. I don't believe that general conviction will now be altered.

As a direct consequence of that conviction we in Europe are now in for Cold War II. And hundreds of thousands of men will be dead who would not otherwise have been dead. Such a lot to hang on that single word, "unprovoked". Do you now see why the point is so important?

Posted by: English Outsider | Jun 14 2023 16:31 utc | 77

"Are we sure these are .gov trolls at work, at not just bots?

Posted by: Monos | Jun 14 2023 16:10 utc | 70"

The ones listed in OP seem like a lazy low budget troll farm. Most likely a Ukranian Babushka operation.

With the use of AI(chatgtp,etc) you can now actually formulate original posts that are almost impossible to distinguish from real posts. And one guy with a few spare minutes can do this and generate and post millions of original comments a day.

The US government 100% has this capability and uses it.

All you need is accounts. Those can easily be obtained in a market where you can buy 100,000 accounts for a few bucks.

Posted by: Comandante | Jun 14 2023 16:32 utc | 78

"Sour" - in the previous thread you raise perhaps the most important point relating to the SMO.

https://www.moonofalabama.org/2023/06/kakhovadam/comments/page/5/#comments

That important point is "Who started it?". I'd say the only important point. If we don't get that right the rest goes by the board.

In reply to my comment 400 you advance the contrary view in your comment 422:-

"As a reminder, days before full scale invasion on Ukraine the Russians "evinced no desire" to invade Ukraine, months before annexation of Crimea they "evinced no desire" to annex Crimea etc etc. So either they're lying or can't really make their mind in long term, and in both cases all of their neighbors assume the worst possible scenario and prepare for it."

The Russian military incursion into Ukraine on February 24th 2022 may be called an invasion, or an SMO, or whatever term one chooses. But in reality it was a pre-emptive attack on the Kiev forces in order to forestall the risk of those forces invading the Donbass.

Before that pre-emptive attack the Russians had been attempting to get Minsk 2 observed. Had Minsk 2 been observed, or had even a start been made on its observance by ceasing the shelling and moving the Kiev forces back from the LoC, then this war would not have happened.

That this point is important is in fact agreed both by those who think the West is in the wrong and by those who don't. From the very start of the SMO to the present day we find President Biden and the European leaders and officials stating repeatedly that the war was "unprovoked".

What a lot to hang on a single word. Yet it does all hang on that single word. Had the Russians moved without immediate and serious provocation, then they would have been in the wrong. But it was the West that forced that provocation so we are in the wrong.

I hope that clears that all-important point up.

....................

If I might point to a consequence of that all important point. It now seems to me that most in the European electorates are convinced that it's the Russians who are in the wrong. I don't believe that general conviction will now be altered.

As a direct consequence of that conviction we in Europe are now in for Cold War II. And hundreds of thousands of men will be dead who would not otherwise have been dead. Such a lot to hang on that single word, "unprovoked". Do you now see why the point is so important?

Posted by: English Outsider | Jun 14 2023 16:33 utc | 79

This would be funny if it wasn’t so true.

Many years ago, on an American TV show called “Saturday Night Live,” they did a parody TV advert for The Amazing Alexander, a hypnotist who performed his show on Broadway. Each person interviewed after the show for testimonial purposes recited like hypnotised robots the same three lines:

“I loved it. It was much better than Cats. I’m going to see it again again.”

Posted by: Cato the Uncensored | Jun 14 2023 16:33 utc | 80

Posted by: Lemming | Jun 14 2023 15:57 utc | 62

Agree to disagree, for in my mind I can imagine an invasion of Ukraine, and imo the world would have been on the edge of its seats had they gone with one, because the casualties and destruction would have been like a year of the European theater of World War II in 1944 encapsulated into a few months, and within the borders of Ukraine. The West might have thought of making the most dire response to counter that, which along with humanitarian considerations, is part of why such an option never seemed likely. The Russian people would have thought an invasion an abhorrent idea, at least not until other far less drastic options had been tried first.

An invasion would have started a war, the kind where you destroy strategic targets like the administrative centers of cities, and you destroy the electric and water supplies beyond repair. All stuff that Russia could do if it was determined to invade.

Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 14 2023 16:34 utc | 81

@ Biswapriya Purkayast | Jun 14 2023 14:55 utc | 37

according to the armchair generals (The Faker, the aforementioned Martyanov, and their worshippers like Hack) the Russian general staff can make no mistakes, so it's not surprising that Martyanov didn't mention that part of Putin's speech, not at all.

That's not what said Martyanov and probably Hack or ....me.

Just:
Russian Army isn't the same League.

A General, even a general Staff can make mistakes.
The Russian Army "not".

It's a living organism, well rooted in history and training hard.
A mistake is just an opportunity to built back better.

Posted by: La Bastille | Jun 14 2023 16:37 utc | 82

In the real world, the Ukrainian offensive is floundering and without NATO intervening directly Russia will continue to achieve their goals. Russia has comprehensively demonstrated the superiority of their weapons systems..or perhaps better said they have demonstrated the inferiority of Western systems.

If NATO does intervene..most likely though another cats paw like Poland..I expect their fate to be the same as the first three Ukrainian armies.

In the world of Western media Russia is somehow simultaneously evil and terrifyingly threatening to roll over all of Europe, and incompetent, armed only with shovels and about to collapse 'Any Day Now'(tm). The difference between isn't just stark, it's a chasm.

All of this will start to become more clear in the coming months as the scale of the strategic miscalculation of the West becomes impossible to hide. We are led in the West by intellectual pygmies and thieves.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 14 2023 16:40 utc | 83

The USSR collapsed in large part because it lost the meme war....

I usually agree with your posts and am grateful for all the valuable insights your comments bring, but where does one begin with the above? Lenin was undoubtedly the most advanced political analyst history has ever witnessed - but what good was it for socialism when the bulk of the population could not see through, nor resist (especially after losing ~28 million people, some of whom had to have been politically advanced party members), revisionism? The CCCP's collapse was the inability of the party to see through and resist Krushchev. All the most sophisticated propaganda in the world cant neutralize the most blatant contradictions that imperialism produces externally or internally. Hollywood does have an effect but it's not as deterministic as you make it sound, otherwise how does one account for people like you, me (I'm in the US), or others on this site who seem to be anti-imperialists? Hollywood and memes deserve their analysis and criticisms, but I see that as more a cultural issue. The collapse of the CCCP is an ideological question, eh? Lots of people say communism is dead. But communism is an ideology and to say ideology is dead is to imply that capitalism is dead. As long as there's capitalism, there'll be communists. The collapse of the CCCP means that the Soviets failed socialism and, obviously, socialism (that built the industry that defeated the combined industries of fascist Germany, the UK, Europe and the US) didn't fail the Soviets...
Posted by: zeke2u | Jun 14 2023 16:08 utc | 69

But Khrushchev was one of the first high-profile victims of the meme war. Remember how we travelled to the US, was in awe with what he saw, and then a lot of disastrous decisions followed as a direct result of that trip?

Posted by: shаdоwbаnnеd | Jun 14 2023 16:42 utc | 84

The American 'War on Intelligence' has achieved total success, tautological comment threads easily roll over any remnants of critical thinking.

It's going to get worse, before it gets worse...

Posted by: Eric Blair | Jun 14 2023 16:43 utc | 85

a retired general said that F16s had to be delivered immediately. That it wouldn't be hard for pilots who might be mercenaries to fly them, and operate and maintain them from nearby countries without becoming belligerents.
Posted by: La Bastille | Jun 14 2023 16:00 utc | 64

He said "nearby countries". Macaron wants a proxy of a proxy. Nothing new, it's the only reason all bordering countries were bribed into nato. For the present day, the problem of having proxies of Ukr proxy is the result of a failed smo, which should have been turned into at least anti-terrorist about a year ago. Since first proxy was barely harmed and can freely hit anything they please with no reaction from the great minds of the general staff, now there's a list of more wannabe proxies, all were promised imaginary rewards after a very hypothetical victory.

Posted by: rk | Jun 14 2023 16:44 utc | 86

I posted an FYI on the Week in Review thread related to this sort of thing. Here's the context:

"On June 15, from 15:00 p.m. to 16:20 p.m., the St Petersburg International Economic Forum (SPIEF, Congress Centre, Conference Hall A, Presidium 10, Hall 110, Expoforum Exhibition and Convention Centre) will host a roundtable discussion titled Digital Dictatorship vs. Digital Sovereignty: Challenges, Risks and Opportunities, with the participation of Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Maria Zakharova."

