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May 5, 2023
Ukraine Open Thread 2023-107
Only for news & views directly related to the Ukraine conflict. The current open thread for other issues is here. Please stick to the topic. Contribute facts. Do not attack other commentators.
Comments
Posted by: Exile | May 6 2023 10:17 utc | 288 Posted by: Response2 | May 6 2023 11:17 utc | 301 Posted by: grunzt | May 6 2023 10:57 utc | 301 Posted by: Greg Galloway | May 6 2023 11:18 utc | 302 I tend to believe that both sides – NATO as well as Russia – are waiting for the other to make the fatal mistake of concentrating some massive amount of troops for an assault. Posted by: Greg Galloway | May 6 2023 11:28 utc | 303 Posted by: rk | May 6 2023 11:07 utc | 304 Posted by: West of England Andy | May 6 2023 11:38 utc | 304
I know I’m like a broken record on this, but people in the West still don’t understand why and how exactly the Cold War ended. Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 11:43 utc | 305 New Ukrainian terrosrist hit with carbomb! On Saturday noon local time near Nizhny Novgorod bomb in the car of probably the most significant modern Russian literator, member of Russian Duma and avid supporter of Donbass, Viktor Prilepin, exploded wounding him seriously and killing his driver. Viktor’s daughter stepped from the car just minutes ago. Ashat group supporting Ukraine has taken resposibility for the terroirist hit. Russia officially blames Ukraine and UK & USA ”that have made Ukraine a terrorist state”. Russian police has already arrested a suspect. Some Ukrainan sources claim that Zelensky’s Admistarion of Presidenr has decided to murder in great numbers VIPs in Russia on the eve of the Ukrainian counteroffssive. I take this a sign of desperation in Kiev, Washington and London. Russia will probably react to this calmly in orden not to give to the West any excuse to escalate the conflict by dirct NATO involment by boots on the ground. The guilty ones can be punished later. Everything on the front is proceeding favorably to Russia and catastrophicall to Ukraine. Posted by: Tsepajev | May 6 2023 11:44 utc | 306 Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 11:43 utc | 311 Posted by: pretzelattack | May 6 2023 12:07 utc | 307 The typical bullshit: “russia will lose because of internal traitors”, “Wagner has no ammo and will withdraw”, “BRICS will betray Russia” Posted by: Rabbit | May 6 2023 12:08 utc | 308 So many obvious paid trolls in this thread slinging shit at Lira like caged gibbons. These ones seem more like State Department trolls herded by fake NGOs rather than the SOCOM MISO trolls, but I could be wrong. In either case, this volume of trolling indicates the situation with Lira is serious and has the attention of the Empire of Delusions higher level operators that have resources for large scale trolling. Posted by: William Gruff | May 6 2023 12:11 utc | 309 According to its own information, the Ukrainian Air Force has succeeded in shooting down a Russian Kinschal hypersonic missile. “I congratulate the Ukrainian people on a historic event!” wrote Ukrainian Air Force Chief Mykola Oleshchuk on his Telegram channel. The Kinschal, which Moscow has repeatedly touted as one of the best missiles ever, was intercepted over the Kiev region Thursday night with the help of the U.S. Patriot defense system, he said. Posted by: Qassam | May 6 2023 12:11 utc | 310 It is well understood in Russia though, and this is why there is so much pessimism — because that scum has been in power ever since, it has not been cleansed and purged at all, and everything about the last 14 months smells very strongly of another such betrayal. Posted by: pretzelattack | May 6 2023 12:13 utc | 311 Posted by: Greg Galloway | May 6 2023 11:28 utc | 309 Posted by: pretzelattack | May 6 2023 12:18 utc | 312
Remember how a couple days after the invasion started Putin gathered the oligarchs and told them “Everything that is happening now is desperate measures. They left us no choice, they have created security risks that are unacceptable”. Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 12:23 utc | 313 Lancet 3-M anhiliates a Strella. Pretty sure this is Zapo as well. Athough that lone soldier should have run. Posted by: unimperator | May 6 2023 12:31 utc | 314 It is well understood in Russia though, and this is why there is so much pessimism — because that scum has been in power ever since, it has not been cleansed and purged at all, and everything about the last 14 months smells very strongly of another such betrayal. Posted by: K | May 6 2023 12:31 utc | 315 Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 12:23 utc | 319 Posted by: pretzelattack | May 6 2023 12:32 utc | 316 @ Posted by: pretzelattack | May 6 2023 12:18 utc | 318 Posted by: BroncoBilly | May 6 2023 12:34 utc | 317 https://www-thepioneer-de.translate.goog/originals/thepioneer-briefing-business-class-edition/articles/amerika-weltordnung-a-la-carte?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=de&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_hist=true Posted by: toxique.negresse | May 6 2023 12:37 utc | 318 Do Trolls get benefits? Vacation time and health insurance? Posted by: Ramsey Glissadevil | May 6 2023 12:41 utc | 319 Posted by: BroncoBilly | May 6 2023 12:34 utc | 323 ‘The latest US weapons package indicates this, but very few understand the relevance of what each weapon represents.” Posted by: Response2 | May 6 2023 12:43 utc | 320 light years ahead of the West if the correct decisions had been taken, especially in the 1960s. You see what China looks like now. Posted by: Paul Greenwood | May 6 2023 12:49 utc | 321
