Ukraine – Air Defense Lessons (Updated)

May 16, 2023

Updated below

This is factual:

Patriot Missiles Won’t Save Ukraine – National Interest – May 9, 2023

Patriot systems are limited to pinpoint defense of major assets and are designed to operate in tandem with air defenses engaging targets at higher and lower altitudes. Without these additions, Patriot will have too many threats to engage and the result will either be porous coverage that doesn’t protect its defended assets, or coverage that quickly subsides when Patriot runs out of interceptors.

Moreover, Patriot systems are themselves vulnerable. Operating a Patriot radar system gives away its location, making it an open target for Russian attacks. This means that Patriot is not a one-stop-shop for defending Ukraine’s military assets or its people.

Those facts were proven last night.

War Monitor @WarMonitors – 1:23 UTC · May 16, 2023

⚡️I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but after careful review of this video, it appears that the air defence battery (most likely patriot) tried to save itself, but failed. It most probably got toasted.
Embedded video

bigger

Those were expensive two minutes for the 'West':

Fennec_Radar @RadarFennec – 1:45 UTC · May 16, 2023

I counted 30 Patriot PAC-3 MSE launches here.
The FY2024 costs of these per missile is about $$5,275,000
That was $158,250,000 fired in about two minutes. And as we see, the battery or something else likely got blown up. So it failed in its mission.
Embedded video

This though is likely not true. Kinzhals are simply too fast to be hit by any of Ukraine's air defenses:

Defense of Ukraine @DefenceU – 6:40 UTC · May 16, 2023

Last night, russian terrorists attacked Ukraine with:
– 6 Kinzhal aeroballistic missiles
– 9 Kalibr missiles
– 3 ground-launched missiles
– drones

ALL TARGETS SHOT DOWN.
Glory to the Ukrainian Air Forces!
We are grateful to our partner states for strengthening our air defense capabilities.

The casualty numbers in today's clobber report by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation may be a bit exaggerated but the general operational facts are usually true:

The Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation launched a combined attack with long-range precision-guided air- and sea-based weapons against the AFU units, as well as depots of ammunition, weapons and military equipment supplied by Western countries.

The goal of the attack has been reached. All the assigned targets have been neutralised.

U.S.-manufactured Patriot surface-to-air missile system has been struck by Kinnzhal hypersonic glide vehicle in Kiev.
…
Fighter Aviation of Russian Aerospace Forces have shot down Su-24 and Su-25 aircraft of Ukrainian Air Force near Varvarovka and Krasnoarmeysk (Donetsk People's Republic).

Air defence forces intercepted seven Storm Shadow long-range cruise missiles, three HARM anti-radar missiles and seven HIMARS multiple-launch rocket system projectiles.

Air defence facilities have shot down 22 unmanned aerial vehicles close to Ivanovka and Yevgenovka (Donetsk People's Republic), Topolyovka (Lugansk People's Republic), Inzhenernoye, Blagoveshchenka (Zaporpzhye region), and Krynki (Kherson region).

Ukraine does not have an integrated air defense that can attack all air targets at all levels. Russia though has such an integrated system of systems. It makes for a huge difference.

Updated – 16:30 UTC:

U.S. confirms hit on Patriot system:

Alex Marquardt @MarquardtA – 16:23 UTC · May 16, 2023

A Patriot system was likely damaged but not destroyed by a Russian missile barrage Monday night, a US official tells @NatashaBertrand. US is still assessing the damage which to determine whether the system needs to be pulled back entirely or be repaired by the Ukrainians.

Posted by b on May 16, 2023 at 13:47 UTC | Permalink

Comments

“Mr Zaluzhny, please pick up the courtesy phone, you have 26,328 calls waiting. Mr Biden is on Line 1”.

Posted by: West of England Andy | May 16 2023 19:32 utc | 201

From Intel Slava Z telegram channel…
https://t.me/intelslava/47779
According to one of the NATO officers who provided headquarters support for counterattacks on the flanks of the Bakhmut group on May 12, Ukraine suffered one of the biggest losses since 2014 – 1,725 people were killed.
The strikes of the 2nd Azov brigade on the southern flank and two mechanized brigades and one motorized rifle battalion on the northern flank were stopped, and the losses amounted to one regiment.
The rapid withdrawal of Russian troops to the plain and the shelling of Russian tanks, artillery and Russian aircraft on the line of defense prepared at high altitudes led to heavy losses.
A large number of foreign mercenaries and far-right groups are stuck in Bakhmut. The Armed Forces of Ukraine have been trying for several days to ease the pressure on the group so that it can be withdrawn, but Russia nullifies these attempts with a massive bombardment.
Another assessment of Ukie losses during their attacks on the flanks gives numbers greater than 2500 for the 3 days involved.
It appears that the Russians pulled back to their second line of defense, then plastered the Ukie attackers in a prepared killing field, until they were stopped.
INDY

Posted by: Dr. George W Oprisko | May 16 2023 19:32 utc | 202

Alex Christoforou of the Duran giving his take of the last few days
https://rumble.com/v2o43a8-russia-destroys-collective-west-weapons-as-zelensky-tours-europe.html

Posted by: SattaMassaGana | May 16 2023 19:38 utc | 203

“The ‘nest’ has been completely cleared, the last house remains under the control of the enemy. In order to completely take Bakhmut, there was a quarter below Yubileynaya Street and a small piece of the private sector. And Bakhmut will be completely taken under control by the Wagner PMC units,” Prigozhin’s press service in Telegram quotes an audio comment.

Posted by: Russo | May 16 2023 19:38 utc | 204

According to one of the NATO officers who provided headquarters support for counterattacks on the flanks of the Bakhmut group on May 12, Ukraine suffered one of the biggest losses since 2014 – 1,725 people were killed.
The strikes of the 2nd Azov brigade on the southern flank and two mechanized brigades and one motorized rifle battalion on the northern flank were stopped, and the losses amounted to one regiment.

