Moon of Alabama Brecht quote
May 5, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-107

Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict.

The current open thread for other issues is here.

Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.

Comments

I am British and live in England though I was not born in the UK. I am married, have children and grandchildren. I realise I will die one day but don’t wish to die. Similarly, I’d wish my children and their children long and healthy lives.
Despite this, I can’t wait till this perfidious, immoral country gets its come-uppance, even though I, my family and many other innocents people may die or be injured in the process. So long as those bastards in power, who covertly start, support and prosecute wars all over the world to advance the interests of the less-than-one-percent get bombed to fuck, I think it’d be worth it.
Today was the coronation of Charles III. To listen to the non-stop, sycophantic BS on this arrogant, duplicitous island, that has caused so much suffering in its diseased existence, was unavoidable. Every radio and tv commentator was almost drowning in their own drool as they waxed on about how proud we should feel about our glorious armed forces as they marched like toys down the horse-piss sodden Mall. And how grateful we should be for the crumbs the Royals and their cruel, greedy hangers-on throw to us, the great unwashed. Any protest, however mild, was banned under threat of new public order legislation, rushed through by an unelected government. Yet we are told, repeatedly, that for this, we should be thankful. Fuck off.

Posted by: Vragtes | May 6 2023 17:58 utc | 401

Posted by: Vragtes | May 6 2023 17:58 utc | 405
I read about one guy in England who was threatened with arrest for holding up a blank sign at an appearance by Charles.

Posted by: pretzelattack | May 6 2023 18:06 utc | 402

Put down the bottle, you’re embarrassing yourself. I guess technically killing millions of your won people is not a genocide.
Posted by: Deplorable Commissar | May 5 2023 19:10 utc | 82
Killing your own people is like a civil war. 1863. Not your fucking business.

Posted by: RB | May 6 2023 18:10 utc | 403

Ok, what’s your point? I thought all Russian language speakers were de-facto Russians, one of the justifications for the SMO?
Posted by: Longhorn | May 6 2023 0:11 utc | 177
Stalin’s mother tongue was Georgian, do you see the difference?

Posted by: RB | May 6 2023 18:42 utc | 404

Vragtes | May 6 2023 17:58 utc | 405
I am guessing from your post that you are one of the darker-skinned varieties of His Majesty’s subjects. Your kind complains about “feeling like a minority” while choosing to surround yourselves with lighter-skinned peoples. So return to the tropic homeland that created you and heal your mental anxieties, surrounded by those of your own hue and the squalor it inevitably breeds. We are all God’s creation, as are the beasts of the field, Whilst you reside among those not of your kind you will never find peace, and our country will never heal itself.

Posted by: Hugh | May 6 2023 19:05 utc | 405

Vragtes | May 6 2023 17:58 utc | 405
“I am British and live in England though I was not born in the UK. I am married, have children and grandchildren…I can’t wait till this perfidious, immoral country gets its come-uppance, even though I, my family and many other innocents people may die or be injured in the process.”
I can see other countries aren’t sending their best… I also think UK foreign policy is utterly wrong-headed, but I have no desire to see my people slaughtered.

Posted by: YetAnotherAnon | May 6 2023 19:23 utc | 406

Hugh | May 6 2023 19:05 utc | 409
Take a little more water with it, holy or otherwise, and your posts may make some kind of sense. In the meantime, go and heal yourself of your “lighter-skinned” superiority complex.

Posted by: Vragtes | May 6 2023 19:24 utc | 407

Thank you. It’s more than chickenshit. The character assassination of Lira is the same totalitarian tactic used to justify and gain public support for the censorship and imprisonment of Julian Assange.
Posted by: Willow | May 6 2023 8:47 utc | 265
ffs. You mention Lira in the same breath as Assange? Get a grip.
Assange made a difference. Lira not so much.

Posted by: Drinky Crow | May 6 2023 19:37 utc | 408

At some point the loyal fans of Mr. Putin need to reflect on the man and just who he attracts and grooms as his inner circle.
This man reflects the true nature of V. Putin, and the sort of Russians that always end up in power in Roo-siah. There are exceptinal Russians, with fine sensitivies and humanity, but alas this type NEVER ends up in power in Russia.
So this vile man is just lifting the skirt on the psyche of the Russian imperialists. Not pretty, agreed.
In other news, someone is claiming they have shot down a Kinzhal.
Posted by: passingthrough | May 6 2023 10:59 utc | 300
My god, clueless and moronic American. Give me the name of a great American president. Give me the name of a great European politician in power. Wow!
Putin outclasses all of them, except maybe de Gaulle.