A bit more info and links are within that FYI.

Posted by: karlof1 | Jun 14 2023 16:45 utc | 87

78. It doesn't require much sophistication to script out the creation of accounts, even an entire automated bot dashboard. ChatGPT or similar though is really going to shit in the punchbowl as the posts will become indistinguishable from organic opinions. It's a shit show all the way down.

The comment about how important truth is to human decision making was brilliant .. those who rule us will come to regret the implementation of Ministries of Truth but not before things get a lot more like Gilliams 'Brazil'.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | Jun 14 2023 16:46 utc | 88

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 14 2023 15:27 utc | 50

So these types of disinfo/astroturfing campaigns really only aim to reinforce the status quo, and keep the peasants from thinking about grabbing a pitchfork.

In this narrow sense they may be of marginal use, but keep in mind that as the gap between reality and the make-believe stories of Foggy Bottom and Langley widens, there is a risk of a sudden shock of "cognitive dissonance" when reality becomes unavoidable.

Well said.

Propaganda is a reverse blade sword wielded against it's bearer, not against the enemy.

Posted by: Arch Bungle | Jun 14 2023 16:49 utc | 89

so when the USA claimed R2P to invade Syria, Libya and Yougoslavia it was not an invasion, just a protection of "minorities"?

Posted by: Lemming | Jun 14 2023 16:22 utc | 76

The difference is whether you’re invited to protect or not. The other difference is whether you’ve honestly attempted to solve the issue without warfare.

And the big difference is how you behave in protecting. The verdict is not 100% written for Russia in Ukraine, but it came with massive humanitarian aid efforts and has been actively rebuilding while the conflict goes on, your examples of the US and friends in those other places don’t meet that last, big difference in action that reveals intent.

Posted by: Lex | Jun 14 2023 16:53 utc | 90

Seems we're more or less in agreement. Printing of money is digital these days. You've described the situation accurately, IMO.

Tell you what, we know you will never be able to pay us back so see that farmland you have and gas and all your industry and anything that isn't nailed down we now own it and we will extract rent from the Ukrainian population. At prices we decide.

The problem with that is what happens when Russia controls the farmland, gas, and all Ukrainian industry is destroyed? You cannot extract rent from an asset you don't own. Or one that does not exist.

Posted by: Ghost of Zanon | Jun 14 2023 16:55 utc | 91

Posted by: Lex | Jun 14 2023 16:53 utc | 89

Which is why I'm not mentioning the territories of the LNR and DNR in my original post. But the Zaparozhye, Kharkov and Kherson oblasts are not part of this call for help. So, in essence, an invasion.

Posted by: Lemming | Jun 14 2023 16:58 utc | 92

@ Lemming | Jun 14 2023 16:22 utc | 76

Nato Carpet Bombing in Libya or Serbia ... And don't forget Bagdad and Gaza....
And France in Mali or Tchad or Niger.

If you are looking for War Crimes

But the question Remain The Same

Was "Post-Maidan-Ukraine" standing or 1st and 2nd pillars? No

Posted by: La Bastille | Jun 14 2023 17:06 utc | 93

Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 14 2023 16:34 utc | 80

I agree with your description that a total war on Ukraine would have been definitely something different than the limited operation it is currently. This is a different matter than the definition of what an "invasion" is, however.

Whatever the means engaged (total war vs. limited intervention), an invasion is when a country is putting military units inside a country without its consent. Examples: USA in Syria (few troops, one base), USA in Iraq (full deployment of existing troops, limited industrial commitment, no conscription), USA in Japan (full deployment of existing troops, full industrial commitment, levée-en-masse conscription). All invasions, different means.

Posted by: Lemming | Jun 14 2023 17:07 utc | 94

Lemming you're a moron. All of south Ukraine including Odessa and Nikolaev are historically russian-founded cities, with pre-2014 majorly ethnic-russian, russian speaking population. All these regions voted for Yanukovich. It is just that they are farming and sea-trading dominanted, they have little urban and dense terrain that is beneficial for rebels and is found a plenty in Donbas, so rebellion wasn't rised there. And the population is slightly smaller. (Before WW2, the cities were also majorly populated by jews, greeks and germans, together even more than russians. But there were no Ukrainians.) Actually learn about the subject before spewing wrong stuff that is cartoonishly based entirely on simple assumptions you also make on the rest of the world.