Hahahahaha! I wonder, how many of these suckers are dead now: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67DBWr2mPl0
Let the denazification continue!
Z

Posted by: Apollyon | May 16 2023 19:41 utc | 205

Some wild speculation tying together some rumors going recently:
– Ukraine made some spectacular wins around Bakmuth
– some Russian party may or may not have made a deal with the Ukrainian side
– Selensky made a PR-Tour spreading lots of optimism based on hot air
– Wagner/Russia conquers the last blocks of Bakmuth encountering what looks like practically no resistance. Despite allegedly 6000-8000 Ukrainian soldiers being trapped with no way out: Russia still has fire control of all ways out, making any escape.
– there no reports of mass casualties, no videos of Ukrainian soldiers being captured in large numbers
Could it be possible that some deal was made giving Ukraine free retreat and some face-saving wins in return for giving up Bakmuth?

Posted by: Marvin | May 16 2023 19:42 utc | 206

If the German establishment were scared shitless, there would be nothing left of it.

Posted by: malenkov | May 16 2023 19:43 utc | 207

Russian weapons suppress both the old versions of the American Patriot air defense system and the latest modified PAC-3 CRI.
Today’s Kinzhal attack hit such a complex designed to destroy high-speed and maneuvering targets.
The American SAM was hit just as the battery ceased fire, having used up all the PAC-3 CRI anti-missile missiles for decoys.
Russian weapons saturate and suppress the target channel of the most modern American air defense systems.
The video also shows two PAC-3 CRI anti-missile missiles going off course and falling on the city.
AND important almost at the end first the one impact…seconds later a second impact on the far left of the picture.
So it must have caught a second battery?
When the defense missiles start, you can also see the missiles starting from two batteries….
Explosions at both locations.
.
https://t.me/ZandVchannel/64793

Posted by: mo3.1 | May 16 2023 19:45 utc | 208

It is naïve to think that western media, aka the Mighty Wurlitzer of propaganda, “can’t ignore” a big story.
Of course they can. Think of the OPCW inspectors who testified that their inspection was overruled by the brass. Think Nordstream pipelines destruction. Think of the investigation into the Biden crime family money laundering. If mainstream media doesn’t cover it, it didn’t happen, according to the vast majority of media slurpers.
And look at the NAFO trolls waxing indignant about the sanctity of borders and national sovereignty. Do they even know that the USA is occupying 30% of Syria? Do they know that the US is stealing oil and wheat from Syria?
That information is not every mentioned by the Mighty Wurlitzer, even though it should be considered very big news, indeed.
The hypocrisy on parade shown by every White House, Pentagon, or State Dept. spokesperson, or the talking heads featured on “news” shows, should be embarrassing to every American, or EURO citizen, and would be if the “news” wasn’t so good at hiding the actual facts.

Posted by: wagelaborer | May 16 2023 19:45 utc | 209

@ RicK | May 16 2023 19:30 utc | 201
Explain to me the logic of sending a dummy missile. It would require every component of the real thing, minus explosives. Which, it would seem to me, to be the cheapest component of said missile?
A decoy missile is used to distract and confuse the enemy’s radars and optical recognition. It has a simpler electronics with different guidance settings of deliberately offering itself to the radar and a counter fire.
It is usually equipped with passive reflectors to magnify, duplicate or project shift of its position, therefore cheating the radar picture.
Likewise, it is not aimed at the target, but just in a general direction at the certain hight and attracts precious attention of the air defence. In general it is lot cheaper since it has not a warhead, complicated fuse, avoidance computer, and it is made in a cheaper lower quality housing.
D

To achieve victory, we must as far as possible make the enemy blind and deaf by sealing his eyes and ears, and drive his commanders to distraction by creating confusion in their minds.
– Mao Tse-Tung

Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 19:47 utc | 210

re Biswapriya Purkayast | May 16 2023 19:30 utc | 203:
Looks like the name hijacking continues apace. But if I’m mistaken in that assumption, well, you always did remind me of K. S. Sorabji.

Posted by: malenkov | May 16 2023 19:48 utc | 211

Marvin,it appears that you are the one speculating and spreading rumors.
Federal News Agency
The fighters of PMC “Wagner” managed to advance up to 220 meters in Bakhmut on May 15. This was announced by the founder of the military company Yevgeny Prigozhin.
According to the businessman, the “musicians” managed to occupy an area of 105,000 square meters. In total, 1.59 square kilometers remain under the control of the soldiers of the Armed Forces of Ukraine.
“Today, units of PMC Wagner advanced up to 220 meters. Covered an area of 105,000 square meters. Under the control of the enemy remains 1.59 square kilometers. PMC “Wagner” continues the attack on Bakhmut. There are 36 houses under our control, and 12 high-rise buildings under the control of the enemy,” the founder of the “orchestra” emphasized, the audio message of which was published by his press service.

Posted by: Russo | May 16 2023 19:48 utc | 212

@ ostro | May 16 2023 19:17 utc | 189 with the reporting that 2 Kinzhals were fired by Russia and in another comment say both were used to take out 2 Patriot systems.
Thanks for the info if correct.
Why are we only hearing about one of them being damaged?
What happened to the other?

Posted by: psychohistorian | May 16 2023 19:49 utc | 213

>Zaluzhny and Syrski
Apparently under house arrest pending an investigation into a possible coup plot.

Posted by: Pudding | May 16 2023 19:52 utc | 214

Second SitRep collection for today
https://askeptic.substack.com/p/battlefield-update-2023-05-16-2

Posted by: Will | May 16 2023 19:53 utc | 215

b – “Kinzhals are simply too fast to be hit by any of Ukraine’s air defenses”
Kinzhal midcourse at 100km altitude going mach 10+? Sure. But it will become much slower as it descends on its unpowered terminal approach dropping well into sub-hypersonic speeds before impact. Now that will only happen the last ten seconds of its flight in a steep or nearly vertical dive (depending), so that makes it *difficult* to target and intercept. But the PAC-3 MSE was designed specifically to counter the threat of incoming quasi-ballistic, very fast, semi-maneuverable missiles. Will it? Sure, under the right conditions. Did it? No idea. NASAMs? Not a chance.
“Ukraine does not have an integrated air defense that can attack all air targets at all levels. Russia though has such an integrated system of systems.”
Ukraine ‘kind of’ has coverage if you assume they are protecting their Patriot battery (or Kiev) with NASAMs medium-range, mid- to low-altitude. They’re NATO, so they talk all talk to the Patriot, which also gets a feed from AWACS and satellites. One hopes they also have some point-defense systems for flying lawnmower attacks which *may* talk to the Patriot brain or not. Patriot and NASAM radars won’t help much for point defense, but any integration helps. Still, it’s no S-400. But US knows this and so does Russia.
As for the Patriot getting whacked, I imagine it did. Russia performed probing attacks a week or so ago as soon as they knew the Patriot was fired up. Worth a Kinzhal or two just to see all the signals intel for detection and gauge the battery response. Speculation: Russia determined they only had a couple of launchers hot and chose a saturation attack. Could have been with real missiles or could have been decoys. Kinzhals (like Iskander-Ms) release radar decoys on terminal approach – as well as IR flares and misc. EW goodness.
Neither the Kinzhal nor the Patriot are invincible.