Posted by: RB | May 6 2023 19:54 utc | 409

This is rather notable, I had caught just a few brief mentions on TG channels, strange it wasn’t played up more. I find this a decent channel:
It was a Brilliant OP NATO instructors were Destroyed by the Russian Aerospace Forces in Chernihiv
The vid says “raid behind enemy lines” so RF planes managed to fly in and out of Ukrainian territory? That would be a very big deal, anyone have more info?

Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | May 6 2023 19:54 utc | 410

If ALL the Kremlin keeps their daughters and mistresses in the West why should I give a damn about Russia? Lavrov acts and looks more like a Lebanese bon vivant than Russian (he is Armenian).
Here is his wonderful Pennsylvanian daughter who speaks Russian with an American accent. How can any of you trust this? Someone should have told old Sergei that his daughter was getting boned by the enemy. Who does that?
https://bwog.com/2022/04/columbia-graduate-sanctioned-for-connections-to-russian-government/
I do support Russian Muslims. Not the government. Governments are fake. Illusions. They change. Russian Orthodoxy changed itself into a dead religion. I know because I was raised Orthodox.
Quit looking for white knights to save you – Hint: None will.

Posted by: Clyde | May 6 2023 20:11 utc | 411

The question you should be asking is; why are you such a sucker for Russian propaganda?

Posted by: Longhorn | May 6 2023 13:24 utc | 332

Posted by: West of England Andy | May 6 2023 20:35 utc | 412

The question you should be asking is; why are you such a sucker for Russian propaganda?

Posted by: Longhorn | May 6 2023 13:24 utc | 332

Posted by: West of England Andy | May 6 2023 20:35 utc | 413

With the exception of a handful of you, this place is full of lunatics. You sit behind a computer all day under a fake name and do nothing but bitch bitch bitch. Such miserable lives you live. I feel sorry for you.

Posted by: Sid Farkus | May 6 2023 20:35 utc | 414

Posted by: Longhorn | May 6 2023 13:24 utc | 332
Well, perhaps it makes a refreshing change from western propaganda? I dunno, you tell me why I’m such a sucker…
(though given the effed-up software here, I’ll understand if you don’t bother)

Posted by: West of England Andy | May 6 2023 20:38 utc | 415

@ rk, §302:
So, like Brandon, you think the Ukraine are “winning!”?

Posted by: John Marks | May 6 2023 20:49 utc | 416

passingthrough | May 6 2023 10:59 utc | 300

(Some tedious blabla) At some point the loyal fans of Mr. Putin need to reflect on the man and just who he attracts and grooms as his inner circle. (Some more tedious blabla)

Exactly !
Er, Masha, Sergei, some chinese bloke, a geezer with a beard etc . . .

Posted by: Sarlat La Canède | May 6 2023 20:55 utc | 417

Ooooh ! I just fort, ‘passingthrough’ is obviously an anagram of “dire rear” !

Posted by: Sarlat La Canède | May 6 2023 20:56 utc | 418

@ shadowbanned, §309:
Rubbish.
Putin cleansed them and most fled to London, Cyprus and other tax-havens.
They´ve beaten the NeoCon drums ever since to get more filthy luchre.
It´s well described by Alex Krainer in “Grand Deception” (Red Pill Press, 2018).