Here:
See above. There is a strong patriotic faction, but it has not won the internal war. Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 12:58 utc | 322 @ Posted by: Response2 | May 6 2023 12:43 utc | 326 Posted by: BroncoBilly | May 6 2023 13:01 utc | 323 BroncoBilly | May 6 2023 12:34 utc | 323 Posted by: ZimZum | May 6 2023 13:01 utc | 324 There are exceptinal Russians, with fine sensitivies and humanity, but alas this type NEVER ends up in power in Russia. Posted by: Fred777 | May 6 2023 13:20 utc | 325 Ramsey Glissadevil @325:
Trollmasters for SOCOM get a six figure salary and full benefits. It is quite the cushy job. Posted by: William Gruff | May 6 2023 13:21 utc | 326
Not at all. We are not talking about business — the whole point of the USSR was to move away from the “business” mentality — and definitely not about exports. Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 13:23 utc | 327 Posted by: West of England Andy | May 6 2023 11:38 utc | 310 Posted by: Longhorn | May 6 2023 13:24 utc | 328 Weeb Union 1 hour ago Posted by: Don Firineach | May 6 2023 13:31 utc | 329 ZimZum @330 Posted by: John2007 | May 6 2023 13:31 utc | 330 @William Gruff #332 Posted by: BillB | May 6 2023 13:43 utc | 331
Ukraine isn’t even part of the “old empire”. Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 13:47 utc | 332 There is no way Ukraine shot down a Kinzhal with a Patriot AD system. Posted by: Doctor Eleven | May 6 2023 13:51 utc | 333 John2007@336 Posted by: bevin | May 6 2023 13:56 utc | 334 everyone who talks about business must as quickly as possible have their head and body separated from each other and buried in shallow unmarked graves, and everyone who ever talks about “business” again needs to be immediately lined up and shot. Posted by: GT Stroller | May 6 2023 14:01 utc | 335 Shooting down a Kinzhal with a Patriot AD is so disastrous lame propaganda. Its not even funny anymore. Posted by: Rabbit | May 6 2023 14:06 utc | 336 Fantastic:
Expanded to what? Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 14:09 utc | 337 I wonder if the Russians are going to burn Ugledar next… Posted by: Wokechoke | May 6 2023 14:11 utc | 338 The Dolphin | May 6 2023 10:51 utc | 300 Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 6 2023 14:14 utc | 339 The thing with the supposed Kinzhal shotdown was that they claimed it once, then their spokesman Jury Ignat denied it, then the next day again they claimed it was true after all. The final straw was when they showed a supposed picture of the missile where you could see through a hole inside – nothing inside and the wall was at least inch thick concrete. Posted by: unimperator | May 6 2023 14:19 utc | 340 reply to 339 Posted by: Eighthman | May 6 2023 14:23 utc | 341 If you follow primary Russian sources you can see a shifting mood. Not long ago the dooming was all from the “turbopatriots” but as of late it has begun to infect much more mainstream and staid/rational (as opposed to emotional) commentators. To what degree the dooming is correct and appropriate is hard to determine, but it’s real and growing. Posted by: Lex | May 6 2023 14:28 utc | 342 Re:Shadowbanned: Posted by: Trubind1 | May 6 2023 14:36 utc | 343
Very rare discussion of the real internal configuration of the interests within Russia. I only disagree on one aspect with the author. And that is that in order to survive as an independent geopolitical civilizational entity, it was essential for Russia to integrate the Western Europe into its own space. The last 100 years of European wars were in fact the fight over Western Europe between the two major White European superpowers: the Anglo-Saxons and the Russians. Andrew Korybko has an interesting article about the Lira case, he thinks the US government is complicit. Posted by: Morongobill | May 6 2023 14:43 utc | 345 I agree with shadowbanned at 311. The USSR didn’t “collapse” of internal rot, it was sold out by greedy bureaucrats who wanted to steal the resources for themselves, instead of using them for the benefit of the people. Posted by: wagelaborer | May 6 2023 14:44 utc | 346
Where did I say Russia is unique in that? Russia was unique in that it was once anti-capitalist, so it hurts much more.