Posted by: PavewayIV | May 16 2023 19:53 utc | 216

Bakhmut looks to be on its last legs. …
Posted by: Rhinoskerous | May 16 2023 18:09 utc | 142
Prigozhin’s dragging that thing out for as long as possible. Just when it looks like UA will give up, RF’s flanks soften, Wagner gives up a building or two, complains of shortages, or UA gains a little more road access, and the grinder keep on churning.
Sneaky bugger’s been leading us on, now I’m not sure whether I’d vote for him as POTUS!

Posted by: anon2020 | May 16 2023 19:57 utc | 217

@ real or fake Biswapriya Purkayast | May 16 2023 19:55 utc | 220
ROFL! Well, that’s the last time I‘ll ever compare you to a genius. :-)))))

Posted by: malenkov | May 16 2023 20:01 utc | 218

PavewayIV | May 16 2023 19:53 utc | 219
According to what I have read, the reach mach 12 in the terminal dive. I assume they have some sort of booster for that terminal stage. They are described as semi ballistic so my thought is a rocket engine gets them up to cruise speed and turns off then cuts in again when it dives onto the target.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 16 2023 20:03 utc | 219

“Another turbulent evening in Ukraine:
• Konstantinovka – explosions (rear behind Bakhmut)
• Slavyansk – explosions (rear behind Bakhmut)
• Kharkiv region – explosions (there were reports of the accumulation of the enemy and equipment)
• Zaporozhye region – “Gerani” (the enemy is ready to attack, concentrated forces)
• Kherson region, Kherson Berislav – explosions (constant accumulation of the enemy and sending small landing groups to our shore).
Air raid in the eastern regions of Ukraine. There was no rebound.”
TG
Grind never stops.

Posted by: unimperator | May 16 2023 20:04 utc | 220

CNN Confirms Damage to Patriot Air Defenses
According to the official, US authorities are still investigating what damage the Patriot air defense system received. The further fate of the installation will depend on the degree of damage: either it will have to be completely curtailed, or it will be enough to repair it together with the Ukrainian forces.
On May 16, the Russian Ministry of Defense reported that the US-made Patriot air defense system was hit by Kinzhal missiles. The Ukrainian military declined to comment on the statement about the defeat of the Patriot air defense system. “We cannot comment on this. We will refrain from commenting on Russian sources,” said Serhiy Ignat, a spokesman for the Ukrainian Air Force.
Ukrainian officials, by contrast, announced the interception of six Russian hypersonic missiles, including a Kinzhal missile. The source of the state agencies TASS, RIA Novosti and Interfax in the Ministry of Defense said that the information about the Kinzhal missile shot down by the Ukrainian army was a “stuffing” and “an attempt to wishful thinking.”
Now there are two Patriot systems in Ukraine: one was received from the United States, the second from Germany and the Netherlands. Patriot air defense duty began in Ukraine on April 21.
https://edition.cnn.com/2023/05/16/politics/patriot-missile-damage-ukraine/index.html

Posted by: Russo | May 16 2023 20:04 utc | 221

209.
..spectacular wins? Give your head a shake. The Ukrainians advanced and got annihilated. There are no gains, only bloody reversals. You can’t win a war with lies.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | May 16 2023 20:05 utc | 222

@young 136
Its a surreal situation in that the daily newsfeed on the Ukrainian conflict feels like the same that plays out in the background in the early scenes of ‘Threads’
If it comes to that point, I’ll be sat on the roof with a hefty G&T, volume cranked up to 11 playing Frankie’s Two Tribes, and await a glorious sunrise from somewhere near Fylingdales in North Yorkshire

Posted by: Rattus | May 16 2023 20:10 utc | 223

If you live between San Francisco and Warsaw: the Russians can bomb you just as easily as they can bomb Kiev; the defenses are the same.

Posted by: Passerby | May 16 2023 20:11 utc | 224

pretzelattack | May 16 2023 19:27 utc | 197
War on China will cover the pullout from Ukraine.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 16 2023 20:12 utc | 225

@ PavewayIV | May 16 2023 19:53 utc | 219
excellent comment.. thanks for commenting here..

Posted by: james | May 16 2023 20:13 utc | 226

219.
Go sell that shit elsewhere.
No weapons system is infalliable, but even pretending to compare grandaps 1970s vintage – oh, but with upgrades! – Patriot to S400 or even S300 is ridiculous. The Patriot is a fucking clunker that fails to shoot down scuds.
Conclusion : From the persepective of Western AD, until proven otherwise, there is no available defense against Kinzhal strikes.
Western stenographers and weapons merchants take note. The world sure as fuck is.
Those strategists surely made the right call putting all the eggs in the F35 basket.

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | May 16 2023 20:14 utc | 227

Posted by: karlof1 | May 16 2023 18:36 utc | 158
Thanks for that, most unexpected.