Posted by: A200 | Jun 14 2023 17:07 utc | 95

Speaking of conjuring up a preferred reality in regards all things Russia, "CIA WARNED Ukraine Not To Attack Nordstream".

I have to wonder if I'm seeing "a modified limited hangout" here, and now to also invoke Lee Harvey Oswald, Ukraine is getting set up to be the patsy, standing alone to twist in the wind. And Zelenskyy might want to remember what happened to Oswald, the guy who knew too much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limited_hangout#Modified_limited_hangout

CIA WARNED Ukraine Not To Attack Nordstream | Counter Points

2,693 views Jun 14, 2023 #news #politics #youtube
Ryan and Emily discuss new reports that the US warned Ukraine not to bomb Nordstream right before it was destroyed.

https://youtu.be/a3Ed379SXvM

Posted by: Babel-17 | Jun 14 2023 17:12 utc | 96

Posted by: La Bastille | Jun 14 2023 17:06 utc | 92

You are still arguing about morals.

I am saying that the word "invasion" makes no references to morality, and that it is only a description of the physical act of putting military units inside another country against its consent, whether it is deemed moral or not. And a good thing it is, because what's moral usually depends on the side of the propaganda war you're currently on.

You may quote from the déclaration des droits de l'homme however you want, but this quote specifically has been used by the USA to justify all its "colored revolutions" in the Middle East. And it is about the right to revolt, not a definition of what an invasion is.

Posted by: Lemming | Jun 14 2023 17:14 utc | 97

I regularly browse on quora. The website is infested with fake CIA/NAFO backed propaganda troll accounts. You notice them when they swarm the comment section of any pro-Russian or any thoughtful, rational & logical essay about the conflict like termites.

The CIA/NAFO coordinator never even bothered to update manual in a year which is tedious drivel about "Putin's unprovoked invasion of a sovereign nation with Orcs murdering, raping, torturing innocent civilians and children, blah, blah, blah".

No. The content is certainly not AI generated. ChatGPT is far more sophisticated than the vacuous twaddle from NAFO.

Posted by: FieryButMostPeaceful | Jun 14 2023 17:21 utc | 98

Posted by: A200 | Jun 14 2023 17:07 utc | 94

Not being able to distinguish between "historical claims" and the definition of what an invasion is means you live in a fantasy world.
Germany has lots of "historical claims" to lands in France, Poland, and Austria. Would an armed attack against the territories of the aforementioned countries constitute an invasion? of course it would.

"Lemming you're a moron" -> Thanks, and you as well. You will be ignored from now on.

Posted by: Lemming | Jun 14 2023 17:22 utc | 99

«whatever good reasons it has (and it has good reasons), it is correct to say that Russia IS invading Ukraine, as far as the Zaparozhye, Kherson and Kharkov oblasts are concerned. Invasion happens when one country's armed forces enter another without permission, which is what is happening.»

This has never happened: The Autonomous Republic of Crimea and «Zaparozhye, Kherson and Kharkov oblasts» do not belong to the government or the people in Kiev or Lvov, they belong to the people of Crimea, and «Zaparozhye, Kherson and Kharkov oblasts», according to the UN Charter and international law on self-determination.

At some point those people declared their autonomy, and on 9 May 2014 the Kiev/Lvov troops started to massacre them i, and then they declared independence, the ukarainian started a vicious war of aggression against them.

The Russian Federation decided to not-intervene in a war between sovereign and independent states until 2022, when the people of those oblasts requested a defensive alliance with the RF, and the RF agreed.

After several days of continuing ukrainian attacks against their allies the RF sent a small military contingent to reinforce their defense, and help them counter-attack.

Later after the independent republics asked for and obtained membership of the RF the government of Kiev/Lvov decided to start a war of aggression against the RF itself, invading their territory.

The RF under international law and custom has the right to counterattack against the invaders, up to the polish borders of course.

Posted by: Blissex | Jun 14 2023 17:25 utc | 100