Not true. The military is all that matters. Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 14:48 utc | 347 I also heard that Putin was stationed in St. Petersburg in 1991, and helped put down the uprising there against Yeltsin’s coup. Posted by: wagelaborer | May 6 2023 14:53 utc | 348 I remain stupified by the complete fucking idiocy of Western strategists. Posted by: rk | May 6 2023 14:55 utc | 349 The latest from WeebUnion YouTube mapper: Posted by: Chris | May 6 2023 14:58 utc | 350
Indeed. Remember the episode with the Caltech janitor that turned out to have originally been a physicist from Leningrad who emigrated to the US? There may have been such cases in the early 1990s, but certainly not in the 2010s. But the stereotypes persist to this day. Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 15:00 utc | 351 Trisha asks us to speak out to protect the vulnerable. OK, I am doing so. Posted by: wagelaborer | May 6 2023 15:03 utc | 352 But here is the problem — the difference between an oligarchy and a strong centralized state is that the latter can be decapitated fairly easily while the former is too dispersed. … Karl, Paco. A lot of information warfare going on at the moment. Best to wait and watch. Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 6 2023 15:06 utc | 354 Posted by: BroncoBilly | May 6 2023 13:01 utc | 329 Posted by: Response2 | May 6 2023 15:06 utc | 355
There is truth to that — the alternative is to do it with East Asia, but the cultural and civilizational differences run very deep. Russian, German, English, French? All Indo-European languages, the civilization is Christian (despite the schism), racially it’s the same white people, there is a lot in common. The Chinese are aliens in comparison. Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 15:09 utc | 356 But such a project could only have worked if Western Europe was to become communist, and that was not a viable prospect after D-Day. Posted by: Don Firineach | May 6 2023 13:31 utc | 335 Posted by: Chris | May 6 2023 15:19 utc | 358 Posted by: Lex | May 6 2023 14:28 utc | 349 Posted by: Akash | May 6 2023 15:20 utc | 360 It will be interesting to see in this so called “upcoming offensive” if the Russian Army will play this tactically or strategically like they did in Kherson. Posted by: JamesBond | May 6 2023 15:21 utc | 361 Shaddowbanned – Here, we don’t need to think about the difficulties of attacking the oligarchs. In the US, the most prominent crisis is not the crisis of capitalism but the crisis of the working class, a crisis of political consciousness. We have created a situation that we have not yet consciously acknowledged. We have created conditions whereby the capitalist classes are unable to rule in the old way. It is a political crisis because there is no class conscious response sufficient for a very dangerous situation. It’s not that we lack power but that we refuse to understand – a failure of working class consciousness to keep pace with a changing world. I would guess that it’s similar there in Russia, too, although you do have the positive legacy of Lenin and Stalin. Lenin was brilliant. But his brilliance must have posed problems, too – perhaps people are better-off if they think for themselves, rather than being dependent upon others doing their thinking for them. But, this is even more imperative with corporate states, like the US, where the politicians are dumb or deceitful. Lenin was undoubtedly the most advanced political analyst history has ever witnessed – Stalin, Molotov, Kaganovich, Zhdanov, Voroshilov, and Manuilsky were good, too, but what good was it for socialism after Stalin died, when the bulk of the population could not see through, nor resist, revisionism? Posted by: zeke2u | May 6 2023 15:22 utc | 362 Here we go again:
They were supposed to have prevented this transfer of men and equipment, but of course nobody really tried seriously… Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 15:23 utc | 363 🇺🇦Ukraine is unable to launch a full-scale offensive Posted by: unimperator | May 6 2023 15:24 utc | 364 https://twitter.com/Angelo4justice3/status/1654522175678996481 Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 6 2023 15:28 utc | 365 Some Wessi: Posted by: malenkov | May 6 2023 15:34 utc | 366 JamesBond | May 6 2023 15:21 utc | 369 Posted by: rk | May 6 2023 15:34 utc | 367 Posted by: rk | May 6 2023 15:34 utc | 376 Posted by: unimperator | May 6 2023 15:42 utc | 368
They have no room for retreat as it is, even if there was no NPP. Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 15:42 utc | 369 Like shadowbanned mention, if the line in Zaporizhia is breached, protecting NPP is the last concern which is why that line is so crucial. It doesn’t matter if the ukrainians managed to take 10-15km in that direction as long as the gains are very limited (like the Germans did with Kursk). Of course, they could try an amphibious assault from Dnipr or something braze like Crimea (but that would be really stupid) but even if they can get some battalions of men in the other side of the river, without breaching the Zap line, they won’t go too far. Posted by: JamesBond | May 6 2023 15:53 utc | 370 The only historical parallel you need to consider is that of the Wehrmacht outside Moscow in December of 1941: their initial attack failed, they have no means of resupply or reinforcement and they are left in an exposed position. They are about to be rolled back. Posted by: Noam A. Larkey | May 6 2023 15:54 utc | 371 All: Posted by: morongobill | May 6 2023 15:54 utc | 372 Posted by: shadowbanned | May 6 2023 15:42 utc | 380 Posted by: unimperator | May 6 2023 15:57 utc | 373 @Peter AU1 | May 6 2023 15:28 utc | 373
Yes, those who are using this situation to badmouth Gonzalo Lira are outing themselves as scum indeed. Cowards that only attack someone who cannot defend themselves. Posted by: Norwegian | May 6 2023 15:59 utc | 374 Posted by: unimperator | May 6 2023 14:19 utc | 347 Posted by: anon2020 | May 6 2023 16:00 utc | 375
The problem with having a frank discussion with the pro-Russia chorus is that they know only one line. Russia is anti-West. Putin, Putin, Putin! Just the reverse of the woke crowd.