Posted by: anon2020 | May 16 2023 20:14 utc | 228

Sorry that came off needlessly offensive. I’ve read too much bullshit today.
It’s a reasonable enough take, I just think you’re overegging the broth as it were on any possibility of the Patriot shooting down a Kinzhal, even with software upgrades, even assuming perfect conditions (for the Patriot)

Posted by: Doctor Eleven | May 16 2023 20:17 utc | 229

Bad news I’m thinking, today was
Advanced FreqOut : frequency manipulation, jamming, diversion of radar, spoofing with targeting feedback. Logical new type of war countermeasures? So advanced, will know decades from now.
This mean Patriot systems frequency IS confirmed =
hackable, vulnerable, and exploitable by Russia forces.
JUST KEEPS GETTING WORSE

Posted by: Miguel | May 16 2023 20:24 utc | 230

Peter AU1 | May 16 2023 20:03 utc | 224 – It’s a 50-second engine. Basically, same as the Iskander-M. The Iskander-M reaches 70km and mach 5-6 as the engine burns out. Kinzhal only uses half the engine to get to 70km/mach 5 (because air-launch). The rest of it’s ~25 second burn lofts it to 100km – almost no atmosphere – while accelerating to some ungodly mach 10+ speed. Because it’s so high, it can coast at that speed in a slight descent until it almost reaches the target. At that point, even if it dove straight down, it would decelerate more and more the lower it goes because of increasing atmospheric drag. That friction (at those speeds) far exceeds the relatively tiny acceleration from gravity.
All ballistic missiles are like this. Scuds are hypersonic at the peak of their ballistic arc too and fall unpowered after that. Kinzhal’s lethality comes from being able to approach the target area at hypersonic speed/high altitude giving AD little time to compute a firing solution and respond. The Patriot has to figure out if the Kinzhal is really just overflying the battery at 100km (impossible to ‘chase’, no fire solution) or if the thing is going to nose down and dive into their command trailer. PAC-3 isn’t designed to intercept mid-course – target is too high/too fast. It has to wait until the Kinzhal or whatever decides to come down into the atmosphere to play. There is no ‘easy’ ballistic arc solution like those with older tactical missiles.

Posted by: PavewayIV | May 16 2023 20:28 utc | 231

Hmmmm
Not impressed with any of this thread.
Looks like a teenage ‘call of duty’ internet chat room.
And a crap one at that.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 16 2023 20:30 utc | 232

ThusspakeZarathustra | May 16 2023 16:19 utc | 74
“Ghost of Patriot Saved the Day”™️………Zaluzhnyi, commander-in-chief of Ukraine’s Armed Forces, and the Air Force said on May 16.”
Guess Z2 is alive and lying. But I repeat myself.

Posted by: Melaleuca | May 16 2023 20:33 utc | 233

Meanwhile Ukies trying to escape Bakhmut now, Wagner et al still have a chance to catch ’em all
https://asiatimes.com/2023/05/ukrainians-are-organizing-retreat-from-bakhmut/?s=09

Posted by: Handsome Man | May 16 2023 20:33 utc | 234

bit off thread but —- Germany and Greens – DW Berlin Briefing
HEIZUNGSHAMMER BACKLASH
Chancellor Olaf Scholz’s center-left Social Democrats (SPD) received a boost from the small city-state of Bremen, where they won a clear election victory on Sunday.
For their coalition partner, the Greens, it was a different story: They took an unprecedented beating in one of their traditional strongholds, losing one-third of their support as compared with 2019.
In pre-election polls 80% of voters had expressed dissatisfaction with the policies of the federal Economy and Climate Minister Robert Habeck (Greens), saying his plans to phase out fossil fuel heating from 2024 would put too much of a burden on private households. Germany’s tabloid media and the conservative opposition are denouncing the government’s plans as Habecks Heizungshammer (Habeck’s heating hammer).
There is pressure to postpone measures, as lavish state support for homeowners is unlikely. Finance Minister Christian Lindner (neoliberal FDP) says recent tax relief measures to help citizens cope with inflation have emptied state coffers and the government must tighten its belt and resist new expenditures.
Green Party co-leader Ricarda Lang expressed her disappointment at the election results in Bremen but vowed to hold on to core projects on the path to climate neutrality, even if they are unpopular. “If we don’t change anything now, we endanger everything down the road,” Lang said.
But in Bremen — just like previously in Berlin — voters also turned against local Green Party policies to limit car traffic. Green Party top candidate and Senator for the Environment Maike Schaefer resigned on Monday, accepting personal responsibility for the poor showing.
She had become hugely unpopular through policies to reduce parking spaces and by introducing speed limits in the city center. Schaefer then managed to draw car lovers’ ire just two weeks before the vote by abolishing the much-beloved Brötchentaste on parking meters, which allowed drivers to park for free just long enough to hop into the bakery to grab some rolls.
Boosting public transport and electromobility are on the list of measures to reduce CO2 emissions, but lifestyle changes are proving to be a hard sell in Germany.’
Pity about NS – and all that lovely reasonably priced gas. Ah well!

Posted by: Don Firineach | May 16 2023 20:34 utc | 235

why would top EU leadership want to meet in Iceland?
Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 15:00 utc | 30
To update the provisions in their bomb shelters in New Zealand?
Posted by: Drapetomaniac | May 16 2023 19:26 utc | 196
Short answer because a Kinzhal (~2000 km max I think) from Kaliningrad can’t reach them in Iceland (~2800 km).

Posted by: Jerr | May 16 2023 20:40 utc | 236

The Moscow Times is based in Amsterdam since the beginning of the SMO. Western capital behind it, a western outlet, nothing more.

Posted by: Teraspol | May 16 2023 20:40 utc | 237

PavewayIV | May 16 2023 19:53 utc | 219–
Thanks for commenting!! IMO, Russia performed a “Gotcha” attack akin to William Tell splitting the apple atop his son’s head at 100 paces. As I intimated in an earlier comment, the Kiev strike was itself a decoy from all the other strikes made last night. For example, who was Johnny on the spot with the cam to film the attack. And we don’t know if the hits to the patriot installation came from its unprotected flanks or rear or how many other targets in the vicinity were hit. I know there’re BDA sat-images but nobody’s showing them. And the use of the patriots implies no more S-300s for greater Kiev.