Posted by: John Marks | May 6 2023 20:58 utc | 419

@ Dacian | May 6 2023 16:03 #380
The “collapse” of the Soviets! WWII was unique in that it wasn’t just inter-imperialist – it was distorted by the presence of a socialist state. Therefore, it was also anti-socialist. In assessing the war, one must always be aware of the ferocity and scope of the international class struggle. For the first time in history the masses had seized and held state power – the historic nightmare of all ruling classes. From the new state’s birth, the world bourgeoisie was obsessed by a drive to kill it. This drive was manifested both outside and inside the CCCP and was reflected, often in subtle ways, in the Soviet intelligentsia. It was aided by the fact that revolutionaries in Russia had long concentrated on the overthrow of feudalism. Some of them, like Bukharin, wavered before the destruction of capitalism and the building of socialism. Stalin was appointed Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces and the conduct of the war, as Marshall Zhukov recognized, was from beginning to end in his hands. If Stalin had not won the fight for industrialization and defeated the Trot’s and Bukharinites, the CCCP would have become a nazi province. Had he not had the foresight to build a metallurgical industry in the Urals, the Red Armies could not have been supplied with arms. Had he not industrialized the economy and introduced mechanized farming, he would have had neither a base for producing arms nor a mass of soldiers trained in the operation of machinery. Had he not signed the non-aggression treat with Germany, the CCCP might have been attacked 22 months sooner. Had he not moved the Soviet armies into Poland, the German attack would have begun even closer to Moscow. Had he not subdued General Mannerheim’s Finland, Leningrad would have fallen. Had he not ordered the transfer of 1400 factories from west to the eas, the most massive movement of its kind in history, Russian industry would have received a possible fatal blow. Had he not built up the army and equipped it with modern arms, it would have been destroyed on the frontiers.
When the nazis invaded, Stalin, aided by other party and army leaders, developed a new strategy for modern warfare. He was able to achieve this primarily because he had a socialist and not a capitalist base from which to operate. The strategy rested on viewing the war not just from a military point of view but in its’ total implications. For instance, Stalin immediately named it the Great Patriotic War, not a War for Socialism, as it actually was, for to have done so would have narrowed support for it, both internal and internationally. He perceived that the war would not be decided by previously successful blitzkreig tactics or shock and awe but by broader factors.
Neither the US nor UK imperialists wished to see the CCCP victorious. Both hoped that the CCCP and Germany would mutually destroy each other and allow British and American imperial interests penetrate deep into Europe. They supplied the CCCP with what they thought was just enough assistance to help it to resist but not conquer the Germans. They delayed opening a second front in the hope of a Soviet-German stalemate, but delayed too long: not until the Red Army was marching into Berlin. The US & UK miscalculated because they did not understand the special strengths of a socialist state.
Anyway, to make a long story short – the CCCP, led by Stalin, defeated the nazis but at a horrific cost. Although over 10 million nazis were destroyed on the eastern front, the CCCP lost over 20 million people. Surely some of those casualties were politically astute communists. This must have had an effect, a weakening of the CP. IMHO, it goes a long way in explaining how a revisionist like Krushchev could come to power after Stalin died. Socialism didn’t fail Russia. Russia failed socialism…

Posted by: zeke2u | May 6 2023 21:08 utc | 420

@ John2007, §334:
Of course that´s what your NeoCon masters in America tell you and want you to believe.
Russia has no more interest in the Baltics or Turkestans than England in getting India back.
They know the Baltics and the Turkestans are different peoples from the Russians.
By contrast, the Ukraine is the cradle of the Russian state. “Ukrainian” is just a dialect, mutually intelligible with Russian.
So the Americans are totally unaware of reality.

Posted by: John Marks | May 6 2023 21:16 utc | 421

Sid Farkus @ 419
You sit behind a computer all day under a fake name and do nothing but bitch bitch bitch.
Some of us masterbate as well

Posted by: Tom_Q_Collins | May 6 2023 21:41 utc | 422

Posted by: willow | May 5 2023 20:00 utc | 96
Not in this universe LOL!

Posted by: sln2002 | May 6 2023 21:43 utc | 423

Posted by: Qassam | May 6 2023 12:11 utc | 314
If a Kinzhal had been shot down the ukes would be displaying pieces of it all over the media. Until proof is provided, here have some salt.

Posted by: T.D. | May 6 2023 22:29 utc | 424

#419
you judge other people’s lives
by what they post.
implying you are “above that”
by feeling sorry for them.
you are living “the life”

Posted by: Dingo | May 6 2023 23:47 utc | 425

there’s been seven-hundred years
of western civilizations colonizing
the world.
if this conflict in ukraine is the
beginning of a power shift.
it’s just the start, of multiple
wars, lasting many years.

Posted by: Dingo | May 7 2023 3:41 utc | 426

«a certain layer of the late Soviet elites made a deal with the West to surrender without a fight and hand over the USSR’s resources in exchange for a percentage on the rent extraction flow that would allow them to then live in unimaginable under communism luxury.»
I suspect that you are confusing the outcome with the intention, because that was indeed the outcome, but it happened *after* the collapse, and it happened because it is the standard operating procedure of the anglo-american elites towards the vassals: buy the loyalty of the local upper-middle and upper classes by protecting them from “socialism” in exchange of a share of the rent extraction this enables from the lower classes of the vassals.
The collapse of the USSR had a complex set of reasons, but the trigger was the failed coup of the old-timers, and the following wish of the whole russian elites to get rid of a structure that gave too much power to the periphery. What they did not realize is that periphery were buffer states that they needed, just like today the PRC needs the RF and Kazakhstan as buffer states.
My impression is the some of the RF elites when they dissolved the USSR expected NATO to dissolve as well, and the RF to enter peacefully into a multipolar global trading system, and did not expect the USA to keep pushing hard. They expected more the attitude of Bush sr. and Trump than that of Clinton, Bush Jr. and Obama.
Perhaps because they thought that the enmity of the USA against the USSR was due to it being communist, and would end when the RF stopped being communist and became a capitalist “partner”, when instead it was due to geostrategic reasons that had applied to the Russian Empire before, and would still apply to the RF after its turn to capitalism.
My guess that their intention was they would keep control of the RF and live in capitalist luxury indeed, but as masters of their own powerful state, like the chinese elites have done, not as mere vassals of the USA.