Sure, there are centers of resistance against Russia taking over the whole of Europe. Hence the despair especially of the Eastern European neighbors. They know what they know. You can see more on this here Algora Blog Remember the episode with the Caltech janitor that turned out to have originally been a physicist from Leningrad who emigrated to the US? Posted by: rk | May 6 2023 16:21 utc | 377 @Trisha | May 6 2023 16:16 utc | 388
Great, then go and mind your own business, we are not interested in what you do at night. Posted by: Norwegian | May 6 2023 16:23 utc | 378 The delusion-embracing “younger generation” is Gen Z… aptly named for the end of Western civilization, wouldn’t you say? Posted by: William Gruff | May 6 2023 16:23 utc | 379 @William Gruff | May 6 2023 16:23 utc | 391 Posted by: Norwegian | May 6 2023 16:25 utc | 380 Here is another view on “sanctions”: Selling Off the West’s Patrimony for One Ruble – But Why? Best In Hell @ 206 Posted by: Klutch Kargo | May 6 2023 16:33 utc | 382 The RU scientist turned janitor in US was one very soft moment. But in other episodes they just inserted “jokes” with no connection to the script or anything. For example, Russians “are only known for Tetris and mail-order brides”, Russians are “the people who gave us Chernobyl”, their rockets are scary bad, Russians shit too much in space compared to Americans and other such “jokes” but I don’t remember now. Posted by: Exile | May 6 2023 16:38 utc | 383 No way has Gonzalo been running his high profile operation in the middle of a war zone without protection. SBU was not simply distracted or too busy or looking the other way because. For the Nazis this has been an open wound. He does walk around town and get his coffee and cigarettes and bread wearing that face. Everyone in town has to know who he is. Posted by: oldhippie | May 6 2023 16:39 utc | 384 Do Trolls get benefits? Vacation time and health insurance? Posted by: Ed | May 6 2023 16:40 utc | 385 Gonzo @ 283 Posted by: Klutch Kargo | May 6 2023 16:42 utc | 386 Norwegian @392 Posted by: William Gruff | May 6 2023 16:43 utc | 387 Organ harvesting @ 288 Posted by: klutch kargo | May 6 2023 16:50 utc | 388 @ William Gruff | May 6 2023 16:43 utc | 399 Posted by: Norwegian | May 6 2023 16:51 utc | 389 This is not a civil society issue playing out in Georgetown or Brooklyn. This is war zone. Quite amazing it has gone so long. I am not cheering for the goons. Pretending the goons are not there and there in force is silly. Posted by: Ed | May 6 2023 17:07 utc | 390 Posted by: oldhippie | May 6 2023 16:39 utc | 393 Posted by: Revelo | May 6 2023 17:07 utc | 391 If I were the host I’d consider killing the comments for a while. It’s a shame but without moderation, authentication of users, and a respectful commentary, it’s not worth sifting thru the garbage to find a nugget of gold. Posted by: Chris | May 6 2023 17:08 utc | 392 Posted by: William Gruff | May 6 2023 16:43 utc | 397 Posted by: Ed | May 6 2023 17:27 utc | 393 Posted by: unimperator | May 6 2023 15:57 utc | 384 Posted by: anon2020 | May 6 2023 17:30 utc | 394 klutch kargo | May 6 2023 16:50 utc | 395 Posted by: rk | May 6 2023 17:30 utc | 395 Revelo @ 399 Posted by: oldhippie | May 6 2023 17:39 utc | 396 @ Posted by: Response2 | May 6 2023 15:06 utc | 359 Posted by: BroncoBilly | May 6 2023 17:41 utc | 397 Lira is a professional sexual harasser and probably finds the situation in Ukraine, with a bunch of men being shipped to the front and their wives left behind, very amenable. Posted by: RB | May 6 2023 17:47 utc | 398 Because it is debt that determines national sovereignty or not Posted by: Jmaas | May 6 2023 17:50 utc | 399 Mass production of cheap, plentiful, guided rocket artillery with rapid fire control should have been a priority… Posted by: Jmaas | May 6 2023 17:57 utc | 400 |
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