Posted by: karlof1 | May 16 2023 20:40 utc | 238

sln2002@120
‘business as usual with Russian War Criminals’
One of the most successful pieces of narrative framing since RF’s entry into Ukraine is that of ‘unprovoked and illegal aggression’.
It is remarkable to me that Russia put together a sequence of moves in support of UN Chapter 51 justification for military action, but that Russia was never able (AFAIK) to so much as register it officially at the UNSC.
For Western liberals still able to recall a time when it was socially approved to dissent from US military activity, we have their recognition of the illegality of the invasion of Iraq, which now must FORCIBLY mean Russia’s incursion was also illegal.
As a piece of reasoning it’s some kind of weird ‘reverse whataboutism’ wherein one must not be seen to be holding Russia to a lower ethical standard than the US, when, from a legal perspective, RF’s actions in Ukraine have potentially far greater justification than the attacks on Iraq, Libya, or Yugoslavia.
Recent corruptions and intimidations of supposedly impartial international institutions — ICC, OSCE, OPCW, UN General Secretariat, PACE, UNHRC — make it extremely unlikely that Russia’s legal case for entering Ukraine would ever be fairly adjudicated.
I’m somewhat agnostic on the legality of Russia’s actions. I believe the bar to be met should be high.
On the other hand, in addition to the childish conclusion that whichever side crosses a border first is automatically committing a crime of aggression, we have a similarly simple-minded conflation of something like ethics or morality with law. In claiming to base ourselves on principles that we proclaim as universal, we fall prey to the idea that such laws are derived from universal justice.
Great powers do no obey international law because they are just (morality); they obey international law to the extent that life in compliance with these laws is on the whole preferable to violating them (pragmatism).
But when other great powers take advantage (in this case of their hegemony) and abrogate such laws when it suits them, and enforce compliance on others, when it suits them, then international law lacks both a moral and a pragmatic foundation. If we will not, for example, insist the application of sanctions not approved by the UNSC is illegal, and that the interference in the domestic affairs of sovereign states is also a violation of the UN Charter, then we cannot insist that international law in the area of armed conflict is in any moral or pragmatic sense supreme or incontestable.

Posted by: Paul Damascene | May 16 2023 20:41 utc | 239

Russia is clearly the aggressor here….look how close it put its borders to 800 U S overseas military bases. If Mexico let Russia base short range cruise missiles capable of special warheads on their soil a few minutes flight time from the white house I think the United States would probably recall it’s ambassador in protest…..it’s truly an upside down world… national socialists are streaming into the khazarian Jewish homeland…at the bequest of internationalist organizations run predominantly by Jews….to bolster a failed State manufactured by progressive liberal deviants and run ostensibly by a Jewish comedian with a drug problem and no fashion sense. Putin who is conservative nationalist is personified as evil yet inversely …his opposite who is a literally demented pedo is conveniently forgotten. The attack on the DU munition stockpile was with thermobaric warheads. Because these devices don’t need to provide their own oxidizers…a disproportionate amount of explosive power can be delivered as opposed to conventional warhead….I’m not sure if the incendiary effects would destroy aerosolized DU particles

Posted by: Jor | May 16 2023 20:41 utc | 240

Posted by: Mark2 | May 16 2023 20:30 utc | 238
I’ve only been using it a couple of days, but I recommend Zet’s browser extension for blocking the usual offenders. It make’s the threads quicker and less irritating to read. Just add those you need to filter out to the blacklist and ‘poof’, they’re gone.

Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 20:42 utc | 241

@ PavewayIV | May 16 2023 19:53 utc | 219
With utmost respect to your knowledge and analysis, please have a look at this video of Kinzhal system hitting shopping mall in Kiev last year and tell me how is that subsonic speed?
Kinzhal climbs, if fired from MIG-31 going Mach 2.3, from 20 km to around 80-110 km to accelerate to Mach 9-10.
It manoeuvres at random during the climbing phase, so no Kalman filter can defeat it.
When it gets to above the target, it dives vertically and manoeuvres in a vortices while diving. It is also sheathed in plasma that is confusing any radar.
Even new hot-shit GhostEye is not sure whether that is a missile or not and where it is going to be in a second or 5.
Kinzhal can release flares, decoy modules, etc. – as you wrote, not sure if it does it every time.
But it keeps its speed in the upper hypersonic range, probably around Mach 6-7+
Because Patriot’s projectile is around 3-4.1 Mach fast at the best optimum height and angle approach.
So its typical kinetic energy equals around 3-4 tones of TNT with 400 kg. warhead. Big boom.
As far as I know, they are building different versions with different warheads and penetrators.
Never mind all that, but why would one use a hypersonic system just to slow it down in a terminal phase?

Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 20:44 utc | 242

“Hmmmm
Not impressed with any of this thread.
Looks like a teenage ‘call of duty’ internet chat room.
And a crap one at that.
Posted by: Mark2 | May 16 2023 20:30 utc | 238”
Then why are you here?

Posted by: El Oso de Los Llanos | May 16 2023 20:48 utc | 243

As Shoigu says the Ukies (and their NATO masters) mistake the type of the missiles, so they don’t know what is the Kinzhal. Those, who had found out are all dead. I have a feeling that the Kinzhal disintegrates to such an extent after hitting a target, that the Ukies (and their NATO masters) had never found even its debris. So, it can be assumed that the Ukies don’t really know, if a Kinzhal had hit them, or it was something else.

Posted by: ostro | May 16 2023 20:52 utc | 244

Posted by: Drapetomaniac | May 16 2023 19:26 utc | 196
Short answer because a Kinzhal (~2000 km max I think) from Kaliningrad can’t reach them in Iceland (~2800 km).
Posted by: Jerr | May 16 2023 20:40 utc | 242:
.
.
That’s nonsense !
There are e.g. submarines that could do that…emphasis COULD!
There are certainly other possibilities, e.g. from the north, but the mere fact of doing it is probably more due to their (your) wishes and maybe the fear of the participants ??

Posted by: mo3.1 | May 16 2023 20:53 utc | 245

GT Stroller @ 247
Thanks for that advice, i’v been following your topic on this.
Not sure it’s for me thought.
Reality is my thing good or bad I need to see it warts an all. cheers.
————-
@ 249
See above.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 16 2023 21:00 utc | 246

PavewayIV | May 16 2023 20:28 utc | 237
The nato officers in a bunker I take with a dose of salt, but early on Russia hit a soviet bunker storing missiles. Reading Kinzal stats coming from Russia, and even what Putin has said leads me to believe there is a powered dive.
Those pesky Russians developed closed cycle rocket engines and just stuck them in a shed. Tack powered dive onto your very good description and it is a very much wham bam thank you ma’m type of missile.
But that is the thing that sticks with me, it has to have a powered dive.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 16 2023 21:01 utc | 247

Fake James at 252

Posted by: Mark2 | May 16 2023 21:04 utc | 248

Larry Johnson.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XYiJjMS0A8

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 16 2023 21:07 utc | 249

Reasonably sure the comment @238 is another case of handle hijacking.
Re: the latest wunderwaffen announcement/panicky threat to send in the Iron Dome, I think Theodore Postol estimated that it has, at best, a 33% successful interception rate against cottage industry ordnance from Gaza and south Lebanon. And since the Iron Dome is just a Patriot with extra bits stuck on, I’m not too sure how it will fare against Kalibrs.
Thanks again, b.