Posted by: Blissex | May 7 2023 8:18 utc | 427

Posted by: klutch kargo | May 6 2023 16:50 utc | 392
«This organ harvesting stuff can’t be true can it? Doesn’t an organ have to be perfused and transported quickly to be of any use.»
Some people seem to manage it:
https://www.thedailybeast.com/italys-gruesome-migrant-organ-transplant-murders
http://www.ayyaantuu.net/nine-somalis-dumped-in-egyptian-sea-after-kidnapped-and-organs-removed-by-traffickers-in-egypt/

Posted by: Blissex | May 7 2023 8:28 utc | 428

Re: Organ Harvesting
New technology has radically changed the landscape.
https://www.google.com/search?q=normothermic+perfusion+machine

Posted by: too scents | May 7 2023 9:16 utc | 429

@ rk, §302:
So, like Brandon, you think the Ukraine are “winning!”?
Posted by: John Marks | May 6 2023 20:49 utc | 421
The “winning” is for the public, there’s nothing to be won by Ukr. They’ve only enabled free terrorism for nato, no consequences, in a kamikaze move. So far the plan worked for natoids, they kill soldiers, lots of civilians, plant bombs in cars, explode pipes, bridges, shoot drones at Kremlin and so on. And no war takes place in a large part of Ukr, there’s no danger, nothing.
“We have killed Russians and will continue to kill Russians anywhere in this world until Ukraine wins out completely – Budanov”

Posted by: rk | May 7 2023 12:15 utc | 430

Drinky Crow@413…..bit early to call, Assange never got any of his content out in front of US citizens outside the MSN hack jobs on him…… Lira on the other hand, has his vids seen and shared by US citizens in the US…..so, we shall see.
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | May 7 2023 12:59 utc | 431

I suspect that you are confusing the outcome with the intention, because that was indeed the outcome, but it happened *after* the collapse, and it happened because it is the standard operating procedure of the anglo-american elites towards the vassals: buy the loyalty of the local upper-middle and upper classes by protecting them from “socialism” in exchange of a share of the rent extraction this enables from the lower classes of the vassals.
The collapse of the USSR had a complex set of reasons, but the trigger was the failed coup of the old-timers, and the following wish of the whole russian elites to get rid of a structure that gave too much power to the periphery. What they did not realize is that periphery were buffer states that they needed, just like today the PRC needs the RF and Kazakhstan as buffer states.
Posted by: Blissex | May 7 2023 8:18 utc | 432

No, it happened long before 1991, and also long before 1989.
It’s been more than 30 years since then, many people who witnessed things first-hand have spoken, although unfortunately there is barely anyone who was in such a position who is still alive. Of course, none of that has been reported in the West, you need to read and watch primary sources to learn about these things, so I see where the confusion arises from.
The question is how far back it goes. There are claims it goes as far back as the 1960s, more credibly in the early 1970s, then of course a lot of it went down in the mid-1980s. Of course, it wasn’t a single event, it was a process, so likely everyone who gives such dates is correct — they just witnessed different events that were part of the overall process.
Note that we are not talking here about the collapse of the USSR as a political entity, but about the capitalist counter-revolution. The political collapse ended up being the inevitable price that had to be paid for the success of the capitalist counter-revolution.

Posted by: shadowbanned | May 7 2023 12:59 utc | 432

“We have killed Russians and will continue to kill Russians anywhere in this world until Ukraine wins out completely – Budanov”
Posted by: rk | May 7 2023 12:15 utc | 435

Once again, how is Budanov still alive?
Also, at this point you have to start wondering if any lower-level officer in the VKS will even take the initiative in his own had and will enter the coordinates that we all know need to be entered into the missile guidance systems…

Posted by: shadowbanned | May 7 2023 13:01 utc | 433

Wonder if b should rehead this thread….The Missing Lira…..
Cheers M

Posted by: sean the leprechaun | May 7 2023 13:08 utc | 434

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-ato/3705902-intel-chief-budanov-russia-no-longer-has-ability-to-launch-serious-offensive-anywhere-in-ukraine.html
This is the key guy in Ukraine, not Zelensky. Without Budanov and his enforcers, Ukraine might collapse. With him, they can drive the war indefinitely and send untrained men to die, perhaps by the millions.

Posted by: Eighthman | May 7 2023 13:41 utc | 435