Posted by: robjira | May 16 2023 21:10 utc | 250

*** MISSING PERSONS BULLETIN ***

Authorities are concerned for the whereabouts of Valery Zaluzhny, who claims to be a general in the Ukraine armed forces. He has not been heard from for several days. The adults responsible for his care are trying to make sure he is safe and well. If anyone has any further information please advise.

Posted by: West of England Andy | May 16 2023 21:13 utc | 251

Only if general Igor Konashenkov says that Russia had launched a Kinzhal(s), we get to know about that. No one has ever seen a Kinzhal, either flying towards to a target or any Kinzhal “debris” from the explosion site. All those, who had seen a Kinzhal after its arriving are all dead.

Posted by: ostro | May 16 2023 21:14 utc | 252

@whirlX:
To keep it from being an easy IR target, also to allow the onboard guidance a clear view.

Posted by: Paradan | May 16 2023 21:20 utc | 253

Robjira @ 258
Thanks for your vigilantes,
But no that one is the real me.
Ignore, im a bit touchy today.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 16 2023 21:21 utc | 254

Dingo | May 16 2023 18:54 utc | 167
That one ☑️
karlof1 | May 16 2023 18:36 utc | 158
Musk.
*fundraiser* George Soros.
There aren’t enough 😂🤣emojis in the universe to respond to that.
>Fundraiser< OMFG US flag allegedly upside down/half mast. For 10 minutes? So can we see this as a 10-man Patriot team killed in Kiev?? 1m memorial per man? ? LightYearsFromHome | May 16 2023 19:02 utc | 174 The indiscriminate, “cowboy” firing of the Patriot, _ ans as some have noted _ reminiscent of Baghdad skies… has me convinced the Patriot system was operated by US personnel. IMVHO, the yanks wouldn’t trust ukies with their pride and joy, expensive toys. Operating the Patriot takes “American know-how”. The Patriot operators, of course, have zip, zero, nada, combat experience. They panicked and sprayed the sky in typical yeeeeehaaaaa! style. Also, see the comment re the brief half-mast flag. I read this as a loss of a crew of 10.

Posted by: Melaleuca | May 16 2023 21:22 utc | 255

West of England Andy | May 16 2023 21:13 utc | 259
He may have ingested some polonium or novichuk. The Brits back Zelensky and the Americans back Zaluzhny

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 16 2023 21:22 utc | 256

Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 20:44 utc | 248
The frame rate of the original milcam differs from the frame rate of the uploaded video, so it’s tough to tell, but I estimate that missile to be doing between Mach 2.5 and 3.5 when it strikes.

Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 21:24 utc | 257

It looks like Nikolaev, Odessa, Kiev and few other cities are getting hit right now…

Posted by: ostro | May 16 2023 21:24 utc | 258

What a dismal performance. They blew their entire wad(i counted 30+) and not a single hit. I suppose its an improvement on the saudi experience of firing them to protect their airport from hoothi missiles and the patriots missiles doing a u turn and hitting the airport they were there to defend. What a joke.

Posted by: RC213V | May 16 2023 21:27 utc | 259

I’ve only been using it a couple of days, but I recommend Zet’s browser extension for blocking the usual offenders. It make’s the threads quicker and less irritating to read. Just add those you need to filter out to the blacklist and ‘poof’, they’re gone.
Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 20:42 utc | 247
Those who use the Zet browser for blacklisting and whitelisting insults everyone else who participates on the MOA Blog. Insults them.
Blogs are for dialog not for narcissistic bigots who blacklist others and who think their opinions and time are more valuables than someone else’s. Nor are blogs forv sycophant psychos who whitelist people because the don’t have many if any original thoughts and must limit their exposure to a select few so as not to be challenged.
Do you think its funny to post, or post a reply to someone, and not have it even seen let alone even read, much less responded to? Or are you Zet Users just Elitists?
I’m of the opinion it’s o the latter. Why does this “b” guy allow software to groom Elitists on his blog?
The Zet developer made everything transparent but one thing, to have others on the MOA blog know who these ZET narcissists and sycophants are, so MOA bloggers can just ignore them. I would suggest that the ZET developer embedded do one more transpancy upgrade for his software so the word ZET USER will appear at the beginning of the user’s post.
Meanwhile, I request of all those who are using this ZET software, to begin each of their posts with the term, “ZET USER”, for transparency. Others on the blog know the type of individual they are dealing with.
GT so sorry to encumbered uour precious time, but then maybe I’m not.

Posted by: Jerr | May 16 2023 21:27 utc | 260

203, i damn well do demand an apology – not that there will ever be one – but the homophobic bigotry commonplace here is monstrous

Posted by: paul | May 16 2023 21:27 utc | 261

WhirlX 248 20:44
A “ton of TNT” is by defnition 4.18e9 joules.
So, using v_sound = 343 m/s, a mass of N tons moving at Mach M
has a kinetic energy of
(343 M)^2/2 * 1000 N /4.18e9 = 0.014 M^2 * N “tons of TNT”.
or for M = 7: 0.7 * N “tons of TNT”.
Hence, a 400 kg (0.4 ton) object would have a kinetic energy of
0.3 “tons of TNT” (not 3-4).
In fact, the kinetic energy applies to the whole rocket, not
just the payload.
Also, Paveway, did not claim that the rocket would be “subsonic”,
but “subhypersonic”.

Posted by: Cindy Martin | May 16 2023 21:34 utc | 262

Posted by: Jerr | May 16 2023 21:27 utc | 268
################
Having a bad day, friend? It’s ok. Happens to all of us.

Posted by: LoveDonbass | May 16 2023 21:34 utc | 263

Mark2 @262
Totally understandable; these are trying times. As Scott Ritter recently said, “if you love peace, then pray for a Russian victory.”

Posted by: robjira | May 16 2023 21:39 utc | 264

May 16 2023 21:27 utc | 269
admonishing sinners is not bigotry! it is a Christian act of mercy!

Posted by: paddy | May 16 2023 21:44 utc | 265

Paul @ 269
Were sick of hearing about ya weapon an what you do with it.
Get back in the closet.
————-
And the above can be directed at the USA ditto.
——
Oh and Zelensky (piano ref)

Posted by: Mark2 | May 16 2023 21:46 utc | 266

Posted by: RicK | May 16 2023 19:30 utc | 201
Often the decoys are ageing missiles that have been re-purposed, such as the AS-15 Kent (Kh-55) ALCM’s of 80’s vintage, that now have concrete warheads and radar reflectors, instead of the usual conventional/nuclear warhead. The advantage of using such vintage weapons is that Russia has approximately 6-800 of these systems that can be quickly modified for their new role of assisting the next-generation of weapons in striking their targets. The Western media, last Christmas, used these ageing missiles as proof of Russia’s depletion of her stocks, whilst acknowledging their use as probable decoys.

Posted by: Milites | May 16 2023 21:47 utc | 267

269 – that’s fine, buddy – you call your evil by the name of goodness – so does every demon

Posted by: paul | May 16 2023 21:48 utc | 268

West of England Andy | May 16 2023 21:13 utc | 259
I have come across this report a couple of times of General Valery Zaluzhny.
May 13, 2023
Zaluzhny said how long the Russian aggression against Ukraine will last
“In addition, we previously reported that the Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces is General Valery Zaluzny. Appeared at the wedding of a Ukrainian couple. At a time when Russian propaganda was spreading hoaxes about his death”.
https://newsday.ie/zaluzhny-said-how-long-the-russian-aggression-against-ukraine-will-last-tsn-ua/
Also today he is quoted in an article on RT:
16 May, 2023
Kremlin responds to Ukraine missile claims
“The commander-in-chief of the Ukrainian armed forces, General Valery Zaluzhny, later reported that 18 missiles had been fired by Russia, claiming that all of them had been intercepted by Kiev’s air defenses. Among them were six Kinzhal missiles, nine Kalibr cruise missiles, and three ground-launched Iskander ballistic missiles, the general said.”
https://www.rt.com/russia/576386-kremlin-peskov-kinzhal-missile-ukraine/

Posted by: Russo | May 16 2023 21:50 utc | 269

Posted by: Jerr | May 16 2023 21:27 utc | 268
Chill dude. I’m just blocking the obvious wind up merchants who have nothing informative to offer the forum. e.g.
Longhorn
Fnord73
Noam A. Larkey
And b has no power to disallow the use of browser extensions, so don’t beat on him about this. OK?

Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 21:51 utc | 270

@ GT Stroller | May 16 2023 21:24 utc | 265
Yes, it is difficult to judge, but it is not subsonic.
Assuming that the main shopping mall building is 10 stories high, so around 30 meters. Have look at around 1:49 – the plasma trail and a missile reflecting in the windows of the building. It is around 15-20 meters long, so minus 7.5 meters of the very missile, plasma trail must be around 10-12+ meters.
Plasma occurs at around Mach 5+ around the whole missile length and its graphite casing.
It gains around 25%-30% longer trail with every extra Mach or so gained.
So I assumed around Mach 7-8 with a questionable frame rate from Orlan drone.
But, I do not know for sure and possibly nobody knows.
Not subsonic impact velocity in any case.
I cannot imagine a single Patriot missile hit nowhere near this thing.
Maybe it is possible to defeat it in some other way, but just this year
they manage to get radar that can kind of see it, with a pinch of salt.
Like everything else.

Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 21:53 utc | 271

Satan is the ultimate liar – Russia has built its supposed alternative to Western evil on the rotten foundation of bigotry, echoed by many here.
No, what makes Zelensky bad isn’t that he once wore heels. It’s that he utterly and horribly betrayed the pro-peace basis of his overwhelming election.

Posted by: paul | May 16 2023 21:53 utc | 272

Why USNATO meet in Iceland?
(i) meeting Locations rotate and it’s Iceland’s turn to host?
(ii) Iceland is nice. It’s also remote. Only people hanging around will be those flown there (and vetted). Other locations have eyes and ears everywhere.
My 2c.
Doctor Eleven | May 16 2023 20:14 utc | 233
You obviously have no clue who PavewayIV is. If you’re going to argue with him, be sure you *really* know your subject…
Just another 2c.
Jerr | May 16 2023 21:27 utc | 268
Thanks for that. It’s usually West-of-England Andy who wins the thread for me with a laugh-out-loud comment. But yours wins today.🤡
[guess that proves I don’t use Zet’s plug-in…. That should assuage your apparent comment inferiority anxiety]
Zaluzhnyi is quoted as commenting on the downing of 27,000 kinzhals last night.
So supposedly he’s alive and therefore lying.

Posted by: Melaleuca | May 16 2023 21:56 utc | 273

When Satan convinces us to hate Zelensky for cross dressing, or to hate the West for trannies, Satan has truly won.

Posted by: paul | May 16 2023 21:57 utc | 274

Posted by: Paul Damascene | May 16 2023 14:04 utc | 2
Tbe latest I’ve seen says 1st 4 gerans flushed out the radar. Then they hit the radar & command & control. Last 2 strikes took out the Patriot system(s).
Also tbe patriot might not have been defending itself, but someone emptying it to prevent strike from detonating it on the ground.

Posted by: Mary | May 16 2023 22:01 utc | 275

Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 21:53 utc | 281
I think what you’re seeing as a plasma trail may be at least partly a ‘rolling shutter’ effect of the camera sensor readout. It’s tricky to guage the velocity, but I don’t think it’s as high as mach 5. Let’s go with supersonic, but sub hypersonic for now.

Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 22:02 utc | 276

Melaleuca | May 16 2023 21:56 utc | 283 “[guess that proves I don’t use Zet’s plug-in…. That should assuage your apparent comment inferiority anxiety]”
…comment inferiority anxiety. That one takes it Melaleuca. Keep on keeping on.

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 16 2023 22:04 utc | 277

Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | May 16 2023 19:30 utc | 203
Seconded. As soon as the word “faggot” turns up in a comment, I stop reading. Just like when somebody ominously refers to “the tribe”, “the Khazars” or, rarely, “the Jews”. Granted, some of these commenters wish to bring the site in disrepute.
Also paul about Zelensky: Yes. Cross-dressing etc. in front of an adult audience is not the problem. At all.

Posted by: Cherrycoke | May 16 2023 22:07 utc | 278

@Posted by: LightYearsFromHome | May 16 2023 19:14 utc | 184
The west doesn’t have anything better. Their anti-air is overall just stone age garbage like most of their military hardware. Might as well be the old lady throwing pickle jars of Ukrainian legend.

Posted by: FVK | May 16 2023 22:12 utc | 279

@ Cindy Martin | May 16 2023 21:34 utc | 270
What is subhypersonic?
It can be subsonic, supersonic, or hypersonic.
From the web:
“If it strikes with a mass of 2,000 kg (4,400 lb), including 500 kg warhead, and at a speed of Mach 12, the Kinzhal has more than 16.9 gigajoules of kinetic energy excluding detonation, the equivalent of 4,000 kg of TNT.”

Posted by: whirlX | May 16 2023 22:15 utc | 280

We had a saying in the Corps…”We’ve been shot at and missed, shit at and hit.” Corporal Biden and his ilk won’t be happy till the US lies in a smoking heap.

Posted by: bingofuel | May 16 2023 22:16 utc | 281

@Posted by: Biswapriya Purkayast | May 16 2023 19:30 utc | 203
Get GRIDS and die, loser. Nobody will ever respect you.

Posted by: FVK | May 16 2023 22:16 utc | 282

American freedumb fighters. A never ending line of cannon fodder. Yakuza…
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-17/former-japanese-yakuza-criminal-joins-foreign-legion-in-ukraine/102276660

Posted by: Peter AU1 | May 16 2023 22:16 utc | 283

I’v got a very good gut instinct, allways have had.
It’s telling me now —-
This conflict is at a pivotal momment right now.
We had the Kremlin drone attack before the victory parade (what an insult and provocation.
Bakamut is just about wrapped up.
(Some said losing that ment Ukraine losing the conflict)
Putin is now moving attention West, it appeared to me.
Q. How far West, I wonder.
Am waiting for the secound boot to drop.
Silence is what I here from Russia and the west.
I wonder is this tunnel vision thread. Part of the distraction.
Bellingcat commentators ?
No reflection on b intended or implied. Respect.

Posted by: Mark2 | May 16 2023 22:18 utc | 284

ZET USERS et al RE 268
Apologies for the little fit of temper @268.
A few cleansing breaths and I’m now again aniexity free.

Posted by: Jerr | May 16 2023 22:19 utc | 285

@Posted by: Marvin | May 16 2023 19:42 utc | 209
The Ukraine did not have any “spectacular wins,” so the basis of your post is just bunk.

Posted by: FVK | May 16 2023 22:20 utc | 286

Posted by: ian | May 16 2023 22:21 utc | 287

Posted by: Jerr | May 16 2023 21:27 utc | 268
I don’t use the extension, but I feel very comfortable in saying that you can blacklist any triple parentheses user and miss precious little of value.

Posted by: YarrEcks | May 16 2023 22:21 utc | 288

Hmmm, is this a case of wishful people over-reaching? Talks with African nations would more likely be about a grain deal than a peace deal between Russia and the Ukraine I’d have thought.
“Asked to comment on reports that Zelenskyy and Putin may have agreed to six party talks with African leaders to hammer out a peace deal, Kirby said that Zelenskyy would have to agree to any peace deal for the US to back it. EMBEDDED VIDEO
https://twitter.com/simonateba/status/1658545052589735936

Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 22:23 utc | 289

Posted by: Jerr | May 16 2023 22:19 utc | 296
No problem.
Mine’s a pint.

Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 22:25 utc | 290

Hmmm, is this a case of wishful people over-reaching? Talks with African nations would more likely be about a grain deal than a peace deal between Russia and the Ukraine I’d have thought.
“Asked to comment on reports that Zelenskyy and Putin may have agreed to six party talks with African leaders to hammer out a peace deal, Kirby said that Zelenskyy would have to agree to any peace deal for the US to back it.” EMBEDDED VIDEO
https://twitter.com/simonateba/status/1658545052589735936

Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 22:28 utc | 291

I don’t see how anyone can look at Patriot missiles firing at that rate, in varied directions, without concluding that something is seriously wrong. Some years ago in San Diego, there was a computer glitch on the 4th of July that caused a half hours worth of fireworks to be launched in 30 sec. This reminded me a bit of that.
Posted by: ian | May 16 2023 22:21 utc | 298
I have not seen the video. However; it might be consistent with multiple Patriot missiles being launched in response to a time on target salvo of multiple missiles from divergent vectors. Since Patriot launchers must be set up oriented in specific directions, such a salvo might evade the defensive missiles that otherwise MIGHT have been effective. Of course if a missile defense system is subjected to a sufficiently large salvo that exhausts the missiles in the launchers, the system becomes defenseless.

Posted by: Elmer Fudd | May 16 2023 22:42 utc | 292

Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 22:42 utc | 304
According to Alex, Sullivan has been veering off piste recently, perhaps a little jog for him.

Posted by: Oh | May 16 2023 22:46 utc | 293

304 is not posted by me

Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 22:47 utc | 294

Russia burns another American asset.
https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/us-condemns-arrest-of-former-us-consulate-employee-in-russia

Posted by: Mark | May 16 2023 22:47 utc | 295

Konashenkov says it *was* a kinzhal that kaput the Patriot in Kiev.
https://twitter.com/Spriter99880/status/1658587183312150529

Posted by: Melaleuca | May 16 2023 22:52 utc | 296

Heh, it looks like one of the trolls I mentioned is upset about being blacklisted then.
Sucks to be you.

Posted by: GT Stroller | May 16 2023 22:52 utc | 297

Some biggies are inbound again.
“Cruise missiles and tactical aviation working at the same time. Russia means seriously with this attack”
https://tgstat.com/channel/@Slavyangrad

Posted by: Derek Henry | May 16 2023 22:52 utc | 298

Could it be possible that some deal was made giving Ukraine free retreat and some face-saving wins in return for giving up Bakmuth?
Posted by: Marvin | May 16 2023 19:42 utc | 209
No.

Posted by: The Dolphin | May 16 2023 22:54 utc | 299

it might be consistent with multiple Patriot missiles being launched in response to a time on target salvo of multiple missiles from divergent vectors.

A certain u-tubes commentator thinks the ukronazis realized they was targeted and had to unload all the missiles b4 a hit destroyed everthing/every civilian in surrounding area.

Posted by: Drinky Crow | May 16 2023 22:56 utc | 300

Back to Main